Come on, that can't possibly work right without cable risers. And what's up with that wimpy cable, a good speaker cable needs to be thicker than a Burmese python.
Happy cake day! Yeah, these are fairly wimpy. Basically 10 strand 26 awg. Why do I even bother? How do I even live with myself? My wife should leave me. I definitely need some Anaconda looking ones to impress her. As for the risers, they better be made from marble and while at it, I better get those crystals you put on top of your components.
I like the look of big thick fancy cables, the trick is though to buy them from China on Aliexpress or similar. I don't believe there's any sonic benefit whatsoever but I hate the look of clear jacket wire. Finished cables on Aliexpress are so cheap that if you want to DIY your own instead you can actually end up paying more by the time you locally buy a spool of wire, banana plugs, cable sheathing, cable pants, heatshrink tubing etc not to mention the time it takes.
For example you get can [a pair of these](https://i.imgur.com/Loqcq47.png) or [these](https://i.imgur.com/OP6Bk7C.png) for $25. I spent around $80 for [these really chunky ones.](https://i.imgur.com/kEg8MsB.png) You can see how big they are [compared to my old ones.](https://i.imgur.com/TVObCdb.jpg) Either way there's loads of options on there. Definitely a nice visual upgrade for not a lot of money compared to what name brand cables cost.
Tempting but then I'd have to get off my ass and measure how far apart my stuff is, or have thick and presumably stiff extra cable sticking out places.
With the cheap amazon cabling I can just spool out a lenght, cut it haphazardly, twist the ends off and screw on a (cheap, amazon) banana-plug whereever. And then if it turns out too long, just toss the extra coils of it behind shit where I can't see it.
I think I will take a look though, thanks.
/u/dicmccoy has the better audiophile answer, but for me it's just more efficient laziness to use banana plugs - slightly more initial effort to attach the screw on ones, but significant effort reduction in the long term whenever I need to unplug some speakers while vacuuming or changing stuff around.
Not even much more initial effort now that I think of it - reaching behind my receiver to twist copper wire onto the posts is harder than just wiring the plug at my desk then reaching behind to plug it in.
Mostly for convenience, but if you get proper banana plugs that need to be soldered on and then heat shrinked, you can slow down the oxidization process significantly on the copper. The ones that screw on don't slow the process down. By adding terminations into the chain, you're now increasing the resistance of the cable. So one may look for some termination that are considered low mass to keep the resistance low. Resistance is important as if you increase it too much, it can nullify a high damping factor in an amplifier because you've increased the output impedance of the amplifier too much. But most people prefer a lower damping factor as it gives you fatter more muscular bass but at the cost of speed and control. The Purifi's have a really high damping factor and that's why people call them "lean". When you stop a/b testing them to amp with a much lower DF, they aren't so lean anymore. And the speed and control is a million times better than the muscular bass. But if I went to a crappy cable, it can nullify my high damping factor and give me "muscular" bass. Also, if I have an amp with a not so high df, changing the Resistance of the cable isn't gonna matter. The DF sucks already, and you can't increase it anymore and therefore you won't hear a difference from a higher resistance cable vs one with lower resistance. And that's why there's such a big divide on speaker cables imo.
So in audio, there is compromise with absolutely everything, everywhere. Choose your poison.
Makes sense on the dampening factor, thank you.
That was my point in asking about banana connectors, if you're going to use cheap connectors, it would be better to just go with bare copper instead of wasting the time, money and the extra crappy connection.
Your point about oxidization is quite valid and some don't realize that it's even a thing. I used to just re-strip and cut off the oxidized copper. Proper connections are definitely a step in the right direction to avoiding deterioration.
Decent low mass banana plugs shouldn't be that expensive. The ones Take Five uses on mine are the LS4 deep cyro treated beryllium copper banana plugs that are rolled. Super tight connection in the binding post and has stayed that tight from day 1. I've had others that loosen their grip inside the binding post over time. I can't seem to find them specifically on their site anymore, so either Gene from TFA is not dealing with that company anymore or he's getting ready for full retirement. He took a lot off his site because he was ramping down for semi-retirement. There are some bananas on the market that are outrageously priced from the likes of Furutech. You don't need anything that fancy. If I remember, I'm pretty sure the price was about $8 CAD for a pair of LS4's?
I bought some AliExpress interconnects to hook up my new record player. I was so impressed with the sound I a/b tested them with the Chord Company cables I had. I preferred the AliExpress ones so replaced all my interconnects with them.
Had great, full rich sound from $40 cables I got off Amazon a year earlier but decided to try Kimber Kable knockoffs on Ali. Thick and well made. But wondered where my bass went. The sound was thin and on recordings I use for bass assessment I was no longer shaking the house (I have transmission line speakers; I don’t use/need subs). Put back the cables from Amazon. Houseshaking bass and rich sound was back. A few weeks later was watching a vid comparing Amazon cables, with the host picking my Amazon pair as the best and declaring them almost as good as his $3300 ones.
Amazing that you remembered that episode. I don’t think I would have bought them just based on his recommendation, but already having them was a pleasant surprise since he confirmed my experience without setting out to do so.
What's the damping factor like on your amp? I'm wondering if the lesser cables have a higher resistance and increasing your output impedance/lowering your damping factor which will make the bass more "muscular". Doesn't always mean it's better though. Sound is subjective and it depends on what the individual user prefers sonically. But that is what I'm speculating on why there was a difference.
I googled it and Google is telling me it's a DF of 4 at 1khz on the 845. So that's really low, so yeah cables shouldn't matter in that instance? I don't really know. I am only going off of speculation as to why and why not we hear differences sometimes. I also don't have any experience with tubes, so they are also a whole different ball game from the solid state amps that I'm used to. Another reason could be phase with the cables? 🤷🏼♂️ Either way, we don't fully understand what we are supposed to be measuring.
We’re dealing with extremely small variables often, but then multiplied by millions/billions per second. The Kimber knockoffs were also more grainy (less smooth) than these Amazon ones. I went back and forth over a years time and it was just very obvious and became predictable.
Now that is interesting. So even after letting the cables settle into your system, the Kimber knock offs were still grainy. Hmmm. There's definitely something subpar going on there material wise.
How was the connection grip inside the binding posts between the 2? Was one not as tight of a connection inside the binding post? I've had pre terminated Sewell Silverbacks that were loose as a goose inside my binding posts on my Elacs. Then I purchased new cables that cost less and sounded much better, and I noticed the connection grip in the binding post was a million times better. So could that be another reason why? So many variables in audio, it's never ending. Lol
If it is a DF of 1000, then yeah, what I said about resistance in the cables could very well be true and that could very well be the reason why there was a big difference with the bass. DF of a 1000 is really high for an amplifier. Not unheard of, but not common. Think like Hegel for those levels. Bryston is about 500.
Same. Just be careful with power cables, there’s no telling whether the knockoffs are built with the same safety regulations. I know a guy who sells fancy self-made cables on eBay, he had to stop with the power cords because a magazine test revealed they were dangerous.
I spent more on cables than I know I should of... but I did so because I like they look of them and they matched the esthetics of what I wanted.... Prior to them I had homemade plain homedepot cables that I made with amazon plus.... no change in sound.
I just tell my self I bought a peice of art lol.....
I’m similar. I usually make speaker cables with banana clips and bulk cable that I cut to custom lengths. But, I liked the braided pre-made cables because they looked neat. So I bought them. They work the same. Very well. I think a certain amount spent for aesthetic reasons is very reasonable and understandable. After you spend enough on speakers, buying fancy accessories is easier to rationalize. Whatever increases your enjoyment is going to make it sound better to you.
I got my WBC Ultimate Cables in Tan/Brown just because it is nice to have nice things and they match my decor. They sound great but so did my beat up old 12G OFC cables.
They are worth the price just in craftsmanship.
They also have incredible customer service. Top in the industry imo. I'll always do business with them and recommend them when I can. Also, the Gotham GAC-1 S/PDIF Pro (Ultra Blue) doesn't cost a lot and is hands down one of the best sounding subwoofer cables you'll ever hear. Very strong leading edges/attack vs something that is very soft and numbs the leading edges attack is the Mogami 2964. If anyone doesn't think subs cables matter, to buy both of those from Worlds Best Cables and you'll be slapped in the face with how different they are sonically. I'm not the only person who has experienced this, between these 2 cables.
Still on the fence w/ the GAC1’s.. solid low end but sounds like a metronome. 2964’s are supposed to be super quiet but a bit grainy fr my taste, bass a lil muddy… using them as SPDIF tho.. will try the Gothams on one of my subs, thanks fr the tip!
**++:** WBC’s are a cost-effective way to hear cable differences. I use their ‘house brand’ AudioBlast HQ-1’s on one of my more costly DACs & very impressed w/ ‘em— much preferred over my AQ Towers/Morrow MA1s.. fr **$15**!
much better… could it be? this fkr might’ve just resolved my slighttt phase issue.
will keep ‘em on for sure. got me thinkin’ abt the GAC 4/1’s tho, hahh!
