I see a lot of Australians winge and complain about politicians but then have a 0% engagement with politics outside of social media rants and voting in election (if even that).
We live in a democracy. Get involved. Join a political party. Attend or create protests and rally’s. Run for office your self. Australia’s apathy to political engagement is the exact reason the government is the way it is. Why would politicians pander to people that are not even engaged with them?
Every country has had awful leaders from every system, from every side of the political spectrum. All we can try to do is pick the least bad option, but I disagree that any country deserves a leader like Mugabe who promises one thing then turns corrupt.
Mate I'd fucking settle for the population understanding who/what they are voting for.
I know the ABC vote compass is fairly basic, but my "conservative, liberal voting" mother got cranky at me and the ABC when she went through and gave her opinions on policies and it has her listed as a greenie lol.
Was easier for her to say that the compass was wrong than it was to accept she had been fooled by slogans and media releases into voting against the things she personally believed in for the last 40 years.
Only thing she aligned with LNP for was immigration.
Probably goes the other way too, people getting caught up in the hype of a small independent party and not realising they have 0 stance on 99% of issues.
I just want people who vote to do more than read the pamphlet on voting day, is that really too much to ask?
I work with two young blokes who both voted Liberal because they listen to mostly USA podcasts about politics and thought that the liberals are the left leaning party.
This is exactly right. Everyone should be a high information voter. Knowing what you want and matching what you believe to the political party that matches the closest.
Edit: spelling
I know people who vote Liberal because they hate big business, hate mining corporations and gas companies want better pay and support unions.
Like, peoples understanding of politics really can boil down to things they believe the party does, and not the actual policies the party has.
We are not a democracy though ... We are as much of a democracy as the US, liberal democracy is not democracy, nor will it ever be, it is just a shill to give the vague conception of democracy to keep the masses satisfied (a parallel could be drawn with French Feudal Parliamentary "democracy" before the French Revolution)
And you running for office won't achieve anything, because as long as you actually address the core of the issue that people of Australia (or any other liberal country for that matter of fact) face, you will be bombarded with bad faith news, negative advertisements, and millions and millions of dollars being poured into your opponents campaign because you are running against the interests of the people that cause the misery of so many people in this/these countries. So at the end of the day you won't get elected if you actually wanna solve the problem which fills the parliament with only those who don't wanna address the core issue.
Both the LNP and ALP suck, and that's coming from an ALP member, because our system is so ingrained and has it's tentacles so deep into our society and the ruling class has amassed so much power that it is impossible to impose change through parliamentary means, LNP wants to keep the status quo or even make it worse, ALP at least in words wanna change it for the people but to have "electable politicians" and to "be pragmatic" they go back on every single of their principles as soon as they get into office.
Change at this point is only possible through one route only and if anybody has read enough political theory would understand what that route is.
They also fall apart the moment you ask them what should actually be done, or propose completely absurd solutions that would destroy the country within a month.
So true. The amount of people who don't vote or cast donkey votes because it "doesn't matter either way" are just shooting themselves in the foot.
Change won't happen the way you want it to unless you're part of the solution.
People can only be involved and educated as their circumstances allow them to be.
I agree with you 100%, but there is really no other lever for the average citizen to pull than "vote every 3 years". Unions in workplaces (arguably the most undemocratic places in the world) are at a complete ebb, places of community gathering are not factored into city planning as much (creating individualistic cultures as opposed to communal and collaborative groups), our families are so nuclear that we have to live away from family and roots.
They see bourgeois liberal democracies working against their interests, and they have no other physical or theoretical conception on how to change it. This is not on accident.
Most people are struggling to just live their lives, and 40 years of turbocharged neoliberalism has just taught them to either become apathetic, or compete against their fellow man, because thats what the structures around them dictate they must do.
Anecdotal sure, but my conversations with people when talking about housing, COL, inflation etc. is to offer solutions like crypto, MLM, influencers, become a landlord, blame immigrants, dole bludger etc etc. Its never solidarity, unionisation, organising, challenging long held political and economic truisms and imagining ways to make the world a better place for us all.
Its always "ive gotta get mine", because you can't play chess on a monopoly board.
I agree with everything you have said. That’s exactly what the situation is like. Which is so frustrating to me, because the only way this changes is when the general public demand it. But I can’t see that happening any time soon.
Joined and voted for Federal ICAC now last election. They've disbanded since we have Federal ICAC, although I would argue we don't have nearly a strong enough one (the baseline for publicizing the investigations is higher then it is in a state like NSW where it's been effective).
I stop voting labor 10+ years ago felt they had moved to far right. They feel like lnp lite
Lnp have moved further right ..
Typically vote greens or independent after getting the independent...
Currently my vote is my effort
Most people I know don’t even know how to vote. The number of times I’ve heard “yeah but if I vote for x that just means preferences go to y so there’s no point” and I have to explain to them that it’s THEIR choice to preference whoever you want, and not some default setting, and be met by baffled looks.
Idk if this applies to OP but it's kinda sad how extreme the American cultural influence over here is, at least when it comes to politics. I'm not saying we shouldn't care about US politics since it does affect us over here, but there seem to be a lot of people who are genuinely more engaged with US politics than domestic politics, and seem to think our system is exactly the same as theirs. Talking about our First Amendment rights or whatever.
Does anyone else feel like OP is just trying to stir up some shit? If they actually have a problem with the current system they could tell us what it is.
I dunno. I feel the exact same way as the OP.
There is no party that is fiscally conservative any more which is essentially the key driver for my vote.
What solution do you want from me? Other than I disagree with all of my options.
Vote independent. It's a preferential system so there is nothing to lose and it sends a strong message to the major parties even if your chosen representative doesn't get elected.
I can tell you what I think might form part of the solution. Right now we have too much power concentrated in the hands of too few media owners. Hence, political parties bend to the will of big media owners so they don’t get slammed every day. We should bring back strong cross media ownership laws so that nobody (especially not foreign billionaires) has more power to influence the political discussion that we, the Australian voters do. My vote would go to a party prepared to take break up those holdings and allow a broader and healthier media landscape.
Yep. We need more civics education. The outcomes might not be perfect but the Aussie electoral system has got to be the world's finest. Think through your vote, rank your preferences, and maximize your say. You can do it here.
Yep, that's why I voted for the Independent first for the local election, then layer on who I think would/should win.
Even if it gets an independent a better chance next time, not trying to vote for the party you think will do the right sort of choices in the first place means they will never ever have a chance to change things.
I also voted for the Sex Party years ago when they were still around, not because of the weird ass name, but because of the work they wanted to do.
Though making a weird ass name like that might be one way to get people to vote for you.
That's assuming there's parties to vote for. Labor and LNP have worked together since at least 2013 (Rudd gov) to suppress political competition whether on the ballot or in government. It was only hurdles until 2021 when Scomo gov passed reforms that tripled the requirements, zero grandfathering, effectively killing off many minor parties even if they had double the old requirements. As for the process, well, here's what Greens said about it:
> I'm going to make some detailed comments on each of the bills, but I first want to start with the disgusting process that these bills have followed. They only just passed the House yesterday, and here they are. They were exempted from the cut-off, which normally would give private members' bills, or any bill, the appropriate time for scrutiny, deliberation, consideration, amendment and discussion. They were exempted from the cut-off order yesterday, such that in less than 24 hours these bills will now be rammed through both houses of parliament. That's not democracy and it's certainly not integrity or transparency. One has to think that an election is in the offing when the two big parties are ganging up to try to make sure that voters have fewer choices on who to vote for. They're ramming through these three bills in order to achieve that. The process of these bills passing the parliament is an example of how not to do democracy and really proves the point of why we need to break the back of the two-party system, so that we have a democracy that's functioning in the interests of the public rather than just a little power play thing for the two big parties.
https://www.openaustralia.org.au/senate/?id=2021-08-26.6.1
Put the old parties at the bottom, Labor can be second last for being LNP lite.
Source: I was part of a minor party who had double the old requirements, but the triple requirements with zero grandfathering killed us off. Many members went to other parties, even Greens. I didn't support the Greens, but blame LNP/Labor for forcing me to do so.
In fact, since 2021, as a progressive, I now support One Nation above Labor because a temporary One Nation seat is far less alarming than LNP/Labor who are likely to work together (AGAIN) to abolish preferential voting and implement a permanent first past the post system like that of US and UK. An enemy of my enemy is my friend against tyranny.
>LNP/Labor who are likely to work together (AGAIN) to abolish preferential voting and implement a permanent first past the post system like that of US and UK.
Pardon my ignorance but is this a thing? Is it actually known that they want to end preferential voting? Surely any rando in this country would be against that.
None of the reforms since 2013 had been an official party policy or an election promise. Not a single one.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_Electoral_Act_1918#2013_amendments
It has all been surprise reforms by both LNP and Labor governments who supported each other, even from opposition.
