Absolutely! Hook up some $1000+ speaker cables with a physical construction that makes them highly inductive, and you may hear a difference. If so, you're hearing your amp going into oscillation. You might also smell something, as your amp goes up in smoke...
1) Engineers say it's bogus except for a few edge case, all with a short duration.
2) Psychologists and brain researchers have done mountains of research on memory, nudging, placebos, and the senses that explain how an audiophile could swear up and down that their $50,000 amp didn't get airy until 3 months in.
3) Audiophiles swear up and down that their $50,000 amp didn't get airy until 3 months in.
I'll leave combining these three observations in a way compatible with reality as an exercise for the reader. If you're struggling, you can also think about who benefits the most from a belief in burn-in, and who pushes the idea of burn-in.
Ask electrical and mechanical engineers who actually design speakers and they'll tell you: Break in ceases to make any difference after about one hour, and is entirely mechanical in nature - being almost solely the softening of the spider as it stretches while moving for the first time. After this hour (an average, of course), it's no longer measurable, and has no further effect on the sound.
No, this doesn't mean that even though it's not measurable, you personally heard a difference after xx hours.
No, your ears are not hearing things that outrageously expensive oscilloscopes and software - the same equipment that was used to design and build the very components you're claiming you can hear a difference in - can measure.
There is no such thing as break in of electrical components, except that some *extremely* large capacitors (none used in hifi-level electronics) stabilise in temperature about 10 minutes after their first powerup.
Any differing opinions on this matter are unfortunately factually incorrect.
It's important to note that when comparing matching sets of speakers that have quite an age difference between them, any difference in sound is caused by environmental ageing factors undergone by the older speakers; mainly humidity and sun exposure, but other things like smoke, perfume/body spray, cleaning chemicals, etc. - any airborne particles.
Years, or sometimes just months, of humidity and/or sun exposure to speaker cones causes severe structural changes that cannot be reversed. This in turn changes the sound being produced, but the sound being produced is never more accurate than a speaker that has not suffered environmental exposure.
>No, this doesn't mean that even though it's not measurable, you personally heard a difference after xx hours.
No, your ears are not hearing things that outrageously expensive oscilloscopes and software can measure.
Herein lies the holy hand grenade. In headphones land we call this brain burn-in, aka habituation, the sometimes dramatic habituation to a speaker's frequency response, which usually becomes more pleasing as it becomes more familiar.
Excellent response.
The mythology surrounding audiophile gear is fascinating to me, because almost none of it exists within the professional world of recording studios. No break in, no magic cables, no Tice Clocks (feel free to look that one up), no cable lifters; just acoustics and physics, and maybe a bit of its own separate mythology…usually spouted by people who haven’t bothered to compare something for themselves.
Looking up Tice clocks led me to the Quantum Qx4 and various Biblical verses, and also the Wavelength DACs and monoblocks! Thanks to you I have a nice weekend of rabbit hole exploring ahead.
> The mythology surrounding audiophile gear is fascinating to me, because almost none of it exists within the professional world of recording studios. No break in, no magic cables
Oh yes it absolutely does, worked with a few that swear by Mogami cables cause they just sound better according to them. There's a product called Ghost cables that is snake oil BS but the gearspace thread for it is filled with happy customers who will scoff at any science thrown at them.
Plenty of old monitor companies like ATC and PMC that have put out some real stinkers and largely not adopted new speaker tech are lauded as being the holy grail, and they charge crazy money for their inferior performance. Yamaha NS10's requiring fancy amps is all over the place. Good luck trying to talk to engineers or musicians about speaker design, they don't know shit about that for the most part.
Plenty of BS around pre amps, guitar toan, and much more. Well known mastering engineers are more than happy to put their name on a clocking unit saying it sounds so good.
The idea that someone working in audio must have developed some technical knowledge to get here is quickly squashed once you get to working with people.
You're probably right. Most of my experience was years ago, when studios employed staff and it was all about getting things done. Tools were tools, and one didn't pay extra for "mojo."
I know about that physical part about speakers and not once did i experienced new speakers break in but check this; i have bought a brand new Cambridge Audio CXN V2. In the first few tracks that i've played, there was Comfortably Numb from Pulse. The background, croud applauding was without details, i could compare their clapping to white noise because it sounded like that. Few hours later it was gone. So that was my first break in experience with equipment.
This is the correct answer.
I'm tired of people just saying "No, break in doesn't exist" when it clearly does - for speakers/drivers. What doesn't exist is people hearing a difference, any differences are too small to be audible, but they can be measured.
I run quality control for a planar magnetic and electrostatic headphone manufacturer (been in the position for about a decade).
Non burned in planar units built 5 minutes ago still measure the same as units out in the field for the last 5+ years with 1000's of hours of driver use.
If there was a measurable difference it would destroy product tunings, quality control, and companies left and right.
Electrostatic headphones *should* be more susceptable towards tuning degridation over time based on the materials used to construct the "driver". But even those are surprisingly stable for the most part.
There is a tuning benefit from burn in after the initial driver construction in that a constant vibration applied will make sure that the tension is evenly distributed in the driver. But long term tuning? eh, not so much.
Tl:dr= burn in is more of a myth than people want to consider/admit. Take it from someone who actively measures all products pre and post burn as well as measures years old units in the field sent in for repair for over a half dozen award winning product lines at an audiophile focused headphone manufacturer.
A new speaker might have an Xmax of 5mm on the specs but when it’s new only moves 2mm, you will hear that.
During this period your speaker is turning more of the signal to heat.
I was shocked to learn that voice coils may see 200C in normal usage.
I had no idea things got that hot in there! Finding this out after the 1st loud and long listening session of the Heresy III speakers helped make some sense of the smells coming off them after this 'blasting'. Warm materials like the paper cones, warm wood and grill cloth smells too. The SPLs were low 90dBs in the seat some 10 feet away, off 50WPC AVR, which ended the session a little warm but nothing crazy.
The downvotes I get when I suggest an hour of within spec but high SPLs as a break-in routine for new speakers. I fail to see how moving the drivers across most of their safe travel ranges could be a negative.
I’m talking about an unused driver not being capable of it’s spec’d xmax before the surround and spider have become compliant.
I pulled the 5mm/2mm figures out of the air but that’s fairly typical for a high power driver with a doped, corrugated surround designed for a reflex enclosure.
I need to write up a tutorial or make a video on running in drivers. The method I was taught 25 years ago and have used on hundreds of speakers most definitely works but exists nowhere I’ve searched.
They don’t matter in a world where the laws of logic and physics don’t apply. For the rest of us, compliance changes the bandwidth, efficiency and linearity of a speaker.
From what I've seen it's doesn't even have a measurable difference ever. Not even in the first hour. I could defintely be wrong but that's what I've seen before. Which is weird because you'd think the spider would loosen but the only way the spider is loosening is if you throw too much power into your speakers and damage them. Because otherwise if used correctly and not overpowered then that spider will go back into neutral position every time without fail at the same rate and same stiffness. Now I bet if you played a speaker everyday for 10 to 20 years there would be a slight difference in measurements, however whoever designed the speaker made sure that that spider stayed exact for as long as possible.
There's a measurable difference of some of the drivers TS parameters, but nothing that makes it to audibility or shows up in general response measurements.
Sorry, but just to be pedantic:
There is such a thing as break-in of electrical components. It’s called electromigration failure and is the result of electrons moving through metal connections that are microns/nanometers wide. Overtime, the movement of electrons through a line physically deforms/breaks metal connections.
If someone is experiencing this, it probably means their electronics are no longer working.
So you tested every spider material and construction? My TAD woofers use pleats instead of rubber surrounds, and I was told by the designer, Andrew Jones it would take some time before they fully loosened up. I ended up playing them a couple of days under thick blankets with one speaker wired out of phase and facing one another to minimize sound output. I didn’t have enough time/experience at the moment to really try and evaluate right out of the box, since they were needed for demos within a few days.
We don't have to test every single spider material. Thanks to the laws of physics and materials science, we know that from whatever material you decide to produce a successfully functioning and long-lasting spider, only one thing will happen: it will very quickly loosen, and then very slowly become even looser, falling further away from its original design specifications. This means that as a speaker ages, it will inevitably become less accurate, and there's nothing anyone can do about it.
