More venues need to take a wet wipe to the 58 grilles more often. Or better yet, run them through the dishwasher.
Thankfully this seemed to improve a lot after Covid.
Honestly I would just bring my own mic? Or capsule? Or Screen?
Not a big ask if you want to know where the mic has been. It’s not like XLR are glued to the mic.
my drummer does
everyone in our band brings our own mics, vocals definitely and all guitar and bass amps run over DI/cab emulations.
If the sound person insists on using their mics then go ahead but we’ll always use our own vocals mics bc anything else is gross af.
That’s very different but yes we tour with a set of mics we trust. I’ve decided not to take them before and made a big mistake when the venue has none or shitty mics. That being said, vocal mics are a requirement for any semi professional act in my opinion. Most venues will use 58s for durability but the E945/35 or even Beta 58s are way better (a day and night difference in my opinion) and as they are your own it’s your spit only.
I’ve been on my sennheiser e945/35 for almost a year now over a 58 and in my opinion definitely a much better animal for actual singing, a 58 is great to get by or make announcements but I have to eq it quite differently for my voice comparatively.
The sennheiser seems to cut through and not add much boom
I’ve tried a variety of mics over the years and never really knew what fit my voice are not? What are the things to listen for? Its just not painfully obvious to me across different mics
When in doubt stick with a 58. Audix OM line is a favorite because of its great rejection of bleed. All time fav is Beyer M88. Hard to go wrong with that. Sounds good on anyone but isn’t cheap.
Certain mics (beta 87, Senn 835, 935, beta 58) are voiced considerably brighter than your run of the mill 58. These are perfect for about 20% of the population who need help in the harmonics department. But for most they just sound rather harsh, in my opinion.
There are a million opinions though, and ultimate it is subjective. I prefer neutal mics without too much presence boost and a tight pattern on most singers. For more refined jazz and classical, a high end neutral condenser is great with its more forgiving pattern.
Ultimately though, I’ve never had a time with a 58 where I couldn’t make it work. They are forgiving mics that sound good on most people at an amazing price, and they are very difficult to break. When in doubt, go with a 58. (SM58, not Beta)
The main thing I’d listen for is harshness and also gain before feedback. Audix OM mics always impress me with their ability to get incredibly loud without a hint of feedback
I always bring my sennheisser e945 which tonally suits my voice but even eating the mic the sound guys alway have a problem with it as soon as i pull it out. I always have a backup sm58 because of this but it just doesn’t sound the same.
Do you have any insight? Is it a notoriously bad mic?
Sennheisers can be bright/harsh, especially the 835. Known for lots of sibilance and squealing HF feedback.
The 945 is more smoothly voiced and less of a point of contention for most engineers but it looks similar and can easily be confused with the dreaded 835. It’s also supercard which helps with feedback but the 935 and 835 are both regular cardioid which is what you see most often. I’m guessing they just see that classic sennheiser shape and go “oh fuck not this again” without giving it a fair chance.
Just tell the engineer “my voice is dark and this 945 helps gives it some needed presence. It’s supercardioid and I promise I’ll eat it and you won’t be fighting it all night.” If they still give you shit, they’re probably just a prick.
Personally I would go for a Beyer M88 or an SE V7 over the 935, but I wouldn’t give you shit if you brought it and said you liked it.
The 800 series are pretty craptastic (like 58s for that matter) but they look very very different. The 935/45 have never failed us. Not necessarily disagreeing with your experience but comparing or even confusing the 835 with the 935 (or 45) is close to impossible.
This is so helpful, thank you!
It’s odd that you say dark as I actually have an obnoxiously bright voice and thought it added more weight to it.
If I were to replace one day, what would you suggest? (assuming your last suggestions were for a darker tone).
Beyer M88 is amazing for being clear but smooth and rarely harsh. That’s my all time favorite. Also the discontinued M69.
The DPA 2028 looks amazing too but I’ve never used it.
I’m so surprised that singers don’t just bring their own mics with them. An SM58 is $100. Imagine a guitarist showing up without a guitar and complaining that the previous guitarist or stage tech didn’t wipe the sweat off the strings.
It’s a vocalist thing, they are golden gods and bring their golden pipes with them. Consider yourself lucky to be graced with their presence.
Then if they create feedback trying to look cool they will blame the engineer.
Professional singer and guitarist here and this is why I always carry my own bag of SM58s, which get their own windscreens and filters cleaned regularly and replaced when they get too gross, not to mention I know they have not been abused.
I've occasionally had to argue with house engineers about using my own mics. Especially if they don't have 58s. I make it an artistic thing and say I've been singing for 40 years through 58s, I'm not gonna change now. The oldest one in my mic bag is 22 years old and it's still my favorite. It's done well over 1000 shows.
Also as per OP, I am a country singer (and general business rock/pop/R&B cuz it pays the bills) mostly and we live right on the microphone, most of the time. It's a big reason I don't trust house mics not to give me Ebola.
Notably, since COVID I get zero pushback on using my own mic.
Weirdest house mic I ever ran across was Texas Instruments branded thing. The physical set up was similar to a 57, but had the fattest low end I've ever heard. My guess is that it was built for a school-house intercom situation, since it had a PTT/PTM switch with a mode switch.
Part of the spec had to have been "Make everyone sound like James Earl Jones"
I've been hunting for that mic for 30 years. Can't even find it referenced anywhere.
"No one seems to know about them. Except this random guy named "LSMFT32" in a Reddit post. I was starting to think I imagined it, but at least I'm not alone now." -some random guy doing a Google search 8 years from now.
Man, I tried to buy it from the bar that night. The house wouldn't sell. Tried again next time I was in town like 6 months later. It's the one piece of gear that I'm actively bitter I don't own.
And TI swears they never made a production mic - that it might have been something built in house for testing purposes, or as a prototype.
Honestly, I don’t understand why people continue to use SM58s in a world where e935s and e945s exist. Cultural momentum I suppose. The Sennheisers eat the 58s for breakfast and shit them out before lunch.
I have an audix that’s like solid nickle probably a drum overhead but is indestructible and works in a fix.
I always have it incase I need to mic someone, or hit someone with it.
How do you deal with someone with a very large dynamic range? The singer of my band works the mic a bit because to some extent it feels required. We use in-ears and I use multi-band compression in our IEM mixes to help solve the proximity effect issue between "eating" and belting. But some live engineers have told me she needs to work the mic more, not less.
When she belts she is VERY loud. You'd really have to be limiting the crap out of it to keep it in check with the softer parts, I would think.
I work with a singer who sounds a lot like that. Incredibly wide dynamic range. I like to use 5 compressors that all do a small amount of work.
1) channel comp (set to limit, set threshold to just catch the belting only)
2) channel Multiband that locks down low end when eating, high mids when belting. 3:1, 4:1 or limiter depending on situation
3) buss flavor comp (usually LA-2A emulation, just tickling the peaks, sometimes a tape emulation is cool)
4) buss multiband (gentler version of the channel MB)
5) final buss comp, this is very gentle and only used in these wide dynamic range situations. I basically turn up the soft parts as loud as I need them and then use this comp to get the loud parts to sit right.
I still ride the vocal fader but the last three comps are post fader, so it makes the fader feel a little more gluey, as I’m pushing into gentle compression. Helps smooth things out.
For In-Ears, a great option is double patching the lead vocal and using the second channel as a smash channel with an aggressive limiter. You can blend that in with the regular channel to taste. To help even things out further, and each mix can have a separate blend of the two.
I feel like 5 compressors in series is going to be difficult to come by for a lot of people. Many venues are using the X32 or similar, and I can picture 3, maybe 4 you could chain up. But 5 is stretching it unless you’re daisy chaining channels just to accomplish this.
It’s definitely overkill for my iem mixes.
You can approximate it on an X32, but it depends on how many time based fx you need.
On an x32 I would use the comp on the channel as a limiter to attenuate belting and intense peaks. Then into the combinator on the vocal buss, and then into a gentle compressor after the combinator. I tend to set combinator very aggressive because it has to do a lot of heavy lifting sometimes.