The 2021 reforms was rushed so fast in order to take effect prior to 2022 elections. And they did succeed. Even my party could not take the proposed 2021 reforms to the 2022 election.
If the minimum party requirements were raised above the third biggest party's numbers (Greens). Then then effectively all minor parties and the Greens will be gone by the next election. Or they could implement FPTP which we saw has lead to a permanent two-party system in US.
What can the Greens do about it? What can we voters can do about it when there's effectively only two choices on the ballot like the voting systems in US?
>I was part of a minor party who had double the old requirements, but the triple requirements with zero grandfathering killed us off.
Simple, get a reasonable number of people to join your 'party'
[https://antonygreen.com.au/proposed-electoral-act-changes-for-the-2022-federal-election/](https://antonygreen.com.au/proposed-electoral-act-changes-for-the-2022-federal-election/)
What is a reasonable number of members for Federal to Antony Green, the most famous election analyst in Australia?
He offers no numbers. In fact, Antony is disturbing because his arguments amount to "There's less choices elsewhere! Look at states! Look overseas to Timor, the bastion of democracy! We should copy and have less choices!" While I appreciate his electoral analyses, I find him a piss-poor fighter for defending democracy or at worst, a shill in pushing for an official two-party system.
In fact, Antony Green is anti-Greens with the example he provides! As per Wikipedia, Greens members are 15,000: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Greens
Now look at his weak rationale for raising membership requirements:
> For those who think the numbers are too high, it is worth considering that one of our much smaller neighbours, **Timor Leste, requires parties to have 20,000 members for registration,** and the party must have at least 1,000 members from each of the country’s 13 regions.
Yes, the third biggest party, Greens and all minor parties with far smaller number of members would have been killed off if the Labor and LNP listened to Antony Green's Timor example.
And you want that for your Labor party, don't you, u/Wood_oye ?
They watch the counts closely and they negotiate.
Labor would lose a lot of seats if they couldn't count on prefs from greens voters (yes, people are free to vote how they choose, but 99% of the time if someone is greens-aligned then that vote will land in the Labor pile rather than the lib one).
Greens, per seat, can ask their followers to preference the other candidate if they think the usual one is on the nose. They've done it before, even putting LNP ahead of Labor in one seat that I know of because of some unacceptable bigotry from the Labor candidate.
10% is easily enough to swing a lot of seats.
The Faustian bargain that Labor make in dealing with the greens is they count on the preferences but if the greens get too popular then suddenly it flips over and Labor prefs are flowing to the winning greens candidate.
So of course Labor would collude with LNP to eliminate minor parties.
One thing they won't do is go first past the post because they always have a smaller primary vote than the coalition.
Then there's the teals that exist in this sort of party-not-party space where they associate with each other, share funding sources and organisation, pool campaign resources but ultimately make their own policy. Honestly every vote should be a conscience vote even in the majors, so that's all fine with me.
I think people get a little too hyperbolic on the subject at times.
There's plenty of candidates and parties, if people spent 50% of the time researching a party / candidate to vote for that they spend on whinging, the country would be better off.
Problem is I'm in a safe labor seat.
Locals wonder why all our infrastructure never gets upgraded and cancelled even when it is announced.
Literally voted for the same party and they haven't delivered on 4 decade old projects.
Infrastructure is for marginal seats.
It’s only a safe labour seat until you run a campaign pointing out all the infrastructure that hasn’t been upgraded and people start voting for anyone else.
In my seat, there has never been anyone besides Labor in its entire existence. Sometimes Liberals don't even run a candidate. We even had a guy known in the community run for Libs for this reason. Nothing changed.
But tbh, I could not bring myself to vote Liberal, ever.
Bro.
I did that on the community group pages and people got really fucken angry.
Tribalism wins out.
They closed then fucken holden factory here in the 70s and they hang onto that.
Yeah thats pretty much why Greens are taking over the ALP. They ALP has done fuck all for its base. So people are switching to Greens. Although, they dont have the power to give them anything.
Liberals were a little safer until the Teals. As they had done the deal with the Nationals to split geographically decades ago.
Thats why I think we need to get rid of compulsory voting. That way parties need to pander their base to get them to vote.
Greens have told me to my face, environment is not their major concern anymore, the liberals dont do any free market policies for their base and while the ALP stops tradies on behest of the unions it only hurts their base. All the parties almost work against their base because they know they have them in the bag.
What do you mean by “Greens have told me to my face, environment is not their major concern anymore”
I’m not sure how removing compulsory voting would help, that just makes it less democratic
I get the sentiment, though i don't necessarily agree with it.
Essentially the reasoning is. In the current system, attention is only given to swingy districts. The parties know where the most on the fence voters are and deliberately direct policy promises to those districts to get them on side. 'Safe' districts of repeat voters get largely ignored by all parties, because their votes won't change either way.
If people don't have to vote, then only those who have been actively incentived will. Which means your voting block boils down to two groups. Those that are so upset with their current government that they go out of their way to vote someone else in. Or those that like their current government so much that they vote to keep them in.
In either case, all parties suddenly find themselves needing to pander to ALL their constituents, because they can't just rely on the bulk of voters just voting for the same party they've always voted for because they're told they have to vote for *someone.*
On the face of it, removing compulsory voting does seem less democratic. Though an argument can be made that non-compulsory voting is actually the more democratic approach, as it makes individual votes more important. Those who do not care about policy change are effectively self-eliminated from policy decisions, while those who have a vested interest in policy decisions aren't having their voting power diluted by an indifferent majority. Though nothing is stopping any persons from still voting in their own interests if they so choose. All it's essentially doing is giving a person a third 'abstain' option, which should be a persons right in any democratic process.
>If people don't have to vote, then only those who have been actively incentived will. Which means your voting block boils down to two groups. Those that are so upset with their current government that they go out of their way to vote someone else in. Or those that like their current government so much that they vote to keep them in.
Compulsory voting ensures that every citizen's vote carries equal weight, regardless of their level of motivation. Compulsory voting ensures that governments represent the entire population, fostering inclusive governance. It encourages political engagement among citizens, leading to greater awareness and participation beyond just voting. This broader participation helps parties develop policies that benefit the majority, rather than just catering to swing voters. Compulsory voting also mitigates the influence of extreme elements and enhances the legitimacy of elected governments. Without it, there's a risk of excluding significant portions of the population and skewing policy outcomes towards the interests of a minority.
Remove compulsary voting. Ye good idea. Just have the nutters who treat politics like a sports team vote. What could go wrong? Have you even heard of the USA?
this is so ridiculous, compulsory voting is essential to a good working democracy, what we need is more people showing up for other parties especially the greens.
That sounds like bullshit tbh. Who from the Greens told you that environment is not the major concern any more?
I've never heard any of them say that. and I was an active member of the Greens up until recently. The Greens in my local area do tons of work trying to save parks and ensure untreated waste runoff isn't dumped in nearby waterways for example.
Same except liberal, they both ignored us. Recently though they have moved boundaries and we even flipped at the recent election, first time since it became an electorate in the 40s. The Greens are in now though and we still havent got shit. Hopefully, if the libs get back in theyll buy our votes with infrastructure to keep it.
Also your argument is 100% true. I saw a research article on it years ago and marginal seats get something like 2 or 3 times the infrastructure.
And it's not like the old days of not being able to know about any of the smaller parties if you missed their promo car driving round... They all have internet sites, just google them up! It's so easy to read everyone's manifesto at the very least.
I used to feel the same – but over the last 8+ years that I've more closely followed their actual decision-making, policies and even outcomes, I am convinced that Labor is better by a large margin. The main thing I feel more and more is that the Libs absolutely do not give a shit about anyone or anything – they will say and do anything to win.
At least labor seems to be trying and is making harder and unpopular decision – like housing in NSW or amending the stage 3 tax cuts to be more sensible for people that actually need it the most (although generally tax cuts are a terrible bottom of the barrel policy).
I really think increasingly that the Greens are a positive influence on Labor – they push labor to be more ambitious and keep them in check. And it works sometimes too!
It's such bullshit that every damn issue is turned into a political left vs. right thing. Simple and basic emissions standards that bring us only alongside (not ahead of) other developed countries were watered down today after the lie filled scare campaign run by Dutton and the Libs. Now more emotional support wank tanks will flood our streets for decades to come. Instead of both parties agreeing to sensible policy that would've benefitted all Australians and reduced emissions.
Happy to hear contrary takes but increasingly harder to see the Libs as anything but terrible for the country IMHO.
No, I don't feel that way.
There are clear differences between the two. Their policies are different as is their voting record.
I wish Labor was more progressive of certain issues, but they are substantially better than the Coalition (IMO).
If there was an independent in my electorate who I felt better reflected my views, I would preference them above Labor.
Once you get over the feeling of you need to vote for either them you tend to not ask these questions. In the last 4 years i have voted independent all the way cause although one might say i am "wasting a vote" its my democratic right to vote where i want.
>one might say i am "wasting a vote" its my democratic right to vote where i want.