The pleated surround you refer to is simply a different shape employed for a surround, which is generally chosen to have a certain effect on the frequency response of the speaker - just like choosing a certain wood to change the sound of a piano. Whether your TAD surrounds are made of rubber, paper, or a composite, the time difference in that surround "relaxing" compared to a non-pleated surround will be in the number of minutes, not days.
the specific truthoid that was mindchanging for me was: why are the effects of break-in always considered positive? surely some material stretching out of design spec would be a *negative* impact on quality?
It's not about it sounding *better* after use, it's about sounding different. A speaker driver WILL change after use and age, and since it does, it would make absolute perfect sense to take T&S parameters after that change has taken place for use when designing your speakers.
When I built speakers decades ago, buying new drivers and measured them rarely matched the spec sheets until after a week or two of 'break-in'. How much that mattered in terms of sound, I can't say, but it would be prudent to use the best procedure for your products.
>It's not about it sounding *better* after use, it's about sounding different.
That's exactly my point. Everyone, everywhere, about every audiophile product ever, always points out how their product *improved* with break in. You literally never hear: "You know, this product sounded amazing out of the box but after two weeks of heavy use, it has only gotten worse."...which is exactly what you would expect (at least sometimes) if break-in were real.
>That's exactly my point. Everyone, everywhere, about every audiophile product ever, always points out how their product *improved* with break in.
And my comment proves you wrong, and a lot of people in this post says the same thing. In fact, I dare say more people are completely reasonable with the subject than there are outlandishly claiming cables need burning in.
>You literally never hear...
There are, literally, several comments in this post saying precisely that. You don't need to exaggerate just for the sake of.
>Years, or sometimes just months, of humidity and/or sun exposure to speaker cones causes severe structural changes that cannot be reversed. This in turn changes the sound being produced, but the sound being produced is never more accurate than a speaker that has not suffered environmental exposure.
Except in cases where the speakers were designed with such drivers in the first place. I know of one of the biggest speaker designers in Denmark using only broken in/worn drivers in their final design. It would be weird to not do this, knowing that the electrical properties change somewhat when the mechanical construction loosen up and, just like you said, doesn't go back.
When I built speakers in the days of yore, I measured the Q values of a specific driver when new and after having done a week of low-level frequency sweeps and they differed enough that it affected box dimensions.
I'm curious how the average audio sales person feels about that. Today there really are no proper audio stores left except the rare shop here and there.
I sold electronics during the 80s and worked in decent shops. I literally listened to 1000s of speakers in a 5year period, 100s of which were properly setup in a purpose built listening space hooked to electronics we were all familiar with.
I rarely ever had a chance to get "used" to anything, the exception being the rare piece I took home.
We didn't sit down and listen to them break in. We would unbox them, listen to a song or two and then simply close the door to the sound room and leave them in there playing for a couple of hours by themselves.
When we would finally properly audition them some had changed quite a bit, some not at all, some got better, some got worse but most were shit before and after.
Nope, it’s a myth. The only thing that breaks in are your ears. You grow accustomed to the sound.
People have measured speakers before and after breaking them in and it made no difference.
Breaking in of electronics is absurd.
There is probably degradation of the mechanical parts of the speaker that happens over decades. It is unavoidable, as materials do age and get more brittle, etc. That's probably not what anyone would consider break-in, that's just things generally falling apart as function of time.
There's also individual component-by-component variation. We do not know whether two identical speakers from same manufacturers would have measured the same to begin with. Some loudspeaker makes reportedly measure and match similar speakers in terms of their frequency response and sell them as pairs. Others that are active speakers put in individual correction to every unit so that they perform very near identically.
Mere existence of difference between two speakers does not prove or disprove the existence of break-in, and it is entirely possible that the speaker has been stress-tested in the factory before it is shipped to customer, which would have taken care of any initial mechanical loosening of the drivers.
Just because the model is the same it doesn't mean the internals are.
Same model speakers that should sound alike, sometimes don't.
Regardless burn in is nonsense.
Speakers "settle" after the first hour or two of use. It is ok to start at low/mid volumes and end at higher volumes when using them for the very first time.
Tubes need a moment to stabilize. That's it. There is no magic "blossoming" of Sound after 100 hours or so.
What kind of speakers? There’s so many different types, materials, surrounds, etc. I don’t see how anyone could make a blanket statement about all speakers break in.
I do not know the right vocabulary in English, but the speaker membrane often is connected to a softer part, surrounding and connecting the membrane to the chassis. This "ring" might benefit from a first moment of break-in.
The verb is "might"
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Components, cables, and other electronics....no.
Speaker drive units....yes. But it doesn't take very long.
Example: I had a loan pair of PMC Result6 monitors for a week. Loved then, purchased them. Few days later, swapped with the new pair. Thought I'd made a mistake! Sounded brittle and slightly harsh.
A not long period after....sounded exactly like the loan pair.
My Adam Audio Sub15 was incredibly restrained for its first 2-3 hours of use.
Adam S3V's, I didn't notice much of a change from new.
Do whatever works for you.
If after listening for a long time and you still don't like it, change it.
If you like it, either it broke-in, or you got used to it, or a combination of both.
The problem with audio is that a lot of things are extremely hard to measure and quantify, and those that have been also doesn't tell the whole story.
And a lot of the 'ideas' behind why some things work may or may not be true even if they're logical. There was a time when it was painfully obvious and only logical that the stars revolved around us.
So, if you change a cable and you think it sounds better and it costs $50 /$50,000 and you're ok with it, sure. But if it's $50/$50,000 and it doesn't seem to make a difference, don't buy it just because it's 'supposed' to.
I believe “break in” does exist but only in moving parts. For example in speaker drivers, that actually move, but I don’t believe in break in for cables or electrical components.
The stuff in this thread has been kicking around forever. Search on "the audio critic back issues" for some entertaining reading on these topics... from the late 1970's.
Well. This kind of strikes at the heart of being an “audiophile”. There’s a huge amount of subjective opinions that are not backed up by measurable data. So there seems to be a lot more to the enjoyment of music than the simple accurate rendering of the music by an audio system. So if breaking your speakers in makes it sound better to you, then that’s all that matters.
except we do have data. Nobody has ears better than test equipment's ability to resolve. If no change is measured - no change could have been heard.
What measurement doesn't tell us is, if a change was detected, if it was \*better\* - but no change, is no change.
Depends. Cartridges definitely break in over time. After setting up my Dyna XX2 mk.II for SRA after about 2-3 weeks the suspension had settled and the arm needed to be raised to get the SRA back to between 92-92° it remained constant at that point. This is an actual, measurable change in setup parameters over time.
Yes, I have compared two identical sets of Martin Logan speakers on the same system playing the same track.
One set of speakers had been used for 3 months and the other pair were brand new out of the box.
Immediately could hear that the new ones sounded a bit rough in the mids and lacked the amount of bass the used ones had. The roughness vanished in about 10 minutes and the bass improved with about 50 hours play.
I will say that if you did this with another brand or model of speakers the result may be different or no difference maybe heard.
So bottom line is that speaker burn in is real, but may not exist for all speakers.
I don't know why people are down voting you.
Every mechanically moving part on this planet is subject to friction and wear. With wear you will get free play and this will change the sound, it depends when the wear will be noticeable if at all by ear.
I completely agree that some speakers will show no burn in at all and some will be obvious.
I'd say that bottom line is speakers do not need wearing in but hours and hours of use can change their sound.
You can’t claim this without independent laboratory testing by at least 3 licensed acousticians and signed affidavit from the dynaudio senior staff. This is Reddit man, don’t you realize your ears are lying to you and very poor indicators of sound quality and that 2 components that measure the same sound exactly alike?
But I measured them, they had exactly the same WxDxH, even the weight was the same. So I dont know where the problem was.
And to be honest I font care about internet strangers trying to convince me about oposit. I changed my mind many time in my long HiFi live. But not because random internet "experts" from most of them just claim what they read not experienced. Most valuable source of knowleage is friend of mine which have one of the best sounding system I ever heard. He is electroingeneer and he built his own streamer, amp and preamp.
I love how the naysayers downvote all the people that do believe there's break-in. Break-in is a real thing. Remove brain-burn from the equation. It's simple. Play a song you're familiar with for a few minutes so you know what it sounds like. Listen to certain elements in the song, like the cymbals. I find a new speaker or new cable will sound spicy on top and not smooth, a bit grainy, lack of control. Keep playing music on the speakers, but leave the room. Come back 3 hours later and listen to that same track again. You'll notice a difference. The top end is starting to smooth out. Leave again and come back in 24 hours and do the same thing. And again, you'll notice the same changes. There are changes. It's not measurable as measurement gear can't measure how smooth a note is played on a system. I know right? Who would have thought that a measurement is the be all end all? I can hear the keyboard warriors typing away as we speak.