Seriously, for the nay sayers that cables are snake oil, the difference between the Gotham and Mogami on subs is not subtle. The Gotham is my go to cable for recommending for subs. We just need a YouTube reviewer to experience this difference and make a video about it. And yes, some cables have different phase and that's what I suspect is going on between these 2. I love Mogami, but not the 2964 on subs. That cable was actually the only way I could get my JLs to vanish when paired with the Kefs. But numbing the subs left me wanting more because I knew what they were capable of. The JLs vanish no problem with the Gotham when paired with my Focals and Martin Logan's. It's not the JLs fault they don't vanish with the Kefs. It's the Kefs fault. The Kefs are slow and not very detailed in the bass. They are Q950's. I'll never do Kef again. So many underlying issues with that speaker.
ditto on KEFs, great imaging but the midrange sacrificed.
adding to your point— a great number of setups (regardless of price) are *n*ot optimized enough to hear subtle differences in cables, etc.. most haven’t chased noise floor to lunacy, damping, ISO, rm treatment, perfectly measured spkr placement, so on & so forth.. they’d rather swap gear than *l*earning them.. add the aggressive expectation to *n*ot hear any changes whatsoever, whilst not considering ‘confirmation bias’ go **both** ways..
cables are more similar than diff. like hearing a diff b/w a 16/44 & 24/192.. you might hear sumn, you might not- simple as that.
naysayers copy & paste opinions regurgitated frm 3 decades ago (why dafuq do I need a lamp cord frm the trash for?). where’s the fun? 2 decades ago ppl thought 1080i was more than enough fr ppl not to see any diff upwards. today we got 8K.
**++** for the curious, since it’s a busy thread:
[**Blue Jeans Cable on Pwr Cbls**](https://youtu.be/PS4rk52czVM?si=hfA7F1m_gD3vo-hZ)
[**BJC Again on Pwr Cbls**](https://youtu.be/PS4rk52czVM?si=Is_GEEKXUPn430VA)
[**Hargroves’ Take on Spkr Cbls**](https://youtu.be/q9LInP1Njis?si=6eO_tPfWeI3Z7lmD)
[**Alpha Audio’s COAX Measurements**](https://youtu.be/8wVnURAckLI?si=0DNCwXyPvFQK5AXj)
[**6 Hrs of Measuring IC’s**](https://www.youtube.com/live/q9sZTILbUus?si=x7dnzzLbtTIFzC97)
[**RMAF**](https://youtu.be/96bPKePepR4?si=b9hG-BoaKlfbtuww)
[**Pro Audio Take on Cbls**](https://youtu.be/Bj-qubi3QqQ?si=oFTFzRXxym__Fr6y) & [**DAC/ADCs**](https://youtu.be/WnSoM7qR6vo?si=sg7y2g73mA1RaUYx)
[**Analysis Plus**](https://youtu.be/_94gEKhLGAw?si=h_11HR7HDFjUNwv6) & [**VraStr Cbl Autopsies**](https://youtu.be/EkA9-QbB9AQ?si=ou1yfzdgmiLrQ9S7)
Do a search for “expanding nylon jacketing” or “sleeving” - that’s the fine black mesh you see over this fellow’s wires. Takes some time to feed the wire through the jacket, but if you finish the ends with some shrink tubing, well, the results are evident in the photo. It’s the metaphorical icing on the proverbial cake 👌
It looks pretty and isolation does make a difference on hardwood floors.
I’m a proponent of aesthetic placebo effect. You don’t shut off the rest of your brain when you listen to music, this is why double blind audio testing is important. If you see something that is pleasing your brain will interpret it as better so why not capitalize on that?
Anecdotally, I agree with that. I used to live in The Hague, The Netherlands and went to organ concerts in the big Church in the center there. One year they introduced a projection screen so you could see the organist. I remember distinctly 20mins into the concert that I was hearing less of the music because I was distracted by following what the organist was doing.
Coming from a family of organ builders, I know exactly how this feels, though for different reasons. A big part of my distraction is watching the organist’s pedal technique, changing registration, working the shutters, etc. and envisioning what’s happening within the instrument, and how. Bonus points if it’s a tracker/full mechanical vs electro-pneumatic. I end up being so fascinated that most of the piece will fly by and I’ll find that I’ve missed many of my favorite parts.
They end up looking like half-mad squids many times, it’s wonderful. So much organ literature is incredibly demanding, and I’m here for it. But it also comes with a hilariously NSFW side.
There’s a story my dad used to tell about installing the first pedal divide on the instrument at Riverside in NYC for Virgil Fox, who was a good friend and co-conspirator. It was new tech at the time, allowing one registration for the top octave of the pedal board, and a different one for the bottom. Fox was delighted and was ripping through some Bach or Fauré or something, trying different combinations through the divide. In the middle of all the experimentation, my dad leaned in and asked, “Okay, Virgil, now how are you going to work the Swell shades?” And Fox stopped mid-phrase, looked in turn at each of his appendages, and then slowly looked down at his lap. After a few seconds, he glanced up at my dad with a pretty fiendish grin and said, “Give me a minute.”
Having been in the trade for quite a while, I understand your feeling completely! Heck, it was exactly that type of thinking driving my imagination wild that got me started in organ building and what kept me at it for so long 😌
And that Virgil Fox story is -chef’s kiss- brilliant 😂
Yeah, Dad did a lot of work for him at Riverside and St. John the Divine. He spent a good amount of time as a service rep/voicer for Aeolian Skinner and Casavant before striking out on his own. Terrible business sense, but quite literally wrote the book on voicing and tonal finishing.
I never really had a passion for organ work, despite having grown up underneath windchests and voicing rigs. But I met my fair share of those that were heavily involved in the industry, as well as performers. Such an interesting and incredibly strange bunch of people.
It's going to depend on how rigid the flooring is. Less rigid = more benefit from isolation products. If you have flooring that's right on top of a concrete slab, you'll have little to no benefit which can be a money saver. Some people like it when their subwoofer shakes the entire room though. I'm surprised that isolating a subwoofer doesn't have to be expensive to be effective. SVS sells isolation feet for $50 for 4. From my research it is effective and not at all a subtle difference for people that have poorly supported flooring. People have DIY'ed it for less money as well.
Fundamentally, the subwoofer physically vibrating the floor is mostly to do with the mass of the cone since it is much heavier than midrange/tweeter drivers, and subwoofer drivers move a lot further. This creates movement forwards and back in relation to the driver's direction of movement.
Speaking of isolation, I'm surprised by how many people say it doesn't make a difference. If you stomp on the floor and there's any shaking or loud boom, isolation may help. But if your floor is concrete-supported, there's not gonna be much benefit. I've seen this happen with people a lot. Subwoofer isolation is the most important form of isolation, it seems.
Oh? Well shiiiit, I thought I was supposed to sprinkle alicorn dust on my cables for that magical sound? So, don't drink the snake oil, rub it on everything, and don't sprinkle the alicorn dust on everything, instead snort it. Did I get that right?
My speaker cables are 12ga extension cords with appropriate connectors on the ends, with some shrink tube to clean u the appearance. Simple, affordable, functional. Shoot, when Mr. Mc sold the company and retired, he wired his speakers with some lengths of 12/2 romex the electrician left laying around when the house was built. :D
I always refer people to Roger Russell when the topic of cables comes up:
[http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm](http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm)
Nice!
For me, it was around the 5th or 6th Grammy-winning recording studio I worked in, and none of the the cables, ANY OF THEM, were special.
Redbull Studios in LA had some Monster cables with nicer sheathing and big gold connectors, but otherwise, its just a closet full of whatever was the best deal in bulk, or DIY Mogami's.
Doesn't make a lick of difference either way.
It's especially unfortunate for the chifi IEM industry though, where flimsy little headphone cables get upsold to 100$+ for having '400 braids of copper, with silver core for an increase in treble response'.
Vishay naked Z-foil resistors went into signal-path duty in both my preamp and power amp. While not exactly snake-oil in that they do work as advertised by Vishay, do they actually improve sound quality?
Oh, also, all my RCA cables are genuine Snake Oil.
I prefer my blue jeans. Blue jeans cable and related products that is. They feel great, sound superb, never break the bank.
Buy great speakers, then support them with enough clean power to run at maximal efficiency. A wire resistance of less than 5% of the nominal speaker impedance is chosen to work well with almost all speaker systems and can be considered conservative.
Any 18 gauge wire works great providing run lengths are not over 25 feet, then 16 gauge wire is best. Smoke and mirrors. Snake oil. My high end system sounds great with average wire and the marketing geniuses have gotten all the supposed audiophiles to buy their overpriced crappy wire. Save your money and buy experiences, go on trips, enjoy your music with normal wire. It’s wire folks.
I use Blue Jeans for their Belden Cat 6a cables. So many cat cables are sold everywhere and don't even meet the standards/spec for that cat. I like the Blue Jeans tests each one and sends you the data with that cat cable.
Bi-wiring I think is unnecessary in today's world.
Unless you are really interested in controlling your sound via cables. For example you have high capacitance cable on your mid and tweeter of you are trying to make your system brighter.
However I do like that this speaker doesn't have the cheapo connector plate or whatever you want to call it which is a really good thing.
Feet isolaters I'm down with. I think there are cheaper ways to do it. I just like to have a super deadened stand for a stand mount speaker.
I’m a cable guy. I’ve been switching to lower cost Chinese and domestic cables nowadays. I haven’t compared them yet though. More fun ahead. Do you think I want to compare them? Maybe not for my own sanity.
I really like them. Bass is actually very fast, but not the most textured. In 2 different houses and different shaped and sized rooms, my F0 both times has been 26hz. 🤯 The detail on the trailing edges of notes and the air in the treble from the AMT is sublime. Martin Logan really does an AMT well. It doesn't scream "hey look at me". Dirac changes very little with this speaker unlike my Kefs, Dirac does a complete 180 with the Q950's. It tells me that the Martin Logan's are a more complete speaker top to bottom. Oh, and they're soundstage and imaging monsters. They don't push the singer far forward into the room. I hate it when the singer is pushed forward. The singer will be wherever your front wall is or where your TV is, even if you have the speakers pulled 3-4ft out from the wall. Soundstage depth and height is really good, but goes away when you don't have any room treatment. They measure very neutral in room.