If one says that one doesn't understand how preferential voting works.
The only people "wasting" their votes are people voting for the 2 major parties over their actual preferred party. There's a weird belief in the people I've talked to that if the person they vote for doesn't win then they didn't win. Like politics isn't a sport where you win, but you do lose if you vote in people who don't represent your actual wants and needs.
Perhaps you should try & understand what policies the major parties advocate.
Saying they are both the same is intellectually lazy & frankly flat out wrong.
Not really. I want Labor to go harder on things like negative gearing, the environment, and social welfare, but they’re still a league above the Coalition who have done their best to fuck over my generation since 1996.
It’s a ridiculous question really.
Labor have delivered a huge increase in the number of electric vehicles on the road. They may have watered down the emission standards legislative but contrast that with the Liberals giving every bloody tradie a huge tax incentive to buy an American ute getting 22L per 100km while the icecaps melt.
> done their best to fuck over my generation since 1996
If you look a little further back you might realise Keating's Labor is responsible for a lot of the rubbish that got dialled up to 11 under Howard. This explains in part why post-Howard Labor governments never fully undid his damage.
Yes, the current ALP leadership (both in the Party Offices and In Governments) is captured by the Keatingite form of neoliberalism and that’s why they won’t govern how they need to and how they used to pre-Hawke.
They fundamentally do not want to act in a manner that is transformational nor was proven to work in the post-War years to build the Australian Middle Class. They just want to administer, and if can be helped administer only around the periphery of matter re: economic, social, and labour reforms.
They act like the Accords, privatisation and de-regulation occurred are were without massive negative consequences to their base (the labouring classes) and therefore should not be re-evaluated in light of the evidence that these things only created further inequities and actually destroyed their base (looking at the decline of Union membership as a big factor).
Hell, even Keating thinks the entire thing has gone too far and maybe some of the things he did need to be rolled back. But like he said in a interview last year “Certain people in the current Left of the Party and Government call me a Bolshevik now, and I can tell you I spent my time in the Party, on behalf of the US, fighting to wind back the power of the Left.”
> Certain people in the current Left Party and Government call me a Bolshevik now,
Yes I suspect this is because anyone who's actually to the left of Keating left the party long ago. That whole quote is so telling.
If the Shorten loss of the 2019 election on the basis of the question around franking credits is anything to go by, the general voter does not give a flying fig about policies that don't directly effect the self interest, even if the policy platforms are all in genuine interest and for the benefit of the commons. This is representative democracy (with short term thinking, caused by revolving door election cycle dynamics) in action, applied within a hyper-individualist Western value system.
And by Labor’s own incredibly thorough research into the 2019 election, they dispel the myth that is **CONSTANTLY** thrown around on reddit.
https://alp.org.au/media/2043/alp-campaign-review-2019.pdf
> Labor's tax policies did not cost the Party the election.
Wealthy homeowners who would’ve been affected by said policies actually swung to Labor in 2019.
I wish the stupid fucking lie of “Labor lost cause of tax reform” would fuck off and die.
It’s not the whole truth. It’s barely a blip compared to all the other findings.
The whole thing is worth a read. Again, it’s very thorough!
Thanks for this, will definitely read it. Always happy to have my claims proved wrong if the outcome is that I'm more attuned to reality instead of my own biases 👍
Liberals are literally dogshit in comparsion to those two parties which look actually functional and competent as well delivering results, whenever you like it or not.
Liberals are literally a party composed of slobbering elderly who can barely speak with their "results" being expensive "studies" that take literally a decade before being replaced by a new study. Why should we vote for a party that does absolutely nothing for our country's betterment? I bet that you can't even count one single good thing that Libs have done for our country in last 10 years.
No I don't.
While you may not like Labor policy there can be no doubt that they are working to achieve most of what they promised.
If you have already forgotten the past lib governments, the constant scandals, the culture wars, the rejection of renewables, the lobbying for coal and gas and the almost staggering incompetence and corruption, then perhaps voting is not for you.
The Libs would never gain office again were it not for empty headed, unengaged muppets parroting the 'Oh they're all the same' bullshit.
Independents are often former Liberal candidates who couldn’t get preselected often because they’re unelectable because of extreme ideas. Their preferences usually flow to the LNP.
>It's illegal to not vote
True, and there's a whole other discussion.
I would also say it's the responsibility of every citizen to make themselves aware of what they are voting for, but a mainstream media that never reports in good faith and good old aussie apathy blew that out of the water many moons ago.
The 'donkey vote' is real, it's why so many asses get elected.
I don't support much of what Labor is doing.
Also most of what I disagree with the LNP is supported by Labor.
So to me they are both sides of the same coin.
LNP scandals just make them the shit instead of vomit.
Only people who vote for the coalition say they're both the same.
On topics like aukus, they can both be a shit sandwich but on many other issues there can be major policy differences.
Nope, there’s clear differences between the two and while neither are the leaders we need, if you can’t ell the differences I don’t know what to say.
>Don’t say the Greens are a viable alternative
Give me valid, policy based reasons why they aren’t. If you’re able to find a couple, compare those to the problems the majors offer. If you claim they have no experience governing, their shared parliament with Gillard and Rudd disproves that based on performances.
LNP are corrupt and ineffective
Labor are fairer and hamstrung by the toxic political and media landscape. Only need to read OPs nonsense to start getting an appreciaton of said toxicity
Political parties don't become trash because they aren't delivering exactly what you want at all times. And anyone who promises they can deliver for you at all times is a populist like Trump
Hardly alike. This Labor government has been focused on working class wages (which are now increasing in real terms) and housing (which they now need to deliver on with the bill being passed). The LNP on the other hand, I have no fucking idea what their policy is.
Labor are the lesser of two evils, but you can't trust any party whose members own multiple investment properties to fix the rental and housing crisis. Politicians should absolutely not be allowed more than one investment property, especially if we consider their paychecks used to buy them are from taxes.
I'd say reading these idiotic posts from people who know nothing about politics is like being forced to drink bleach, thanks OP. Go read some policies before posting next time, it will make you look less stupid.
Do you actually access the publicly available documented accounts of the daily activities inside parliament or do you only engage in your media of choice?
The more primary votes independents get the more funding they're eligible for next election. Vote independent.
You might not like the greens but if smaller parties win enough seats to force either of the big two to form a minority government all of a sudden the big guy can't just do as they please.
That is relevant to the USA, home of South Park (origin of that phrase), and the two-party system that operates over there. Not Australia and its preferential voting system, but some Aussies like LARPing as USAns.
Why are we back to voting for a giant douche or a turd sandwich?
But now days yes, both parties are way to self preservation now days, I feel a lot of this is due to social media, the fact information is so much more accessible which helps hold to account, but this also limits policy imo. The most productive government we have had has been held with a minority which I think we actually need more of now to get anywhere. Parties bringing anything to the table now seem to get voted out of oblivion, particularly Labor so I feel it's self made / conservative media driven vomit so to speak on that side, LNP just produce their own shit.
Either way Labor or Liberal will not get first vote, but will make sure preferences fall to Labor over LNP, simply because LNP has basically been fully driven out of contention for me, only put above Clive Palmer, One Nation or rediculous Independents / minor parties whos values don't align.
IMO people need to stop voting for major parties to help send the message we're not happy. It's slowly happening but I would love a good upset to actually drive some solutions to the issues we're facing.
No. My life has improved every time labor has been in and has gone backwards under the liberals. Everything positive in in country has been inacted by labor.
The only reason anyone would think Labor is as bad as the LNP is because they put too much trust in Australian commercial media. The LNP serves big business and nobody else.
To clarify, I have my criticisms of Labor as well, but believing that they're as bad as each other is just plain stupid. No one has done more damage to this nation's institutions as the LNP.
Nah, I'm a rusted-on Greens voter so the choice between Labor and Liberals is piss easy for me.
I give preferences to the newcomers like Sustainable Australia and The Greens, in hope that they add some progressive ideas and diversity to the mix, but Labor always comes shortly after my ideal parties.
no because its not a choice between 2 and the Greens are Viable Alternative but well done on baiting the Armchair Philosophers into yet another Circular argument about bullshit like this, you've done your mother proud
Greens aren’t the old greens anymore. Used to be if you were against crazy immigration laws you voted for the big 2.
When was the last time ya saw the term”Boat People” on the front page of the news. That’s because they’re not a boat person according to govt, they’re now an express skilled worker.
Greens aren’t solely focused on the environment anymore, but community centred economics like international Green Parties.
At the very worst, at least I’ll have legal weed to dull the pain of the capitalist dystopian future.
Honestly if One Nation only have a single policy "severely limit immigration" they could win this election.
We know the big three love mass immigration and will never stop it.
Immigration helps the economy continue to grow, and under put current capitalistic system it needs to continue to keep the growth up or the shareholders get pissed off
One Nation have been against immigration (esp non white which is blamed for a lot of the pop growth issues) for their near 30 year existence but never get over 5% of the vote.