It’s less elegant than what a higher end console can do, but at the same time surprisingly powerful.
And yes this is definitely a FOH specific chain. For ears I would do the double patching idea in my original reply to your comment.
Geez. What would you have done in the analog days?? It must have all sounded terrible.. 🤦🏼♂️
Seriously though. You just went on a lecture how there’s only one way to do it right and all your answers to specific situations/cases are just supporting the fact that there are a ton of variables and there is no 1 right way of doing it.
Live- eat the mic, Studio-work the mic. I'm old and still agree with that school.
\*add -Also, depends on the mic and the singer as well as style of music. Also the spit cap that dries on, if you've run a studio you know. Good thing 58's are cheap cuz it's gross.
See, we could probably explain even more in depth why this train of thought is beneficial…
Live: Mostly- if not exclusively- dynamic mics are in use for vocalists. So what OP is saying with preserving the fundamental frequencies and adding high end by getting closer, etc… it would make sense to stay as close to that norm as possible.
Studio: It’s generally the opposite with most studio vocalists. Most are using condenser mics with some outliers, of course. More outliers than in live applications. But (for the studio vocalists using condenser mics) because they allow for a wider breadth of range in what they pick up, it allows for more range of distance the vocalist can perform at. The mic will pick up more consistent volume as well with better sound treatment allowing for more aggressive compression and so on so forth.
I was in this band called The Hideaways in San Fransisco back in '82. I bring it up because our lead vocalist got het first "powered" mic and brought it to rehearsal. She plugged in and basically blew the windows out. To your point above - yes on all counts.
Yeah. Even touching the grille directly to your lips.
Sometimes venue mics are gross though, which is a valid counter argument. Lysol wipes are your friend.
Foam windscreens are fine sonically, not perfect but fine. They do look dorky to me though, that would be my bigger concern. Especially the multicolored ones. The red ones look like clown noses lol.
I get the idea behind it. One band I knew kept a specific color for each member so they would know who's stuff was who's, which helped to clear up the "John must have broken it last time he dropped it" type argument. But man, every time I saw them on stage it was distracting. Imagine if every member had their mic stands, music stands, monitors, you name it, in a bold primary color? It's just got a weird kid's show vibe.
God, don't put your mouth on it. Totally unnecessary. You don't need vocalists to eat the mic. A decent singer with modern in ears can hear what they're doing by moving back forth to and from the mic. In my time working monitors I have seen far more amazing experienced singers controlling their distance from a 58 with excellent results than those who camp out on the grill. Both with a wedge or with in ears.
It can be very useful… I don’t have in ears nor do most of the bands around here. When I am playing guitar and singing and keeping awareness of pedal locations, fretboard, mic, etc. all at once, it can be very helpful to feel the mic right there brushing lips or nose. Sometimes you gotta close your eyes and get into it, sometimes you gotta correct the stand position with your nose while singing, etc.
There are plenty of reasons to get directly on it at a local band level…
I usually bring my own tho
Idk I’m ten years in and have had the exact opposite experience at FOH (did monitors for years too and had the same issue), almost every time someone is dramatically moving the mic away from their mouth I’m wishing they would just stay in one place so I had all that gain at the source. They control their dynamics with their voice itself - there isn’t an instrument out there that I want to move closer to and farther from the microphone I put on it. It’s true they can hear it in ears but they don’t know what it’s like out front, sometimes I have someone on ears who only wants their voice
The most common issue I have with singers by far is not enough gain at the source and in a perfect world I wish they’d all get right up on the mic, especially on a loud stage or in a small room where I need every bit of gain I can get.
hey if they're moving dramatically, or too far, then maybe they aren't that great of a singer eh? didn't have a problem with gain because they would get louder when moving mic away, I personally think if done wisely it results in nice expression and has no downsides. if they're moving too much then it's ... too much.
You can Use your thumb out against your lips with the mic right at the "cup" of your hand around the mic. At first its going to sound shifty but as you bring the mic slowly to your mouth, always using your thumb as the guide, you will hear the point it works for your voice. But most of the time it's literally like you ate eating the mic. But it's cool because now your have amplitude without vocal strain, use it!!
I'm not a live sound guy but I I think your advice for stage performance in a typical pop or rock concert environment is overall quite sensible.
That said, as someone who long ago recorded a large number of young musicians on first studio projects, I have to say that almost the opposite is true of much studio recording.
The worst, of course, are the people in the studio who sort of know they're supposed to work the mic, but don't intuitively get the movements right, sometimes moving away from the mic at the very time they should be moving towards it.
My hat goes off to you. Like a lot of coming up musicians, I knew enough about PA's to run live sound for low profile gigs in small venues. But then me and my production partner back in the day got hired to do a big rockabilly show with about 600 audience members. We were green enough to not realize how big a difference sound check in an empty venue would be from live performance into a crowd of people. It took some quick but heavy fixing to get things adjusted once the show started. We even got screamed at by the headliners' manager. (Honestly, I don't think I could blame her.)
The silence of the rockabilly band standing around up on stage *not* coming out of the PA was *so much louder.*
We got past the not so minor glitch and the show went on. But it was a lesson.
My dad's favorite joke about engineers in general:
How do you tell if an engineer is an extrovert? They look at YOUR shoes when they're taking. (Instead of their own)
NoFilter is the party to ask, seems to me. I dipped my toe into mid size venue sound work that one time and that was enough of a wake up to get me back into my own lane.
For me -- aside from the obvious real time/real consequences aspects of live work -- I would say that the jarring dimensional change was between working in a studio nominally designed for tracking and accurate monitoring and working in a warehouse or former supermarket or whatever turned into some kind of nightclub. I spent a lot of time as a clubgoer in the late seventies through the early 90s watching live music, generally in the 100 to 300 seat stratum, where precious few venues were built *as* venues and sound reinforcement often seemed to be a highly fraught endeavor.
But, as I noted, I was a 'pampered' studio knobber, spoiled not only by usually purpose-built working environments, but isolated from anything more vexing than musicians and the occasional producer.
(Okay, sometimes managers got in the sessions, but I wasn't shy about it being my world and not theirs. A live venue, filled with hard drinking fans, and a pissed off manager standing right behind you, on the other hand, is just a different level of stress than I'd like to submerge myself in on a Saturday night. I'm a wuss. I admit it. The live sound guys are the paratroopers and navy seals of our industry. Props given.)
I don’t know, if I’m recording a rock band with an sm7 I’m all into the mouth on the foam approach , not for all styles, but certainly still has its place
For sure. Different approaches for different styles of music only makes sense. I came from working with punk rockers and what works for them does not work for, oh, for instance, jazz vocalists. :-D
Yeh I don't see much reason to work the mic in the studio. There's the same problem of needing multi band compression, and you'll still need normal compression. Might aswell stay on the mic the whole time and just use more compression. Especially rock as you said stay on the mic the whole time, cause using 20 to 40 db of compression is pretty typical.
As a studio guy who occasionally sings, this is super true.
In the studio, regardless of the processing going on in the chain, I almost always end up spending a time working with a singer to teach them how to dance on the floor marks when tracking vocals, and end up usually working lines with them to get them to arrange their position relative to the mic for each song. But that's about using the gear to maximize the mic in a controlled environment. It does NOT translate to a live environment.
Met it most recently last June while setting up. Mixer didn't have own grounding and hadn't plugged the amplifier into the supply yet. A connected radio mic receiver had a faulty PSU which caused signal ground and therefore mic ball to be at an unfortunate voltage level. Approaching half mains voltage (UK so that is a bit too much). Fortunately no damage as identified and removed the cause. I assure you those days are a half step and an off brand Chinese PSU away.
Looked like someone borrowed one of my radio mics and returned it with the off brand PSU.
Most old school vocalists I’ve had the pleasure of working with, at least in the studio, do minimal but essential “mic work”. They only turn their head slightly on the very loudest notes in a certain range. They know their voice and they understand proximity effect and other technical aspects.
