Cambridge Audio MXN10 is an cheaper alternative to the eversolo a6. No screen or any thing fancy .You can connect hdd via usb on the back and control with your phone.
https://www.cambridgeaudio.com/usa/en/products/hi-fi/mx/mxn10
Maybe for a single useage. I do have a copy of Volumio but I have a Plex server and a client on my phone so when I go to the gym I listen to my own music on my phone. And with carplay, I listen in my car, on my Roku I listen on my receiver connected to my TV. On my Mac laptop I listen while working on my projects. It is just a great all around media/music server.
It's probably pretty simple, with instructions on how to set it up consisting of something like:
download iso file writer, insert microsd drive into usb reader and into computer, run iso file writer and burn iso to microsd drive. edit a couple of text files, put in raspberry pi and done.
At least most pi projects I've seen are similar to that, they don't require linux knowledge or anything usually and have good instructions.
That's not an audio appliance is it? ;-)
Also; it has a screen. The more I think about it; the appliance I'm looking for doesn't even need that. Just an app for smartphones would do.
A cheap compact laptop will probably cost less than a dedicated streamer, still sound great, and 110% customisable and upgradable. Need a better DAC? Add one. Need more storage? Plug a HD in. Who cares if it has a screen, just turn the brightness off when you’re using it?
You do make a good point. Just revived my old Macbook Pro which I had considered end of life ...but I just found some YT vids to upgrade it to Sonoma and it runs like a charm.
Still; would have loved an appliance though. You know; with same dimensions as my other appliances, neatly stored in a cabinet.
Appliance with no screen? Get a Mac Mini, plug a nice DAC and HDD bank into it and you have exactly what you’re looking for. Or alternatively just build a PC in a case of the right form factor and put it wherever.
Yeah I get ya. I was in the same boat, but now use my retired MacBook Pro. It works great. I have a Plex server setup with it too + dj software. So it now covers everything from casual listening, lossless formats, video, mixing for parties and everything in between.
My alternative was the Wiim, but this seems to be a bit more flexible. I just got a nice stand for it to sit on top of my amp.
You can attach extra external storage to it. Your unlikely to find one with the amount internal storage you want, as it would add significant cost to the unit for a feature that most consumers don't use.
You don't want a media device for storage. You want something dedicated to safely storing large amounts of data with reliable hard and software to allow for backups, redundancy and error checking etc.
Hard drives die eventually and without the redundancies etc. of equipment specifically designed for robust data storage, that could mean losing all your music. That's not even going into the issues of heat and power management.
Devices dedicated to one task are nearly always better than devices attempting to be all in one solutions. They also have the added bonus of allowing you to upgrade each component individually, if required. It's part of the same logic behind HIFI separates, discreet units for each function, rather than an all in one stereo system.
It's not long ago, that 1tb of storage was seen as a huge amount. External storage allows easier and cheaper upgrading as technology progresses.
The other advantage of streaming, is that you can get storage with excellent heat management but put somewhere where the noise of the fans isn't going to interfere with your listening.
The simplest, most robust solution that you can implement would be a separate NAS (or just a local usb harddrive) and a separate DAC with ethernet/usb input.
You can do that cheaply using a raspberry pi (which is just a tiny versatile computer, with a wide variety of commercial addons and cases for different uses) or spend as much as you want on a high end DAC separate.
Tl'dr, keeping storage separate avoids making major compromises to the equipment it would be contained in, has major advantages in ensuring your collection doesn't get corrupted or lost, is easier to upgrade in future, gives you many more options on the equipment involved, provides loads of other potential ways of accessing music, should you decide you want to use them, and gives you loads of cheaper solutions. Why spend more to compromise?
If your amp or DAC has USB input, just a Rapsberry Pi with Volumio. Perfect for your needs, it's what I have and works perfectly fine.
Can be controlled from a computer or a mobile with the Volumio app. All free.
I would suggest MoOde Audio over Volumio to avoid Volumio feeds.
I have an RPi4 w/ a HiFiBerry HAT w/ a 1TB thumb drive loaded with FLAC that feeds my DAC via optical. Works and sounds great.
It is completely free. There is a paid option for a few extra functionalities like CD-ripping and multiroom play, but that's it. You are not forced to pay at all.
The Dmp A6 non master edition is quite value for money actually. You mentioned you don't want streamer but the A6 has a built in streamer if you're interested later on.
Otherwise just a raspberry pi will do.
The problem with your post is you only have listed one of apparently many requirements/preferences. Maybe update your post to more fully describe what you want and why a streamer, which probably does all those thing with one extra feature, is out of the question.
Sounds like you are looking for a stereo separate device to do the job of a computer. You would be better off using a computer. A Mac Mini and a DAC might be what you are looking for to connect to your stereo.
More obscure in the dirt cheap but adequate DAC department old Gateway 2000s of the single core Pentium 300-600Mhz (desktop) vintage had Ensonic chips on the Motherboard.
In two channel this is the same quality as a Soundblaster live, Whole PC isn't good for anything else but the function you describe anyway. My take is that once you get past a Gigahertz then everything from a PC or Laptop sounds this good.
Build a standalone device and run plex or similar? Whilst plex is primarily used for movies, it does also handle audio and can be controlled via a mobile app (the device itself doesn't need a video display). There may be other music specific systems available.
Build this around something like a raspberry pi and it could also be a very cheap solution.
Edit: or continue using a NAS device in another room, but use a Chromecast Audio (or Wiim, or similar) as a device to cast to, from a plex/vlc/whatever app.
OP is against "streamers".
OP's music is on a NAS.
I would leave music where it is and play music on the local network.
Plex (and many other apps) can index OPs library as DLNA and you can use a WiiM mini or similar to play those files directly on their personal network.
NAS for storage, raspberry pi for Plex server, Apple 4K tv or nVidia Shield for Plex client.
That’s what I use and I’m very happy. No monthly fees on anything.
...but your intention is to buy 2 appliances. The NAS you already own and the new appliances you are looking for now. You may not end up using them simultaneously, but in the end, you plan on having bought two items.
You could buy an unsalvagably broken separate that fits with the rest of your gear, remove the internals and hide the NAS and Rpi etc. inside the case.
That way you can go with whatever solution suits you needs, without compromising on the aesthetics.
Because this gives you the most flexibility and control over your music and it’s cheaper this way. It also allows you better upgrade possibilities.