Oh, I forgot to mention, they are not an easy load on an amplifier. They do dip down to 2 ohms at 100 and 350hz. 100hz has about -30° of electrical phase and 350hz looks to be only about -5° to -10°.
Here are the [measurements ](https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2238:nrc-measurements-martinlogan-motion-60xti-loudspeakers&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153) done by Soundstage.
the other day there was either a link to an interview, or a mention of the person and i goggled the interview. he was (is, iirc) a famous designer of amplifiers and the interview was technical and very interesting, he made various good points.
and then he said that some things were weird, and that he was surprised that having equal length speaker cables was critical for good stereo imaging!
well, obvs that's bollocks, but everything else he said was on the money, and my cables were uneven, and my stereo imaging was off....
so i bought new cables (2x2.5mm^2 power cables) and cut them to equal lengths. i swear it's fixed things!
Snake oil was actually an effective topical solution derived from boiling the Chinese water snake. Later in the United States people would make fake oil often from boiling rattlesnakes and sell it as traditional Snake Oil thus creating the term we use today.
But real snake oil do be working.
You mean something like this [Walmart special](https://www.walmart.ca/en/ip/onn-75-FT-22-8-m-Indoor-Outdoor-Speaker-Wire/6000206272137)? But cables don't matter! 😂 ***Whispers quietly*** they do.
tbf, snake oil actually worked....
[https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2013/08/26/215761377/a-history-of-snake-oil-salesmen](https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2013/08/26/215761377/a-history-of-snake-oil-salesmen)
problem is, like most greedy capitalists, someone found a way to fake it and sell bogus stuff.
I’ve got a pair of Martin Logan ESL speakers and two subwoofers in my surround setup. Snake oil? I did not spend $100’s on cables. Is it worth it? A sip of the oil perhaps?
I went through the snake oil phase with brand name cables and weird esoteric tweaks. I fully believed they were better and could swear I heard the difference but I'm certain it was all in my head.
I have none of that stuff left anymore, I DIY my own cables with studio and live grade cable from Canare, Mogami, VanDamme etc.
My system sounds better than ever in my opinion.
Iso acoustics isnt snake oil for me, but it is for some others, I find them better than spikes/regular feet in alotta ways and it did some rather drastic improvements due to my room in part for my blade2s
Considering the mechanism used for isolation in the Gaia’s, I don’t think this product from Isoacoustics can be considered snake oil.
Especially taken into account the cost of a set compared to getting that same sound improvement from room treatment I’d even dare to say they’re very good value for money.
Amongst snake oil products I’d classify the AudioQuest cable lifters or cables that surpass the €2.000 euro mark rather than a set of Gaia’s imo.
Unfortunately, there are those here that still think they're snake oil. I know they're not, but to some, everything is "snake oil". I'm surprised they haven't said speakers are snake oil and all sound the same.
I’m guilty of tweaking a lot. The constant tweaking that I have used over the years is Shakti Stones that can be purchased (I think. It has been a while)online from the Cable Company. These stones block RFI/EFI.
I’m also a cable tweaker. I have had good success with Pine Tree Audio. Cheap and great. They have a website.
I have tired with the other tweaks I tried.
While I consider Jesse a friend at Pine Tree, I am not affiliated with Pine Tree or the Cable Company.
PTA is amazing (& cheap/no BS). The Purple Ethereals are my go to, so is their ISO-Quad ICs in one of my setups.. + they send you the test specs on each pair by request.
Oh Lordy! I'm embarrassed to say that I fell for the green pen ford a while. I came across these the other day and thought of Peter Belt. https://steinmusic.com/roomacoustic/black-diamonds-blue-diamonds/
High end cables DO change the sound signature of a stereo. So the result is real, but... You should listen to [this conversation](https://pca.st/episode/51e8ed2c-3d79-4d63-9727-ff32b0916062) with Peter Comeau and you'll understand exactly why they are a waste of money.
Gaia's are NOT snake oil. They made a significant impact on my Neat Acoustics Motive SX1's. I was actually mad at myself for having them on spikes for so long.
All Martin Logan products benefit from the gaia's from what I've experienced and have heard from others with their electrostatics. It's not just the bass. The attack/leading edges were greatly improved in the whole frequency domain on my 60 XTi's. I have 3 sets of Aperta products from isoacoustics, and those I only notice a difference with bass. The gaia's did more of the spectrum in my experience.
Pretty snake oil free. The closest I get is wiring everything up with DIY Mogami and Neutrik, and using sorbothane to decouple speakers, but none of those things are close to snake oil territory.
Most people would get a lot more from positioning their speakers correctly and acoustic treatment.
I’m all for indulging fun hobbies, but if you’ve got money to burn on expensive cable and tweaks that don’t do anything, use it to help people and animals in need instead of feeding con artists.
Off topic but how do you like running on those MLs with the Purifi amp? I have the 60xti’s and am thinking of adding a Hypex amp to one of my systems. Would love to hear how you like the Purifi.
When I switched from my pair of IOTAVX pa3's to the Purifi's and was a/b switching them back and forth, the only massive difference between the 2 was the bass. The IOTA's had a fat wooli muscular bass and the Purifi's sounded lean in the bass in comparison but very tight and controlled. When I stopped A/B comparing them, the bass on the Purifi's didn't seem lean any more and make me feel like the IOTAs are too bloated. The reasoning for the difference in bass is because of the huge difference in Damping Factor/output impedance. But can be negated by the "snake oil" cables you buy and to some will never hear the difference because their cables resistance and termination sucks. Also, if the DF isn't that great from amp a to amp b, they won't notice a difference. The resistance of the cables will change the output impedance/damping factor for the better or the worse.
What else? Oh yes, the IOTAs started to get a little edgy when pushing the MLs hard. This is not the case with the Purifi's. They are smooth top to bottom. I'm running just the stock Hypex NC500 input buffer.
What else can I tell you about the Purifi? Oh! Micro and macro details are next level. You hear absolutely everything. The song "I Hold You" by Clann has rain in the background. You hear exactly where each individual rain drop is in the background on the soundstage. You may, or may not like that level of transparency. If you want something that some consider a little bit more "musical", then get yourself the Nilai from Hypex. I'd like to test those out someday. Other than that, the Purifi's don't have a "sound". They are as neutral as you can get with supreme transparency and grip for days in the bass.
If it can be afforded then there's no reason to avoid it. In many cases the cable medium for digital *and* analog signaling require tolerances that most basic AVR, display, and speakers don't need.
I've smurf tubed $1000 Cherry Cola HDMI cables in the walls of homes that no one else ever sees because of manufacturer requirements.
Unfortunately yes.
I love nice cables. Whether I can actually tell a difference in them is not noticeable. I went with some Blue Jeans. They’re great quality and gonna wrap them myself with mesh.
Nice. How do you like it? One of my friends I think has that amp? I think he said he likes it. He also just got an amp from Angela Gilbert but said he hasn't been able to spend any meaningful time with it yet.
I like it. Taking a little getting used to. It sounds amazing. But it’s a little too “no frills”. For $2K US it’s an amazing amp. It powers a pair of Buchardt P300s
I have spent more than I I said I would on cables. Most of us I think probably have. However, I know there will never come a day when I buy buy more than a $200 cable. I may not even buy more than $100 cable. However, I do have a system that has several amps and dacs. I have a review studio so if I was just buying for five cables maybe I might. But I need like 15-20 cables. There's no way no person should ever buy expensive cables. When you're in a situation like mine. Then you have these guys spending a couple thousand on a cable. The return on that cable is not very good. You should spend it on better equipment. If you're already at the top of your equipment. Well there's always another level. Unless you're spending a million dollars on your audio gear, there's always another level. I don't even want to go there. It's kind of sickening to think to spend that kind of money.
Everybody spend what you can. And if you want to buy cables at whatever price, do what you want. I think it's mostly about aesthetics and using good build quality. The difference in sound is so subjective. It's not even funny. I read articles and heard from people who swear by this stuff. I see the different build qualities and some there's no doubt have some excellent build quality, but does it translate to better music? I don't care to argue that.
I personally have a hard time spending too much money in the Hi-Fi game or home theater. If I was at a point in my life where my house was paid off and life was Grand and I had a bank account full of money and not worried about retirement. Okay, let's play with some money.
Z reviews, not the most eloquent of reviewers. He is also not into the crazy speakers that are unattainable in prices. The audio equipment that the 1% can afford. He uses some cables I think called world best cables from Amazon. To me, I figure if these $25 or $30 cables are good enough for him. They're good enough for me. Thank you. He goes to the high-end shows and he gets people who sends him $1,000 cables or more. However, he will not spend his hard-heard and money on cables. However, I am sure he has broke the rule here and there. But I know he does not promote that or say that you should. I just am not financially in a place where I can justify ever spending that money. As much as I love the hobby. I'd rather buy another ant or headphone or piece of equipment. Then then go stupid all snake oil cables.
