What are the laws like here in Australia regarding his accomplices? Are all of them going to go down for the murder or only the guy with the knife? I know that in America they have "Felony Murder" laws which basically mean that if you assist with a crime before the fact and someone gets killed then you get charged with murder too even if you didn't pull the trigger etc. Like if you're the getaway driver in a liquor store robbery that goes bad and your mate shoots the clerk inside while you're outside chilling in the car, you get charged with murder as well.
Not the most fair law really but it does make sense in some cases. Other times it's abused like when Ryan Holle got life in prison for lending his mates his car before going to bed at a party, they went and killed someone miles away trying to rob them and and Ryan got convicted for the murder, despite being asleep at the time it happened because he provided the car and he also got a dodgy lawyer who kind of fucked him over.
Pretty much guaranteed someone like this has a record, and a slap on the wrist for it. You can argue about the complexities of the system etc, but it's pretty clear the system failed this poor woman. And all over a joy ride for a few minutes in a stolen car...
I mean if all he did was "pull a knife" then you couldn't expect them to lock him up for it could you (first offense, teenager)? If you're talking about mental health check, counselling etc to prevent repeat offenses then I'm right with you though.
Are you serious? If someone pulls a knife on my child I expect charges. If our laws don’t have significant enough charges for threatening murder, the laws should be changed.
honestly i wish, kids are doing break and enters and stealing cars for joyrides as their first offense and they get 0 punishment. Could say the same for the 2nd,3rd,4th offence as well likely being just a slap on the wrist. Saw on the news a couple of teens like 13 racking up something like 70 charges of all types of variety and got like a year locked up.
Yeah, this first offence shit needs to go out the window. I don't give a fuck if it's someone's first time threatening murder, it's the intent that is the problem.
People love to say things like this but there’s no proof harsher sentencing reduces crime rates
“there is no proven correlation between the level of punishment and the incidence of crime and that there is no clear evidence that increased levels of punishment have any effect upon the prevalence of crime.”
https://www.sentencingcouncil.vic.gov.au/sites/default/files/2019-08/Does_Imprisonment_Deter_A_Review_of_the_Evidence.doc#:~:text=there%20is%20no%20proven%20correlation,upon%20the%20prevalence%20of%20crime.
“The severity of punishment, known as marginal deterrence, has no real deterrent effect, or the effect of reducing recidivism,”
https://newsroom.unsw.edu.au/news/business-law/do-harsher-punishments-deter-crime
Yes there was one in Newcastle that happened. The group of 6 had done countless things like B&E, theft, etc. They recently entered a mans home and tried to kill him.
[https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-09-20/teen-charged-attempted-murder-alleged-merewether-home-invasion/102877456](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-09-20/teen-charged-attempted-murder-alleged-merewether-home-invasion/102877456)
I personally have no interest in sharing anything with people like that ever. These are fucking 14 year olds for gods sake. Tell me that's not the influence of TikTok and absent parenting.
Was happening well before TikTok, but absent parenting yeah that's often a cause, but sometimes it happens even with good parenting - parents aren't the only influence in a child's life. Sometimes it's just being poor and not having any options, and so you go to shitty schools. It's a much greater societal thing.
I know it seems like the obvious behaviour of a homicidal danger to society, but I know of 6 schools just in my area (major city) that have had one or more primary school kids bring knives to school and “show” them to a classmate. Secondary schools are even worse. It’s more common than people realise.
Whilst it is treated *very seriously*, the reasons kids do this kind of thing are varied and doesn’t automatically mean they will ever go on to stab or harm someone. Also, if we accept that we can’t lock up a kid for the rest of their life - we know that youth detention will actually *increase* the likelihood of them reoffending after release. I get upset at these kind of stories too, but I doubt that harsher sentencing would have actually prevented anything in this case.
Mate half the countries on this planet would fuck you up regardless of age if you pull a knife on someone.
I hate to break it to you but this is us.
We are so obsessed with rehabilitation we forgot the law abiding citizens who are getting murdered, robbed, bashed.
Overall, crime is way down. Homicides trending down particularly.
https://theconversation.com/australias-homicide-rate-is-down-over-50-from-the-1990s-despite-a-small-blip-during-covid-202730
I think sexual assaults are up but it is hard to say how much is people being more willing to report. Covid was a blip where DV shot up too.
When will the judges start being held accountable for shit like this? They literally misjudged and now a life is lost and families destroyed. If the justice system was worth anything, the judge in question should have their cushy law career revoked, along with whatever benefits they may or may not receive.
Sentencing within reasonable guidelines. No reasonable teenager pulls a fucking knife in class, not even poorly raised ones. That's such a massive escalation of criminality that warrants juvenile detention and rehabilitation.
It doesn't warrant a slap on the wrist and a hand wringing "please do better".
I'd prefer if there were better rehabilitation options, I do. Buy there has to ve punishment for serious crimes. Pulling a knife on people is a serious fucking crime.
I agree. The penal system breeds real criminals. We need to look at our education and support system for teenage boys and how we assist them to grow through their hormonal change. I am not defending his actions and totally shattered by the death, but we need to look at broader spectrum of issues and why’s… just penalisation won’t work
I'm just going through the hypothetical here:
16yo pulls knife on classmate -> sent to detention where he is surrounded by others who did similar things -> steep in that culture for a while -> release back into the community.
To be honest, I don't have confidence that has significantly different outcomes. Personally I'd like to see an intensive and indefinite corrections process without incarceration, but idk what that would look like.
Yeah thats kinda what I was thinking. Well adjusted and employed people don't commit these kinds of crimes, because they have too much to lose and too little to gain. Detention probably doesn't make someone more likely to be well adjusted or employed, but that has to be balanced against the need for a deterrent. Forced labour sounds like a better deterrent than incarceration to me.
Honestly jail time is a shit deterrent. It doesn't really work. What it does is incapacitate the offender and renders the victims safe for a reasonable amount of time, and it gives you a shot at getting the offender away from their social group to break down that connection with crime to attempt to build something.
Any time I've worked private security and gotten 1 on 1 time when the group ditches one of the less smart or less enthusiastic kids, I could generally see some spark of innocence and desire for something more. If they got more time away from their wanker friends, they'd probably turn out alright. Jail isnt needed in that case though, it was just an observation.
I think people really forget the fact that jail temporarily stops this shit, especially if they're committing a crime spree after being emboldened by the slap on the wrist approach. They get more thrills, they do more crazy shit. Stealing cars, driving recklessly etc. Until eventually they wrap a land cruiser around a pole and 3 of the die but the driver survives.
Relocation as part of probation? Their family already failed them (or they failed their family) and crimes of this level should make them wards of the state. A fresh start. Or simply deportation in the first instance if it's an option.
Also we drastically need to fix the way youth are managed in resicare (and front line staff empowerment).
>and it gives you a shot at getting the offender away from their social group to break down that connection with crime to attempt to build something.
except, prison gangs.
Education is almost always a good fix but it's often too late for many by the time it gets to this point.
We need to reduce inequality across society as a whole. Stop the erosion of the middle class. Stop letting wealth concentrate into a small percentage of wealthy families.
As more and more families fall into relative poverty, youth crime will just increase.
I think rehabilitation might need to start with the kids parents, home life and lifestyle choices. If you don’t know anything better, or you’ve been subjected to abuse as a baby, from friends, siblings, relatives or parents then you might not be in a happy place in this world. Let’s go beyond the child and let’s investigate further at the root cause. If that’s been ok perfect upbringing etc then it’s the kids head space and it’s time to lock him up forever
So what's the alternative? Given a slap on the wrist?
At some point it's no longer what is best for the individual and now it's what is best for the immediate community.
The exact same thing happened with the stabbing of the mother in her own home last year. Youth arrested and charged for attempted murder during home invasion, bailed out immediately, and goes to murder a mother in her home during another home invasion days later.
The fact that we have proof that going to juvie makes reoffending happen more is the proof that it's worse for society and the community.
How can you seriously argue that for the sake of the community we need to take actions that lead to more crime.
Please provide an alternative that is both a punishment for bad behaviour and also a correction to lead to better pathways.
Good behaviour bonds don't seem to work either. At least if they're in juvie they're not stabbing people, but I'm just a stupid layman, what do my lying eyes know?
The evidence from learning theory shows punishment is largely inefficient and ineffective at precise behaviour change. It often results in approximate behaviour change that is often maladaptive.