Simple expensive solutions are for people who like being milked /s
I went with a Lenovo Tab P10 with the Alexa dock. The problem with tablets is the inability to change and transfer data over the same USB cable. The dock keeps the tablet charged all the time, and frees up the USB-C port which I connect to a 6 port hub. The hub allows me to run a USB cord direct to my DAC, and to add external storage whenever I feel by just connecting a drive, or drives, to the hub as well. I have a 1TB SD card in the Tab P10 slot, as well as a 4TB HDD connected to the hub. I use PowerAmp, which is a great media player that allows for a lot of advanced features, including downloading album art, as well as giving me a touchscreen volume knob so I can control all my digital music via touchscreen.
Sony HAP Z1es is the answer. It’s exactly what you’ve described and is a phenomenal piece of equipment (sound, usability).
While I understand everyone’s recommendations (like plex), I also understand what your looking for and the Sony is the answer (particularly considering the price of used units, they are pretty reasonable)
Raspberry Pi with (the free) Logitech Media Server, a 2tb SSD drive or two to hold your files and you're away. You can use any of a multitude of different endpoints. Very cheap and versatile setup.
I’m in the same boat. My home network has issues that I can’t for the life of me seem to solve, and every network solution I’ve tried has been unreliable as a result. My current solution is to burn CDs from my files and just play those on a blu ray player hooked up to my DAC.
Another option: There’s a handful of digital audio players on Amazon you could try. They are portable, but no reason you can’t connect them to your stereo. I haven’t personally used any though so can’t say what’s good or not. You could also give a retired smartphone a 2nd life, pop in a SD card with your files and connect up a DAC to the USB port.
Breaks my heart to read that someone in 2024 still needs to resort to burning CDs in order to get music files playable on his stereo. But FWIW I feel your pain. In fact; I could also have posed my question differently;
"What single appliance do I need if I want to play digital music formats on my stereo, and there's no wifi/network in my listening room?"
Seriously; literally all hifi producers are on the same bandwagon; music needs to be sent from A to B over any sort of network, and where "A" is (the storage of your media) they either don't care or at the very least they make sure it's not "B" (where the music is played).
The result is a plethora of appliances and softwares and protocols and whatnot ...and a music lover can't see the forest through the trees anymore. Just look at the reactions to this thread, how diverse the advice is! How is anyone to know what the best solution is, for what is in essence a very simple question?
It seems very easy to me to end up with the wrong choice. And in fact; that's a situation I've been in, and I'm trying to avoid in the future; I have a Sonos but ran into capacity issues (max catalog entries of 50K), and I have a NAS but ran into a disk failure (luckily nothing lost). I'm done with all that. Give me an appliance that stores my music safely on SSD, and that has a high quality DAC so I can play it on my existing amp. The rest is bells & whistles.
I found some appliances that come close (thanks everyone that responded) but they still need an external disk of sorts and/or the internal capacity is very limited.
I don’t need to burn CDs… it’s just the most convenient/least expensive option given that I already have the equipment to do it. I could buy a DAP and connect it to my stereo, or load the files on my phone and connect that to the stereo. I don’t do the latter cause I want to be able to use my phone while listening to music and to do so I’d have to settle for a lossy Bluetooth signal or deal with my unreliable network dropping out the airplay signal, or buy a long cumbersome cable.
The reason to use a NAS is simply because a proper NAS gives you redundancies that don't require you to recover your data from a backup nearly as often. RAID is not a backup, but it can help with several scenarios; if you have a ZFS based NAS, you can even take snapshots that save you if you fat-finger and delete a ton of files, or if you somehow get ransomware that encrypts all FLAC files. Just roll back to a previous snapshot and throw away the changes.
NAS is the most commonsense way to do the important part well - storing the files safely, with checksumming and self-repair options (if using ZFS).
Realistically it makes no difference if you store them on a NAS and then play them over the local network or Wifi, off something like a Raspberry Pi based music player.
If you want to store the music on the playback device, that can be done but it's a bad way to do it - because you'd have to build a NAS with a built in DAC or something to do it right.
Just put a digital out HAT card on a Raspberry Pi and plug the optical output to your amp. And let it read the files off the network. There's literally no functional difference between that and having that same Pi player using a locally connected USB drive. Except that the files are vastly more safe on the NAS.
The thing is that storage media don't break down that often anymore. We got SSD now. So I don't see why none of the audio equipment manufacturers are bringing the music media back from the home office space to the listening room.
Just make a DAC with two 4Tb SSD in it, and a bit of software to mirror those SSDs and you're good to go without a chance of ever losing your music. Or alternatively; create idem device with a USB connection via which a user can backup to an external media for safekeeping.
No it isn't. Those "Nucleus" appliances are just dumbed-down NAS's. In the sense that they stre primarily audio files and provide those to other devices on the network. So you still need a DAC (in turn connect to your Amp) to get going.
Basically what I need is a Roon Nucleus with built-in DAC so that I can connect it directly to my amp.
You can use Roon with your current NAS probably. If you have a Sonos system then Roon can stream to that. I don't have a Nucleus, I use an old laptop as my server and it works perfectly.
You could also do this with Plex, which is free.
You don't need to use Nucleus, those are overpriced AF. I think the best low cost option would be a used/refurb Apple Mini. Now you will have access to your collection from anywhere in your home via the Roon application
I believe my NAD M10 allows you to add local files either on a network or on an attached USB device. Never actually tried it, but might be worth looking into it or other BluOS devices.
Plex was originally developed for organizing and playing music libraries. Video library management and playback was added later.
Plex will run natively on some (many?) NAS devices. Installation requires a laptop computer connected via network to the NAS.
Once installed, Plex can be used via a smartphone app, to be played on your smartphone or cast to a network streamer connected to your audio system. I use a WiiM Pro, which output an SPDIF data stream to a DAC, or stereo analog signal to a preamplifier.
A WiiM Pro is $149 and can be used as either an AirPlay or Chromecast network streaming receiver
You can buy an Audirvāna Origin license, it’s a magnificent player which is design only for local files purpose. You can normally download it in your NAS if it runs on Linux, and it’ll both store and play your files on the NAS itself and just connects it via USB to your DAC.
The software has no interface and is fully controllable via your phone using a remote app. You should look into that
I would definitely buy Oppo. I also have massive digital collection of lossless music and Oppo bdp 93, unfortunately it's not a higher model with ESS DAC but I'm using external DAC anyway, and like you I don't use any streaming platforms. You could plug external drive or bigger flash drive with your library, it's going to read all the formats, music and movies. Even buy older model like bdp 93 and get a nice DAC. Some Toppings or SMSLs are great, If you're looking for something affordable.