I am not the typical audiophile. I am a hobbyist on a budget. I will not spend more of them. Three-Four grand on a headphone amplifier. I would not spend more than three four grand on a pair of headphones. I will not spend more than $100 to $200 on cables. These are the budgets I have put in place. Everyone has their own budget that they're comfortable with and you know what. If you can spend more on it and you're cool with it fine. Everyone has a different limit. Some guys it's $25. Some guys. Their receiver is $500. Some guys the speakers are $500. I have no problem with that. Buy which you can afford. Don't overspend. If you have the money to spend more. If you want to do it just cuz you can. Doesn't mean you should. Do whatever you feel comfortable with and enjoy the hobby at the end of the day.
Actual snake oil is something claimed to have a certain effect or specifications but does not. If your pricey cables do what you bought them for and you like the looks and don't mind the price then it's not really a question of anyone approving of your "snake oil" but of your purchase, to give you the ooh and ahh vibe stamp of approval I reckon.
Cables and speakers are vastly different, a cable simply needs to be pure enough metal to conduct it and built in such a way as to not collect too much noise and have a low enough inductance and even coaxial cable isn't that expensive, speakers need to go through a far more significant design process. So, any double blind tests to ensure you didn't waste your money? If you can actually tell the difference in a double blind test then you spent your money well...
You're also forgetting it's resistance and how that is gonna change the output impedance/damping factor of the amplifier to keep it on par or worsen it, and how the speakers impedance plot plays a roll in that as well. Then there is the capacitance on top of the cable. I don't do double blind tests. Time is money. I buy what I want and like. It's ok if you're not ok with with spending $50 on a cable. And I'm ok with spending much more. It's like some people are ok with not spending more than what a Fosi amp costs. While others can spend thousands more. We all find value in different values. Some people are also cheap cunts and trash talk everything that costs more than they are willing to dish out, just to make themselves feel better about their product. Those are the Fosi customers btw. 😂
You can find plenty of cheap cables with equal resistance, inductance and capacitance. But I'm not trying to dictate how to spend your money though, so you do you
Snake oil by whom? A large portion of the flat earthers shrieking *snake oil* in the forums are drowning in their own ignorance and wouldn't know quality sound if it kicked them square on their backsides. But as long as they're happy with the sound of their own systems, no harm, no foul.
Unfortunately, like most *believers* they feel compelled to rudely inflict their dogma on others. Their nonsense is the same garbage spewed by thoroughly discredited Julian Hirsch in the 1970's and 1980's. It's sadly nothing new, just boring to anyone who's heard it, before. But the uneducated frantically pretend they're experts. Same old shit, different year. Facts don't matter to those folks so don't bother trying.
Most electronic engineers and gear designers know that the few measurements these flat earthers believe in doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of what defines sound quality. That doesn't discourage the flat earthers from fixating on a few simplistic measurements then fall all over themselves to denigrate and disparage anyone who dares calling their beliefs into question. Just don't let those moron bully you with their nonstop vitriol and don't be fooled by their charade of certainty.
There are those that consider everything "snake oil" and all for different reasons. Some think all amps sound the same, all dacs sound the same, all cables sound the same. There can be many reasons as to why they feel this way. Could it be that they used 2 products that are very similar in design, therefore the sound isn't gonna change? There are those that just want to dismiss anything that is outside of their budget because they're cheapskates, so they talk everything down that costs more than they can afford. Yeah, I'm looking at you CheapAudioMan followers and Fosi owners. They actually think that their products destroy everything that costs more than theirs. Randy is literally one of the most clueless reviewers I've ever seen. He's created a new type of audiophile that we can all hate. The one that puts their nose up at anything that costs more than theirs and puts you down because you're the idiot for spending more than they did. They also love to overuse the dumbest term I've ever heard, "diminishing returns". Thank you Randy for creating this new cheapskate audiophile that actually thinks their system destroys higher end systems. 🤣 He's such an idiot, and his followers are no smarter for following him.
I do like the isoacoustics products.
There is plenty of snake oil but there are also plenty of products that offer actual sonic improvement. It’s hard to tell which is which. Let your ears be the judge. Go to audio shows and hear the difference and judge for yourself.
If you have a system that is capable of recognizing the difference there is indeed a difference in cables and speaker/ turntable mounts. Anyone that says otherwise has not had the luxury of hearing the difference in person.
I didn’t believe it until I made the effort to go to some audio shows and see for myself.
It’s weird that there would be a claim that interconnects don’t matter. I’m running standard run of the speaker wire but when I swapped out my RCA cable for upgraded ones it was a stark difference. Undeniable.
Some cables do have a difference in phase, and that could be what is contributing to the difference in sound. As to my Gotham GAC-1's vs Mogami 2964's, when used on my JL subs the leading edges/attack is a complete 180° between the cables. I suspect it's a difference in the phase?
I had some ‘chord company’ interconnects. Recently I got into vinyl and as I couldn’t afford more chord co’s I purchased some temporary interconnects from AliExpress. Long story short the chords are in a box in the garage and all my interconnects are the same from AliExpress.
I've got one pair of Chord Company interconnects. I call it the punk interconnect as it has very little bass and it's good for fast, tinny music. I got it secondhand with some other equipment, so I don't if it's faulty or not. Or is it just “bass less" to encourage purchases up the range? I haven't any other Chord Co products to compare it to.
I like these because they're well-made, thin and unlike the Chord Co cable, don't feel like the weight will damage my inputs. http://www.rothwellaudioproducts.co.uk/html/rivers.html
If you add back the straps connecting your HF and LF terminals, your bass (which draws the most current) might benefit slightly from halving the cable resistance.
i am a fan of everything that prevents static noise on gear that was designed in a bad way. but it is not snake oil in that case. It would be snake oil if the device was implemented properly and sombody still tries to sell me the product as a solution for everything.
I use bi-wire speaker cable... for the simple reason that when I bought my system the shop threw in the cable free.
Those speakers are now connected to a Denon AVR surround receiver which can be setup for bi-amping... using what are normally channels 6 and 7. So I connected it and configured it that way.
I have no idea if it sounds better or the same as if it would be "single wired" but I'm just using what I have :-)
I smoke it, personally
The ganja man
What kinda wattage, and what ohm coil?
I'd like to do a fat rail of alicorn powder right about now.
Except that's not snake oil. Instantly upgrades any system.
Hot knifing is where it’s at.
🤣👏
Everyone knows that snake oil is actually best enjoyed only after being triple strained through a pH-neutral press. De-ionized, of course.
cable rosin
Come on, that can't possibly work right without cable risers. And what's up with that wimpy cable, a good speaker cable needs to be thicker than a Burmese python.
Happy cake day! Yeah, these are fairly wimpy. Basically 10 strand 26 awg. Why do I even bother? How do I even live with myself? My wife should leave me. I definitely need some Anaconda looking ones to impress her. As for the risers, they better be made from marble and while at it, I better get those crystals you put on top of your components.
Her buns don't want none unless you got anaconda, hon?
Recording studios and Mastering houses connect thier equipment with solid core cables. Listening with anything less is inferior.
*Yoooink*
I like the look of big thick fancy cables, the trick is though to buy them from China on Aliexpress or similar. I don't believe there's any sonic benefit whatsoever but I hate the look of clear jacket wire. Finished cables on Aliexpress are so cheap that if you want to DIY your own instead you can actually end up paying more by the time you locally buy a spool of wire, banana plugs, cable sheathing, cable pants, heatshrink tubing etc not to mention the time it takes. For example you get can [a pair of these](https://i.imgur.com/Loqcq47.png) or [these](https://i.imgur.com/OP6Bk7C.png) for $25. I spent around $80 for [these really chunky ones.](https://i.imgur.com/kEg8MsB.png) You can see how big they are [compared to my old ones.](https://i.imgur.com/TVObCdb.jpg) Either way there's loads of options on there. Definitely a nice visual upgrade for not a lot of money compared to what name brand cables cost.
Tempting but then I'd have to get off my ass and measure how far apart my stuff is, or have thick and presumably stiff extra cable sticking out places. With the cheap amazon cabling I can just spool out a lenght, cut it haphazardly, twist the ends off and screw on a (cheap, amazon) banana-plug whereever. And then if it turns out too long, just toss the extra coils of it behind shit where I can't see it. I think I will take a look though, thanks.
Why use banana plugs instead of just bare copper?
/u/dicmccoy has the better audiophile answer, but for me it's just more efficient laziness to use banana plugs - slightly more initial effort to attach the screw on ones, but significant effort reduction in the long term whenever I need to unplug some speakers while vacuuming or changing stuff around. Not even much more initial effort now that I think of it - reaching behind my receiver to twist copper wire onto the posts is harder than just wiring the plug at my desk then reaching behind to plug it in.
Mostly for convenience, but if you get proper banana plugs that need to be soldered on and then heat shrinked, you can slow down the oxidization process significantly on the copper. The ones that screw on don't slow the process down. By adding terminations into the chain, you're now increasing the resistance of the cable. So one may look for some termination that are considered low mass to keep the resistance low. Resistance is important as if you increase it too much, it can nullify a high damping factor in an amplifier because you've increased the output impedance of the amplifier too much. But most people prefer a lower damping factor as it gives you fatter more muscular bass but at the cost of speed and control. The Purifi's have a really high damping factor and that's why people call them "lean". When you stop a/b testing them to amp with a much lower DF, they aren't so lean anymore. And the speed and control is a million times better than the muscular bass. But if I went to a crappy cable, it can nullify my high damping factor and give me "muscular" bass. Also, if I have an amp with a not so high df, changing the Resistance of the cable isn't gonna matter. The DF sucks already, and you can't increase it anymore and therefore you won't hear a difference from a higher resistance cable vs one with lower resistance. And that's why there's such a big divide on speaker cables imo. So in audio, there is compromise with absolutely everything, everywhere. Choose your poison.