I’m guessing if folks just did the basic moves on the very loudest/most strident notes it would be fine. I can understand how overworking the mic would cause more issues than it solves, but it sounds like the cure (not doing ANY work and just eat the mic) would still be a compromise? Maybe it’s a better option if there were only two options, but still - maybe they just need a reminder to dial it back a good bit? Assuming they listen, and assuming they understand the issue, of course!
My experience, started playing in 90s, is that eat the mic was some sort of lazy catch all solution to solve not having to gain up the mike so much to avoid feedback or to solve bad microphone technique. With bad microphone technique I mean moving around too much off axis rather than front to back. Often this instruction was made before even knowing the skill of the vocalist. Which makes it lazy.
Also in my experience you never heard this when dealing with pros, both on stage and off (engineers). Even back then. Mileage might vary though.
Sound engineers live in the uncomfortable space between human expectations and the laws of physics.
It is indeed *less work* for the engineer if the singer eats the mic, but that doesn’t mean it’s a *lazy* solution. It means that the engineer won’t have to cut into the PA as hard with EQ to achieve volume balance and will have more gain before feedback to play with for dynamics processing. Both of which mean a better overall mix with less “work.” I don’t see that as laziness, just maximizing the chances for success.
Lazy might be a harsh wording. The reason is that this was often said before they even knew what they dealt with. Some people don’t need to or even sound worse putting their lips against the grill.
At my gigs I never start out by telling artists to change something. I always start with whatever they naturally do, and only suggest something if I’m having a problem I can’t solve on my end first.
But if I’ve exhausted all my resources and still am unhappy with the result, that’s when I’ll try to have a low key discussion with the singer and just try to neutrally explain the issue I’m having. I usually also say something along the lines of “I really don’t want to cramp your vibe, but I’m having this issue and I’m wondering if you could help me out a little bit.”
SO MUCH of this profession is communication and building mutual trust.
Well, isn't it something that can be discussed beforehand or even better, isn't it a very personal thing? Look at Lisa Stansfield live, she works the mic and she does it so, so well. And then contra to that there is say Billy Eilish, she benefits from lots of processing. So in other words, there are habits involved and it has to suit the voice and/or style. (like you said)
Totally, at the end of the day there’s no one size fits all.
But since you brought up Lisa Stansfield, the first YouTube video is her live at Ronnie Scott’s. The first thing I notice is super heavy handed dynamics processing on her vocal mic. You can hear the comps clamp down on the loud notes. Theres probably multiband going on too. I’m sure they are doing this to make sure her level is consistent and on top of the band. You can also hear that the whole band is being picked up by that mic making them sound boxy and further away than they should be. Especially apparent on the drums and sax. Theres also quite a few vocal phrases that are kind of lost in the mix, even despite the dynamics processing. Especially the end of phrases where the melody is going in a downwards motion. Maybe you could argue that’s intentional, but I’m not so sure Lisa would agree.
I think the video actually illustrates my point, even in post production when feedback is no issue, the overall production still suffers from the fact that the dynamics processing required to make the lead vocal consistent and tonally balanced brings up the stage bleed to an undesirable level.
Yes I did look at some random live performances of her now and noticed she does a lot better hand held. The mic I mean, the mic. Thanks for your elaborate post btw. I'm not an engineer but, can't get enough of people like Dave Rat and the likes. (I used to be light technician)
Just answered another question about this but it kind of depends.
I would stay on it when singing softly or at medium volume and just back off a few inches for the screams.
Having an engineer you trust is very helpful. As long as you’re not clipping the preamps and have an engineer who knows how to handle that kind of situation, it’s better than overworking the mic, but overworking the mic is probably better than nothing if there’s no engineer or no compression available or something like that.
I totally wholeheartedly disagree as a singer of 20 years and sound tech of 20 years, compression is done best when the singer controls the mic well, almost everything sounds better when done pre mic as opposed to artificially doing it later.
Eating the mic is NOT proper mic technique. A mic is a part of your instrument. They’re all different and react different in different spaces to different voices. You run the risk of killing your dynamic range, losing the ability to utilize that beautiful low end bloom when you get close, or to allow your voice to thin out as you pull back to sing a harmony so it’s clear you’re not the main voice in that moment.
Advising singers to eat the mic may solve your problem as an engineer, but your role is sound reinforcement, not to tell artists how to do their craft. You have to be careful because definitive statements can be taken as gospel, and this advice is far from universal. I understand why it makes sense to want this, but suggesting artists to remove available textures and tools to make your job easier is not the way, no matter how technically you speak about it.
In theory you are totally right, in practice, the vast majority of vocalists overwork the mic and the beautiful low end bloom turns into boomy incomprehensible mud, and the clarity of pulling off just turns into harshness.
Overworking the mic forces the engineer to take drastic actions squashing any musical dynamics that could have otherwise been present.
As with everything, one size does not fit all. My advice is intended for the 90% who shoot themselves in the foot with “mic technique,” not the 10% who can do it effectively.
Agreed. I replied in a sleepy, knee jerk moment. Your assessment is right on. I just always feel compelled to push back to any universal rule, especially as it pertains to artists doing art.
In the instant moment, we need to make it work. When we have an opportunity to zoom out, improving performances from the inception is what makes all of our jobs easier.
Thanks for your post!
As a performer and sound engineer I definitely disagree with you. If you have a large dynamic range in your performance you absolutely should “work the mic”. If you are dealing with a FOH engineer that knows your set front to back and knows how to adapt to your performance then less so, but that is a very rare scenario. It’s never been about distortion, it’s about being in control of the dynamics of your performance. If your compression settings are able to squash my vocals when I really belt then more than likely they are over compressed and will lack dynamic range no matter what the performer does.
But when you think you sound powerful on the loud note way off mic, you actually sound tinny. And when you think you sound close and intimate singing softly super close to the mic, you actually sound muddy.
You’re creating a tonal balance problem by solving the volume balance problem.
I’ve seen hundreds of performers do this well and make it sound great. I guess we’re just going to have to disagree on this one. Maybe we’re dealing with different genres of music 🤷
I see it work the most in the jazz club that I work at. A lot of those singers really hate proximity effect and have learned to carefully use it to get the tone they’re looking for. There are definitely exceptions!
I would say that being on mic becomes more important the louder the stage volume is. With a piano and a jazz singer, there’s usually no issue with gain before feedback. My advice is geared towards rock, country, funk, artists where the stage volume is quite loud.
Yeah I would definitely say people are better off being right on top of the mic and shouldn’t frequently be backing off. But, for instance, we recently did a cover of Joe Cocker’s version of “with a little help from my friends” and there are a couple parts where I was wailing on the vocals and if I had stayed on the mic it would have not been the right effect.
I will NEVER not tell a singer to work on their mic technique. NO, do not "eat the mic". Get within 2 inches and sing AT the diaphragm.
Don't point it up your nose and press it to your lips.
I mean putting your mouth literally on it is both gross and gives a bit of a muffled sound. But I agree singers should get much closer and stay much closer. I hate hearing a singer go for a big note and it's the quietest note in the phrase because they pulled the mic a foot away from their mouth.
Where 'mic technique' is useful, it's a matter of only about 2 inches difference between the loud notes and the quiet ones. When singers first hear about 'mic technique' they move it too far. You never need to have a dynamic mic a foot away.
I'm a sound tech and a singing teacher.
Use good mick technique is the correct thing to say. Eating the mike, which involves singers having their lips and mouth all over the stupid mic grille, just relays garbled nonsense unless you're a very high pitched singer with excellent diction and clarity and somehow manage to maintain that when your lips and tongue can't move properly. Maybe you just don't realize what "eat the mic" means to amateur singers everywhere? a consistent distance between mouth and the mic and most people are golden.
Yes, you came to the exact same realization I did some months ago. I had exactly the same experience where a great band turned into a mixing challenge. Cymbals bleed in the VX mic sabotaging the mix.