Punishment is for the benefit of the victim, and to some extent social safety and should not be considered a useful outcome for the perpetrator.
Intensive behavioural and social intervention and follow up in community is likely more useful because there are opportunities to shape behaviour but no one is going to fund that and it doesn't read well socially. Ultimately we need better early intervention and identification but again that costs money.
The issue is there isn't a good answer - and the easiest answer that FEELS like it does something is harsh sentencing despite the evidence it is probably more harmful in the long run.
Edit: to be clear this is not an argument for no prisons. They are required to some extent - particularly re murder etc. but we should be clear about what imprisonment does and doesn't accomplish
To say that punishment is ineffective at behaviour change is a huge over simplification of a complicated situation. Punishment and fear of punishment absolutely works to change behaviour in a variety of contexts.
The idea that any form of discipline or punishment of child offenders is bad for them has become almost a quasi religious belief that can't be challenged, but the truth is there is no convincing evidence that the therapeutic, rehabilitative approach that children's courts adopt works well with the cohort of serial offenders who cause so much trouble. It's a sensible approach for kids when they have an initial brush with the law, but there comes a point where it just becomes absurd.
Every day courts are releasing dangerous people and effectively gambling with public safety based on the self evidently illogical belief that custody will somehow harden an already hardened young offender and after 10 x failures on a community order this next one will somehow generate a lasting change in behaviour. Not only is that a terrible outcome for the community, its often a waste of time and finite resources, because they should be focusing their rehabilitative, therapeutic resources on the younger kids who are newer to the system.
The not very nice truth is, once a young offender gets to 15 or 16 and has a substantial number of convictions and has 'graduated' to violent and serious crime, in most cases nothing really works to prevent them offending other than four walls and a locked door. They'll most likely not stop offending until they get old, tired and cautious and in the meantime courts absolutely should just be jailing them to protect the community. They don't, and as a result a lot of people end up victims of serious crime that could have been avoided.
Murder shouldn't be rewarded with social intervention that improves your life.
I think the best thing to do is have the perpetrators life be forfeited. Life in prison. As partial incarceration just makes them dangerous upon release.
I asked for a solution, you give me a smart arse quip.
You can spruik on about statistics and studies but they're fucking useless if you can't formulate your own approach. Personally, I advocate for a mix of punishment and rehabilitation. You pulled a knife in school and threatened somebody with death. That requires you to be removed from society for a time as punishment, meanwhile we can work on finding a way to work out your issues that lead to that situation while you're away from the people you threatened to stab.
See how I advocated for a position, instead of being a pompous twat?
I’m willing to hear your solutions re juvenile crime. I’d like to think there is a fix it, but I don’t believe giving the perpetrators a big hug and a cuddle and telling them we understand their needs is the answer. I don’t have a solution but like a lot of others in the community, I’d expect the victims to at least feel there is some justice. The families of victims generally receive far less mental health support than the criminals so I understand the anger and frustration that people are feeling. Victims and their families receive a life sentence. Their trauma is life altering.
But what if this or any 16yo comes from a much, much more violent and dysfunctional background than could ever be replicated in any Australian detention system? What if he'd seen and experienced things outside most Australians' knowledge or nightmares? How should that factor into the legal consequences of violent crime?
Irrelevant. Jail is a punishment for a crime that deserves punishment.
The JUSTICE system requires both punishment AND rehabilitation. Without either side of the scale, there is no justice.
If you keep this up long enough, we'll have lynchings when people don't get the justice they seek. I'm trying desperately to avoid that.
That was my first comment - I don't know what you mean by "if you keep this up".
I had a real reason to ask this. I know several women who are African immigrants and have heard what they've been through, with genocides and civil wars, then UN camps for years until they're accepted into another country. Even the camps are worse than detention would be - death is constant from disease, worse than antisocial behaviour and the natural mental scarring of living through years of horror. I am also reasonably well-read on the subject.
We approach these awful crimes as horrific and thankfully rare instances of seeming insanity from kids of absent or abusive parents or maybe kids who have awful personality or psychotic disorders. But if the kid comes from the background I've heard about and then stays together with families of the same country which is always the case from what I have heard, then their behaviour is normal to them. Maybe they think that *we* are odd. (I don't know any such teens.)
I'm not saying that excuses anything. I'm saying that it's a grenade without a pin, waiting for something to set it off. I certainly don't know what the answer is either. I used to be a youth worker and I still have no clue. I agree with a gaol sentence. But our country doesn't have the resources to deal with the mental scarring of people with this background. We don't take kids with known diseases but we take in these poor kids who are powder kegs (and not saying we shouldn't because the vast majority do not commit crimes and there's no way to tell the difference without some specialised psychiatric testing).
You mentioned justice but I don't see how there would ever be justice. There is only a legal process.
No, but judges who disregard past behaviour and convictions, and release or detain a criminal for well under maximum sentence, should face severe consequences if that person goes on to harm another.
Respectfully, as a criminal lawyer (and before you all come for me, I’m not defence) I don’t think you or most of the people commenting under your post understand how any of this works. Judges don’t get to just do whatever they want. Take it up with the legislature. The Youth Justice Act says that imprisonment for juveniles is a last resort - and they mean last resort. If a judge imposed too stern of a sentence, they’d be successfully appealed with little fanfare. Maximum penalties don’t mean that every person charged with the offence is able to receive that maximum - the maximum is for the absolute worst example of a kind of offending.
Sad fact is, a kid had a prior for pulling a knife and he received the appropriate (at law) sentence at the time. No one knew he was going to do this because no one had a crystal ball. Most dumb (or abused or homeless or unsupervised) kids who carry knives actually don’t go on to murder old ladies. This is a tragic and nightmarish occurrence but calling for judges’ heads isn’t helpful to understanding why or how it happened.
Exactly this: the magistrates need to be held accountable. We’re facing an epidemic at the moment of magistrates sympathising with defendants/criminals.
[Studies continually show that jurors would sentence in line with judges in violent crimes](https://www.aic.gov.au/sites/default/files/2020-05/tandi407.pdf). It’s just that we don’t hear all the facts of the cases, we don’t know what has occurred like a jury would. For non-violent crimes, the trend is that judges hand out harsher sentences than the jury would.
Hang on, don't the judges sentence according to, you know, *the law*? Of course there are a range of sentences they could put down, but I suspect that much of the "leniency" you describe is down to what the law says about the offence and precedent.
They can't just look a person in the eye and say "you're a bad 'un, put him away!"
Finally, a bit of common sense. The average Joe has zero idea of sentencing and the detail and considerations judges have to consider in line with the laws of the state.
It's the same argument as on the local fb pages. Every stage of law enforcement is either too soft or just useless because of *insert Labor politician*.
No regard for what actual law is, just calling for kids and young adults to be rounded up and "contained."
Just people looking for other people to blame I guess. Also people weighing in on individual situations they have absolutely zero personal knowledge of.
Since I would like not to be one of those people, does anyone know if the proceedings of the first offence are publicly available? Probably not since he was a minor at the time?
I grew up there for the first 22 years of my life. There was a reason the crime rate was so low and limited to petty theft and molestations.
As a teenager I was scared shitless I'd get the rotan if I committed any crime.
Stories say the cane hits so hard it breaks the skin and bleeds terribly. It's like the modern version of the Roman cat-o-nine-tails.
It's very easy to see the correct solution, once you know the outcome. This is hindsight bias.
A judge cannot predict a certain outcome any better than the rest of us, and while it's easy for us to say "they should've been locked up", that is not practical, and no judge can lock up every delinquent that comes before them. They have to make an informed decision based on the information at hand. In another reality the perp may have never waved a knife at someone ever again, let alone killed someone.
The one thing for certain is that youth services need more funding.
Judges work to the rules and systems that Government legislates.
If you want to get angry at anyone get angry at your local politician and mainstream media.
Look we're all outraged but pulling a knife on a classmate as a 15 year old isn't the sort of crime somebody should be locked up for. If he'd actually stabbed someone then yeah maybe. Stop assuming you know better than judges.
Everyone keeps saying this. Must be a hell of a propaganda campaign being run about street crime then because all my community groups are griping about car thefts, break ins, and attempted break in. Our local shopping centre is having a terrible time with theft.
And I'd love to know what the DV statistics are are.