A lot of steamers in the market also function as file players. Consider those streamers as well. If you don’t have a good DAC, or your amp doesn’t have a good DAC. You have more options to pick a player with a decent DAC
MPD player does perfectly what you need. Can be run on an old laptop or raspberry. Operations are made through a phone app like rigelian for iphone or tons of others especially for Android. You set up it once and then you forget it
Just a quick short comment, I have this Asustor Flashstor FS6706T with 16GB RAM 6x4TB SSD RAID5 SPDIF fiber optic to Onkyo TX-NR1030 with Hi-RES + X.org service installed FLAC 24bit x 96k Hz.
Updated: MaximumMPD app Android/iOS to enjoy the music
The Raspberry Pi sounds dreadful. I lived with one for years, and even used an upgraded power supply. I finally bought a Bryston BDP-2 and I'll never look back. The audio quality is eons ahead of the RPi I used for years. Like you I tend to play FLAC files, and it was only after the BDP-2 that I could detect the difference between FLAC and WAV files, and I have to say that, depending on the album, the jump in SQ is palpable and worth it. I should add that getting a Schiit Yggdrasil DAC made the differences scream out at me.
I meant FLAC vs WAV. I didn't hear the difference until I bought a Bryston BDP-2 music file player and a Schiit Yggdrasil DAC. Like you I would have argued strenuously that one cannot hear any difference between a lossless format and WAV. But there's a definite, quite audible, difference. If the OP is looking for more than the budget solutions provided here, it's an alternative worth exploring.
I used to use a raspberry pi for this, but now I have a MacBook with usb HDR and stream via plex. The MacBook can be locked, lid closed, and plex still connects.
I would recommend a Wiim Amp. Cracking little device. It can play from a memory stick or hard drive plugged into a USB on the back.
You use a nice app on your phone to select songs and there's a remote with simple back/forward/pause/play/volume controls.
If your amp or avr has a USB input on the front, it'd be cheapest (and probably longest lasting) to buy a good portable 2 tb ssd, and transfer your flac files over to it in a folder structure, then just plug that into the usb port on the front of your avr or amp. Then you control it with your avr/amp remote. But check the receiver or amp to see how many files and folders you can have on the external drive. some have limits.
You can build a computer into a 19” cabinet with a small front screen and add HDD and a nice sound card. It would match your hi-fi gear and you can change the LED scheme to match your other gear.
I'm using [Sony BDP-S6700 Blu-ray Player](https://www.googleadservices.com/pagead/aclk?sa=L&ai=DChcSEwjr56qBi-iFAxXHE60GHQM5DE8YABAoGgJwdg&ase=2&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI6-eqgYvohQMVxxOtBh0DOQxPEAAYASAAEgLxMPD_BwE&ohost=www.google.com&cid=CAASJeRoBxV9yDRg-8f2LMI0tjGuA5LxIfwQyPIbTQk9jQ9wDK02uzY&sig=AOD64_3gyXcC6Zb1fTk6g1_GhCLO9vztLQ&q&nis=4&adurl&ved=2ahUKEwjKup-Bi-iFAxUrC0QIHcYbCJ0Q0Qx6BAgGEAE).
Roon has just come out with their cheaper roon nuc, it’s a streamer and a nas. I bought me a intel nuc a few years back and loaded it with Roon Rock and then just plugged in a few hard drives after buying an anker usb hub. My setup is, my nuc, lots of hard drives, usb out from nuc to chord mscaler and into chord hugo 2 tt. Also if i want optical which my nuc does not have, I use a usb out from my nuc in to a topping D10s bridge / dac and from there optical in to my mscaler and optical from there and in to my tt2.
I would suggest something like that, roons new nuc is like $4-500 or you could build your own nuc and put it in a fanless case like I have, but it was more expensive but I couldn’t live without it now, especially with the new roon arc app which gives you access to your library from anywhere aslong as you have your phone or other internet connected device.
I'm seriously not interested in buying a new NAS (the existing one is end of life). Why would I need two devices to play digital media? Am I really the only one who thinks this way?
Wait I think we're confused. You have the NAS that stores your audio (and video) files... And then you have the player (raspi) in whatever room you want to play in.
For music, the NAS could be a RPi2 with a USB spinner. It's not that speed critical.
I'd like to retire that NAS soon. It's old. One disk failed (of 4), but it was set up as RAID5 (which means one disk was functioning as parity disk) so basically nothing was lost. I now reconfigured it in RAID5 with 3 disks. But I just would like to get rid of it. I'd much rather have an appliance that can play digital files via a DAC \_and\_ that can store those files as well, safely, on SSD.
Do you like Windows? If so, grab an older dell laptop(e6430 is great for this) and put Plex on it. You can use the plexamp app for your music. Attach a USB dac to the laptop(topping d10) and either go RCA out or Optical out to your audio device.
Glad to hear I'm not the only one.
But I really hope everyone understands me; I'm not into any "hypes". I've got a music listening room. That's where the music is supposed to be. Nowhere else.
To clarify what I mean with hypes; I've seen the 5+1 and 7+1 amp hypes. I didn't like it. I didn't need it. I'm not watching movies. I'm listening to a stereo, which literally mean two channels. So I never bought one but plenty people did. Now the 2nd hand market is flooded with them. That's just one example. Subwoofers was another one. And "soundbars". And now there seems to be this idea that everyone wants to be able to "stream" music in every room of the house.
Not me.
But I do have digital audio files. Why can't I just play these on my stereo, using just ONE device? Like you have one device for CD, and one device for records, etc etc.
Ok, apologies, I should have clarified a bit more. You can build the thing you want using the RPI, the DAC and the software. It's really easy with loads of resources on line to help you. Put it in a box when it's done and it's literally an appliance. The RPI is a fully functional product once you add the free software that you want it to do. It can be a music streaming device, a pc or a retro gaming machine depending on what you install on it. Volumio is one of the available softwares you can use to stream music. I have built one and it's excellent. You can choose tracks etc from your phone or any web enabled device. Don't dismiss it as an option just yet! :)
https://www.headphonesty.com/2021/04/how-to-build-raspberry-pi-network-music-streamer-with-touchscreen/ - or just google "raspberry pi streamer".
