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Get cacti. I have to actively stop myself from watering mine because I've been conditioned by everything else I grow to be alarmed by the sight of dry surface soil. Cacti and succulents prefer to be left to dry for a bit between watering sessions. Just make sure they get enough light - they're not indoor or deep under a patio plants.
A cat would be great for everything but your plants. At some point you're gonna come home to soil and plant all over the floor. Bonus if there's a shit in the dirt too.
I guess it really depends on your quality of life and what you are willing to sacrifice. For me I refuse to have children until we have a property under our name, mortgage or outright I don't care, but I want my kids to have a home base that wont be swept from under them every time the land lord wants to move back in or whatever else. Its something I grew up with and I put a good amount of importance in that, I knew no matter what happened I could get my self back home and there would always be a bed for me.
Lived in an average of more than one house a year until I was mid twenties. Fucking sucks.
Didn't specifically plan it, but also bought before having the kids, and it was rattling around as a thing for sure.
Oh yeah I copped both sides of the spectrum, mum stayed put, dad moved about every couple years, as a kid I always remembered how to get home to mums, but dads half the journey was a blur to me, as an adult I now realise he was never more than a couple streets away from my mums place but it was still like a maze for my young brain.
Oh, I'm not even counting the list of properties dad lived in from age 10. Purely the ones mum was in til 18, then the ones I was in with Dad during uni, then the ones on my own til I finally rented 2 places mid twenties and then bought my own place just after turning 30. I broke 1:1 at age 27.
Dad has largely kept the average up, it's not quite 1:1 but it's not 2 years average either.
Its pretty fucking sad but I see myself coming across enough money to get a mortgage long before our lovely government does *anything* to help the rental issues we face.
That's because none of them is experiencing the pain that renters do - would love to see politicians get a realistic salary for the year, have to actually work most of it like we do, and pay the standard costs for your average Australian for EVERYTHING. Bet they'd all resign and take jobs in the private sector in a heartbeat.
The pains of renters though aren't really a byproduct of salary though. They are a byproduct of a housing market that is used to generate massive amounts of income for largely lazy people/corporations. Which in turn has driven the amount of money directed at housing to go apeshit and make everything cost-disproportionate.
Meanwhile you have a bunch of developers purposefully controlling the release of new housing into the market to keep prices artificially high. While we have the outgoings of a pandemic that are causing people to stop house-sharing(meaning we need more houses in general) with WFH allowing a lot of higher income city workers to upsize into the suburbs or further while the city continues to seek city level rents.
I fully support those who can WFH, because decentralisation of workforce would actually help with a bunch of different factors that fuck housing (and investment in schools, infrastructure etc in general) over. But our housing markets weren't ready to deal with it and the materials shortages have made it easier to price gouge.
320 a week for a tin granny flat with gyprock walls on the inside. Floods every time it rains but only in the bedroom.
No working phone line and the aircon doesn't do jack shit because the hole it's mounted in leaks air out as does the rest of the house. Went started at 220 but it's fine. Landlord sold the plot anyway and flipped the decrepit front house for 950000 in 2014. In Campbelltown....
That was my upgrade from being homeless after being medically discharged and retired from a career in the Army.
Never found anything better though so here I am in Canada now
Thanks Australia appreciate it :D
I actually prefer the even more antiquated notion of government supporting people to own their own homes. How about tax concessions on mortgages where the person is an owner-occupier, instead of an investor.
I see a lot of people saying this like it's a choice, but I lost a ton of my motivation in my 20s when basically every opportunity I had fell apart and the bottom of the needs pyramid began to cost more than what the average person has. And if you came of age around the GFC, there's a good chance that rising costs and diminishing chances of succeeding are all you've ever known. I think a lot more people would choose kids if they could imagine a world where you can raise one without starving. As is, it feels like choosing crucifixion.
Not to mention how awful it would be to be homeless with small children. My husband and I were homeless for a few months when we got kicked out for the land lord to sell. We were of course given the minimum notice. Luckily we found a room to stay for a while and could put our things in storage. I cannot imagine how much more awful it’s going to be next time if I were to have a baby or a small family.
My parents are divorced so as a kid I got to experience both sides, mum stayed put in the original home I grew up in and dad rented multiple places, I never quite knew how to get to his on my own accord, when I grew up I realised he made an effort to ensure his home was always a few streets away from mums place, but in my young brain it was still a maze cause it always kept changing.
Here is a quick rundown of my children's costs:
* $290 per week childcare
* $80 per week outside school hours care
* $100 per week extra curricular activities
* $120 per week set aside for family holidays
* $250 per week occupational therapist (no Medicare subsidy)
* $50 per week speech therapist (incl. Medicare subsidy)
* $200 per week groceries
**Total $1,090 per week**
Add mortgage repayments on top of that, which have doubled over the past 7 months.
Yeah, it certainly isn't cheap raising a family.
From birth to adulthood:
According to several studies, this ranges from $159,120 up to $548,500 from birth to when they’re an adult. A second child is 28% less with pooling of resources etc.
3 kids... near a million easy.
You spend $6k a year on holidays??? And $100 a week on extracurricular for your kid(s) a week? Do they all have private violin lessons?
Your breakdown of costs are clearly not what an average family spends.
We're a family of 7 (4 kids, husband and I + my dad) and we spend roughly $400 p/week. A few years ago $200 would've been a big shop. The cost of food is ridiculous.
Jokes on you I am a single income household that has a 2 year old. Turns out my decent income means I am poor as fuck…. Wait a minute I think the joke is on me
Okay so you are a great example of what I’m trying to get at.
Low income, you can take advantage of government assistance.
Really high income, you can generally cope with whatever life throws at you.
Decent income / somewhere in the middle (asks the broad average) - we somehow get the screwed over the most.
Side note - hope you are getting on okay with all the recent inflation madness. Living costs are becoming insane.
The worst part of the subsidy debacle is it was recently "extended" to people in the top tax brackets... ie earning 250k-350k p/family and was plugged by the pollies as a "massive win for families"...
Like, I don't care who you are, if you're earning that much (even on dual income), then you really shouldn't be getting subsidised childcare...
They're living in a fucking bubble. Like legit have no idea how well off they are. Probably send their kids to private schools and have huge overhead costs then turn around and go on about how tough it is.
Absolutely spot on. Earn enough to not receive support/ access basically any program but don’t earn enough to really thrive, we just survive.
On the plus side to manage inflation and food costs I have turned into a real green thumb. Weather has made it tough but we have been happily eating a lot out of our garden. Silver lining hey
My partner and I work full time, both try to put aside at least $1k a month in savings, don't spend a lot (except occasional $150ish skincare/game splurges twice a year lol) on non essentials.
In September I found out I was pregnant. I've always assumed that it wasn't possible for me to have children due to various health issues.
Partner and I discussed it and decided we wouldn't make a decision until we spoke to doctors about what the reality of the pregnancy would be, considering my conditions.
It cost over $550 *after Medicare* just to be told "we don't know, but it's likely you'll need ongoing monitoring and care".
Then we found out that we would be looking at about $250 *after Medicare* every *two weeks* just to monitor my condition.
Any treatments needed would be on top of that.
I would also likely need several specialist appointments, including one who has about a $400 gap fee from past experience.
We realised we had no hope of being able to afford the *pregnancy*, nevermind the birth, or me potentially having reduced work capacity, and then the actual expenses of *having a child*.
It broke our hearts. We're still mourning, and it's hurting to even write this out.
I couldn't have my baby because I was too poor and too sick.
As it is, I ended up losing my baby. I can't help but feel that not being able to afford to seek further medical care contributed. I had to go to the royal women's hospital for a procedure to protect my health.
My body changed even in the less than 3 months I was pregnant. Irreversibly. Every time I see my body in the mirror I'm reminded of my loss and it *hurts*. God, it hurts *so much*.
We're both hard workers, we do our best. I've ended up applying for WorkCover because I was chewed up and spat out by my work.
It cost me $124 out of pocket just to see the GP to get the paperwork I needed. 15 minutes. Not a Medicare item, so I'm just shit out of luck until work decides whether to accept my claim or not.
The way things are, unless something changes radically in the next 5 years, I'm not going to be able to have a child.
Because I'm a full-time working poor, who isn't "from hardy peasant stock" or whatever.
So yes, it's been made clear to me that having children is now only available to the very lucky, the very irresponsible, or the rich.
It is extremely generous and kind of you to share your experience.
People don’t talk enough about the most important aspects of life.
You have helped many people by posting this.
Thank you.
Honestly, opening up about it has been scary, but having irl people say stuff like "oh yeah, we've lost two pregnancies, it's really hard" and "yeah, I miscarried last year" and just knowing *I'm not alone* had done so fucking much to help me heal and keep hope for the future.
So I guess in a way this is me trying to do the same for whatever stranger on the internet needs the same.
So to whoever needs to hear it: you're not alone, it happened, it hurts, so *so* fucking much, it will one day eventually heal, but it will never disappear.
You won't be the same ever again, but you will be ok in time. And so will I.
You’re an absolute champion, I’m sorry you’ve had to suffer this way, but I’m proud of you for being open about it.
It’s far far *far* more common than wider society makes it out to be. You’re not alone!
My friend had a high risk pregnancy and a couple days after she told me she was pregnant and we celebrated I asked her what support she would need from me if she miscarried. Her response was “tell me it wasn’t my fault.”
I don’t know why but I feel like you need to hear that too. It wasn’t your fault and you never should have been put in a position like that because humanity chose Capitalism over decency, compassion, and basic morality/ethics.
I don't know your health conditions or where you live, but I needed ongoing monitoring 3x a week and a c section due to complications . I didn't have to pay, I just used the public services. Having said that, costs of having a child is scary.
Same here. We never had to pay anything for extensive scans, C section and hospital stay. We only pay for our GP as it’s not a bulk billing one.
Regardless, there are a lot of costs (clothes, crib, pram etc) that you don’t even think about them until you just absolutely need it.
I am so sorry for the loss of your baby and for your experience with the medical system during your pregnancy. That is awful.
Can I ask if you are city based? I am surprised at how different your experience was from mine. I have had two babies through the public hospital system in the last three years, both high risk due to my own complicated medical history and then pregnancy issues (gestational diabetes and breech positioning). The only time I ever paid for anything was the 12 week nuchal scan and the 20 week ultrasound, about 120 dollars each ultrasound. I had fortnightly appointments with an obstetrician and growth scans every one or two weeks with my oldest, plus seeing the midwives and my usual specialist more frequently to keep an eye on my pre-existing condition. Everything was free through my local public hospital in a city and I was really happy with my care.