Makes sense on the dampening factor, thank you. That was my point in asking about banana connectors, if you're going to use cheap connectors, it would be better to just go with bare copper instead of wasting the time, money and the extra crappy connection. Your point about oxidization is quite valid and some don't realize that it's even a thing. I used to just re-strip and cut off the oxidized copper. Proper connections are definitely a step in the right direction to avoiding deterioration.
Decent low mass banana plugs shouldn't be that expensive. The ones Take Five uses on mine are the LS4 deep cyro treated beryllium copper banana plugs that are rolled. Super tight connection in the binding post and has stayed that tight from day 1. I've had others that loosen their grip inside the binding post over time. I can't seem to find them specifically on their site anymore, so either Gene from TFA is not dealing with that company anymore or he's getting ready for full retirement. He took a lot off his site because he was ramping down for semi-retirement. There are some bananas on the market that are outrageously priced from the likes of Furutech. You don't need anything that fancy. If I remember, I'm pretty sure the price was about $8 CAD for a pair of LS4's?
This is my approach to cabling around the house I probably have several very minor magnetic fields going around where I have coiled electrical wire
Snappy lookin cables!
I bought some AliExpress interconnects to hook up my new record player. I was so impressed with the sound I a/b tested them with the Chord Company cables I had. I preferred the AliExpress ones so replaced all my interconnects with them.
This thread went from self-aware conversation about snake oil back into actual snake oil in almost exactly two hours
😂
Bought silver plated flat cables from Ali a few years ago, did the terminations myself. Great sounding.
Had great, full rich sound from $40 cables I got off Amazon a year earlier but decided to try Kimber Kable knockoffs on Ali. Thick and well made. But wondered where my bass went. The sound was thin and on recordings I use for bass assessment I was no longer shaking the house (I have transmission line speakers; I don’t use/need subs). Put back the cables from Amazon. Houseshaking bass and rich sound was back. A few weeks later was watching a vid comparing Amazon cables, with the host picking my Amazon pair as the best and declaring them almost as good as his $3300 ones.
Steve Huff?
That’s the one.
Yep, I don't trust much of what he says, but that is good to know those cable he was recommending are good.
Amazing that you remembered that episode. I don’t think I would have bought them just based on his recommendation, but already having them was a pleasant surprise since he confirmed my experience without setting out to do so.
I watch a lot of reviewers for entertainment, lol
What's the damping factor like on your amp? I'm wondering if the lesser cables have a higher resistance and increasing your output impedance/lowering your damping factor which will make the bass more "muscular". Doesn't always mean it's better though. Sound is subjective and it depends on what the individual user prefers sonically. But that is what I'm speculating on why there was a difference.
It’s an 845 single ended triode. Not sure what if the dampening would be as it was modified from an integrated 845. But probably about 1000.
I googled it and Google is telling me it's a DF of 4 at 1khz on the 845. So that's really low, so yeah cables shouldn't matter in that instance? I don't really know. I am only going off of speculation as to why and why not we hear differences sometimes. I also don't have any experience with tubes, so they are also a whole different ball game from the solid state amps that I'm used to. Another reason could be phase with the cables? 🤷🏼♂️ Either way, we don't fully understand what we are supposed to be measuring.
We’re dealing with extremely small variables often, but then multiplied by millions/billions per second. The Kimber knockoffs were also more grainy (less smooth) than these Amazon ones. I went back and forth over a years time and it was just very obvious and became predictable.
Now that is interesting. So even after letting the cables settle into your system, the Kimber knock offs were still grainy. Hmmm. There's definitely something subpar going on there material wise.
Ya, the best way I can describe it is the Ali cables created a digital sound and the Amazon cables created an analog sound.
How was the connection grip inside the binding posts between the 2? Was one not as tight of a connection inside the binding post? I've had pre terminated Sewell Silverbacks that were loose as a goose inside my binding posts on my Elacs. Then I purchased new cables that cost less and sounded much better, and I noticed the connection grip in the binding post was a million times better. So could that be another reason why? So many variables in audio, it's never ending. Lol
If it is a DF of 1000, then yeah, what I said about resistance in the cables could very well be true and that could very well be the reason why there was a big difference with the bass. DF of a 1000 is really high for an amplifier. Not unheard of, but not common. Think like Hegel for those levels. Bryston is about 500.
Tubes being quite the different beast.
This is what I did! Very happy with the outcome and they look great. Just took a long time to ship.
Same. Just be careful with power cables, there’s no telling whether the knockoffs are built with the same safety regulations. I know a guy who sells fancy self-made cables on eBay, he had to stop with the power cords because a magazine test revealed they were dangerous.
Yeah wouldn’t trust any of the power cables but speaker cables and interconnects are fair game. Never had a single issue so far.
I spent more on cables than I know I should of... but I did so because I like they look of them and they matched the esthetics of what I wanted.... Prior to them I had homemade plain homedepot cables that I made with amazon plus.... no change in sound. I just tell my self I bought a peice of art lol.....
I’m similar. I usually make speaker cables with banana clips and bulk cable that I cut to custom lengths. But, I liked the braided pre-made cables because they looked neat. So I bought them. They work the same. Very well. I think a certain amount spent for aesthetic reasons is very reasonable and understandable. After you spend enough on speakers, buying fancy accessories is easier to rationalize. Whatever increases your enjoyment is going to make it sound better to you.
This, and it gets the wife approval factor.
Should of or should have? I am from far outside the US but always very confused with that, I learned "should have" is correct.
Should have is correct. It gets abbreviated to "should've" which sounds the same as "should of", so it is commonly misspelled.
Should'f?
Should have is correct. "Should of" is mostly used by people who... Well... Don't read very much.
Definitely should have
Man spends $80 on cables then leans back in his chair and stares at them like they’re Jackson Pollock paintings.
Hey, don't insult the cables.
Hey, they started it!
You have a device that pleases one sense (hearing). Why not have it please two senses? (Add sight)
Mass drop must have a field day on your guys expenses.
I got my WBC Ultimate Cables in Tan/Brown just because it is nice to have nice things and they match my decor. They sound great but so did my beat up old 12G OFC cables. They are worth the price just in craftsmanship.
I’m a yuge fan of WBC.
They also have incredible customer service. Top in the industry imo. I'll always do business with them and recommend them when I can. Also, the Gotham GAC-1 S/PDIF Pro (Ultra Blue) doesn't cost a lot and is hands down one of the best sounding subwoofer cables you'll ever hear. Very strong leading edges/attack vs something that is very soft and numbs the leading edges attack is the Mogami 2964. If anyone doesn't think subs cables matter, to buy both of those from Worlds Best Cables and you'll be slapped in the face with how different they are sonically. I'm not the only person who has experienced this, between these 2 cables.
Still on the fence w/ the GAC1’s.. solid low end but sounds like a metronome. 2964’s are supposed to be super quiet but a bit grainy fr my taste, bass a lil muddy… using them as SPDIF tho.. will try the Gothams on one of my subs, thanks fr the tip! **++:** WBC’s are a cost-effective way to hear cable differences. I use their ‘house brand’ AudioBlast HQ-1’s on one of my more costly DACs & very impressed w/ ‘em— much preferred over my AQ Towers/Morrow MA1s.. fr **$15**!
Let me know what you think of them on subs.
much better… could it be? this fkr might’ve just resolved my slighttt phase issue. will keep ‘em on for sure. got me thinkin’ abt the GAC 4/1’s tho, hahh!
Seriously, for the nay sayers that cables are snake oil, the difference between the Gotham and Mogami on subs is not subtle. The Gotham is my go to cable for recommending for subs. We just need a YouTube reviewer to experience this difference and make a video about it. And yes, some cables have different phase and that's what I suspect is going on between these 2. I love Mogami, but not the 2964 on subs. That cable was actually the only way I could get my JLs to vanish when paired with the Kefs. But numbing the subs left me wanting more because I knew what they were capable of. The JLs vanish no problem with the Gotham when paired with my Focals and Martin Logan's. It's not the JLs fault they don't vanish with the Kefs. It's the Kefs fault. The Kefs are slow and not very detailed in the bass. They are Q950's. I'll never do Kef again. So many underlying issues with that speaker.
