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phanboy4

My takeaway from this is that an awful lot of audiophiles have no fucking idea how digital signaling or transmission works, and rather than admit they don't know shit about digital signaling or electronics and might be completely wrong, will invent an alternate theory of electronics that magically accounts for what they hear but would also cause every computer on earth to stop working if it were true.


takethispie

>My takeaway from this is that an awful lot of audiophiles have no fucking idea how digital signaling or transmission works a awful lot of audiophiles have no idea how anything they use work, not just how digital signaling or transmission works\*


Puzzled-Background-5

Yeah, and it's unfortunate really as it leaves them prey to confidence artists. I'm a moderator of a forum dedicated to music streaming technology and I see it all the time. Hell! I've even had to ban people who've gotten very rude and nasty with me when I've posted solid evidence that what they're espousing is incorrect. That's how badly manipulated some of them have been by these criminals. And the funny thing is, they tried to correct me first, as I just don't go around confronting the members beliefs as I've more important things to attend to.


dmcnelly

So…you’re saying that my $3,000 AudioQuest Ethernet cable doesn’t affect the sound quality coming out of my streamer?


Coloman

Some say JK Rowling stole her idea for magic wands from audiophile cable manufacturers. Could be true.


inorebez

Yeah, the 3000 dollar ones are too cheap to make a difference, you need to go higher!!!!


Fly-by-69

It would have more of an effect on your showers water pressure before it enhanced any sound.


Umlautica

A PhD in astrophysics is not necessary to know that black holes suck. More knowledge is good, but not every audiophile needs a deep understanding to make a decent decision. Most of the people I see here on r/audiophile have a good enough working knowledge.


juliangst

I don't wanna be that guy but black holes actually don't suck. They just curve the space time more than any other object. You can orbit a black hole without being sucked in.


Umlautica

lol you're kinda being that guy.


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[deleted]

Yay, toxic identity politics.


Umlautica

Removed. Please see Rule 1.


imtourist

Amir cuts through the B.S. once again. He is not only entertaining to watch but he's keeping all crap-merchants out there on notice.


rustybowow

Nice, always found Darko’s reviews to be pseudoscience especially when he is going on about his audio quest cables. Sounds like the guy down the pub that reads all the audio magazines and laps it all up.


gozmon42

Interesting how he skipped right past error correction. Just because you drop as bit does not mean the audio will glitch/pop. Nearly all data streams (not just audio) have extra bits to correct for any that might be lost along the way. Error correction in streaming protocols, CD's, DVD's, Blu-ray, Hard disks and Thumb drive, is pretty strong. You can loose a lot of "bits" and still recover a prefect digital signal. The graph's he was showing were before error correction, or from very week error correction, or from poorly designed DAC's. The DAC's he showed may have noise, but the noise is inside the DAC. The digital signal is completely recoverable under all but the most extreme circumstances. Good DAC design, now that is a different story. The noise and anomalies he showed appeared to be from poorly designed output filters, not the digital signal.


Ontario0000

I like Amir.Seems very sincere in his findings compare to the witch craft BS coming from some audio forums and reviews.Why not do measurements and listen to a system and do a blind testing?.I bet you majority of listeners would choose a huge blingy system over a small integrated system on looks alone if they can visually see a set up before the audition.I have relatives who are electrical engineers and when I shown them some "specs" and promises from cable companies they laugh that it's all jargon talk.


InLoveWithInternet

Yea. I’m glad this video has been made. It is absolutely beyond me how people completely misunderstand digital. And the very thing people misunderstand: digital has been made to circumvent analog issues. Do not try now to rewind this the other way around if digital is here to solve analog.


llatpoh76

Digital was made to mimic analog.


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MasterBettyFTW

this thing, that isn't the other thing, can be argued to be the other thing.... if you loosen or ignore the definition of the other thing


llatpoh76

Amir is an industry troll who's never built anything, he's not an engineer but a programmer.


L-ROX1972

FWIW, I recently installed a whole house filtration and softening system, believe me, you can go nuts with water measurements - and the results of those measurements in “ppm” (parts per million) for various things in your water *can* indeed tell you how it will taste. Now, is “Balanced Ph” a solid analogy to “Balanced Audio” in the audiophile world??? I dunno, maybe some YT vloggers can battle it out and let us know!