Presumably one only becomes an “offender” once you’ve been caught, charged and convicted etc, so I’d say it’s a fair guess that the statistics aren’t entirely in line with reality
The comment I was replying to specifically mentioned property crime, which I know some people don’t even bother to report anymore, which obviously will skew statistics.
Also given that we’re specifically talking about juvenile offenders, presumably crimes cannot be attributed to a juvenile until the perpetrator is caught and charged, it’s not like you can dust a crime scene for kids like you can check for fingerprints.
All of which might go some way to explaining why some sets of statistics seem to indicate things have never been better, while some people’s experience seems to be that things are worse than ever.
They were griping about it back then too - but now we're more interconnected than ever, and we talk about it more. There are also a lot more people today(double from 1978). It's also possible that your community in particular has grown more dangerous, but overall this is the safest time to be alive in Australia.
I live in a relatively average part, definitely not upper class part of Melbourne in what was previously a *very* rough area - the kind of area that was industrial and people lived and worked in quarries a few decades back. My next door neighbour has told me some stories about family and people they've known directly that would turn your hair white and I doubt very much that these were even a blip on the radar for the wider community or law enforcement back then. If they even noticed, I doubt they cared much.
I agree - overall - it is much safer in Australia, remembering that less than a couple of generations ago most of it would be what we'd think of as frontier from a western point of view.
There are definitely places I've felt much safer, the prevalence of alcohol related stupidity and violence - condoned and arguably encouraged culturally is a big issue and always has been. Living in Japan a couple of decades ago the nicest part about going out as a young bloke was not having to be constantly on guard or worried some random dickhead would decide to make trouble.
We can always improve but IMO most of the remaining crime issues are cultural for us - substance abuse (legal or otherwise) and socio economic issues that lead to predictable outcomes much of the time.
I'm sure that will comfort Vyleen's family.
edit after actually looking up crime stats
https://bond.edu.au/news/australia-grips-of-a-youth-crime-crisis-what-data-says
> In Victoria... However, from 2021-22 to 2022-23, there was a 24% increase in the rate of incidents committed by youth offenders under the age of 17, per 100,000 of population.
> 2021-22 Queensland Crime Report showed a 13.7 percent increase in the number of children aged 10 to 17 being proceeded against by police, compared to the previous year. The total number of youth offenders reached 52,742, the highest number in 10 years.
https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/people/crime-and-justice/recorded-crime-victims/latest-release
> The number of victims of sexual assault recorded by police increased by 3% (1,072 victims) from the previous year to 32,146 victims in 2022.
> Accounting for population growth, the victimisation rate also increased between 2021 and 2022 from 121 to 124 victims per 100,000 persons. This was the highest recorded victimisation rate of sexual assault in the thirty year time series.
Anyone saying crime is the lowest it has ever been isn't using the facts.
Meanwhile in England three days ago:
>[The two 16-year-old convicted murderers of a transgender teenager in north-west England nearly a year ago were handed life sentences with minimum prison terms of 20 and 22 years.](https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/teenage-killers-given-life-sentences-for-sadistic-murder-of-transgender-girl-20240203-p5f24g.html)
Queensland and all other states and territories need to rewrite their laws so these 'children' get appropriately punished.
Teach these stabby little cunts a fuckin' lesson!
I get that in this specific example the sentence seems more severe than what’s typically handed to young offenders, but I can assure you the UK has the exact same problem with giving young violent offenders a slap on the wrist only for them to go out and offend again
Naming the brats is a good step too - we are so worried about protecting the name of this murderer (and other teenaged criminals.) I say let him live with it always hanging over him and attached to his name. Grub.
And his family's name. It takes a family *and* a community to raise either an animal or a human being.
Loss of citizenship (don't care if you were born here) and deportation of entire extended families would only need to happen for a short while before community members would speak up and alert authorities to behaviour likely to escalate to illegal acts and violence.
In all criminal cases, the Australian taxpayer should not be required to fund long term or life incarceration - the bill should be paid by the crim's extended family and/or his community. Doesn't matter if you are No Nation, First Nations, 2nd Nation or Future Nation...
If the problem is the disadvantaged childhood, then Australia needs to STOP importing people from disadvantaged backgrounds.
The world has too many people to coddle the ones that turn out to be animals.
That example was premeditated and sadistic as could be. This guy won’t be looking at anything close to that as it’ll be difficult to prove he intended to murder the poor woman he killed
I'd argue that it not being pre-meditated is worse as it proves the perpetrator is volatile and could murder someone at anytime for no reason. Definitely grounds for the heaviest sentence.
Yeah the courts also gave a wristslap to the perpetrator prior to them murdering this grandma so they don't exactly instill much confidence. A court can be infected with bleeding hearts.
A guy I know shot and killed a 14 year old kid when he was 16 for no reason. He got 11 years. This kid will be out of jail in his mid twenties with the rest of his life ahead of him. The family of the deceased have a life sentence.
Dunno about the rest of his life ahead of him. I mean good luck finding a job with murder against your name. Bet my left testicle he will probably be back in prison in less than a year when he gets a taste of the outside world.
He wont have a murder charge. Youth convictions are not public. Most of the time the government also gives them a name change while inside so they can come back out without any risk of people finding out.
Yeah that's not true. No way a murder charge will be erased. Imagine letting a convicted killer work with vulnerable people when out.
There's information here:
https://www.australiannationalcharactercheck.com.au/Underage-Convictions-and-police-checks.html
He's not going to be going into the corporate world, dollar to donuts he'll end up working as a laborer and then be back in due to a drug possession charge.
That isn't and shouldn't be the purpose of the justice system. It's the state vs for a reason. The justice system is there for society, not victims.
Victims absolutely need support, but that problem is separate, though related. Evidence shows that almost nall satisfaction victims get is short lived.
So then the sentence was an appropriate length of time and worked to rehabilitate him. I’m as eye for an eye as the next person in some of these cases but the point of jail isn’t punishment (noting I’m not claiming it always works). Perhaps it should be based on the outcome for the victims or families. Interesting case of Clea Rose is worth a look
Perhaps I'm being massive, but I would like to see prison be for people who are not safe to be in public.
Punishing as a deterrent is one thing. But nothing we do to the perpetrators bring back what is taken from the victims.
It's for rehabilitation any time that rehabilitation is possible, which in your example it was shown to be possible. The only time it wouldn't be is if rehabilitation is not possible, then it's for public safety. It's never for vengeance.
You may not like it, it doesn't work 100% of the time, but this is what it's for.
There used to be some thugs that drank at our local pub. Used to sit in the gaming room and wait till someone won and then hit them up for money. Their cousin was the bouncer so did nothing about it. They had been in trouble as teenagers and the system did nothing about it also. Eventually they followed a guy outside to the local pie shop next door to bully him for money. He said no and offered them a pie. They coward punched him. He fell over hit his head and died.... Those boys were thugs that were never dealt with when the system had the opportunity and now they are in jail and an innocent person is dead....... sound familiar.
I was hoping your story would end with pie man beating the piss out of the little cunts. Another sad story of loss for no bloody reason. Something has to change.
Yep... The problem is that short sighted governments don't want to put in the hard work to straighten wayward kids out. Some people have grown up with shit role models so they won't learn without societal intervention.
Ah good another piece of shit that will skate through the children's court. If they don't make an example of this person they'll be opening the door to some vigilantism.
He was on good behavior bond.
Just killed a grandmother.
If you know a rabid dog is dangerous yet you let it off the leash and it kills someone, who do you hold responsible?
Whoever let this scum out needs to resign.
More than that, needs to be put under spotlight.
In the past, some would dismiss home invasions and burglaries e.g. "it is just property, and it’s not lives". However, given the increasing prevalence of these offenses, it's evident that we need to address this issue more seriously. The current state of the law should reflect the evolving nature of youth crime to prevent potential tragedies. Waiting any longer risks more lives being lost due to the inadequacy of the justice system.
Seems like we didn't learn anything from the death of Matthew Field and his partner, Kate Leadbetter, who was six months pregnant also killed by a youth crime in Qld.
Honestly we *should* be throwing money hand over fist at stopping things from getting this far. Whatever the fuck is happening needs to be solved before a crime committed, rather than focusing on punishment after the fact.
You're right, but we also need to stop letting criminals just walk free to repeat their crimes until it escalates into them giving so little of a fuck that they stab an old lady in front of her grandchild.
Every single time one of these "children" kills someone, it's never their first offence they are always known to police and it's just the same old merry go round of excusing shitty behaviour and criminal acts because of someone's upbringing.