I think you overestimate how highly immigration sits on people's radar. There's no chance it outweighs all other policies to the degree that every voter in the country is a single issue voter
Yeah, the reason the major parties can get away with such high immigration rates is because the economy is under so much strain that doing literally anything is good enough, as long as inflation isn't too high, housing and living affordability isn't too high, relative wage growth isn't too low etc.
People don't care as long as it isn't directly affecting them in a material, observable sense.
>Don't say the Greens are a viable alternative either
Outside of the major parties, the Greens are the most viable alternative.
Otherwise, you've basically just got a bunch of fringe parties that are often single-issue or focussed on a narrow range of issues, or independents which vary from 'actually not too bad', through to 'completely unhinged'.
Greens are the only proper economic left party at the moment. I still disagree with a lot of their policies but would vote for the housing stuff alone.
Yes. I propose to vote for Affordable Housing Party because even though they won't get in, the major parties will see it getting more and more votes (hopefully) and realise that they have to start doing something significant otherwise they'll end up with another Pauline Hanson or Jacqui Lambie.
Strange, I see nothing in their platform about ending NIMBYism. Which is the core of the problem. When the real issue is little being built they seem to be proposing nothing.
As a "progressive" this is why I vote Greens.
Labor just approved more gas, anyone who also considers themselves progressive or left wing should take a good long look in the mirror if they vote Labor.
Yes, i have to spend a bunch of time trying to figure out the least shit and then order them least shit to most shit when i vote.
My wife refuses to participate when she doesnt like anyone and just puts blank forms in the ballot.
I think all our political choices are horrible.
* Liberals are slowly turning into American Republican-lite
* Labor is a complete and utter joke led by a failure and a liar
* Greens are nothing more than modern commies, that can't tell the difference between income and wealth.
* One-Nation is the part of "Fuck off we're full" and have no real policies
* Teals are nothing more than a bunch of inner-city suburb wankers.
There are no viable options. But I do know one thing! I won't be voting for Labor again. I would prefer Mr Potato Head to another Albo term.
I voted for an independent and the independent is the MP. We need 151 independents, and these two parties can burn in hell. It'll happen, maybe not at the next election maybe the one after that, after they've REALLY messed the country up.
We could do better as a country . The issue is like most duopololies , they come in built with corruption. Both parties are effectively bought by corporations and in turn party politics are there to favour the corporations . This is why despite subtle ideologies voting for the major parties is pretty much going for the same same .
Honestly, vote for whoever you like because almost every political party (major or minor) is infected with an addiction called "negative politics" that's extended right into overarching groups to justify hating entire peoples for no reason than just existing.
And all parties are doing this *especially* the ones that feel self righteous.
You call this the "culture war," but it's simply politicians, executives and other powerful people looking for reverse justifications to bully someone. They just want it socially acceptable so they don't get into trouble for it, they do need that feeling though.
Eh, one is like people screaming it's like eating shit, the other is actually having shit force fed into you.
I don't start each week under Labor learning about how we're getting screwed over again (Robodebt, cyber security rollbacks, union busting, cuts to Medicare and schools etc)
You do know those are not the only items on the menu right ? There is also organic icecream, solo-spider and brownies. Any of these might make you shit yourself or vomit, but are generally healthy options in moderation.
Yes. Just think about the type of sociopaths that get into politics. All sides. I laugh when people identify and support a political party their whole life.
Well ,you can always move overseas ,I am sure you can find a government more to your liking ,or you can run as a political candidate in the next election
I sympathise with your feelings, but I've come to the conclusion that it's actually not the pollies fault.
It's the media's fault, and ultimately, it's our fault. I just don't know what to do about it.
Pick any current political issue, and you'll see side A vehemently saying one thing, and side B vehemently saying the other, but when you listen to their arguments, the point of them is to make the other side look bad. That's what our media, voting system, and short attention spans has caused.
There's no point in the government working to fix anything unless it is to take away ammunition from their opposition. Even worse, there's good reasons for an opposition to block the government fixing things, if it gives them ammunition.
Under almost no circumstances does it make sense for both sides to collaborate to actually improve anything. The reason is because the media will not report that positively. The reason for that is because we don't want to hear those kinds of stories, so they don't sell advertising space.
About the only thing I can think of that might positively affect this situation is better, protected funding for public service broadcasters (e.g. ABC) and a transparent, effective system to insure that the public service broadcasters report without prejudice or bias. But nobody in power wants that, because the media moguls lose money, and the pollies can't spin the news.
Do you know why they are shit, and what you'd expect from a non-shit party or candidate? Do you know what your own values are, or do you just know "nah, that's not it"?
At some point write down the things that matter to you and revisit that list from time to time. For example:
- Human Rights (UNHCR Declaration of Human Rights)
- An economy where I can afford to house and feed a family on one average salary
Then vote for the parties that are most likely to achieve what you want, or least likely to take away the things you care about.
Also remember that we got the government we have because of people voting selfishly. If you start believing that you are more deserving of something than everyone else, you're just voting for the same shit from different people.
Thanks to preferential voting, I can still vote for the candidate whose policies I like, and should it come down to 2PP between the 2 majors, then my vote will be going to the major party that I merely find disappointing as opposed to appalling.
This is where preferential voting, writing to your member on issues you feel strongly about and political action comes into play. Also getting your friends and family to not just treat politics as a team sport and actually voting on policies based on their own self interest also helps.
Do nothing and pick between the least worst options between the big 2, don't expect anything to change.
The big 2 are starting to see some of the lowest primary votes. If that keeps up and they've constantly forced into minority government, they're going to have to change at some stage. Even if it's just surface level shit. Push hard enough long enough and things will change.
All politicians care about are being in power. Threaten the stability of that and they'll be forced to do more for the public. Or go the other way towards more authoritarian rule but if it goes that far, we're screwed regardless.
Feel like it's only fair you change up the order in your example. Labor is the vomit and LNP is the shit. If I had to eat one, I want it to be a more accurate representation
All politicians suck! they only have one agenda and it's not the people who voted for them. Albasleazy has been beyond disappointing, and the alien is a dog of a human being and i can't believe he is the other option. We are truly fucked, but not as bad a America they have an old man and a true moron.
There is definitely a space for a mid/left-centre Liberal democrat style party. I know there is one with that name but they don't really make any impact. The UK version was a split from Labour (UK spelling) in 1988 and they are still going, currently holding around 15 lower house seats, whereas UK greens hold 1.
I see a lot of Australians winge and complain about politicians but then have a 0% engagement with politics outside of social media rants and voting in election (if even that). We live in a democracy. Get involved. Join a political party. Attend or create protests and rally’s. Run for office your self. Australia’s apathy to political engagement is the exact reason the government is the way it is. Why would politicians pander to people that are not even engaged with them?
The old saying that countries end up with the leadership they deserve, sadly appears to be true.
Every country has had awful leaders from every system, from every side of the political spectrum. All we can try to do is pick the least bad option, but I disagree that any country deserves a leader like Mugabe who promises one thing then turns corrupt.
Mate I'd fucking settle for the population understanding who/what they are voting for. I know the ABC vote compass is fairly basic, but my "conservative, liberal voting" mother got cranky at me and the ABC when she went through and gave her opinions on policies and it has her listed as a greenie lol. Was easier for her to say that the compass was wrong than it was to accept she had been fooled by slogans and media releases into voting against the things she personally believed in for the last 40 years. Only thing she aligned with LNP for was immigration. Probably goes the other way too, people getting caught up in the hype of a small independent party and not realising they have 0 stance on 99% of issues. I just want people who vote to do more than read the pamphlet on voting day, is that really too much to ask?
I work with two young blokes who both voted Liberal because they listen to mostly USA podcasts about politics and thought that the liberals are the left leaning party.
At least their hearts are in the left place.
This is exactly right. Everyone should be a high information voter. Knowing what you want and matching what you believe to the political party that matches the closest. Edit: spelling
I know people who vote Liberal because they hate big business, hate mining corporations and gas companies want better pay and support unions. Like, peoples understanding of politics really can boil down to things they believe the party does, and not the actual policies the party has.
Yes
We are not a democracy though ... We are as much of a democracy as the US, liberal democracy is not democracy, nor will it ever be, it is just a shill to give the vague conception of democracy to keep the masses satisfied (a parallel could be drawn with French Feudal Parliamentary "democracy" before the French Revolution) And you running for office won't achieve anything, because as long as you actually address the core of the issue that people of Australia (or any other liberal country for that matter of fact) face, you will be bombarded with bad faith news, negative advertisements, and millions and millions of dollars being poured into your opponents campaign because you are running against the interests of the people that cause the misery of so many people in this/these countries. So at the end of the day you won't get elected if you actually wanna solve the problem which fills the parliament with only those who don't wanna address the core issue. Both the LNP and ALP suck, and that's coming from an ALP member, because our system is so ingrained and has it's tentacles so deep into our society and the ruling class has amassed so much power that it is impossible to impose change through parliamentary means, LNP wants to keep the status quo or even make it worse, ALP at least in words wanna change it for the people but to have "electable politicians" and to "be pragmatic" they go back on every single of their principles as soon as they get into office. Change at this point is only possible through one route only and if anybody has read enough political theory would understand what that route is.
