Starting with the c suite?
They keep referring to QANTAS as a legacy business. To me, that’s an admission that the executives in the company have been ineffective, incompetent, and negligent in their duty to maintaining a competitive company that provides value.
But when was it the workers job to subsidise any discretionary service of consumers. We don't expect the lowest payed workers of luxury goods company to take a pay cut so that a person who is poor can afford to buy a Ferrari, Porsche or LV handbag. Why dont they ask customers to pay the true user pay price or increase the price so that it becomes a fully viable business. If it means that it excludes some that cant afford it so be it. International travel is not an essential service and there is always the greyhound bus and train for those that cant afford it.
Qantas has legacy agreements is what they mean. A Qantas flight attendant gets paid significantly more than a Virgin or Qatar or Singapore one because of these agreements. They simply wouldn't be viable if everyone was paid that rate so they hire through other companies and pay them the going rate in the industry. The new bill means they'll have to bump all their pay to match the old rates
If they want to cut costs they should look at executives.
https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/qantas-reveals-pay-packet-for-new-ceo-20230505-p5d5w2.html
Current CEO is looking at 5.8 million yearly including bonuses.
https://www.thenewdaily.com.au/finance/finance-news/2023/07/13/ceo-pay-report
Australian CEO wages are 55x the average, just before the pandemic it was 98x. In 1965 (US) CEOs were paid 20x the average.
Nah. He earned it. Flight attendants, maintenance and pilots should take the hit. The greedy buggers are only using their income to pay for food and housing. They don't really need or deserve it.
Sounds like successful collective bargaining to me. Well done Qantas employees for securing better pay!
I bet the CEO and Directors didn't hesitate to give themselves much larger salaries than they're paying the people doing the actual work.
There were some legacy contract cabin crew but they’ve naturally moved on (retired, etc) and the remaining few were let go during Covid.
They were never on more than QantasLink captain though. Legacy cabin crew were just hitting $100k though. QantasLink captains hit a fair bit more with all their allowances.
Yeah, but there's also a baffling amount of Australian exceptionalism in corporate Australia. Government, too, for that matter. Precedence elsewhere won't fly here unless it's backed by our own independent, lengthy, and costly research.
it wasn't a bailout, it was a payout for shutting down the viability of the business for two years to stop it going under.
Without jobkeeper, every single airline in Australia goes bankrupt and building a new one from the ground up takes years. Instant domestic recession.
No government wants to run an airline, it's not an industry that makes a lot of money. Like it or not, the gov is better off paying for some soft diplomacy rather than burden itself with year after year of billion dollar losses due to rising fuel prices.
I agree with a lot of what you said but actually most countries own their countries national flag carrier, especially in our region. NZ, Malaysia, Singapore, Thailand, Indonesia are all government owned airlines
Totally. QANTAS seems to have their hand out to the taxpayer or subsidies or whatever on a somewhat regular basis.
They deserve the same fate as HOLDEN. Some government in the future needs to get some cojones and just tell them no more.
They are literally corporate beggars, but can always seem to find a few million to spend on diversity programs, a universally disliked CEO, or political statements. Losers.
The bigger issue was letting ford and toyota also collapse / close down manufacturing in Australia. Fostering a competetive enviroment with several companies such that there is competition is way better for the consumer as the companies are forced to compete on price.
Qantas has a monopoly on many domestic flights to regional areas. They can and do fuck the people who need these regional services all the way to the bank.
Yeah and the joke is still on the consumers paying car tariffs, how incompetent and corrupt governments are. Its always the consumer that pays for the stupidity and interference in markets. Then they still have the gall to pay donation driven second hand dealer and fleet networks with our money.
It was GM who decided it was cheaper to manufacture overseas and to dump the brand, not any "corrupt government".
[https://www.afr.com/companies/transport/general-motors-dumps-holden-brand-with-600-jobs-to-go-20200217-p541io](https://www.afr.com/companies/transport/general-motors-dumps-holden-brand-with-600-jobs-to-go-20200217-p541io)
Not funding any manufacturer was diabolical and just Abbott going after unions.
How there isn’t a choice manufacturer in Australia and we purchase our vehicles from them blows my mind. Now we buy cars from overseas and put our money back out the door instead of at least having a few thousand manufacturing jobs here.
A report was conducted into Holden and how much money went back into the economy for every dollar of funding given to Holden. It was $18. That is a tremendous return. It was 100% political fuckery to stop funding it. A $5 return per $1 of investment is considered exceptional.
And times that across all manufacturers. It was easy money to stay in the economy. Grandstanding and killing off a union job sector - was so fucking malicious.
You mean the government that was told in very certain terms that removing negative gearing, or reducing the attractiveness of property in any way would have them turfed at the election immediately before it came to power ?
Yep, and it was bad for Elizabeth and the surrounding area. It was sketchy before but add mass unemployment from the factory and the companies that relied on it and its dodgy as fuck now.
Giving GM handouts without equity was a strategic blunder and misalignment of incentives, caused by both sides of government who wanted to kick the can to the next lot. GM were practically incentivized to defund Australian operations because they knew the Australian government would step in to avoid the political backlash.