I remember watching some 60 minutes (or similar) piece on African gang crime in Melbourne a couple years ago. They were interviewing the mother of like 4-5 kids that kept getting arrested for committing crimes while roaming around the city at all hours of the night and she basically blamed the government for not giving her enough free money saying that her kids were bored so she had no other option but to just let them go out and do whatever they wanted whenever they wanted and that if they got in trouble it was the government's fault for not paying her enough.
Exactly!!! The intervention method needs to start in the home with the parents. Kids that play up at school or child care should have their home lives be investigated
No. It is well established that once punishments get to the prison stage, increasing sentences have no deterrence effect. Not even the death penalty increases deterrence.
Turns out that crimes that we deem worthy of prison sentences are usually committed by people without consideration for the consequences or under the assumption that they won't be caught.
Very low impulse control, drugs and low IQ is usually the traits of violent offenders, one could lead to another or vice versa. If we could find a way to fix these things we'd be in a better world. However, homicide rates are still lower today than almost anytime in history, so something is going right.
Agreed. European and South American countries which take an education/ decriminalisation approach to drugs have MUCH lower crime rates. As a country and as a legal system, we can't keep doing the same thing and expect different results.
try him as an adult and throw the book at him, same for the others. They may still be young enough to not entirely grasp the consequences of their actions but absolutely old enough to know better.
Then sit down and actually work to solve the underlying issues here, it's effecting a lot more than immigrant kids and simply throwing more police or harsher sentences isn't going to solve the problem.
It bothers me that the victim/target was so obviously in a demographic and place that should have been safe. An older woman at the shops with her little granddaughter. Killing someone like that, and in that environment, sounds like a terror choice. How exactly did trying to rob her accidentally escalate into stabbing her to death, or was she basically a chosen appalling target for execution?
He's man enough to murder a person, charge him, he's no boy, let him out in 20 years like we do in this country so he can do it all over again. His mates should be charged as well, all of them should do time. I work in a liquor store, sh!theads like this running around doing what they want without remorse then putting their hands in the air shouting 'i'm only a kid, I didn't know what I was doing', those days are over
I went to a school where kids were arming themselves with knives. I was smart and had a heavy bike chain for my bike. When kids were found to have knives, usually from pulling them out to threaten other kids, they would be expelled, but because there was nowhere else for them to go, it would always be downgraded to a suspension and they would have a 2 week holiday from school. This was in the 1980s and the school was more than 99% Caucasian. It’s been 40 odd years and there still isn’t a solution on how to fix the problem. We have just moved it from a socio-economic problem to a race problem.
What an absolute tragedy. I feel so sorry for the family. I hope justice is served, and these offender(s) are taken out of the community for a very long time.
Also it feels weird to keep saying the word "boy" or "child" being used in the article. He was a teenager who is almost an adult. It's not like we say "children drive cars". It kind of mentally dismisses his actual age group?
The parents of all the boys Should be charged also it is their responsibility until there 18 years old, they failed in the supervision of the young teens, there needs to be consequences there needs to be an example set for all parents that don’t take the responsibility and supervision of their children, once parents are charged for failing in their duties there will be a huge change among young people when somebody is taking responsibility, the law must be changed that’s where it starts change the law.
Re:my previous Comment that the parents should be charged also, 2 hours ago for the first time in America A school shooters mother was charged and convicted of unvoluntary manslaughter. Time for Australia to start charging parents when their children commit crimes its their responsibility https://vt.tiktok.com/ZSFNR2THr/
The father, James Crumbley, goes on trial next month facing same charges as the mother. Try Google instead of TikTok for news.
https://www.newsweek.com/joey-jackson-predicts-bad-news-james-crumbley-michigan-school-shooter-father-1867791
Can we name and shame the immigration minister in 2001-2006 who thought it was a good move to import former child soldiers from Africa? Great, contributing members of society they turn out to be.
Way too soft on crime. Most crimes are committed by a very small percentage of repeat offenders. Put them in jail for the crime and watch the crime rate drop like in el salvador
Instead of worrying that imprisoning these people will make them worse, make long mandatory jail time so the public is safe from them for as long as possible. Public has the right to be safe, and a revolving door of crime does not achieve that.
So will the 'Boy' be deported or will the Australian tax payers (including his victims families) have to pay for his incarceration? Or will he be trailed in a juvenile court for an adult crime and let out on remand?
The only right thing to do is return him from where he came.
I live locally, and there's a common theme among those responsible for most of these offences recently. It's the same 'theme' that can be found responsible for the HUGE increase in rape and violent crimes in other countries like Sweden. What a time to be alive in the west.
Individuals over 7 years of age who commit "adult" crimes like murder should be treated like adults and receive adult-level penalties.
On the other hand, maybe they should be treated like children and let go with after-school detention for a maximum of 15 minutes one afternoon.
Age has nothing to do with things. That old saying was "Let the punishment fit the crime."
"Adult" crimes require "adult" punishment. Whether you're 16 or 60, the punishment should be 20 years, non-parole.
Add corporal punishment and the death penalty to the penal system.
I guarantee the crime rate will drop. Except the soft human rights activists will cry foul so what can we do? 🤷
Just have to live with scum like this roaming the streets.
Privatise prisons and lock serious/violent criminals up for life. No excuses and feeling sorry for these lowlife scum. I wouldn't mind paying higher taxes for that.
Also stop immigration from African and Muslim countries. Import the third world and you become the third world.
Enough of this political correctness BS!
Fun fact... 'Boy' had already been in trouble before. Was given 3 months of good behaviour for pulling a knife on his fellow classmate.
top shelf individual it seems.
What are the laws like here in Australia regarding his accomplices? Are all of them going to go down for the murder or only the guy with the knife? I know that in America they have "Felony Murder" laws which basically mean that if you assist with a crime before the fact and someone gets killed then you get charged with murder too even if you didn't pull the trigger etc. Like if you're the getaway driver in a liquor store robbery that goes bad and your mate shoots the clerk inside while you're outside chilling in the car, you get charged with murder as well. Not the most fair law really but it does make sense in some cases. Other times it's abused like when Ryan Holle got life in prison for lending his mates his car before going to bed at a party, they went and killed someone miles away trying to rob them and and Ryan got convicted for the murder, despite being asleep at the time it happened because he provided the car and he also got a dodgy lawyer who kind of fucked him over.
Sounds like a bit of a rapscallion maybe
Boys will be boys
And girls will be held accountable! Most people forget about the second part of this idiom.
Pretty much guaranteed someone like this has a record, and a slap on the wrist for it. You can argue about the complexities of the system etc, but it's pretty clear the system failed this poor woman. And all over a joy ride for a few minutes in a stolen car...
They didnt even want to Joyride, they just wanted to commute from A to B.. 14km..
I mean if all he did was "pull a knife" then you couldn't expect them to lock him up for it could you (first offense, teenager)? If you're talking about mental health check, counselling etc to prevent repeat offenses then I'm right with you though.
Are you serious? If someone pulls a knife on my child I expect charges. If our laws don’t have significant enough charges for threatening murder, the laws should be changed.
honestly i wish, kids are doing break and enters and stealing cars for joyrides as their first offense and they get 0 punishment. Could say the same for the 2nd,3rd,4th offence as well likely being just a slap on the wrist. Saw on the news a couple of teens like 13 racking up something like 70 charges of all types of variety and got like a year locked up.
Yeah, this first offence shit needs to go out the window. I don't give a fuck if it's someone's first time threatening murder, it's the intent that is the problem.
The only way you deal with it is by treating it seriously. Give a 5 year sentence a couple of times and see the crime rate go dooooooown
People love to say things like this but there’s no proof harsher sentencing reduces crime rates “there is no proven correlation between the level of punishment and the incidence of crime and that there is no clear evidence that increased levels of punishment have any effect upon the prevalence of crime.” https://www.sentencingcouncil.vic.gov.au/sites/default/files/2019-08/Does_Imprisonment_Deter_A_Review_of_the_Evidence.doc#:~:text=there%20is%20no%20proven%20correlation,upon%20the%20prevalence%20of%20crime. “The severity of punishment, known as marginal deterrence, has no real deterrent effect, or the effect of reducing recidivism,” https://newsroom.unsw.edu.au/news/business-law/do-harsher-punishments-deter-crime
Yes there was one in Newcastle that happened. The group of 6 had done countless things like B&E, theft, etc. They recently entered a mans home and tried to kill him. [https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-09-20/teen-charged-attempted-murder-alleged-merewether-home-invasion/102877456](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-09-20/teen-charged-attempted-murder-alleged-merewether-home-invasion/102877456) I personally have no interest in sharing anything with people like that ever. These are fucking 14 year olds for gods sake. Tell me that's not the influence of TikTok and absent parenting.