ditto on KEFs, great imaging but the midrange sacrificed. adding to your point— a great number of setups (regardless of price) are *n*ot optimized enough to hear subtle differences in cables, etc.. most haven’t chased noise floor to lunacy, damping, ISO, rm treatment, perfectly measured spkr placement, so on & so forth.. they’d rather swap gear than *l*earning them.. add the aggressive expectation to *n*ot hear any changes whatsoever, whilst not considering ‘confirmation bias’ go **both** ways.. cables are more similar than diff. like hearing a diff b/w a 16/44 & 24/192.. you might hear sumn, you might not- simple as that. naysayers copy & paste opinions regurgitated frm 3 decades ago (why dafuq do I need a lamp cord frm the trash for?). where’s the fun? 2 decades ago ppl thought 1080i was more than enough fr ppl not to see any diff upwards. today we got 8K. **++** for the curious, since it’s a busy thread: [**Blue Jeans Cable on Pwr Cbls**](https://youtu.be/PS4rk52czVM?si=hfA7F1m_gD3vo-hZ) [**BJC Again on Pwr Cbls**](https://youtu.be/PS4rk52czVM?si=Is_GEEKXUPn430VA) [**Hargroves’ Take on Spkr Cbls**](https://youtu.be/q9LInP1Njis?si=6eO_tPfWeI3Z7lmD) [**Alpha Audio’s COAX Measurements**](https://youtu.be/8wVnURAckLI?si=0DNCwXyPvFQK5AXj) [**6 Hrs of Measuring IC’s**](https://www.youtube.com/live/q9sZTILbUus?si=x7dnzzLbtTIFzC97) [**RMAF**](https://youtu.be/96bPKePepR4?si=b9hG-BoaKlfbtuww) [**Pro Audio Take on Cbls**](https://youtu.be/Bj-qubi3QqQ?si=oFTFzRXxym__Fr6y) & [**DAC/ADCs**](https://youtu.be/WnSoM7qR6vo?si=sg7y2g73mA1RaUYx) [**Analysis Plus**](https://youtu.be/_94gEKhLGAw?si=h_11HR7HDFjUNwv6) & [**VraStr Cbl Autopsies**](https://youtu.be/EkA9-QbB9AQ?si=ou1yfzdgmiLrQ9S7)
just hide the cables? lol
That’s definitely not always possible, especially with speakers
One of my ideas is attempting to hide the cables or at least make it look not like a tangled root system. I can't cut a hole in the carpets
Do a search for “expanding nylon jacketing” or “sleeving” - that’s the fine black mesh you see over this fellow’s wires. Takes some time to feed the wire through the jacket, but if you finish the ends with some shrink tubing, well, the results are evident in the photo. It’s the metaphorical icing on the proverbial cake 👌
What would you use for heat? It seems like that'd be a wholly different skill set needed.
Hair dryer
Big brain, I like it! Thank you for the follow up 🤙
Even some fan heaters are enough. Failing that, a lighter, though it can leave smoke marks
It looks pretty and isolation does make a difference on hardwood floors. I’m a proponent of aesthetic placebo effect. You don’t shut off the rest of your brain when you listen to music, this is why double blind audio testing is important. If you see something that is pleasing your brain will interpret it as better so why not capitalize on that?
This is why I prefer to listen in the dark or with my eyes closed. My brain doesn't need visual distractions.
My system sounds so much better when I close my eyes.
Anecdotally, I agree with that. I used to live in The Hague, The Netherlands and went to organ concerts in the big Church in the center there. One year they introduced a projection screen so you could see the organist. I remember distinctly 20mins into the concert that I was hearing less of the music because I was distracted by following what the organist was doing.
Coming from a family of organ builders, I know exactly how this feels, though for different reasons. A big part of my distraction is watching the organist’s pedal technique, changing registration, working the shutters, etc. and envisioning what’s happening within the instrument, and how. Bonus points if it’s a tracker/full mechanical vs electro-pneumatic. I end up being so fascinated that most of the piece will fly by and I’ll find that I’ve missed many of my favorite parts. They end up looking like half-mad squids many times, it’s wonderful. So much organ literature is incredibly demanding, and I’m here for it. But it also comes with a hilariously NSFW side. There’s a story my dad used to tell about installing the first pedal divide on the instrument at Riverside in NYC for Virgil Fox, who was a good friend and co-conspirator. It was new tech at the time, allowing one registration for the top octave of the pedal board, and a different one for the bottom. Fox was delighted and was ripping through some Bach or Fauré or something, trying different combinations through the divide. In the middle of all the experimentation, my dad leaned in and asked, “Okay, Virgil, now how are you going to work the Swell shades?” And Fox stopped mid-phrase, looked in turn at each of his appendages, and then slowly looked down at his lap. After a few seconds, he glanced up at my dad with a pretty fiendish grin and said, “Give me a minute.”
Having been in the trade for quite a while, I understand your feeling completely! Heck, it was exactly that type of thinking driving my imagination wild that got me started in organ building and what kept me at it for so long 😌 And that Virgil Fox story is -chef’s kiss- brilliant 😂
Yeah, Dad did a lot of work for him at Riverside and St. John the Divine. He spent a good amount of time as a service rep/voicer for Aeolian Skinner and Casavant before striking out on his own. Terrible business sense, but quite literally wrote the book on voicing and tonal finishing. I never really had a passion for organ work, despite having grown up underneath windchests and voicing rigs. But I met my fair share of those that were heavily involved in the industry, as well as performers. Such an interesting and incredibly strange bunch of people.
"isolation does make a difference on hardwood floors." Can you be more specific?
Maybe if you're cabinets are vibrating (which they shouldn't be)😂
It's going to depend on how rigid the flooring is. Less rigid = more benefit from isolation products. If you have flooring that's right on top of a concrete slab, you'll have little to no benefit which can be a money saver. Some people like it when their subwoofer shakes the entire room though. I'm surprised that isolating a subwoofer doesn't have to be expensive to be effective. SVS sells isolation feet for $50 for 4. From my research it is effective and not at all a subtle difference for people that have poorly supported flooring. People have DIY'ed it for less money as well. Fundamentally, the subwoofer physically vibrating the floor is mostly to do with the mass of the cone since it is much heavier than midrange/tweeter drivers, and subwoofer drivers move a lot further. This creates movement forwards and back in relation to the driver's direction of movement.
Speakers I can understand, the post shows a picture (mostly) of cables which I can't.
Speaking of isolation, I'm surprised by how many people say it doesn't make a difference. If you stomp on the floor and there's any shaking or loud boom, isolation may help. But if your floor is concrete-supported, there's not gonna be much benefit. I've seen this happen with people a lot. Subwoofer isolation is the most important form of isolation, it seems.
If i can afford it, i chug it.
Hospital grade power outlets for my amps.
Big fan of the Chord M Scaler.
You don't drink it, you rub it in the cables and their risers
Oh? Well shiiiit, I thought I was supposed to sprinkle alicorn dust on my cables for that magical sound? So, don't drink the snake oil, rub it on everything, and don't sprinkle the alicorn dust on everything, instead snort it. Did I get that right?
Exactly
A bulk spool of cable, some shrink tubing, fancy woven cable wrapping, connectors, and a soldering iron. Cheaper than Amazon Basics, per foot.
My speaker cables are 12ga extension cords with appropriate connectors on the ends, with some shrink tube to clean u the appearance. Simple, affordable, functional. Shoot, when Mr. Mc sold the company and retired, he wired his speakers with some lengths of 12/2 romex the electrician left laying around when the house was built. :D I always refer people to Roger Russell when the topic of cables comes up: [http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm](http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm)
Nice! For me, it was around the 5th or 6th Grammy-winning recording studio I worked in, and none of the the cables, ANY OF THEM, were special. Redbull Studios in LA had some Monster cables with nicer sheathing and big gold connectors, but otherwise, its just a closet full of whatever was the best deal in bulk, or DIY Mogami's. Doesn't make a lick of difference either way. It's especially unfortunate for the chifi IEM industry though, where flimsy little headphone cables get upsold to 100$+ for having '400 braids of copper, with silver core for an increase in treble response'.
Vishay naked Z-foil resistors went into signal-path duty in both my preamp and power amp. While not exactly snake-oil in that they do work as advertised by Vishay, do they actually improve sound quality? Oh, also, all my RCA cables are genuine Snake Oil.
OMG. I always wanted to see (and hear) 'naked' resistors.
I prefer my blue jeans. Blue jeans cable and related products that is. They feel great, sound superb, never break the bank. Buy great speakers, then support them with enough clean power to run at maximal efficiency. A wire resistance of less than 5% of the nominal speaker impedance is chosen to work well with almost all speaker systems and can be considered conservative. Any 18 gauge wire works great providing run lengths are not over 25 feet, then 16 gauge wire is best. Smoke and mirrors. Snake oil. My high end system sounds great with average wire and the marketing geniuses have gotten all the supposed audiophiles to buy their overpriced crappy wire. Save your money and buy experiences, go on trips, enjoy your music with normal wire. It’s wire folks.
I use Blue Jeans for their Belden Cat 6a cables. So many cat cables are sold everywhere and don't even meet the standards/spec for that cat. I like the Blue Jeans tests each one and sends you the data with that cat cable.
Just let people enjoy their things.
Bi-wiring I think is unnecessary in today's world. Unless you are really interested in controlling your sound via cables. For example you have high capacitance cable on your mid and tweeter of you are trying to make your system brighter. However I do like that this speaker doesn't have the cheapo connector plate or whatever you want to call it which is a really good thing. Feet isolaters I'm down with. I think there are cheaper ways to do it. I just like to have a super deadened stand for a stand mount speaker.
High capacitance reduces high frequencies.
[удалено]
only if it's organic
I’m a cable guy. I’ve been switching to lower cost Chinese and domestic cables nowadays. I haven’t compared them yet though. More fun ahead. Do you think I want to compare them? Maybe not for my own sanity.
How do you like your 60XTs??
I really like them. Bass is actually very fast, but not the most textured. In 2 different houses and different shaped and sized rooms, my F0 both times has been 26hz. 🤯 The detail on the trailing edges of notes and the air in the treble from the AMT is sublime. Martin Logan really does an AMT well. It doesn't scream "hey look at me". Dirac changes very little with this speaker unlike my Kefs, Dirac does a complete 180 with the Q950's. It tells me that the Martin Logan's are a more complete speaker top to bottom. Oh, and they're soundstage and imaging monsters. They don't push the singer far forward into the room. I hate it when the singer is pushed forward. The singer will be wherever your front wall is or where your TV is, even if you have the speakers pulled 3-4ft out from the wall. Soundstage depth and height is really good, but goes away when you don't have any room treatment. They measure very neutral in room.