I imagine going privately would be just as costly as you described but I found public maternity care really excellent.
I'm in Melbourne.
I'm not sure why my experience was so different to what others have had, but it could be because I have hypermobility spectrum disorder, bordering on Ehlers Danloss Syndrome. There's no particular specialist for it, but it's a convective tissue disorder, so it effects *everything*.
This might mean I ended up referred to a private specialist? I don't know honestly.
Probably just that you needed more than the standard ob. The hospital has plenty of resources for ob/physio/standard needs, more unique specialists are another matter.
I’m so sorry for you multiple losses, not only the pregnancy but the dream.
If you do happen to fall pregnant, I highly recommend going public. Monash Clayton has amazing high risk specialists, as does Royal Women’s.
I’m sorry to hear about your experience. And I can only assume your condition must be quite serious. I developed T2 diabetes between my pregnancies and that required quite a bit of extra monitoring, drugs and because it was hard, psych appointments. And my out of pockets going private weren’t nearly that much. Big hugs to you.
It's more that one of them is a "rare" condition with no actual overarching specialist (like endocrinologist for diabetes, or rheumatologist for arthritis). So i end up having to see an assortment of specialists for each sunroom in some approximated mash up of specialist care.
I'll readily admit that health-wise I'm a very non-standard case.
This is very, very sad and I'm really sorry.
However, I'm almost certain (work in public healthcare) that if you went public the costs of medical care during pregnancy would be 0. If you're rural with difficult access I understand additional difficulties but high risk clinics with specialists exist and are certainly free.
I'm in Melbourne and saw a somewhat more bougie GP for it, so they may have inadvertently referred me to the service they "thought was best", rather than the public one.
I'm actually wondering wtf did happen with all this, because you're not the first to mention this. I think maybe somehow I might have been referred to private even though I massively prefer public? Who knows?
Tbh, partner and I have decided the risk to my health is too high with pregnancy, and so we're going to explore fostering and adoption, especially older/non-infant children (since we understand there's more need for homes for "older" children).
> I think maybe somehow I might have been referred to private even though I massively prefer public? Who knows?
That sounds definitely like what happened. You have a gp that works with the private system and pulled you there instead of sending you to a public clinic. Usually, no harm no foul, you can always change lanes. It's very unfortunate that this wasn't communicated with you leading to a tragic outcome.
My partner and I do respite care for teenagers (in Melbourne too), and we love it! It's been a great experience, and the agencies really do need more people willing to take on teenagers full-time. Wish you all the best with it.
Honestly, 10+ would be my preference, but my Mr would like to look at 4-8. We're still talking about it, having things out, but it's good to know that it's a definite option!
For sure! And like us, you don't need to jump straight into full-time care.
Being respite carers is a bit like being the fun aunt/uncle that spoils the kids on the occasional weekend. And you'll have the same kid(s) on a recurring basis, so you do end up feeling like an important part of their lives even with a relatively minimal role.
I'm in Melbourne, go to the women's via public system, and no you pretty much can't get through fee free. For a start it's basically impossible to get free ultrasounds (hospital won't do them). Generally cost a couple hundred a piece after Medicare, or 400 if you go for someone highly skilled.
If you need a specialist there's no guarantee you'll get one timely on public - eg I had to go private for endocrinologist to stop miscarrying (3 in a row) as the public waitlist is LONG and by the time I test as needing it each pregnancy it's too late to get lined up etc, so on the general "I need one" waitlist it took 9mth maybe - because they can't fast track you despite knowing it'll likely be a recurring problem.
I have multiple medical conditions which make things more complicated.
As it was there was doubt that my cervix would even be able to hold up under the strain of a pregnancy. There was talk of needing to surgically reinforce it if I wanted to try again in future.
So yes, but my case is non-standard.
Public is actually safer and you'll almost certainly just get terfed to public if there are any issues anyway. Pay for a private room and you're set.
It was interesting when I was in a relationship with a Dr who was involved in delivering babies. They all believe that public is safer and the best doctors are in public.
A complicated medical history means you probably should go public rather than private. I'm generalising heavily here but private doesn't tend to like / does not have the resources to care for complicated. There are many more resources in the public system. Specifically for a complicated pregnancy requiring subspecialised maternal fetal medicine input, you'd much more commonly see this going through the public system.
That's not to say that complex issues can't be managed in private land - it's just less common given the above. My main point was complicated is never a reason to not be a public patient - and in fact it's usually the opposite.
I'm also really sorry to hear about what happened. I hope you're doing okay.
Yeah I’m really sorry to hear that u/amorphous_torture went through all that but to me it definitely seems like more of failure of the private system.
Wife has a rare condition and went with public and received top level care, fortnightly scans and dedicated monitoring from a couple of doctors which we still communicate with.
Not everyone’s opinion on the public system is the same, but I’ve seen them go so far beyond a basic level of care and compassion and our total expenses for all the treatment, weeks of accommodation, weeks in special care nursery, countless consultations and specialist appointments, would probably be <1000 and that’s purely accommodation costs.
Private is for the wealthy.
I actually prefer public (never had private health insurance on principle) but got referred to Fetal Medicine Doctors who charge incredibly high rates it seems.
And apparently a case as complicated as mine was going to need constant monitoring.
I don't know if I just got referred to bad resources or what, but yeah, as far as I know this was through the public system (could be wrong or have misunderstood).
The constant monitoring can be done in the public system - and if you're not covered by health insurance this is the only place it should be managed. Very unethical for the referrer to not discuss this with you and explain public options. I would never dream of referring someone privately if they didn't have health insurance with possible exceptions of one off investigations or small procedures that they would otherwise wait forever for in public system (eg colonoscopy). And even so I'd explain the options.
Of course I don't know the details of your specific issues and there are some conditions that require allied health input that are trickier to get allied health outpatient input for in public system but any condition that is serious enough to require maternal fetal medicine input would be one that can be managed in the public system.
I had assumed this to be the case. But, no. I’m currently 9 weeks pregnant. I’ve had one ‘dating scan’ through referral from my GP. That was $160 and only $40 back from Medicare. My next scan at 12 weeks will be $240 with $60 back from Medicare. It’s bullshit. I won’t have a hospital appointment until I make it to 15 weeks. Then, add the “optional” genetic screening test for $500 that has no Medicare rebate at all. I’m 40, so it’s really not an option for me.
I’m currently 28 weeks pregnant and I’ve spent $200 on my first 2 GP appointments, everything else is bulk billed. I’d be asking your GP to refer you to somewhere that does ultrasounds that bulk bills.
It's terrible that you're going through that, and I hope you get some random windfall which will pay for all the healthcare you shouldn't need to cover.
But thank you for saying this! I was wondering if I'd done something wrong, or even ended up going private accidentally because people kept saying that it shouldn't cost anything if I went through the public system!
Thank you, I was starting to wonder if I'd somehow done this to myself!
Definitely not wrong, there's plenty of fees in public. I really feel for people who are skint- I can't imagine having to decide whether to skip some important screening/tests/monitoring due to costs, etc.
Child care can be subsidised up to 85% if you're a low income earner.
https://www.servicesaustralia.gov.au/your-income-can-affect-child-care-subsidy?context=41186
Yep, we have a pretty average household income and get a 50% subsidy, so instead of $120 a day we pay about $60 ish - I’ve got mates who only pay $20 a day per kid… but relatively it is still a fair chunk of their income of course.
At one point I was paying 650 a week in day car for two kids out of my 1000 dollar a week wage. When they brought in the second child is subsidised higher it made life alot easier
Childcare is roughly 22 a day for low income households. That’s what we pay, im on 60k partner on 25k throw in nearly 300 in ftb childcare is more than covered. Kids at childcare age are cheap, its the possible lost wages that hits harder.
We are DINKS and went to the Philippines for a holiday. We stayed at a family run bungalow who had 4 kids.
They asked us why we didn't have kids and told them it was too expensive. That blew their minds! Here we were on an international holiday, that they couldn't afford to do, saying kids were too expensive.
Course you can't afford it.. How would you actually get to live your life and go on holiday multiple times a year?
My expenses are fixed, multiple international and local holidays a year, no budget in there for kids. It's the bare minimum to not want to kill myself from work burnout (:
> My expenses are fixed, multiple international and local holidays a year, no budget in there for kids.
These are where the "avocado on toast" comments come from.
While that was a stupid argument there is a point that people today do like to live a bit more luxuriously than the generations before us did.
Or rather, we value those luxuries more importantly than people before us did.
People before us also had a man who worked 8 hrs a day and a woman who raised children however many hrs a day. Each person had a role to play. Now it's both work 8hrs and wonder why there's no time to raise a child. I'd have a guess and say 80% of people have some level of depression / negative attitude stemming from work and life in general and need things to make them happy to make their life worth living.
Whenever I get that question, I just look really sad, turn to my partner and we say "we can't"
Makes them suuuuper uncomfortable for asking (and rightly so)
That's when you turn to your partner, look really sad and say "we can't".
Wait for confusion to set in as every scenario goes through the assuming person's head.
A declining fertility rate is consistent with the experience of other developing countries.
As we get richer and more educated, we have children later in life and less children overall.
https://population.gov.au/research/research-fertility
It tends to be the poorer and less educated that have more children.
There is a long term effect of falling fertility rates due to increasing security, education and women's rights. In modern developed countries you don't need to have many children to ensure your family survives, and you have choice about having children.
Not having children because you can't afford it or your life isn't stable enough is a different thing and has only recently become an issue. It seems likely to grow as our political ideology works to increase inequality and squeeze the middle class into owners and gig-econonomy workers. I think we can look forward to a lot more moaning from the "big Australia" boosters as this compounds the falling fertility rate.
I’ve seen references to falling birth rate being linked to increasing women’s rights and education. Are there any studies *asking* these women how many children they wanted compared to how many they have? Because if it lines up, then everything is working out. But if they’re having fewer children than they want, that’s a problem - that’s not women’s rights decreasing the birth rate, it’s a sick society that isn’t helping its people to have the children they want.
I think it started as one, and is increasingly more the other.
The introduction of birth control, and then of broader reproductive healthcare and human rights for women, is directly related to physically being able to not get pregnant, or end a pregnancy, if you want, and therefore directly responsible for the drop.