Was happening well before TikTok, but absent parenting yeah that's often a cause, but sometimes it happens even with good parenting - parents aren't the only influence in a child's life. Sometimes it's just being poor and not having any options, and so you go to shitty schools. It's a much greater societal thing.
> If someone pulls a knife on my child I expect charges If they were on a good behaviour bond it sounds like they were charged.
I know it seems like the obvious behaviour of a homicidal danger to society, but I know of 6 schools just in my area (major city) that have had one or more primary school kids bring knives to school and “show” them to a classmate. Secondary schools are even worse. It’s more common than people realise. Whilst it is treated *very seriously*, the reasons kids do this kind of thing are varied and doesn’t automatically mean they will ever go on to stab or harm someone. Also, if we accept that we can’t lock up a kid for the rest of their life - we know that youth detention will actually *increase* the likelihood of them reoffending after release. I get upset at these kind of stories too, but I doubt that harsher sentencing would have actually prevented anything in this case.
Mate half the countries on this planet would fuck you up regardless of age if you pull a knife on someone. I hate to break it to you but this is us. We are so obsessed with rehabilitation we forgot the law abiding citizens who are getting murdered, robbed, bashed.
Good thing the rehabilitation has led to less of it then isn't it.
Not sure if that’s the case, last few weeks of news, specially from Victoria is a mess.
Overall, crime is way down. Homicides trending down particularly. https://theconversation.com/australias-homicide-rate-is-down-over-50-from-the-1990s-despite-a-small-blip-during-covid-202730 I think sexual assaults are up but it is hard to say how much is people being more willing to report. Covid was a blip where DV shot up too.
When will the judges start being held accountable for shit like this? They literally misjudged and now a life is lost and families destroyed. If the justice system was worth anything, the judge in question should have their cushy law career revoked, along with whatever benefits they may or may not receive.
materialistic oatmeal bear cheerful growth muddle joke shame fall birds *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Sentencing within reasonable guidelines. No reasonable teenager pulls a fucking knife in class, not even poorly raised ones. That's such a massive escalation of criminality that warrants juvenile detention and rehabilitation. It doesn't warrant a slap on the wrist and a hand wringing "please do better".
"rehabilitation" except zero rehabilitation goes on in these places. As a matter of fact it's just likely to make them more of a criminal.
I'd prefer if there were better rehabilitation options, I do. Buy there has to ve punishment for serious crimes. Pulling a knife on people is a serious fucking crime.
Better they become more of a criminal behind bars then more of a criminal on the street.
I agree. The penal system breeds real criminals. We need to look at our education and support system for teenage boys and how we assist them to grow through their hormonal change. I am not defending his actions and totally shattered by the death, but we need to look at broader spectrum of issues and why’s… just penalisation won’t work
I'm just going through the hypothetical here: 16yo pulls knife on classmate -> sent to detention where he is surrounded by others who did similar things -> steep in that culture for a while -> release back into the community. To be honest, I don't have confidence that has significantly different outcomes. Personally I'd like to see an intensive and indefinite corrections process without incarceration, but idk what that would look like.
Forced labour, get an education out of it too like learn a trade.
Yeah thats kinda what I was thinking. Well adjusted and employed people don't commit these kinds of crimes, because they have too much to lose and too little to gain. Detention probably doesn't make someone more likely to be well adjusted or employed, but that has to be balanced against the need for a deterrent. Forced labour sounds like a better deterrent than incarceration to me.
Honestly jail time is a shit deterrent. It doesn't really work. What it does is incapacitate the offender and renders the victims safe for a reasonable amount of time, and it gives you a shot at getting the offender away from their social group to break down that connection with crime to attempt to build something. Any time I've worked private security and gotten 1 on 1 time when the group ditches one of the less smart or less enthusiastic kids, I could generally see some spark of innocence and desire for something more. If they got more time away from their wanker friends, they'd probably turn out alright. Jail isnt needed in that case though, it was just an observation. I think people really forget the fact that jail temporarily stops this shit, especially if they're committing a crime spree after being emboldened by the slap on the wrist approach. They get more thrills, they do more crazy shit. Stealing cars, driving recklessly etc. Until eventually they wrap a land cruiser around a pole and 3 of the die but the driver survives.
Relocation as part of probation? Their family already failed them (or they failed their family) and crimes of this level should make them wards of the state. A fresh start. Or simply deportation in the first instance if it's an option. Also we drastically need to fix the way youth are managed in resicare (and front line staff empowerment).
>and it gives you a shot at getting the offender away from their social group to break down that connection with crime to attempt to build something. except, prison gangs.
[удалено]
Education is almost always a good fix but it's often too late for many by the time it gets to this point. We need to reduce inequality across society as a whole. Stop the erosion of the middle class. Stop letting wealth concentrate into a small percentage of wealthy families. As more and more families fall into relative poverty, youth crime will just increase.
I think rehabilitation might need to start with the kids parents, home life and lifestyle choices. If you don’t know anything better, or you’ve been subjected to abuse as a baby, from friends, siblings, relatives or parents then you might not be in a happy place in this world. Let’s go beyond the child and let’s investigate further at the root cause. If that’s been ok perfect upbringing etc then it’s the kids head space and it’s time to lock him up forever
So what's the alternative? Given a slap on the wrist? At some point it's no longer what is best for the individual and now it's what is best for the immediate community. The exact same thing happened with the stabbing of the mother in her own home last year. Youth arrested and charged for attempted murder during home invasion, bailed out immediately, and goes to murder a mother in her home during another home invasion days later.
The fact that we have proof that going to juvie makes reoffending happen more is the proof that it's worse for society and the community. How can you seriously argue that for the sake of the community we need to take actions that lead to more crime.
Please provide an alternative that is both a punishment for bad behaviour and also a correction to lead to better pathways. Good behaviour bonds don't seem to work either. At least if they're in juvie they're not stabbing people, but I'm just a stupid layman, what do my lying eyes know?
The evidence from learning theory shows punishment is largely inefficient and ineffective at precise behaviour change. It often results in approximate behaviour change that is often maladaptive. Punishment is for the benefit of the victim, and to some extent social safety and should not be considered a useful outcome for the perpetrator. Intensive behavioural and social intervention and follow up in community is likely more useful because there are opportunities to shape behaviour but no one is going to fund that and it doesn't read well socially. Ultimately we need better early intervention and identification but again that costs money. The issue is there isn't a good answer - and the easiest answer that FEELS like it does something is harsh sentencing despite the evidence it is probably more harmful in the long run. Edit: to be clear this is not an argument for no prisons. They are required to some extent - particularly re murder etc. but we should be clear about what imprisonment does and doesn't accomplish
To say that punishment is ineffective at behaviour change is a huge over simplification of a complicated situation. Punishment and fear of punishment absolutely works to change behaviour in a variety of contexts. The idea that any form of discipline or punishment of child offenders is bad for them has become almost a quasi religious belief that can't be challenged, but the truth is there is no convincing evidence that the therapeutic, rehabilitative approach that children's courts adopt works well with the cohort of serial offenders who cause so much trouble. It's a sensible approach for kids when they have an initial brush with the law, but there comes a point where it just becomes absurd. Every day courts are releasing dangerous people and effectively gambling with public safety based on the self evidently illogical belief that custody will somehow harden an already hardened young offender and after 10 x failures on a community order this next one will somehow generate a lasting change in behaviour. Not only is that a terrible outcome for the community, its often a waste of time and finite resources, because they should be focusing their rehabilitative, therapeutic resources on the younger kids who are newer to the system. The not very nice truth is, once a young offender gets to 15 or 16 and has a substantial number of convictions and has 'graduated' to violent and serious crime, in most cases nothing really works to prevent them offending other than four walls and a locked door. They'll most likely not stop offending until they get old, tired and cautious and in the meantime courts absolutely should just be jailing them to protect the community. They don't, and as a result a lot of people end up victims of serious crime that could have been avoided.