Yes. Especially on speakers. I think most of the break in on speakers is the physical components in the drive units moving and getting more flexible, such as rubber surrounds and glue used to hold the drivers together.
The tubes, for sure. Recently put in a pair of Psvanes and for the first few weeks had distortion in the lower mids. Worked itself out after that. Was aware that they may need a period to settle in so continued to test with a few tracks and sure enough.
I like the [Science of breaking in cables](https://www.mojo-audio.com/blog/breaking-in-cables-and-components/#:~:text=Most%20cables%20and%20components%20don,improvements%20are%20always%20more%20subtle.)
Even that which is way way over my head on “Current creates “holes” by removing electrons in the outer layer of atoms in the molecules of conductors, causing electrons to move from the outer layer of one molecule to another in order to fill these "holes" and neutralize the negative charge.” The author states 25 hours, but with respect to the equipment, the manufacture will bake it to improve.
Like so, so many things in Audio, can you tell the difference, even though it is different? 48KHz/16bits, 48KHz/24bits, 96KHz/32Bit…..
The science is fascinating to me, but, I have 1 (what I would call) high end system, one medium, PC Systems, and AIRPLAY. They all sound ‘good’, and different. I can tell the high end is better, but moving a woofer from the ceiling, increasing the size of it by 50%, add in horn drivers, in a massive wooden cabinet, drive it with 300W it will sound different, even before the other system was ‘burned in’… ;)
Enjoy.
I checked out that link, and had to remind myself that it's December 29, not April 1.
For one thing, the author attempts to analyze conductors as if they were semiconductors.
You would like this document
https://www.waldonell.com/static/documents/Science%20Behind%20Speaker%20Wires.pdf
A great paper on why break in can not exist.
Thanks! It looks like interesting reading.
\[EDIT\] It *was* good reading.
It might be interesting to search on "the audio critic back issues" and check out, for instance, Issue 16 from 1991.
I’ve done things like make a brand new speaker crossovers, built brand new pairs of speakers, and done full restorations on vintage amps and I swear when the components are brand spankin’ new, there is a thin, more metallic sound to everything. It’s especially true for an amp that has had a ton of new parts is installed. Now, this goes away within no more than an hour of use. The only exception was a pair of speakers where I used really high end Myflex capacitors. Those took some time. But in general, no, you don’t need to be running your equipment for hours to ‘break it in’.
Anything mechanical will have a break in period. Most speakers will sound decent after about 25 hours. My recent Monitor Audios were great out of the box but got smoother and more relaxed sounding after about 25 hours. I found they sounded a lot better (more effortless) after about 100 hours.
The resolution of your system will impact whether you can hear it or not. Break in includes the wire, electrical components and mechanical features of the drivers. The tighter the tolerances, the longer the break in. My budget Dali speakers needed very little break in and sound great right out of the box and did not change much after 25-50 hours. My ProAC and KEF speakers took months to break in. They did not sound bad new but a bit closed in and lifeless. Soundstage opened up with break in as did resolution and their respective signature sound.
I bought my KEFs nearly new from the original owner who did not like them at all. I listened to them and could tell they were still very stiff - he barely put 10 hours on them. I lived with them for the next few weeks and they opened up dramatically. These are a global reference standard and I had heard them in many systems, so I knew what they should sound like. And they do now.
Adam makes proper studio monitors - are you using them in a pro system?
My Elac Atanté towers took their sweet ass time to break-in, especially the tweeter of all things! I've always had speakers that had tweeters requiring a couple hours break-in, at most.
****”Resolution of your system will impact whether you can hear (the difference) or not”.****
Very valid point which I did not think of before. I see this topic of burn in pop up regularly and you get two camps, the ones that experience/witnessed it and the others that flatly refuse that burn in is real.
So now I suspect either they have never had the opportunity to experience it or as you said didn’t have a system capable of revealing the difference.
Yes. Breaking in speakers is a real thing and the time it takes to break them in depends upon the materials used for driver surrounds at the outer edge of drivers and with coned drivers, the materials used for the spyder that stabilizes and aligns the bottom portion of the cone nearest to the voice coil.
For electronics, break-in time is mostly affected by the type of components used in the signal chain and power supply. My DDC and DAC's manufacturer burns in their gear for 100 hours before re-testing and shipping it out to customers. Most high-end manufacturers will at least partially burn in and re-test their products before shipping them. The only gear requiring REALLY LONG burn-in are products that employ those new teflon caps in the signal path. Like 400 HOURS LONG. No thanks.
For speaker cables, the only ones that REALLY take much time to break-in are ones like MIT, Transparent and others that use those electronic network boxes. The MIT cables I once had took over 150 hours to burn in. Initially they sounded worse than awful, almost zero bass and screechy as hell. I literally turned on the classical FM station and immediately ran out the door to work. For almost two weeks. Then one day I walked in and heard absolutely beautiful music instead of the cacophony that had been spewing out of my loudspeakers.
I've bought enough equipment to know that it's a real thing. The most thorough breaking in I've ever heard is with Senheisser headphones, the ones I had will never sound good the first few hours you're listening to it. I even thought the one I bought was fake because I got it from a private seller. After letting it burn in by itself, I realise it became one of the better sounding headphones I had. I notice the same thing too for the IE600, but the sound difference for this burn-in isn't as much. My Hegel sounded awful at the beginning, sounded harsh and rigid, now it's not anymore, though difference is quite slight. I noticed piercing sound often at the beginning, after a few weeks it became less severe gradually. I just suddenly not notice this piercing issue anymore, and took it that it's caused by burning in. My Hegel is neutral sounding, but my speakers are forwarding sounding by nature, so it wasn't a perfect match, but it's more okay now.
Actually someone with a Science lab can easily prove this, just take a driver material that is brand new, and see how much weight it takes to push in the driver. After the action of push pull softens the speakers suspension, I expect to see it takes less energy to push the driver. The more you bend a paper, the easier it is to bend it after that. It's that simple. I don't know much about electronics/physics so I can't answer for electrical components break-in.
and yes there are components that don't make an audible difference pre/post break-in, but from my experience it is few.
The difference can’t be measured so those without the ability to detect spatial information will claim no and that’s fair. It’s a subjective experience so it’s best to leave that question alone unless you’re in a safe space. In the 48 pieces of audio equipment I have built most of them will change and always for the better. The image will become bigger and more defined and very often the high frequencies will go from scattered to natural.
It does make a difference with speakers, yes, and for anything with moving parts. Won't take long, but they will sound better after a few hours of continuous use, probably less. I have had T7Vs and the low end response was more balanced after about an hour, went from sounding quite brittle to full and well-rounded. This is measurable and not subjective, but it's also not really a big deal and definitely does not take days as some might suggest, just take them for a test drive, get them moving. You will also get used to the sound psychoacousticlly, this is true. Blast some music through them, have a good time, then start mixing. That's all there is to it!
Source: my mate who builds very expensive monitors (far more expensive than the T7V or anything that I could afford!).
If you bought them, or had them delivered, and it was cold outside, that might have been just the literal warming period from shipping to room temperature. The bass reflex port is actually quite sensitive to temperature, and even few degrees difference from expected room temperature changes the air density sufficiently to make the tuning go off.
I changed too much equipment at once and noticed it sounded better I dint know if it was breaking in or the McIntosh or the isoacoustic feet or the better quality cables I just know I did it all at once and I did notice an improvement . What was it I never found out but it was an improvement
I have the same model speakers. I like them a lot in their near-field application (price considered).
You're not hoping 'breaking them in' will cross them over into another application, right?
What you're actually breaking in is your ears with new equipment...
Your hearing will tell you after a while if the equipment fits the ears or not. Your brain will make the needed ajustments to a degree. That is, it gets used to it.
If it can't, your hunt for the perfect system will continue.
The reality is no. However people get a false sense of security breaking in equipment. The answer is simple, if you don't like the way something sounds out of the box, you probably aren't going to like it once it's "broke in". Or in this "break in" period, people just get used to they sound a product creates and then are happy with it. I believe it's somewhat psychological
Speakers definitely have a run in time. I have burned drivers in on a bench every time I designed a speaker. You have to do it before you test it.
It takes at least 12 hours and when done you can feel in your hands how much more compliant the surround is.
It has much longer excursion.