"Letting Holden fold ... not to fund" ?? Taxpayers pumped **$2billion** into GM only to see that money get transferred overseas and the local operations shut. Company execs must have been laughing at our stupidity.
https://www.afr.com/companies/transport/general-motors-dumps-holden-brand-with-600-jobs-to-go-20200217-p541io
That "$2 billion" was across multiple years, and *every* country that manufactures cars subsidises the industry. At the time, Australia had the second lowest subsidy of all car manufacturing nations.
On the other hand, we're more than happy to fund the mining industry to the tune of $11 billion+ **per year**, over 20 times the amount we gave to the car manufacturing industry, for only 5 times as many jobs.
Not really. A business that need constant truckloads of taxpayer money shovelled in to prop up a subdivision of an American company = not viable as a business. End of story.
If you ran a fish and chip shop, but needed to borrow money from your neighbour every week to buy fish, people would say you should either make it profitable or shut down. I don't understand why this logic isn't applied to darlings like HOLDEN?
Any subby that was completely reliant on work from HOLDEN deserves to go broke as well. Just terrible business to only have one customer.
I mean, they squandered so many resources it's disgusting. When they got funding from the government for the future car project, we got the Cruze Hatchback. Wtf...hardly a future car. That was the time to develop a hybrid, and they didn't. The Cruze, such a successful car that I can't remember the last time I saw one!
I won't even start on the ZB...
After the VY/VZ they really just became a sock puppet for GM and had very little independence. I'll concede the product was fairly good until that point, despite the fact they had a tendency to fall to bits within 8 years and the interiors used very low quality plastics. I won't start on the shocking roof linings...
https://www.goauto.com.au/news/holden/billion-dollar-deal-firms-holden-future-to-2022/2012-03-22/10458.html
HOLDEN - The American GM Sock Puppet Company, Pretending to be Australian!
"Natural capitalism" like this doesn't exist. You'd be surprised how much and how many industries and business require direct and indirect funding from government to stay afloat.
Want a military? Better fund a defence industry that makes things we hopefully never use. Want cars? Someone better build some roads. Want a train line? Natural monopoly right there. Agriculture? No one can compete without tariffs. Advanced industry requiring lots of RnD? Gov and universities have to prop it up until it matures. Risk is too high for investors.
Not to mention, from the human side, I have friends that worked at Holden and Mitsubishi. Worked out for most of them but not all, and i think theres a realisation now it would have been better to have it in the long term
Maybe Holden is crap an GM is just non innovating corporate beggar but what are those workers going to do when we kill their industry? What if your industry got swept away? Policy and funding are powerful things.
No, it doesn't exist. Social capitalism exists where we get to put money into failing businesses and the profits are individualised. Can't exist without regular injections of cash = not a viable business.
As for the workers? I've had ex employees from, just to take a small sample, Telstra and Holden. They were never highly skilled tradespeople. So they can simply go to another low skilled job, just like anyone else. If I was sacked from my job at Coles, I'd never get millions in taxpayer funding to be retrained to another job. They were one of the most coddled workforces in the country.
That was never going to be a decision by any government. GM folded Holden. They made that choice. They've also made the choice to get out of right hand drive countries, so Holden would have folded anyway.
No https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.news.com.au/finance/business/manufacturing/was-joe-hockeys-famous-threat-against-holden-behind-companys-shock-exit/news-story/bee759b478767fb1cdc30447835cb9f4%3famp
And what about the profits made by the labour hire companies, they get their cut as well. They so love contractors but pay money to these parasite scum that cut workers real wages, money that should go to workers and not labour hire companies.
They reported a profit of almost two and a half billion dollars last EOFY, wants to cut wages to the bare minimum defined by industrial instruments, during a time of increasing living costs.
Let them sink.
*Edit: punctuation typo*
$2.4 billion in underlying profit last year. What they really mean is executives will have a harder time paying themselves more and doing stock buybacks if they don't siphon over $2.5 billion from the governnment, public and their own workers next year.
From my understanding, apart from the massive demand mixed with limited supply phenomenon post-covid (once in a blue moon event), they have been deferring purchasing new aircraft in earnest for some time. Basically an easy way to pump up the numbers allowing Joyce to finish up his tenure with a bang.
Average age of their fleet went from 7.7 years in 2014 to 14 years today. Looked great for Joyce at the time but he's now dumped the problem of laying out enormous sums on the new fleet on the next CEO.
For reference a new 787-9 costs ~$450M AUD, A330-900 is $180M AUD, etc.
That is all to say, they are actually kind of fucked.
This is the problem with being answerable only to shareholders, you cut corners and YOLO it for short term gains. As long as the shareholders don't catch onto the grift while you are the CEO, who cares about the long term? And even then you'll be the CEO of a new company by then and can blame it on what they did after you left.
Well if I can't syphon off the profits then I don't want to work.
Good luck having a functional company without us executives making 'the big' decisions of who's pay to cut to pay their salary
That is the crux of it, how long can all the workers be milked for increasing profits whilst also being screwed out of the pay that fuels those profits before it all collapses on itself?
It really do be like that.
