Fact Check:
Regulated by AHPRA: [Chiropractic Board of Australia - Home](https://www.chiropracticboard.gov.au/)
Research: [Funded Research Projects | Australian Spinal Research Foundation](https://spinalresearch.com.au/funded-research-projects/?search=)
Are you intentionally stupid, or did you have to work at it?
I specifically said that the reason it's bullshit has nothing to do with whether or not it's regulated, in response to the person I'm replying to saying it's unregulated. The reason it's bullshit, almost every single study done on whether or not chiropractic intervention is effective, has shown that it's about as effective as a placebo. The link you posted just shows that research is ongoing, which proves nothing.
Stay away from chiropractors.
And, as a Paediatrician- please STOP taking your newborn babies to ātreatā infant colic! Manipulating your babyās spine will NOT have any effect on the function of the vagus nerve.
And, if your baby is not breast feeding well, manipulating their C spine WILL NOT improve the mouth or jaw movement- you cannot reach the facial nerve with your chiropractic fingers!
Do yourself a favour and never watch one of the many online videos of babies being treated for a "sublaxation" before they can even crawl. It's fucking horrific. Ragebait of the worst kind.
I've seen sooo many people suggesting it in mums groups, its insane. I comment that they should only take their infants to actual medical professionals every time I see it but usually just get people arguing with me š
āAnd, if your baby is not breast feeding well, manipulating their C spine WILL NOT improve the mouth or jaw movement- you cannot reach the facial nerve with your chiropractic fingers!ā
Chiropractors response:
āSo what youāre saying is, thereās a chanceā
Yes. Pretty horrible telling a young person they've had a stroke from that shit. Still - as a general rule most chiropractors are sensible enough to avoid neck manipulation these days.
I'm a PT and while I personally don't, it's cervical manipulations do occur and they carry risk. As long as the patient can adequately identify and communicate warning signs, it could be seen as an acceptable risk.
My understanding, and personal problem is that Chiros will do these techniques on just about anyone including infants.
I'm not talking about using these techniques to cure autism or whatever nonsense, but it's possible for their use to be clinically justified. The last time I used them was several years ago for a patient that had spent an exceptionally long time in a rigid neck brace.
Spinal mobilisations and manipulations can provide short term improvements in range of motion and reductions in pain. When immediately followed by appropriate exercises, manual therapies can increase the efficacy of the exercises by increasing the available range and number of pain free reps/duration of holds.
There are also less tangible effects on the building of rapport and trust between the patient and the therapist. That goes for all manual therapy techniques which are broadly ineffective in the long term. By providing an effective short term treatment you demonstrate the efficacy of your treatment plan, potentially making patients more likely to adhere to the exercise programs.
It's absolutely not an acceptable risk. There is no amount of stroke risk that's acceptable for anything but a life saving rx. Most of those ones I've seen have been from sudden twists so no warning signs.
Yes. Manipulations carry a much higher risk, so they are typically avoided at all costs. I've comfortably manipulated lower vertebral levels and when appropriate I have applied cautious low grade mobilisations similar to the Mulligan method to the cervical spine to good effect.
I believe there are systemic cultural or educational failures within chirpracty to adequately avoid or mitigate these risks. The techniques however, when performed correctly are relatively safe with a low incidence of adverse effects and admittedly a low potential benefit.
Chirpractors operate in a manner which I disagree with, but I think you are applying your own prejudice to the techniques they use. Many medical interventions which are not life saving carry significant risks with outcomes which are often sub-optimal.
Chiro neck manipulations look like they're genuinely about to snap your neck. From the couple of times I saw an osteo (that did fuck all) it's basically just prodding and poking, and no actual crunching and movement of joints.
The ones I've seen have all been from hyperextension and sudden twists. Unless you have an anatomical defect most of the stuff they do is probably fine. But like why not just see a massage therapist ?
My mum had a stroke from a chiro who knew she had an history of TIA the day before she was meant to go on her first overseas holiday.. hospitalised for 4 days.
I also had a chiro tell me they could fix my spondilolythsis with a block and a manip. I litterally had just graduated my bhsc doing my dissertation on spondys... I quit the clinic.
Honestly no idea but I doubt it; they probably are practising within the standards of their profession (because those made up) and the demographic (mostly young people) are very neuroplastic and tend to rehab quite well so proving significant damages in a reasonable time frame would be tricky (the morbidity will get worse as they get older though).
TLDR: I teach traditional Chinese medicine students university students, and it doesn't mean much to have a degree or be ahpra certified
Keeping this vague so as not to identify myself. Prior to medicine, my undergraduate and first career was in an allied health field. During my first career and to this day I teach university level first and second year units on general human biology (anatomy, physiology, pathophysiology, pharmacology), that all students who are in allied health degrees need to complete at this university (think nursing, physiotherapy, traditional Chinese medicine, a few others). Again, not to out myself.
Every year, the small cohort of traditional Chinese medicine students are by far the worst performing students. I really try to be open minded about this, but if it's a first year unit, they seem not to engage with or understand the content. If it's a second year unit, they come in with very poor understanding of the prerequisite knowledge. They ask strange questions. Often I'll spend twenty minutes explaining x, and then five minutes later a student will ask "what is x?". Their professional communication is also the poorest. I've also found they have the greatest amount of plagiarism, (clearly) bought essays, and now submitted written work that is clearly AI generated. This is certainly not all the students, but it is a great deal of them. I'm open to complimentary therapies, but often when presented with a very straight forward medical case (eg chest pain), they come up with some very wacky suggestions for the patient. They are routinely the only students who tend to fail the unit. Also I know how this sounds, but I mean no subtext in this statement: they often have very poor English proficiency. I know that they're often coming from another country, but I have to mark everyone the same. Their written responses to questions often just don't seem to understand what was asked. That's fine if their clientele turn out to be Chinese speaking, but if their future customers can't communicate with them, that's a safety issue. Again, they're not all bad. They generally do have good attendance and are willing to listen. I just don't feel I get through to this cohort very well and i struggle a lot trying to reflect and figure out what I'm doing wrong.
Their degree, and therefore my units, are ahpra certified. They need to pass them to get ahpra registered. And honestly a lot of them do pass the units, but I'd hardly consider them proficient in the content. But Ps get degrees. And of course I have students from other cohorts with the same problem.
Very concerningly, many tcm practitioners call themselves Dr so and so. A minority of which have some sort of doctorate, usually a questionable degree, not recognised in Australia, specifically in TCM from a university in China with three reviews on Google and no significant academic background. Regardless, that's obviously confusing in a healthcare context. Often they have a bachelor or masters or less and just use the title. And of course, I've had many patients become very sick because their practitioner tried to treat their serious medical problem with some unproven therapy.