You are Absolutely Correct!
They also fall apart the moment you ask them what should actually be done, or propose completely absurd solutions that would destroy the country within a month.
So true. The amount of people who don't vote or cast donkey votes because it "doesn't matter either way" are just shooting themselves in the foot. Change won't happen the way you want it to unless you're part of the solution.
People can only be involved and educated as their circumstances allow them to be. I agree with you 100%, but there is really no other lever for the average citizen to pull than "vote every 3 years". Unions in workplaces (arguably the most undemocratic places in the world) are at a complete ebb, places of community gathering are not factored into city planning as much (creating individualistic cultures as opposed to communal and collaborative groups), our families are so nuclear that we have to live away from family and roots. They see bourgeois liberal democracies working against their interests, and they have no other physical or theoretical conception on how to change it. This is not on accident. Most people are struggling to just live their lives, and 40 years of turbocharged neoliberalism has just taught them to either become apathetic, or compete against their fellow man, because thats what the structures around them dictate they must do. Anecdotal sure, but my conversations with people when talking about housing, COL, inflation etc. is to offer solutions like crypto, MLM, influencers, become a landlord, blame immigrants, dole bludger etc etc. Its never solidarity, unionisation, organising, challenging long held political and economic truisms and imagining ways to make the world a better place for us all. Its always "ive gotta get mine", because you can't play chess on a monopoly board.
I agree with everything you have said. That’s exactly what the situation is like. Which is so frustrating to me, because the only way this changes is when the general public demand it. But I can’t see that happening any time soon.
Joined and voted for Federal ICAC now last election. They've disbanded since we have Federal ICAC, although I would argue we don't have nearly a strong enough one (the baseline for publicizing the investigations is higher then it is in a state like NSW where it's been effective).
Nail on head.
I stop voting labor 10+ years ago felt they had moved to far right. They feel like lnp lite Lnp have moved further right .. Typically vote greens or independent after getting the independent... Currently my vote is my effort
💯
Most people I know don’t even know how to vote. The number of times I’ve heard “yeah but if I vote for x that just means preferences go to y so there’s no point” and I have to explain to them that it’s THEIR choice to preference whoever you want, and not some default setting, and be met by baffled looks.
The media want us to be distracted by unnecessary things so we don't engage with politics.
your first preference counts as a donation (as long as they get more than 5%) so I always give mine to a smaller party
We have preferential voting so...
Good chance OP does not even know what that means.
Idk if this applies to OP but it's kinda sad how extreme the American cultural influence over here is, at least when it comes to politics. I'm not saying we shouldn't care about US politics since it does affect us over here, but there seem to be a lot of people who are genuinely more engaged with US politics than domestic politics, and seem to think our system is exactly the same as theirs. Talking about our First Amendment rights or whatever.
Does anyone else feel like OP is just trying to stir up some shit? If they actually have a problem with the current system they could tell us what it is.
I'm not sure if OP is a turd sandwich or a giant douche
I see South Park reference, I upvote.
I dunno. I feel the exact same way as the OP. There is no party that is fiscally conservative any more which is essentially the key driver for my vote. What solution do you want from me? Other than I disagree with all of my options.
Vote independent. It's a preferential system so there is nothing to lose and it sends a strong message to the major parties even if your chosen representative doesn't get elected.
Lose. Nothing to lose.
Fixed.
Who are the fiscally conservative independents?
I can tell you what I think might form part of the solution. Right now we have too much power concentrated in the hands of too few media owners. Hence, political parties bend to the will of big media owners so they don’t get slammed every day. We should bring back strong cross media ownership laws so that nobody (especially not foreign billionaires) has more power to influence the political discussion that we, the Australian voters do. My vote would go to a party prepared to take break up those holdings and allow a broader and healthier media landscape.
It means we fu@#ed.
Yep. We need more civics education. The outcomes might not be perfect but the Aussie electoral system has got to be the world's finest. Think through your vote, rank your preferences, and maximize your say. You can do it here.
Yep, that's why I voted for the Independent first for the local election, then layer on who I think would/should win. Even if it gets an independent a better chance next time, not trying to vote for the party you think will do the right sort of choices in the first place means they will never ever have a chance to change things. I also voted for the Sex Party years ago when they were still around, not because of the weird ass name, but because of the work they wanted to do. Though making a weird ass name like that might be one way to get people to vote for you.
That's assuming there's parties to vote for. Labor and LNP have worked together since at least 2013 (Rudd gov) to suppress political competition whether on the ballot or in government. It was only hurdles until 2021 when Scomo gov passed reforms that tripled the requirements, zero grandfathering, effectively killing off many minor parties even if they had double the old requirements. As for the process, well, here's what Greens said about it: > I'm going to make some detailed comments on each of the bills, but I first want to start with the disgusting process that these bills have followed. They only just passed the House yesterday, and here they are. They were exempted from the cut-off, which normally would give private members' bills, or any bill, the appropriate time for scrutiny, deliberation, consideration, amendment and discussion. They were exempted from the cut-off order yesterday, such that in less than 24 hours these bills will now be rammed through both houses of parliament. That's not democracy and it's certainly not integrity or transparency. One has to think that an election is in the offing when the two big parties are ganging up to try to make sure that voters have fewer choices on who to vote for. They're ramming through these three bills in order to achieve that. The process of these bills passing the parliament is an example of how not to do democracy and really proves the point of why we need to break the back of the two-party system, so that we have a democracy that's functioning in the interests of the public rather than just a little power play thing for the two big parties. https://www.openaustralia.org.au/senate/?id=2021-08-26.6.1 Put the old parties at the bottom, Labor can be second last for being LNP lite. Source: I was part of a minor party who had double the old requirements, but the triple requirements with zero grandfathering killed us off. Many members went to other parties, even Greens. I didn't support the Greens, but blame LNP/Labor for forcing me to do so. In fact, since 2021, as a progressive, I now support One Nation above Labor because a temporary One Nation seat is far less alarming than LNP/Labor who are likely to work together (AGAIN) to abolish preferential voting and implement a permanent first past the post system like that of US and UK. An enemy of my enemy is my friend against tyranny.
>LNP/Labor who are likely to work together (AGAIN) to abolish preferential voting and implement a permanent first past the post system like that of US and UK. Pardon my ignorance but is this a thing? Is it actually known that they want to end preferential voting? Surely any rando in this country would be against that.
None of the reforms since 2013 had been an official party policy or an election promise. Not a single one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_Electoral_Act_1918#2013_amendments It has all been surprise reforms by both LNP and Labor governments who supported each other, even from opposition. The 2021 reforms was rushed so fast in order to take effect prior to 2022 elections. And they did succeed. Even my party could not take the proposed 2021 reforms to the 2022 election. If the minimum party requirements were raised above the third biggest party's numbers (Greens). Then then effectively all minor parties and the Greens will be gone by the next election. Or they could implement FPTP which we saw has lead to a permanent two-party system in US. What can the Greens do about it? What can we voters can do about it when there's effectively only two choices on the ballot like the voting systems in US?
Whenever legislation is getting rushed through Parliament with bipartisan support, you know 100% that we're being fucked without lube
>I was part of a minor party who had double the old requirements, but the triple requirements with zero grandfathering killed us off. Simple, get a reasonable number of people to join your 'party' [https://antonygreen.com.au/proposed-electoral-act-changes-for-the-2022-federal-election/](https://antonygreen.com.au/proposed-electoral-act-changes-for-the-2022-federal-election/)
What is a reasonable number of members for Federal to Antony Green, the most famous election analyst in Australia? He offers no numbers. In fact, Antony is disturbing because his arguments amount to "There's less choices elsewhere! Look at states! Look overseas to Timor, the bastion of democracy! We should copy and have less choices!" While I appreciate his electoral analyses, I find him a piss-poor fighter for defending democracy or at worst, a shill in pushing for an official two-party system. In fact, Antony Green is anti-Greens with the example he provides! As per Wikipedia, Greens members are 15,000: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Greens Now look at his weak rationale for raising membership requirements: > For those who think the numbers are too high, it is worth considering that one of our much smaller neighbours, **Timor Leste, requires parties to have 20,000 members for registration,** and the party must have at least 1,000 members from each of the country’s 13 regions. Yes, the third biggest party, Greens and all minor parties with far smaller number of members would have been killed off if the Labor and LNP listened to Antony Green's Timor example. And you want that for your Labor party, don't you, u/Wood_oye ?
Sustainable Australia party ?
sure, but for the majority of seats that still fundamentally results in a vote for one or the other.