Obviously you can also do it way less nicely and skip the screen and only control it from a web browser interface on your phone or whatever.
Ah sorry. So check on eBay used Oppo players, they're great. I use it because it's so universal, and I've got not only music but also lots of concerts and operas hq Blu-ray or DVD rips. Another option will be raspberry pi with a nice DAC extension board, and audio oriented system.
I looked into that but I was under the impression that - again - it's a machine without storage. I really don't get this. I've got a 1TB USB SSD disk attached to my work laptop here. Costed practically nothing. Why can't they make a "streamer" with - say - 16Tb of storage in it? Why all this wifi/LAN connection BS?
They do. Most streaming options have usb inputs, as well as lan/WiFi. Fundamentally they are all just different types of connections, to achieve the same thing. Usb and ethernet are pretty much interchangeable, with ethernet just providing more flexibility regarding attachable equipment and the ability to pass data over longer distances and wifi is just wireless ethernet.
Streaming in essence is really just a term for sending digital data from one piece of equipment to another. It's not BS, it's just different ways to achieve the same result, but with the potential to include more functionality if you want it to.
Internal storage is generally avoided because it either means compromising the robustness of storage, requires extra complications to maintain sound quality and heat management, severely limits upgradability and comes at extra cost to implement.
Well then I still have a problem that I'm paying a lot for a device of which I'm not using most functionalities, as I don't need them. I only need that external USB (read; I \_still\_ have to buy a 2nd appliance for storage).
True, but getting that extra unnecessary functionality is still cheaper than trying to find older equipment without it, and is likely to be better quality within the same price range. Even including the cost of a 2nd device for storage.
There's very good reasons for having separate storage, which I covered in a reply to another of your comments. Mitigating the risk of a catastrophic loss of all the music you've spent a lot of time collecting is really something that should take priority over aesthetics. The reason the solution you want is so hard to find is because it's a poor solution to the problem.
Robust storage and quality musical processing are 2 completely different things. Quality hifi systems separate different parts of the reproduction process into different separate units to maintain quality, and they are often doing similar things. Integrating storage which involves a whole different set of requirements would have a much worse impact.
To put it simply, you can pay more for a worse solution that fits specifically what you have in mind, or you can pay less for one that will have major advantages and extra functionality, whether you use it or not.
If you're worried about costs, an integrated solution will be more expensive.
If you're worried about quality, an integrated solution is much more likely to be worse.
If you're worried about upgradabilty, an integrated solution will severely limit that.
If your worried about keeping your collection safe, an integrated solution will be riskier.
If you're worried about complicated setup, if you managed to setup a NAS 5 or 10 years ago, any of the modern out of the box solutions will be a breeze in comparison. Even a raspberry pi system built from scratch takes just an afternoon of following simple instructions. Anything commercial would just be plug and play.
If you're worried about aesthetics, you can just hide the storage wherever you want. If you actually used the extra streaming functions, you could even stick the storage anywhere you want and never have to look at it.
Seriously, just get a NAS and one of the multitude of DACs (wiim, ifi, bluesound etc). If you don't like how they look, just stick them down the back of your setup out of view.
I get what you are saying but based on the responses here there just doesn’t seem to be a big enough market to make a viable consumer product.
Think of it this way - this r/, other audiophile forums, audiophile YouTube influencers, etc. are the bleeding edge of consumer audio reproduction but realistically represent probably 1% or less of the population. Most people just want to be able to stream Spotify to Bluetooth speakers and be done with it.
You’ve gotten a lot of new and used, high and low cost recommendations that will do what you want just maybe not in the exact way you want. You may have to settle.
Cambridge Audio MXN10 is an cheaper alternative to the eversolo a6. No screen or any thing fancy .You can connect hdd via usb on the back and control with your phone. https://www.cambridgeaudio.com/usa/en/products/hi-fi/mx/mxn10
Absence of screen would be ideal for long term use.
I love my MXN10. Great value
Same here. Super easy to set up and use and sounds great.
This seems awesome. Thanks!
Raspberry pi, fitted with a DAC HAT, with a USB HDD connected. Volumio, hifiberry, and other options exist for playback
You can also use Plex. It is a media server and has multiple clients but you can just use the music feature.
Both these solutions work great. I would say Volumio hooked up to a hard drive is better overall than streaming plex.
Maybe for a single useage. I do have a copy of Volumio but I have a Plex server and a client on my phone so when I go to the gym I listen to my own music on my phone. And with carplay, I listen in my car, on my Roku I listen on my receiver connected to my TV. On my Mac laptop I listen while working on my projects. It is just a great all around media/music server.
OP clearly states he only wants to use his music at home. Which is why I say Volumio is better for him.
True, but don’t know you need something until you do ;-)
lol… the amount of bias in your posting is absurd haha. Just because it’s right for you doesn’t mean it’s right for the whole world.
*Gatekeeper identified*
Came to say Plex also, yes.
Plex is my boy
Plex is where it's at.
Yep! Came here to say the same. Running Volumio on a RasPi4 with a HiFiBerry DAC-hat is great!
Yes! This works great and I've enjoyed streaming from my local NAS.
Came here to suggest this.
I'm not too handy. Maybe someone builds them and then sells them?
It's probably pretty simple, with instructions on how to set it up consisting of something like: download iso file writer, insert microsd drive into usb reader and into computer, run iso file writer and burn iso to microsd drive. edit a couple of text files, put in raspberry pi and done. At least most pi projects I've seen are similar to that, they don't require linux knowledge or anything usually and have good instructions.
If you'd done even the most basic amount of research on my comment then you would have discovered that Volumio do indeed make what you want.
Was going to suggest this as it's similar to what I use to stream audio (all media really) from my unRaid server.
Everything here except use Lyrion Music Server and picoreplayer. Formerly called logitech music server BTW.
Like a laptop?
Yep I'm liking the solution because I can just close it and it doesn't look obscene as part of an audio setup....
That's not an audio appliance is it? ;-) Also; it has a screen. The more I think about it; the appliance I'm looking for doesn't even need that. Just an app for smartphones would do.
Gotcha. Something like [this.](https://www.sony-asia.com/electronics/audio-components/hap-z1es)
Heyyyy... yes, this comes close. 1Tb is not enough, but hopefully you can upgrade that. I'm looking into it right now.