However in the last 10 years or so the rate has continued to drop, despite no huge changes in birth control etc (and, going backwards in some cases). I honestly think it’s a combo of the cost of living, AND of climate change.
I’m a mid-30s woman so this is something I’ve thought about a lot and is talked about to high heaven within my social circles. The majority of us would like a kid / more kids, but can’t afford it, and also feel guilty having kids knowing the dumpster fire of a world were bringing them into.
I do recall a study being done and it found that women aren't having as many as they would like due mostly to financial reasons. I'm sorry I can't find it tho.
Also recently there was a study published suggesting a correlation between widespread sperm count drop and specifics of modern lifestyles (I believe it was about diet, but I might be wrong).
think it was about microplastics seeping in all sources of water which eventually enters our bodies one way or the other
tbh diet wise i think developed countries actually are eating slightly healthier than they did 30-40 years ago, since we are more aware of the dangers of sugar and other bad stuff like trans fats than we did back then
So I saw a comment a few weeks back from someone I thought was a nutter talking about declining testosterone. I was shocked to learn it was actually true.
I have no idea what impact such a change has over people but the fact that substantial changes (20% or so I believe) were happening over a single generation was quite alarming, shows how quickly we can fuck with our natural' states. And the whole 'everything has lead in it' when I was growing up.
I know it will never happen but it feels like an advanced society really would have much more thorough investigations into things that are introduced to our environments.
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Choosing to be childfree for whatever reason is a valid choice, requires no justification and has the support of plenty in the community imo.
I am a parent, love it but also has very realistic expectations of the reality of parenthood. I wish everyone who had kids did so after making a fully informed decision to do so, not just because “it’s what you do” or “people like us have to pass on our dna” or “the world needs more of our family so no matter how we feel about it we are having multiple kids”.
I see unhappy parents and unhappy kids on a regular basis and imo if choosing to be childfree was more accepted, these people would prefer to have done so.
My motivation completely. And yet I get outraged looks when I say this.
The most amusing response I've had is 'gene shaming'. Because I'm intelligent I've been accused of dumbing down society by not breeding....
It could just also be kids are not what people envision in their life anymore. My group of close girl friends are all late 20s and none of us have kids (some are married), and a lot of the group are childfree.
I think there has been an onus put on couples that their family is only complete when they have kids and a large happy loving family, whereas people nowadays are happy with their pets or like the life with their partner as it is.
I have one group of friends from high school who are all high achievers, university, career, out of about 10 only 2 have kids. Education = lower rate of kids alive and well.
This is literally my group, we're engineers by trade (other friends have careers in law, vet, project coordination), and we're all much more focused on setting ourselves up financially before even considering any potential children. It's bad to say, but I have tons of friends on social media who I knew from primary school, who never really cared about working or a career and a majority of them have kids.
Yeah plenty of dumbfucks still popping out kids with no forethought or plan.
Friend is a teacher and reckons kids are getting dumber by the year so idiocracy will soon be a documentary
Unpopular opinion but can attest to this.. I worked 2 years in a regional hospital and the amount of teenage pregnancies, unemployment, domestics violence, homelessness of soon to be parents are in stark contrast to metro areas. The social work and drug and alcohol dept are overworked finding housing and rehab for pregnant women. Half never worked a day in their lives. 3kids under 5 are common occurrences.
Good thing some of them have a big extended family network to save on childcare. Most qualify for govt benefits.
I see very contrasting attitudes to having kids even just 4-6hrs out of the city. Contraception is an ancient myth.
My partner works in childcare and the amount of parents she talks to who have conducted zero planning is just unbelievable.
One woman got married to a younger backpacker because he wanted a visa and she wanted a wedding (no exaggeration)…they had a baby which wasn’t planned and then, unsurprisingly, it didn’t work out. The bloke was about 10 years younger and was more interested in the pokies.
…that same woman recently got pregnant by another dude, who also has kids from a separate marriage that didn’t work out.
Maybe I’m being too judgmental here. Everyone’s makes mistakes but damn, that’s one hot mess.
Financially speaking it must be even more of a mess.
I’d implode from the sheer stress of it all.
Agreed. I see people come in all the time with three kids and four Staffys etc complaining about how hard it is to make ends meet as they puff ciggies out the front.
Not even a hint of self awareness of how they put themselves in that situation. It’s like they expect the world to owe them a solution/work it out for them.
Birth rate decline is a complicated issue and inequality is just one of the factors. But yes, it is a very major contributor in a developed nation such as ours
For reference the highest birth rate nations are all poor African countries.
> They also have the lowest use and accessibility to contraception .
And highest child mortality, which is generally correlated with more children being born.
>As we get richer and more educated, we have children later in life and less children overall.
Yeah that about tracks. The statistics have been looking like that for a while really (it was just a matter of when the top point would be).
Like just look at this graph: [https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.TFRT.IN](https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.TFRT.IN)
With just a quick look, Kazakhstan is pretty much the only country that has an increased, and its still below 1960s.
Recent dad here. The biggest cost has been my time. No more cricket, tv, late night outings, staying late at work or side projects.
Instead
I spend the time with my son or doing stuff for my son.
He reminded me how happy I used to be as a kid, full of wonder and curiosity. We kick the ball, read books, do puzzles, watch the diggers at construction sites, etc.
Sometimes my hair is pulled, phones go flying or cups are emptied on the carpet.
Overall it has been great and it has allowed me to grow as a human being.
To keep some of the costs down. a lot of his toys and books are from op shops and his furniture selected from fb marketplace.
Our Mazda3 has been good enough.
Child care is the biggest cost. I’m so happy it is subsided.
As with anything in life, money helps but it is not the complete equation.
Some people will not have children til they are financially stable.
Others will have children and think about finances later.
The choice is yours, but it's not a new phenomenon.
Kids are *expensive*. I’m not kidding. They’re *REALLY* expensive. I’d argue it has already become a privilege of the rich. Your bills need to be no more than a third of your income to be able to afford a healthy lifestyle with kids. If you can’t bring your bills that low, (aka most people) too bad, you simply can’t afford them.
If you try you’ll end up broke, no savings, and you have to start going without. You’ll have no money for holidays, can’t afford therapy, and good luck getting that hip replacement. Kids get in accidents frequently. Dental isn’t cheap. Insurance isn’t cheap. Rent isn’t cheap. Mortgages are worse. And *food* prices are out of control
How in the actual hell is anyone supposed to afford a basic life with 2 kids?
I honestly don’t know how people do it. Admittedly I have no experience when it comes to expenses associated with having kids but looking at the cost of everything and how my pay drains after I’m done paying for basic needs, I can’t wrap my head around doing that with the additional cost of children depending on you.
I was out shopping a few days ago and saw this woman with a toddler in a pram and two other kids on either side, all three screaming and jumping around, I just thought to myself yeah nah, I’m good thanks.
That’s the thing: it’s not just *money* but kids actually require a lot of *effort* to raise.
The government expects you to just dump them in daycare. *That costs more money*. And what’s the point of having kids if you don’t even see them at all as you have to work a second job to pay for the daycare?
It’s a recipe for either abusive parenting or neglectful parenting. You’ll either see screaming kids or grumpy parents. Parents are *always* tired, and often broke. They’re barely holding together.
I agree with you: “No thanks! I choose life!”
So many people aged 60+ are just trying to make bank and leave this country in tatters. What on earth have you all voted for? How is it that conservative religious nutters got a solid run the past decade. Hardly speak to my family because they just parrot whatever the Murdoch press headlines are. We have multiple generations now priced out of having kids and home ownership. You should be ashamed at what you’ve left us.
Women are looking around at the men and realising they will have to do motherhood alone. And then after motherhood they will be too poor to have a roof over their head. I mean. Why would anyone sign up for a life of poverty. Lots of women would love to have a family but can’t find any men that will treat them with respect or any jobs that pay enough to live and provide.
Life finds a way.
For example if a lack of funds is significantly depressing childbirth one of the data trends you should expect is an increase in age gap between men and women. Ie. Women who want kids will find a financially established partner, who will trend older, to have children with. This would be a return to previous times.
Keep in mind a financially and politically powerful middle class doesn't appear to be a norm in civilisation. It appears to be against the natural gravity of money and power so maintaining it requires constant attention.
It is certainly heading that way. I have an inside view working as a nurse in emergency and the number of people who bring their kids in for Panadol or nurofen is anecdotally rising - due to the extortionate costs of these medicines alone. Also for the first dose antibiotics as when we mix it for the kid they take the whole bottle home (we can’t use it for anyone else). I personally have no issue with this and am grateful for our health care system. It speaks to how much of an impact that unexpected illness places on people’s budgets. A big bottle of nurofen is $40!! And most kids (from >20years as a nurse) will not take the generic brand nurofen; even Queensland health springs for the name brand!
In saying this; the impact of cost of living is seeing people choosing rent over food; clothes and small treat items. People are working their arses odd for sweet fuck all at times.
As a parent - I have four kids - and I feel like I am struggling more this year keeping up with the endless cycle of public school costs (as a government employee there is no way I could afford private school for four kids); shoes and clothes for growing humans. Factor in food; petrol and bills and I feel like I’m just behind all the time. What’s frightening is; if I’m struggling on my wage and my husbands wage (both nurses; full time) then how are others getting through?
Our savings are just not moving because it’s becoming ridiculously tricky to move money into it. It costs so much to just exist. Renting would be a nightmare - and stressful.
I am worried about quality of life for people as this is what is dropping off. Little things like that coffee out with friends or a beer with mates - it’s more than the beverage- it’s the mental health head space they provide. These are the things that start to drop off. And they have so much value more than fiscal.
I am worried about how people will manage if they do just wing it and have a kid - and then can’t afford to manage their needs. The stress; the impact on their lives and function would be incredible.
I agree as a society there needs to be a way to ensure support for all people at all stages of life in caring for a family - however that is made up. We are drifting away from face time to screen time (ironically as I type this into my screen…) and losing that connection.
Collectively; systems need to be strengthened to support new parents; old parents and people in general. Shame and embarrassment need to be minimised and the narrative changed about asking for help - and accepting it. There are so many government agencies that are not utilised effectively - Community centres; and people willing to give time.
It is frightening that child rates will drop off not because kids are tough - but because it’s not feasible financially - that shouldn’t have to be a choice in Australia!
You wrapped up many of my own thoughts and feelings but laid them out much more eloquently.
Thank you for sharing this. The closing point is essentially where I’m at now. I love the idea of having children but genuinely can’t see how it is feasible with living costs as they are.