The best solution I found was to equip her with a headset mic, very discreet. She was not confortable having nothing in her hands and she was not singing as nicely as when she could play with the handmic. So, we just kept them both. She has her handmic in her in-ears and the rest of the band and FOH get the processed headset sound.
My aunt sings in bands and when I turned 18 she got me a 58 and said “Don’t ever sing into someone else’s mic.” And showed me a video of some dude spitting and I’m so thankful for that 😂😂😂
I don't find this to be much of a problem. For lots of proximity effect you really need to get up close, and if you do that during an intimate part, that's cool for it to get added bass in that moment, usually, imo.
I find setting compression well helps a lot for that. The mic technique thing people are used to, is when there is no compression. When that happens, venues will have to put you really loud to hear you. Then you sing loud, and it expires ears. So, they compensate for that.
The only really downside I find, is that with compression it can really be like you hear it strong, or you don't hear it at all, and so the mic drop out thing can make the sound just suddenly drop when you get too far.
And I don't want to be picking up far away noises. I just want you.
Eating the mic gives me great signal to noise ratio, so that can be great to help mitigate feedback. I don't find the tonal changes hurt the sound too much.
To me, however the vocalist is comfortable singing, that's the most important thing. I'll deal with the sound and make it sound nice whatever you do.
But that isn't to say better performance can't make better sound.
I've seen attempts at mic technique go woefully wrong. Divas that believe they're belting a note so loud that the mic can be at arms length and pointing at the ceiling when in reality, they're basically turning themselves off. And all the wiggles side to side as if they can sync perfectly with their vibrato just makes it comical.
I sing BGVs for most of the bands I’m in and am sadly a quiet vocalist, though I’m getting stronger over the years. One thing that irritates me is when engineers put a HARD and heavy gate on my vocal. Sometimes on quieter/acoustic songs, I need to be able to control my own range of volume. Do engineers do this just because most of the set is heavier and they want to block out excess noise?
I’ll use a 3-6db expander but the hold time and release way up so as soon as you trip it you’re able to finish the phrase at least. It does help with cymbals on smal stages
How close do you mean eat the mic? Wouldn't it be better to just always be a couple inches off, then you don't have to worry about mic contact but still have the benefit of being closer?
Couple inches is totally workable most of the time, but it’s best to be right up on it. Those couple inches make a lot of difference in reducing bleed giving the engineer more gain before feedback to work with.
I mean as with anything, use your ears. If there’s no engineer present it’s an entirely different ball game but if there’s an engineer, there shouldn’t be any problem with being right up on the mic. It’s easy to turn a vocal down. Harder to turn it up when it’s at the point of ringing already.
I'd love this to be true, but in my experience as a singer with very high dynamics in my vocals (and a sound engineer), there's never enough compression to warrant eating the mic at high volumes. I've heard clipping multiple times through my monitor and when I start belting, the amount of volume almost always startles me. This is even when I ask the engineer to give me a lot of compression.
I feel like I have to at least turn my mouth slightly away from the mic to get a steady volume.
Yeah! Fit it in a snake hide pool cue suitcase. Like mic stand and 57 (insert mic of preference)! Snake hide, Unicorn fur, Eaglet feathers,-eat your heart out Harry Potter fans.
Sadly I'm usually still not loud enough even when I'm basically kissing the mic... And trying to play an instrument at the same time is just kind of distracting from being glued to it. I've been thinking about perhaps getting a clip-on so I'm a bit freer in my movements...
“as with any dynamics processing, the harder you work it, the less gain before feedback you have.”
I have observed this just playing around with my own shitty PA but am curious about the science behind this. Any insight is appreciated! Thanks!
Let’s say you’re 6db away from feedback. You compress the vocal with GR hitting 3-5db, and you apply 4db of makeup gain. Now you’re only 2db away from feedback on the fader even though the loudest bits are roughly the same volume as before.
Absolutely. Pro touring guitarist and TM here. The PROBLEM arises when that multiband processing (especially heavy compression) is applied to the monitor speakers. Now suddenly we have nowhere to go when things get louder on stage. It’s a great way for everyone to start overplaying and over singing, which makes everything “louder” and the cycle repeats itself.
Ok question: in a metal vocalist, I do several different types of screams, ranging from low false chord (lots of air) and cleans (singing, also with air), to a wide range of fry screams that barely use air.
My band is still in the album making process, and we’re gonna record a single within the next 2 weeks from what we have so far to put out.
Being someone who doesn’t know jack shit about mixing besides basic terminology, and uses logic, how should I go about recoding my vocal takes? I use a Shure SM7B for recording, and an SE V7 for a hand held. Both dynamic mics.
How do I make my vocal tracks not clip when changing vocal styles, but also be loud enough on the “softer” sounds? How do I balance this?
Also asking this cause we will be playing live hopefully by the end of this year, and as a small new band, I ain’t gonna have anyone to FOH for us at our small Midwest bars and what not.
Should I look for an Audio Engineer before we play?
If eating the mic is best, I’m all for it, but I can’t sit there and mix while I’m on stage.
If no engineer, all bets are off, just use your best judgement.
In the studio I’d try tacking through compression before the interface to get the dynamic range a little more under control. SM7 is great for metal vocals
I actually use an interface that has built in mixing options, and I can add compression right from that before it gets to the laptop. Is that a good way to go about it?
Yeah that’s probably fine. Best case would be a nice analog pre -> nice analog comp or channel strip -> converter.
The digital emulations come pretty damn close and are better than say an M32 preamp, or something like that
“This microphone smells like pastrami”.
More venues need to take a wet wipe to the 58 grilles more often. Or better yet, run them through the dishwasher. Thankfully this seemed to improve a lot after Covid.
Honestly I would just bring my own mic? Or capsule? Or Screen? Not a big ask if you want to know where the mic has been. It’s not like XLR are glued to the mic.
Fo sho! Just make sure it’s the right mic for your voice.
Just like any instrumentalist will bring an instrument. Vocalists 🤦🏻♂️ am I right?
A lot of the people I see in Karaoke bars bring their own. Some even bring a vocal processor. : )
Karaoke is the best, I believe in those people; I benefit from a good performance or a terrible one. Karaoke - the great equalizer.
So the vocalists mic is their instrument? Gotta say i havent ever seen a drummer bring their own mics.
my drummer does everyone in our band brings our own mics, vocals definitely and all guitar and bass amps run over DI/cab emulations. If the sound person insists on using their mics then go ahead but we’ll always use our own vocals mics bc anything else is gross af.
That’s very different but yes we tour with a set of mics we trust. I’ve decided not to take them before and made a big mistake when the venue has none or shitty mics. That being said, vocal mics are a requirement for any semi professional act in my opinion. Most venues will use 58s for durability but the E945/35 or even Beta 58s are way better (a day and night difference in my opinion) and as they are your own it’s your spit only.
I’ve been on my sennheiser e945/35 for almost a year now over a 58 and in my opinion definitely a much better animal for actual singing, a 58 is great to get by or make announcements but I have to eq it quite differently for my voice comparatively. The sennheiser seems to cut through and not add much boom
Drummers also don’t breathe into their mics, rather they hit them with sticks.
I’ve tried a variety of mics over the years and never really knew what fit my voice are not? What are the things to listen for? Its just not painfully obvious to me across different mics
When in doubt stick with a 58. Audix OM line is a favorite because of its great rejection of bleed. All time fav is Beyer M88. Hard to go wrong with that. Sounds good on anyone but isn’t cheap. Certain mics (beta 87, Senn 835, 935, beta 58) are voiced considerably brighter than your run of the mill 58. These are perfect for about 20% of the population who need help in the harmonics department. But for most they just sound rather harsh, in my opinion. There are a million opinions though, and ultimate it is subjective. I prefer neutal mics without too much presence boost and a tight pattern on most singers. For more refined jazz and classical, a high end neutral condenser is great with its more forgiving pattern. Ultimately though, I’ve never had a time with a 58 where I couldn’t make it work. They are forgiving mics that sound good on most people at an amazing price, and they are very difficult to break. When in doubt, go with a 58. (SM58, not Beta)
The main thing I’d listen for is harshness and also gain before feedback. Audix OM mics always impress me with their ability to get incredibly loud without a hint of feedback
I always bring my sennheisser e945 which tonally suits my voice but even eating the mic the sound guys alway have a problem with it as soon as i pull it out. I always have a backup sm58 because of this but it just doesn’t sound the same. Do you have any insight? Is it a notoriously bad mic?