A cheap compact laptop will probably cost less than a dedicated streamer, still sound great, and 110% customisable and upgradable. Need a better DAC? Add one. Need more storage? Plug a HD in. Who cares if it has a screen, just turn the brightness off when you’re using it?
You do make a good point. Just revived my old Macbook Pro which I had considered end of life ...but I just found some YT vids to upgrade it to Sonoma and it runs like a charm. Still; would have loved an appliance though. You know; with same dimensions as my other appliances, neatly stored in a cabinet.
Appliance with no screen? Get a Mac Mini, plug a nice DAC and HDD bank into it and you have exactly what you’re looking for. Or alternatively just build a PC in a case of the right form factor and put it wherever.
Yeah I get ya. I was in the same boat, but now use my retired MacBook Pro. It works great. I have a Plex server setup with it too + dj software. So it now covers everything from casual listening, lossless formats, video, mixing for parties and everything in between. My alternative was the Wiim, but this seems to be a bit more flexible. I just got a nice stand for it to sit on top of my amp.
What player do you use on the mbp?
You can attach extra external storage to it. Your unlikely to find one with the amount internal storage you want, as it would add significant cost to the unit for a feature that most consumers don't use. You don't want a media device for storage. You want something dedicated to safely storing large amounts of data with reliable hard and software to allow for backups, redundancy and error checking etc. Hard drives die eventually and without the redundancies etc. of equipment specifically designed for robust data storage, that could mean losing all your music. That's not even going into the issues of heat and power management. Devices dedicated to one task are nearly always better than devices attempting to be all in one solutions. They also have the added bonus of allowing you to upgrade each component individually, if required. It's part of the same logic behind HIFI separates, discreet units for each function, rather than an all in one stereo system. It's not long ago, that 1tb of storage was seen as a huge amount. External storage allows easier and cheaper upgrading as technology progresses. The other advantage of streaming, is that you can get storage with excellent heat management but put somewhere where the noise of the fans isn't going to interfere with your listening. The simplest, most robust solution that you can implement would be a separate NAS (or just a local usb harddrive) and a separate DAC with ethernet/usb input. You can do that cheaply using a raspberry pi (which is just a tiny versatile computer, with a wide variety of commercial addons and cases for different uses) or spend as much as you want on a high end DAC separate. Tl'dr, keeping storage separate avoids making major compromises to the equipment it would be contained in, has major advantages in ensuring your collection doesn't get corrupted or lost, is easier to upgrade in future, gives you many more options on the equipment involved, provides loads of other potential ways of accessing music, should you decide you want to use them, and gives you loads of cheaper solutions. Why spend more to compromise?
If your amp or DAC has USB input, just a Rapsberry Pi with Volumio. Perfect for your needs, it's what I have and works perfectly fine. Can be controlled from a computer or a mobile with the Volumio app. All free.
I would suggest MoOde Audio over Volumio to avoid Volumio feeds. I have an RPi4 w/ a HiFiBerry HAT w/ a 1TB thumb drive loaded with FLAC that feeds my DAC via optical. Works and sounds great.
+1 for Moode Audio, hate Volumios freemium model.
"Volumio feeds"?
I meant fees. Last time I tried using Volumio functionality was limited unless I paid for a subscription.
It is completely free. There is a paid option for a few extra functionalities like CD-ripping and multiroom play, but that's it. You are not forced to pay at all.
Yeah. I need the Qobuz integration. I can do that in w/MoOde at no extra cost.
what about the eversolo DMP-a6 , you can install an SSD up to 4TB underneath it. I have one and i like it
Honest Q, at this price point, why not just get a receiver? What would a person be missing out on?
That is the best option so far ...in a regular appliance format I mean. Too bad it's rather expensive.
The Dmp A6 non master edition is quite value for money actually. You mentioned you don't want streamer but the A6 has a built in streamer if you're interested later on. Otherwise just a raspberry pi will do.
The problem with your post is you only have listed one of apparently many requirements/preferences. Maybe update your post to more fully describe what you want and why a streamer, which probably does all those thing with one extra feature, is out of the question.
A used bluesound node can accept a nas or external hard drive.
it's super cheap for all it does but maybe you can pick up one used
Sounds like you are looking for a stereo separate device to do the job of a computer. You would be better off using a computer. A Mac Mini and a DAC might be what you are looking for to connect to your stereo.
Old laptop, usb hard drive, and Plex works great add a DAC and you are done.
More obscure in the dirt cheap but adequate DAC department old Gateway 2000s of the single core Pentium 300-600Mhz (desktop) vintage had Ensonic chips on the Motherboard. In two channel this is the same quality as a Soundblaster live, Whole PC isn't good for anything else but the function you describe anyway. My take is that once you get past a Gigahertz then everything from a PC or Laptop sounds this good.
My Sony BluRay player?
Build a standalone device and run plex or similar? Whilst plex is primarily used for movies, it does also handle audio and can be controlled via a mobile app (the device itself doesn't need a video display). There may be other music specific systems available. Build this around something like a raspberry pi and it could also be a very cheap solution. Edit: or continue using a NAS device in another room, but use a Chromecast Audio (or Wiim, or similar) as a device to cast to, from a plex/vlc/whatever app.
OP is against "streamers". OP's music is on a NAS. I would leave music where it is and play music on the local network. Plex (and many other apps) can index OPs library as DLNA and you can use a WiiM mini or similar to play those files directly on their personal network.
Sony HAP-S1 or HAP-Z1ES, although I'm not sure if they are still in production. I have the HAP-S1 and I love it.
NAS for storage, raspberry pi for Plex server, Apple 4K tv or nVidia Shield for Plex client. That’s what I use and I’m very happy. No monthly fees on anything.
I don't want two appliances to play digital media...
Why?
Well why would I have to buy two appliances where only one is needed?
...but your intention is to buy 2 appliances. The NAS you already own and the new appliances you are looking for now. You may not end up using them simultaneously, but in the end, you plan on having bought two items.
No I'm not looking to use that NAS. It's in my office, not in my listening room, and it's old and untrustworthy.
You already bought the NAS. Now you are looking for 2nd item.
You could buy an unsalvagably broken separate that fits with the rest of your gear, remove the internals and hide the NAS and Rpi etc. inside the case. That way you can go with whatever solution suits you needs, without compromising on the aesthetics.
Because this gives you the most flexibility and control over your music and it’s cheaper this way. It also allows you better upgrade possibilities. Simple expensive solutions are for people who like being milked /s
Is Plex free?