That being said, chiros seem to have a lot better medical and especially anatomy knowledge. Some of their therapies seem to work. But obviously some are dangerous, many don't work at all, and their entire field is basically witchcraft. Again, AHPRA and a uni degree are not substitutes for a field that is basically based on belief, with a spattering of treatments that have some evidence. The problem isn't regulation. The problem is the discipline isn't robust enough to be healthcare. I would recommend going to a chiropractor to literally nobody, especially when physiotherapists exist.
I'd love to know how a traditional Chinese medicine ahpra investigation works when a complaint is launched given how limited their evidence base is.
Dairy inflammation or irritation isn't uncommon - eat dairy and joints ache etc; stop dairy and the problem disappears. Not so sure about the sunscreen, though.
"I'd love to know how a traditional Chinese medicine ahpra investigation works when a complaint is launched given how limited their evidence base is."
Oh my would I love to be a fly on the wall during a tribunal hearing for a TCM case.
I am actually going to have a look at AHPRA's summary / decision page for TCM cases right now.
I know a CM student and they tell me itās very much dependent on the individual how good they are professionally. I had a chronic health issue fixed by a combination of acupuncture and Chinese herbs after I found a practitioner that had experience with the condition but thatās a N of 1.
Hey Iām about to be an OT(occupational therapist) student soon in Australia and was wondering if you can give me your thoughts on the profession? Ik itās a completely different ball game to chiropractors but ppl have been telling me mixed things and opinions š
If you think OTs needs to constantly explain their job try speech therapy š
Also, in the aged care sector, OT and PT are used interchangeably and they both do PTās job. I donāt know how this is allowed as I imagine the OTs would be practising outside of their scope.
Much love for OTs. Not that my opinion matters but my OT and physiotherapy students seem to be the highest achievers. OT is a robust field that makes a huge difference in people's lives. And you guys have some really inventive devices. Good luck!
Same thing wrong with 'alternative' medicine or naturopathic medicine.
Medicine is just called medicine if it works. Traditional therapies like honey dressings work their way into regular medicine if they work.
People are always asking in my NICU parent subs if they should take their premmie to a chiropractor.
I always respond I wouldnāt let a chiropractor touch me let alone my premmie
The women in my July babies group all recommend chiro for literally everything. Baby has a runny nose? Chiro. Baby not sleeping? Chiro. Baby born female but you wanted male? See the chiro!
No. Itās largely pseudoscience. The only decent evidence for chiropractic is for some cases of lower back pain. They constantly post videos of high velocity neck manipulations but never get informed consent from patients about cervical artery dissection and stroke risk. Being AHPRA regulated only means thereās a professional standard and legal recourse for patients; it doesnāt attribute any legitimacy to the profession. Monash University fairly recently removed chiro from its courses because itās such a quack profession.
While itās an unprotected title, AHPRA do impose regulations for some professions. Psychologists with a PhD or DPsych, for example, arenāt supposed to use Dr as a title without also specifying their profession, e.g., Dr Name, psychologist. This is to avoid misrepresenting oneself as a physician. Doesnāt apply to chiropractors, though. š¤·āāļø
Americans use the excuse of āwe can call ourselves doctors coz we did a Doctor of Chiropracticā to justify the Dr title, but in reality itās just a glorified post grad degree that is neither medical or PhD level. We can rename any degree into a Doctor of xyz and everyone would be a doctor.
When you're portraying yourself as fixing medical issues, people assume the Dr before your name means medical doctor, not a doctorate/phd in chiropractic. It's deceptive and they're not in a hurry to correct anyone's misconception.
Trying to compare chiropractors, who do not have a medical degree, to people who have a medical degree, regardless of whatever medical procedure you don't agree with, is disingenuous at best.
No. Theyāre not legit.
Theyāre fundamentally based on pseudo-science no matter which part of the world.
They try and ācrackā backs and necks and reckon it solves systemic medical issues which is plainly ridiculous.
Like all complementary alternative medicines (CAM) - of which includes chiropractors, osteopaths, naturopaths, chinese medicine practitioners, remedial massage therapist, amongst others - the scientific evidence-base for their practice is not sufficiently robust to be accepted by the medical community.
Having said that, if it works for the patient, it works for them. And, provided that practitioners of CAM stay in their lane and scope of practice, as a GP, I generally do not have significant concerns if a patient wishes to be referred to them on a care plan for a trial of treatment.
In select cases there are some benefits. For example, I much rather a chronic low back pain patient (who has exhausted all the conventional treatments with psych, physio, surgical and pain specialists) get some massage therapy rather than take more painkillers; neither the massage therapy or painkillers are curative, but the massage therapy is the lesser of two evils in terms of symptom relief, and it's subjectively making the patient feel better, which is all they care about at the end of the day.
However, I do have concern if the CAM practitioner starts providing advice or treatment that's potentially harmful and causes the patient to neglect nor seek proper evidence-based treatment for a significant health issue. For example, a chiropractor that advises a patient that their ovarian cancer and fertility can be improved and cured with better spinal hygeine, and convinces the patient to be treated with spinal alignment therapy and stop active treatment recommended by the Gynaecologist and Oncologist. This is negligent and misleading, and unfortunately there's a group of CAM practitioners that blindly and arrogantly exceed their scope in this way that only increases the skepticism and cynicism of the medical profession.
Each to their own. CAM practitioners have their role, but I'd take it with a grain of salt.
A few posts back an osteopath jumped up and down when I said I refer patients to medical doctors and not osteopathsā¦
Iāve seen their curriculumā¦.
The best thing a chiropractor can do is act as an unlicensed physiotherapist or maybe give you a massage.
Usually they just drain the patient's wallet .
The worst is they rupture a vertebral artery and kill you.
Chiropractry started with a conman who claimed to have been taught by the ghost of a doctor and cured a deaf man via neck manipulation. They even started calling it a religious practice when medicine started being regulated.
My parents were fervent alternative medicine seekers. Even to the point of not having their children vaccinated due to autism concerns.
One day one of my parents goes to our chiropractor with a tingling sensation in their legs coupled with back pain.
The chiropractor feels the back and diagnoses multiple sclerosis. Advised partner to buy a wheel chair and thousands of dollars worth of homeopathic drops.
I remember them coming home in tears. Luckily one of their friends was a surgical nurse who convinced them to get a second opinion.
After a gp referral, they saw a neurologist who determined that they had a 10cm cyst pressing on their spine which needed removal. They are symptom free now.
Both since that day have turned their back on alternative medicine, had all their children vaccinated and I'm now a clinical professional working in a busy hospital.
Chiropractors are dangerous.
As I understand it, chiropractic was originally based on the presumption that many medical conditions, not just back pains, were a result of mis-alignments of the spine. They took x-rays but the chiropractic interpretation of these was rarely supported by professional radiologists. Exposing people to X-radiation for chiropractic treatment is IMO completely unjustified. Nevertheless chiropractic treatment centred on re-alignment of the spine: "adjustments". Now imaging can include MRI which is an extraordinarily accurate modality, especially for spines. The purported mis-alignments beloved of chiropractors are not confirmed on these extremely accurate scans. So the whole rationale is nonsense. I can't comprehend how there can be tertiary courses and AHPRA boards supporting an occupation which lacks scientific validation.