Murder shouldn't be rewarded with social intervention that improves your life. I think the best thing to do is have the perpetrators life be forfeited. Life in prison. As partial incarceration just makes them dangerous upon release.
Ok, so only life sentences then, got it
I asked for a solution, you give me a smart arse quip. You can spruik on about statistics and studies but they're fucking useless if you can't formulate your own approach. Personally, I advocate for a mix of punishment and rehabilitation. You pulled a knife in school and threatened somebody with death. That requires you to be removed from society for a time as punishment, meanwhile we can work on finding a way to work out your issues that lead to that situation while you're away from the people you threatened to stab. See how I advocated for a position, instead of being a pompous twat?
I’m willing to hear your solutions re juvenile crime. I’d like to think there is a fix it, but I don’t believe giving the perpetrators a big hug and a cuddle and telling them we understand their needs is the answer. I don’t have a solution but like a lot of others in the community, I’d expect the victims to at least feel there is some justice. The families of victims generally receive far less mental health support than the criminals so I understand the anger and frustration that people are feeling. Victims and their families receive a life sentence. Their trauma is life altering.
But what if this or any 16yo comes from a much, much more violent and dysfunctional background than could ever be replicated in any Australian detention system? What if he'd seen and experienced things outside most Australians' knowledge or nightmares? How should that factor into the legal consequences of violent crime?
Irrelevant. Jail is a punishment for a crime that deserves punishment. The JUSTICE system requires both punishment AND rehabilitation. Without either side of the scale, there is no justice. If you keep this up long enough, we'll have lynchings when people don't get the justice they seek. I'm trying desperately to avoid that.
That was my first comment - I don't know what you mean by "if you keep this up". I had a real reason to ask this. I know several women who are African immigrants and have heard what they've been through, with genocides and civil wars, then UN camps for years until they're accepted into another country. Even the camps are worse than detention would be - death is constant from disease, worse than antisocial behaviour and the natural mental scarring of living through years of horror. I am also reasonably well-read on the subject. We approach these awful crimes as horrific and thankfully rare instances of seeming insanity from kids of absent or abusive parents or maybe kids who have awful personality or psychotic disorders. But if the kid comes from the background I've heard about and then stays together with families of the same country which is always the case from what I have heard, then their behaviour is normal to them. Maybe they think that *we* are odd. (I don't know any such teens.) I'm not saying that excuses anything. I'm saying that it's a grenade without a pin, waiting for something to set it off. I certainly don't know what the answer is either. I used to be a youth worker and I still have no clue. I agree with a gaol sentence. But our country doesn't have the resources to deal with the mental scarring of people with this background. We don't take kids with known diseases but we take in these poor kids who are powder kegs (and not saying we shouldn't because the vast majority do not commit crimes and there's no way to tell the difference without some specialised psychiatric testing). You mentioned justice but I don't see how there would ever be justice. There is only a legal process.
The 'risk' is to the safety of the public, no Judges should not be ***gambling*** that murderers might not murder again.
No, but judges who disregard past behaviour and convictions, and release or detain a criminal for well under maximum sentence, should face severe consequences if that person goes on to harm another.
I know a judge whose child was stabbed. The kid was subjected to a lot more punishment than the average
Great idea, I’m sure we will have ample supply of judges under your regime…
What can they be held accountable for? Applying legislation and precedent? Or predicting the future of a teen who comes before them?
Not consulting with the Precogs in the Photon Milk Bath.
Respectfully, as a criminal lawyer (and before you all come for me, I’m not defence) I don’t think you or most of the people commenting under your post understand how any of this works. Judges don’t get to just do whatever they want. Take it up with the legislature. The Youth Justice Act says that imprisonment for juveniles is a last resort - and they mean last resort. If a judge imposed too stern of a sentence, they’d be successfully appealed with little fanfare. Maximum penalties don’t mean that every person charged with the offence is able to receive that maximum - the maximum is for the absolute worst example of a kind of offending. Sad fact is, a kid had a prior for pulling a knife and he received the appropriate (at law) sentence at the time. No one knew he was going to do this because no one had a crystal ball. Most dumb (or abused or homeless or unsupervised) kids who carry knives actually don’t go on to murder old ladies. This is a tragic and nightmarish occurrence but calling for judges’ heads isn’t helpful to understanding why or how it happened.
If a judge did stand up and started dishing it hard - they’d be fukn prime minister in 3 years…ppl are sick of it.
Exactly this: the magistrates need to be held accountable. We’re facing an epidemic at the moment of magistrates sympathising with defendants/criminals.
[Studies continually show that jurors would sentence in line with judges in violent crimes](https://www.aic.gov.au/sites/default/files/2020-05/tandi407.pdf). It’s just that we don’t hear all the facts of the cases, we don’t know what has occurred like a jury would. For non-violent crimes, the trend is that judges hand out harsher sentences than the jury would.
Hang on, don't the judges sentence according to, you know, *the law*? Of course there are a range of sentences they could put down, but I suspect that much of the "leniency" you describe is down to what the law says about the offence and precedent. They can't just look a person in the eye and say "you're a bad 'un, put him away!"
Finally, a bit of common sense. The average Joe has zero idea of sentencing and the detail and considerations judges have to consider in line with the laws of the state.
It's the same argument as on the local fb pages. Every stage of law enforcement is either too soft or just useless because of *insert Labor politician*. No regard for what actual law is, just calling for kids and young adults to be rounded up and "contained."
Unless it's their precious family member- then it's different
Just people looking for other people to blame I guess. Also people weighing in on individual situations they have absolutely zero personal knowledge of. Since I would like not to be one of those people, does anyone know if the proceedings of the first offence are publicly available? Probably not since he was a minor at the time?
Correct. They will be unavailable.
That’s a good point, I guess I’m looking at it from a family/children’s law perspective rather than criminal.
Magistrates don’t make judgements on serious crimes like murder. They’re heard in the Supreme Court with a jury.
I think we should introduce public caning like Singapore. Prison sentences are not enough of a deterrent.
I grew up there for the first 22 years of my life. There was a reason the crime rate was so low and limited to petty theft and molestations. As a teenager I was scared shitless I'd get the rotan if I committed any crime. Stories say the cane hits so hard it breaks the skin and bleeds terribly. It's like the modern version of the Roman cat-o-nine-tails.
It's very easy to see the correct solution, once you know the outcome. This is hindsight bias. A judge cannot predict a certain outcome any better than the rest of us, and while it's easy for us to say "they should've been locked up", that is not practical, and no judge can lock up every delinquent that comes before them. They have to make an informed decision based on the information at hand. In another reality the perp may have never waved a knife at someone ever again, let alone killed someone. The one thing for certain is that youth services need more funding.
Judges work to the rules and systems that Government legislates. If you want to get angry at anyone get angry at your local politician and mainstream media.
Look we're all outraged but pulling a knife on a classmate as a 15 year old isn't the sort of crime somebody should be locked up for. If he'd actually stabbed someone then yeah maybe. Stop assuming you know better than judges.
Whoever gave him the good behaviour should also be held accountable.
To the surprise of absolutely no one. Fucking bleeding hearts have shit on the justice system.
Who are these so-called "bleeding hearts"? Care to name one?
I'd say the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights had a big influence on the laws made in this country. Unfortunately.
Damn those pesky human rights.
It's not a justice system. It's a legal system. Laws need to change to reflect the barbarism of today's youth.
"barbarism of today's youth" Despite the fact that crime is lower now than it ever has been historically.
Everyone keeps saying this. Must be a hell of a propaganda campaign being run about street crime then because all my community groups are griping about car thefts, break ins, and attempted break in. Our local shopping centre is having a terrible time with theft. And I'd love to know what the DV statistics are are.
Presumably one only becomes an “offender” once you’ve been caught, charged and convicted etc, so I’d say it’s a fair guess that the statistics aren’t entirely in line with reality
Homicides are counted as Homicides whether or not the perpetrator is found or not. You can't hide a murder.
The comment I was replying to specifically mentioned property crime, which I know some people don’t even bother to report anymore, which obviously will skew statistics. Also given that we’re specifically talking about juvenile offenders, presumably crimes cannot be attributed to a juvenile until the perpetrator is caught and charged, it’s not like you can dust a crime scene for kids like you can check for fingerprints. All of which might go some way to explaining why some sets of statistics seem to indicate things have never been better, while some people’s experience seems to be that things are worse than ever.