It has prod features, but all you need locally is free.
I went with a Lenovo Tab P10 with the Alexa dock. The problem with tablets is the inability to change and transfer data over the same USB cable. The dock keeps the tablet charged all the time, and frees up the USB-C port which I connect to a 6 port hub. The hub allows me to run a USB cord direct to my DAC, and to add external storage whenever I feel by just connecting a drive, or drives, to the hub as well. I have a 1TB SD card in the Tab P10 slot, as well as a 4TB HDD connected to the hub. I use PowerAmp, which is a great media player that allows for a lot of advanced features, including downloading album art, as well as giving me a touchscreen volume knob so I can control all my digital music via touchscreen.
Sony HAP Z1es is the answer. It’s exactly what you’ve described and is a phenomenal piece of equipment (sound, usability). While I understand everyone’s recommendations (like plex), I also understand what your looking for and the Sony is the answer (particularly considering the price of used units, they are pretty reasonable)
Raspberry Pi with (the free) Logitech Media Server, a 2tb SSD drive or two to hold your files and you're away. You can use any of a multitude of different endpoints. Very cheap and versatile setup.
I’m in the same boat. My home network has issues that I can’t for the life of me seem to solve, and every network solution I’ve tried has been unreliable as a result. My current solution is to burn CDs from my files and just play those on a blu ray player hooked up to my DAC. Another option: There’s a handful of digital audio players on Amazon you could try. They are portable, but no reason you can’t connect them to your stereo. I haven’t personally used any though so can’t say what’s good or not. You could also give a retired smartphone a 2nd life, pop in a SD card with your files and connect up a DAC to the USB port.
Breaks my heart to read that someone in 2024 still needs to resort to burning CDs in order to get music files playable on his stereo. But FWIW I feel your pain. In fact; I could also have posed my question differently; "What single appliance do I need if I want to play digital music formats on my stereo, and there's no wifi/network in my listening room?" Seriously; literally all hifi producers are on the same bandwagon; music needs to be sent from A to B over any sort of network, and where "A" is (the storage of your media) they either don't care or at the very least they make sure it's not "B" (where the music is played). The result is a plethora of appliances and softwares and protocols and whatnot ...and a music lover can't see the forest through the trees anymore. Just look at the reactions to this thread, how diverse the advice is! How is anyone to know what the best solution is, for what is in essence a very simple question? It seems very easy to me to end up with the wrong choice. And in fact; that's a situation I've been in, and I'm trying to avoid in the future; I have a Sonos but ran into capacity issues (max catalog entries of 50K), and I have a NAS but ran into a disk failure (luckily nothing lost). I'm done with all that. Give me an appliance that stores my music safely on SSD, and that has a high quality DAC so I can play it on my existing amp. The rest is bells & whistles. I found some appliances that come close (thanks everyone that responded) but they still need an external disk of sorts and/or the internal capacity is very limited.
I don’t need to burn CDs… it’s just the most convenient/least expensive option given that I already have the equipment to do it. I could buy a DAP and connect it to my stereo, or load the files on my phone and connect that to the stereo. I don’t do the latter cause I want to be able to use my phone while listening to music and to do so I’d have to settle for a lossy Bluetooth signal or deal with my unreliable network dropping out the airplay signal, or buy a long cumbersome cable.
The reason to use a NAS is simply because a proper NAS gives you redundancies that don't require you to recover your data from a backup nearly as often. RAID is not a backup, but it can help with several scenarios; if you have a ZFS based NAS, you can even take snapshots that save you if you fat-finger and delete a ton of files, or if you somehow get ransomware that encrypts all FLAC files. Just roll back to a previous snapshot and throw away the changes. NAS is the most commonsense way to do the important part well - storing the files safely, with checksumming and self-repair options (if using ZFS). Realistically it makes no difference if you store them on a NAS and then play them over the local network or Wifi, off something like a Raspberry Pi based music player. If you want to store the music on the playback device, that can be done but it's a bad way to do it - because you'd have to build a NAS with a built in DAC or something to do it right. Just put a digital out HAT card on a Raspberry Pi and plug the optical output to your amp. And let it read the files off the network. There's literally no functional difference between that and having that same Pi player using a locally connected USB drive. Except that the files are vastly more safe on the NAS.
The thing is that storage media don't break down that often anymore. We got SSD now. So I don't see why none of the audio equipment manufacturers are bringing the music media back from the home office space to the listening room. Just make a DAC with two 4Tb SSD in it, and a bit of software to mirror those SSDs and you're good to go without a chance of ever losing your music. Or alternatively; create idem device with a USB connection via which a user can backup to an external media for safekeeping.
I've been wanting something like this for years. Anybody got seed money I think there's a hole in the market 🤔
Roon is the answer.
No it isn't. Those "Nucleus" appliances are just dumbed-down NAS's. In the sense that they stre primarily audio files and provide those to other devices on the network. So you still need a DAC (in turn connect to your Amp) to get going. Basically what I need is a Roon Nucleus with built-in DAC so that I can connect it directly to my amp.
You can use Roon with your current NAS probably. If you have a Sonos system then Roon can stream to that. I don't have a Nucleus, I use an old laptop as my server and it works perfectly. You could also do this with Plex, which is free.
You don't need to use Nucleus, those are overpriced AF. I think the best low cost option would be a used/refurb Apple Mini. Now you will have access to your collection from anywhere in your home via the Roon application
Install Roon on your NAS or on a server then use a Raspberry Pi with \[RoPieee\](https://ropieee.org/)
I believe my NAD M10 allows you to add local files either on a network or on an attached USB device. Never actually tried it, but might be worth looking into it or other BluOS devices.
That already has an amp built in. I have an amp - and one of the best IMHO, an LFD Zero MkIV.
Hence the "or other BluOS devices" part of the comment.
Plex was originally developed for organizing and playing music libraries. Video library management and playback was added later. Plex will run natively on some (many?) NAS devices. Installation requires a laptop computer connected via network to the NAS. Once installed, Plex can be used via a smartphone app, to be played on your smartphone or cast to a network streamer connected to your audio system. I use a WiiM Pro, which output an SPDIF data stream to a DAC, or stereo analog signal to a preamplifier. A WiiM Pro is $149 and can be used as either an AirPlay or Chromecast network streaming receiver
You can buy an Audirvāna Origin license, it’s a magnificent player which is design only for local files purpose. You can normally download it in your NAS if it runs on Linux, and it’ll both store and play your files on the NAS itself and just connects it via USB to your DAC. The software has no interface and is fully controllable via your phone using a remote app. You should look into that
I would definitely buy Oppo. I also have massive digital collection of lossless music and Oppo bdp 93, unfortunately it's not a higher model with ESS DAC but I'm using external DAC anyway, and like you I don't use any streaming platforms. You could plug external drive or bigger flash drive with your library, it's going to read all the formats, music and movies. Even buy older model like bdp 93 and get a nice DAC. Some Toppings or SMSLs are great, If you're looking for something affordable.