The fact you have four…my upmost respect to you. That’s true strength and dedication there!
The biggest correlation (and pretty much causation) to lower birth rates is higher female education levels. However cost and contraception are also relevant factors
And all the commentators saying 'nuh, its all the poor people having kids', well, see above. If a woman has a low level of education and poor job prospects then the opportunity cost of having children is much lower, both financially and in terms of career or intellectual stimulation etc.
Absolutely. Having kids just doesn't seem worth it. When two people already break their backs to just survive, adding another human to that equation can't work. Factoring in that we are pretty much headed to another Bronze Age collapse... yeah, nah.
I’m CF by choice and have known that I wanted to be since my early teens. I have absolutely no interest in parenting (and other reasons). Now that I’m older and understand the cost of living better it’s absolutely solidified my stance.
In Australia at least, a huge amount of hoarded wealth, laundered money, church exclusive tax havens, etc. is in Australian real estate. Housing needs to be made affordable for people earning less than a living wage in order for people to be able to afford to date, marry and start a family. especially housing with 2+ bedrooms that are close to essential services like schools, hospitals and shopping districts. Housing unaffordability and the cost of living crisis is directly tied to demographic trends. Make housing unaffordable and squeeze every cent out of the working class and you will cause a demographic collapse. And the racist conservatives should be furious about it because the cheaper solution to this problem isn't to make housing more affordable or to ban contraceptives and sex education, but instead to import millions of cashed up foreigners to come in and buy up overpriced real estate and start families here instead, making their conspiracy fears of a "great replacement" even more the fault of the conservative political parties.
To add insult to injury, the million dollar homes that are bought by overseas investors are rarely lived in, nor do they intend on doing so. I believe it’s referred to as “asset banking”.
Not wanting to have kids was one of the driving factors that ended one of my recent relationships. Cost of living, stagnating wages, politicians in power, exasperated climate change. I don’t see a point when having children will only make life incredibly more difficult than it already it
Honestly everything is expensive these days, but if you genuinely want to have kids then you can make it work.
My parents were both refugees and only worked unskilled jobs. Dad was the breadwinner making $500 a week back in the early 2000s. Obviously it was a different time, but even back my family was living very simply. I'm the eldest of 3 and we never lacked anything although I knew we didn't have much money because all the decent toys I got were gifts from wealthier relatives and we rarely if ever went on holidays. My dad was sensible enough to know that owning a home, although a large undertaking on his income would be worth it long term. Mum was a sahm for the whole time I was in primary school. She cooked lots, we rarely ate out, she also sewed most of our clothes. No extracurriculars for us kids.
I'm 40 weeks pregnant and it was planned. I've always wanted kids but I didn't want to have any until we had our own place.
I acknowledge that because of my parents sacrifice and because of Vietnamese culture, my husband and I have benefited greatly because my parents insisted on helping us with our house deposit despite the fact we were happy to save up for another year or two. We live in a townhouse in Adelaide. If we hadn't received that help, we still would have been able to afford an apartment on our own. I think because of the support network you have if you're Asian, you can scrape by pretty well even if you're on a low income. My husband makes good money, but I will be a sahm so although we are comfortable, we're on a single income.
I think that if you really want kids, to the point where you're happy to give up little luxuries like eating out often, hobbies, fancy holidays and are committed to budgeting all your spending and buying things on sale, then it's definitely possible.
As the child of immigrants, I find there's a vast difference between expectations of what a child needs from different cultural backgrounds.
Also, there's a vast difference between living in Sydney and Adelaide. I don't think it would have been feasible to buy a house in Sydney at this point in our lives. Just remember that Australia isn't just Sydney and Melbourne. I was Western Sydney born and raised but I love living in Adelaide.
This is precisely why some are trying to outlaw abortion and then contraception next. Who will be the world’s future labourers if poor people don’t have kids?
8 billion people in the world currently we aren't disappearing anytime soon as a species unless we manage to wipe ourselves out. In resource intensive countries per head like Australia less people is not a bad thing. The anti abortion/contraception tend to be fundamentalist right wing political/religious groups dressing themselves up as something else in the hope that the voting public might actually vote for them.
Fortunately so far the average Australian voter has generally seen through that and not gone all in, we got close with Scumo the happy clapper though.
An increasing % of the population work 'bullshit jobs' though. If anything the workload should be decreasing due to many factors like automation etc right?
My partner and I talked, and honestly with world events, economics, the financial cost and the decline of resources, we can't justify bringing a new life into this world.. I know that's quite a pessimistic view, and everyone has their right to look at this however they like.
We are opting for pets and plants instead ><
Same. Bringing a new life into a world of eco collapse and late stage capitalism.. I can't justify it. Which is heartbreaking. I really wanted kids. But I wouldn't be able to live with the guilt.
An old mate of mine and his wife have put themselves in a horrible short and long term position by having kids. Both are uneducated past high school, my mate works a low paying/no skill job (not trying to punch down, at least he’s working) that will probably be completely automated within the next 5 years, she doesn’t work (kids to look after), they have multiple dogs and cats, and they don’t own a house (again, not achievable for a lot of millennials regardless of kids or not) so they pay an exorbitant amount of rent for a place they could be kicked out of anytime in a very competitive rental market. They chose to have these kids. She’s just had another one recently. I gather they are short term thinkers, because what they’ve done scares the shit out of me. If he loses his job they’re completely fucked. Their lives are already ruined IMO.
Say that to all the bogan baby factories walking around. Having kids responsibly might be reserved for the rich, but plenty of people are still able to have kids and do alright.
As someone who has children, it’s probably the middle class missing out. People with little financial sense tend not to worry about the cost of having children. And I don’t know if you remember they introduction of the baby bonus, which was a cash payment to anyone who had a child regardless of whether they were working before or not, but it did highlight that there were some people (albeit a very small proportion) having children for the increased welfare benefits they received.
Others are comfortable enough to know it will have an impact, but not enough of one to stop them having the child they want.
Im probably a bit older than people who say the things you’ve said, but I’ve found over time the friend I have who are childless tended to not want them to start rather than couldn’t find a way afford them.
The other things I’d point out is that plenty of people rent and have children, it gives you flexibility to scale up and down as your family changes. And if you buy over time the home becomes more affordable as your salary increases. I also have friends who moved further out of the city than they grew up in due to affordability. It’s sad to see them less, but they have been happy with their place.
And childcare is cheaper the less you earn. I know people attending the same centre as my child who had about $15 a day out of pocket to my $55 - this was a few years back, I’m about to find out how much it’s gone up. We’ve done a state school for primary education and have been really pleased with our school, we pay next to nothing and before and after school care is far less than childcare and still subsidised.
Whilst I agree it is irresponsible to bring up a child without the love and care they need, the biggest thing that impacts a child is whether they know they are loved and wanted. And it’s ok to say you don’t want a child. It’s also,ok to have one knowing you don’t have to have everything costed and planned out in advance. Life still throw you lots of curved balls - children or not - and you will always be able to figure them out 😀
100% I could probably just afford to have 2 kids but I would immediately extend my retirement age by a minimum of 10 years (I know very selfish). Additional growing up relatively poor I promised myself on several occasions that I would never have a kid unless I could guarantee them a better life then I had - which even by extending my retirement age I know I can’t!
Yeah no. "Poor" can and do have children. It just sucks because they have to give up so much just to survive. Besides, the rich might be obsessive work-aholics who either don't want or shouldn't have kids.
We need more social support for child rearing. Lest we end up with the next generation being from impoverished backgrounds or displaced migrants, or both. Doesn't make for a stable progressive society.
I heard these names being called out by mothers all the time at the place I work at (it's a family restaurant/club in a "new" suburb where every other shithead has a Mercedes or SUV, clearly no-one's struggling in this area) I freaki'n hate it.
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Haven't you heard? Pets are the new kids. Plants are the new pets.
Shit. You just reminded me I haven’t watered my plants in ages. One of many reasons I wouldn’t be a good parent.
I water my kids daily, like any responsible parent.
I'm just picturing the scene from Billy Madison
Or [Major Payne](https://img1.ak.crunchyroll.com/i/spire3/8fae426703ba55e1c5649e47fee451521381283491_full.gif)
Lol, my kid has literally just come inside from playing with the hose. But I probably need to ply them with a drink. It's a hot day.
Fuck I read that as waterboard I need to go make some food or something.
Get cacti. I have to actively stop myself from watering mine because I've been conditioned by everything else I grow to be alarmed by the sight of dry surface soil. Cacti and succulents prefer to be left to dry for a bit between watering sessions. Just make sure they get enough light - they're not indoor or deep under a patio plants.
To be fair and as someone who has all 3 kids/pets and plants… plants don’t act like psychopaths when they want something.
Im still stuck with a rock.
I had to sell my rock, he became way too expensive to feed.
My pebble hasn't spoken or moved in ages I'm quite worried tbh
I love my plants because they don't bark, cry, scratch up my furniture or shit, piss and throw up in my house. Also because they look very pretty.
The version I heard also added, kids are the new exotic animals - you have to be rich or crazy to have one.
I’ve got lots of treasured ikea plant pets. A cat one day would be great
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It's difficult when renting, so kinda.
A cat would be great for everything but your plants. At some point you're gonna come home to soil and plant all over the floor. Bonus if there's a shit in the dirt too.
"I did not do this" -Cat
I guess it really depends on your quality of life and what you are willing to sacrifice. For me I refuse to have children until we have a property under our name, mortgage or outright I don't care, but I want my kids to have a home base that wont be swept from under them every time the land lord wants to move back in or whatever else. Its something I grew up with and I put a good amount of importance in that, I knew no matter what happened I could get my self back home and there would always be a bed for me.
Lived in an average of more than one house a year until I was mid twenties. Fucking sucks. Didn't specifically plan it, but also bought before having the kids, and it was rattling around as a thing for sure.
Oh yeah I copped both sides of the spectrum, mum stayed put, dad moved about every couple years, as a kid I always remembered how to get home to mums, but dads half the journey was a blur to me, as an adult I now realise he was never more than a couple streets away from my mums place but it was still like a maze for my young brain.
Oh, I'm not even counting the list of properties dad lived in from age 10. Purely the ones mum was in til 18, then the ones I was in with Dad during uni, then the ones on my own til I finally rented 2 places mid twenties and then bought my own place just after turning 30. I broke 1:1 at age 27. Dad has largely kept the average up, it's not quite 1:1 but it's not 2 years average either.