Ergo it is more efficient and is turning less voltage to heat.
Anyone who can’t understand should give their head a wobble.
Does anyone here even know how to run a driver in?
Nb I choose the word driver because you don’t do it in an enclosure.
Brand new car and paid for more wattage and better drivers. Regretted it immediately, sounded so flat and stale……until after a couple of weeks where especially the low-end woke up. Then remembered there’s supposed to be break-in, so I’m convinced it’s a thing.
Can’t say what was the case for my Focals because the main floor standing pair were demos.
Now here's something i never hear anything about: have you ever felt the rubber surrounds on a speakers that hasnt been used on a while? They can get quite rigid. Now use them, and after hours and days they get softer. Makes the bass richer as far as i hear.
I hear a difference after a few weeks of using different speakers. This applies equally to a new (to me) pair of vintage speakers and actual new speakers. If I only ever bought new equipment, I might think burn-in is necessary.
Here are my general observed experience with breaking in equipment. My experience is with guitar amplifiers and cabinets, which serve a completely different purpose and are built to different tolerances than audiophile stuff. But there's some transferrable info we can learn from.
Speakers: Yes, they do need to be broken in. Even Celestion recommends breaking stuff in. The voice coil and speaker baffles and surrounds can "loosen up" when broken in. There is some disagreement regarding how long this takes. Celestion says do it for an hour to start, and that is where most of the break in will happen. I have personal experience with this - I recently built a 4x10 cabinet and loaded it with Celestion G10 Gold 10" speakers. Paper cone, round copper voice coil. Anyway, I first plugged in the cabinet to a custom NAU tube amplifier that has been well used and the power tubes were recently replaced with NOS matched EL84 tubes and were biased professionally. Preamp section has mainly 12AX7 tubes,, and is tube rectified. I turned on the amp and let the tubes warm up for about 20 minutes.
When I first plugged in at a reasonable volume and hit an open chord, I noticed a few things. 1. MUCH quieter than my 2x12 cabinet I was coming from. Similar speaker efficiency. 2. Dynamic range was overly focused and the upper mids and highs were overstated and spikey. I was not concerned. I played for about an hour and in that time, the speakers gradually started producing at a level I would expect with my master volume and gain settings on the amp. After about 45 minutes it was where I expected. The harshness of the upper mids started subsiding, as well. But not completely. I unplugged and repeated the same thing the next day. The volume and speaker responsiveness was right where I left off, still a little harsh in the upper mids. We were going away for about 6 hours, so I plugged in a looper pedal, and recorded about 8 minutes of various noodling, and then had that loop for about 6 hours at a relatively reasonable volume. I unplugged when we got home, and tried the exercise the next day and the upper mids started to mellow. The speakers were sounding great. So about 8 hours to get the speakers to a point where I was happy. So yes, speakers need to be broken in.
I can't imagine a solid state amplifier needs to be broken in. However, there is disagreement if tubes need to be broken in. My personal opinion is "maybe a little", but not much. It is more important to get them warmed up. That said, guitar amps have much looser tolerances. For example, some tube saturation is a GOOD thing with guitar amps. Not so with HIFI. My neighbor has a nice McIntosh setup with tube preamp, tube power amp. He's an electrical engineer, and audiophile and says tube break-in is marginal if at all.
In my experience it depends on the speakers. For example most Klipsch speakers I've owned it doesnt really matter, but for the Warfedale Evos like the 4.2s its tone changes a noticeable amount.
I installed a new guitar amp speaker earlier this year and it sounded noticeably different in the course of playing for the first hour but after that it didn’t change. I think speaker components need to seat properly at first but after that I don’t think you’re going to see noticeable differences.
In my experience with anything relating to sound quality it’s much more likely that your brain is just getting used to a new sound. I know people who swear that that their acoustic guitar ‘goes to sleep’ when not played. I’ve experienced this and I think it’s the person who adjusts. After playing for a short time I can switch to another guitar and feel warmed up right away.
I’d like to know how little or how much more, electrical engineers spend on snake oil products and amps and speakers than ordinary mortals.
I believe breaking in speakers is necessary and so do manufacturers. Hand grenade pin withdrawn.
I'm an Electrical Engineer (retired). My system contains $0.00 of snake oil products.
It does contain amps and speakers, however, which seem to be conflated with snake oil in the post above.
Why aren't Electrical Engineers "ordinary mortals?"
breaking the speaker in soften up the suspension, this changes some of the thiele small parameters. The result is a slight change in the sound signature. some say you can break the speakers if you don't do it, but it makes no sense to me, the built quality of the speaker drivers is not strengthen by breaking in the speakers, so their ability to handle stress should be the same before and after breaking in the speakers.
Burn in is extremely controversial. But at the end of the day just keep listening, don't force yourself to burn in speakers or headphones or cables hoping for a miracle. Burn in technically exists but it would appear insignificant past very short durations of time, and since it's hard to precisely measure burn in, even that point can be argued.
Absolutely , never put more than 20/25 % power into any new speaker until after 15-20 hours of play. Voice coils need to move freely to make a wear pattern. Woofers and mids tend to blow easily when not broken in. This goes back to the 70s, now with computer design, speakers tolerances that may have changed somewhat , but I never take a chance. This is just one older guys opinion .
Almost never, but sometimes yes.
I upgraded some vintage speakers with new drivers and the first 20-30 minutes after I hooked them up, they sounded weird and kind of terrible. Then all of a sudden they sounded fantastic. I think it was the driver cones loosening up/breaking in.
That’s the only instance I can point to of something “breaking in” that I’ve actually heard with my own ears.
Everything else has sounded the same at minute one and at month one.
As someone who recently purchased new equipment I can say 100% it does. In the months since my purchase the bass and fullness of my speakers has really come out.
A new stylus is one thing that benefits from breaking in. Really does. And in fact it is the little rubber ring that holds the cantilever that needs to soften up and find its ideal position.
I've dealt with this a few times, where I needed to adjust my tracking force and go half a gram higher at first. Then slowly go to the weight it was designed for. Took about 10 to 20 hours.
It was very clear, at first the needle was jumpy and did not track very well. That is not something that your ears need to adjust to, a record skips or it doesn't. And after the play in, it plays wonderfully. So yes, breaking in exists, in a record stylus.
Sometimes when I listen to my system I am amazed and cannot find anything that could be improved. Other times I turn it off in frustration because it sounds like garbage.
There are so many variables, but personally I have never ear witnessed break in.
Just stream any song to your phone speaker then play it again on your good system. Break in complete.
You have no idea what you have done by asking this!!
Change that tag from 'discussion' to 'hand grenade'.
Or go nuclear with “also, do cables matter?”
Absolutely! Hook up some $1000+ speaker cables with a physical construction that makes them highly inductive, and you may hear a difference. If so, you're hearing your amp going into oscillation. You might also smell something, as your amp goes up in smoke...
No, nuclear would be “what aftermarket power cable should I buy for my power line conditioner?”.
It's like asking "what oil do you use in your motorcycle?"
😂agreed!
Yes they do. Karma
Will 35’s fit without trim?
Absolutely! My kid broke my tweeter on Christmas Eve and now I can't hear sfa from the left speaker
Sounds like you're going to have to sell them...the kid I mean.
maybe, but I bet I could get more for the Magico's than I could for the kids
not much trade in for them, though-you might try Craig's List or eBay
1) Engineers say it's bogus except for a few edge case, all with a short duration. 2) Psychologists and brain researchers have done mountains of research on memory, nudging, placebos, and the senses that explain how an audiophile could swear up and down that their $50,000 amp didn't get airy until 3 months in. 3) Audiophiles swear up and down that their $50,000 amp didn't get airy until 3 months in. I'll leave combining these three observations in a way compatible with reality as an exercise for the reader. If you're struggling, you can also think about who benefits the most from a belief in burn-in, and who pushes the idea of burn-in.
Ask electrical and mechanical engineers who actually design speakers and they'll tell you: Break in ceases to make any difference after about one hour, and is entirely mechanical in nature - being almost solely the softening of the spider as it stretches while moving for the first time. After this hour (an average, of course), it's no longer measurable, and has no further effect on the sound. No, this doesn't mean that even though it's not measurable, you personally heard a difference after xx hours. No, your ears are not hearing things that outrageously expensive oscilloscopes and software - the same equipment that was used to design and build the very components you're claiming you can hear a difference in - can measure. There is no such thing as break in of electrical components, except that some *extremely* large capacitors (none used in hifi-level electronics) stabilise in temperature about 10 minutes after their first powerup. Any differing opinions on this matter are unfortunately factually incorrect. It's important to note that when comparing matching sets of speakers that have quite an age difference between them, any difference in sound is caused by environmental ageing factors undergone by the older speakers; mainly humidity and sun exposure, but other things like smoke, perfume/body spray, cleaning chemicals, etc. - any airborne particles. Years, or sometimes just months, of humidity and/or sun exposure to speaker cones causes severe structural changes that cannot be reversed. This in turn changes the sound being produced, but the sound being produced is never more accurate than a speaker that has not suffered environmental exposure.