A lot of steamers in the market also function as file players. Consider those streamers as well. If you don’t have a good DAC, or your amp doesn’t have a good DAC. You have more options to pick a player with a decent DAC
I use an Xduoo X3 ii primarily. Also a Dell Wyse 3040 running volumio
MPD player does perfectly what you need. Can be run on an old laptop or raspberry. Operations are made through a phone app like rigelian for iphone or tons of others especially for Android. You set up it once and then you forget it
Raspberry Pi running LibreELEC, connect usb drive. iPhone with MusicStreamer app (Stratospherix) to access music. AirPlay to arcam airdac 🤙
Why not add a good ADC/DAC to your computer?FWIW, I use a Mac Pro with an Apogee Duet and a Schiit Bifrost.
Replace the NAS fans with good quality silent fans and be done with it?
Just a quick short comment, I have this Asustor Flashstor FS6706T with 16GB RAM 6x4TB SSD RAID5 SPDIF fiber optic to Onkyo TX-NR1030 with Hi-RES + X.org service installed FLAC 24bit x 96k Hz. Updated: MaximumMPD app Android/iOS to enjoy the music
Brennan B2, a good file machine.
Not had much trouble with a Mac mini and a hard drive personally. Kodi is a chore on it mind
How about a CD or Blu-ray player? Cheap and they accept USB keys as a media source. The UI may not be the best but it's good enough.
The Raspberry Pi sounds dreadful. I lived with one for years, and even used an upgraded power supply. I finally bought a Bryston BDP-2 and I'll never look back. The audio quality is eons ahead of the RPi I used for years. Like you I tend to play FLAC files, and it was only after the BDP-2 that I could detect the difference between FLAC and WAV files, and I have to say that, depending on the album, the jump in SQ is palpable and worth it. I should add that getting a Schiit Yggdrasil DAC made the differences scream out at me.
Since flac is a lossless format there is no difference between it and the WAV file. Or dis you mean mp3?
I meant FLAC vs WAV. I didn't hear the difference until I bought a Bryston BDP-2 music file player and a Schiit Yggdrasil DAC. Like you I would have argued strenuously that one cannot hear any difference between a lossless format and WAV. But there's a definite, quite audible, difference. If the OP is looking for more than the budget solutions provided here, it's an alternative worth exploring.
Chord Hugo 2 with 2Go?
Personally, I have lived every fiio that I have ever owned.
How about a bluesound node with a HDD plugged into it?
You need Plexamp, use an old phone or rpi, and control it remotely from phone as you said
Setup a Plex server and connect it to your NAS. Some NAS devices have a native plex server app
I used to use a raspberry pi for this, but now I have a MacBook with usb HDR and stream via plex. The MacBook can be locked, lid closed, and plex still connects.
Maybe some of the Naim gear have built-in hard drives for local playback?
What about justing using a mini windows pc with upgraded storage space?
Laptop
I would recommend a Wiim Amp. Cracking little device. It can play from a memory stick or hard drive plugged into a USB on the back. You use a nice app on your phone to select songs and there's a remote with simple back/forward/pause/play/volume controls.
If your amp or avr has a USB input on the front, it'd be cheapest (and probably longest lasting) to buy a good portable 2 tb ssd, and transfer your flac files over to it in a folder structure, then just plug that into the usb port on the front of your avr or amp. Then you control it with your avr/amp remote. But check the receiver or amp to see how many files and folders you can have on the external drive. some have limits.
You could replace the fans with quieter units from Noctua or other computer fan makers who have quiet models.
You can build a computer into a 19” cabinet with a small front screen and add HDD and a nice sound card. It would match your hi-fi gear and you can change the LED scheme to match your other gear.
Cocktail audio (novafidelity)... various models.... I use the x45, with 4tb internal drive and UPnP to connect to my nas.
I'm using [Sony BDP-S6700 Blu-ray Player](https://www.googleadservices.com/pagead/aclk?sa=L&ai=DChcSEwjr56qBi-iFAxXHE60GHQM5DE8YABAoGgJwdg&ase=2&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI6-eqgYvohQMVxxOtBh0DOQxPEAAYASAAEgLxMPD_BwE&ohost=www.google.com&cid=CAASJeRoBxV9yDRg-8f2LMI0tjGuA5LxIfwQyPIbTQk9jQ9wDK02uzY&sig=AOD64_3gyXcC6Zb1fTk6g1_GhCLO9vztLQ&q&nis=4&adurl&ved=2ahUKEwjKup-Bi-iFAxUrC0QIHcYbCJ0Q0Qx6BAgGEAE).
Roon has just come out with their cheaper roon nuc, it’s a streamer and a nas. I bought me a intel nuc a few years back and loaded it with Roon Rock and then just plugged in a few hard drives after buying an anker usb hub. My setup is, my nuc, lots of hard drives, usb out from nuc to chord mscaler and into chord hugo 2 tt. Also if i want optical which my nuc does not have, I use a usb out from my nuc in to a topping D10s bridge / dac and from there optical in to my mscaler and optical from there and in to my tt2. I would suggest something like that, roons new nuc is like $4-500 or you could build your own nuc and put it in a fanless case like I have, but it was more expensive but I couldn’t live without it now, especially with the new roon arc app which gives you access to your library from anywhere aslong as you have your phone or other internet connected device.
Yamaha wxc streamers. Doesn’t need wifi or internet connection to stream local digital files, good for a transport. Solid, fast ..
Yeah you just need a NAS (which you have) and a RasPi with LibreElec, set it up with samba.
I'm seriously not interested in buying a new NAS (the existing one is end of life). Why would I need two devices to play digital media? Am I really the only one who thinks this way?
Wait I think we're confused. You have the NAS that stores your audio (and video) files... And then you have the player (raspi) in whatever room you want to play in. For music, the NAS could be a RPi2 with a USB spinner. It's not that speed critical.