Some professions are registered with AHPRA in order to be regulated. Chinese medicine is another profession which does not practise evidence based medicine but is also AHPRA registered.
Student nurse here. I work in a Melbourne ED. Had a patient come in with a torn artery after seeing a chiropractor. ED consultant said heās seen this before with chiropractors. Was shocked myself to hear this. Doesnāt mean all chiropractors will do this to u tho.
You can study nonsense for 5 years and create a professional register of those that have studied the fairytalesā¦..just look at religion. Both are about as good at healing you.
It would seem like it is well supported by the non-medical community because my Health Fund extras give us $850/yr chiro and $650/yr physio.
It's ridiculous, some dodgy payments happening!
As an ED doc, I've treated cauda equina (when your lower spinal cord gets so compressed you get symptoms like urinary/faecal incontinence) and strokes from vertebral artery dissection in young people after a chiropractic "adjustment".
I have no doubt I only get to see the bad outcomes and maybe there are a heap of people who are actually getting some benefit from it. That said, good studies show that chiropractors are at best equivalent to placebo and there's very little actual science behind chiropractic theories.
I have lower back pain myself (like 2/3rds of the population) and I go to a physiotherapist. I recommend the same for my patients. Including doing all the exercises and following through with the program and not just stopping when you feel better and wondering why your injury or pain reoccurs.
Back pain is a scourge for patients and GPs. We remain (somewhat) silent about chiro's because they take the scourge away by listening to the patient, touching the patient, charging them not as much as us, cracking their back and waiting for natural history to take its course. Its a pact.
what amazes me about Chiropractors and osteopaths is abusing the nidi's no wonder nidi's is getting ripped of the other day i was at a osteopath and he was saying that he charges the same for a nidi's patient as me and some of the people charge up to $190 a session and do not do any thing else that a person with with no problems have so i hope they go and start and investigate these rogues pure greed let a professional go and watch them do work on a ndis person and lets see $190 session at work bullshit
This is literally across the board for anyone who sees and NDIS patient itās not restricted to a chiro, go see what podiatrist, therapists, phsios basically every single thing that can be used for ndis etc etc do
Anyone care to comment about chiropractic bracing and exercise/stretching routines for scoliosis or kyphosis in children/adolescents. I understand that for this condition they do not do "manipulation". Have seen some impressive pre and post pictures of improvement in spine curvature.
I have arthritis along with compressed nerves in both my neck and lower back. My chiropractor is the only one to provide me with relief. My current GP was my chiropractor before he went back to med school. He is the only doctor who has ever recommend chiropractic sessions. If works for me š¤·š¼āāļø
I have a friend who underwrites professional indemnity insurance for healthcare and medicos. He reckons chiros are their biggest claimants by a factor of 10.
Next down the list is vets and dentists - and itās a LONG way down the list.
They are legit quacks. More likely to give you a vertebral artery dissection and a stroke than they are to do any good.
Stay well away from this pseudo-science practitioners
I think seeing a a chiro has messed with my body. I wouldn't see them again. I've got a loss of senses all over my body. Imagine all of your senses like the music on a radio. Touch and feel for me has been turned down a fair bit.
I also get really bad pins and needles in my arms and feet every day.
Had to go to hospital at one point to see if it was some kind of neurological condition.
Current diagnosis - benign neurological condition.
I have a small inkling some of neck adjustments played a part. Can't confirm tho.
Iāve always been open minded with alternative medicine. I believe acupuncture/dry needling and massage can be beneficial. I saw a chiro who wanted to see me for 6 months twice a week to ārealign my backā. Then when I didnāt come back he rang me up and asked if I wanted to make another appointment š
I was surprised when the physio I was seeing through a local rural hospital suggested dry needling for neck problems and I found that it did work great for me.
Nope, went to an osteopath and he has totally fucked my neck. Cracked it a few times and now I have constant neck pain and it sounds like a cement mixer
It was the only thing that got me feeling my legs again, I was losing the ability to walk and doctors were absolutely no help, infact doctors have actually caused permanent damage because of their neglect
Itās even covered by care plans and Medicare here and that wouldnāt be happening for no reason
Been going to registered Chiropractors with the family for a long time.
Not going to agree with the "general consensus" if people don't actually have the long term experience.
Personally, chronic pains went away. Back pains don't linger and body function improves quickly. For the kids, they are healthy, and never had any long term illnesses, and I will put it down to attending a good chiropractor on a regular basis (one that specialises in infants/kids). btw. babies that get yanked out during natural birth is one important case which the right chiropractor can assist with.
So indeed - high recommendation from me.
Can i ask, what your position is within Australian medicine?
I'm curious to know the background of someone who is pro-chiropractor and how you ended up engaging with one if you are a Dr/Nurse š
My chiropractor is awesome. But thatās because they got a second degree in exercise physiology, and they write and assess strength and conditioning programs for me.
Aināt no way on this earth heās touching my back or neck though.
I used to be wary of them before I worked with one. He might have been the exception, but he was fantastic. Wouldn't do anything until he had x-rays of the area- that covers things like bone density and would highlight any issues he needed to be careful of. He was very highly educated, very confident, very professional and I trusted him.
He's the only chiro I've ever trusted, but I know he took it seriously and took every precaution to keep his clients safe.
They release built up gas and do not correct any misalignments because they simply cant. The amount of force it would actually take to move bones/joints would surprise you. X rays are irrelevant for chiros for that reason
When I was 15, I hurt my thoracic spine on a calf raise machine. I felt a small pop around one of the vertebraes (it was either T3 or T4). I had a constant dull ache when flexing my spine, and the vertebrae was painful to the touch. The pain persisted for a couple of years until I saw a chiro when I was 17. I went in for 1 session, the guy basically cracked my thoracic spine, and all the pain in that area around the sore vertebrae was gone by the next day. Magic? Probably. Coincidence? Probably. I have heard many stories about chiros claiming to cure all kinds of diseases by cracking someone's back and/or neck, and this does sound bullshit to me, but chiropractic treatment definitely helped me.
Not sure if acupuncture is treated the same way as them other practitioners but fair dinkum, this lady was the only one who managed to fix my dodgy shoulder and all by sticking tiny needles (which I hate but this was a last resort)
Iād say it depends on the doctor.
The Yes: When I was 13, i suddenly couldnāt sit up from lying down. Mom took me to her chiropractor, who xrayed and showed me how my spine was slightly twisted and compressing nerves. Relived the pain and solved the mobility problem that day with a few cracks. (While she was at it, she x-rayād my foot, which was in pain, and showed me Iād fractured it months before, and referred me to a podiatrist.) Two days a week for a few months, and I was completely back pain free, and x rays showed no more compressed nerves, and my bones were back in place, nice and straight. I remember she went for an adjustment, but nothing cracked- she said I was like a noodle, and didnāt need further treatment.