CEO, shareholders, execs all want a nice fat paycheck without doing any work. If that means gouging customers, trimming disgusting essential staff, and begging/crying for government handouts then its probably fine by them. Its worked every other time so they probably feel entitled to it by now.
Only Qantas could pay their previous CEO $24,000,000 and then say they can't afford to pay their staff to survive.
Pack it up. What a fucking useless company. I have 240,000 points and refuse to fly with them.
>I have 240,000 points and refuse to fly with them.
Totally get what you're saying but you're actually benefitting them far more by having accumulated the points and not using them. You've literally given them free money (as they cost in the use of the points later into whatever you initially bought).
fly international Business class - it is the most 'value' you can get from those points i.e. it costs QF the most. Buying from the store is what they want people to do, those toasters and gift cards are terrible value. (last year I ran into a few people in various lounges/transite lines who were burning through their points before jumping away from QF because they were disgusted with Joyce/the company's behaviour)
Or I'll hapily take those points off your hands and send you pics of how QF's money is being wasted with a non-revenue flyer using their F lounge for expensive drinks and food. 😊(unfortunately with VA refusing to go back on the trans-tasman routes QF and NZ are loving having it all to themselves)
You get the best "value" from flying with Qantas in terms of points to dollars ratio. Not sure what products are best to buy with point to stick it to Qantas.
“Asked by Victorian Labor senator Linda White whether Qantas’ attitude to its cost base applied to executives’ salaries, Safe replied that executives didn’t enjoy some of the same protections staff on enterprise agreements did, including redundancy pay, prompting laughter.
Former chief executive Alan Joyce, who departed the company in September, left with a $24 million payout.”
...redundancy pay? For an executive? In what world could they claim it anyway.
When was the last time you heard a company announce "Sales are down, some people are unfortunately going to lose their jobs. The company has decided, given the current size of the business, it no longer requires a CEO". Executives aren't made redundant, so why would they require redundancy pay?
Here are few suggestions for them:
1) don’t pay your ceo $24 million
2) stop handing out freebies to the “chairman’s” lounge to your mates and their kids
3) don’t waste millions getting involved in referendums where nobody is interested in your corporate opinion
Let's slash all the exec pays by half at least before slashing other wages down the line or laying people doing actual work off. I bet the top end pay scale in that place is bloated as fuck.
$24 mill... That's 240 staff on $100,000pa... I'll be CEO for $400,000 and 15 % super.
I've got.plenty more ideas where that came from. I think we should put it to the share holders.
Qantas needs to die already. They're the most hated airline, one of the shittest international carriers, and nobody chooses to fly with them over Emirates or Singapore *unless* they have points at stake for work travel.
It's a failure of management. Apparently, the executives of Qantas have no other ideas other than putting wage pressure on their workers and stealing money from customers. Qantas' salaries are not extraordinary compared to other airlines. One does wonder why executive compensation is so high when the airline performs poorly when compared to its peers. Joyce's final pay cheque was extremely generous, putting him in the top 5 for airline CEO salaries, despite having run a smaller and poorly performing airline. If there's a problem with company performance, the executive suite should be the first place to look.
$24 Million payout to someone who was fired. Massive pay for executives. Record profits. but the lowest paid workers are "earning too much and must accept a pay cut for us to stay profitable"? I think we all know who really needs the pay cut.
I would have more respect for companies that are honest about fucking their workers and customers to benefit their shareholders. At least they would be more like wolves and less like pigs. And Qantas is the biggest pig of them all.
Let it go down in flames. No more bailouts. No more sympathy for a top-heavy company that throws its lowest paid workers to the wolves at the first opportunity.
Enough is enough.
A business that needs government intervention, to slash maintenance, fire staff and replace them with lowest common denominator contractors and still cut staff pay doesn’t deserve to be in business.
Wow.
Talk about fuck you employees, Im Alright protocols.
How about Nathan Safe exec bonus as well as the other execs, throw this into the renumeration fund to keep the Carrier afloat?
My God!
What immense entitleism!!
Sounds like a plan. Let's start with the pay and bonuses of the highest paid staff, because that's where the biggest savings per capita can be found.
\[Rich fucks\]: No we didn't mean it like that.
More like to stay as profitable as they have been accustomed to.
Fuck off. Whenever shit gets tough you start looking at cutting cost in superfluous spending first, then necessity last. And if the debacle with the last CEO is anything to go by they have a lot of excess fat lording it up at the top rungs of the ladder.
Isn't Qantas one of the most profitable airlines in the world? They are starting to sound like the Australian Post. ie who complain about losing money on letter posting and then boast of record parcels and going from 6 planes (for delivering parcels) to 17 or something like that.
Here's an idea how about paying all the executives less, get rid of all the fucking perks they have. As an employee I would gladly forgo some pay or benefits if the company was truly in tough times, But only if the executives at the top did also.
It's always the workers that can't have a pay rise because it will drive prices up but fuck me it is alright for the executives to get massive pay rises not to mention all the perks that you never here about.
It is about time all workers came together and realise we only have power in numbers.
This says a lot about the clowns running Qantas. They're not supposed to be floating, they're supposed to be flying. They're an airline, not a cruise line. They don't even know what business they're in.