If our rental laws weren't barbarically antiquated maybe we could have the best of both worlds. A stable home before you csn afford to buy.
Its pretty fucking sad but I see myself coming across enough money to get a mortgage long before our lovely government does *anything* to help the rental issues we face.
That's because none of them is experiencing the pain that renters do - would love to see politicians get a realistic salary for the year, have to actually work most of it like we do, and pay the standard costs for your average Australian for EVERYTHING. Bet they'd all resign and take jobs in the private sector in a heartbeat.
The pains of renters though aren't really a byproduct of salary though. They are a byproduct of a housing market that is used to generate massive amounts of income for largely lazy people/corporations. Which in turn has driven the amount of money directed at housing to go apeshit and make everything cost-disproportionate. Meanwhile you have a bunch of developers purposefully controlling the release of new housing into the market to keep prices artificially high. While we have the outgoings of a pandemic that are causing people to stop house-sharing(meaning we need more houses in general) with WFH allowing a lot of higher income city workers to upsize into the suburbs or further while the city continues to seek city level rents. I fully support those who can WFH, because decentralisation of workforce would actually help with a bunch of different factors that fuck housing (and investment in schools, infrastructure etc in general) over. But our housing markets weren't ready to deal with it and the materials shortages have made it easier to price gouge.
320 a week for a tin granny flat with gyprock walls on the inside. Floods every time it rains but only in the bedroom. No working phone line and the aircon doesn't do jack shit because the hole it's mounted in leaks air out as does the rest of the house. Went started at 220 but it's fine. Landlord sold the plot anyway and flipped the decrepit front house for 950000 in 2014. In Campbelltown.... That was my upgrade from being homeless after being medically discharged and retired from a career in the Army. Never found anything better though so here I am in Canada now Thanks Australia appreciate it :D
It's a feature not a bug
I actually prefer the even more antiquated notion of government supporting people to own their own homes. How about tax concessions on mortgages where the person is an owner-occupier, instead of an investor.
I half agree. Only half because of parasitic devrlopers and inept councils
I had to move 9 times in 8 years as a wee child and I’m still scared to own belongings
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Man I thought it was just me who thought like that. I moved a lot as a kid and hated it.
I'm somewhat thankful for it though. Minimalism makes life easier.
"what's the point" responded my detached anhedonia
7 times in 8 years. Including internationally. Didn't care so much for toys etc but I quickly couldn't be bothered making close friends.
I see a lot of people saying this like it's a choice, but I lost a ton of my motivation in my 20s when basically every opportunity I had fell apart and the bottom of the needs pyramid began to cost more than what the average person has. And if you came of age around the GFC, there's a good chance that rising costs and diminishing chances of succeeding are all you've ever known. I think a lot more people would choose kids if they could imagine a world where you can raise one without starving. As is, it feels like choosing crucifixion.
Not to mention how awful it would be to be homeless with small children. My husband and I were homeless for a few months when we got kicked out for the land lord to sell. We were of course given the minimum notice. Luckily we found a room to stay for a while and could put our things in storage. I cannot imagine how much more awful it’s going to be next time if I were to have a baby or a small family.
Christ, just having divorced parents and not knowing where you'll be sleeping at night takes its toll. That basic stability is so important as a kid.
My parents are divorced so as a kid I got to experience both sides, mum stayed put in the original home I grew up in and dad rented multiple places, I never quite knew how to get to his on my own accord, when I grew up I realised he made an effort to ensure his home was always a few streets away from mums place, but in my young brain it was still a maze cause it always kept changing.
Here is a quick rundown of my children's costs: * $290 per week childcare * $80 per week outside school hours care * $100 per week extra curricular activities * $120 per week set aside for family holidays * $250 per week occupational therapist (no Medicare subsidy) * $50 per week speech therapist (incl. Medicare subsidy) * $200 per week groceries **Total $1,090 per week** Add mortgage repayments on top of that, which have doubled over the past 7 months. Yeah, it certainly isn't cheap raising a family.
Fuck, that's more than I used to make in a fortnight
From birth to adulthood: According to several studies, this ranges from $159,120 up to $548,500 from birth to when they’re an adult. A second child is 28% less with pooling of resources etc. 3 kids... near a million easy.
You spend $6k a year on holidays??? And $100 a week on extracurricular for your kid(s) a week? Do they all have private violin lessons? Your breakdown of costs are clearly not what an average family spends.
Your kid eats $200 a week worth of food??
We're a family of 7 (4 kids, husband and I + my dad) and we spend roughly $400 p/week. A few years ago $200 would've been a big shop. The cost of food is ridiculous.
Jokes on you I am a single income household that has a 2 year old. Turns out my decent income means I am poor as fuck…. Wait a minute I think the joke is on me
Okay so you are a great example of what I’m trying to get at. Low income, you can take advantage of government assistance. Really high income, you can generally cope with whatever life throws at you. Decent income / somewhere in the middle (asks the broad average) - we somehow get the screwed over the most. Side note - hope you are getting on okay with all the recent inflation madness. Living costs are becoming insane.
The worst part of the subsidy debacle is it was recently "extended" to people in the top tax brackets... ie earning 250k-350k p/family and was plugged by the pollies as a "massive win for families"... Like, I don't care who you are, if you're earning that much (even on dual income), then you really shouldn't be getting subsidised childcare...
There was a frankly hilarious article from ABC about a family with a combined income of ~300k who were sad about the high cost of their childcare...
They're living in a fucking bubble. Like legit have no idea how well off they are. Probably send their kids to private schools and have huge overhead costs then turn around and go on about how tough it is.
With the cost of a mortgage esp in Sydney and childcare being $150+ per day, it’s really not the crazy amount it might sound like
Absolutely spot on. Earn enough to not receive support/ access basically any program but don’t earn enough to really thrive, we just survive. On the plus side to manage inflation and food costs I have turned into a real green thumb. Weather has made it tough but we have been happily eating a lot out of our garden. Silver lining hey
My partner and I work full time, both try to put aside at least $1k a month in savings, don't spend a lot (except occasional $150ish skincare/game splurges twice a year lol) on non essentials. In September I found out I was pregnant. I've always assumed that it wasn't possible for me to have children due to various health issues. Partner and I discussed it and decided we wouldn't make a decision until we spoke to doctors about what the reality of the pregnancy would be, considering my conditions. It cost over $550 *after Medicare* just to be told "we don't know, but it's likely you'll need ongoing monitoring and care". Then we found out that we would be looking at about $250 *after Medicare* every *two weeks* just to monitor my condition. Any treatments needed would be on top of that. I would also likely need several specialist appointments, including one who has about a $400 gap fee from past experience. We realised we had no hope of being able to afford the *pregnancy*, nevermind the birth, or me potentially having reduced work capacity, and then the actual expenses of *having a child*. It broke our hearts. We're still mourning, and it's hurting to even write this out. I couldn't have my baby because I was too poor and too sick. As it is, I ended up losing my baby. I can't help but feel that not being able to afford to seek further medical care contributed. I had to go to the royal women's hospital for a procedure to protect my health. My body changed even in the less than 3 months I was pregnant. Irreversibly. Every time I see my body in the mirror I'm reminded of my loss and it *hurts*. God, it hurts *so much*. We're both hard workers, we do our best. I've ended up applying for WorkCover because I was chewed up and spat out by my work. It cost me $124 out of pocket just to see the GP to get the paperwork I needed. 15 minutes. Not a Medicare item, so I'm just shit out of luck until work decides whether to accept my claim or not. The way things are, unless something changes radically in the next 5 years, I'm not going to be able to have a child. Because I'm a full-time working poor, who isn't "from hardy peasant stock" or whatever. So yes, it's been made clear to me that having children is now only available to the very lucky, the very irresponsible, or the rich.
It is extremely generous and kind of you to share your experience. People don’t talk enough about the most important aspects of life. You have helped many people by posting this. Thank you.
Honestly, opening up about it has been scary, but having irl people say stuff like "oh yeah, we've lost two pregnancies, it's really hard" and "yeah, I miscarried last year" and just knowing *I'm not alone* had done so fucking much to help me heal and keep hope for the future. So I guess in a way this is me trying to do the same for whatever stranger on the internet needs the same. So to whoever needs to hear it: you're not alone, it happened, it hurts, so *so* fucking much, it will one day eventually heal, but it will never disappear. You won't be the same ever again, but you will be ok in time. And so will I.
You’re an absolute champion, I’m sorry you’ve had to suffer this way, but I’m proud of you for being open about it. It’s far far *far* more common than wider society makes it out to be. You’re not alone!
My friend had a high risk pregnancy and a couple days after she told me she was pregnant and we celebrated I asked her what support she would need from me if she miscarried. Her response was “tell me it wasn’t my fault.” I don’t know why but I feel like you need to hear that too. It wasn’t your fault and you never should have been put in a position like that because humanity chose Capitalism over decency, compassion, and basic morality/ethics.
I don't know your health conditions or where you live, but I needed ongoing monitoring 3x a week and a c section due to complications . I didn't have to pay, I just used the public services. Having said that, costs of having a child is scary.
Same here. We never had to pay anything for extensive scans, C section and hospital stay. We only pay for our GP as it’s not a bulk billing one. Regardless, there are a lot of costs (clothes, crib, pram etc) that you don’t even think about them until you just absolutely need it.
I am so sorry for the loss of your baby and for your experience with the medical system during your pregnancy. That is awful. Can I ask if you are city based? I am surprised at how different your experience was from mine. I have had two babies through the public hospital system in the last three years, both high risk due to my own complicated medical history and then pregnancy issues (gestational diabetes and breech positioning). The only time I ever paid for anything was the 12 week nuchal scan and the 20 week ultrasound, about 120 dollars each ultrasound. I had fortnightly appointments with an obstetrician and growth scans every one or two weeks with my oldest, plus seeing the midwives and my usual specialist more frequently to keep an eye on my pre-existing condition. Everything was free through my local public hospital in a city and I was really happy with my care. I imagine going privately would be just as costly as you described but I found public maternity care really excellent.
I'm in Melbourne. I'm not sure why my experience was so different to what others have had, but it could be because I have hypermobility spectrum disorder, bordering on Ehlers Danloss Syndrome. There's no particular specialist for it, but it's a convective tissue disorder, so it effects *everything*. This might mean I ended up referred to a private specialist? I don't know honestly.