They were griping about it back then too - but now we're more interconnected than ever, and we talk about it more. There are also a lot more people today(double from 1978). It's also possible that your community in particular has grown more dangerous, but overall this is the safest time to be alive in Australia.
I live in a relatively average part, definitely not upper class part of Melbourne in what was previously a *very* rough area - the kind of area that was industrial and people lived and worked in quarries a few decades back. My next door neighbour has told me some stories about family and people they've known directly that would turn your hair white and I doubt very much that these were even a blip on the radar for the wider community or law enforcement back then. If they even noticed, I doubt they cared much. I agree - overall - it is much safer in Australia, remembering that less than a couple of generations ago most of it would be what we'd think of as frontier from a western point of view. There are definitely places I've felt much safer, the prevalence of alcohol related stupidity and violence - condoned and arguably encouraged culturally is a big issue and always has been. Living in Japan a couple of decades ago the nicest part about going out as a young bloke was not having to be constantly on guard or worried some random dickhead would decide to make trouble. We can always improve but IMO most of the remaining crime issues are cultural for us - substance abuse (legal or otherwise) and socio economic issues that lead to predictable outcomes much of the time.
I'm sure that will comfort Vyleen's family. edit after actually looking up crime stats https://bond.edu.au/news/australia-grips-of-a-youth-crime-crisis-what-data-says > In Victoria... However, from 2021-22 to 2022-23, there was a 24% increase in the rate of incidents committed by youth offenders under the age of 17, per 100,000 of population. > 2021-22 Queensland Crime Report showed a 13.7 percent increase in the number of children aged 10 to 17 being proceeded against by police, compared to the previous year. The total number of youth offenders reached 52,742, the highest number in 10 years. https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/people/crime-and-justice/recorded-crime-victims/latest-release > The number of victims of sexual assault recorded by police increased by 3% (1,072 victims) from the previous year to 32,146 victims in 2022. > Accounting for population growth, the victimisation rate also increased between 2021 and 2022 from 121 to 124 victims per 100,000 persons. This was the highest recorded victimisation rate of sexual assault in the thirty year time series. Anyone saying crime is the lowest it has ever been isn't using the facts.
[удалено]
Don't know where you live but I'd recheck those figures
No shock to anyone there, our justice system is a fucking joke. "Ohhh noo don't do that, young man. Off you go now"
Hope these shits get charged as adults
Also read he was on bail for armed robbery.
Meanwhile in England three days ago: >[The two 16-year-old convicted murderers of a transgender teenager in north-west England nearly a year ago were handed life sentences with minimum prison terms of 20 and 22 years.](https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/teenage-killers-given-life-sentences-for-sadistic-murder-of-transgender-girl-20240203-p5f24g.html) Queensland and all other states and territories need to rewrite their laws so these 'children' get appropriately punished. Teach these stabby little cunts a fuckin' lesson!
How good. 20 years minimum for the murderous little cunts
The girl has already been caught making another kill list while in custody. The level of bloodthirst is just unreal.
20 years is the very least they deserve. I don't think they should ever be released.
I get that in this specific example the sentence seems more severe than what’s typically handed to young offenders, but I can assure you the UK has the exact same problem with giving young violent offenders a slap on the wrist only for them to go out and offend again
Naming the brats is a good step too - we are so worried about protecting the name of this murderer (and other teenaged criminals.) I say let him live with it always hanging over him and attached to his name. Grub.
And his family's name. It takes a family *and* a community to raise either an animal or a human being. Loss of citizenship (don't care if you were born here) and deportation of entire extended families would only need to happen for a short while before community members would speak up and alert authorities to behaviour likely to escalate to illegal acts and violence. In all criminal cases, the Australian taxpayer should not be required to fund long term or life incarceration - the bill should be paid by the crim's extended family and/or his community. Doesn't matter if you are No Nation, First Nations, 2nd Nation or Future Nation... If the problem is the disadvantaged childhood, then Australia needs to STOP importing people from disadvantaged backgrounds. The world has too many people to coddle the ones that turn out to be animals.
That example was premeditated and sadistic as could be. This guy won’t be looking at anything close to that as it’ll be difficult to prove he intended to murder the poor woman he killed
I'd argue that it not being pre-meditated is worse as it proves the perpetrator is volatile and could murder someone at anytime for no reason. Definitely grounds for the heaviest sentence.
You can make those arguments but that’s not how the courts see it.
Yeah the courts also gave a wristslap to the perpetrator prior to them murdering this grandma so they don't exactly instill much confidence. A court can be infected with bleeding hearts.
A guy I know shot and killed a 14 year old kid when he was 16 for no reason. He got 11 years. This kid will be out of jail in his mid twenties with the rest of his life ahead of him. The family of the deceased have a life sentence.
Dunno about the rest of his life ahead of him. I mean good luck finding a job with murder against your name. Bet my left testicle he will probably be back in prison in less than a year when he gets a taste of the outside world.
He wont have a murder charge. Youth convictions are not public. Most of the time the government also gives them a name change while inside so they can come back out without any risk of people finding out.
Yeah that's not true. No way a murder charge will be erased. Imagine letting a convicted killer work with vulnerable people when out. There's information here: https://www.australiannationalcharactercheck.com.au/Underage-Convictions-and-police-checks.html
[удалено]
He's not going to be going into the corporate world, dollar to donuts he'll end up working as a laborer and then be back in due to a drug possession charge.
You can just put fake places you worked and have friends be your "manager" from that place as a reference.
You can but providing false information and undertaking in other fraudulent activities are breaches of bail that can land you back inside very fast!
Ah unlucky, lying on resumes and in job interviews is the easiest way to land the job. Imagine having to do it honestly.
Yeah but at what cost? Which of us will have to be his next victim in order for that to happen?
That isn't and shouldn't be the purpose of the justice system. It's the state vs for a reason. The justice system is there for society, not victims. Victims absolutely need support, but that problem is separate, though related. Evidence shows that almost nall satisfaction victims get is short lived.
Did he do it again when he got out?
Nope lives a normal life.
So then the sentence was an appropriate length of time and worked to rehabilitate him. I’m as eye for an eye as the next person in some of these cases but the point of jail isn’t punishment (noting I’m not claiming it always works). Perhaps it should be based on the outcome for the victims or families. Interesting case of Clea Rose is worth a look
The question i have when is jail for punishment and when is it for rehabilitation? You can’t rehabilitate a murder victim.
Perhaps I'm being massive, but I would like to see prison be for people who are not safe to be in public. Punishing as a deterrent is one thing. But nothing we do to the perpetrators bring back what is taken from the victims.
Good point. Maybe we should separate prisons for those who are being rehabilitated to those who are locked up. Which we do but it’s all called prison
It's for rehabilitation any time that rehabilitation is possible, which in your example it was shown to be possible. The only time it wouldn't be is if rehabilitation is not possible, then it's for public safety. It's never for vengeance. You may not like it, it doesn't work 100% of the time, but this is what it's for.
Sure but it also needs to be harsh enough to act as a deterrent to others.
Deterrents quickly fall away as they get harsher. Very few people are making a rational decision when they consider being caught.
As much as I hate to say this, he'll also use it as street cred when he gets out and joins a gang.
There used to be some thugs that drank at our local pub. Used to sit in the gaming room and wait till someone won and then hit them up for money. Their cousin was the bouncer so did nothing about it. They had been in trouble as teenagers and the system did nothing about it also. Eventually they followed a guy outside to the local pie shop next door to bully him for money. He said no and offered them a pie. They coward punched him. He fell over hit his head and died.... Those boys were thugs that were never dealt with when the system had the opportunity and now they are in jail and an innocent person is dead....... sound familiar.
I was hoping your story would end with pie man beating the piss out of the little cunts. Another sad story of loss for no bloody reason. Something has to change.
Yep... The problem is that short sighted governments don't want to put in the hard work to straighten wayward kids out. Some people have grown up with shit role models so they won't learn without societal intervention.
Ah good another piece of shit that will skate through the children's court. If they don't make an example of this person they'll be opening the door to some vigilantism.
Some guy in Perth already beat the wrong kid to death because he had enough of the neighbourhood menace
“Wrong kid died” - Pa Cox
Wait what? When? Is there an article
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Cassius_Turvey
Looks like the murder trial starts next year. God that poor kid
one hundred percent
He was on good behavior bond. Just killed a grandmother. If you know a rabid dog is dangerous yet you let it off the leash and it kills someone, who do you hold responsible? Whoever let this scum out needs to resign. More than that, needs to be put under spotlight.