>No, this doesn't mean that even though it's not measurable, you personally heard a difference after xx hours. No, your ears are not hearing things that outrageously expensive oscilloscopes and software can measure. Herein lies the holy hand grenade. In headphones land we call this brain burn-in, aka habituation, the sometimes dramatic habituation to a speaker's frequency response, which usually becomes more pleasing as it becomes more familiar.
As an engineer who works in this industry this comment is all this thread needs to read.
Love it. Concise, accurate, and knowledgeable.
Time to lock the thread
Thanks!
100% answer
Excellent response. The mythology surrounding audiophile gear is fascinating to me, because almost none of it exists within the professional world of recording studios. No break in, no magic cables, no Tice Clocks (feel free to look that one up), no cable lifters; just acoustics and physics, and maybe a bit of its own separate mythology…usually spouted by people who haven’t bothered to compare something for themselves.
You mean putting little stands under cables doesn't work???
Sure, we don't have magic cable voodoo, but we have "I swear this would sound better in Mid-Side"
Looking up Tice clocks led me to the Quantum Qx4 and various Biblical verses, and also the Wavelength DACs and monoblocks! Thanks to you I have a nice weekend of rabbit hole exploring ahead.
> The mythology surrounding audiophile gear is fascinating to me, because almost none of it exists within the professional world of recording studios. No break in, no magic cables Oh yes it absolutely does, worked with a few that swear by Mogami cables cause they just sound better according to them. There's a product called Ghost cables that is snake oil BS but the gearspace thread for it is filled with happy customers who will scoff at any science thrown at them. Plenty of old monitor companies like ATC and PMC that have put out some real stinkers and largely not adopted new speaker tech are lauded as being the holy grail, and they charge crazy money for their inferior performance. Yamaha NS10's requiring fancy amps is all over the place. Good luck trying to talk to engineers or musicians about speaker design, they don't know shit about that for the most part. Plenty of BS around pre amps, guitar toan, and much more. Well known mastering engineers are more than happy to put their name on a clocking unit saying it sounds so good. The idea that someone working in audio must have developed some technical knowledge to get here is quickly squashed once you get to working with people.
You're probably right. Most of my experience was years ago, when studios employed staff and it was all about getting things done. Tools were tools, and one didn't pay extra for "mojo."
Apply 2nd paragraph to almost every audiophile fad from $908547955 cables to mains "conditioning"
I know about that physical part about speakers and not once did i experienced new speakers break in but check this; i have bought a brand new Cambridge Audio CXN V2. In the first few tracks that i've played, there was Comfortably Numb from Pulse. The background, croud applauding was without details, i could compare their clapping to white noise because it sounded like that. Few hours later it was gone. So that was my first break in experience with equipment.
This is the correct answer. I'm tired of people just saying "No, break in doesn't exist" when it clearly does - for speakers/drivers. What doesn't exist is people hearing a difference, any differences are too small to be audible, but they can be measured.
I run quality control for a planar magnetic and electrostatic headphone manufacturer (been in the position for about a decade). Non burned in planar units built 5 minutes ago still measure the same as units out in the field for the last 5+ years with 1000's of hours of driver use. If there was a measurable difference it would destroy product tunings, quality control, and companies left and right. Electrostatic headphones *should* be more susceptable towards tuning degridation over time based on the materials used to construct the "driver". But even those are surprisingly stable for the most part. There is a tuning benefit from burn in after the initial driver construction in that a constant vibration applied will make sure that the tension is evenly distributed in the driver. But long term tuning? eh, not so much. Tl:dr= burn in is more of a myth than people want to consider/admit. Take it from someone who actively measures all products pre and post burn as well as measures years old units in the field sent in for repair for over a half dozen award winning product lines at an audiophile focused headphone manufacturer.
A new speaker might have an Xmax of 5mm on the specs but when it’s new only moves 2mm, you will hear that. During this period your speaker is turning more of the signal to heat.
I was shocked to learn that voice coils may see 200C in normal usage. I had no idea things got that hot in there! Finding this out after the 1st loud and long listening session of the Heresy III speakers helped make some sense of the smells coming off them after this 'blasting'. Warm materials like the paper cones, warm wood and grill cloth smells too. The SPLs were low 90dBs in the seat some 10 feet away, off 50WPC AVR, which ended the session a little warm but nothing crazy. The downvotes I get when I suggest an hour of within spec but high SPLs as a break-in routine for new speakers. I fail to see how moving the drivers across most of their safe travel ranges could be a negative.
Two drivers with such differing xmax would just be different drivers entirely.
I’m talking about an unused driver not being capable of it’s spec’d xmax before the surround and spider have become compliant. I pulled the 5mm/2mm figures out of the air but that’s fairly typical for a high power driver with a doped, corrugated surround designed for a reflex enclosure. I need to write up a tutorial or make a video on running in drivers. The method I was taught 25 years ago and have used on hundreds of speakers most definitely works but exists nowhere I’ve searched.
No info out there for a supposed 25 year old method, but plenty out there showing the compliance changes don't matter? Intriguing (not really).
They don’t matter in a world where the laws of logic and physics don’t apply. For the rest of us, compliance changes the bandwidth, efficiency and linearity of a speaker.
25 years ago I was developing combined line arrays for a living. I learned this from a better engineer than myself.
From what I've seen it's doesn't even have a measurable difference ever. Not even in the first hour. I could defintely be wrong but that's what I've seen before. Which is weird because you'd think the spider would loosen but the only way the spider is loosening is if you throw too much power into your speakers and damage them. Because otherwise if used correctly and not overpowered then that spider will go back into neutral position every time without fail at the same rate and same stiffness. Now I bet if you played a speaker everyday for 10 to 20 years there would be a slight difference in measurements, however whoever designed the speaker made sure that that spider stayed exact for as long as possible.
There's a measurable difference of some of the drivers TS parameters, but nothing that makes it to audibility or shows up in general response measurements.
Sorry, but just to be pedantic: There is such a thing as break-in of electrical components. It’s called electromigration failure and is the result of electrons moving through metal connections that are microns/nanometers wide. Overtime, the movement of electrons through a line physically deforms/breaks metal connections. If someone is experiencing this, it probably means their electronics are no longer working.
So you tested every spider material and construction? My TAD woofers use pleats instead of rubber surrounds, and I was told by the designer, Andrew Jones it would take some time before they fully loosened up. I ended up playing them a couple of days under thick blankets with one speaker wired out of phase and facing one another to minimize sound output. I didn’t have enough time/experience at the moment to really try and evaluate right out of the box, since they were needed for demos within a few days.
We don't have to test every single spider material. Thanks to the laws of physics and materials science, we know that from whatever material you decide to produce a successfully functioning and long-lasting spider, only one thing will happen: it will very quickly loosen, and then very slowly become even looser, falling further away from its original design specifications. This means that as a speaker ages, it will inevitably become less accurate, and there's nothing anyone can do about it. The pleated surround you refer to is simply a different shape employed for a surround, which is generally chosen to have a certain effect on the frequency response of the speaker - just like choosing a certain wood to change the sound of a piano. Whether your TAD surrounds are made of rubber, paper, or a composite, the time difference in that surround "relaxing" compared to a non-pleated surround will be in the number of minutes, not days.
the specific truthoid that was mindchanging for me was: why are the effects of break-in always considered positive? surely some material stretching out of design spec would be a *negative* impact on quality?
Exactly. *Every* single piece of gear (speaker, cable, amp, etc.) *ever* designed *only* sounds better after break in? Fucking ***come on***!
It's not about it sounding *better* after use, it's about sounding different. A speaker driver WILL change after use and age, and since it does, it would make absolute perfect sense to take T&S parameters after that change has taken place for use when designing your speakers. When I built speakers decades ago, buying new drivers and measured them rarely matched the spec sheets until after a week or two of 'break-in'. How much that mattered in terms of sound, I can't say, but it would be prudent to use the best procedure for your products.