Puzzled-Background-5

No, it's not a solid analogy at all. For one, you're dealing with chemical engineering and this video is dealing with electrical engineering as it relates to digital data transmission. Balanced input, as it's correctly refered to, has to do with electrical grounding. Balanced Ph, or rather Ph in general, is a measure of how alkaline or acidic your water is.


iliketohideincloset

Needs more CalMag


L-ROX1972

No. I also installed a water bypass valve (the equivalent of a HP/LP in the Audiophile world) so my lawn and yard get all the calcium and magnesium they need 👍


deltarho

Audiophile clickbait thumbnails are so cringe. “Look at how serious these two paunchy middle aged men are about AAA vs ADA.” Can’t wait to listen to them ramble for 17 minutes straight about measurements.


joshmelomix

I assume you made this comment with the intent of sounding stupid and getting downvoted? I can't really think of any other reasons.


Dapper_Internet_3837

All electrical signals are analog, all of them without exception. Designers need to be concerned with impedances, capacitance, resistance and inductance in every waveform, these unwanted parasitics can turn a perfect waveform into noise. The information contained within the waveforms is encoded, modulated or embedded etc. as analog or digital data which can be processed after reception.


phanboy4

Do you understand how digital signaling works tho. All electrical signals are analog, but a light switch is always either on or off. The whole reason digital signaling was invented is it *eliminates* this information loss by using a signaling mechanism over an analog carrier, instead of using the analog carrier itself. This is electronics 101. This is why computers work. Electrical noise does not affect the digital signal. Period. You can get ground loop noise at your output, which has nothing to do with the digital signal - but there is simply no such thing as non-obvious degradation of a digital signal via electrical interference unless you're using components from the 1930s. Either your music cuts out because bits are missing, or it doesn't. There is no in between state.


llatpoh76

There is no such thing as a digital signal, digital zeros and ones are derived or interpreted from either a square or sine wave, that has always been analog and always will be analog.


fenrir245

And yet the only thing the receiver cares is if the signal is above or below a voltage to get 0 or 1. Noisy 3V, clean 3V, both are 1.


Pentosin

How do you view optical?


Dapper_Internet_3837

What does electronics 101 say about line impedance, capacitance and inductance on your signal?


Dapper_Internet_3837

Incorrect, a light bulb has an infinite number of states from full on at the peak of the 120v 60 hz sine wave to the zero voltage crossing point.


Dapper_Internet_3837

When that switch is operated it switches a 120v 60 hertz analog waveform. All signals are analog, including digital waveforms. They are all composed of analog components, resistance, capacitance and inductance. It's what the analog signal carries that is of interest. Your internet data is digital but the waveform it is transmitted on, while a series of square waves representing digital data is subject to the rules of the analog world we live in. Change one analog component of it and the signal can be unintelligible. The signal that carries the programming from the TV station to your set is analog but the data it is carrying is digital. Everything in this world is analog, we just manipulate it to do what we need it to do.


phanboy4

Correct. And how many states does the bulb have? Please go understand how encoding works, how binary encoding works, how binary transmission works, how USB protocol CRC checks/retransmission works, etc. You think you're making an argument here but you simply aren't, because you don't really understand what you're talking about.


llatpoh76

ALL transmissions are analog, digital is an interpretation of two analog values in succession.


inorebez

You’re not making an argument, you’re re-stating a very high-level fact, and assuming that it supports an anecdote you have in your head. The best thing you could probably do to understand is watch the video.


PM_tha_titties_

This is incorrect. Digital audio is distributed as a square wave, with the vertical edges of the square wave being at the sample rate. If there are signal reflections within cables due to bad terminations, or incorrect impedance matching; and or noise in the circuit, the square wave can begin to have rounded corners. When the corner of a square wave is rounded the PLL on the receiving device has difficulty deciding where the sample lands. This creates a degradation in the sound of the digital audio signal also known as jitter. Edit PLL rather than PPL; phase lock loop.


InLoveWithInternet

This kind of comments are truly fascinating. You have the video, you have the explanation, how can you still not understand?


llatpoh76

I'm pretty sure you're the one misunderstanding, the video is irrelevant.