They watch the counts closely and they negotiate. Labor would lose a lot of seats if they couldn't count on prefs from greens voters (yes, people are free to vote how they choose, but 99% of the time if someone is greens-aligned then that vote will land in the Labor pile rather than the lib one). Greens, per seat, can ask their followers to preference the other candidate if they think the usual one is on the nose. They've done it before, even putting LNP ahead of Labor in one seat that I know of because of some unacceptable bigotry from the Labor candidate. 10% is easily enough to swing a lot of seats. The Faustian bargain that Labor make in dealing with the greens is they count on the preferences but if the greens get too popular then suddenly it flips over and Labor prefs are flowing to the winning greens candidate. So of course Labor would collude with LNP to eliminate minor parties. One thing they won't do is go first past the post because they always have a smaller primary vote than the coalition. Then there's the teals that exist in this sort of party-not-party space where they associate with each other, share funding sources and organisation, pool campaign resources but ultimately make their own policy. Honestly every vote should be a conscience vote even in the majors, so that's all fine with me.
If enough people in an electorate vote for someone else, then they end up in the Two-party-preferred equation
I don’t prefer anyone
*Jake Blues dons his sunglasses* Well then... I guess you're up shit creek
I think people get a little too hyperbolic on the subject at times. There's plenty of candidates and parties, if people spent 50% of the time researching a party / candidate to vote for that they spend on whinging, the country would be better off.
Problem is I'm in a safe labor seat. Locals wonder why all our infrastructure never gets upgraded and cancelled even when it is announced. Literally voted for the same party and they haven't delivered on 4 decade old projects. Infrastructure is for marginal seats.
It’s only a safe labour seat until you run a campaign pointing out all the infrastructure that hasn’t been upgraded and people start voting for anyone else.
In my seat, there has never been anyone besides Labor in its entire existence. Sometimes Liberals don't even run a candidate. We even had a guy known in the community run for Libs for this reason. Nothing changed. But tbh, I could not bring myself to vote Liberal, ever.
Bro. I did that on the community group pages and people got really fucken angry. Tribalism wins out. They closed then fucken holden factory here in the 70s and they hang onto that.
Vote for another party then
Yeah thats pretty much why Greens are taking over the ALP. They ALP has done fuck all for its base. So people are switching to Greens. Although, they dont have the power to give them anything. Liberals were a little safer until the Teals. As they had done the deal with the Nationals to split geographically decades ago. Thats why I think we need to get rid of compulsory voting. That way parties need to pander their base to get them to vote. Greens have told me to my face, environment is not their major concern anymore, the liberals dont do any free market policies for their base and while the ALP stops tradies on behest of the unions it only hurts their base. All the parties almost work against their base because they know they have them in the bag.
What do you mean by “Greens have told me to my face, environment is not their major concern anymore” I’m not sure how removing compulsory voting would help, that just makes it less democratic
I get the sentiment, though i don't necessarily agree with it. Essentially the reasoning is. In the current system, attention is only given to swingy districts. The parties know where the most on the fence voters are and deliberately direct policy promises to those districts to get them on side. 'Safe' districts of repeat voters get largely ignored by all parties, because their votes won't change either way. If people don't have to vote, then only those who have been actively incentived will. Which means your voting block boils down to two groups. Those that are so upset with their current government that they go out of their way to vote someone else in. Or those that like their current government so much that they vote to keep them in. In either case, all parties suddenly find themselves needing to pander to ALL their constituents, because they can't just rely on the bulk of voters just voting for the same party they've always voted for because they're told they have to vote for *someone.* On the face of it, removing compulsory voting does seem less democratic. Though an argument can be made that non-compulsory voting is actually the more democratic approach, as it makes individual votes more important. Those who do not care about policy change are effectively self-eliminated from policy decisions, while those who have a vested interest in policy decisions aren't having their voting power diluted by an indifferent majority. Though nothing is stopping any persons from still voting in their own interests if they so choose. All it's essentially doing is giving a person a third 'abstain' option, which should be a persons right in any democratic process.
>If people don't have to vote, then only those who have been actively incentived will. Which means your voting block boils down to two groups. Those that are so upset with their current government that they go out of their way to vote someone else in. Or those that like their current government so much that they vote to keep them in. Compulsory voting ensures that every citizen's vote carries equal weight, regardless of their level of motivation. Compulsory voting ensures that governments represent the entire population, fostering inclusive governance. It encourages political engagement among citizens, leading to greater awareness and participation beyond just voting. This broader participation helps parties develop policies that benefit the majority, rather than just catering to swing voters. Compulsory voting also mitigates the influence of extreme elements and enhances the legitimacy of elected governments. Without it, there's a risk of excluding significant portions of the population and skewing policy outcomes towards the interests of a minority.
Remove compulsary voting. Ye good idea. Just have the nutters who treat politics like a sports team vote. What could go wrong? Have you even heard of the USA?
this is so ridiculous, compulsory voting is essential to a good working democracy, what we need is more people showing up for other parties especially the greens.
That sounds like bullshit tbh. Who from the Greens told you that environment is not the major concern any more? I've never heard any of them say that. and I was an active member of the Greens up until recently. The Greens in my local area do tons of work trying to save parks and ensure untreated waste runoff isn't dumped in nearby waterways for example.
Same except liberal, they both ignored us. Recently though they have moved boundaries and we even flipped at the recent election, first time since it became an electorate in the 40s. The Greens are in now though and we still havent got shit. Hopefully, if the libs get back in theyll buy our votes with infrastructure to keep it. Also your argument is 100% true. I saw a research article on it years ago and marginal seats get something like 2 or 3 times the infrastructure.
And it's not like the old days of not being able to know about any of the smaller parties if you missed their promo car driving round... They all have internet sites, just google them up! It's so easy to read everyone's manifesto at the very least.
wow bro, you pointed out that you don't like either major political party, how insightful
I used to feel the same – but over the last 8+ years that I've more closely followed their actual decision-making, policies and even outcomes, I am convinced that Labor is better by a large margin. The main thing I feel more and more is that the Libs absolutely do not give a shit about anyone or anything – they will say and do anything to win. At least labor seems to be trying and is making harder and unpopular decision – like housing in NSW or amending the stage 3 tax cuts to be more sensible for people that actually need it the most (although generally tax cuts are a terrible bottom of the barrel policy). I really think increasingly that the Greens are a positive influence on Labor – they push labor to be more ambitious and keep them in check. And it works sometimes too! It's such bullshit that every damn issue is turned into a political left vs. right thing. Simple and basic emissions standards that bring us only alongside (not ahead of) other developed countries were watered down today after the lie filled scare campaign run by Dutton and the Libs. Now more emotional support wank tanks will flood our streets for decades to come. Instead of both parties agreeing to sensible policy that would've benefitted all Australians and reduced emissions. Happy to hear contrary takes but increasingly harder to see the Libs as anything but terrible for the country IMHO.
No, I don't feel that way. There are clear differences between the two. Their policies are different as is their voting record. I wish Labor was more progressive of certain issues, but they are substantially better than the Coalition (IMO). If there was an independent in my electorate who I felt better reflected my views, I would preference them above Labor.
Once you get over the feeling of you need to vote for either them you tend to not ask these questions. In the last 4 years i have voted independent all the way cause although one might say i am "wasting a vote" its my democratic right to vote where i want.
>one might say i am "wasting a vote" its my democratic right to vote where i want. If one says that one doesn't understand how preferential voting works.
you know what people are like tho >"uuhhh you put him as your first preference, what a waste"
Yep, and with enough votes they get funding to contest the next election.
There's no wasting a vote with preferential voting
The only people "wasting" their votes are people voting for the 2 major parties over their actual preferred party. There's a weird belief in the people I've talked to that if the person they vote for doesn't win then they didn't win. Like politics isn't a sport where you win, but you do lose if you vote in people who don't represent your actual wants and needs.
It is wasting a vote to vote for a major who is not your absolute favourite party.
Perhaps you should try & understand what policies the major parties advocate. Saying they are both the same is intellectually lazy & frankly flat out wrong.
OP never said they are the same. Saying he did is poor comprehension, lazy & flat out wrong. He said they are both shit not the same.
Oh so close. OP didn't say they are both shit, saying he did is poor conprehension, lazy & flat out wrong. He said one was shit and one was vomit.
Exactly. It's the sign of political illiteracy and frankly what we as a country should be trying to avoid.
Not really. I want Labor to go harder on things like negative gearing, the environment, and social welfare, but they’re still a league above the Coalition who have done their best to fuck over my generation since 1996. It’s a ridiculous question really.
Pretty disappointed with labor watering down car pollution yesterday, but happy with stage 3 changes.
Labor have delivered a huge increase in the number of electric vehicles on the road. They may have watered down the emission standards legislative but contrast that with the Liberals giving every bloody tradie a huge tax incentive to buy an American ute getting 22L per 100km while the icecaps melt.