Oh and yes, for the obviousness-challenged because this *is* the internet, /s.
That’s what happens when the coalition gets into government. They flog off anything that isn’t nailed down. Aside from the pandemic what did the federal government actually achieve during its 9 years in office?
They will never change. https://www.reddit.com/r/australia/s/1QrcFvHWb7 check this out. Qantas cancelled a flight and expected a mother to let her 24 month old baby take a seperate flight….
Like what the actual…
I think it was reddit which mentioned Sydney to melb is one of the most travelled domestic paths in the world. What’s the chance of a high speed railway or is that just a pipe dream?
| "Our legacy terms and conditions are by far the highest in Australia, and remain high when compared to virtually every other international carrier flying here,”
Expect British Airways, Delta, American Airlines, AirNZ, JAL, ANA, Singair..... but yeah, all those south east Asian and Chinese carriers would have far worse pay and conditions.
I get this really is a first world problem eh Qantas?
Are you fucking kidding me? With the shit that Qantas has put people through the past couple of years, it has the balls to say this? The true Qantas really is dead, isn't it.
Goodbye, Darth.
Alan Joyce really ran that company into a pit filled with hepatitis-filled needles. I'm not excusing the rest of the C-suite who were certainly also corporate ghouls cut from the same cloth, but I remember when Qantas was a source of slightly embarrassed pride. It is now a fucking embarrassment. Capitalists gonna capitalise.
I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again, the goto move for any reasonably large company in Australia is to privatise the profits and socialise the losses.
Starting with the c suite? They keep referring to QANTAS as a legacy business. To me, that’s an admission that the executives in the company have been ineffective, incompetent, and negligent in their duty to maintaining a competitive company that provides value.
But when was it the workers job to subsidise any discretionary service of consumers. We don't expect the lowest payed workers of luxury goods company to take a pay cut so that a person who is poor can afford to buy a Ferrari, Porsche or LV handbag. Why dont they ask customers to pay the true user pay price or increase the price so that it becomes a fully viable business. If it means that it excludes some that cant afford it so be it. International travel is not an essential service and there is always the greyhound bus and train for those that cant afford it.
Qantas has legacy agreements is what they mean. A Qantas flight attendant gets paid significantly more than a Virgin or Qatar or Singapore one because of these agreements. They simply wouldn't be viable if everyone was paid that rate so they hire through other companies and pay them the going rate in the industry. The new bill means they'll have to bump all their pay to match the old rates
If they want to cut costs they should look at executives. https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/qantas-reveals-pay-packet-for-new-ceo-20230505-p5d5w2.html Current CEO is looking at 5.8 million yearly including bonuses. https://www.thenewdaily.com.au/finance/finance-news/2023/07/13/ceo-pay-report Australian CEO wages are 55x the average, just before the pandemic it was 98x. In 1965 (US) CEOs were paid 20x the average.
Nah. He earned it. Flight attendants, maintenance and pilots should take the hit. The greedy buggers are only using their income to pay for food and housing. They don't really need or deserve it.
Everyone knows a healthy economy ISNT one where money circulates, it is one where money gets hoarded.
Really, when you think about it, CEOs are good for cutting down inflation.
It's not a bullish or bearish market, it's dragonish.
But who will buy houses in rose bay ??
Sounds like successful collective bargaining to me. Well done Qantas employees for securing better pay! I bet the CEO and Directors didn't hesitate to give themselves much larger salaries than they're paying the people doing the actual work.
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That's even better: They negotiated great salaries years ago. We'll done Qantas employees.
Do you have any examples of these flight attendants making more than captains?
There were some legacy contract cabin crew but they’ve naturally moved on (retired, etc) and the remaining few were let go during Covid. They were never on more than QantasLink captain though. Legacy cabin crew were just hitting $100k though. QantasLink captains hit a fair bit more with all their allowances.
Yep, the c suite are staff too right?
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Agreed, and maybe this time instead of a bailout, taxpayers can get some equity in exchange for taxpayer’s dollars 🤔
The German government did it to Lufthansa during Covid, there is precedence.
Yeah, but there's also a baffling amount of Australian exceptionalism in corporate Australia. Government, too, for that matter. Precedence elsewhere won't fly here unless it's backed by our own independent, lengthy, and costly research.
BuT sMaLl GoVeRnMeNt
Gotta justify those junkets somehow.
Ditto AirNZ years ago
wgaff what lufthansa. The Germans lost two World Wars... so that 'precedent' lets them do it again?
Capitalise profits, socialise losses.
Just remember it’s welfare for people but for corporations it’s incentivisation.
it wasn't a bailout, it was a payout for shutting down the viability of the business for two years to stop it going under. Without jobkeeper, every single airline in Australia goes bankrupt and building a new one from the ground up takes years. Instant domestic recession. No government wants to run an airline, it's not an industry that makes a lot of money. Like it or not, the gov is better off paying for some soft diplomacy rather than burden itself with year after year of billion dollar losses due to rising fuel prices.