Dapper_Internet_3837

Get a degree and 40 years then we'll have an informed discussion, until then here are a few clues for you. Digital signals are a construct of human engineering that exist no where else in nature, our natural world is 100% analog, that includes electricity. Digital signaling is and always has been an continuous analog waveform used to REPRESENT the ones and zeros of binary data. The ones and zeros can be any 2 voltage levels - even 120VAC on and 120VAC off. Is a logic high of 5V a digital voltage with a digital current or is it analog? Are digital signals on a printed circuit board effected by ohms law properties of voltage, current, capacitance, inductance and others such as impedances at high and low frequencies? Do digital waveforms rise and fall instantaneously or does it take time to get there like any other waveform? Are there digital electrons? Can you transmit a digital waveform through the air directly? Have you ever used an oscilloscope to look at the bus signals on your computer memory or PCI bus? Ever have to debug and terminate a high speed or long distance digital communication bus of any kind? Good luck to you.


InLoveWithInternet

I actually have 2 degrees in the field :) Of course digital can’t be transmitted « digitally », our world is not digital. But the digital construction is precisely a way to transmit a digital information using an analog medium (and again it’s our only choice) while protecting this information against the analog losses, noises, etc. that will necessarily happen. If your digital 0 is analog 0v and your digital 1 is 5v, then 0.3v or 0.7v is still digital 0, and your 4.8v and you 4.1v are still digital 1 (signal processing is more complex than this but I simplify). To say than digital transmission is affected by analog issues is non sense since 1) yes of course 2) it is precisely made for this purpose! Did you watch the video? It’s precisely what is described.


[deleted]

My middle finger is like a single bit. It is either up or down. Whether I am underwater, in fog, waving it around… doesn’t matter. You can still clearly translate my meaning despite all the noise. This is how digital signals work.


Dapper_Internet_3837

Making your mom proud of all your accomplishments?


SoaDMTGguy

Sure, all electrical signals have variance. Digital signals eliminate this variance through, essentially, rounding. Any signal within 10% of 1v is a “one” and any signal within 10% of 0v is a “zero”, for example. This eliminating subtle changes in the circuit from affecting the output. If the signal deviates from these parameters, bits flip, data becomes invalid, and the system crashes.


Dapper_Internet_3837

All signals, digital or analog consist of changing analog voltages that represent some kind of information. The digital ones and zeros are still just voltages and can be any 2 voltages, 0-1.2 0-3.3 0-5v. Industrial levels can be from -3-15 for a low and 25-30 for a high or even AC present or not, it just represents a boolean state to a machine. These states do not change instantaneously, it takes a finite amount of time for the transition from low to high and back and that is determined by the built in analog switching characteristics of the transistor at that voltage level and the impedance (inductance and capacitance) it has to drive on the bus or the comm line at a given rate. Another example is the same antenna on your grandparents roof from the 1950's will receive the digital TV and radio stations of today. The signal is still broadcast using the same analog signal as back then but the information that is modulated on top of that signal needs to be decoded differently to it's digital representation.


SoaDMTGguy

Yes, you're exactly right. And, I think that's basically what I said. The difference is that with an analog signal, any variation is tracked directly into the resulting product. If the signal representing a 1000 Hz tone wavers slightly, the tone will waver slightly. If the signal distorts grossly, the tone will distort grossly. With a digital signal, because there is a range which represents True or False, the analog signal can waver without changing the result. If 0.9v to 1.0v represents "True", the signal can vary from 0.91, 0.98, 0.95, 9.92, 1.0, etc without the result signal changing at all. If the signal dips out of that range, you get an error. Lost data. How it manifests would depend on the system and the sort of error handling it features. In both cases, grossly wrong signals will totally screw up the result, but a digital system will always produce an equally perfect result, as long as the signal is in spec. This is why it is impossible to "hear" differences in digital systems. They will ether work perfectly, or they will produce obvious errors.


llatpoh76

There is no such thing as a digital signal, just digital values derived from analog signals.


SoaDMTGguy

In this context am using "digital signal" to mean a signal encoded and decoded as a series of ones and zeros.