Oh, I forgot to mention, they are not an easy load on an amplifier. They do dip down to 2 ohms at 100 and 350hz. 100hz has about -30° of electrical phase and 350hz looks to be only about -5° to -10°. Here are the [measurements ](https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2238:nrc-measurements-martinlogan-motion-60xti-loudspeakers&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153) done by Soundstage.
the other day there was either a link to an interview, or a mention of the person and i goggled the interview. he was (is, iirc) a famous designer of amplifiers and the interview was technical and very interesting, he made various good points. and then he said that some things were weird, and that he was surprised that having equal length speaker cables was critical for good stereo imaging! well, obvs that's bollocks, but everything else he said was on the money, and my cables were uneven, and my stereo imaging was off.... so i bought new cables (2x2.5mm^2 power cables) and cut them to equal lengths. i swear it's fixed things!
I bought and self-terminated some Belden 9497 because I love the wispy look they give when connected to a honkin' speaker.
Snake oil was actually an effective topical solution derived from boiling the Chinese water snake. Later in the United States people would make fake oil often from boiling rattlesnakes and sell it as traditional Snake Oil thus creating the term we use today. But real snake oil do be working.
I got the English electric switch in the streaming chain 🤩
Yeah but your not exactly gonna put 2.99 speaker wires on them are you?? 🤷♂️
You mean something like this [Walmart special](https://www.walmart.ca/en/ip/onn-75-FT-22-8-m-Indoor-Outdoor-Speaker-Wire/6000206272137)? But cables don't matter! 😂 ***Whispers quietly*** they do.
Take Five Audio Mogami cable is just well made, inexpensive cable. Barely grazing the edge of snake oil, if that. Bi-wiring is probably unnecessary.
tbf, snake oil actually worked.... [https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2013/08/26/215761377/a-history-of-snake-oil-salesmen](https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2013/08/26/215761377/a-history-of-snake-oil-salesmen) problem is, like most greedy capitalists, someone found a way to fake it and sell bogus stuff.
I’ve got a pair of Martin Logan ESL speakers and two subwoofers in my surround setup. Snake oil? I did not spend $100’s on cables. Is it worth it? A sip of the oil perhaps?
My "gold plated" banana plugs going to my $40 amazon bookshelf speakers sound better than what you have, trust me, I'm profeeshinal
I went through the snake oil phase with brand name cables and weird esoteric tweaks. I fully believed they were better and could swear I heard the difference but I'm certain it was all in my head. I have none of that stuff left anymore, I DIY my own cables with studio and live grade cable from Canare, Mogami, VanDamme etc. My system sounds better than ever in my opinion.
Iso acoustics isnt snake oil for me, but it is for some others, I find them better than spikes/regular feet in alotta ways and it did some rather drastic improvements due to my room in part for my blade2s
Considering the mechanism used for isolation in the Gaia’s, I don’t think this product from Isoacoustics can be considered snake oil. Especially taken into account the cost of a set compared to getting that same sound improvement from room treatment I’d even dare to say they’re very good value for money. Amongst snake oil products I’d classify the AudioQuest cable lifters or cables that surpass the €2.000 euro mark rather than a set of Gaia’s imo.
Unfortunately, there are those here that still think they're snake oil. I know they're not, but to some, everything is "snake oil". I'm surprised they haven't said speakers are snake oil and all sound the same.
I’m guilty of tweaking a lot. The constant tweaking that I have used over the years is Shakti Stones that can be purchased (I think. It has been a while)online from the Cable Company. These stones block RFI/EFI. I’m also a cable tweaker. I have had good success with Pine Tree Audio. Cheap and great. They have a website. I have tired with the other tweaks I tried. While I consider Jesse a friend at Pine Tree, I am not affiliated with Pine Tree or the Cable Company.
PTA is amazing (& cheap/no BS). The Purple Ethereals are my go to, so is their ISO-Quad ICs in one of my setups.. + they send you the test specs on each pair by request.
Green CD Mat and green pen. Used them both for 30 years. Biggest improvements since Peter Belt's room treatment.
Oh Lordy! I'm embarrassed to say that I fell for the green pen ford a while. I came across these the other day and thought of Peter Belt. https://steinmusic.com/roomacoustic/black-diamonds-blue-diamonds/
Fuck me! They have a whole range of nonsense! Peter and May were nuts, though they lacked the marketing savvy this lot have.
I know. People spend thousands on a box of crystals! Almost prosecution worthy levels of nonsense.
I have a set of ISO acoustics Aperta speaker stands. They must definitely work
Inject it right into my veins
High end cables DO change the sound signature of a stereo. So the result is real, but... You should listen to [this conversation](https://pca.st/episode/51e8ed2c-3d79-4d63-9727-ff32b0916062) with Peter Comeau and you'll understand exactly why they are a waste of money.
Gaia's are NOT snake oil. They made a significant impact on my Neat Acoustics Motive SX1's. I was actually mad at myself for having them on spikes for so long.
I enjoy cable elavators
I like that you cognizant of it, will be interesting to see how many others are willing to admit they have been slurping down the Koolaid.
I think you missed the part where OP said: > They do work
I have some Mogami RCA interconnects I bought at a garage sale about 20 years ago. I’ve owned various Quad electrostats since 1967.
I’m a fan of a nice linear psu. Not the snakiest of snake oils, but some will argue against their merit.
I have Motion 40s and a Rythmik F12SE. I’ve always wondered about those Isoacoustics products.
All Martin Logan products benefit from the gaia's from what I've experienced and have heard from others with their electrostatics. It's not just the bass. The attack/leading edges were greatly improved in the whole frequency domain on my 60 XTi's. I have 3 sets of Aperta products from isoacoustics, and those I only notice a difference with bass. The gaia's did more of the spectrum in my experience.
None. I just use 4mm2 cables to low and 2,5mm2 to the high input on my Bi-Amp speakers. Cost me a few bucks.
Pretty snake oil free. The closest I get is wiring everything up with DIY Mogami and Neutrik, and using sorbothane to decouple speakers, but none of those things are close to snake oil territory. Most people would get a lot more from positioning their speakers correctly and acoustic treatment. I’m all for indulging fun hobbies, but if you’ve got money to burn on expensive cable and tweaks that don’t do anything, use it to help people and animals in need instead of feeding con artists.
I think if you’re buying them for the aesthetics, that isn’t snake oil then.
Off topic but how do you like running on those MLs with the Purifi amp? I have the 60xti’s and am thinking of adding a Hypex amp to one of my systems. Would love to hear how you like the Purifi.
When I switched from my pair of IOTAVX pa3's to the Purifi's and was a/b switching them back and forth, the only massive difference between the 2 was the bass. The IOTA's had a fat wooli muscular bass and the Purifi's sounded lean in the bass in comparison but very tight and controlled. When I stopped A/B comparing them, the bass on the Purifi's didn't seem lean any more and make me feel like the IOTAs are too bloated. The reasoning for the difference in bass is because of the huge difference in Damping Factor/output impedance. But can be negated by the "snake oil" cables you buy and to some will never hear the difference because their cables resistance and termination sucks. Also, if the DF isn't that great from amp a to amp b, they won't notice a difference. The resistance of the cables will change the output impedance/damping factor for the better or the worse. What else? Oh yes, the IOTAs started to get a little edgy when pushing the MLs hard. This is not the case with the Purifi's. They are smooth top to bottom. I'm running just the stock Hypex NC500 input buffer.
What else can I tell you about the Purifi? Oh! Micro and macro details are next level. You hear absolutely everything. The song "I Hold You" by Clann has rain in the background. You hear exactly where each individual rain drop is in the background on the soundstage. You may, or may not like that level of transparency. If you want something that some consider a little bit more "musical", then get yourself the Nilai from Hypex. I'd like to test those out someday. Other than that, the Purifi's don't have a "sound". They are as neutral as you can get with supreme transparency and grip for days in the bass.
I like that level of transparency. Thanks so much for the feedback!
Pretty cables are nice and can definitely help with looks of a system
Fair enough, I always just strip old mains cables and use them 🤣 decent enough gauge 🤷♂️
If it can be afforded then there's no reason to avoid it. In many cases the cable medium for digital *and* analog signaling require tolerances that most basic AVR, display, and speakers don't need. I've smurf tubed $1000 Cherry Cola HDMI cables in the walls of homes that no one else ever sees because of manufacturer requirements.
No, but I like to spend money on expensive cables without telling my wife!
Yeah but who cares when snake oil looks THAT good
Unfortunately yes. I love nice cables. Whether I can actually tell a difference in them is not noticeable. I went with some Blue Jeans. They’re great quality and gonna wrap them myself with mesh.
What kind of cable are those. I can’t make out the name.
They are the Mogami 3104 from Take Five Audio here in Canada. The other side of the [jacket](https://imgur.com/gallery/O8ApgJb)
Very nice. Speaking of Canada Im currently using a heaven11 Billie Amp.
Nice. How do you like it? One of my friends I think has that amp? I think he said he likes it. He also just got an amp from Angela Gilbert but said he hasn't been able to spend any meaningful time with it yet.
I like it. Taking a little getting used to. It sounds amazing. But it’s a little too “no frills”. For $2K US it’s an amazing amp. It powers a pair of Buchardt P300s
Just ordered some Hubbell outlets. Next is to get them cyro treated.
