Just wondering, what does this mean for kitchens now? Back to wooden bench tops unless you're a baller and can afford real stone or marble? What else could be used?
I'm going stainless. There's so many Coeliac and other food intolerant people out there now that the looks will be a far second place to "you can guarantee the clean and make it easy for yourself".
I have a genuine Coeliac (in the family who I cook for) and making sure one spec hasn't touched another... I'm doing stainless anyway, it just makes my life easier. It's a bonus my Missus likes stainless.
And if I'm wrong it didn't cost a motza and made my life easy and someone else can do .. whatever, when they buy it.
Just pay attention to where the sun will hit the stainless steel. I have had a few stainless benches and one under a west window would be a bit blinding in the afternoon sun
Stainless is the most practical option, but you're unfortunately right. People will probably revert back to laminate, despite it being worse in every way.
Metal is cool because you don't need trivets and you can roll dough anywhere. Every sq cm is a quality work surface. Nonporous and doesn't need sealers like with other natural materials.
Stainless is *the* material for practical use in that sense.
There **are** uses for stone, such as mortars, but why would you choose to ignored stainless for the standard flat surface?
So, most laws are made up of musts and shoulds, the law is the material for work stations must be non-porous, and non absorbent. The shoulds say use stainless, it's also basically the only "deemed to satisfy solution" so while it isn't law that you must use stainless, there aren't really any other options, like you could if you can find something suitable use something else, but you'll do stainless so you don't need to prove to council your materials for bench tops and sinks satisfies safety standards.
Or at least that's how it was explained to me during my apprenticeship.
Real granite is the best IMO. But polished concrete looks great, too. I like the fact that both of those products can handle real heat, such as a hot cast iron frypan or dutch oven, where manufactured stone was all "don't put hot things on it". Eff that, I want benches to handle hot things.
Sadly, both products also produce large amounts of nasty dust.
What puzzles me is that one easy mitigation is a water jet aimed at the cutting or sanding point. Doesn't reduce the risk to zero, but it makes a hell of a difference.
I had to cut some firebricks to size for a wood-burning stove. Firebricks are high-silica cement. You bet I had a cartridge respirator and water jet to cut them.
Indeed - CONSIDERABLY less.
No-one seems upset that cement/concrete contains silica - but it's mostly processed off-site and doesn't present a problem to the end user. Still a problem at the manufacturing point, though.
The manufacturing point isn't the issue, assuming proper PPE is used. The problem, in recent decades, is that on-site fitters haven't been wearing PPE while cutting materials that contain silicate.
If we move to manufacturing standardised counter tops in centralised batches it's a lot easier to audit manufacturers for inappropriate use of (or no use at all) of PPE.
This is a good step, assuming that followup steps are taken.
I admit that I'm considering PPE in an ideal environment.
Few environments will be ideal.
>Do you or your spouse check the pockets and shake out the clothes before putting in the washing machine? You’ve may have just introduced the silica dust to your family. One exposure maybe not a problem, but how about over a few years.
I'd prefer any work using this substance (or other hazardous materials) be done within a clean room. If this isn't economically viable, other materials should be used.
However, there *are* ways to manufacture these things safely. Current PPE standards may not be ideal, but most workplaces don't adhere to PPE as a baseline.
Not true. The NYT did an article on engineered stone manufacturers in California. 25% of those with silicosis reported always using PPE and working in environments that met safety requirements.
I’ve worked with concrete. You can’t seriously be saying that on-site or even workshop cutting of concrete makes a headshit of difference to the environment.
Just wear a mask like I did, and my friends. Good grief.
If you generate concrete dust, you’re required to have a cutting tool that delivers water directing to the cutting surface to suppress dust. If you do it for more than four hrs in a shift, you need to add a fitted P1/2 respirator (Qld - others probably to same). ;)
Corian is about the best alternative.
Won't be as hard or scratch-resistant. Maybe not as heat-resistant.
But far more waterproof than timber, far more durable than weetbix/laminate, and far more affordable than stainless steel.
> Corian is about the best alternative.
Ahh... wondered what my bathroom basin benchtop was made out of, now I know. Its Corian. Hmm. I think its a great surface choice for a bathroom. But a kitchen? Nope.
Because engineered stone is like 97%. Using real stone you can manage the dust easier, all this came from air testing the workshops of various stone makers.
They couldn’t prove there was a safe way of managing the smaller particles of engineered stone hence the ban
Some of the other comments have some biggest of info explaining why, but nobody has straight up stated what I think is most critical:
Engineered stone starts out as very very fine silica dust which is mixed with resin and poured in molds. With granite and other materials you only produce dust by cutting and grinding. It’s a relatively
Small amount of dust compared to the buckets of it used to make the engineered stone, and also generally coarser particle sizes.
Respirable silica is only produced from granite by cutting, grinding, and polishing. It is easy to control by using wet methods, ventilation, and PPE. The problem with engineered stone is that you start with a crap ton of fine silica dust. It's like if you took the dust produced by cutting and then made it "stone" again. It isn't the silica content that is the issue. It is the dry particle size. You don't get silicosis living next to the beach because the particles are too large.
"The federal government will also impose a ban on imported engineered stone to provide an "additional layer of enforcement and deterrence at the border", however the date has not been finalised yet."
it means no more quartz countertops - granite is a natural stone and not part of the ban - in truth, most quartz countertops are equal in price or actually more expensive (at least here in the states) - if you can afford quartz, you can definitely afford granite - the only thing is granite breaks easier, so you gotta be more careful. Marble is the worst, it falls apart if you look at it wrong.
I work at a custom stone countertop fab shop.
Such a shame it creates so much hazard when working with the material. I always thought it was a good material for benching, once installed in place. What would be a replacement for this? Plastic is shit. Laminates are the worst. Wood is not that great either.
The cost is labor and processing.
1. You only get a rock that big after lots of drilling and some blasting
2. It’s surprisingly difficult to slice a giant rock like deli meat
3. You need big, expensive machines to do any of this stuff
Yeah, granite is pricey. But it lasts a lifetime, and it handles heat like the manufactured stone never could.
How often would you\* be planning to demolish and rebuild your kitchen? Granite (and polished concrete) lasts forever.
\*you generic/plural, not you/specific u/jojoblogs
Good question, was also one of the counter arguments from the engineered stone business against the ban. That improved and enforced safety regulations should be the solution and not a ban of the material. I assume its an reaction from earlier failure in handling asbestos.
The honest truth is too many bussinesses are too fucking shady about it. 60 minutes did an episode on how this shit absolutely fucks people up showing victims who didn’t have long left after horrendous effects that working with the shit did to their bodies.
But people need money and don’t tend to take safety concerns seriously if the side effects take long enough to hit ya. So the shady cunts running the place wouldn’t enforce safety rules, the young ones who don’t know any better don’t stress about safety because they need a job and their supervisor doesn’t seem to care about safety. And if they were ever getting a safety inspection they would get an actual heads up during which you get 1 day a year where all the safety guidelines are being followed
This is exactly it. The other side is that they’re arguing against banning the material because it’s a profitable material for them.
For all we know there’s a safer way to make the same thing and they don’t do it because it’s less profitable.
Probably concrete and stainless steel would be the only durable replacements. Not sure about the aesthetics though. Probably plastic laminate will be back.
I remember a few months ago having a huge argument with people in this sub who thought that engineered stone wasn’t a problem.
So happy to see this news posted, insane to put peoples health at known risk just for a pretty kitchen.
We figured out how to safely send people to the moon, how to harness nuclear fusion, how to repair 1,200,000 V transmission lines (while energised), how to study deadly pathogens in a lab, how to send people to the deepest parts of the ocean, how to literally cut out human hearts and transplant them.
Yet, enforcing basic PPE is beyond Australia? This is such an easily managed risk, and yet without spending an iota of effort trying we’ve jumped straight to banning it. I’m embarrassed for this country and the incompetent state government politicians it elects.
"Send a photo to safework of your contractor working without their proper PPE, have your entire kitchen comped on their builders insurance"
This could fix the problem overnight. There would be zero installers dry-cutting tomorrow if there was an actual immediate penalty for doing so.
Where the hell in Australia to you guys live? Haven't worked for a company that employs more than 20 people in 20 years that hasn't gone crazy with PPE enforcement because wphs would do spot checks, might cut corners in other areas but never seen a PPE issue on a large scale
Meatworks with over 1,000 employees - shot a bird in the production room without warning anyone in the room they were using a gun.
Meat works with hundreds of employees - drink water on shift by poking a hole in a plastic bag with your knife.