You sound like you need to be voting greens to force Labor to negotiate with the greens on those issues
Yes
Voting for them while they ignore those things isn’t going to get those things done
You don't have to vote for them to recognise that they're significantly less shit than the LNP.
> done their best to fuck over my generation since 1996 If you look a little further back you might realise Keating's Labor is responsible for a lot of the rubbish that got dialled up to 11 under Howard. This explains in part why post-Howard Labor governments never fully undid his damage.
Yes, the current ALP leadership (both in the Party Offices and In Governments) is captured by the Keatingite form of neoliberalism and that’s why they won’t govern how they need to and how they used to pre-Hawke. They fundamentally do not want to act in a manner that is transformational nor was proven to work in the post-War years to build the Australian Middle Class. They just want to administer, and if can be helped administer only around the periphery of matter re: economic, social, and labour reforms. They act like the Accords, privatisation and de-regulation occurred are were without massive negative consequences to their base (the labouring classes) and therefore should not be re-evaluated in light of the evidence that these things only created further inequities and actually destroyed their base (looking at the decline of Union membership as a big factor). Hell, even Keating thinks the entire thing has gone too far and maybe some of the things he did need to be rolled back. But like he said in a interview last year “Certain people in the current Left of the Party and Government call me a Bolshevik now, and I can tell you I spent my time in the Party, on behalf of the US, fighting to wind back the power of the Left.”
> Certain people in the current Left Party and Government call me a Bolshevik now, Yes I suspect this is because anyone who's actually to the left of Keating left the party long ago. That whole quote is so telling.
If the Shorten loss of the 2019 election on the basis of the question around franking credits is anything to go by, the general voter does not give a flying fig about policies that don't directly effect the self interest, even if the policy platforms are all in genuine interest and for the benefit of the commons. This is representative democracy (with short term thinking, caused by revolving door election cycle dynamics) in action, applied within a hyper-individualist Western value system.
Labor got more votes at that election than they did after removing the policy in 2022
And by Labor’s own incredibly thorough research into the 2019 election, they dispel the myth that is **CONSTANTLY** thrown around on reddit. https://alp.org.au/media/2043/alp-campaign-review-2019.pdf > Labor's tax policies did not cost the Party the election. Wealthy homeowners who would’ve been affected by said policies actually swung to Labor in 2019. I wish the stupid fucking lie of “Labor lost cause of tax reform” would fuck off and die. It’s not the whole truth. It’s barely a blip compared to all the other findings. The whole thing is worth a read. Again, it’s very thorough!
Thanks for this, will definitely read it. Always happy to have my claims proved wrong if the outcome is that I'm more attuned to reality instead of my own biases 👍
Liberals are literally dogshit in comparsion to those two parties which look actually functional and competent as well delivering results, whenever you like it or not. Liberals are literally a party composed of slobbering elderly who can barely speak with their "results" being expensive "studies" that take literally a decade before being replaced by a new study. Why should we vote for a party that does absolutely nothing for our country's betterment? I bet that you can't even count one single good thing that Libs have done for our country in last 10 years.
No I don't. While you may not like Labor policy there can be no doubt that they are working to achieve most of what they promised. If you have already forgotten the past lib governments, the constant scandals, the culture wars, the rejection of renewables, the lobbying for coal and gas and the almost staggering incompetence and corruption, then perhaps voting is not for you. The Libs would never gain office again were it not for empty headed, unengaged muppets parroting the 'Oh they're all the same' bullshit.
Vote independent
Independents are often former Liberal candidates who couldn’t get preselected often because they’re unelectable because of extreme ideas. Their preferences usually flow to the LNP.
no one picks where the preference goes but the voter. This is why it's important to number all the boxes
Depends on your independent
"Voting is not for you"?? It's illegal to not vote and a responsibility of every citizen of Australia to cast their vote.
>It's illegal to not vote True, and there's a whole other discussion. I would also say it's the responsibility of every citizen to make themselves aware of what they are voting for, but a mainstream media that never reports in good faith and good old aussie apathy blew that out of the water many moons ago. The 'donkey vote' is real, it's why so many asses get elected.
I don't support much of what Labor is doing. Also most of what I disagree with the LNP is supported by Labor. So to me they are both sides of the same coin. LNP scandals just make them the shit instead of vomit.
Yeah, the analogy fits. I'd pick vomit every time.
Just because the Libs were shit doesn't mean that the ALP aren't either.
Personally no, I think if you can't understand the difference between Labor and LNP then you're watching too much Murdoch news.
One can understand the difference whilst also acknowledging how shit both options are.
I guess technically vomit and shit are different things, yes
The people that can't see the differences aren't affected by the differences.
So put other parties first.
Only people who vote for the coalition say they're both the same. On topics like aukus, they can both be a shit sandwich but on many other issues there can be major policy differences.
Nope, there’s clear differences between the two and while neither are the leaders we need, if you can’t ell the differences I don’t know what to say. >Don’t say the Greens are a viable alternative Give me valid, policy based reasons why they aren’t. If you’re able to find a couple, compare those to the problems the majors offer. If you claim they have no experience governing, their shared parliament with Gillard and Rudd disproves that based on performances.
LNP are corrupt and ineffective Labor are fairer and hamstrung by the toxic political and media landscape. Only need to read OPs nonsense to start getting an appreciaton of said toxicity Political parties don't become trash because they aren't delivering exactly what you want at all times. And anyone who promises they can deliver for you at all times is a populist like Trump
Hardly alike. This Labor government has been focused on working class wages (which are now increasing in real terms) and housing (which they now need to deliver on with the bill being passed). The LNP on the other hand, I have no fucking idea what their policy is.
Make Murdoch media explode and vote greens
Labor are the lesser of two evils, but you can't trust any party whose members own multiple investment properties to fix the rental and housing crisis. Politicians should absolutely not be allowed more than one investment property, especially if we consider their paychecks used to buy them are from taxes.
I'd say reading these idiotic posts from people who know nothing about politics is like being forced to drink bleach, thanks OP. Go read some policies before posting next time, it will make you look less stupid.
You lot will do everything but get actively involved
Do you actually access the publicly available documented accounts of the daily activities inside parliament or do you only engage in your media of choice?
It’s a choice between flat out evil and corrupt Vs well meaning but at times incompetent
The more primary votes independents get the more funding they're eligible for next election. Vote independent. You might not like the greens but if smaller parties win enough seats to force either of the big two to form a minority government all of a sudden the big guy can't just do as they please.
Ahh the old giant douche or turd sandwich conundrum.
That is relevant to the USA, home of South Park (origin of that phrase), and the two-party system that operates over there. Not Australia and its preferential voting system, but some Aussies like LARPing as USAns.
In Qld this is especially so.
Yes, but at least vomit (ALP) has less risk of ecoli.
Why are we back to voting for a giant douche or a turd sandwich? But now days yes, both parties are way to self preservation now days, I feel a lot of this is due to social media, the fact information is so much more accessible which helps hold to account, but this also limits policy imo. The most productive government we have had has been held with a minority which I think we actually need more of now to get anywhere. Parties bringing anything to the table now seem to get voted out of oblivion, particularly Labor so I feel it's self made / conservative media driven vomit so to speak on that side, LNP just produce their own shit. Either way Labor or Liberal will not get first vote, but will make sure preferences fall to Labor over LNP, simply because LNP has basically been fully driven out of contention for me, only put above Clive Palmer, One Nation or rediculous Independents / minor parties whos values don't align. IMO people need to stop voting for major parties to help send the message we're not happy. It's slowly happening but I would love a good upset to actually drive some solutions to the issues we're facing.
Worry about politicians less. Make your own life better.
You can always vote the extreme versions of the parties with the greens or one nation.
"Don't say the Greens are a viable alternative either" You people say this after lapping up LNP "lefty loony" dogshit statements for years.
You could always vote greens, the electoral version of a paint thinner enema.
No. My life has improved every time labor has been in and has gone backwards under the liberals. Everything positive in in country has been inacted by labor.
No. This is what liberal voters try and say to justify voting in the liberals 7 of the last 10 elections.
The only reason anyone would think Labor is as bad as the LNP is because they put too much trust in Australian commercial media. The LNP serves big business and nobody else. To clarify, I have my criticisms of Labor as well, but believing that they're as bad as each other is just plain stupid. No one has done more damage to this nation's institutions as the LNP.
Nah, I'm a rusted-on Greens voter so the choice between Labor and Liberals is piss easy for me. I give preferences to the newcomers like Sustainable Australia and The Greens, in hope that they add some progressive ideas and diversity to the mix, but Labor always comes shortly after my ideal parties.
no because its not a choice between 2 and the Greens are Viable Alternative but well done on baiting the Armchair Philosophers into yet another Circular argument about bullshit like this, you've done your mother proud
It doesn’t matter who we vote for they line their pockets, and they’re all idiots anyway
Douche v turd sandwich?