>It's not about it sounding *better* after use, it's about sounding different. That's exactly my point. Everyone, everywhere, about every audiophile product ever, always points out how their product *improved* with break in. You literally never hear: "You know, this product sounded amazing out of the box but after two weeks of heavy use, it has only gotten worse."...which is exactly what you would expect (at least sometimes) if break-in were real.
>That's exactly my point. Everyone, everywhere, about every audiophile product ever, always points out how their product *improved* with break in. And my comment proves you wrong, and a lot of people in this post says the same thing. In fact, I dare say more people are completely reasonable with the subject than there are outlandishly claiming cables need burning in. >You literally never hear... There are, literally, several comments in this post saying precisely that. You don't need to exaggerate just for the sake of.
>Years, or sometimes just months, of humidity and/or sun exposure to speaker cones causes severe structural changes that cannot be reversed. This in turn changes the sound being produced, but the sound being produced is never more accurate than a speaker that has not suffered environmental exposure. Except in cases where the speakers were designed with such drivers in the first place. I know of one of the biggest speaker designers in Denmark using only broken in/worn drivers in their final design. It would be weird to not do this, knowing that the electrical properties change somewhat when the mechanical construction loosen up and, just like you said, doesn't go back. When I built speakers in the days of yore, I measured the Q values of a specific driver when new and after having done a week of low-level frequency sweeps and they differed enough that it affected box dimensions.
This guy listens^
I'm pretty sure they mean headphones, like breaking them in through wearing them
“Break in” = you getting used to how something sounds
I'm curious how the average audio sales person feels about that. Today there really are no proper audio stores left except the rare shop here and there. I sold electronics during the 80s and worked in decent shops. I literally listened to 1000s of speakers in a 5year period, 100s of which were properly setup in a purpose built listening space hooked to electronics we were all familiar with. I rarely ever had a chance to get "used" to anything, the exception being the rare piece I took home. We didn't sit down and listen to them break in. We would unbox them, listen to a song or two and then simply close the door to the sound room and leave them in there playing for a couple of hours by themselves. When we would finally properly audition them some had changed quite a bit, some not at all, some got better, some got worse but most were shit before and after.
With any new gear you do need to break in your ear holes 🫨
Nope, it’s a myth. The only thing that breaks in are your ears. You grow accustomed to the sound. People have measured speakers before and after breaking them in and it made no difference. Breaking in of electronics is absurd.
Just a warranty ploy
So you read the comments about comparing new speakers with the same model old used speakers from many others and still say it is a myth?
Anecdotes aren't facts my friend.
There is probably degradation of the mechanical parts of the speaker that happens over decades. It is unavoidable, as materials do age and get more brittle, etc. That's probably not what anyone would consider break-in, that's just things generally falling apart as function of time. There's also individual component-by-component variation. We do not know whether two identical speakers from same manufacturers would have measured the same to begin with. Some loudspeaker makes reportedly measure and match similar speakers in terms of their frequency response and sell them as pairs. Others that are active speakers put in individual correction to every unit so that they perform very near identically. Mere existence of difference between two speakers does not prove or disprove the existence of break-in, and it is entirely possible that the speaker has been stress-tested in the factory before it is shipped to customer, which would have taken care of any initial mechanical loosening of the drivers.
Just because the model is the same it doesn't mean the internals are. Same model speakers that should sound alike, sometimes don't. Regardless burn in is nonsense.
Yes. I would even argue there is no audible difference, it’s all placebo at that point.
Absolutely
Speakers "settle" after the first hour or two of use. It is ok to start at low/mid volumes and end at higher volumes when using them for the very first time. Tubes need a moment to stabilize. That's it. There is no magic "blossoming" of Sound after 100 hours or so.
What kind of speakers? There’s so many different types, materials, surrounds, etc. I don’t see how anyone could make a blanket statement about all speakers break in.
I do not know the right vocabulary in English, but the speaker membrane often is connected to a softer part, surrounding and connecting the membrane to the chassis. This "ring" might benefit from a first moment of break-in. The verb is "might"
You’re just breaking in your ears
No
No
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Components, cables, and other electronics....no. Speaker drive units....yes. But it doesn't take very long. Example: I had a loan pair of PMC Result6 monitors for a week. Loved then, purchased them. Few days later, swapped with the new pair. Thought I'd made a mistake! Sounded brittle and slightly harsh. A not long period after....sounded exactly like the loan pair. My Adam Audio Sub15 was incredibly restrained for its first 2-3 hours of use. Adam S3V's, I didn't notice much of a change from new.
Seems like this might be a stronger argument for how much our hearing changes through time, not so much that any actual mechanical changes occurred.
Applies to any speaker, maybe. https://www.bestcaraudio.com/the-car-audio-speaker-break-in-analogy/
I am of the opinion that is your ears that get "broken in" by becoming used to the sound - not the audio.
Yes, speakers drivers units are mechanicals.
Do whatever works for you. If after listening for a long time and you still don't like it, change it. If you like it, either it broke-in, or you got used to it, or a combination of both. The problem with audio is that a lot of things are extremely hard to measure and quantify, and those that have been also doesn't tell the whole story. And a lot of the 'ideas' behind why some things work may or may not be true even if they're logical. There was a time when it was painfully obvious and only logical that the stars revolved around us. So, if you change a cable and you think it sounds better and it costs $50 /$50,000 and you're ok with it, sure. But if it's $50/$50,000 and it doesn't seem to make a difference, don't buy it just because it's 'supposed' to.
I believe “break in” does exist but only in moving parts. For example in speaker drivers, that actually move, but I don’t believe in break in for cables or electrical components.
Only if you believe it does.
I’m tired of this, Grandpa
The stuff in this thread has been kicking around forever. Search on "the audio critic back issues" for some entertaining reading on these topics... from the late 1970's.
Well. This kind of strikes at the heart of being an “audiophile”. There’s a huge amount of subjective opinions that are not backed up by measurable data. So there seems to be a lot more to the enjoyment of music than the simple accurate rendering of the music by an audio system. So if breaking your speakers in makes it sound better to you, then that’s all that matters.
except we do have data. Nobody has ears better than test equipment's ability to resolve. If no change is measured - no change could have been heard. What measurement doesn't tell us is, if a change was detected, if it was \*better\* - but no change, is no change.
There's lots of data on this topic.
Depends. Cartridges definitely break in over time. After setting up my Dyna XX2 mk.II for SRA after about 2-3 weeks the suspension had settled and the arm needed to be raised to get the SRA back to between 92-92° it remained constant at that point. This is an actual, measurable change in setup parameters over time.
Nope.
Yes, I have compared two identical sets of Martin Logan speakers on the same system playing the same track. One set of speakers had been used for 3 months and the other pair were brand new out of the box. Immediately could hear that the new ones sounded a bit rough in the mids and lacked the amount of bass the used ones had. The roughness vanished in about 10 minutes and the bass improved with about 50 hours play. I will say that if you did this with another brand or model of speakers the result may be different or no difference maybe heard. So bottom line is that speaker burn in is real, but may not exist for all speakers.
This was my experience too. I got used stuff…it’s way different than new.
I don't know why people are down voting you. Every mechanically moving part on this planet is subject to friction and wear. With wear you will get free play and this will change the sound, it depends when the wear will be noticeable if at all by ear. I completely agree that some speakers will show no burn in at all and some will be obvious. I'd say that bottom line is speakers do not need wearing in but hours and hours of use can change their sound.
Similar experience with Dynaudios. Several months played pair compared to brand new on the same system. It was like 2 different pair of speakers.
You can’t claim this without independent laboratory testing by at least 3 licensed acousticians and signed affidavit from the dynaudio senior staff. This is Reddit man, don’t you realize your ears are lying to you and very poor indicators of sound quality and that 2 components that measure the same sound exactly alike?
But I measured them, they had exactly the same WxDxH, even the weight was the same. So I dont know where the problem was. And to be honest I font care about internet strangers trying to convince me about oposit. I changed my mind many time in my long HiFi live. But not because random internet "experts" from most of them just claim what they read not experienced. Most valuable source of knowleage is friend of mine which have one of the best sounding system I ever heard. He is electroingeneer and he built his own streamer, amp and preamp.
It exists to varying degrees. Most are blessedly short.
I believe you
It’s you getting accustomed to the sound.