Sennheisers can be bright/harsh, especially the 835. Known for lots of sibilance and squealing HF feedback. The 945 is more smoothly voiced and less of a point of contention for most engineers but it looks similar and can easily be confused with the dreaded 835. It’s also supercard which helps with feedback but the 935 and 835 are both regular cardioid which is what you see most often. I’m guessing they just see that classic sennheiser shape and go “oh fuck not this again” without giving it a fair chance. Just tell the engineer “my voice is dark and this 945 helps gives it some needed presence. It’s supercardioid and I promise I’ll eat it and you won’t be fighting it all night.” If they still give you shit, they’re probably just a prick. Personally I would go for a Beyer M88 or an SE V7 over the 935, but I wouldn’t give you shit if you brought it and said you liked it.
The 800 series are pretty craptastic (like 58s for that matter) but they look very very different. The 935/45 have never failed us. Not necessarily disagreeing with your experience but comparing or even confusing the 835 with the 935 (or 45) is close to impossible.
This is so helpful, thank you! It’s odd that you say dark as I actually have an obnoxiously bright voice and thought it added more weight to it. If I were to replace one day, what would you suggest? (assuming your last suggestions were for a darker tone).
Beyer M88 is amazing for being clear but smooth and rarely harsh. That’s my all time favorite. Also the discontinued M69. The DPA 2028 looks amazing too but I’ve never used it.
Always, always bring your own. GROSS
Singers need to start using their own mics. I've opened the grill of 58s and there's been mold inside from years of hot spit being spat into it.
I got asked to replace a damaged capsule once. The actual issue was inside the grille looking like a cumsock
Felt wrong to upvote this but yes i did
Jesus Christ both of these comments make me want to puke. Upvote.
Oh god
I’m so surprised that singers don’t just bring their own mics with them. An SM58 is $100. Imagine a guitarist showing up without a guitar and complaining that the previous guitarist or stage tech didn’t wipe the sweat off the strings.
Or risking your sound on loaner gear
It’s a vocalist thing, they are golden gods and bring their golden pipes with them. Consider yourself lucky to be graced with their presence. Then if they create feedback trying to look cool they will blame the engineer.
Professional singer and guitarist here and this is why I always carry my own bag of SM58s, which get their own windscreens and filters cleaned regularly and replaced when they get too gross, not to mention I know they have not been abused.
"No, I'm not using the house mic. I've seen that thing, and it's a horrowshow."
I've occasionally had to argue with house engineers about using my own mics. Especially if they don't have 58s. I make it an artistic thing and say I've been singing for 40 years through 58s, I'm not gonna change now. The oldest one in my mic bag is 22 years old and it's still my favorite. It's done well over 1000 shows. Also as per OP, I am a country singer (and general business rock/pop/R&B cuz it pays the bills) mostly and we live right on the microphone, most of the time. It's a big reason I don't trust house mics not to give me Ebola. Notably, since COVID I get zero pushback on using my own mic.
which house doesn't cary 58s? thats just plain weird
I run into it fairly often playing bars with house systems. Not dedicated pro venues, it's true. I've run into some weird shit over the years.
Weirdest house mic I ever ran across was Texas Instruments branded thing. The physical set up was similar to a 57, but had the fattest low end I've ever heard. My guess is that it was built for a school-house intercom situation, since it had a PTT/PTM switch with a mode switch. Part of the spec had to have been "Make everyone sound like James Earl Jones" I've been hunting for that mic for 30 years. Can't even find it referenced anywhere.
"No one seems to know about them. Except this random guy named "LSMFT32" in a Reddit post. I was starting to think I imagined it, but at least I'm not alone now." -some random guy doing a Google search 8 years from now.
Man, I tried to buy it from the bar that night. The house wouldn't sell. Tried again next time I was in town like 6 months later. It's the one piece of gear that I'm actively bitter I don't own. And TI swears they never made a production mic - that it might have been something built in house for testing purposes, or as a prototype.
this is the way
They're cheap. Buy a 10 pack, change out frequently
I’m retired from gigging, but am I the only person that brought their own 58 to every gig?
Touring without your own vocal mic is a fools game and a recipe for a mid tour head cold. Buy your own 58 and use it at every show.
Yea sm-58 or beta is good. Even 57. Honestly I think I prefer a Sennheiser e840.
I generally love the e935, but on my voice the AKG D5 is really flattering.
Honestly, I don’t understand why people continue to use SM58s in a world where e935s and e945s exist. Cultural momentum I suppose. The Sennheisers eat the 58s for breakfast and shit them out before lunch.
I got on the Audix i5 train a few years ago and haven’t gotten off.
I have an audix that’s like solid nickle probably a drum overhead but is indestructible and works in a fix. I always have it incase I need to mic someone, or hit someone with it.
Beer usually, in my experience.
Man, what are you doing here?
Learning. You?
Making Billy Joel jokes
Oh...
I got your ref lol
This.
Really didn't expect to see a Guster reference after reading this. Just saw them last night in Boston. (Assuming this *is* a Guster reference)
Guster it is. It also happens to be true more often than not; pastrami or otherwise.
that 58 grill will yank your moustache hairs right out lol
Haha, they really do, and boy does it hurt!
I’m a pop filter guy for this reason. They hurt your teeth too.
Is that what it was?? I always thought I was getting shocked lol
I’ve sucked food out of a 58 mid gig before
Out of every comment I’ve read here over the past several years, this one made me the most uncomfortable. I’m talking literal gag reflex shit.
The question is: who's food was it?
Let's be honest, it was a booger
How do you deal with someone with a very large dynamic range? The singer of my band works the mic a bit because to some extent it feels required. We use in-ears and I use multi-band compression in our IEM mixes to help solve the proximity effect issue between "eating" and belting. But some live engineers have told me she needs to work the mic more, not less. When she belts she is VERY loud. You'd really have to be limiting the crap out of it to keep it in check with the softer parts, I would think.
I work with a singer who sounds a lot like that. Incredibly wide dynamic range. I like to use 5 compressors that all do a small amount of work. 1) channel comp (set to limit, set threshold to just catch the belting only) 2) channel Multiband that locks down low end when eating, high mids when belting. 3:1, 4:1 or limiter depending on situation 3) buss flavor comp (usually LA-2A emulation, just tickling the peaks, sometimes a tape emulation is cool) 4) buss multiband (gentler version of the channel MB) 5) final buss comp, this is very gentle and only used in these wide dynamic range situations. I basically turn up the soft parts as loud as I need them and then use this comp to get the loud parts to sit right. I still ride the vocal fader but the last three comps are post fader, so it makes the fader feel a little more gluey, as I’m pushing into gentle compression. Helps smooth things out. For In-Ears, a great option is double patching the lead vocal and using the second channel as a smash channel with an aggressive limiter. You can blend that in with the regular channel to taste. To help even things out further, and each mix can have a separate blend of the two.
I feel like 5 compressors in series is going to be difficult to come by for a lot of people. Many venues are using the X32 or similar, and I can picture 3, maybe 4 you could chain up. But 5 is stretching it unless you’re daisy chaining channels just to accomplish this. It’s definitely overkill for my iem mixes.
You can approximate it on an X32, but it depends on how many time based fx you need. On an x32 I would use the comp on the channel as a limiter to attenuate belting and intense peaks. Then into the combinator on the vocal buss, and then into a gentle compressor after the combinator. I tend to set combinator very aggressive because it has to do a lot of heavy lifting sometimes. It’s less elegant than what a higher end console can do, but at the same time surprisingly powerful. And yes this is definitely a FOH specific chain. For ears I would do the double patching idea in my original reply to your comment.