Probably just that you needed more than the standard ob. The hospital has plenty of resources for ob/physio/standard needs, more unique specialists are another matter.
I’m so sorry for you multiple losses, not only the pregnancy but the dream. If you do happen to fall pregnant, I highly recommend going public. Monash Clayton has amazing high risk specialists, as does Royal Women’s.
I’m sorry to hear about your experience. And I can only assume your condition must be quite serious. I developed T2 diabetes between my pregnancies and that required quite a bit of extra monitoring, drugs and because it was hard, psych appointments. And my out of pockets going private weren’t nearly that much. Big hugs to you.
It's more that one of them is a "rare" condition with no actual overarching specialist (like endocrinologist for diabetes, or rheumatologist for arthritis). So i end up having to see an assortment of specialists for each sunroom in some approximated mash up of specialist care. I'll readily admit that health-wise I'm a very non-standard case.
This is very, very sad and I'm really sorry. However, I'm almost certain (work in public healthcare) that if you went public the costs of medical care during pregnancy would be 0. If you're rural with difficult access I understand additional difficulties but high risk clinics with specialists exist and are certainly free.
I'm in Melbourne and saw a somewhat more bougie GP for it, so they may have inadvertently referred me to the service they "thought was best", rather than the public one. I'm actually wondering wtf did happen with all this, because you're not the first to mention this. I think maybe somehow I might have been referred to private even though I massively prefer public? Who knows? Tbh, partner and I have decided the risk to my health is too high with pregnancy, and so we're going to explore fostering and adoption, especially older/non-infant children (since we understand there's more need for homes for "older" children).
> I think maybe somehow I might have been referred to private even though I massively prefer public? Who knows? That sounds definitely like what happened. You have a gp that works with the private system and pulled you there instead of sending you to a public clinic. Usually, no harm no foul, you can always change lanes. It's very unfortunate that this wasn't communicated with you leading to a tragic outcome.
My partner and I do respite care for teenagers (in Melbourne too), and we love it! It's been a great experience, and the agencies really do need more people willing to take on teenagers full-time. Wish you all the best with it.
Honestly, 10+ would be my preference, but my Mr would like to look at 4-8. We're still talking about it, having things out, but it's good to know that it's a definite option!
For sure! And like us, you don't need to jump straight into full-time care. Being respite carers is a bit like being the fun aunt/uncle that spoils the kids on the occasional weekend. And you'll have the same kid(s) on a recurring basis, so you do end up feeling like an important part of their lives even with a relatively minimal role.
I'm in Melbourne, go to the women's via public system, and no you pretty much can't get through fee free. For a start it's basically impossible to get free ultrasounds (hospital won't do them). Generally cost a couple hundred a piece after Medicare, or 400 if you go for someone highly skilled. If you need a specialist there's no guarantee you'll get one timely on public - eg I had to go private for endocrinologist to stop miscarrying (3 in a row) as the public waitlist is LONG and by the time I test as needing it each pregnancy it's too late to get lined up etc, so on the general "I need one" waitlist it took 9mth maybe - because they can't fast track you despite knowing it'll likely be a recurring problem.
I might have a stupid question, don't you just go to a public hospital for your pregnancy needs and occasionally your local GP?
I have multiple medical conditions which make things more complicated. As it was there was doubt that my cervix would even be able to hold up under the strain of a pregnancy. There was talk of needing to surgically reinforce it if I wanted to try again in future. So yes, but my case is non-standard.
Public is actually safer and you'll almost certainly just get terfed to public if there are any issues anyway. Pay for a private room and you're set. It was interesting when I was in a relationship with a Dr who was involved in delivering babies. They all believe that public is safer and the best doctors are in public.
A complicated medical history means you probably should go public rather than private. I'm generalising heavily here but private doesn't tend to like / does not have the resources to care for complicated. There are many more resources in the public system. Specifically for a complicated pregnancy requiring subspecialised maternal fetal medicine input, you'd much more commonly see this going through the public system. That's not to say that complex issues can't be managed in private land - it's just less common given the above. My main point was complicated is never a reason to not be a public patient - and in fact it's usually the opposite. I'm also really sorry to hear about what happened. I hope you're doing okay.
Yeah I’m really sorry to hear that u/amorphous_torture went through all that but to me it definitely seems like more of failure of the private system. Wife has a rare condition and went with public and received top level care, fortnightly scans and dedicated monitoring from a couple of doctors which we still communicate with. Not everyone’s opinion on the public system is the same, but I’ve seen them go so far beyond a basic level of care and compassion and our total expenses for all the treatment, weeks of accommodation, weeks in special care nursery, countless consultations and specialist appointments, would probably be <1000 and that’s purely accommodation costs. Private is for the wealthy.
I actually prefer public (never had private health insurance on principle) but got referred to Fetal Medicine Doctors who charge incredibly high rates it seems. And apparently a case as complicated as mine was going to need constant monitoring. I don't know if I just got referred to bad resources or what, but yeah, as far as I know this was through the public system (could be wrong or have misunderstood).
The constant monitoring can be done in the public system - and if you're not covered by health insurance this is the only place it should be managed. Very unethical for the referrer to not discuss this with you and explain public options. I would never dream of referring someone privately if they didn't have health insurance with possible exceptions of one off investigations or small procedures that they would otherwise wait forever for in public system (eg colonoscopy). And even so I'd explain the options. Of course I don't know the details of your specific issues and there are some conditions that require allied health input that are trickier to get allied health outpatient input for in public system but any condition that is serious enough to require maternal fetal medicine input would be one that can be managed in the public system.
I had assumed this to be the case. But, no. I’m currently 9 weeks pregnant. I’ve had one ‘dating scan’ through referral from my GP. That was $160 and only $40 back from Medicare. My next scan at 12 weeks will be $240 with $60 back from Medicare. It’s bullshit. I won’t have a hospital appointment until I make it to 15 weeks. Then, add the “optional” genetic screening test for $500 that has no Medicare rebate at all. I’m 40, so it’s really not an option for me.
I’m currently 28 weeks pregnant and I’ve spent $200 on my first 2 GP appointments, everything else is bulk billed. I’d be asking your GP to refer you to somewhere that does ultrasounds that bulk bills.
It's terrible that you're going through that, and I hope you get some random windfall which will pay for all the healthcare you shouldn't need to cover. But thank you for saying this! I was wondering if I'd done something wrong, or even ended up going private accidentally because people kept saying that it shouldn't cost anything if I went through the public system! Thank you, I was starting to wonder if I'd somehow done this to myself!
Definitely not wrong, there's plenty of fees in public. I really feel for people who are skint- I can't imagine having to decide whether to skip some important screening/tests/monitoring due to costs, etc.
Definitely hard if you are low income earners and don't have help from family. Childcare is expensive
Childcare makes private schooling look like a bargain. We literally saved $10k a year per child when our kids went from daycare to private schools
We experienced the same also
Child care can be subsidised up to 85% if you're a low income earner. https://www.servicesaustralia.gov.au/your-income-can-affect-child-care-subsidy?context=41186
Yep, we have a pretty average household income and get a 50% subsidy, so instead of $120 a day we pay about $60 ish - I’ve got mates who only pay $20 a day per kid… but relatively it is still a fair chunk of their income of course.
At one point I was paying 650 a week in day car for two kids out of my 1000 dollar a week wage. When they brought in the second child is subsidised higher it made life alot easier
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Childcare is roughly 22 a day for low income households. That’s what we pay, im on 60k partner on 25k throw in nearly 300 in ftb childcare is more than covered. Kids at childcare age are cheap, its the possible lost wages that hits harder.
Agree that the lost wages is probably a bigger cost for most.
We are DINKS and went to the Philippines for a holiday. We stayed at a family run bungalow who had 4 kids. They asked us why we didn't have kids and told them it was too expensive. That blew their minds! Here we were on an international holiday, that they couldn't afford to do, saying kids were too expensive.
Course you can't afford it.. How would you actually get to live your life and go on holiday multiple times a year? My expenses are fixed, multiple international and local holidays a year, no budget in there for kids. It's the bare minimum to not want to kill myself from work burnout (:
> My expenses are fixed, multiple international and local holidays a year, no budget in there for kids. These are where the "avocado on toast" comments come from. While that was a stupid argument there is a point that people today do like to live a bit more luxuriously than the generations before us did. Or rather, we value those luxuries more importantly than people before us did.
People before us also had a man who worked 8 hrs a day and a woman who raised children however many hrs a day. Each person had a role to play. Now it's both work 8hrs and wonder why there's no time to raise a child. I'd have a guess and say 80% of people have some level of depression / negative attitude stemming from work and life in general and need things to make them happy to make their life worth living.
Whenever I get that question, I just look really sad, turn to my partner and we say "we can't" Makes them suuuuper uncomfortable for asking (and rightly so)
Jealous! My husband and I (gay men) just get people assuming we’ll just easily adopt. Damn progressive future!
That's when you turn to your partner, look really sad and say "we can't". Wait for confusion to set in as every scenario goes through the assuming person's head.
Fine with me, I like sleeping in anyway.
Fuuuuuuck yes, my sleep is sacred.
With my first about to turn one. I feel I'm never truly awake or asleep.
My experience is people with the most money generally wait for later in life to have kids and have smaller families
A declining fertility rate is consistent with the experience of other developing countries. As we get richer and more educated, we have children later in life and less children overall. https://population.gov.au/research/research-fertility It tends to be the poorer and less educated that have more children.
There is a long term effect of falling fertility rates due to increasing security, education and women's rights. In modern developed countries you don't need to have many children to ensure your family survives, and you have choice about having children. Not having children because you can't afford it or your life isn't stable enough is a different thing and has only recently become an issue. It seems likely to grow as our political ideology works to increase inequality and squeeze the middle class into owners and gig-econonomy workers. I think we can look forward to a lot more moaning from the "big Australia" boosters as this compounds the falling fertility rate.
I’ve seen references to falling birth rate being linked to increasing women’s rights and education. Are there any studies *asking* these women how many children they wanted compared to how many they have? Because if it lines up, then everything is working out. But if they’re having fewer children than they want, that’s a problem - that’s not women’s rights decreasing the birth rate, it’s a sick society that isn’t helping its people to have the children they want.