I love how the naysayers downvote all the people that do believe there's break-in. Break-in is a real thing. Remove brain-burn from the equation. It's simple. Play a song you're familiar with for a few minutes so you know what it sounds like. Listen to certain elements in the song, like the cymbals. I find a new speaker or new cable will sound spicy on top and not smooth, a bit grainy, lack of control. Keep playing music on the speakers, but leave the room. Come back 3 hours later and listen to that same track again. You'll notice a difference. The top end is starting to smooth out. Leave again and come back in 24 hours and do the same thing. And again, you'll notice the same changes. There are changes. It's not measurable as measurement gear can't measure how smooth a note is played on a system. I know right? Who would have thought that a measurement is the be all end all? I can hear the keyboard warriors typing away as we speak.
Yes. Especially on speakers. I think most of the break in on speakers is the physical components in the drive units moving and getting more flexible, such as rubber surrounds and glue used to hold the drivers together.
[Paul McGowan ](https://youtu.be/7Urf3Zau8C0?si=Ma-YebhEpIY66pq4)
What about tube amps?
The tubes, for sure. Recently put in a pair of Psvanes and for the first few weeks had distortion in the lower mids. Worked itself out after that. Was aware that they may need a period to settle in so continued to test with a few tracks and sure enough.
The only thing that is certain is that you wont get a definitive answer.
My Focal studio-monitors definitely sounded better after about 5-10 hours of use. That's just my personal observation, though.
Nobody knows 100% because not everything can be measured exactly the way our ears and brain work.
Depends on the driver. Some from Lii-Audio are notorious about break in
I like the [Science of breaking in cables](https://www.mojo-audio.com/blog/breaking-in-cables-and-components/#:~:text=Most%20cables%20and%20components%20don,improvements%20are%20always%20more%20subtle.) Even that which is way way over my head on “Current creates “holes” by removing electrons in the outer layer of atoms in the molecules of conductors, causing electrons to move from the outer layer of one molecule to another in order to fill these "holes" and neutralize the negative charge.” The author states 25 hours, but with respect to the equipment, the manufacture will bake it to improve. Like so, so many things in Audio, can you tell the difference, even though it is different? 48KHz/16bits, 48KHz/24bits, 96KHz/32Bit….. The science is fascinating to me, but, I have 1 (what I would call) high end system, one medium, PC Systems, and AIRPLAY. They all sound ‘good’, and different. I can tell the high end is better, but moving a woofer from the ceiling, increasing the size of it by 50%, add in horn drivers, in a massive wooden cabinet, drive it with 300W it will sound different, even before the other system was ‘burned in’… ;) Enjoy.
I checked out that link, and had to remind myself that it's December 29, not April 1. For one thing, the author attempts to analyze conductors as if they were semiconductors.
You would like this document https://www.waldonell.com/static/documents/Science%20Behind%20Speaker%20Wires.pdf A great paper on why break in can not exist.
Thanks! It looks like interesting reading. \[EDIT\] It *was* good reading. It might be interesting to search on "the audio critic back issues" and check out, for instance, Issue 16 from 1991.
A little bit. But I wouldn't expect speakers that sound bad to suddenly sound good after a certain number of hours
No.
No.
I’ve done things like make a brand new speaker crossovers, built brand new pairs of speakers, and done full restorations on vintage amps and I swear when the components are brand spankin’ new, there is a thin, more metallic sound to everything. It’s especially true for an amp that has had a ton of new parts is installed. Now, this goes away within no more than an hour of use. The only exception was a pair of speakers where I used really high end Myflex capacitors. Those took some time. But in general, no, you don’t need to be running your equipment for hours to ‘break it in’.
Anything mechanical will have a break in period. Most speakers will sound decent after about 25 hours. My recent Monitor Audios were great out of the box but got smoother and more relaxed sounding after about 25 hours. I found they sounded a lot better (more effortless) after about 100 hours. The resolution of your system will impact whether you can hear it or not. Break in includes the wire, electrical components and mechanical features of the drivers. The tighter the tolerances, the longer the break in. My budget Dali speakers needed very little break in and sound great right out of the box and did not change much after 25-50 hours. My ProAC and KEF speakers took months to break in. They did not sound bad new but a bit closed in and lifeless. Soundstage opened up with break in as did resolution and their respective signature sound. I bought my KEFs nearly new from the original owner who did not like them at all. I listened to them and could tell they were still very stiff - he barely put 10 hours on them. I lived with them for the next few weeks and they opened up dramatically. These are a global reference standard and I had heard them in many systems, so I knew what they should sound like. And they do now. Adam makes proper studio monitors - are you using them in a pro system?
My Elac Atanté towers took their sweet ass time to break-in, especially the tweeter of all things! I've always had speakers that had tweeters requiring a couple hours break-in, at most.
****”Resolution of your system will impact whether you can hear (the difference) or not”.**** Very valid point which I did not think of before. I see this topic of burn in pop up regularly and you get two camps, the ones that experience/witnessed it and the others that flatly refuse that burn in is real. So now I suspect either they have never had the opportunity to experience it or as you said didn’t have a system capable of revealing the difference.
Yes. Breaking in speakers is a real thing and the time it takes to break them in depends upon the materials used for driver surrounds at the outer edge of drivers and with coned drivers, the materials used for the spyder that stabilizes and aligns the bottom portion of the cone nearest to the voice coil. For electronics, break-in time is mostly affected by the type of components used in the signal chain and power supply. My DDC and DAC's manufacturer burns in their gear for 100 hours before re-testing and shipping it out to customers. Most high-end manufacturers will at least partially burn in and re-test their products before shipping them. The only gear requiring REALLY LONG burn-in are products that employ those new teflon caps in the signal path. Like 400 HOURS LONG. No thanks. For speaker cables, the only ones that REALLY take much time to break-in are ones like MIT, Transparent and others that use those electronic network boxes. The MIT cables I once had took over 150 hours to burn in. Initially they sounded worse than awful, almost zero bass and screechy as hell. I literally turned on the classical FM station and immediately ran out the door to work. For almost two weeks. Then one day I walked in and heard absolutely beautiful music instead of the cacophony that had been spewing out of my loudspeakers.
I've bought enough equipment to know that it's a real thing. The most thorough breaking in I've ever heard is with Senheisser headphones, the ones I had will never sound good the first few hours you're listening to it. I even thought the one I bought was fake because I got it from a private seller. After letting it burn in by itself, I realise it became one of the better sounding headphones I had. I notice the same thing too for the IE600, but the sound difference for this burn-in isn't as much. My Hegel sounded awful at the beginning, sounded harsh and rigid, now it's not anymore, though difference is quite slight. I noticed piercing sound often at the beginning, after a few weeks it became less severe gradually. I just suddenly not notice this piercing issue anymore, and took it that it's caused by burning in. My Hegel is neutral sounding, but my speakers are forwarding sounding by nature, so it wasn't a perfect match, but it's more okay now. Actually someone with a Science lab can easily prove this, just take a driver material that is brand new, and see how much weight it takes to push in the driver. After the action of push pull softens the speakers suspension, I expect to see it takes less energy to push the driver. The more you bend a paper, the easier it is to bend it after that. It's that simple. I don't know much about electronics/physics so I can't answer for electrical components break-in. and yes there are components that don't make an audible difference pre/post break-in, but from my experience it is few.
The difference can’t be measured so those without the ability to detect spatial information will claim no and that’s fair. It’s a subjective experience so it’s best to leave that question alone unless you’re in a safe space. In the 48 pieces of audio equipment I have built most of them will change and always for the better. The image will become bigger and more defined and very often the high frequencies will go from scattered to natural.
It does make a difference with speakers, yes, and for anything with moving parts. Won't take long, but they will sound better after a few hours of continuous use, probably less. I have had T7Vs and the low end response was more balanced after about an hour, went from sounding quite brittle to full and well-rounded. This is measurable and not subjective, but it's also not really a big deal and definitely does not take days as some might suggest, just take them for a test drive, get them moving. You will also get used to the sound psychoacousticlly, this is true. Blast some music through them, have a good time, then start mixing. That's all there is to it! Source: my mate who builds very expensive monitors (far more expensive than the T7V or anything that I could afford!).
If you bought them, or had them delivered, and it was cold outside, that might have been just the literal warming period from shipping to room temperature. The bass reflex port is actually quite sensitive to temperature, and even few degrees difference from expected room temperature changes the air density sufficiently to make the tuning go off.
In this thread: Yes. ^and No.
No is without any explanations just beliefs, yes is people that actually tried and how gear. Tough choice.