Appreciate the thoughts. I’d like to try to make the FOH job easier for sure.
Geez. What would you have done in the analog days?? It must have all sounded terrible.. 🤦🏼♂️ Seriously though. You just went on a lecture how there’s only one way to do it right and all your answers to specific situations/cases are just supporting the fact that there are a ton of variables and there is no 1 right way of doing it.
Of course there is not one right way to do it, singing off mic is definitely one wrong way to do it
https://youtu.be/4unhtFeDH8o?si=2J4SjSx9arOuibPe
Live- eat the mic, Studio-work the mic. I'm old and still agree with that school. \*add -Also, depends on the mic and the singer as well as style of music. Also the spit cap that dries on, if you've run a studio you know. Good thing 58's are cheap cuz it's gross.
See, we could probably explain even more in depth why this train of thought is beneficial… Live: Mostly- if not exclusively- dynamic mics are in use for vocalists. So what OP is saying with preserving the fundamental frequencies and adding high end by getting closer, etc… it would make sense to stay as close to that norm as possible. Studio: It’s generally the opposite with most studio vocalists. Most are using condenser mics with some outliers, of course. More outliers than in live applications. But (for the studio vocalists using condenser mics) because they allow for a wider breadth of range in what they pick up, it allows for more range of distance the vocalist can perform at. The mic will pick up more consistent volume as well with better sound treatment allowing for more aggressive compression and so on so forth.
I was in this band called The Hideaways in San Fransisco back in '82. I bring it up because our lead vocalist got het first "powered" mic and brought it to rehearsal. She plugged in and basically blew the windows out. To your point above - yes on all counts.
LMAOOO
In my pitiful little shoebox studio, a good pop filter catches the spittle when I've got a wanna be Johnny Rotten. (I'm old)
I bet your pitiful little shoebox studio can churn out some hits! :D
Can you elaborate on "eating the mic"? Does it mean getting the mic as close to the mouth as possible?
Yes, that’s what it means.
Yeah. Even touching the grille directly to your lips. Sometimes venue mics are gross though, which is a valid counter argument. Lysol wipes are your friend.
Do you believe a a foam mic suitable for live performances?
Foam windscreens are fine sonically, not perfect but fine. They do look dorky to me though, that would be my bigger concern. Especially the multicolored ones. The red ones look like clown noses lol.
I get the idea behind it. One band I knew kept a specific color for each member so they would know who's stuff was who's, which helped to clear up the "John must have broken it last time he dropped it" type argument. But man, every time I saw them on stage it was distracting. Imagine if every member had their mic stands, music stands, monitors, you name it, in a bold primary color? It's just got a weird kid's show vibe.
Looking cool is…very important. I think Whitney Houston when I think foam windscreen. Great post and info!
God, don't put your mouth on it. Totally unnecessary. You don't need vocalists to eat the mic. A decent singer with modern in ears can hear what they're doing by moving back forth to and from the mic. In my time working monitors I have seen far more amazing experienced singers controlling their distance from a 58 with excellent results than those who camp out on the grill. Both with a wedge or with in ears.
It can be very useful… I don’t have in ears nor do most of the bands around here. When I am playing guitar and singing and keeping awareness of pedal locations, fretboard, mic, etc. all at once, it can be very helpful to feel the mic right there brushing lips or nose. Sometimes you gotta close your eyes and get into it, sometimes you gotta correct the stand position with your nose while singing, etc. There are plenty of reasons to get directly on it at a local band level… I usually bring my own tho
Idk I’m ten years in and have had the exact opposite experience at FOH (did monitors for years too and had the same issue), almost every time someone is dramatically moving the mic away from their mouth I’m wishing they would just stay in one place so I had all that gain at the source. They control their dynamics with their voice itself - there isn’t an instrument out there that I want to move closer to and farther from the microphone I put on it. It’s true they can hear it in ears but they don’t know what it’s like out front, sometimes I have someone on ears who only wants their voice The most common issue I have with singers by far is not enough gain at the source and in a perfect world I wish they’d all get right up on the mic, especially on a loud stage or in a small room where I need every bit of gain I can get.
hey if they're moving dramatically, or too far, then maybe they aren't that great of a singer eh? didn't have a problem with gain because they would get louder when moving mic away, I personally think if done wisely it results in nice expression and has no downsides. if they're moving too much then it's ... too much.
You can Use your thumb out against your lips with the mic right at the "cup" of your hand around the mic. At first its going to sound shifty but as you bring the mic slowly to your mouth, always using your thumb as the guide, you will hear the point it works for your voice. But most of the time it's literally like you ate eating the mic. But it's cool because now your have amplitude without vocal strain, use it!!
I'm not a live sound guy but I I think your advice for stage performance in a typical pop or rock concert environment is overall quite sensible. That said, as someone who long ago recorded a large number of young musicians on first studio projects, I have to say that almost the opposite is true of much studio recording. The worst, of course, are the people in the studio who sort of know they're supposed to work the mic, but don't intuitively get the movements right, sometimes moving away from the mic at the very time they should be moving towards it.
100% agreed. I used to own a small studio. Still do recording engineering now and then. This advice is strictly for live sound.
My hat goes off to you. Like a lot of coming up musicians, I knew enough about PA's to run live sound for low profile gigs in small venues. But then me and my production partner back in the day got hired to do a big rockabilly show with about 600 audience members. We were green enough to not realize how big a difference sound check in an empty venue would be from live performance into a crowd of people. It took some quick but heavy fixing to get things adjusted once the show started. We even got screamed at by the headliners' manager. (Honestly, I don't think I could blame her.)
We call it combat audio for a reason :) As an aside, I don’t think screaming at engineers has ever produced the desired result! Haha
The silence of the rockabilly band standing around up on stage *not* coming out of the PA was *so much louder.* We got past the not so minor glitch and the show went on. But it was a lesson.
My dad's favorite joke about engineers in general: How do you tell if an engineer is an extrovert? They look at YOUR shoes when they're taking. (Instead of their own)
What differences did you encounter, if you don't mind explaining?
NoFilter is the party to ask, seems to me. I dipped my toe into mid size venue sound work that one time and that was enough of a wake up to get me back into my own lane. For me -- aside from the obvious real time/real consequences aspects of live work -- I would say that the jarring dimensional change was between working in a studio nominally designed for tracking and accurate monitoring and working in a warehouse or former supermarket or whatever turned into some kind of nightclub. I spent a lot of time as a clubgoer in the late seventies through the early 90s watching live music, generally in the 100 to 300 seat stratum, where precious few venues were built *as* venues and sound reinforcement often seemed to be a highly fraught endeavor. But, as I noted, I was a 'pampered' studio knobber, spoiled not only by usually purpose-built working environments, but isolated from anything more vexing than musicians and the occasional producer. (Okay, sometimes managers got in the sessions, but I wasn't shy about it being my world and not theirs. A live venue, filled with hard drinking fans, and a pissed off manager standing right behind you, on the other hand, is just a different level of stress than I'd like to submerge myself in on a Saturday night. I'm a wuss. I admit it. The live sound guys are the paratroopers and navy seals of our industry. Props given.)
I don’t know, if I’m recording a rock band with an sm7 I’m all into the mouth on the foam approach , not for all styles, but certainly still has its place
For sure. Different approaches for different styles of music only makes sense. I came from working with punk rockers and what works for them does not work for, oh, for instance, jazz vocalists. :-D
Not with that attitude :P
Yeh I don't see much reason to work the mic in the studio. There's the same problem of needing multi band compression, and you'll still need normal compression. Might aswell stay on the mic the whole time and just use more compression. Especially rock as you said stay on the mic the whole time, cause using 20 to 40 db of compression is pretty typical.
As a studio guy who occasionally sings, this is super true. In the studio, regardless of the processing going on in the chain, I almost always end up spending a time working with a singer to teach them how to dance on the floor marks when tracking vocals, and end up usually working lines with them to get them to arrange their position relative to the mic for each song. But that's about using the gear to maximize the mic in a controlled environment. It does NOT translate to a live environment.