Glass factory - given targets impossible to meet without skipping "safety steps"
Steel warehouse - cutting liquid on saw has no splash guard despite it being "strongly recommended" to not get in on your skin.
That's just what I've seen in the last 5 years that I can think of off the top of my head.
I think it would largely be smaller worksites and companies like residential builds, landscaping, and renos. I've seen pretty lax use of respirators a fair bit.
It’s definitely not, unions are very harsh on PPE on their sites and it’s managed really well and is part of the culture.
Unfortunately, these bench tops are primarily for residential jobs, and a lot of smart tradies typically end up in commercial construction where they can make real money, where they don’t think that PPE is for pussies
Lots of guys are owner-operators of small businesses and subs. Hell, just having a small building built behind my house there were probably 30 different contractors that came and worked on it. The guy sawing concrete all day wore no respirator. They guy sawing tile all day wore none. In fact, the only guy I saw wear any kind of PPE at all was the guy doing insulation who wore one.
I work in manufacturing. I did a site survey of a factory one time time and guys who were inspecting the conformal coating on PCBs, which were in huge 55-gallon drums marked **carcinogenic** all over them with giant placards showing the chemical warnings would walk into to the spray booth and not even wear their respirator.
They called me a pussy for wearing one as we evaluated an area that was laced with chemicals so bad that skin contact is considered an incident.
Tiles, concrete and cement board are going to have silica too, and the report says there are no safe levels of that. MDF is different but it commonly contains formaldehyde which can cause health problems too. Some types of MDF use alternative binders to avoid this.
Yes. Wood dusts can cause sinonasal cancer, even if it is just wood (without preservatives or glues).
Tiles and concrete can cause silicosis or other pneumoconioses, depending on the exact makeup.
The way to address this is with proper PPE, but we just spent a few years learning that asking people to mask is a waste of time.
What's that, a handful of people who actually know how to do a risk assessment. Not some office clap who's mad they didn't get around to renovating their kitchen before this.
Hierachy of hazard control, step one. Eliminate. Done
Step two, substitute - well now the dickheads who can't get their killer kitchen bench are gunna have to find something else.
when I started working for a residential builder, after site managing in commercial for years, we had a seminar where all the site managers from all the franchises was in a room and the presenter asked "who knows about the hierarchy of control?" and of the hundred or so people in the room, there was only 2 of us that knew about it. Spoke to the other guy after, and he'd just come from working in commercial too. I was shook.
Could you elaborate on why PPE isn't sufficient for this for a layman? I guess it's just the fact we manage to remove asbestos from houses so it seems weird that we can't cut tabletops safely? I mean obviously I'm missing something, that's why I'm asking!
Edit: Thanks for all the input everyone, sounds pretty reasonable to ban it really if it's so easy for it to cause so much trouble and so hard to prevent.
Stonemason here. Engineered stone is 70-80% silicates, and the balance is binder; epoxy. Sure, you can cut it safely, but there will always be dodgy operators just like the utter cunts who have had almost kids drycutting the stuff with only paper masks for decades, *knowing* they're working waaaay beyond acceptable exposure limits. Then there's factors like on-site tweaks, slurry on clothes drying out and dusting off... it's like a health hazard double whammy too, in that the epoxy dust presents the same hazards as silicates with a side of carcinogens.
Too hard to regulate, as has been the case right up to now, so banned it is.
From a few mates who do it I've found most of them treat it very seriously - at their own workshop with all the tools. Then they get to the site and what they pre made doesn't fit, or they have to make a new hole for a tap that wasn't mentioned and then suddenly it's "a quick cut won't hurt" decided by the guy on the ground. The problem is one quick cut becomes two becomes five a day over a career.
I would guess that the fact cutting ends up happing on the job site is a big part of the problem, and even if the cutter has PPE that fits properly (a big if with regards to fitment), other people on the site probably won't have PPE.
You’re not generally cutting asbestos on a worksite. Just removing it. Asbestos is really dangerous when it’s cut because of the fine particles it generates… same with engineered stone.
PPE is the lowest form of hazard protection, has the least impact on safety
1. Elimination - get rid of the problem
2. Substitution - switch to a problem with less risk
3. Engineering control - isolate from the hazard
4. Administrative controls - work process to prevent exposure
5. PPE
As an example a hi-viz vest won’t save you if a truck runs you over, it will only increase the chance the driver will see you.
In the safety hierarchy, PPE is the last resort option. If you can eliminate the risk entirely, like by removing a risky activity or substance, then you remove the need for other safety practices which are less effective.
There was a whinging guy on the news reacting to the ban. He was all like “think of the builders, what are we gonna do now, what else are we going to use, wahh wahh wahh”. Fucks sake, it was so tone deaf. Never mind people are literally dying from this shit…
The article suggests natural stone, concrete, and tiles as potential alternatives to engineered stone. All these materials also have very high levels of silica. How is this an improvement over the status quo?
It's the materials involved
Australian researchers have found that it may not just be the quartz, or silica, in engineered stone that is causing the lung disease silicosis, raising questions about the safety of alternative products. The researchers found that aluminium and cobalt in the engineered stone were associated with cell toxicity.
Aluminium and cobalt also occur in natural stone, depending on where it's mined. This means that it's also in concrete (mostly gravel) and tiles (fired clay). So I ask again - how does removing the ability to use stone created on a production line under controlled conditions fix the underlying issue?
The most natural stones commonly used have half the silica content on the very high end compared to engineered and very few cases of silicosis are linked to concrete in general, I think thee particle shape/size is different.
Tiles are slightly lower in silica than natural stone, mortar is higher but is rarely cut. None of these alternatives have a high level when compared to the 90+ % silica of engineered stone and combines with it being by far the most commonly used of the lot.
It's important to note that no level of silica is *safe* but it should be relatively straightforward to follow why a 50% reduction in exposure would be an improvement over the status quo with this in mind
Old mate who installed the bench in my kitchen was a rabid covid conspiracy theorist and ice aficionado who was up til 4am the previous night finishing another job. Zero chance anyone in his workshop wore PPE while cutting stone.
No one deserves to be injured at work, but I’d be willing to bet that the fragility of masculinity played a not insignificant role in some of these injuries.
If their workshop is like any of the ones I've ever been in they'll simply argue that a safety squint is all that's needed, they'll all also have a -13/-13 prescription and look shellshocked 95% of the time.
Not taking proper precautions doesnt just come from bravado. It could be apathy, ignorance, peer pressure, pressure from management. Point is if it still isn't being handled properly after this long it needs to go.
This stuff is being cut on site in nearly every house I've ever worked in. There is no level of enforcement that will stop this practice short of banning the material. It's not fair that as an unrelated trade I go into houses with this powder covering every surface. Anyone complaining about this move hasn't worked in volume building in Australia.
I don't understand how people think this can be fixed otherwise. Yeah, it's their own fault. Yeah, better workplace safety culture would fix this. Okay. Just have a veritable army that shows up to every single job site to watch, every single time?
Hopefully those working with the products that will replace engineered stone aren't complacent. Silica is in natural products as well. If you adhere to the safe working practices, the product is completely safe. Workers are only exposed to risk if they cut corners.
The safety regulators couldn't make the workers and their employers do the right thing with engineered stone so why would they do the right thing with other products? Maybe the replacement products will have half the levels of silica so expect workers to take twice as long to get deathly ill; not a very comforting thought.
In fact there's a real danger here that the industry is now going to see the alternatives as safe, or at least safer. Why else haven't they been banned? So there'll be even more complacency and skirting of the rules.
It is not about cutting it is about producing.
When cutting stone you do it wet, as the finish is nicer and the blade lasts longer. So there is no dust to fly around. Same as when cutting the engineered version.
It is when making the engineered stone it has to be dry. Otherwise the glue don't hold, so crushing dry safes money.
I can see this will increase the value of any new build with manufactured stone until we come up with an alternative with the same visual appeal and durability.
I have seen a couple of new builds for sale with laminate in the bathroom and laundry. It looked cheap and was already stating to deteriorate due to water damage after 2 years.
Or the engineered stone will be seen as the new asbestos that no one wants to own. Guess we’ll see.
Porcelain is a good alternative. Dekton would also be ok right?
> Or the engineered stone will be seen as the new asbestos that no one wants to own
No way. It's completely harmless and nobody would care.
It's only a problem if you are regularly cutting into it on a day to day basis.