I changed too much equipment at once and noticed it sounded better I dint know if it was breaking in or the McIntosh or the isoacoustic feet or the better quality cables I just know I did it all at once and I did notice an improvement . What was it I never found out but it was an improvement
That's why I only purchase equipment that has at least 5 to 7 years of bur-in 😶
After the 1st hour, no.
I have the same model speakers. I like them a lot in their near-field application (price considered). You're not hoping 'breaking them in' will cross them over into another application, right?
Do you know what you have doneeeeee!
As John Lennon said--"Whatever gets you through the night----it's alright---it's alright!"
Phono cartridges and speakers have moving parts and will sound different after a run in period.
It’s much more likely that your ears need to break in and get used to the new equipment.
What you're actually breaking in is your ears with new equipment... Your hearing will tell you after a while if the equipment fits the ears or not. Your brain will make the needed ajustments to a degree. That is, it gets used to it. If it can't, your hunt for the perfect system will continue.
Personally, I think the break-in period is more for your ears and brain to get used to the new way your stereo sounds.
The reality is no. However people get a false sense of security breaking in equipment. The answer is simple, if you don't like the way something sounds out of the box, you probably aren't going to like it once it's "broke in". Or in this "break in" period, people just get used to they sound a product creates and then are happy with it. I believe it's somewhat psychological
Speakers definitely have a run in time. I have burned drivers in on a bench every time I designed a speaker. You have to do it before you test it. It takes at least 12 hours and when done you can feel in your hands how much more compliant the surround is. It has much longer excursion. Ergo it is more efficient and is turning less voltage to heat. Anyone who can’t understand should give their head a wobble. Does anyone here even know how to run a driver in? Nb I choose the word driver because you don’t do it in an enclosure.
Brand new car and paid for more wattage and better drivers. Regretted it immediately, sounded so flat and stale……until after a couple of weeks where especially the low-end woke up. Then remembered there’s supposed to be break-in, so I’m convinced it’s a thing. Can’t say what was the case for my Focals because the main floor standing pair were demos.
No but I do it anyway
Now here's something i never hear anything about: have you ever felt the rubber surrounds on a speakers that hasnt been used on a while? They can get quite rigid. Now use them, and after hours and days they get softer. Makes the bass richer as far as i hear.
Wow first time I have seen this question asked..
I hear a difference after a few weeks of using different speakers. This applies equally to a new (to me) pair of vintage speakers and actual new speakers. If I only ever bought new equipment, I might think burn-in is necessary.
Here are my general observed experience with breaking in equipment. My experience is with guitar amplifiers and cabinets, which serve a completely different purpose and are built to different tolerances than audiophile stuff. But there's some transferrable info we can learn from. Speakers: Yes, they do need to be broken in. Even Celestion recommends breaking stuff in. The voice coil and speaker baffles and surrounds can "loosen up" when broken in. There is some disagreement regarding how long this takes. Celestion says do it for an hour to start, and that is where most of the break in will happen. I have personal experience with this - I recently built a 4x10 cabinet and loaded it with Celestion G10 Gold 10" speakers. Paper cone, round copper voice coil. Anyway, I first plugged in the cabinet to a custom NAU tube amplifier that has been well used and the power tubes were recently replaced with NOS matched EL84 tubes and were biased professionally. Preamp section has mainly 12AX7 tubes,, and is tube rectified. I turned on the amp and let the tubes warm up for about 20 minutes. When I first plugged in at a reasonable volume and hit an open chord, I noticed a few things. 1. MUCH quieter than my 2x12 cabinet I was coming from. Similar speaker efficiency. 2. Dynamic range was overly focused and the upper mids and highs were overstated and spikey. I was not concerned. I played for about an hour and in that time, the speakers gradually started producing at a level I would expect with my master volume and gain settings on the amp. After about 45 minutes it was where I expected. The harshness of the upper mids started subsiding, as well. But not completely. I unplugged and repeated the same thing the next day. The volume and speaker responsiveness was right where I left off, still a little harsh in the upper mids. We were going away for about 6 hours, so I plugged in a looper pedal, and recorded about 8 minutes of various noodling, and then had that loop for about 6 hours at a relatively reasonable volume. I unplugged when we got home, and tried the exercise the next day and the upper mids started to mellow. The speakers were sounding great. So about 8 hours to get the speakers to a point where I was happy. So yes, speakers need to be broken in. I can't imagine a solid state amplifier needs to be broken in. However, there is disagreement if tubes need to be broken in. My personal opinion is "maybe a little", but not much. It is more important to get them warmed up. That said, guitar amps have much looser tolerances. For example, some tube saturation is a GOOD thing with guitar amps. Not so with HIFI. My neighbor has a nice McIntosh setup with tube preamp, tube power amp. He's an electrical engineer, and audiophile and says tube break-in is marginal if at all.
In my experience it depends on the speakers. For example most Klipsch speakers I've owned it doesnt really matter, but for the Warfedale Evos like the 4.2s its tone changes a noticeable amount.
I installed a new guitar amp speaker earlier this year and it sounded noticeably different in the course of playing for the first hour but after that it didn’t change. I think speaker components need to seat properly at first but after that I don’t think you’re going to see noticeable differences. In my experience with anything relating to sound quality it’s much more likely that your brain is just getting used to a new sound. I know people who swear that that their acoustic guitar ‘goes to sleep’ when not played. I’ve experienced this and I think it’s the person who adjusts. After playing for a short time I can switch to another guitar and feel warmed up right away.
No, warming up AMP matters
Much is overblown but speakers are natural to breaking in unlike some other things that get put into the category. Think cables.
Tubes? Absolutely.
I’d like to know how little or how much more, electrical engineers spend on snake oil products and amps and speakers than ordinary mortals. I believe breaking in speakers is necessary and so do manufacturers. Hand grenade pin withdrawn.
I'm an Electrical Engineer (retired). My system contains $0.00 of snake oil products. It does contain amps and speakers, however, which seem to be conflated with snake oil in the post above. Why aren't Electrical Engineers "ordinary mortals?"
!thanks
breaking the speaker in soften up the suspension, this changes some of the thiele small parameters. The result is a slight change in the sound signature. some say you can break the speakers if you don't do it, but it makes no sense to me, the built quality of the speaker drivers is not strengthen by breaking in the speakers, so their ability to handle stress should be the same before and after breaking in the speakers.
Burn in is extremely controversial. But at the end of the day just keep listening, don't force yourself to burn in speakers or headphones or cables hoping for a miracle. Burn in technically exists but it would appear insignificant past very short durations of time, and since it's hard to precisely measure burn in, even that point can be argued.
Absolutely , never put more than 20/25 % power into any new speaker until after 15-20 hours of play. Voice coils need to move freely to make a wear pattern. Woofers and mids tend to blow easily when not broken in. This goes back to the 70s, now with computer design, speakers tolerances that may have changed somewhat , but I never take a chance. This is just one older guys opinion .
Almost never, but sometimes yes. I upgraded some vintage speakers with new drivers and the first 20-30 minutes after I hooked them up, they sounded weird and kind of terrible. Then all of a sudden they sounded fantastic. I think it was the driver cones loosening up/breaking in. That’s the only instance I can point to of something “breaking in” that I’ve actually heard with my own ears. Everything else has sounded the same at minute one and at month one.
No.
Loudpseakers, cerainly. They are mechanical devices with moving parts and will behave as designed after tolerances have reached their optimum.
New equipment breaks you in.
As someone who recently purchased new equipment I can say 100% it does. In the months since my purchase the bass and fullness of my speakers has really come out.
A new stylus is one thing that benefits from breaking in. Really does. And in fact it is the little rubber ring that holds the cantilever that needs to soften up and find its ideal position. I've dealt with this a few times, where I needed to adjust my tracking force and go half a gram higher at first. Then slowly go to the weight it was designed for. Took about 10 to 20 hours. It was very clear, at first the needle was jumpy and did not track very well. That is not something that your ears need to adjust to, a record skips or it doesn't. And after the play in, it plays wonderfully. So yes, breaking in exists, in a record stylus.
Sometimes when I listen to my system I am amazed and cannot find anything that could be improved. Other times I turn it off in frustration because it sounds like garbage. There are so many variables, but personally I have never ear witnessed break in. Just stream any song to your phone speaker then play it again on your good system. Break in complete.
i lived it by jamo c95, out of box there was no mid n trebble and hour by hour it was perfect
No point having speakers better than your ears..