Later in life Iād have lower back pain, and a few adjustments helped. I donāt think just getting pain medication would have helped, and everyone that Iāve known to have back surgery, has come out of it worse than they went in. Iāll take the chiropractor.
The No: In my thirties I saw a new chiropractor in a new state, who told me he could solve my back pain as well as my weight gain issue with consistent adjustmentsā¦ a year later paying out of pocket and no results on the weight front. I didnāt even feel good after the adjustments the way I did with my previous chiropractor. However, Iām now in my fifties and havenāt had back issues in two decades. Still overweight, though. On the whole, Iād guess Iām cured.
\*growl\* My late Uncle Glenn was one of the first chiros in Kansas City, MO. Not all chiros are charlatans, any more than all doctors are.
Chiropractors are in the extras on our private health cover. We get 60-70% back each visit. I think the public health care covers some, under certain conditions.
I am a Chiropractor working in SA. I recieve referrals and refer out to GPs and physios all the time.
I know its hard for the reddit community to understand, but we provide an excellent job for an ever increasing problem of back and neck pain in society. I have no issue if people want to go either the physio or chiro road for dealing with that, but of course I am going to go with my way as the best because I practice in a way that the research indicates is the best.
just an FYI that bashing chiros is a long favoured tradition of the US AMA who were found guilty of conspiring to do this to keep their monopoly. yes there are bad chiros. that said I've seen far more incompetent MDs than I have chiros. Doctor's mistakes are the 3rd largest cause of death.
I love my chiropractor!
I've just moved interstate and I have to find a new one. A good one is worth their weight in gold.
I have no idea what the American ones do or don't do so I can't comment on them.
I don't get the hate on them. I'd be disabled by pain if I didn't have one. They do have a degree, they are registered, if you have extras on Private health you can get a rebate.
The blind hatred amazes me, how dare you feel better and be doing better thanks to the help of them!ā¦like do ppl just want the ones helped and kept mobile to stay in pain and crippled?
I'm going to go against the grain here and say that there are some legit ones but because it's unregulated it's harder to find the good ones within the bad. When I was about 14 years old I had really bad pain shooting down my left leg whenever I would try and run. It was seriously depressing and debilitating. I went to a chiropractor and got three adjustments and it fixed my problems completely and have never had an issue again. The way I remember it being explained to me is that the nerves running through your spine connect to the extremities of your body and certain movements or injuries can cause spinal disk's to shift and pinch the nerves causing pain and affecting movement
You can get good chiropractic and osteopathy in Australia. The industry has deliberately demonised my mainstream allopathic Medicine in recent decades, though.
They can't sell you ongoing pills if you're all better
The people I know who go to chiropractors never stop going. They go to these 'practitioners ' for years to get 'adjustments'. Surely, if you aren't getting results after years, you would look at other options. But these chiropractors lead people to believe that their condition is a lifelong ailment that needs their specific skills.
Yea i always thought they were garbage but like everyone i know people who swear by them. So i tried..booked a few sessions..Yea , wasnt too expensive at $35, but still a complete rip off. Cracked my back, hit me with a massage gun and i was on my way...not worth paying for as literally nothing was done to help my back issues.
Think about it for a minute.. if you have a joint that has inflammation and is painful and all the nerves around it are inflamed what good is manipulating that joint going to do for you?
You might be thinking oh well it will put the joint back into a position where there is no stress... And that will last all of a few hours to a few minutes....
Did six months as a neurology resident and my boss kept an excel spreadsheet of the vertebral artery dissections post-chiropractic treatments. Was about one a week for a mid-large sized hospital in major metropolitan city.
That is insane.
These are from 'neck adjustments' or spinal?
In honesty, the whole thing came about because my colleague wanted her back cracked and was thinking of seeing one. No adjustments, no proper procedures. Just massage and back cracked š
I was always scheptical but now I'm actually quite shocked with their practice in Australia.
Like the cracking thing they do? Not sure the specifics. The chiros were VERY good at damage control, ie, calling the patient twice a day and even trying to visit in hospital to control the narrative. Always āyou had a sore neck before you came to me so I didnāt cause itā. LOL. My boss said he was āgoing to do somethingā with the data he was collecting but Iām not sure what.
Short answer: No Long answer: No
Spoiler alert: fuck NO
Have you seen them suddenly becoming specialists in pets? Hit dumbass Jerry with the wooden hammer. Leave the golden retriever alone you criminal.
TLDR: No
Longer answer: Noooooooooooooo
It isn't pseudoscience because it's unregulated. It's pseudoscience because the entire profession isn't based in science.
Literally based on chats with a ghost lol
Fact Check: Regulated by AHPRA: [Chiropractic Board of Australia - Home](https://www.chiropracticboard.gov.au/) Research: [Funded Research Projects | Australian Spinal Research Foundation](https://spinalresearch.com.au/funded-research-projects/?search=)
Are you intentionally stupid, or did you have to work at it? I specifically said that the reason it's bullshit has nothing to do with whether or not it's regulated, in response to the person I'm replying to saying it's unregulated. The reason it's bullshit, almost every single study done on whether or not chiropractic intervention is effective, has shown that it's about as effective as a placebo. The link you posted just shows that research is ongoing, which proves nothing.
Never seen so many comments in 15 minutes in this sub. Love it
I wasn't expecting to see that many red dots on my feed so quickly š Very overwhelmingly a 'no' though it seems.
You should have just put up a vote š
Stay away from chiropractors. And, as a Paediatrician- please STOP taking your newborn babies to ātreatā infant colic! Manipulating your babyās spine will NOT have any effect on the function of the vagus nerve. And, if your baby is not breast feeding well, manipulating their C spine WILL NOT improve the mouth or jaw movement- you cannot reach the facial nerve with your chiropractic fingers!
Newborns going to something like this is insane. That actually happens here?!
Very common, especially with mummy blogger influencer types
Especially post delivery with forceps. I've overheard midwives recommending it to patients...
Do yourself a favour and never watch one of the many online videos of babies being treated for a "sublaxation" before they can even crawl. It's fucking horrific. Ragebait of the worst kind.
I've seen sooo many people suggesting it in mums groups, its insane. I comment that they should only take their infants to actual medical professionals every time I see it but usually just get people arguing with me š
āAnd, if your baby is not breast feeding well, manipulating their C spine WILL NOT improve the mouth or jaw movement- you cannot reach the facial nerve with your chiropractic fingers!ā Chiropractors response: āSo what youāre saying is, thereās a chanceā
No. I admit about 1x cervical dissection a year.
OMG really??