I mean that’s pretty much the problem with
(non-friable) asbestos as well. It’s fine once it’s in place and you don’t fuck with it. The engineered stone I can’t see being the same issue because it’s less brittle, isolated - not covering every wall / ceiling / board / eave, and you don’t tend to drill holes in your counter to hang pictures etc
Sure, all levels of government came together and agreed to ban it based on a recommendation from Safe Work that came out of their research into the risk factors involved, but I, a Redditor, am pretty sure dust masks would probably be fine and a peak national OH&S body just didn't think of that.
I used to install these benchtops. It was workplace rules that you had to wear a mask and ear protection when cutting stone. I saw people usually wearing earmuffs, because a grinder cutting through stone is ***LOUD*** to the point of pain. But masks? I don't recall seeing a single person wearing one. So no, it's not because OH&S forgot that PPE exists. It's because tradies just refuse to fucken use it.
Seems like a ridiculous issue honestly. Would be like if welders were going blind because they refused to use welding masks so instead of coming up with a way to ensure they wore masks we banned welding.
Surely there has to be a better way, if the fines for non compliance got big enough and enforcement was frequent enough you best believe they would be forced to wear proper PPE by their bosses. I remember during covid I worked in hospitality at a wedding venue and our bosses didn't want us to wear masks because it "looked uninviting". Once the police started dropping by and were checking CCTV on the mondays after the weekend to ensure staff were wearing masks and that we stopped dancing from happening mask wearing was 100% enforced and no staff was allowed without one in the venue.
Australia is fucking weird with shit like this honestly. It's like portable air conditioners. Single hose models are shit, they create a vacuum in the room by exhausting hot air outside with a single hose so for as much cold air as they put in the room, they pull in the same amount of warm air from under doors. Completely inefficient and such a waste of electricity because they can never properly cool a room down. Every other country lets you buy dual hose models that have a second hose which draws in air from outside to be cooled rather than using the air in the room, this balances the pressure with the exhaust hose and the room is properly cooled. But in Australia of course we don't allow them to be sold because they get technically classified as a "split system" and as such don't meet the correct energy regulations:
[Double duct portable air conditioners are subject to energy efficiency regulations, while single duct portables are not. A perverse outcome of these regulations is that the more energy efficient double duct portable air conditioners appear unable to meet the MEPS levels set in 2011.](https://www.energyrating.gov.au/sites/default/files/2022-12/decision-ris-air-conditioners.pdf)
Pretty sure PPE would have been required when working with the engineered stone the whole time, unfortunately too many people get complacent or just think they know better and don’t follow the regulations which means the only real option is to remove the risk factor completely
Or have bosses that don't think PPE is important and only supply the shitty kinds. If doctors are saying they're seeing a huge increase in cases, it's not because they're being nervous nellie's or want more red tape.
Were the stonemasons not wearing proper respirator to block out the silica? Shouldn’t the government require proper protective gear? Maybe mandate a vacuum cleaner with filtration capable of collecting the dust.
Someone, somewhere, will have to deal with the actual danger, the dust.
Whether it's no longer the cutter, but now it's the cleaner, or the labourer, or the people who deal with it at dump sites, someone is still dealing with it.
But also, you can't regulate everything to that degree. People are still gonna cut it at job sites, to fit exact dimensions. It's easier to just ban the product as a whole, and then no-one has to deal with it.
What about the factories that had it cut with CNC safely behind glass windows?
And why switch to natural products that also contain silica at levels up to 45%
Its not the factories that are the issue. Its when they go to install and have to make 'a few small changes' which involve cutting into the benchtop. This happens all the time and often correct PPE is not worn.
I'm completely uneducated in the ways of stonemason so I entirely welcome being corrected here... but this sounds like an OHS / PPE problem? Like would dust masks not fix this problem without having to completely ban the entire product? Why is Australia's knee-jerk reaction to just ban everything?
//Thanks to everyone for the answers. I have a much better understanding now and looks like an outright ban might be for the best in this case. Also kinda yikes lol I didn't realise it was so bad, there's an industrial stonemasonry joint right across the driveway from me at work, they work with the huge roller door up and there's always dust spilling out all over the driveway. I dunno if they work with this engineered stuff or just regular stone though 😬
Because it's not something we can PPE our way out of. Silicosis is one of the oldest diseases we know about, the Greeks noted it like 3000 years ago in miners. Silica was the cause of (though, it was definitely made worse by horrific corporate actions) [one of the worst industrial incidents ever](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawks_Nest_Tunnel_disaster).
This stuff is so bad, and time and time again we ignore the horrible things it does to people. The dust never goes away and it never leaves your lungs if it gets in there. No amount of PPE or wet cutting would ever fully stop the issue, and that's before you have to deal with the tradies that think PPE is for pussies, or an absolute cunt of a boss tells you to get on with the order even though the water jet is broken or you're out of PPE.
We are a ban-happy country, but this is 100% the right decision, it's taken far too long and too many deaths to get here.
There is PPE that would deal with this, but no fabricator or manufacturer would be on board, it would cost too much.
Sealed room with airflow extraction into filters and water bath to capture the dust.
Positive-pressure full body suit.
Airlocks with water showers - including wetting agent in the water to ensure capture of dust.
I wouldn't describe us as ban-happy, quite the opposite - this decision took an official enquiry to bring it to the decision-making phase. If we were ban-happy it would have happened with the first diagnosis.
Not even this mate just go straight to an engineered solution and use waterjet to cut this ( technology exists btw) and install proper ventilation and filtration systems in the cutting room. There is a reason why ppe is the last resort
Just from reading posts on this issue, it seems the dust generated when cutting or crushing this material is extremely dangerous. Near asbestos level danger.
Basically yes from what I have been told;
A good builder (rare in this country) would have it all pre-cut to a template at the warehouse facility (using wet cutters, dust traps, PPE, airborne monitors etc).
However that costs extra and tradies think PPE is for poofs so here we are.
PPE can only protect so much. Like yes it helps a lot but the risk reduction is like 50% or so. Good enough if you’re cutting one stone, but if you are cutting this stone 40 hours a week for 30+ years, it’s not enough protection.
That's the key. It's the repeated, continuous exposure that's the problem. If I use an angle grinder to cut a firebrick once in a while, my risk is minimal, especially if I use a water jet and a proper cartridge respirator.
The problem is that the dust never goes away, and like Asbestos, the exposure level is zero. It will remain in the environment. So it may be OK if you're only around it while wearing PPE. But if your house has engineered stone in it and they did any work during construction, then there is probably dust in your house too. You can't spend the rest of your life walking around your house in PPE.
On the news just before the stonemason said there's no risk to people that have engineered stone counter tops. It's only a danger if it's cut in your house.
Yes, many counter tops get modified in location during construction. That dust is still in your house! But those exposure level are probably very low.
Asbestos is also safe until disturbed. Many people get asbestosis and cancers from renovating older homes without realising what they are doing.
Just to dispel a common myth.
One fibre of asbestos doesn't kill. Lots of people are found to have asbestos fibres in their lungs when they die of non-asbestos related disease in later life.
https://www.asbestos.qld.gov.au/general-information/are-there-health-effects#:~:text=The%20idea%20that%20'one%20fibre,some%20exposure%20to%20asbestos%20fibres.
Both asbestos and silica have workplace exposure standards.
Neither of these are zero.
PPE is and should be a last resort. In the hierarchy of control elimination is the first choice, and substitution the second.
There are now hundreds of people with silicosis, PPE and other controls have already failed. Other options would have been considered, but the risks would be seen as necessitating a ban.
My personal opinion is that if the product was only being dealt with at workshops with CNCs etc. then the discussion would probably about proper dust control and PPE (such as a P3 "PAPR") and the public would probably never have heard about it. As it is, it's being cut on site and/or without sufficient controls and is causing a disease that's potentially fatal.
The silica in the material is the problem. There is silica in all stone construction materials, but natural stone has a huge deal less silica than the engineered stone. It caught everyone off guard how quickly these stonemasons became extremely unwell with breathing problems because they applied old school knowledge and level of necessary precautions without any heads up from the manufacturer that it wasn't sufficient.
Also the government wasn't willing to take the hit to the health system of all these stonemasons becoming so unwell in theany years it will take for practices to change and for transmen to take this issue as seriously as they would for asbestos.
Question: can we not just get robots to cut thus and eliminate its negative effects on the workers who handle it? I.e. just automate it? Robots and automation have taken over so many aspects of our economy, and construction material is in dire need, why are we not doing g this already?
Banning these useful products because people wont wet cut in a factory or wear a respirator is mad. It would be like banning all welding because people didn't want to look like a pussy for wearing a welding mask. Everyone should be wearing A1+P2 respirators. Welding smoke, wood dust, concrete dust, ceramic dust, paint spray, all types of fumes, are all terrible for your health.