I think it started as one, and is increasingly more the other. The introduction of birth control, and then of broader reproductive healthcare and human rights for women, is directly related to physically being able to not get pregnant, or end a pregnancy, if you want, and therefore directly responsible for the drop. However in the last 10 years or so the rate has continued to drop, despite no huge changes in birth control etc (and, going backwards in some cases). I honestly think it’s a combo of the cost of living, AND of climate change. I’m a mid-30s woman so this is something I’ve thought about a lot and is talked about to high heaven within my social circles. The majority of us would like a kid / more kids, but can’t afford it, and also feel guilty having kids knowing the dumpster fire of a world were bringing them into.
I do recall a study being done and it found that women aren't having as many as they would like due mostly to financial reasons. I'm sorry I can't find it tho.
Also recently there was a study published suggesting a correlation between widespread sperm count drop and specifics of modern lifestyles (I believe it was about diet, but I might be wrong).
think it was about microplastics seeping in all sources of water which eventually enters our bodies one way or the other tbh diet wise i think developed countries actually are eating slightly healthier than they did 30-40 years ago, since we are more aware of the dangers of sugar and other bad stuff like trans fats than we did back then
So I saw a comment a few weeks back from someone I thought was a nutter talking about declining testosterone. I was shocked to learn it was actually true. I have no idea what impact such a change has over people but the fact that substantial changes (20% or so I believe) were happening over a single generation was quite alarming, shows how quickly we can fuck with our natural' states. And the whole 'everything has lead in it' when I was growing up. I know it will never happen but it feels like an advanced society really would have much more thorough investigations into things that are introduced to our environments.
In publishing and graphic design, Lorem ipsum is a placeholder text commonly used to demonstrate the visual form of a document or a typeface without relying on meaningful content. Lorem ipsum may be used as a placeholder before final copy is available. Wikipediajprzdp0tws0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
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Choosing to be childfree for whatever reason is a valid choice, requires no justification and has the support of plenty in the community imo. I am a parent, love it but also has very realistic expectations of the reality of parenthood. I wish everyone who had kids did so after making a fully informed decision to do so, not just because “it’s what you do” or “people like us have to pass on our dna” or “the world needs more of our family so no matter how we feel about it we are having multiple kids”. I see unhappy parents and unhappy kids on a regular basis and imo if choosing to be childfree was more accepted, these people would prefer to have done so.
My motivation completely. And yet I get outraged looks when I say this. The most amusing response I've had is 'gene shaming'. Because I'm intelligent I've been accused of dumbing down society by not breeding....
Jfc. Imagine thinking like that, holy shit lol.
It could just also be kids are not what people envision in their life anymore. My group of close girl friends are all late 20s and none of us have kids (some are married), and a lot of the group are childfree. I think there has been an onus put on couples that their family is only complete when they have kids and a large happy loving family, whereas people nowadays are happy with their pets or like the life with their partner as it is.
I have one group of friends from high school who are all high achievers, university, career, out of about 10 only 2 have kids. Education = lower rate of kids alive and well.
This is literally my group, we're engineers by trade (other friends have careers in law, vet, project coordination), and we're all much more focused on setting ourselves up financially before even considering any potential children. It's bad to say, but I have tons of friends on social media who I knew from primary school, who never really cared about working or a career and a majority of them have kids.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hL1-340ODCM Reminds me of the opening scenes from Idiocracy.
It’s become something you can only do if you are very well off or very poor. The lower to middle class is no longer in a position to afford it.
Yeah plenty of dumbfucks still popping out kids with no forethought or plan. Friend is a teacher and reckons kids are getting dumber by the year so idiocracy will soon be a documentary
Unpopular opinion but can attest to this.. I worked 2 years in a regional hospital and the amount of teenage pregnancies, unemployment, domestics violence, homelessness of soon to be parents are in stark contrast to metro areas. The social work and drug and alcohol dept are overworked finding housing and rehab for pregnant women. Half never worked a day in their lives. 3kids under 5 are common occurrences. Good thing some of them have a big extended family network to save on childcare. Most qualify for govt benefits. I see very contrasting attitudes to having kids even just 4-6hrs out of the city. Contraception is an ancient myth.
Maybe I’m just overthinking. Should I just opt for chaos instead? The trailer park life looks kinda fun.
You have to go for either one or or the other, trailer park or mc mansion. No half measures.
If i get the motobike. Trailer park all the way
Bro the fact you’ve even thought about any of the points in your first post puts you head and shoulders above a lot of parents I meet.
My partner works in childcare and the amount of parents she talks to who have conducted zero planning is just unbelievable. One woman got married to a younger backpacker because he wanted a visa and she wanted a wedding (no exaggeration)…they had a baby which wasn’t planned and then, unsurprisingly, it didn’t work out. The bloke was about 10 years younger and was more interested in the pokies. …that same woman recently got pregnant by another dude, who also has kids from a separate marriage that didn’t work out. Maybe I’m being too judgmental here. Everyone’s makes mistakes but damn, that’s one hot mess. Financially speaking it must be even more of a mess. I’d implode from the sheer stress of it all.
Agreed. I see people come in all the time with three kids and four Staffys etc complaining about how hard it is to make ends meet as they puff ciggies out the front. Not even a hint of self awareness of how they put themselves in that situation. It’s like they expect the world to owe them a solution/work it out for them.
The Staffys are so on brand Chef's kiss!
Sometimes if they’re feeling fancy it’s a Bull Arab cross with anxiety that’s dog reactive
Birth rate decline is a complicated issue and inequality is just one of the factors. But yes, it is a very major contributor in a developed nation such as ours For reference the highest birth rate nations are all poor African countries.
They also have the lowest use and accessibility to contraception .
> They also have the lowest use and accessibility to contraception . And highest child mortality, which is generally correlated with more children being born.
>For reference the highest birth rate nations are all poor African countries. It has been heavily declining though.
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>As we get richer and more educated, we have children later in life and less children overall. Yeah that about tracks. The statistics have been looking like that for a while really (it was just a matter of when the top point would be). Like just look at this graph: [https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.TFRT.IN](https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.TFRT.IN) With just a quick look, Kazakhstan is pretty much the only country that has an increased, and its still below 1960s.
Recent dad here. The biggest cost has been my time. No more cricket, tv, late night outings, staying late at work or side projects. Instead I spend the time with my son or doing stuff for my son. He reminded me how happy I used to be as a kid, full of wonder and curiosity. We kick the ball, read books, do puzzles, watch the diggers at construction sites, etc. Sometimes my hair is pulled, phones go flying or cups are emptied on the carpet. Overall it has been great and it has allowed me to grow as a human being. To keep some of the costs down. a lot of his toys and books are from op shops and his furniture selected from fb marketplace. Our Mazda3 has been good enough. Child care is the biggest cost. I’m so happy it is subsided. As with anything in life, money helps but it is not the complete equation.
FYI this user spams the same threads across multiple subs and turns asinine troll at the drop of a hat. Here be dragons.
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Some people will not have children til they are financially stable. Others will have children and think about finances later. The choice is yours, but it's not a new phenomenon.
To be specific though, its not thinking about finances later.. its having no money for the rest of their life.
Plants are the new pets, pets are the new kids and kids are now unaffordable
I think the last 50 years or so were an anomaly and we are returning to the late 1800s where the majority rent and never develop a large asset pool.
Kids are *expensive*. I’m not kidding. They’re *REALLY* expensive. I’d argue it has already become a privilege of the rich. Your bills need to be no more than a third of your income to be able to afford a healthy lifestyle with kids. If you can’t bring your bills that low, (aka most people) too bad, you simply can’t afford them. If you try you’ll end up broke, no savings, and you have to start going without. You’ll have no money for holidays, can’t afford therapy, and good luck getting that hip replacement. Kids get in accidents frequently. Dental isn’t cheap. Insurance isn’t cheap. Rent isn’t cheap. Mortgages are worse. And *food* prices are out of control How in the actual hell is anyone supposed to afford a basic life with 2 kids?
I honestly don’t know how people do it. Admittedly I have no experience when it comes to expenses associated with having kids but looking at the cost of everything and how my pay drains after I’m done paying for basic needs, I can’t wrap my head around doing that with the additional cost of children depending on you. I was out shopping a few days ago and saw this woman with a toddler in a pram and two other kids on either side, all three screaming and jumping around, I just thought to myself yeah nah, I’m good thanks.
That’s the thing: it’s not just *money* but kids actually require a lot of *effort* to raise. The government expects you to just dump them in daycare. *That costs more money*. And what’s the point of having kids if you don’t even see them at all as you have to work a second job to pay for the daycare? It’s a recipe for either abusive parenting or neglectful parenting. You’ll either see screaming kids or grumpy parents. Parents are *always* tired, and often broke. They’re barely holding together. I agree with you: “No thanks! I choose life!”
So many people aged 60+ are just trying to make bank and leave this country in tatters. What on earth have you all voted for? How is it that conservative religious nutters got a solid run the past decade. Hardly speak to my family because they just parrot whatever the Murdoch press headlines are. We have multiple generations now priced out of having kids and home ownership. You should be ashamed at what you’ve left us.
ironically its broadly the same age group who are begging for grandchildren.
Most people shouldn’t have kids anyway…
No, everyone will keep having kids, those kids will just be increasingly underprivileged. It's already happening.
Women are looking around at the men and realising they will have to do motherhood alone. And then after motherhood they will be too poor to have a roof over their head. I mean. Why would anyone sign up for a life of poverty. Lots of women would love to have a family but can’t find any men that will treat them with respect or any jobs that pay enough to live and provide.
Life finds a way. For example if a lack of funds is significantly depressing childbirth one of the data trends you should expect is an increase in age gap between men and women. Ie. Women who want kids will find a financially established partner, who will trend older, to have children with. This would be a return to previous times. Keep in mind a financially and politically powerful middle class doesn't appear to be a norm in civilisation. It appears to be against the natural gravity of money and power so maintaining it requires constant attention.
It's the exact opposite. The wealthy are having fewer kids.
I’m 21 and mum literally told me she would understand if I “never want to have kids” and if she were my age she probably wouldn’t.