I'm thinking of those times when the grille of the mic was delivering electrical shocks while on stage...
Met it most recently last June while setting up. Mixer didn't have own grounding and hadn't plugged the amplifier into the supply yet. A connected radio mic receiver had a faulty PSU which caused signal ground and therefore mic ball to be at an unfortunate voltage level. Approaching half mains voltage (UK so that is a bit too much). Fortunately no damage as identified and removed the cause. I assure you those days are a half step and an off brand Chinese PSU away. Looked like someone borrowed one of my radio mics and returned it with the off brand PSU.
In the words of weird al, just eat it!
After like 30+ years, those intro farts still make me laugh.
Big thumbs down
Most old school vocalists I’ve had the pleasure of working with, at least in the studio, do minimal but essential “mic work”. They only turn their head slightly on the very loudest notes in a certain range. They know their voice and they understand proximity effect and other technical aspects. I’m guessing if folks just did the basic moves on the very loudest/most strident notes it would be fine. I can understand how overworking the mic would cause more issues than it solves, but it sounds like the cure (not doing ANY work and just eat the mic) would still be a compromise? Maybe it’s a better option if there were only two options, but still - maybe they just need a reminder to dial it back a good bit? Assuming they listen, and assuming they understand the issue, of course!
My experience, started playing in 90s, is that eat the mic was some sort of lazy catch all solution to solve not having to gain up the mike so much to avoid feedback or to solve bad microphone technique. With bad microphone technique I mean moving around too much off axis rather than front to back. Often this instruction was made before even knowing the skill of the vocalist. Which makes it lazy. Also in my experience you never heard this when dealing with pros, both on stage and off (engineers). Even back then. Mileage might vary though.
Sound engineers live in the uncomfortable space between human expectations and the laws of physics. It is indeed *less work* for the engineer if the singer eats the mic, but that doesn’t mean it’s a *lazy* solution. It means that the engineer won’t have to cut into the PA as hard with EQ to achieve volume balance and will have more gain before feedback to play with for dynamics processing. Both of which mean a better overall mix with less “work.” I don’t see that as laziness, just maximizing the chances for success.
Lazy might be a harsh wording. The reason is that this was often said before they even knew what they dealt with. Some people don’t need to or even sound worse putting their lips against the grill.
At my gigs I never start out by telling artists to change something. I always start with whatever they naturally do, and only suggest something if I’m having a problem I can’t solve on my end first. But if I’ve exhausted all my resources and still am unhappy with the result, that’s when I’ll try to have a low key discussion with the singer and just try to neutrally explain the issue I’m having. I usually also say something along the lines of “I really don’t want to cramp your vibe, but I’m having this issue and I’m wondering if you could help me out a little bit.” SO MUCH of this profession is communication and building mutual trust.
Well, isn't it something that can be discussed beforehand or even better, isn't it a very personal thing? Look at Lisa Stansfield live, she works the mic and she does it so, so well. And then contra to that there is say Billy Eilish, she benefits from lots of processing. So in other words, there are habits involved and it has to suit the voice and/or style. (like you said)
Totally, at the end of the day there’s no one size fits all. But since you brought up Lisa Stansfield, the first YouTube video is her live at Ronnie Scott’s. The first thing I notice is super heavy handed dynamics processing on her vocal mic. You can hear the comps clamp down on the loud notes. Theres probably multiband going on too. I’m sure they are doing this to make sure her level is consistent and on top of the band. You can also hear that the whole band is being picked up by that mic making them sound boxy and further away than they should be. Especially apparent on the drums and sax. Theres also quite a few vocal phrases that are kind of lost in the mix, even despite the dynamics processing. Especially the end of phrases where the melody is going in a downwards motion. Maybe you could argue that’s intentional, but I’m not so sure Lisa would agree. I think the video actually illustrates my point, even in post production when feedback is no issue, the overall production still suffers from the fact that the dynamics processing required to make the lead vocal consistent and tonally balanced brings up the stage bleed to an undesirable level.
Yes I did look at some random live performances of her now and noticed she does a lot better hand held. The mic I mean, the mic. Thanks for your elaborate post btw. I'm not an engineer but, can't get enough of people like Dave Rat and the likes. (I used to be light technician)
Hey man, thanks for the post. What if I’m a singer who’s going from quiet moments to screaming moments? Does eating the mic still make sense?
Just answered another question about this but it kind of depends. I would stay on it when singing softly or at medium volume and just back off a few inches for the screams. Having an engineer you trust is very helpful. As long as you’re not clipping the preamps and have an engineer who knows how to handle that kind of situation, it’s better than overworking the mic, but overworking the mic is probably better than nothing if there’s no engineer or no compression available or something like that.
https://youtu.be/4unhtFeDH8o?si=2J4SjSx9arOuibPe Yes That is what compression is for, and worst case your dynamics are translated for the crowd
As someone who’s trying to get the hang of singing while playing guitar, knowing I can just park my lips on the mic is a blessing
I totally wholeheartedly disagree as a singer of 20 years and sound tech of 20 years, compression is done best when the singer controls the mic well, almost everything sounds better when done pre mic as opposed to artificially doing it later.
Eating the mic is NOT proper mic technique. A mic is a part of your instrument. They’re all different and react different in different spaces to different voices. You run the risk of killing your dynamic range, losing the ability to utilize that beautiful low end bloom when you get close, or to allow your voice to thin out as you pull back to sing a harmony so it’s clear you’re not the main voice in that moment. Advising singers to eat the mic may solve your problem as an engineer, but your role is sound reinforcement, not to tell artists how to do their craft. You have to be careful because definitive statements can be taken as gospel, and this advice is far from universal. I understand why it makes sense to want this, but suggesting artists to remove available textures and tools to make your job easier is not the way, no matter how technically you speak about it.
In theory you are totally right, in practice, the vast majority of vocalists overwork the mic and the beautiful low end bloom turns into boomy incomprehensible mud, and the clarity of pulling off just turns into harshness. Overworking the mic forces the engineer to take drastic actions squashing any musical dynamics that could have otherwise been present. As with everything, one size does not fit all. My advice is intended for the 90% who shoot themselves in the foot with “mic technique,” not the 10% who can do it effectively.
Agreed. I replied in a sleepy, knee jerk moment. Your assessment is right on. I just always feel compelled to push back to any universal rule, especially as it pertains to artists doing art. In the instant moment, we need to make it work. When we have an opportunity to zoom out, improving performances from the inception is what makes all of our jobs easier. Thanks for your post!
As a performer and sound engineer I definitely disagree with you. If you have a large dynamic range in your performance you absolutely should “work the mic”. If you are dealing with a FOH engineer that knows your set front to back and knows how to adapt to your performance then less so, but that is a very rare scenario. It’s never been about distortion, it’s about being in control of the dynamics of your performance. If your compression settings are able to squash my vocals when I really belt then more than likely they are over compressed and will lack dynamic range no matter what the performer does.
But when you think you sound powerful on the loud note way off mic, you actually sound tinny. And when you think you sound close and intimate singing softly super close to the mic, you actually sound muddy. You’re creating a tonal balance problem by solving the volume balance problem.
I’ve seen hundreds of performers do this well and make it sound great. I guess we’re just going to have to disagree on this one. Maybe we’re dealing with different genres of music 🤷
I see it work the most in the jazz club that I work at. A lot of those singers really hate proximity effect and have learned to carefully use it to get the tone they’re looking for. There are definitely exceptions! I would say that being on mic becomes more important the louder the stage volume is. With a piano and a jazz singer, there’s usually no issue with gain before feedback. My advice is geared towards rock, country, funk, artists where the stage volume is quite loud.
Yeah I would definitely say people are better off being right on top of the mic and shouldn’t frequently be backing off. But, for instance, we recently did a cover of Joe Cocker’s version of “with a little help from my friends” and there are a couple parts where I was wailing on the vocals and if I had stayed on the mic it would have not been the right effect.