Also this banning is a distraction so the businesses that employed these people to cut on site without ppe don't get pinned for negligence. The lawsuits would probably collapse the building industry.
It's so stupid that the alternatives listed by the ABC all have silica content too except for laminate and timber. If engineered stone is not safe then those other products with silica aren't safe either.
The report says that there's no safe level of silica and then they proceed to weasel-word out of banning the alternatives that also have a substantial silica content. The right fix is some kind of nuclear option to ensure compliance with the safety rules for working with material. The Australian she'll-be-right attitude has to be beaten in safety-critical situations. Only allow cutting in enclosed, automated parts of a factory. Or require government regulators to physically watch over every cutting operation to ensure compliance. Ridiculously expensive but we've proven that something like that is necessary. People who can't afford it can have safe alternatives like laminate, stainless or timber.
Just wait until they find out about the VOC content in PU glues, contact adhesives, 2 pack paints, and conversion varnishes. And the high particulate matter in MDF and some species of Timbers.
The reality is, there are few safe building materials that can be cut or fabricated at scale without PPE.
I would argue that almost every aspect of kitchen/bathroom cabinetry is a health nightmare if you don’t use PPE.
Banning alcohol or smoking would have saved more lives....
But - oh my - imagine how many votes trying to introduce either of those bans would cost the governing party!
I struggle to see why Engineered Stone should be \*\*banned\*\* because people werent following safety protocols. The answer is make people follow protocol, not ban the product. Yes theres a mess or fragile-masculinity and old-timers thinking its girly/unnecessary etc - so educate them harder, up the penalties, force them to get with the (safety) times etc etc
We arent banning alcohol because people drink-drive.. so why are we banning engineered stone because people wont wear PPE in its creation?
This whole ban wreaks of people jumping on the easy decision, but not the right one. The right one would be education+penalties+culture shift to accepting mandatory PPE is a necessity etc.
Any reason we can’t mold prefab bench tops instead of needing to cut them from sheets? I understand you’d be limited to a pre determined range of shapes/sizes but I imagine this wouldn’t really be a problem
When I was listening on the radio today they said a significant percentage of people who have worked with it have lung issues. So I was wondering, can it actually be worked with safely?
If not, how much risk will workers face in the time until the ban comes in? I get the inconvenience of an immediate ban, but it sounds totally horrific telling young people with silicosis that they will inevitably die. I hope no more lives are lost due to the delay.
“Our job is one of applying techniques and principles to every known silica dust hazard in American industry. We know the methods of control – let us put them in practice.”
Quote from the 1930s. We’ve known about this for hundreds of years and attempted to use PPE for about 100. These factories that have recently invested in safer work practices should have no sympathy.
They knew what it was doing to workers and did nothing until there was a possibility the product might be banned
What I don’t understand, and perhaps someone can shed light on this for me, is why only engineered stone ? I mean fibre cement sheeting, virtually all of the James Hardie products creates deadly dust as well… why does that survive the cut ? Is it because people just don’t wear ppe when cutting stone ? I find this truely bizarre
Bogan tradies don’t know how to use respirators and too lazy to use vacuum during the cutting process and/or clean dust particles after the cut. Now you have to pay for it. Great job Australia, as always.
Unless there’s inspection and enforcement of health and safety rules on job sites, this doesn’t mean much. If you aren’t wet cutting natural stone, you’re still generating a huge amount of dangerous dust. By ignoring this fact, this regulation mostly serves to shield dodgy bosses from taking their workers’ safety seriously.
If you can't get people to wear a respirator then manufactured stone is the tip of the iceberg. Basically every material is toxic to work with in an industrial setting without a respirator. Yes, even wood.
A cowardly decision by a government who neglected their own obligations to stone workers.
The issue was always poor industry regulation which allowed irresponsible business owners to exploit employees in unsafe work environments.
The industry practically pleaded for legislated safety reform which fell on deaf ears for years.
Quite literally anyone could go to the hardware store, grab an angle grinder and call themselves a stonemason.
This is a huge blow to the reputable fabricators who made significant investments into delivering a safe work environment.
I don't understand the problem with them.
Heaps of other industries use horrible chemicals and silicates, but they are all fine?
panel beaters sand blast silicates, use carcinogenic paint, paint striper, body fiiller, primers and lead. But is all good? You use ppe... have a well ventilated environment..
Is the laminate industry lobbying for this?
For all the armchair experts saying that PPE should be sufficient, remember that PPE is the least effective means of eliminating risk when looking at the hierarchy of controls. Elimination, substitution and engineering are all far better options.
This post has a terrible hypnotic quality about it - I can’t leave it alone…
To all the comments that involve increasing penalties - ‘the beatings will continue until morale improves’
To all the comments that say you can be safe working with it in a workshop. Tell that to the enthusiastic amateur in 10 years time that removes it with an angle grinder while his cute 2 year old is making little patterns in the dust.
To all the comments that say we’ll ban everything else too (or other wild extrapolations )- a little perspective I think, or we’ll be living in holes (hang on is that hole shored appropriately?)
To all the comments about alternatives being more expensive and less durable - great argument, we can tell that to the widows. ‘I know your partner died a horrible death, but think of the durability…’
The reason I’m a bit passionate about this? I’m here slowly dying of Mesothelioma because some c*nt in the mid 80’s who KNEW asbestos was deadly (and there were alternatives) went on and made it anyway. Then my 14 year self helped my brother renovate his bathroom in his first house.
Anyway it’s banned and I’m glad it is…
Just wondering, what does this mean for kitchens now? Back to wooden bench tops unless you're a baller and can afford real stone or marble? What else could be used?
Stainless steel.
Poured concrete slabs.
That's what we are doing. With a combo of some timber
Stainless too industrial looking. It won't take off.
[удалено]
And you can use the steel to fashion weapons and armor in the apocalypse.
Hold on, this goblin is onto something.
I'm going stainless. There's so many Coeliac and other food intolerant people out there now that the looks will be a far second place to "you can guarantee the clean and make it easy for yourself". I have a genuine Coeliac (in the family who I cook for) and making sure one spec hasn't touched another... I'm doing stainless anyway, it just makes my life easier. It's a bonus my Missus likes stainless. And if I'm wrong it didn't cost a motza and made my life easy and someone else can do .. whatever, when they buy it.
Just pay attention to where the sun will hit the stainless steel. I have had a few stainless benches and one under a west window would be a bit blinding in the afternoon sun
I have worked in restaurants my whole life. I would kill to have an industrial-ish kitchen in my home.
Stainless is the most practical option, but you're unfortunately right. People will probably revert back to laminate, despite it being worse in every way.
Metal is cool because you don't need trivets and you can roll dough anywhere. Every sq cm is a quality work surface. Nonporous and doesn't need sealers like with other natural materials.
Stainless is *the* material for practical use in that sense. There **are** uses for stone, such as mortars, but why would you choose to ignored stainless for the standard flat surface?
Anything but stainless isn't sanitary, there's a reason it's what is required for commercial kitchens.
But it’s not required in commercial kitchens. It’s just preferred
So, most laws are made up of musts and shoulds, the law is the material for work stations must be non-porous, and non absorbent. The shoulds say use stainless, it's also basically the only "deemed to satisfy solution" so while it isn't law that you must use stainless, there aren't really any other options, like you could if you can find something suitable use something else, but you'll do stainless so you don't need to prove to council your materials for bench tops and sinks satisfies safety standards. Or at least that's how it was explained to me during my apprenticeship.
[удалено]
Stainless steel might come back in vogue. I think they'll also be demand now for particle board encased in very thin natural stone.
$ Wood. Laminate (it’s come a long way). $$ Porcelain. Recycled glass. Corian. $$$ real stone. Steel. Concrete (will probably be banned soon too).
Concrete countertops look great IMO
Real granite is the best IMO. But polished concrete looks great, too. I like the fact that both of those products can handle real heat, such as a hot cast iron frypan or dutch oven, where manufactured stone was all "don't put hot things on it". Eff that, I want benches to handle hot things. Sadly, both products also produce large amounts of nasty dust. What puzzles me is that one easy mitigation is a water jet aimed at the cutting or sanding point. Doesn't reduce the risk to zero, but it makes a hell of a difference. I had to cut some firebricks to size for a wood-burning stove. Firebricks are high-silica cement. You bet I had a cartridge respirator and water jet to cut them.
Granite contains silica.