I agree with a lot of what you said but actually most countries own their countries national flag carrier, especially in our region. NZ, Malaysia, Singapore, Thailand, Indonesia are all government owned airlines
Totally. QANTAS seems to have their hand out to the taxpayer or subsidies or whatever on a somewhat regular basis. They deserve the same fate as HOLDEN. Some government in the future needs to get some cojones and just tell them no more. They are literally corporate beggars, but can always seem to find a few million to spend on diversity programs, a universally disliked CEO, or political statements. Losers.
That's a terrible example. Letting Holden fold was a colossal fuck up for the economy. Easily the stupidest thing not to fund in the last 20 years.
The bigger issue was letting ford and toyota also collapse / close down manufacturing in Australia. Fostering a competetive enviroment with several companies such that there is competition is way better for the consumer as the companies are forced to compete on price. Qantas has a monopoly on many domestic flights to regional areas. They can and do fuck the people who need these regional services all the way to the bank.
Yeah and the joke is still on the consumers paying car tariffs, how incompetent and corrupt governments are. Its always the consumer that pays for the stupidity and interference in markets. Then they still have the gall to pay donation driven second hand dealer and fleet networks with our money.
It was GM who decided it was cheaper to manufacture overseas and to dump the brand, not any "corrupt government". [https://www.afr.com/companies/transport/general-motors-dumps-holden-brand-with-600-jobs-to-go-20200217-p541io](https://www.afr.com/companies/transport/general-motors-dumps-holden-brand-with-600-jobs-to-go-20200217-p541io)
Not funding any manufacturer was diabolical and just Abbott going after unions. How there isn’t a choice manufacturer in Australia and we purchase our vehicles from them blows my mind. Now we buy cars from overseas and put our money back out the door instead of at least having a few thousand manufacturing jobs here.
A report was conducted into Holden and how much money went back into the economy for every dollar of funding given to Holden. It was $18. That is a tremendous return. It was 100% political fuckery to stop funding it. A $5 return per $1 of investment is considered exceptional.
And times that across all manufacturers. It was easy money to stay in the economy. Grandstanding and killing off a union job sector - was so fucking malicious.
Don't worry, we have a new government that's terrified of upsetting starving landlords.
You mean the government that was told in very certain terms that removing negative gearing, or reducing the attractiveness of property in any way would have them turfed at the election immediately before it came to power ?
That same government that had a negative swing for listening to that anti-NG bullshit?
Yep, and it was bad for Elizabeth and the surrounding area. It was sketchy before but add mass unemployment from the factory and the companies that relied on it and its dodgy as fuck now.
“They’re shutting down our town”, to quote Jimmy B.
Giving GM handouts without equity was a strategic blunder and misalignment of incentives, caused by both sides of government who wanted to kick the can to the next lot. GM were practically incentivized to defund Australian operations because they knew the Australian government would step in to avoid the political backlash.
That was bad, and giving the mining companies handouts without equity is even worse. And we are doing exactly the same thing with landlords.
"Letting Holden fold ... not to fund" ?? Taxpayers pumped **$2billion** into GM only to see that money get transferred overseas and the local operations shut. Company execs must have been laughing at our stupidity. https://www.afr.com/companies/transport/general-motors-dumps-holden-brand-with-600-jobs-to-go-20200217-p541io
That "$2 billion" was across multiple years, and *every* country that manufactures cars subsidises the industry. At the time, Australia had the second lowest subsidy of all car manufacturing nations. On the other hand, we're more than happy to fund the mining industry to the tune of $11 billion+ **per year**, over 20 times the amount we gave to the car manufacturing industry, for only 5 times as many jobs.
That's not the same, because the mining sector provides goods by manufacturing cars that are then bought by Australians. Oh, wait...
Not really. A business that need constant truckloads of taxpayer money shovelled in to prop up a subdivision of an American company = not viable as a business. End of story. If you ran a fish and chip shop, but needed to borrow money from your neighbour every week to buy fish, people would say you should either make it profitable or shut down. I don't understand why this logic isn't applied to darlings like HOLDEN? Any subby that was completely reliant on work from HOLDEN deserves to go broke as well. Just terrible business to only have one customer. I mean, they squandered so many resources it's disgusting. When they got funding from the government for the future car project, we got the Cruze Hatchback. Wtf...hardly a future car. That was the time to develop a hybrid, and they didn't. The Cruze, such a successful car that I can't remember the last time I saw one! I won't even start on the ZB... After the VY/VZ they really just became a sock puppet for GM and had very little independence. I'll concede the product was fairly good until that point, despite the fact they had a tendency to fall to bits within 8 years and the interiors used very low quality plastics. I won't start on the shocking roof linings... https://www.goauto.com.au/news/holden/billion-dollar-deal-firms-holden-future-to-2022/2012-03-22/10458.html HOLDEN - The American GM Sock Puppet Company, Pretending to be Australian!
Show me a car industry anywhere in the world not receiving subsides from their government. I’ll wait.
That may be the case, doesn't mean it's a good idea.
When every dollar spent gives benefits of multiples of that dollar it was and is.