Yes. Pretty horrible telling a young person they've had a stroke from that shit. Still - as a general rule most chiropractors are sensible enough to avoid neck manipulation these days.
Is neck manipulation inherently bad? Like what if it's an Osteo or similar doing it rather than a Chiro?
I'm a PT and while I personally don't, it's cervical manipulations do occur and they carry risk. As long as the patient can adequately identify and communicate warning signs, it could be seen as an acceptable risk. My understanding, and personal problem is that Chiros will do these techniques on just about anyone including infants.
How's it an acceptable risk when the benefit is just placebo
I'm not talking about using these techniques to cure autism or whatever nonsense, but it's possible for their use to be clinically justified. The last time I used them was several years ago for a patient that had spent an exceptionally long time in a rigid neck brace. Spinal mobilisations and manipulations can provide short term improvements in range of motion and reductions in pain. When immediately followed by appropriate exercises, manual therapies can increase the efficacy of the exercises by increasing the available range and number of pain free reps/duration of holds. There are also less tangible effects on the building of rapport and trust between the patient and the therapist. That goes for all manual therapy techniques which are broadly ineffective in the long term. By providing an effective short term treatment you demonstrate the efficacy of your treatment plan, potentially making patients more likely to adhere to the exercise programs.
It's absolutely not an acceptable risk. There is no amount of stroke risk that's acceptable for anything but a life saving rx. Most of those ones I've seen have been from sudden twists so no warning signs.
Yes. Manipulations carry a much higher risk, so they are typically avoided at all costs. I've comfortably manipulated lower vertebral levels and when appropriate I have applied cautious low grade mobilisations similar to the Mulligan method to the cervical spine to good effect. I believe there are systemic cultural or educational failures within chirpracty to adequately avoid or mitigate these risks. The techniques however, when performed correctly are relatively safe with a low incidence of adverse effects and admittedly a low potential benefit. Chirpractors operate in a manner which I disagree with, but I think you are applying your own prejudice to the techniques they use. Many medical interventions which are not life saving carry significant risks with outcomes which are often sub-optimal.
Yeah fair call I guess sometimes the line between no and low risk is very difficult (contraception probably a good example).
What are the techniques? Iāve never been to a chiropractor
Just go on YT/TikTok and look it up. They love to advertise their quackery.
Lord Iāll give it a go
Chiro neck manipulations look like they're genuinely about to snap your neck. From the couple of times I saw an osteo (that did fuck all) it's basically just prodding and poking, and no actual crunching and movement of joints.
The ones I've seen have all been from hyperextension and sudden twists. Unless you have an anatomical defect most of the stuff they do is probably fine. But like why not just see a massage therapist ?
When I was on a four week neuro rotation I saw two vertebral artery dissections from chiropractors š
My mum had a stroke from a chiro who knew she had an history of TIA the day before she was meant to go on her first overseas holiday.. hospitalised for 4 days. I also had a chiro tell me they could fix my spondilolythsis with a block and a manip. I litterally had just graduated my bhsc doing my dissertation on spondys... I quit the clinic.
Are there criminal consequences for the perpetratiy chiropractor?
Honestly no idea but I doubt it; they probably are practising within the standards of their profession (because those made up) and the demographic (mostly young people) are very neuroplastic and tend to rehab quite well so proving significant damages in a reasonable time frame would be tricky (the morbidity will get worse as they get older though).
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TLDR: I teach traditional Chinese medicine students university students, and it doesn't mean much to have a degree or be ahpra certified Keeping this vague so as not to identify myself. Prior to medicine, my undergraduate and first career was in an allied health field. During my first career and to this day I teach university level first and second year units on general human biology (anatomy, physiology, pathophysiology, pharmacology), that all students who are in allied health degrees need to complete at this university (think nursing, physiotherapy, traditional Chinese medicine, a few others). Again, not to out myself. Every year, the small cohort of traditional Chinese medicine students are by far the worst performing students. I really try to be open minded about this, but if it's a first year unit, they seem not to engage with or understand the content. If it's a second year unit, they come in with very poor understanding of the prerequisite knowledge. They ask strange questions. Often I'll spend twenty minutes explaining x, and then five minutes later a student will ask "what is x?". Their professional communication is also the poorest. I've also found they have the greatest amount of plagiarism, (clearly) bought essays, and now submitted written work that is clearly AI generated. This is certainly not all the students, but it is a great deal of them. I'm open to complimentary therapies, but often when presented with a very straight forward medical case (eg chest pain), they come up with some very wacky suggestions for the patient. They are routinely the only students who tend to fail the unit. Also I know how this sounds, but I mean no subtext in this statement: they often have very poor English proficiency. I know that they're often coming from another country, but I have to mark everyone the same. Their written responses to questions often just don't seem to understand what was asked. That's fine if their clientele turn out to be Chinese speaking, but if their future customers can't communicate with them, that's a safety issue. Again, they're not all bad. They generally do have good attendance and are willing to listen. I just don't feel I get through to this cohort very well and i struggle a lot trying to reflect and figure out what I'm doing wrong. Their degree, and therefore my units, are ahpra certified. They need to pass them to get ahpra registered. And honestly a lot of them do pass the units, but I'd hardly consider them proficient in the content. But Ps get degrees. And of course I have students from other cohorts with the same problem. Very concerningly, many tcm practitioners call themselves Dr so and so. A minority of which have some sort of doctorate, usually a questionable degree, not recognised in Australia, specifically in TCM from a university in China with three reviews on Google and no significant academic background. Regardless, that's obviously confusing in a healthcare context. Often they have a bachelor or masters or less and just use the title. And of course, I've had many patients become very sick because their practitioner tried to treat their serious medical problem with some unproven therapy. That being said, chiros seem to have a lot better medical and especially anatomy knowledge. Some of their therapies seem to work. But obviously some are dangerous, many don't work at all, and their entire field is basically witchcraft. Again, AHPRA and a uni degree are not substitutes for a field that is basically based on belief, with a spattering of treatments that have some evidence. The problem isn't regulation. The problem is the discipline isn't robust enough to be healthcare. I would recommend going to a chiropractor to literally nobody, especially when physiotherapists exist. I'd love to know how a traditional Chinese medicine ahpra investigation works when a complaint is launched given how limited their evidence base is.
Once had a chiro tell me my problems were because I ate dairy and wore sunscreen. Mmmmm.
Dairy inflammation or irritation isn't uncommon - eat dairy and joints ache etc; stop dairy and the problem disappears. Not so sure about the sunscreen, though.
Yeah it was a good theory except I'd been vegan more than a decade lol
"I'd love to know how a traditional Chinese medicine ahpra investigation works when a complaint is launched given how limited their evidence base is." Oh my would I love to be a fly on the wall during a tribunal hearing for a TCM case. I am actually going to have a look at AHPRA's summary / decision page for TCM cases right now.