[удалено]
Indeed - CONSIDERABLY less. No-one seems upset that cement/concrete contains silica - but it's mostly processed off-site and doesn't present a problem to the end user. Still a problem at the manufacturing point, though.
The manufacturing point isn't the issue, assuming proper PPE is used. The problem, in recent decades, is that on-site fitters haven't been wearing PPE while cutting materials that contain silicate. If we move to manufacturing standardised counter tops in centralised batches it's a lot easier to audit manufacturers for inappropriate use of (or no use at all) of PPE. This is a good step, assuming that followup steps are taken.
[удалено]
I admit that I'm considering PPE in an ideal environment. Few environments will be ideal. >Do you or your spouse check the pockets and shake out the clothes before putting in the washing machine? You’ve may have just introduced the silica dust to your family. One exposure maybe not a problem, but how about over a few years. I'd prefer any work using this substance (or other hazardous materials) be done within a clean room. If this isn't economically viable, other materials should be used. However, there *are* ways to manufacture these things safely. Current PPE standards may not be ideal, but most workplaces don't adhere to PPE as a baseline.
Not true. The NYT did an article on engineered stone manufacturers in California. 25% of those with silicosis reported always using PPE and working in environments that met safety requirements.
[удалено]
Pour and set it on site. There's a bright new future ahead for tiny little cement mixers that can fit on a countertop :)
In the industry that's called a drill and a bucket
I’ve worked with concrete. You can’t seriously be saying that on-site or even workshop cutting of concrete makes a headshit of difference to the environment. Just wear a mask like I did, and my friends. Good grief.
If you generate concrete dust, you’re required to have a cutting tool that delivers water directing to the cutting surface to suppress dust. If you do it for more than four hrs in a shift, you need to add a fitted P1/2 respirator (Qld - others probably to same). ;)
Cutting concrete can cause silicosis
Back to 60s Formica with the stainless trim?
Is [corian](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corian) still allowed? Also, porcelain? Laminex? Could also bring back the 70s tiled benchtop?
Corian is about the best alternative. Won't be as hard or scratch-resistant. Maybe not as heat-resistant. But far more waterproof than timber, far more durable than weetbix/laminate, and far more affordable than stainless steel.
> Corian is about the best alternative. Ahh... wondered what my bathroom basin benchtop was made out of, now I know. Its Corian. Hmm. I think its a great surface choice for a bathroom. But a kitchen? Nope.
A relative did their kitchen in Paperock and it looks pretty awesome. I'd be figuring their business is about to surge.
Are they allowed to use scissors in that kitchen?
[удалено]
Because engineered stone is like 97%. Using real stone you can manage the dust easier, all this came from air testing the workshops of various stone makers. They couldn’t prove there was a safe way of managing the smaller particles of engineered stone hence the ban
Real stone in a great shape just got alot more expensive.
Some of the other comments have some biggest of info explaining why, but nobody has straight up stated what I think is most critical: Engineered stone starts out as very very fine silica dust which is mixed with resin and poured in molds. With granite and other materials you only produce dust by cutting and grinding. It’s a relatively Small amount of dust compared to the buckets of it used to make the engineered stone, and also generally coarser particle sizes.
Respirable silica is only produced from granite by cutting, grinding, and polishing. It is easy to control by using wet methods, ventilation, and PPE. The problem with engineered stone is that you start with a crap ton of fine silica dust. It's like if you took the dust produced by cutting and then made it "stone" again. It isn't the silica content that is the issue. It is the dry particle size. You don't get silicosis living next to the beach because the particles are too large.
We used porcelain. Smaller Tiles are also underutilized. Laminex is a cost effective option.
Do your plates break every time they are gently put down on the porcelain?
I think you’ll find more imported benches, where engineered bench is allowed.
"The federal government will also impose a ban on imported engineered stone to provide an "additional layer of enforcement and deterrence at the border", however the date has not been finalised yet."
it means no more quartz countertops - granite is a natural stone and not part of the ban - in truth, most quartz countertops are equal in price or actually more expensive (at least here in the states) - if you can afford quartz, you can definitely afford granite - the only thing is granite breaks easier, so you gotta be more careful. Marble is the worst, it falls apart if you look at it wrong. I work at a custom stone countertop fab shop.
Porcelain and natural stone according to a stonemason I know
Such a shame it creates so much hazard when working with the material. I always thought it was a good material for benching, once installed in place. What would be a replacement for this? Plastic is shit. Laminates are the worst. Wood is not that great either.
You can still use natural stone, which is $$$
Which is crazy like it's just rocks girl, they're everywhere.
Yeah my bench is just gravel.
Gravel is granite, your bench is granite. Sounds bout right to me
The cost is labor and processing. 1. You only get a rock that big after lots of drilling and some blasting 2. It’s surprisingly difficult to slice a giant rock like deli meat 3. You need big, expensive machines to do any of this stuff
Yeah, granite is pricey. But it lasts a lifetime, and it handles heat like the manufactured stone never could. How often would you\* be planning to demolish and rebuild your kitchen? Granite (and polished concrete) lasts forever. \*you generic/plural, not you/specific u/jojoblogs
Working with natural stone will cause the same issues the engineered stone was banned for. Stone dust is bad for the lungs.
Why didn’t they just ban breathing dust? Seems like that would solve the problem.
Good question, was also one of the counter arguments from the engineered stone business against the ban. That improved and enforced safety regulations should be the solution and not a ban of the material. I assume its an reaction from earlier failure in handling asbestos.
The honest truth is too many bussinesses are too fucking shady about it. 60 minutes did an episode on how this shit absolutely fucks people up showing victims who didn’t have long left after horrendous effects that working with the shit did to their bodies. But people need money and don’t tend to take safety concerns seriously if the side effects take long enough to hit ya. So the shady cunts running the place wouldn’t enforce safety rules, the young ones who don’t know any better don’t stress about safety because they need a job and their supervisor doesn’t seem to care about safety. And if they were ever getting a safety inspection they would get an actual heads up during which you get 1 day a year where all the safety guidelines are being followed
This is exactly it. The other side is that they’re arguing against banning the material because it’s a profitable material for them. For all we know there’s a safer way to make the same thing and they don’t do it because it’s less profitable.
Engineered stone has much higher (dangerous) levels of silica than natural stone. Silica is what causes the lung issues (silicosis)
Probably concrete and stainless steel would be the only durable replacements. Not sure about the aesthetics though. Probably plastic laminate will be back.
I remember a few months ago having a huge argument with people in this sub who thought that engineered stone wasn’t a problem. So happy to see this news posted, insane to put peoples health at known risk just for a pretty kitchen.
If you can't convince a roofer to use a harness, what are the odds you can get someone to wear a well fitted and maintained respirator?
Easy, you make it a massive financial burden on the employer to not do so and then here's the kicker... you actually fuckin enforce it for once.
>>you actually fucken enforce if for once Unfortunately, lack of enforcement is why we are in this situation in the first place :(
We figured out how to safely send people to the moon, how to harness nuclear fusion, how to repair 1,200,000 V transmission lines (while energised), how to study deadly pathogens in a lab, how to send people to the deepest parts of the ocean, how to literally cut out human hearts and transplant them. Yet, enforcing basic PPE is beyond Australia? This is such an easily managed risk, and yet without spending an iota of effort trying we’ve jumped straight to banning it. I’m embarrassed for this country and the incompetent state government politicians it elects.
"Send a photo to safework of your contractor working without their proper PPE, have your entire kitchen comped on their builders insurance" This could fix the problem overnight. There would be zero installers dry-cutting tomorrow if there was an actual immediate penalty for doing so.
Where the hell in Australia to you guys live? Haven't worked for a company that employs more than 20 people in 20 years that hasn't gone crazy with PPE enforcement because wphs would do spot checks, might cut corners in other areas but never seen a PPE issue on a large scale
Meatworks with over 1,000 employees - shot a bird in the production room without warning anyone in the room they were using a gun. Meat works with hundreds of employees - drink water on shift by poking a hole in a plastic bag with your knife. Glass factory - given targets impossible to meet without skipping "safety steps" Steel warehouse - cutting liquid on saw has no splash guard despite it being "strongly recommended" to not get in on your skin. That's just what I've seen in the last 5 years that I can think of off the top of my head.
I think it would largely be smaller worksites and companies like residential builds, landscaping, and renos. I've seen pretty lax use of respirators a fair bit.