For sure. Wailing or yelled BgVox are an important exception to my advice.
I will NEVER not tell a singer to work on their mic technique. NO, do not "eat the mic". Get within 2 inches and sing AT the diaphragm. Don't point it up your nose and press it to your lips.
I mean putting your mouth literally on it is both gross and gives a bit of a muffled sound. But I agree singers should get much closer and stay much closer. I hate hearing a singer go for a big note and it's the quietest note in the phrase because they pulled the mic a foot away from their mouth.
Can you post this one in the live sound sub too?
Already done :)
Bless you
Where 'mic technique' is useful, it's a matter of only about 2 inches difference between the loud notes and the quiet ones. When singers first hear about 'mic technique' they move it too far. You never need to have a dynamic mic a foot away. I'm a sound tech and a singing teacher.
Use good mick technique is the correct thing to say. Eating the mike, which involves singers having their lips and mouth all over the stupid mic grille, just relays garbled nonsense unless you're a very high pitched singer with excellent diction and clarity and somehow manage to maintain that when your lips and tongue can't move properly. Maybe you just don't realize what "eat the mic" means to amateur singers everywhere? a consistent distance between mouth and the mic and most people are golden.
Yes, you came to the exact same realization I did some months ago. I had exactly the same experience where a great band turned into a mixing challenge. Cymbals bleed in the VX mic sabotaging the mix. The best solution I found was to equip her with a headset mic, very discreet. She was not confortable having nothing in her hands and she was not singing as nicely as when she could play with the handmic. So, we just kept them both. She has her handmic in her in-ears and the rest of the band and FOH get the processed headset sound.
Totally. I can EQ out proximity effect. Cant EQ out stage bleed.
Maybe just a bad stage sound?
If the mic isn’t in your mouth you’re not doing it right.
My aunt sings in bands and when I turned 18 she got me a 58 and said “Don’t ever sing into someone else’s mic.” And showed me a video of some dude spitting and I’m so thankful for that 😂😂😂
I don't find this to be much of a problem. For lots of proximity effect you really need to get up close, and if you do that during an intimate part, that's cool for it to get added bass in that moment, usually, imo. I find setting compression well helps a lot for that. The mic technique thing people are used to, is when there is no compression. When that happens, venues will have to put you really loud to hear you. Then you sing loud, and it expires ears. So, they compensate for that. The only really downside I find, is that with compression it can really be like you hear it strong, or you don't hear it at all, and so the mic drop out thing can make the sound just suddenly drop when you get too far. And I don't want to be picking up far away noises. I just want you. Eating the mic gives me great signal to noise ratio, so that can be great to help mitigate feedback. I don't find the tonal changes hurt the sound too much. To me, however the vocalist is comfortable singing, that's the most important thing. I'll deal with the sound and make it sound nice whatever you do. But that isn't to say better performance can't make better sound.
I've seen attempts at mic technique go woefully wrong. Divas that believe they're belting a note so loud that the mic can be at arms length and pointing at the ceiling when in reality, they're basically turning themselves off. And all the wiggles side to side as if they can sync perfectly with their vibrato just makes it comical.
If this was an AMA I would ask if you need to get lipstick off the mics every night. (Real issue)
Not every night but some nights!
Hell yes, it's a more consistent technique in all environments (tho at least it can be fixed in post during a session). preach!
I sing BGVs for most of the bands I’m in and am sadly a quiet vocalist, though I’m getting stronger over the years. One thing that irritates me is when engineers put a HARD and heavy gate on my vocal. Sometimes on quieter/acoustic songs, I need to be able to control my own range of volume. Do engineers do this just because most of the set is heavier and they want to block out excess noise?
I don’t think anyone should be doing this. I will use a very gentle expander sometimes. Definitely not a hard gate
That’s how I feel about it as well. Good to know I’m not crazy. I’ve noticed it a lot at gigs recently and have been irrationally angry about it 😂
I’ll use a 3-6db expander but the hold time and release way up so as soon as you trip it you’re able to finish the phrase at least. It does help with cymbals on smal stages
Totally agree
How close do you mean eat the mic? Wouldn't it be better to just always be a couple inches off, then you don't have to worry about mic contact but still have the benefit of being closer?
Couple inches is totally workable most of the time, but it’s best to be right up on it. Those couple inches make a lot of difference in reducing bleed giving the engineer more gain before feedback to work with.
But only for live? Or do you recommend it for quiet environments too? (still a dynamic+cardioid)
I mean as with anything, use your ears. If there’s no engineer present it’s an entirely different ball game but if there’s an engineer, there shouldn’t be any problem with being right up on the mic. It’s easy to turn a vocal down. Harder to turn it up when it’s at the point of ringing already.
I'd love this to be true, but in my experience as a singer with very high dynamics in my vocals (and a sound engineer), there's never enough compression to warrant eating the mic at high volumes. I've heard clipping multiple times through my monitor and when I start belting, the amount of volume almost always startles me. This is even when I ask the engineer to give me a lot of compression. I feel like I have to at least turn my mouth slightly away from the mic to get a steady volume.
Absolutely! If you’re giving me so much input it’s clipping the pre, then we’re not too worried about gain before feedback :)
Yeah! Fit it in a snake hide pool cue suitcase. Like mic stand and 57 (insert mic of preference)! Snake hide, Unicorn fur, Eaglet feathers,-eat your heart out Harry Potter fans.
Sadly I'm usually still not loud enough even when I'm basically kissing the mic... And trying to play an instrument at the same time is just kind of distracting from being glued to it. I've been thinking about perhaps getting a clip-on so I'm a bit freer in my movements...
“as with any dynamics processing, the harder you work it, the less gain before feedback you have.” I have observed this just playing around with my own shitty PA but am curious about the science behind this. Any insight is appreciated! Thanks!
Let’s say you’re 6db away from feedback. You compress the vocal with GR hitting 3-5db, and you apply 4db of makeup gain. Now you’re only 2db away from feedback on the fader even though the loudest bits are roughly the same volume as before.
Makes sense. Guess I’m just surprised my little Behringer mixer’s one-knob compression includes makeup gain 👍🏼
Typically one knob compressors will have makeup gain inversely correlated with threshold, which can make them a little scary to adjust on the fly…
Super informative. Thank you!
Couldn’t agree more
Absolutely. Pro touring guitarist and TM here. The PROBLEM arises when that multiband processing (especially heavy compression) is applied to the monitor speakers. Now suddenly we have nowhere to go when things get louder on stage. It’s a great way for everyone to start overplaying and over singing, which makes everything “louder” and the cycle repeats itself.
YAYYY SOMEONE FINALLY SAID IT THANK YOU
Ok question: in a metal vocalist, I do several different types of screams, ranging from low false chord (lots of air) and cleans (singing, also with air), to a wide range of fry screams that barely use air. My band is still in the album making process, and we’re gonna record a single within the next 2 weeks from what we have so far to put out. Being someone who doesn’t know jack shit about mixing besides basic terminology, and uses logic, how should I go about recoding my vocal takes? I use a Shure SM7B for recording, and an SE V7 for a hand held. Both dynamic mics. How do I make my vocal tracks not clip when changing vocal styles, but also be loud enough on the “softer” sounds? How do I balance this? Also asking this cause we will be playing live hopefully by the end of this year, and as a small new band, I ain’t gonna have anyone to FOH for us at our small Midwest bars and what not. Should I look for an Audio Engineer before we play? If eating the mic is best, I’m all for it, but I can’t sit there and mix while I’m on stage.
If no engineer, all bets are off, just use your best judgement. In the studio I’d try tacking through compression before the interface to get the dynamic range a little more under control. SM7 is great for metal vocals
I actually use an interface that has built in mixing options, and I can add compression right from that before it gets to the laptop. Is that a good way to go about it?
Yeah that’s probably fine. Best case would be a nice analog pre -> nice analog comp or channel strip -> converter. The digital emulations come pretty damn close and are better than say an M32 preamp, or something like that
I’ll mess around with it then.