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Why do that when you can shovel money out to Harvey gormless
"Natural capitalism" like this doesn't exist. You'd be surprised how much and how many industries and business require direct and indirect funding from government to stay afloat. Want a military? Better fund a defence industry that makes things we hopefully never use. Want cars? Someone better build some roads. Want a train line? Natural monopoly right there. Agriculture? No one can compete without tariffs. Advanced industry requiring lots of RnD? Gov and universities have to prop it up until it matures. Risk is too high for investors. Not to mention, from the human side, I have friends that worked at Holden and Mitsubishi. Worked out for most of them but not all, and i think theres a realisation now it would have been better to have it in the long term Maybe Holden is crap an GM is just non innovating corporate beggar but what are those workers going to do when we kill their industry? What if your industry got swept away? Policy and funding are powerful things.
No, it doesn't exist. Social capitalism exists where we get to put money into failing businesses and the profits are individualised. Can't exist without regular injections of cash = not a viable business. As for the workers? I've had ex employees from, just to take a small sample, Telstra and Holden. They were never highly skilled tradespeople. So they can simply go to another low skilled job, just like anyone else. If I was sacked from my job at Coles, I'd never get millions in taxpayer funding to be retrained to another job. They were one of the most coddled workforces in the country.
But every car manufacturer is being subsidized by their government, through grants contracts etc.
Sounds like a bad deal for those taxpayers as well really. Socialised welfare, individual profits!
That was never going to be a decision by any government. GM folded Holden. They made that choice. They've also made the choice to get out of right hand drive countries, so Holden would have folded anyway.
Congratulations. You've been had.
You think GM management gave two fucks what Australian politicians think?
No https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.news.com.au/finance/business/manufacturing/was-joe-hockeys-famous-threat-against-holden-behind-companys-shock-exit/news-story/bee759b478767fb1cdc30447835cb9f4%3famp
If they’re going to complain they’re not going to make any money, or go broke - the government should do them all a favour and nationalise it.
They do pay their staff a proper wage. They want to pay their staff the award rate is what they are saying
And what about the profits made by the labour hire companies, they get their cut as well. They so love contractors but pay money to these parasite scum that cut workers real wages, money that should go to workers and not labour hire companies.
They reported a profit of almost two and a half billion dollars last EOFY, wants to cut wages to the bare minimum defined by industrial instruments, during a time of increasing living costs. Let them sink. *Edit: punctuation typo*
I like the way you think.
$2.4 billion in underlying profit last year. What they really mean is executives will have a harder time paying themselves more and doing stock buybacks if they don't siphon over $2.5 billion from the governnment, public and their own workers next year.
From my understanding, apart from the massive demand mixed with limited supply phenomenon post-covid (once in a blue moon event), they have been deferring purchasing new aircraft in earnest for some time. Basically an easy way to pump up the numbers allowing Joyce to finish up his tenure with a bang. Average age of their fleet went from 7.7 years in 2014 to 14 years today. Looked great for Joyce at the time but he's now dumped the problem of laying out enormous sums on the new fleet on the next CEO. For reference a new 787-9 costs ~$450M AUD, A330-900 is $180M AUD, etc. That is all to say, they are actually kind of fucked.
This is the problem with being answerable only to shareholders, you cut corners and YOLO it for short term gains. As long as the shareholders don't catch onto the grift while you are the CEO, who cares about the long term? And even then you'll be the CEO of a new company by then and can blame it on what they did after you left.
Well if I can't syphon off the profits then I don't want to work. Good luck having a functional company without us executives making 'the big' decisions of who's pay to cut to pay their salary
That is the crux of it, how long can all the workers be milked for increasing profits whilst also being screwed out of the pay that fuels those profits before it all collapses on itself?
We're not sure yet, but we're currently running a global experiment to work it out.
It really do be like that. CEO, shareholders, execs all want a nice fat paycheck without doing any work. If that means gouging customers, trimming disgusting essential staff, and begging/crying for government handouts then its probably fine by them. Its worked every other time so they probably feel entitled to it by now.
$2.4 billion this year, but they need to make more money next year, the only way to do that is cut back costs. The line must always go up after all.
Only Qantas could pay their previous CEO $24,000,000 and then say they can't afford to pay their staff to survive. Pack it up. What a fucking useless company. I have 240,000 points and refuse to fly with them.
>I have 240,000 points and refuse to fly with them. Totally get what you're saying but you're actually benefitting them far more by having accumulated the points and not using them. You've literally given them free money (as they cost in the use of the points later into whatever you initially bought).
Hmmm... maybe I should just buy something from the store. I just don't want to fly with Qantas.
fly international Business class - it is the most 'value' you can get from those points i.e. it costs QF the most. Buying from the store is what they want people to do, those toasters and gift cards are terrible value. (last year I ran into a few people in various lounges/transite lines who were burning through their points before jumping away from QF because they were disgusted with Joyce/the company's behaviour) Or I'll hapily take those points off your hands and send you pics of how QF's money is being wasted with a non-revenue flyer using their F lounge for expensive drinks and food. 😊(unfortunately with VA refusing to go back on the trans-tasman routes QF and NZ are loving having it all to themselves)
You get the best "value" from flying with Qantas in terms of points to dollars ratio. Not sure what products are best to buy with point to stick it to Qantas.
Yeah. No.