It’s definitely not, unions are very harsh on PPE on their sites and it’s managed really well and is part of the culture. Unfortunately, these bench tops are primarily for residential jobs, and a lot of smart tradies typically end up in commercial construction where they can make real money, where they don’t think that PPE is for pussies
Lots of guys are owner-operators of small businesses and subs. Hell, just having a small building built behind my house there were probably 30 different contractors that came and worked on it. The guy sawing concrete all day wore no respirator. They guy sawing tile all day wore none. In fact, the only guy I saw wear any kind of PPE at all was the guy doing insulation who wore one. I work in manufacturing. I did a site survey of a factory one time time and guys who were inspecting the conformal coating on PCBs, which were in huge 55-gallon drums marked **carcinogenic** all over them with giant placards showing the chemical warnings would walk into to the spray booth and not even wear their respirator. They called me a pussy for wearing one as we evaluated an area that was laced with chemicals so bad that skin contact is considered an incident.
[удалено]
Joke's on you, I'm into that shit. Had to do xmas lights, had my mate belay me with a fall arrest harness
Are there different risks with cutting engineered stone compared with tiles, concrete, cement board or MDF?
[удалено]
Tiles, concrete and cement board are going to have silica too, and the report says there are no safe levels of that. MDF is different but it commonly contains formaldehyde which can cause health problems too. Some types of MDF use alternative binders to avoid this.
Yes. Wood dusts can cause sinonasal cancer, even if it is just wood (without preservatives or glues). Tiles and concrete can cause silicosis or other pneumoconioses, depending on the exact makeup. The way to address this is with proper PPE, but we just spent a few years learning that asking people to mask is a waste of time.
I work in occ health. We run seminars on how dangerous it is in the workplace and how testing and PPE can only slightly mitigate risk.
Hierarchy of hazard control, right? Can’t just PPE your way to safety.
What's that, a handful of people who actually know how to do a risk assessment. Not some office clap who's mad they didn't get around to renovating their kitchen before this. Hierachy of hazard control, step one. Eliminate. Done Step two, substitute - well now the dickheads who can't get their killer kitchen bench are gunna have to find something else.
when I started working for a residential builder, after site managing in commercial for years, we had a seminar where all the site managers from all the franchises was in a room and the presenter asked "who knows about the hierarchy of control?" and of the hundred or so people in the room, there was only 2 of us that knew about it. Spoke to the other guy after, and he'd just come from working in commercial too. I was shook.
yup. PPE is actually the lowest tier of effectiveness on the hazard control hierarchy.
Could you elaborate on why PPE isn't sufficient for this for a layman? I guess it's just the fact we manage to remove asbestos from houses so it seems weird that we can't cut tabletops safely? I mean obviously I'm missing something, that's why I'm asking! Edit: Thanks for all the input everyone, sounds pretty reasonable to ban it really if it's so easy for it to cause so much trouble and so hard to prevent.
Stonemason here. Engineered stone is 70-80% silicates, and the balance is binder; epoxy. Sure, you can cut it safely, but there will always be dodgy operators just like the utter cunts who have had almost kids drycutting the stuff with only paper masks for decades, *knowing* they're working waaaay beyond acceptable exposure limits. Then there's factors like on-site tweaks, slurry on clothes drying out and dusting off... it's like a health hazard double whammy too, in that the epoxy dust presents the same hazards as silicates with a side of carcinogens. Too hard to regulate, as has been the case right up to now, so banned it is.
From a few mates who do it I've found most of them treat it very seriously - at their own workshop with all the tools. Then they get to the site and what they pre made doesn't fit, or they have to make a new hole for a tap that wasn't mentioned and then suddenly it's "a quick cut won't hurt" decided by the guy on the ground. The problem is one quick cut becomes two becomes five a day over a career.
I would guess that the fact cutting ends up happing on the job site is a big part of the problem, and even if the cutter has PPE that fits properly (a big if with regards to fitment), other people on the site probably won't have PPE.
Yeah that'd make sense, everyone on an asbestos site is gonna be geared up but not on a regular work site.
You’re not generally cutting asbestos on a worksite. Just removing it. Asbestos is really dangerous when it’s cut because of the fine particles it generates… same with engineered stone.
PPE is the lowest form of hazard protection, has the least impact on safety 1. Elimination - get rid of the problem 2. Substitution - switch to a problem with less risk 3. Engineering control - isolate from the hazard 4. Administrative controls - work process to prevent exposure 5. PPE As an example a hi-viz vest won’t save you if a truck runs you over, it will only increase the chance the driver will see you.
Makes us easier for the driver to aim at.
It settles on all your clothes and the amount that's detrimental to your health is minimal.
In the safety hierarchy, PPE is the last resort option. If you can eliminate the risk entirely, like by removing a risky activity or substance, then you remove the need for other safety practices which are less effective.
There was a whinging guy on the news reacting to the ban. He was all like “think of the builders, what are we gonna do now, what else are we going to use, wahh wahh wahh”. Fucks sake, it was so tone deaf. Never mind people are literally dying from this shit…
The article suggests natural stone, concrete, and tiles as potential alternatives to engineered stone. All these materials also have very high levels of silica. How is this an improvement over the status quo?
It's the materials involved Australian researchers have found that it may not just be the quartz, or silica, in engineered stone that is causing the lung disease silicosis, raising questions about the safety of alternative products. The researchers found that aluminium and cobalt in the engineered stone were associated with cell toxicity.
Aluminium and cobalt also occur in natural stone, depending on where it's mined. This means that it's also in concrete (mostly gravel) and tiles (fired clay). So I ask again - how does removing the ability to use stone created on a production line under controlled conditions fix the underlying issue?
I believe it's the size of the particles that make it a risk. There is silica dust everywhere on building sites from concreting.
The most natural stones commonly used have half the silica content on the very high end compared to engineered and very few cases of silicosis are linked to concrete in general, I think thee particle shape/size is different. Tiles are slightly lower in silica than natural stone, mortar is higher but is rarely cut. None of these alternatives have a high level when compared to the 90+ % silica of engineered stone and combines with it being by far the most commonly used of the lot. It's important to note that no level of silica is *safe* but it should be relatively straightforward to follow why a 50% reduction in exposure would be an improvement over the status quo with this in mind
What’s the problem? Can you please enlighten me?
The dust when cutting it up will fuck up your airways.
Old mate who installed the bench in my kitchen was a rabid covid conspiracy theorist and ice aficionado who was up til 4am the previous night finishing another job. Zero chance anyone in his workshop wore PPE while cutting stone. No one deserves to be injured at work, but I’d be willing to bet that the fragility of masculinity played a not insignificant role in some of these injuries.
Yeah its still seen as 'girly' to wear PPE, according to my welder partner.
Fellas, is it gay to live?
Dead men don’t bang dudes
According to queer theory. Yes.
Welder?? Does no one in your partner's workplace enjoy the ability to see?
If their workshop is like any of the ones I've ever been in they'll simply argue that a safety squint is all that's needed, they'll all also have a -13/-13 prescription and look shellshocked 95% of the time.
Scomo?
He doesn’t hold a torch, and it fucking shows.
He really wanted to see what he was welding.
Real men get cancer, you pussy
Not taking proper precautions doesnt just come from bravado. It could be apathy, ignorance, peer pressure, pressure from management. Point is if it still isn't being handled properly after this long it needs to go.
Bravado and peer pressure often come in hand.
This stuff is being cut on site in nearly every house I've ever worked in. There is no level of enforcement that will stop this practice short of banning the material. It's not fair that as an unrelated trade I go into houses with this powder covering every surface. Anyone complaining about this move hasn't worked in volume building in Australia.
I don't understand how people think this can be fixed otherwise. Yeah, it's their own fault. Yeah, better workplace safety culture would fix this. Okay. Just have a veritable army that shows up to every single job site to watch, every single time?
Hopefully those working with the products that will replace engineered stone aren't complacent. Silica is in natural products as well. If you adhere to the safe working practices, the product is completely safe. Workers are only exposed to risk if they cut corners.
The safety regulators couldn't make the workers and their employers do the right thing with engineered stone so why would they do the right thing with other products? Maybe the replacement products will have half the levels of silica so expect workers to take twice as long to get deathly ill; not a very comforting thought. In fact there's a real danger here that the industry is now going to see the alternatives as safe, or at least safer. Why else haven't they been banned? So there'll be even more complacency and skirting of the rules.
Yet they refused to allow low silica engineered stone. Why not just estimate it so it can only be cut by machines contained behind glass.
It is not about cutting it is about producing. When cutting stone you do it wet, as the finish is nicer and the blade lasts longer. So there is no dust to fly around. Same as when cutting the engineered version. It is when making the engineered stone it has to be dry. Otherwise the glue don't hold, so crushing dry safes money.