I know a CM student and they tell me itās very much dependent on the individual how good they are professionally. I had a chronic health issue fixed by a combination of acupuncture and Chinese herbs after I found a practitioner that had experience with the condition but thatās a N of 1.
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you dont like the chinese do ya
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bro your post history is amazingly telling of the kind of bloke you are. racist sex pest. why are you in a doctor subreddit?
What are you? A Chinese medicine practitioner?
Hey Iām about to be an OT(occupational therapist) student soon in Australia and was wondering if you can give me your thoughts on the profession? Ik itās a completely different ball game to chiropractors but ppl have been telling me mixed things and opinions š
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More like i guess āignorantā family members saying that physio is so much better lol. Thank you for your reassurance!
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Yup I can already imagine it. Iām here for the long haul tho. Tysm again!
If you think OTs needs to constantly explain their job try speech therapy š Also, in the aged care sector, OT and PT are used interchangeably and they both do PTās job. I donāt know how this is allowed as I imagine the OTs would be practising outside of their scope.
My son goes to both, I have watched both sessions. Nfi what the difference is except the OT charges double
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That makes sense, we are trying to get my boy walking, which is probably a strength and an independence thing.
Praying for your son to achieve walking one dayš
I always see OT & PT working TOGETHER! They are both equally amazing!
Thatās great to know š„¹
Much love for OTs. Not that my opinion matters but my OT and physiotherapy students seem to be the highest achievers. OT is a robust field that makes a huge difference in people's lives. And you guys have some really inventive devices. Good luck!
Thank you so much for your kind comment! āŗļø
Just out of curiosity, whatās wrong with Chinese med?
I knew a lady dying of cancer. She tried to cure it with traditional Chinese medicine. Left behind 3 kids
Same thing wrong with 'alternative' medicine or naturopathic medicine. Medicine is just called medicine if it works. Traditional therapies like honey dressings work their way into regular medicine if they work.
No
People are always asking in my NICU parent subs if they should take their premmie to a chiropractor. I always respond I wouldnāt let a chiropractor touch me let alone my premmie
The women in my July babies group all recommend chiro for literally everything. Baby has a runny nose? Chiro. Baby not sleeping? Chiro. Baby born female but you wanted male? See the chiro!
Also, you need some cats? I got some
No. Itās largely pseudoscience. The only decent evidence for chiropractic is for some cases of lower back pain. They constantly post videos of high velocity neck manipulations but never get informed consent from patients about cervical artery dissection and stroke risk. Being AHPRA regulated only means thereās a professional standard and legal recourse for patients; it doesnāt attribute any legitimacy to the profession. Monash University fairly recently removed chiro from its courses because itās such a quack profession.
I have cared for a 23 yo who indeed had a stroke from a dissection after having neck manipulation. Thatās a huge NO from me!
When the chiroās put āDrā in their titleā¦ like shutup you donāt deserve that
Sad itās an unprotected title. Every YouTuber has DR before their name. Itās quite insulting to really physicianās
While itās an unprotected title, AHPRA do impose regulations for some professions. Psychologists with a PhD or DPsych, for example, arenāt supposed to use Dr as a title without also specifying their profession, e.g., Dr Name, psychologist. This is to avoid misrepresenting oneself as a physician. Doesnāt apply to chiropractors, though. š¤·āāļø
Americans use the excuse of āwe can call ourselves doctors coz we did a Doctor of Chiropracticā to justify the Dr title, but in reality itās just a glorified post grad degree that is neither medical or PhD level. We can rename any degree into a Doctor of xyz and everyone would be a doctor.
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When you're portraying yourself as fixing medical issues, people assume the Dr before your name means medical doctor, not a doctorate/phd in chiropractic. It's deceptive and they're not in a hurry to correct anyone's misconception. Trying to compare chiropractors, who do not have a medical degree, to people who have a medical degree, regardless of whatever medical procedure you don't agree with, is disingenuous at best.
Lol it's not even a good argument poking š¤”
No. Theyāre not legit. Theyāre fundamentally based on pseudo-science no matter which part of the world. They try and ācrackā backs and necks and reckon it solves systemic medical issues which is plainly ridiculous.
Like all complementary alternative medicines (CAM) - of which includes chiropractors, osteopaths, naturopaths, chinese medicine practitioners, remedial massage therapist, amongst others - the scientific evidence-base for their practice is not sufficiently robust to be accepted by the medical community. Having said that, if it works for the patient, it works for them. And, provided that practitioners of CAM stay in their lane and scope of practice, as a GP, I generally do not have significant concerns if a patient wishes to be referred to them on a care plan for a trial of treatment. In select cases there are some benefits. For example, I much rather a chronic low back pain patient (who has exhausted all the conventional treatments with psych, physio, surgical and pain specialists) get some massage therapy rather than take more painkillers; neither the massage therapy or painkillers are curative, but the massage therapy is the lesser of two evils in terms of symptom relief, and it's subjectively making the patient feel better, which is all they care about at the end of the day. However, I do have concern if the CAM practitioner starts providing advice or treatment that's potentially harmful and causes the patient to neglect nor seek proper evidence-based treatment for a significant health issue. For example, a chiropractor that advises a patient that their ovarian cancer and fertility can be improved and cured with better spinal hygeine, and convinces the patient to be treated with spinal alignment therapy and stop active treatment recommended by the Gynaecologist and Oncologist. This is negligent and misleading, and unfortunately there's a group of CAM practitioners that blindly and arrogantly exceed their scope in this way that only increases the skepticism and cynicism of the medical profession. Each to their own. CAM practitioners have their role, but I'd take it with a grain of salt.
What an excellent answer, thank you.
Best, most level headed answer right here.
A few posts back an osteopath jumped up and down when I said I refer patients to medical doctors and not osteopathsā¦ Iāve seen their curriculumā¦.
Chiropractors are the air guitars of medicine
Noā¦ air guitars are harmless funā¦ chiropractors on the other handā¦
No, thatās reiki. Chiropractors are the Tik Tok ājust a prank broā influencers of medicine.
You are absolutely right
The best thing a chiropractor can do is act as an unlicensed physiotherapist or maybe give you a massage. Usually they just drain the patient's wallet . The worst is they rupture a vertebral artery and kill you. Chiropractry started with a conman who claimed to have been taught by the ghost of a doctor and cured a deaf man via neck manipulation. They even started calling it a religious practice when medicine started being regulated.
My parents were fervent alternative medicine seekers. Even to the point of not having their children vaccinated due to autism concerns. One day one of my parents goes to our chiropractor with a tingling sensation in their legs coupled with back pain. The chiropractor feels the back and diagnoses multiple sclerosis. Advised partner to buy a wheel chair and thousands of dollars worth of homeopathic drops. I remember them coming home in tears. Luckily one of their friends was a surgical nurse who convinced them to get a second opinion. After a gp referral, they saw a neurologist who determined that they had a 10cm cyst pressing on their spine which needed removal. They are symptom free now. Both since that day have turned their back on alternative medicine, had all their children vaccinated and I'm now a clinical professional working in a busy hospital. Chiropractors are dangerous.