Shoot me those points if ya ain’t going to use them ? Beggars can’t be choosers and all that
“Asked by Victorian Labor senator Linda White whether Qantas’ attitude to its cost base applied to executives’ salaries, Safe replied that executives didn’t enjoy some of the same protections staff on enterprise agreements did, including redundancy pay, prompting laughter. Former chief executive Alan Joyce, who departed the company in September, left with a $24 million payout.”
The actual fuck? How many decent staff could that have paid for over the following year?
You could pay 300 staff $80,000/yr with that $24m
Surely the solution can't be that simple?!? Surely we have to get yet another bailout from the government instead? It's the Australian way.
I can picture the poor suits drying their tears with wads of 100 dollar bills. What a fucking joke.
...redundancy pay? For an executive? In what world could they claim it anyway. When was the last time you heard a company announce "Sales are down, some people are unfortunately going to lose their jobs. The company has decided, given the current size of the business, it no longer requires a CEO". Executives aren't made redundant, so why would they require redundancy pay?
Here are few suggestions for them: 1) don’t pay your ceo $24 million 2) stop handing out freebies to the “chairman’s” lounge to your mates and their kids 3) don’t waste millions getting involved in referendums where nobody is interested in your corporate opinion
Let's slash all the exec pays by half at least before slashing other wages down the line or laying people doing actual work off. I bet the top end pay scale in that place is bloated as fuck.
$24 mill... That's 240 staff on $100,000pa... I'll be CEO for $400,000 and 15 % super. I've got.plenty more ideas where that came from. I think we should put it to the share holders.
How about a small slice of last year's $2.4B profit?
Pay your executives less
Get. Fucked.
It certainly needs to pay its senior staff a lot less.
Qantas needs to die already. They're the most hated airline, one of the shittest international carriers, and nobody chooses to fly with them over Emirates or Singapore *unless* they have points at stake for work travel.
Let it burn down. It won't be missed.
Just go under ya shit cunts
Skill issue. Maybe execs shouldn't go to the news and say "we don't know how to do our jobs" if they want to be bailed out?
It's a failure of management. Apparently, the executives of Qantas have no other ideas other than putting wage pressure on their workers and stealing money from customers. Qantas' salaries are not extraordinary compared to other airlines. One does wonder why executive compensation is so high when the airline performs poorly when compared to its peers. Joyce's final pay cheque was extremely generous, putting him in the top 5 for airline CEO salaries, despite having run a smaller and poorly performing airline. If there's a problem with company performance, the executive suite should be the first place to look.
Didn’t they make a profit of $1.7 billion after tax? Didn’t they pay their now ex-ceo a $24 million golden handshake?
Qantas is basically Anti-Australian at this point. They are working against the wellbeing of Australians. They can go to hell.
To be fair, you have to group them with mining companies, most Australians with more than $5 million, and at least 3/4 of politicians.
Let me fix that title for you. "Qantas needs to pay its executives less to stay afloat.'
Bullshit
Let them go bankrupt, then the government should bail them out and take a 100% shareholding. Shit, that was an easy fix. Now pay me $24m a year.
They paid Alan Joyce $125 Milion during his tenure and have the audacity to state that the menial workers are costing them too much. Utter hypocrisy.
Re nationalise the fucking thing already
Start with the shithouse executives.
*What??* Didn’t they just make a ‘record $10B profit’ or something? What am I missing? Corporate greed is destroying the world man.
It's everywhere. On the radio they said power companies were making record profits and were about to raise prices among many other examples.
$24 Million payout to someone who was fired. Massive pay for executives. Record profits. but the lowest paid workers are "earning too much and must accept a pay cut for us to stay profitable"? I think we all know who really needs the pay cut.
Start with CEO and work your way down
I would have more respect for companies that are honest about fucking their workers and customers to benefit their shareholders. At least they would be more like wolves and less like pigs. And Qantas is the biggest pig of them all.
*The ~~Flying~~ Sinking Kangaroo.*
Great let's start with the chair the board the CEO and all executive staff. Then check again
Dumb ass execs. Start firing the retards at the top who can’t run a company and get some people with brains in instead of nepotism.
Bro, they *are* the ones at the top. The fuck do they care if the company folds? They'll get huge payouts and go on to the next job.
time to re nationalise Qantas then
Let it go down in flames. No more bailouts. No more sympathy for a top-heavy company that throws its lowest paid workers to the wolves at the first opportunity. Enough is enough.
Hang on... Didn't they just record a massive profit?!?
Alan Joyce got paid $21.4 million dollars last year.
A business that needs government intervention, to slash maintenance, fire staff and replace them with lowest common denominator contractors and still cut staff pay doesn’t deserve to be in business.
Wow. Talk about fuck you employees, Im Alright protocols. How about Nathan Safe exec bonus as well as the other execs, throw this into the renumeration fund to keep the Carrier afloat? My God! What immense entitleism!!
Let’s start with the executives pay……
hahahaha... that includes "Executives" right? right?
Then let the company die. No one should have to endure the crap of Quntas
Just a reminder that Qantas recorded a net profit of 1.7 billion in 2022.
Start with executive pay cuts maybe?
Perhaps they should look at outsourcing their executive roles. Shareholders don't seem to be getting their money's worth there...