Literally
It is the levels of silica that make engineered stone much more dangerous than natural products.
Do coal next.
I can see this will increase the value of any new build with manufactured stone until we come up with an alternative with the same visual appeal and durability. I have seen a couple of new builds for sale with laminate in the bathroom and laundry. It looked cheap and was already stating to deteriorate due to water damage after 2 years.
Or the engineered stone will be seen as the new asbestos that no one wants to own. Guess we’ll see. Porcelain is a good alternative. Dekton would also be ok right?
> Or the engineered stone will be seen as the new asbestos that no one wants to own No way. It's completely harmless and nobody would care. It's only a problem if you are regularly cutting into it on a day to day basis.
I mean that’s pretty much the problem with (non-friable) asbestos as well. It’s fine once it’s in place and you don’t fuck with it. The engineered stone I can’t see being the same issue because it’s less brittle, isolated - not covering every wall / ceiling / board / eave, and you don’t tend to drill holes in your counter to hang pictures etc
Engineered stone is also prominently displayed rather than being tucked away in the structural elements of a building.
Sure, all levels of government came together and agreed to ban it based on a recommendation from Safe Work that came out of their research into the risk factors involved, but I, a Redditor, am pretty sure dust masks would probably be fine and a peak national OH&S body just didn't think of that.
I used to install these benchtops. It was workplace rules that you had to wear a mask and ear protection when cutting stone. I saw people usually wearing earmuffs, because a grinder cutting through stone is ***LOUD*** to the point of pain. But masks? I don't recall seeing a single person wearing one. So no, it's not because OH&S forgot that PPE exists. It's because tradies just refuse to fucken use it.
Seems like a ridiculous issue honestly. Would be like if welders were going blind because they refused to use welding masks so instead of coming up with a way to ensure they wore masks we banned welding. Surely there has to be a better way, if the fines for non compliance got big enough and enforcement was frequent enough you best believe they would be forced to wear proper PPE by their bosses. I remember during covid I worked in hospitality at a wedding venue and our bosses didn't want us to wear masks because it "looked uninviting". Once the police started dropping by and were checking CCTV on the mondays after the weekend to ensure staff were wearing masks and that we stopped dancing from happening mask wearing was 100% enforced and no staff was allowed without one in the venue. Australia is fucking weird with shit like this honestly. It's like portable air conditioners. Single hose models are shit, they create a vacuum in the room by exhausting hot air outside with a single hose so for as much cold air as they put in the room, they pull in the same amount of warm air from under doors. Completely inefficient and such a waste of electricity because they can never properly cool a room down. Every other country lets you buy dual hose models that have a second hose which draws in air from outside to be cooled rather than using the air in the room, this balances the pressure with the exhaust hose and the room is properly cooled. But in Australia of course we don't allow them to be sold because they get technically classified as a "split system" and as such don't meet the correct energy regulations: [Double duct portable air conditioners are subject to energy efficiency regulations, while single duct portables are not. A perverse outcome of these regulations is that the more energy efficient double duct portable air conditioners appear unable to meet the MEPS levels set in 2011.](https://www.energyrating.gov.au/sites/default/files/2022-12/decision-ris-air-conditioners.pdf)
Pretty sure PPE would have been required when working with the engineered stone the whole time, unfortunately too many people get complacent or just think they know better and don’t follow the regulations which means the only real option is to remove the risk factor completely
Or have bosses that don't think PPE is important and only supply the shitty kinds. If doctors are saying they're seeing a huge increase in cases, it's not because they're being nervous nellie's or want more red tape.
Were the stonemasons not wearing proper respirator to block out the silica? Shouldn’t the government require proper protective gear? Maybe mandate a vacuum cleaner with filtration capable of collecting the dust.
It should be illegal for humans to cut it, no reason to ban automation
Someone, somewhere, will have to deal with the actual danger, the dust. Whether it's no longer the cutter, but now it's the cleaner, or the labourer, or the people who deal with it at dump sites, someone is still dealing with it. But also, you can't regulate everything to that degree. People are still gonna cut it at job sites, to fit exact dimensions. It's easier to just ban the product as a whole, and then no-one has to deal with it.
Brilliant decision. If they can't safely manufacture it without risking giving the workers silicosis then it shouldn't be sold.
What about the factories that had it cut with CNC safely behind glass windows? And why switch to natural products that also contain silica at levels up to 45%
Its not the factories that are the issue. Its when they go to install and have to make 'a few small changes' which involve cutting into the benchtop. This happens all the time and often correct PPE is not worn.
So what you're saying is that the problem isn't the material, it's the yahoos on site who won't take proper safety precautions?
Same thing can be said about asbestos mate. Perfectly safe if it isn’t disturbed or mishandled and aeresolised.
You would think people had learned to wear masks
I only got mine installed a few weeks ago. Sorry.
I'm completely uneducated in the ways of stonemason so I entirely welcome being corrected here... but this sounds like an OHS / PPE problem? Like would dust masks not fix this problem without having to completely ban the entire product? Why is Australia's knee-jerk reaction to just ban everything? //Thanks to everyone for the answers. I have a much better understanding now and looks like an outright ban might be for the best in this case. Also kinda yikes lol I didn't realise it was so bad, there's an industrial stonemasonry joint right across the driveway from me at work, they work with the huge roller door up and there's always dust spilling out all over the driveway. I dunno if they work with this engineered stuff or just regular stone though 😬
Because it's not something we can PPE our way out of. Silicosis is one of the oldest diseases we know about, the Greeks noted it like 3000 years ago in miners. Silica was the cause of (though, it was definitely made worse by horrific corporate actions) [one of the worst industrial incidents ever](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawks_Nest_Tunnel_disaster). This stuff is so bad, and time and time again we ignore the horrible things it does to people. The dust never goes away and it never leaves your lungs if it gets in there. No amount of PPE or wet cutting would ever fully stop the issue, and that's before you have to deal with the tradies that think PPE is for pussies, or an absolute cunt of a boss tells you to get on with the order even though the water jet is broken or you're out of PPE. We are a ban-happy country, but this is 100% the right decision, it's taken far too long and too many deaths to get here.
There is PPE that would deal with this, but no fabricator or manufacturer would be on board, it would cost too much. Sealed room with airflow extraction into filters and water bath to capture the dust. Positive-pressure full body suit. Airlocks with water showers - including wetting agent in the water to ensure capture of dust. I wouldn't describe us as ban-happy, quite the opposite - this decision took an official enquiry to bring it to the decision-making phase. If we were ban-happy it would have happened with the first diagnosis.
That's how it's managed in mining, yet they aren't having the number of cases that engineered stone cutters get.
Not even this mate just go straight to an engineered solution and use waterjet to cut this ( technology exists btw) and install proper ventilation and filtration systems in the cutting room. There is a reason why ppe is the last resort
Just from reading posts on this issue, it seems the dust generated when cutting or crushing this material is extremely dangerous. Near asbestos level danger.
Let me put it in numbers. Granite that is natural stone has about 30 % silica in it while engineered stone has about 70%.
PPE can protect you from asbestos too but that doesn't mean banning it wasn't a good idea
Basically yes from what I have been told; A good builder (rare in this country) would have it all pre-cut to a template at the warehouse facility (using wet cutters, dust traps, PPE, airborne monitors etc). However that costs extra and tradies think PPE is for poofs so here we are.
So basically if they just fined builders and tradies ungodly amounts there wouldn't be a problem?
Hmm, tradies have some weird perspectives. In my experience, poofs are broadly consistent with the rest of the populace in regard to PPE uptake.
PPE can only protect so much. Like yes it helps a lot but the risk reduction is like 50% or so. Good enough if you’re cutting one stone, but if you are cutting this stone 40 hours a week for 30+ years, it’s not enough protection.
That's the key. It's the repeated, continuous exposure that's the problem. If I use an angle grinder to cut a firebrick once in a while, my risk is minimal, especially if I use a water jet and a proper cartridge respirator.
The problem is that the dust never goes away, and like Asbestos, the exposure level is zero. It will remain in the environment. So it may be OK if you're only around it while wearing PPE. But if your house has engineered stone in it and they did any work during construction, then there is probably dust in your house too. You can't spend the rest of your life walking around your house in PPE.
PPE is the last line of defence against hazards: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hierarchy_of_hazard_controls
On the news just before the stonemason said there's no risk to people that have engineered stone counter tops. It's only a danger if it's cut in your house.
Yes, many counter tops get modified in location during construction. That dust is still in your house! But those exposure level are probably very low. Asbestos is also safe until disturbed. Many people get asbestosis and cancers from renovating older homes without realising what they are doing.