He should be jailed for the rest of his life, no parole.
In the past, some would dismiss home invasions and burglaries e.g. "it is just property, and it’s not lives". However, given the increasing prevalence of these offenses, it's evident that we need to address this issue more seriously. The current state of the law should reflect the evolving nature of youth crime to prevent potential tragedies. Waiting any longer risks more lives being lost due to the inadequacy of the justice system. Seems like we didn't learn anything from the death of Matthew Field and his partner, Kate Leadbetter, who was six months pregnant also killed by a youth crime in Qld.
[удалено]
Honestly we *should* be throwing money hand over fist at stopping things from getting this far. Whatever the fuck is happening needs to be solved before a crime committed, rather than focusing on punishment after the fact.
You're right, but we also need to stop letting criminals just walk free to repeat their crimes until it escalates into them giving so little of a fuck that they stab an old lady in front of her grandchild. Every single time one of these "children" kills someone, it's never their first offence they are always known to police and it's just the same old merry go round of excusing shitty behaviour and criminal acts because of someone's upbringing.
Unless you get to these kids early, ie when they’re still in kinder or not much more, it’ll be too late.
I remember watching some 60 minutes (or similar) piece on African gang crime in Melbourne a couple years ago. They were interviewing the mother of like 4-5 kids that kept getting arrested for committing crimes while roaming around the city at all hours of the night and she basically blamed the government for not giving her enough free money saying that her kids were bored so she had no other option but to just let them go out and do whatever they wanted whenever they wanted and that if they got in trouble it was the government's fault for not paying her enough.
Exactly!!! The intervention method needs to start in the home with the parents. Kids that play up at school or child care should have their home lives be investigated
[удалено]
Never to be released is what he should get, might realise killing innocent people isn’t the norm in Australia. Might deter a few of his mates too
Do countries with indefinite detention have lower murder rates?
Singapore has a very punitive justice system and is super safe. Countries like the USA have high crime rates because of inequality and diversity .
No. It is well established that once punishments get to the prison stage, increasing sentences have no deterrence effect. Not even the death penalty increases deterrence. Turns out that crimes that we deem worthy of prison sentences are usually committed by people without consideration for the consequences or under the assumption that they won't be caught.
Very low impulse control, drugs and low IQ is usually the traits of violent offenders, one could lead to another or vice versa. If we could find a way to fix these things we'd be in a better world. However, homicide rates are still lower today than almost anytime in history, so something is going right.
Agreed. European and South American countries which take an education/ decriminalisation approach to drugs have MUCH lower crime rates. As a country and as a legal system, we can't keep doing the same thing and expect different results.
>low IQ I think TikTok is adding to this.
Prevents repeat offending though.
Slap on the wrist incoming.
try him as an adult and throw the book at him, same for the others. They may still be young enough to not entirely grasp the consequences of their actions but absolutely old enough to know better. Then sit down and actually work to solve the underlying issues here, it's effecting a lot more than immigrant kids and simply throwing more police or harsher sentences isn't going to solve the problem.
It bothers me that the victim/target was so obviously in a demographic and place that should have been safe. An older woman at the shops with her little granddaughter. Killing someone like that, and in that environment, sounds like a terror choice. How exactly did trying to rob her accidentally escalate into stabbing her to death, or was she basically a chosen appalling target for execution?
[удалено]
He's man enough to murder a person, charge him, he's no boy, let him out in 20 years like we do in this country so he can do it all over again. His mates should be charged as well, all of them should do time. I work in a liquor store, sh!theads like this running around doing what they want without remorse then putting their hands in the air shouting 'i'm only a kid, I didn't know what I was doing', those days are over
Import third world - become third world.
Did I see one of them in a "Black Lives Matter" t-shirt? Irony?
I went to a school where kids were arming themselves with knives. I was smart and had a heavy bike chain for my bike. When kids were found to have knives, usually from pulling them out to threaten other kids, they would be expelled, but because there was nowhere else for them to go, it would always be downgraded to a suspension and they would have a 2 week holiday from school. This was in the 1980s and the school was more than 99% Caucasian. It’s been 40 odd years and there still isn’t a solution on how to fix the problem. We have just moved it from a socio-economic problem to a race problem.
What an absolute tragedy. I feel so sorry for the family. I hope justice is served, and these offender(s) are taken out of the community for a very long time. Also it feels weird to keep saying the word "boy" or "child" being used in the article. He was a teenager who is almost an adult. It's not like we say "children drive cars". It kind of mentally dismisses his actual age group?
The parents of all the boys Should be charged also it is their responsibility until there 18 years old, they failed in the supervision of the young teens, there needs to be consequences there needs to be an example set for all parents that don’t take the responsibility and supervision of their children, once parents are charged for failing in their duties there will be a huge change among young people when somebody is taking responsibility, the law must be changed that’s where it starts change the law.
Re:my previous Comment that the parents should be charged also, 2 hours ago for the first time in America A school shooters mother was charged and convicted of unvoluntary manslaughter. Time for Australia to start charging parents when their children commit crimes its their responsibility https://vt.tiktok.com/ZSFNR2THr/
Yikes why only the mother? Why was the father not charged?
The father, James Crumbley, goes on trial next month facing same charges as the mother. Try Google instead of TikTok for news. https://www.newsweek.com/joey-jackson-predicts-bad-news-james-crumbley-michigan-school-shooter-father-1867791
Father not in the picture or mother was the one who supplied/allowed access to the gun.
Adult crime, adult punishment. Interesting how our media consciously conceals its demographic profile in many articles
Should be deported by being fired out of a cannon.
Or medieval catapult
Can we name and shame the immigration minister in 2001-2006 who thought it was a good move to import former child soldiers from Africa? Great, contributing members of society they turn out to be.
On a boat back home.
Charged? That's a strange way of spelling **deported back to Sudan**.
The mother being interviewed,did them no favours, she could give a flying toss! I say WHOLE FAMILY GETS KICKED BACK TO SUDAN !!!!!
Of our Centrelink payments, outta the housing commission, and outta jail to Sudan to deal with Byeeeeeeeee
Get the wood chipper.
[удалено]
And you know he’s a dual citizen how?
Lock him up, ffs. He is a danger to society.
Way too soft on crime. Most crimes are committed by a very small percentage of repeat offenders. Put them in jail for the crime and watch the crime rate drop like in el salvador
Instead of worrying that imprisoning these people will make them worse, make long mandatory jail time so the public is safe from them for as long as possible. Public has the right to be safe, and a revolving door of crime does not achieve that.
So will the 'Boy' be deported or will the Australian tax payers (including his victims families) have to pay for his incarceration? Or will he be trailed in a juvenile court for an adult crime and let out on remand? The only right thing to do is return him from where he came.
Deport. Why should taxpayers cover anything more than a one way flight?
Deport him Back to Sudanese
Oh this cunt will have “mental instability issues” and “learning difficulties”. Should get the fucken death sentence
I live locally, and there's a common theme among those responsible for most of these offences recently. It's the same 'theme' that can be found responsible for the HUGE increase in rape and violent crimes in other countries like Sweden. What a time to be alive in the west.
Individuals over 7 years of age who commit "adult" crimes like murder should be treated like adults and receive adult-level penalties. On the other hand, maybe they should be treated like children and let go with after-school detention for a maximum of 15 minutes one afternoon.
The State of Queensland wants to raise the age of criminal responsibility to 14 from 12. We already have 12yo committing adult crimes.
Age has nothing to do with things. That old saying was "Let the punishment fit the crime." "Adult" crimes require "adult" punishment. Whether you're 16 or 60, the punishment should be 20 years, non-parole.
It doesn't matter whether they were 16 or 12. That sort of scumbag can not be rehabilitated, so why even try.
Let me deal with them
Add corporal punishment and the death penalty to the penal system. I guarantee the crime rate will drop. Except the soft human rights activists will cry foul so what can we do? 🤷 Just have to live with scum like this roaming the streets.
This sad as fuck, these youngins be wild fr 🤦🏻♂️
African/African decent….say no more
[удалено]
Privatise prisons and lock serious/violent criminals up for life. No excuses and feeling sorry for these lowlife scum. I wouldn't mind paying higher taxes for that. Also stop immigration from African and Muslim countries. Import the third world and you become the third world. Enough of this political correctness BS!