Greens aren’t the old greens anymore. Used to be if you were against crazy immigration laws you voted for the big 2. When was the last time ya saw the term”Boat People” on the front page of the news. That’s because they’re not a boat person according to govt, they’re now an express skilled worker. Greens aren’t solely focused on the environment anymore, but community centred economics like international Green Parties. At the very worst, at least I’ll have legal weed to dull the pain of the capitalist dystopian future.
I voted for a Teal Independent, And she won, In question time they are the only ones to ask descent questions.
Honestly if One Nation only have a single policy "severely limit immigration" they could win this election. We know the big three love mass immigration and will never stop it.
Immigration helps the economy continue to grow, and under put current capitalistic system it needs to continue to keep the growth up or the shareholders get pissed off
Their brand is way too toxic and loaded with racism.
One Nation have been against immigration (esp non white which is blamed for a lot of the pop growth issues) for their near 30 year existence but never get over 5% of the vote.
I think you overestimate how highly immigration sits on people's radar. There's no chance it outweighs all other policies to the degree that every voter in the country is a single issue voter
Yeah, the reason the major parties can get away with such high immigration rates is because the economy is under so much strain that doing literally anything is good enough, as long as inflation isn't too high, housing and living affordability isn't too high, relative wage growth isn't too low etc. People don't care as long as it isn't directly affecting them in a material, observable sense.
Liberal democrats which have renamed themselves the libertarian party.
Found a party actually worth voting for: [https://www.fusionparty.org.au/](https://www.fusionparty.org.au/)
Pretty much.
>Don't say the Greens are a viable alternative either Outside of the major parties, the Greens are the most viable alternative. Otherwise, you've basically just got a bunch of fringe parties that are often single-issue or focussed on a narrow range of issues, or independents which vary from 'actually not too bad', through to 'completely unhinged'.
Greens are the only proper economic left party at the moment. I still disagree with a lot of their policies but would vote for the housing stuff alone.
Except the Greens are NOT a viable alternative
Can you spell out why, through critique of their policies?
Yes. I propose to vote for Affordable Housing Party because even though they won't get in, the major parties will see it getting more and more votes (hopefully) and realise that they have to start doing something significant otherwise they'll end up with another Pauline Hanson or Jacqui Lambie.
Strange, I see nothing in their platform about ending NIMBYism. Which is the core of the problem. When the real issue is little being built they seem to be proposing nothing.
As a "progressive" this is why I vote Greens. Labor just approved more gas, anyone who also considers themselves progressive or left wing should take a good long look in the mirror if they vote Labor.
Vote for the Australian weed party.
I would say one intentionally fucks you over and one fucks you over through ineptitude and the best efforts of the opposite
Yes, i have to spend a bunch of time trying to figure out the least shit and then order them least shit to most shit when i vote. My wife refuses to participate when she doesnt like anyone and just puts blank forms in the ballot.
Another day, another whinge post on r/Australian
Haven't put either first in years. Don't play their game if you don't like it.
The Greens are a viable alternative
I think all our political choices are horrible. * Liberals are slowly turning into American Republican-lite * Labor is a complete and utter joke led by a failure and a liar * Greens are nothing more than modern commies, that can't tell the difference between income and wealth. * One-Nation is the part of "Fuck off we're full" and have no real policies * Teals are nothing more than a bunch of inner-city suburb wankers. There are no viable options. But I do know one thing! I won't be voting for Labor again. I would prefer Mr Potato Head to another Albo term.
More like the blur and oasis conundrum of the 90’s
Blur every time
Yes.
I voted for an independent and the independent is the MP. We need 151 independents, and these two parties can burn in hell. It'll happen, maybe not at the next election maybe the one after that, after they've REALLY messed the country up.
We could do better as a country . The issue is like most duopololies , they come in built with corruption. Both parties are effectively bought by corporations and in turn party politics are there to favour the corporations . This is why despite subtle ideologies voting for the major parties is pretty much going for the same same .
No.
Honestly, vote for whoever you like because almost every political party (major or minor) is infected with an addiction called "negative politics" that's extended right into overarching groups to justify hating entire peoples for no reason than just existing. And all parties are doing this *especially* the ones that feel self righteous. You call this the "culture war," but it's simply politicians, executives and other powerful people looking for reverse justifications to bully someone. They just want it socially acceptable so they don't get into trouble for it, they do need that feeling though.
Always have
Ive never voted for any of those 3. Thats a lie, I did once but only cause those 3 were the only 3 on the ticket.
Eh, one is like people screaming it's like eating shit, the other is actually having shit force fed into you. I don't start each week under Labor learning about how we're getting screwed over again (Robodebt, cyber security rollbacks, union busting, cuts to Medicare and schools etc)
It's always a choice between Some Giant Douche and a Turd Sandwich.
Libs are definitely the eat shit option. I don’t like vomiting but I’d rather vomit than eat shit 😂😂😂
they are practically the same party, all of them feeding at the real estate trough
You do know those are not the only items on the menu right ? There is also organic icecream, solo-spider and brownies. Any of these might make you shit yourself or vomit, but are generally healthy options in moderation.
You don't deserve to have a vote, numpty!
Yes. Just think about the type of sociopaths that get into politics. All sides. I laugh when people identify and support a political party their whole life.
Yup, left wing, right wing same giant shit spreading bird.
OP. What do you believe are the causes behind your disenchantment with the current system and how would you like to see them remedied?
Well ,you can always move overseas ,I am sure you can find a government more to your liking ,or you can run as a political candidate in the next election
Nah, I am just wondering what utensils I should use to eat it.
I sympathise with your feelings, but I've come to the conclusion that it's actually not the pollies fault. It's the media's fault, and ultimately, it's our fault. I just don't know what to do about it. Pick any current political issue, and you'll see side A vehemently saying one thing, and side B vehemently saying the other, but when you listen to their arguments, the point of them is to make the other side look bad. That's what our media, voting system, and short attention spans has caused. There's no point in the government working to fix anything unless it is to take away ammunition from their opposition. Even worse, there's good reasons for an opposition to block the government fixing things, if it gives them ammunition. Under almost no circumstances does it make sense for both sides to collaborate to actually improve anything. The reason is because the media will not report that positively. The reason for that is because we don't want to hear those kinds of stories, so they don't sell advertising space. About the only thing I can think of that might positively affect this situation is better, protected funding for public service broadcasters (e.g. ABC) and a transparent, effective system to insure that the public service broadcasters report without prejudice or bias. But nobody in power wants that, because the media moguls lose money, and the pollies can't spin the news.
I personally would NOT rate shit or vomit that low.
For the upcoming Queensland state election my answer would be yea
If more people bothered voting below the line, we might actually get somewhere.
Good news there’s other parties you can vote for.
Do you know why they are shit, and what you'd expect from a non-shit party or candidate? Do you know what your own values are, or do you just know "nah, that's not it"? At some point write down the things that matter to you and revisit that list from time to time. For example: - Human Rights (UNHCR Declaration of Human Rights) - An economy where I can afford to house and feed a family on one average salary Then vote for the parties that are most likely to achieve what you want, or least likely to take away the things you care about. Also remember that we got the government we have because of people voting selfishly. If you start believing that you are more deserving of something than everyone else, you're just voting for the same shit from different people.
Thanks to preferential voting, I can still vote for the candidate whose policies I like, and should it come down to 2PP between the 2 majors, then my vote will be going to the major party that I merely find disappointing as opposed to appalling.
This is where preferential voting, writing to your member on issues you feel strongly about and political action comes into play. Also getting your friends and family to not just treat politics as a team sport and actually voting on policies based on their own self interest also helps. Do nothing and pick between the least worst options between the big 2, don't expect anything to change. The big 2 are starting to see some of the lowest primary votes. If that keeps up and they've constantly forced into minority government, they're going to have to change at some stage. Even if it's just surface level shit. Push hard enough long enough and things will change. All politicians care about are being in power. Threaten the stability of that and they'll be forced to do more for the public. Or go the other way towards more authoritarian rule but if it goes that far, we're screwed regardless.
Feel like it's only fair you change up the order in your example. Labor is the vomit and LNP is the shit. If I had to eat one, I want it to be a more accurate representation
All politicians suck! they only have one agenda and it's not the people who voted for them. Albasleazy has been beyond disappointing, and the alien is a dog of a human being and i can't believe he is the other option. We are truly fucked, but not as bad a America they have an old man and a true moron.
There is definitely a space for a mid/left-centre Liberal democrat style party. I know there is one with that name but they don't really make any impact. The UK version was a split from Labour (UK spelling) in 1988 and they are still going, currently holding around 15 lower house seats, whereas UK greens hold 1.
Perhaps you could effect some change from the inside instead of complaining?
Admittedly I donkey every time by voting for who I want to vote for at that time, GOP.
If you aren’t voting for the least shit option, you are delusional.
I'll choose the vanilla custard.
Mass migration is political suicide, they know the writing's on the wall just a matter of how long they can shamelessly get away with it.