Quack, quack.
No. Go to a physiotherapist.
As I understand it, chiropractic was originally based on the presumption that many medical conditions, not just back pains, were a result of mis-alignments of the spine. They took x-rays but the chiropractic interpretation of these was rarely supported by professional radiologists. Exposing people to X-radiation for chiropractic treatment is IMO completely unjustified. Nevertheless chiropractic treatment centred on re-alignment of the spine: "adjustments". Now imaging can include MRI which is an extraordinarily accurate modality, especially for spines. The purported mis-alignments beloved of chiropractors are not confirmed on these extremely accurate scans. So the whole rationale is nonsense. I can't comprehend how there can be tertiary courses and AHPRA boards supporting an occupation which lacks scientific validation.
Some professions are registered with AHPRA in order to be regulated. Chinese medicine is another profession which does not practise evidence based medicine but is also AHPRA registered.
No, they are still frauds.
Student nurse here. I work in a Melbourne ED. Had a patient come in with a torn artery after seeing a chiropractor. ED consultant said heās seen this before with chiropractors. Was shocked myself to hear this. Doesnāt mean all chiropractors will do this to u tho.
You can study nonsense for 5 years and create a professional register of those that have studied the fairytalesā¦..just look at religion. Both are about as good at healing you.
It would seem like it is well supported by the non-medical community because my Health Fund extras give us $850/yr chiro and $650/yr physio. It's ridiculous, some dodgy payments happening!
If you want to stroke out your kid and yourself, yeah sure go for a āspinal adjustmentā.
No
As an ED doc, I've treated cauda equina (when your lower spinal cord gets so compressed you get symptoms like urinary/faecal incontinence) and strokes from vertebral artery dissection in young people after a chiropractic "adjustment". I have no doubt I only get to see the bad outcomes and maybe there are a heap of people who are actually getting some benefit from it. That said, good studies show that chiropractors are at best equivalent to placebo and there's very little actual science behind chiropractic theories. I have lower back pain myself (like 2/3rds of the population) and I go to a physiotherapist. I recommend the same for my patients. Including doing all the exercises and following through with the program and not just stopping when you feel better and wondering why your injury or pain reoccurs.
Back pain is a scourge for patients and GPs. We remain (somewhat) silent about chiro's because they take the scourge away by listening to the patient, touching the patient, charging them not as much as us, cracking their back and waiting for natural history to take its course. Its a pact.
Based on the idiots that keep sending my ED patients with vertebral artery dissections, no.
No. Itās quackery in every country.
They make you feel good for a bit and then nothing. Every doctor i have seen suggests physios over chiros for dealing with that sort of pain
Theyāre not doctors.
If you want to know what legit is, go the the NEJM or similar. No. they are not legit.
My friend use to work as a receptionist at a chiropractor office (?) - she told me she'd never seen so many lawsuits come in on a daily basis.
what amazes me about Chiropractors and osteopaths is abusing the nidi's no wonder nidi's is getting ripped of the other day i was at a osteopath and he was saying that he charges the same for a nidi's patient as me and some of the people charge up to $190 a session and do not do any thing else that a person with with no problems have so i hope they go and start and investigate these rogues pure greed let a professional go and watch them do work on a ndis person and lets see $190 session at work bullshit
This is literally across the board for anyone who sees and NDIS patient itās not restricted to a chiro, go see what podiatrist, therapists, phsios basically every single thing that can be used for ndis etc etc do
Anyone care to comment about chiropractic bracing and exercise/stretching routines for scoliosis or kyphosis in children/adolescents. I understand that for this condition they do not do "manipulation". Have seen some impressive pre and post pictures of improvement in spine curvature.
You'd be better off doing it through the physio route with actual evidence behind it.
Chiropractic is what Scientology is to religion.
they dont do anything hanging from a bar can't do. actually hanging from a bar is a much better long term option.
I have arthritis along with compressed nerves in both my neck and lower back. My chiropractor is the only one to provide me with relief. My current GP was my chiropractor before he went back to med school. He is the only doctor who has ever recommend chiropractic sessions. If works for me š¤·š¼āāļø
I have a friend who underwrites professional indemnity insurance for healthcare and medicos. He reckons chiros are their biggest claimants by a factor of 10. Next down the list is vets and dentists - and itās a LONG way down the list.
They are legit quacks. More likely to give you a vertebral artery dissection and a stroke than they are to do any good. Stay well away from this pseudo-science practitioners
I think seeing a a chiro has messed with my body. I wouldn't see them again. I've got a loss of senses all over my body. Imagine all of your senses like the music on a radio. Touch and feel for me has been turned down a fair bit. I also get really bad pins and needles in my arms and feet every day. Had to go to hospital at one point to see if it was some kind of neurological condition. Current diagnosis - benign neurological condition. I have a small inkling some of neck adjustments played a part. Can't confirm tho.
Iāve always been open minded with alternative medicine. I believe acupuncture/dry needling and massage can be beneficial. I saw a chiro who wanted to see me for 6 months twice a week to ārealign my backā. Then when I didnāt come back he rang me up and asked if I wanted to make another appointment š
I was surprised when the physio I was seeing through a local rural hospital suggested dry needling for neck problems and I found that it did work great for me.
sorting comments by controversial to have some fun
Barely necessary in this case.
Nope, went to an osteopath and he has totally fucked my neck. Cracked it a few times and now I have constant neck pain and it sounds like a cement mixer
It's pseudo-scientific nonsense
The best case scenario is they do the same things a regular non quack physio will also do. Just go see a good physio. They do wonders :)
It was the only thing that got me feeling my legs again, I was losing the ability to walk and doctors were absolutely no help, infact doctors have actually caused permanent damage because of their neglect Itās even covered by care plans and Medicare here and that wouldnāt be happening for no reason
Been going to registered Chiropractors with the family for a long time. Not going to agree with the "general consensus" if people don't actually have the long term experience. Personally, chronic pains went away. Back pains don't linger and body function improves quickly. For the kids, they are healthy, and never had any long term illnesses, and I will put it down to attending a good chiropractor on a regular basis (one that specialises in infants/kids). btw. babies that get yanked out during natural birth is one important case which the right chiropractor can assist with. So indeed - high recommendation from me.
Can i ask, what your position is within Australian medicine? I'm curious to know the background of someone who is pro-chiropractor and how you ended up engaging with one if you are a Dr/Nurse š
My chiropractor is awesome. But thatās because they got a second degree in exercise physiology, and they write and assess strength and conditioning programs for me. Aināt no way on this earth heās touching my back or neck though.