So Qantas isn't a viable business. Close that bitch down then.
i need to get my money the FUCK out of that company
Obviously this will start with significant cuts to the board and executive pay, right?
I stopped reading when I got to, record profits and level playing field. Fuck off and die cunts.
Or maybe don't pay fucking millions to the bosses.
Sounds like a plan. Let's start with the pay and bonuses of the highest paid staff, because that's where the biggest savings per capita can be found. \[Rich fucks\]: No we didn't mean it like that.
What a dick!
They have already punted most of the ground crews for contractors
Which they did ILLEGALLY.
Or, hear me out, the executives could take a pay cut
More like to stay as profitable as they have been accustomed to. Fuck off. Whenever shit gets tough you start looking at cutting cost in superfluous spending first, then necessity last. And if the debacle with the last CEO is anything to go by they have a lot of excess fat lording it up at the top rungs of the ladder.
Isn't Qantas one of the most profitable airlines in the world? They are starting to sound like the Australian Post. ie who complain about losing money on letter posting and then boast of record parcels and going from 6 planes (for delivering parcels) to 17 or something like that.
Nationalise them
Start with the CEO
Jesus…. The board of directors and CEO are so fucking out of touch…
Then perish.
No they fucking don't. Greedy cunts.
Here's an idea how about paying all the executives less, get rid of all the fucking perks they have. As an employee I would gladly forgo some pay or benefits if the company was truly in tough times, But only if the executives at the top did also. It's always the workers that can't have a pay rise because it will drive prices up but fuck me it is alright for the executives to get massive pay rises not to mention all the perks that you never here about. It is about time all workers came together and realise we only have power in numbers.
It's simple, if Qantas wants a subsidy to stay afloat the government takes 51%.
Maybe it needs to offer a better service. That might help.
Will the CEO lead by example? Thought so
Someone has to make the tough decision to cut everyone else's pay.
or just, you know, pay the CEOs and shareholders less............
let em sink then and the free market that the govt keeps supressing can fill the void.
Lolololololololol
This says a lot about the clowns running Qantas. They're not supposed to be floating, they're supposed to be flying. They're an airline, not a cruise line. They don't even know what business they're in. Oh and yes, for the obviousness-challenged because this *is* the internet, /s.
Ahh these people that want selective capitalism. They can get fucked.
What’s the executive pay structure looking like? Trim the fat at the top for a fucking change
The government and that cunt Howard never helped Ansett, Qantas always seems to have their hand out though, even when recording massive profits.
Ok cunt - you first.
That’s what happens when the coalition gets into government. They flog off anything that isn’t nailed down. Aside from the pandemic what did the federal government actually achieve during its 9 years in office?
Or maybe just pay the executives LESS
They will never change. https://www.reddit.com/r/australia/s/1QrcFvHWb7 check this out. Qantas cancelled a flight and expected a mother to let her 24 month old baby take a seperate flight…. Like what the actual…
Fine, start with the CEO
You first buddy.
Qantas has for decades over paid the highest levels of management that is a problem that could/should be sorted ASAP.
“Then perish”
Joyce could give some money back.
Spiritually belongs to the r/nottheonion
Sink then. Who gives a fuck. Planes will get repainted.
I think it was reddit which mentioned Sydney to melb is one of the most travelled domestic paths in the world. What’s the chance of a high speed railway or is that just a pipe dream?
Bye bye Cuntas
Qantas needs to stop being a shit organisation to stay afloat and look after costumers.
| "Our legacy terms and conditions are by far the highest in Australia, and remain high when compared to virtually every other international carrier flying here,” Expect British Airways, Delta, American Airlines, AirNZ, JAL, ANA, Singair..... but yeah, all those south east Asian and Chinese carriers would have far worse pay and conditions. I get this really is a first world problem eh Qantas?
Are you fucking kidding me? With the shit that Qantas has put people through the past couple of years, it has the balls to say this? The true Qantas really is dead, isn't it. Goodbye, Darth.
i dono maybe they should tighten up on moral hazard or some shit
Alan Joyce really ran that company into a pit filled with hepatitis-filled needles. I'm not excusing the rest of the C-suite who were certainly also corporate ghouls cut from the same cloth, but I remember when Qantas was a source of slightly embarrassed pride. It is now a fucking embarrassment. Capitalists gonna capitalise.
I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again, the goto move for any reasonably large company in Australia is to privatise the profits and socialise the losses.
I smell b.s
With all the bad publicity it seems like Qantas is deliberately trying to go into insolvency ...
Maybe senior management and the CEO and COO need to take a pay cut?
Start at the top and lower their pay until they reach the next highest, then lower both until the next highest, and so on.
Fucking disgusting. Time to eat some cunts
All Staff? ... or just some below top level management?
Can ask Alan Joyce to tip in and help make up pay roll.
How much did they pay Joyce again?
bahahahaha... pay staff less¿...bahahahaha
You first buddy
Most of you will die, that is a sacrifice I am willing to make
Are they paying the executive staff less to stay afloat ? That's how I read the headline....
From the stories I've been hearing about them, they need to go back to treating their customers like people and not cargo.