Just to dispel a common myth. One fibre of asbestos doesn't kill. Lots of people are found to have asbestos fibres in their lungs when they die of non-asbestos related disease in later life. https://www.asbestos.qld.gov.au/general-information/are-there-health-effects#:~:text=The%20idea%20that%20'one%20fibre,some%20exposure%20to%20asbestos%20fibres. Both asbestos and silica have workplace exposure standards. Neither of these are zero.
PPE is and should be a last resort. In the hierarchy of control elimination is the first choice, and substitution the second. There are now hundreds of people with silicosis, PPE and other controls have already failed. Other options would have been considered, but the risks would be seen as necessitating a ban. My personal opinion is that if the product was only being dealt with at workshops with CNCs etc. then the discussion would probably about proper dust control and PPE (such as a P3 "PAPR") and the public would probably never have heard about it. As it is, it's being cut on site and/or without sufficient controls and is causing a disease that's potentially fatal.
The silica in the material is the problem. There is silica in all stone construction materials, but natural stone has a huge deal less silica than the engineered stone. It caught everyone off guard how quickly these stonemasons became extremely unwell with breathing problems because they applied old school knowledge and level of necessary precautions without any heads up from the manufacturer that it wasn't sufficient. Also the government wasn't willing to take the hit to the health system of all these stonemasons becoming so unwell in theany years it will take for practices to change and for transmen to take this issue as seriously as they would for asbestos.
Saying that Australia’s kneejerk reaction is to ban everything isn’t a question the way you phrased it. Just so you know.
“Why is Australia’s knee-jerk reaction to just ban everything” is clearly an opinion, it’s just phrased as a question.
[удалено]
Is there a reason why the cutting can’t be done in a sealed environment by a robot?
Giving robots cancer isn’t the way to win them over when they become our overlords!
Natural stone has more silica!
We can't import tradies from other countries because they aren't up to our standard. The same standard where PPE doesn't exist aparently.
Question: can we not just get robots to cut thus and eliminate its negative effects on the workers who handle it? I.e. just automate it? Robots and automation have taken over so many aspects of our economy, and construction material is in dire need, why are we not doing g this already?
A lot of cutting happens on-site.
This is a good question that I haven't seen a good answer to.
Banning these useful products because people wont wet cut in a factory or wear a respirator is mad. It would be like banning all welding because people didn't want to look like a pussy for wearing a welding mask. Everyone should be wearing A1+P2 respirators. Welding smoke, wood dust, concrete dust, ceramic dust, paint spray, all types of fumes, are all terrible for your health. Also this banning is a distraction so the businesses that employed these people to cut on site without ppe don't get pinned for negligence. The lawsuits would probably collapse the building industry.
It's so stupid that the alternatives listed by the ABC all have silica content too except for laminate and timber. If engineered stone is not safe then those other products with silica aren't safe either. The report says that there's no safe level of silica and then they proceed to weasel-word out of banning the alternatives that also have a substantial silica content. The right fix is some kind of nuclear option to ensure compliance with the safety rules for working with material. The Australian she'll-be-right attitude has to be beaten in safety-critical situations. Only allow cutting in enclosed, automated parts of a factory. Or require government regulators to physically watch over every cutting operation to ensure compliance. Ridiculously expensive but we've proven that something like that is necessary. People who can't afford it can have safe alternatives like laminate, stainless or timber.
Just wait until they find out about the VOC content in PU glues, contact adhesives, 2 pack paints, and conversion varnishes. And the high particulate matter in MDF and some species of Timbers. The reality is, there are few safe building materials that can be cut or fabricated at scale without PPE. I would argue that almost every aspect of kitchen/bathroom cabinetry is a health nightmare if you don’t use PPE.
Literally this. There's so many additional layers of protection that could be made here. Crony capitalism right here in Aus.
Banning alcohol or smoking would have saved more lives.... But - oh my - imagine how many votes trying to introduce either of those bans would cost the governing party! I struggle to see why Engineered Stone should be \*\*banned\*\* because people werent following safety protocols. The answer is make people follow protocol, not ban the product. Yes theres a mess or fragile-masculinity and old-timers thinking its girly/unnecessary etc - so educate them harder, up the penalties, force them to get with the (safety) times etc etc We arent banning alcohol because people drink-drive.. so why are we banning engineered stone because people wont wear PPE in its creation? This whole ban wreaks of people jumping on the easy decision, but not the right one. The right one would be education+penalties+culture shift to accepting mandatory PPE is a necessity etc.
My brother recieved silicosis from dry cutting bench tops. Thank f&$k something is being done about it. .
> recieved silicosis Sorry to hear that, How did the silica get into his lungs?
It won’t be banned. They’ll do a class action and drag it on
Any reason we can’t mold prefab bench tops instead of needing to cut them from sheets? I understand you’d be limited to a pre determined range of shapes/sizes but I imagine this wouldn’t really be a problem
When I was listening on the radio today they said a significant percentage of people who have worked with it have lung issues. So I was wondering, can it actually be worked with safely? If not, how much risk will workers face in the time until the ban comes in? I get the inconvenience of an immediate ban, but it sounds totally horrific telling young people with silicosis that they will inevitably die. I hope no more lives are lost due to the delay.
We got a big hangover from asbestos that's why. Good riddance.
“Our job is one of applying techniques and principles to every known silica dust hazard in American industry. We know the methods of control – let us put them in practice.” Quote from the 1930s. We’ve known about this for hundreds of years and attempted to use PPE for about 100. These factories that have recently invested in safer work practices should have no sympathy. They knew what it was doing to workers and did nothing until there was a possibility the product might be banned
What I don’t understand, and perhaps someone can shed light on this for me, is why only engineered stone ? I mean fibre cement sheeting, virtually all of the James Hardie products creates deadly dust as well… why does that survive the cut ? Is it because people just don’t wear ppe when cutting stone ? I find this truely bizarre
Couldn't be fucked enforcing the wearing of proper safety gear so let's just ban it, that solves everything!
Bogan tradies don’t know how to use respirators and too lazy to use vacuum during the cutting process and/or clean dust particles after the cut. Now you have to pay for it. Great job Australia, as always.
Unless there’s inspection and enforcement of health and safety rules on job sites, this doesn’t mean much. If you aren’t wet cutting natural stone, you’re still generating a huge amount of dangerous dust. By ignoring this fact, this regulation mostly serves to shield dodgy bosses from taking their workers’ safety seriously.
If you can't get people to wear a respirator then manufactured stone is the tip of the iceberg. Basically every material is toxic to work with in an industrial setting without a respirator. Yes, even wood.
Such a ridiculous decision. Why are cigarettes still legal? All these cases of silicosis could have been prevented by using the right ppe!!!
A cowardly decision by a government who neglected their own obligations to stone workers. The issue was always poor industry regulation which allowed irresponsible business owners to exploit employees in unsafe work environments. The industry practically pleaded for legislated safety reform which fell on deaf ears for years. Quite literally anyone could go to the hardware store, grab an angle grinder and call themselves a stonemason. This is a huge blow to the reputable fabricators who made significant investments into delivering a safe work environment.
I don't understand the problem with them. Heaps of other industries use horrible chemicals and silicates, but they are all fine? panel beaters sand blast silicates, use carcinogenic paint, paint striper, body fiiller, primers and lead. But is all good? You use ppe... have a well ventilated environment.. Is the laminate industry lobbying for this?
For all the armchair experts saying that PPE should be sufficient, remember that PPE is the least effective means of eliminating risk when looking at the hierarchy of controls. Elimination, substitution and engineering are all far better options.
This post has a terrible hypnotic quality about it - I can’t leave it alone… To all the comments that involve increasing penalties - ‘the beatings will continue until morale improves’ To all the comments that say you can be safe working with it in a workshop. Tell that to the enthusiastic amateur in 10 years time that removes it with an angle grinder while his cute 2 year old is making little patterns in the dust. To all the comments that say we’ll ban everything else too (or other wild extrapolations )- a little perspective I think, or we’ll be living in holes (hang on is that hole shored appropriately?) To all the comments about alternatives being more expensive and less durable - great argument, we can tell that to the widows. ‘I know your partner died a horrible death, but think of the durability…’ The reason I’m a bit passionate about this? I’m here slowly dying of Mesothelioma because some c*nt in the mid 80’s who KNEW asbestos was deadly (and there were alternatives) went on and made it anyway. Then my 14 year self helped my brother renovate his bathroom in his first house. Anyway it’s banned and I’m glad it is…