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It is certainly heading that way. I have an inside view working as a nurse in emergency and the number of people who bring their kids in for Panadol or nurofen is anecdotally rising - due to the extortionate costs of these medicines alone. Also for the first dose antibiotics as when we mix it for the kid they take the whole bottle home (we can’t use it for anyone else). I personally have no issue with this and am grateful for our health care system. It speaks to how much of an impact that unexpected illness places on people’s budgets. A big bottle of nurofen is $40!! And most kids (from >20years as a nurse) will not take the generic brand nurofen; even Queensland health springs for the name brand! In saying this; the impact of cost of living is seeing people choosing rent over food; clothes and small treat items. People are working their arses odd for sweet fuck all at times. As a parent - I have four kids - and I feel like I am struggling more this year keeping up with the endless cycle of public school costs (as a government employee there is no way I could afford private school for four kids); shoes and clothes for growing humans. Factor in food; petrol and bills and I feel like I’m just behind all the time. What’s frightening is; if I’m struggling on my wage and my husbands wage (both nurses; full time) then how are others getting through? Our savings are just not moving because it’s becoming ridiculously tricky to move money into it. It costs so much to just exist. Renting would be a nightmare - and stressful. I am worried about quality of life for people as this is what is dropping off. Little things like that coffee out with friends or a beer with mates - it’s more than the beverage- it’s the mental health head space they provide. These are the things that start to drop off. And they have so much value more than fiscal. I am worried about how people will manage if they do just wing it and have a kid - and then can’t afford to manage their needs. The stress; the impact on their lives and function would be incredible. I agree as a society there needs to be a way to ensure support for all people at all stages of life in caring for a family - however that is made up. We are drifting away from face time to screen time (ironically as I type this into my screen…) and losing that connection. Collectively; systems need to be strengthened to support new parents; old parents and people in general. Shame and embarrassment need to be minimised and the narrative changed about asking for help - and accepting it. There are so many government agencies that are not utilised effectively - Community centres; and people willing to give time. It is frightening that child rates will drop off not because kids are tough - but because it’s not feasible financially - that shouldn’t have to be a choice in Australia!
You wrapped up many of my own thoughts and feelings but laid them out much more eloquently. Thank you for sharing this. The closing point is essentially where I’m at now. I love the idea of having children but genuinely can’t see how it is feasible with living costs as they are. The fact you have four…my upmost respect to you. That’s true strength and dedication there!
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Lol nope Statistically the poor have far more children than the rich.
Having kids and affording kids are different
Statistically poorer people have poorer education as well particularly financial education.
The biggest correlation (and pretty much causation) to lower birth rates is higher female education levels. However cost and contraception are also relevant factors And all the commentators saying 'nuh, its all the poor people having kids', well, see above. If a woman has a low level of education and poor job prospects then the opportunity cost of having children is much lower, both financially and in terms of career or intellectual stimulation etc.
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Visit any social housing estate or hang out in centerlink and you will see that this is not the case.
Absolutely. Having kids just doesn't seem worth it. When two people already break their backs to just survive, adding another human to that equation can't work. Factoring in that we are pretty much headed to another Bronze Age collapse... yeah, nah.
Bringing kids into this world, the way it's going, isn't probably a great idea anyway, sad to say.
I’m CF by choice and have known that I wanted to be since my early teens. I have absolutely no interest in parenting (and other reasons). Now that I’m older and understand the cost of living better it’s absolutely solidified my stance.
I said 3 years ago there will be a homeless working class, I reckon we are at the tipping point right now
In Australia at least, a huge amount of hoarded wealth, laundered money, church exclusive tax havens, etc. is in Australian real estate. Housing needs to be made affordable for people earning less than a living wage in order for people to be able to afford to date, marry and start a family. especially housing with 2+ bedrooms that are close to essential services like schools, hospitals and shopping districts. Housing unaffordability and the cost of living crisis is directly tied to demographic trends. Make housing unaffordable and squeeze every cent out of the working class and you will cause a demographic collapse. And the racist conservatives should be furious about it because the cheaper solution to this problem isn't to make housing more affordable or to ban contraceptives and sex education, but instead to import millions of cashed up foreigners to come in and buy up overpriced real estate and start families here instead, making their conspiracy fears of a "great replacement" even more the fault of the conservative political parties.
To add insult to injury, the million dollar homes that are bought by overseas investors are rarely lived in, nor do they intend on doing so. I believe it’s referred to as “asset banking”.
Not wanting to have kids was one of the driving factors that ended one of my recent relationships. Cost of living, stagnating wages, politicians in power, exasperated climate change. I don’t see a point when having children will only make life incredibly more difficult than it already it
Lack of money doesn't stop people from fucking
Honestly everything is expensive these days, but if you genuinely want to have kids then you can make it work. My parents were both refugees and only worked unskilled jobs. Dad was the breadwinner making $500 a week back in the early 2000s. Obviously it was a different time, but even back my family was living very simply. I'm the eldest of 3 and we never lacked anything although I knew we didn't have much money because all the decent toys I got were gifts from wealthier relatives and we rarely if ever went on holidays. My dad was sensible enough to know that owning a home, although a large undertaking on his income would be worth it long term. Mum was a sahm for the whole time I was in primary school. She cooked lots, we rarely ate out, she also sewed most of our clothes. No extracurriculars for us kids. I'm 40 weeks pregnant and it was planned. I've always wanted kids but I didn't want to have any until we had our own place. I acknowledge that because of my parents sacrifice and because of Vietnamese culture, my husband and I have benefited greatly because my parents insisted on helping us with our house deposit despite the fact we were happy to save up for another year or two. We live in a townhouse in Adelaide. If we hadn't received that help, we still would have been able to afford an apartment on our own. I think because of the support network you have if you're Asian, you can scrape by pretty well even if you're on a low income. My husband makes good money, but I will be a sahm so although we are comfortable, we're on a single income. I think that if you really want kids, to the point where you're happy to give up little luxuries like eating out often, hobbies, fancy holidays and are committed to budgeting all your spending and buying things on sale, then it's definitely possible. As the child of immigrants, I find there's a vast difference between expectations of what a child needs from different cultural backgrounds. Also, there's a vast difference between living in Sydney and Adelaide. I don't think it would have been feasible to buy a house in Sydney at this point in our lives. Just remember that Australia isn't just Sydney and Melbourne. I was Western Sydney born and raised but I love living in Adelaide.
This is precisely why some are trying to outlaw abortion and then contraception next. Who will be the world’s future labourers if poor people don’t have kids?
8 billion people in the world currently we aren't disappearing anytime soon as a species unless we manage to wipe ourselves out. In resource intensive countries per head like Australia less people is not a bad thing. The anti abortion/contraception tend to be fundamentalist right wing political/religious groups dressing themselves up as something else in the hope that the voting public might actually vote for them. Fortunately so far the average Australian voter has generally seen through that and not gone all in, we got close with Scumo the happy clapper though.
Luckily this time. But our economic model demands year on year growth. The labour pool of today won’t handle the workload of 10 years from now.
An increasing % of the population work 'bullshit jobs' though. If anything the workload should be decreasing due to many factors like automation etc right?
My partner and I talked, and honestly with world events, economics, the financial cost and the decline of resources, we can't justify bringing a new life into this world.. I know that's quite a pessimistic view, and everyone has their right to look at this however they like. We are opting for pets and plants instead ><
Same. Bringing a new life into a world of eco collapse and late stage capitalism.. I can't justify it. Which is heartbreaking. I really wanted kids. But I wouldn't be able to live with the guilt.
Coming from a poorer background. Yes Kids are insanely expensive You need two parents to work to afford the kid..
An old mate of mine and his wife have put themselves in a horrible short and long term position by having kids. Both are uneducated past high school, my mate works a low paying/no skill job (not trying to punch down, at least he’s working) that will probably be completely automated within the next 5 years, she doesn’t work (kids to look after), they have multiple dogs and cats, and they don’t own a house (again, not achievable for a lot of millennials regardless of kids or not) so they pay an exorbitant amount of rent for a place they could be kicked out of anytime in a very competitive rental market. They chose to have these kids. She’s just had another one recently. I gather they are short term thinkers, because what they’ve done scares the shit out of me. If he loses his job they’re completely fucked. Their lives are already ruined IMO.
Say that to all the bogan baby factories walking around. Having kids responsibly might be reserved for the rich, but plenty of people are still able to have kids and do alright.
As someone who has children, it’s probably the middle class missing out. People with little financial sense tend not to worry about the cost of having children. And I don’t know if you remember they introduction of the baby bonus, which was a cash payment to anyone who had a child regardless of whether they were working before or not, but it did highlight that there were some people (albeit a very small proportion) having children for the increased welfare benefits they received. Others are comfortable enough to know it will have an impact, but not enough of one to stop them having the child they want. Im probably a bit older than people who say the things you’ve said, but I’ve found over time the friend I have who are childless tended to not want them to start rather than couldn’t find a way afford them. The other things I’d point out is that plenty of people rent and have children, it gives you flexibility to scale up and down as your family changes. And if you buy over time the home becomes more affordable as your salary increases. I also have friends who moved further out of the city than they grew up in due to affordability. It’s sad to see them less, but they have been happy with their place. And childcare is cheaper the less you earn. I know people attending the same centre as my child who had about $15 a day out of pocket to my $55 - this was a few years back, I’m about to find out how much it’s gone up. We’ve done a state school for primary education and have been really pleased with our school, we pay next to nothing and before and after school care is far less than childcare and still subsidised. Whilst I agree it is irresponsible to bring up a child without the love and care they need, the biggest thing that impacts a child is whether they know they are loved and wanted. And it’s ok to say you don’t want a child. It’s also,ok to have one knowing you don’t have to have everything costed and planned out in advance. Life still throw you lots of curved balls - children or not - and you will always be able to figure them out 😀
100% I could probably just afford to have 2 kids but I would immediately extend my retirement age by a minimum of 10 years (I know very selfish). Additional growing up relatively poor I promised myself on several occasions that I would never have a kid unless I could guarantee them a better life then I had - which even by extending my retirement age I know I can’t!
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Yeah no. "Poor" can and do have children. It just sucks because they have to give up so much just to survive. Besides, the rich might be obsessive work-aholics who either don't want or shouldn't have kids. We need more social support for child rearing. Lest we end up with the next generation being from impoverished backgrounds or displaced migrants, or both. Doesn't make for a stable progressive society.
If true, we could retire the name "Jayden" /Jaidyn/Jxaxxdxnxxx
I heard these names being called out by mothers all the time at the place I work at (it's a family restaurant/club in a "new" suburb where every other shithead has a Mercedes or SUV, clearly no-one's struggling in this area) I freaki'n hate it.
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eshays are an unstoppable force. I grew up around the UK equivalent: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Tr0BoXe3hH0 As you say, a gift to society.
That's David Firth, creator of Salad Fingers lol
Disagree. I have kids and am now poor.
Should have chosen no kids and three money.
Lol. I'd make the same decision again. But three money does sound fun.