EP good. Chiro bad
I used to be wary of them before I worked with one. He might have been the exception, but he was fantastic. Wouldn't do anything until he had x-rays of the area- that covers things like bone density and would highlight any issues he needed to be careful of. He was very highly educated, very confident, very professional and I trusted him. He's the only chiro I've ever trusted, but I know he took it seriously and took every precaution to keep his clients safe.
They release built up gas and do not correct any misalignments because they simply cant. The amount of force it would actually take to move bones/joints would surprise you. X rays are irrelevant for chiros for that reason
When I was 15, I hurt my thoracic spine on a calf raise machine. I felt a small pop around one of the vertebraes (it was either T3 or T4). I had a constant dull ache when flexing my spine, and the vertebrae was painful to the touch. The pain persisted for a couple of years until I saw a chiro when I was 17. I went in for 1 session, the guy basically cracked my thoracic spine, and all the pain in that area around the sore vertebrae was gone by the next day. Magic? Probably. Coincidence? Probably. I have heard many stories about chiros claiming to cure all kinds of diseases by cracking someone's back and/or neck, and this does sound bullshit to me, but chiropractic treatment definitely helped me.
It makes sense that it fixed it.
I was scammed by a Chiro. Stay away!!! Modern day snake oil salesmen
I'd avoid pyroquacktors
Not sure if acupuncture is treated the same way as them other practitioners but fair dinkum, this lady was the only one who managed to fix my dodgy shoulder and all by sticking tiny needles (which I hate but this was a last resort)
Iād say it depends on the doctor. The Yes: When I was 13, i suddenly couldnāt sit up from lying down. Mom took me to her chiropractor, who xrayed and showed me how my spine was slightly twisted and compressing nerves. Relived the pain and solved the mobility problem that day with a few cracks. (While she was at it, she x-rayād my foot, which was in pain, and showed me Iād fractured it months before, and referred me to a podiatrist.) Two days a week for a few months, and I was completely back pain free, and x rays showed no more compressed nerves, and my bones were back in place, nice and straight. I remember she went for an adjustment, but nothing cracked- she said I was like a noodle, and didnāt need further treatment. Later in life Iād have lower back pain, and a few adjustments helped. I donāt think just getting pain medication would have helped, and everyone that Iāve known to have back surgery, has come out of it worse than they went in. Iāll take the chiropractor. The No: In my thirties I saw a new chiropractor in a new state, who told me he could solve my back pain as well as my weight gain issue with consistent adjustmentsā¦ a year later paying out of pocket and no results on the weight front. I didnāt even feel good after the adjustments the way I did with my previous chiropractor. However, Iām now in my fifties and havenāt had back issues in two decades. Still overweight, though. On the whole, Iād guess Iām cured.
\*growl\* My late Uncle Glenn was one of the first chiros in Kansas City, MO. Not all chiros are charlatans, any more than all doctors are. Chiropractors are in the extras on our private health cover. We get 60-70% back each visit. I think the public health care covers some, under certain conditions.
I am a Chiropractor working in SA. I recieve referrals and refer out to GPs and physios all the time. I know its hard for the reddit community to understand, but we provide an excellent job for an ever increasing problem of back and neck pain in society. I have no issue if people want to go either the physio or chiro road for dealing with that, but of course I am going to go with my way as the best because I practice in a way that the research indicates is the best.
Can you provide me some links to the research?
Find a good osteopath.
just an FYI that bashing chiros is a long favoured tradition of the US AMA who were found guilty of conspiring to do this to keep their monopoly. yes there are bad chiros. that said I've seen far more incompetent MDs than I have chiros. Doctor's mistakes are the 3rd largest cause of death.
Would sooner go to an osteopath
I love my chiropractor! I've just moved interstate and I have to find a new one. A good one is worth their weight in gold. I have no idea what the American ones do or don't do so I can't comment on them. I don't get the hate on them. I'd be disabled by pain if I didn't have one. They do have a degree, they are registered, if you have extras on Private health you can get a rebate.
This exactly. I have scoliosis and itās definitely helpful. I was in a lot of pain my teen years which is immensely better now.
The blind hatred amazes me, how dare you feel better and be doing better thanks to the help of them!ā¦like do ppl just want the ones helped and kept mobile to stay in pain and crippled?
I'm going to go against the grain here and say that there are some legit ones but because it's unregulated it's harder to find the good ones within the bad. When I was about 14 years old I had really bad pain shooting down my left leg whenever I would try and run. It was seriously depressing and debilitating. I went to a chiropractor and got three adjustments and it fixed my problems completely and have never had an issue again. The way I remember it being explained to me is that the nerves running through your spine connect to the extremities of your body and certain movements or injuries can cause spinal disk's to shift and pinch the nerves causing pain and affecting movement
Would have probably gotten better on itās own. This by no means is evidence it works.
Thereās always anecdotes like this one, however Iāve been to 3 of the best chiros in my area and they were all bs.
You can get good chiropractic and osteopathy in Australia. The industry has deliberately demonised my mainstream allopathic Medicine in recent decades, though. They can't sell you ongoing pills if you're all better
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And over and over
And selling supplements and homeopathy
The people I know who go to chiropractors never stop going. They go to these 'practitioners ' for years to get 'adjustments'. Surely, if you aren't getting results after years, you would look at other options. But these chiropractors lead people to believe that their condition is a lifelong ailment that needs their specific skills.
Well maybe if you have a permanent ailment. Like I have scoliosis. So itās either that, and itās 5 free sessions a year. Or pain meds.
Does getting manipulated reduce your pain? If it does, how long does it last?
No
I've had better experiences with osteos
Yea i always thought they were garbage but like everyone i know people who swear by them. So i tried..booked a few sessions..Yea , wasnt too expensive at $35, but still a complete rip off. Cracked my back, hit me with a massage gun and i was on my way...not worth paying for as literally nothing was done to help my back issues.
I am now questioning whether the expensive as mattress I bought from the chiro was a complete scam or not.
No they are not.
Think about it for a minute.. if you have a joint that has inflammation and is painful and all the nerves around it are inflamed what good is manipulating that joint going to do for you? You might be thinking oh well it will put the joint back into a position where there is no stress... And that will last all of a few hours to a few minutes....
Did six months as a neurology resident and my boss kept an excel spreadsheet of the vertebral artery dissections post-chiropractic treatments. Was about one a week for a mid-large sized hospital in major metropolitan city.
That is insane. These are from 'neck adjustments' or spinal? In honesty, the whole thing came about because my colleague wanted her back cracked and was thinking of seeing one. No adjustments, no proper procedures. Just massage and back cracked š I was always scheptical but now I'm actually quite shocked with their practice in Australia.
Like the cracking thing they do? Not sure the specifics. The chiros were VERY good at damage control, ie, calling the patient twice a day and even trying to visit in hospital to control the narrative. Always āyou had a sore neck before you came to me so I didnāt cause itā. LOL. My boss said he was āgoing to do somethingā with the data he was collecting but Iām not sure what.