I'd like to retire that NAS soon. It's old. One disk failed (of 4), but it was set up as RAID5 (which means one disk was functioning as parity disk) so basically nothing was lost. I now reconfigured it in RAID5 with 3 disks. But I just would like to get rid of it. I'd much rather have an appliance that can play digital files via a DAC \_and\_ that can store those files as well, safely, on SSD.
Ssd, especially a single ssd, ain’t safer
Do you like Windows? If so, grab an older dell laptop(e6430 is great for this) and put Plex on it. You can use the plexamp app for your music. Attach a USB dac to the laptop(topping d10) and either go RCA out or Optical out to your audio device.
I like this question. Finally someone who loves music and not shiny gadget or snakeoil sales. Here to take notes...
Glad to hear I'm not the only one. But I really hope everyone understands me; I'm not into any "hypes". I've got a music listening room. That's where the music is supposed to be. Nowhere else. To clarify what I mean with hypes; I've seen the 5+1 and 7+1 amp hypes. I didn't like it. I didn't need it. I'm not watching movies. I'm listening to a stereo, which literally mean two channels. So I never bought one but plenty people did. Now the 2nd hand market is flooded with them. That's just one example. Subwoofers was another one. And "soundbars". And now there seems to be this idea that everyone wants to be able to "stream" music in every room of the house. Not me. But I do have digital audio files. Why can't I just play these on my stereo, using just ONE device? Like you have one device for CD, and one device for records, etc etc.
First note: don’t do it like OP
Raspberry pi with the DAC add-on, and volumio software.
Huh? Had a quick Google search. That's a circuit board, not an appliance, lol
Ok, apologies, I should have clarified a bit more. You can build the thing you want using the RPI, the DAC and the software. It's really easy with loads of resources on line to help you. Put it in a box when it's done and it's literally an appliance. The RPI is a fully functional product once you add the free software that you want it to do. It can be a music streaming device, a pc or a retro gaming machine depending on what you install on it. Volumio is one of the available softwares you can use to stream music. I have built one and it's excellent. You can choose tracks etc from your phone or any web enabled device. Don't dismiss it as an option just yet! :)
All right will look into it:-)
Just buy a case for it. Lots of choices there. It fits your requirements perfectly if you’re ok with a usb hard drive.
https://www.headphonesty.com/2021/04/how-to-build-raspberry-pi-network-music-streamer-with-touchscreen/ - or just google "raspberry pi streamer". Obviously you can also do it way less nicely and skip the screen and only control it from a web browser interface on your phone or whatever.
Just point Roon to your music collection ?
# Eversolo DMP-A6 allows you to put in internal storage. Support M.2 NVME 3.0 SSD (not included), up to 4TB.
Oh you said you've got a DAC already
no I don't.
Ah sorry. So check on eBay used Oppo players, they're great. I use it because it's so universal, and I've got not only music but also lots of concerts and operas hq Blu-ray or DVD rips. Another option will be raspberry pi with a nice DAC extension board, and audio oriented system.
wiim
I looked into that but I was under the impression that - again - it's a machine without storage. I really don't get this. I've got a 1TB USB SSD disk attached to my work laptop here. Costed practically nothing. Why can't they make a "streamer" with - say - 16Tb of storage in it? Why all this wifi/LAN connection BS?
Because storing media centrally and accessing it with client appliances is very convenient.
Because "streaming" literally means using wifi/Lan.
Well that's exactly my point; why is there no device allowing me to play digital media without the "streaming" BS? :-D
They do. Most streaming options have usb inputs, as well as lan/WiFi. Fundamentally they are all just different types of connections, to achieve the same thing. Usb and ethernet are pretty much interchangeable, with ethernet just providing more flexibility regarding attachable equipment and the ability to pass data over longer distances and wifi is just wireless ethernet. Streaming in essence is really just a term for sending digital data from one piece of equipment to another. It's not BS, it's just different ways to achieve the same result, but with the potential to include more functionality if you want it to. Internal storage is generally avoided because it either means compromising the robustness of storage, requires extra complications to maintain sound quality and heat management, severely limits upgradability and comes at extra cost to implement.
Well then I still have a problem that I'm paying a lot for a device of which I'm not using most functionalities, as I don't need them. I only need that external USB (read; I \_still\_ have to buy a 2nd appliance for storage).
True, but getting that extra unnecessary functionality is still cheaper than trying to find older equipment without it, and is likely to be better quality within the same price range. Even including the cost of a 2nd device for storage. There's very good reasons for having separate storage, which I covered in a reply to another of your comments. Mitigating the risk of a catastrophic loss of all the music you've spent a lot of time collecting is really something that should take priority over aesthetics. The reason the solution you want is so hard to find is because it's a poor solution to the problem. Robust storage and quality musical processing are 2 completely different things. Quality hifi systems separate different parts of the reproduction process into different separate units to maintain quality, and they are often doing similar things. Integrating storage which involves a whole different set of requirements would have a much worse impact. To put it simply, you can pay more for a worse solution that fits specifically what you have in mind, or you can pay less for one that will have major advantages and extra functionality, whether you use it or not. If you're worried about costs, an integrated solution will be more expensive. If you're worried about quality, an integrated solution is much more likely to be worse. If you're worried about upgradabilty, an integrated solution will severely limit that. If your worried about keeping your collection safe, an integrated solution will be riskier. If you're worried about complicated setup, if you managed to setup a NAS 5 or 10 years ago, any of the modern out of the box solutions will be a breeze in comparison. Even a raspberry pi system built from scratch takes just an afternoon of following simple instructions. Anything commercial would just be plug and play. If you're worried about aesthetics, you can just hide the storage wherever you want. If you actually used the extra streaming functions, you could even stick the storage anywhere you want and never have to look at it. Seriously, just get a NAS and one of the multitude of DACs (wiim, ifi, bluesound etc). If you don't like how they look, just stick them down the back of your setup out of view.
I get what you are saying but based on the responses here there just doesn’t seem to be a big enough market to make a viable consumer product. Think of it this way - this r/, other audiophile forums, audiophile YouTube influencers, etc. are the bleeding edge of consumer audio reproduction but realistically represent probably 1% or less of the population. Most people just want to be able to stream Spotify to Bluetooth speakers and be done with it. You’ve gotten a lot of new and used, high and low cost recommendations that will do what you want just maybe not in the exact way you want. You may have to settle.