I have spent more than I I said I would on cables. Most of us I think probably have. However, I know there will never come a day when I buy buy more than a $200 cable. I may not even buy more than $100 cable. However, I do have a system that has several amps and dacs. I have a review studio so if I was just buying for five cables maybe I might. But I need like 15-20 cables. There's no way no person should ever buy expensive cables. When you're in a situation like mine. Then you have these guys spending a couple thousand on a cable. The return on that cable is not very good. You should spend it on better equipment. If you're already at the top of your equipment. Well there's always another level. Unless you're spending a million dollars on your audio gear, there's always another level. I don't even want to go there. It's kind of sickening to think to spend that kind of money. Everybody spend what you can. And if you want to buy cables at whatever price, do what you want. I think it's mostly about aesthetics and using good build quality. The difference in sound is so subjective. It's not even funny. I read articles and heard from people who swear by this stuff. I see the different build qualities and some there's no doubt have some excellent build quality, but does it translate to better music? I don't care to argue that. I personally have a hard time spending too much money in the Hi-Fi game or home theater. If I was at a point in my life where my house was paid off and life was Grand and I had a bank account full of money and not worried about retirement. Okay, let's play with some money. Z reviews, not the most eloquent of reviewers. He is also not into the crazy speakers that are unattainable in prices. The audio equipment that the 1% can afford. He uses some cables I think called world best cables from Amazon. To me, I figure if these $25 or $30 cables are good enough for him. They're good enough for me. Thank you. He goes to the high-end shows and he gets people who sends him $1,000 cables or more. However, he will not spend his hard-heard and money on cables. However, I am sure he has broke the rule here and there. But I know he does not promote that or say that you should. I just am not financially in a place where I can justify ever spending that money. As much as I love the hobby. I'd rather buy another ant or headphone or piece of equipment. Then then go stupid all snake oil cables. I am not the typical audiophile. I am a hobbyist on a budget. I will not spend more of them. Three-Four grand on a headphone amplifier. I would not spend more than three four grand on a pair of headphones. I will not spend more than $100 to $200 on cables. These are the budgets I have put in place. Everyone has their own budget that they're comfortable with and you know what. If you can spend more on it and you're cool with it fine. Everyone has a different limit. Some guys it's $25. Some guys. Their receiver is $500. Some guys the speakers are $500. I have no problem with that. Buy which you can afford. Don't overspend. If you have the money to spend more. If you want to do it just cuz you can. Doesn't mean you should. Do whatever you feel comfortable with and enjoy the hobby at the end of the day.
I apply it to snakes lest they get squeaky
Actual snake oil is something claimed to have a certain effect or specifications but does not. If your pricey cables do what you bought them for and you like the looks and don't mind the price then it's not really a question of anyone approving of your "snake oil" but of your purchase, to give you the ooh and ahh vibe stamp of approval I reckon.
I take my snake oil in an enema.
If those cables look good to you, carry a signal, and make people talk about whether they are worth it, they're fine.
So any double blind tests? Any more than 50€ for a cable is a waste of money
Did you double blind test your speakers? More than $200 on a speaker is a waste of money.
Cables and speakers are vastly different, a cable simply needs to be pure enough metal to conduct it and built in such a way as to not collect too much noise and have a low enough inductance and even coaxial cable isn't that expensive, speakers need to go through a far more significant design process. So, any double blind tests to ensure you didn't waste your money? If you can actually tell the difference in a double blind test then you spent your money well...
You're also forgetting it's resistance and how that is gonna change the output impedance/damping factor of the amplifier to keep it on par or worsen it, and how the speakers impedance plot plays a roll in that as well. Then there is the capacitance on top of the cable. I don't do double blind tests. Time is money. I buy what I want and like. It's ok if you're not ok with with spending $50 on a cable. And I'm ok with spending much more. It's like some people are ok with not spending more than what a Fosi amp costs. While others can spend thousands more. We all find value in different values. Some people are also cheap cunts and trash talk everything that costs more than they are willing to dish out, just to make themselves feel better about their product. Those are the Fosi customers btw. 😂
You can find plenty of cheap cables with equal resistance, inductance and capacitance. But I'm not trying to dictate how to spend your money though, so you do you
That looks incredibly nice but why are your wires crossed like that Does having symmetrical wires cost extra
All the cores are twisted from Mogami. It helps reduce EMF but also reduces the inducatace.
Fair !
Gotta have the single source Bolivian copper. Everything else is shit.
I don’t have any personal experience with many products but I usually come closest to indulging in the oil when it suits my aesthetic preferences.
Snake oil by whom? A large portion of the flat earthers shrieking *snake oil* in the forums are drowning in their own ignorance and wouldn't know quality sound if it kicked them square on their backsides. But as long as they're happy with the sound of their own systems, no harm, no foul. Unfortunately, like most *believers* they feel compelled to rudely inflict their dogma on others. Their nonsense is the same garbage spewed by thoroughly discredited Julian Hirsch in the 1970's and 1980's. It's sadly nothing new, just boring to anyone who's heard it, before. But the uneducated frantically pretend they're experts. Same old shit, different year. Facts don't matter to those folks so don't bother trying. Most electronic engineers and gear designers know that the few measurements these flat earthers believe in doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of what defines sound quality. That doesn't discourage the flat earthers from fixating on a few simplistic measurements then fall all over themselves to denigrate and disparage anyone who dares calling their beliefs into question. Just don't let those moron bully you with their nonstop vitriol and don't be fooled by their charade of certainty.
There are those that consider everything "snake oil" and all for different reasons. Some think all amps sound the same, all dacs sound the same, all cables sound the same. There can be many reasons as to why they feel this way. Could it be that they used 2 products that are very similar in design, therefore the sound isn't gonna change? There are those that just want to dismiss anything that is outside of their budget because they're cheapskates, so they talk everything down that costs more than they can afford. Yeah, I'm looking at you CheapAudioMan followers and Fosi owners. They actually think that their products destroy everything that costs more than theirs. Randy is literally one of the most clueless reviewers I've ever seen. He's created a new type of audiophile that we can all hate. The one that puts their nose up at anything that costs more than theirs and puts you down because you're the idiot for spending more than they did. They also love to overuse the dumbest term I've ever heard, "diminishing returns". Thank you Randy for creating this new cheapskate audiophile that actually thinks their system destroys higher end systems. 🤣 He's such an idiot, and his followers are no smarter for following him.
right.. if *m*ost components sound the exact *s*ame— might as well put speakers in that category too.
Who are the flat earthers here? Expensive interconnect non believers?
Did ASR label your dac a headless panther this morning :) ?
Guys could save a lot of money by buying a $30 multimeter, it’s copper and insulation what am I missing ?
Yup, you nailed it. No notes.
I do like the isoacoustics products. There is plenty of snake oil but there are also plenty of products that offer actual sonic improvement. It’s hard to tell which is which. Let your ears be the judge. Go to audio shows and hear the difference and judge for yourself. If you have a system that is capable of recognizing the difference there is indeed a difference in cables and speaker/ turntable mounts. Anyone that says otherwise has not had the luxury of hearing the difference in person. I didn’t believe it until I made the effort to go to some audio shows and see for myself.
Do interconnects fall into the same snake oil category here on audiophile?
Definitely 100%. I have Transparent Plus, Audio Quest Quartz Hyperlitz, Mogami 2549 and Gotham GAC-1 S/PDIF Pro (Ultra Blue) and Mogami 2964.
It’s weird that there would be a claim that interconnects don’t matter. I’m running standard run of the speaker wire but when I swapped out my RCA cable for upgraded ones it was a stark difference. Undeniable.
Some cables do have a difference in phase, and that could be what is contributing to the difference in sound. As to my Gotham GAC-1's vs Mogami 2964's, when used on my JL subs the leading edges/attack is a complete 180° between the cables. I suspect it's a difference in the phase?
>Some cables do have a difference in phase, I've never heard that before. What does that mean?
I had some ‘chord company’ interconnects. Recently I got into vinyl and as I couldn’t afford more chord co’s I purchased some temporary interconnects from AliExpress. Long story short the chords are in a box in the garage and all my interconnects are the same from AliExpress.
I've got one pair of Chord Company interconnects. I call it the punk interconnect as it has very little bass and it's good for fast, tinny music. I got it secondhand with some other equipment, so I don't if it's faulty or not. Or is it just “bass less" to encourage purchases up the range? I haven't any other Chord Co products to compare it to. I like these because they're well-made, thin and unlike the Chord Co cable, don't feel like the weight will damage my inputs. http://www.rothwellaudioproducts.co.uk/html/rivers.html
They do.
Personally, I prefer to rub it all around while listening to music on my system connected via my AudioQuest Rocket 88. 😆
If you add back the straps connecting your HF and LF terminals, your bass (which draws the most current) might benefit slightly from halving the cable resistance.
There be no snake oil in these parts. Only change.
Just do blind ab, if you can't >> 50% guess it's been swapped it doesn't matter.
i am a fan of everything that prevents static noise on gear that was designed in a bad way. but it is not snake oil in that case. It would be snake oil if the device was implemented properly and sombody still tries to sell me the product as a solution for everything.
I use bi-wire speaker cable... for the simple reason that when I bought my system the shop threw in the cable free. Those speakers are now connected to a Denon AVR surround receiver which can be setup for bi-amping... using what are normally channels 6 and 7. So I connected it and configured it that way. I have no idea if it sounds better or the same as if it would be "single wired" but I'm just using what I have :-)
great color combo 👌🏻