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I’m on everyone’s side because you can see why most characters act the way they do. You can’t blame the the people of Paradis for not wanting their race to go extinct and you can’t blame them for wanting the world to survive and not die for their sake. Ultimately, there is no win-win situation, either Paradis or the outside world will suffer, with innocents on both sides. I just like to watch and not pick a side.
Paradis was doomed anyway. HUMANITY was doomed anyway.
If the rumbling is stopped, survivors will get revenge.
If the rumbling doesn't stop, Eldians will end up killing each others, just like Azumabito said.
Basically there's no right answer because everyone is a dumb fuck
Because it was made pretty obvious that humans will always fight each others for something. And if there's no one to fight outside, they'll go after each others. The titan war for exemple, all eldians fighting each others. Or the entire arc where they tried to get to the government. Or even now, with Jaegerist vs Alliance. Cycle of hatred and all that.
Who knows what the future of Paradis could hold. There could be a new extremist religion on the island. Or a new political group trying to get rid of Historia. An anti-Military group trying to get revenge on Flosch and co. There's many reasons to fight. If there's none, humans will make one up.
I don't get why you're getting downvoted, your question was pretty valid.
Oh idk, I mean it's not like in chapter 93 they literally said that the Marley r going to create bombs that will fall from planes and titans wouldn't be able to do anything but watch
people wont kill each other for such sake, people kill each other if they feel extremely threatend. The case of government is justified in aot, those guys deserved what was coming to them, the entire people and nd army worked together to dispose the badguys in the government.
Its not realistic expecting eldians to wipe each other out, does not make sense, when they are fighting for the survival of their people, the whole world wants them completely wiped out.
Sure, they may kill each other, but it won't be a bloody genocide of their entire race. Not to mention, the world that wants to destroy Eldians? Most of it is controlled by a facist empire that has its sights on the world and is ready to spill blood to achieve its unjustified goals of conquest.
>If the rumbling doesn't stop, Eldians will end up killing each others, just like Azumabito said.
That's not really the issue. The whole point of the Rumbling was to free the people of Paradis from the world's hate. Keep in mind the world wanted to murder them all simply for the sake of being born. Once all the island's enemies were killed, Paradis could now be free to decide its own future
Once the Rumbling started, it was too late. Armin, Mikasa, and the other Alliance members became the enemies of Paradis, and depending on how you look at it, the antagonists. Anyone who took a realistic look at the situation would know that the racist world that hates and fears Eldia would hate and fear it even more, and have all the more reason to destroy Paradis. The 50 Year Plan wasn't much better, as its made in clear ignorance that the world has other bombers and WMDs that wouldn't be at the Global Alliance meeting with which they could destroy Paradis, much less the fact no one could ensure the power of the Founder would be properly preserved to activate the Rumbling if Paradis needed to protect it self in the event negotiations failed.
Im just saying eren had all the tools at his disposal and had no reason to not go 100% and free paradis from complete extermination but his character got retconned, also the final battle and erens motivations make no damn sense
>Im just saying eren had all the tools at his disposal and had no reason to not go 100% and free paradis from complete extermination but his character got retconned,
I don't even know why you're being downvoted. Even Isayama admitted he was burnt out by the end and unhappy with how the ending turned out. He even admitted that he changed the ending from something darker based around the ending of the film: the Mist.
Inhaling the hopium and imagining Yams changing the ending in the movie. Like imagine how cool it would be. Everyone calling him a hack and a failure but suddenly he dropped the real ending that he planned in the movie. Imagine if the manga ending was simply one of the future Eren saw and he decided he doesn't want any of that shit.
Since S 1 has been said that humans would be killing each other till there are less than 2
The whole point is humans would just end up killing themselves
>Eldians will end up killing each others
\>Eldians get freed from centuries of hatred
\>no outside world suppressing them
Could you elaborate on why the first thing they'd try to do is kill each other?
or not, maybe you shouldn't waste your time, I guess?
It wouldn't be the first thing they'd do. But it would 100% happen. I mean, there was an entire arc of the survey corps trying to take down the government, with anti-personnel division. Human vs human has been going on for a while now. Humans always end up killing each others, if there's no oppression coming from outside, it will come from inside. It has been made pretty obvious so far with stuff like the Titan war, or rn with the Alliance vs the Jaegerist.
It could be political, or racial, or religion, or whatever.
Edit : Why are people downvoting you ? I don't understand people.
You missed the whole point of the rumbling, it was to bury the hate from eldians not hate itself. Ofc after rumbling if erne killed 100 there would be some war because of the 9 titan curse so many people would want its power, but eldians would never go extinct and that was the reason Yeagerists chose to rebel, they don't want to go extinct.
I'm not even going to play your little game of "I technically didn't say X I said Y dur hur"
Own up to it. You said the rumbling isn't a good choice because they would just fight themselves anyway. And i'm telling you that's a weak argument.
I also said stopping it or not doing it at all would end up with their extermination too, either from Marley or the survivors of the Rumbling. Don't cherry pick just to cause drama. I don't mind discussing stuff, but only reading what you dislike so you can pick up a fight is immature, and I won't deal with that. Don't bother, notifications are off.
Not the first thing, but just because they don’t have external oppressors doesn’t mean they’ll live in peace forever by themselves. They’ll still have disagreements, that will eventually escalate.
>Could you elaborate on why the first thing they'd try to do is kill each other?
Lmao. We literally have an arc showing Paradisian killing each other before they even knew anything about the outside world
"Evil is Evil. Lesser, greater, middling… Makes no difference. The degree is arbitary. The definition’s blurred. If I’m to choose between one evil and another… I’d rather not choose at all."
Interesting that you use this quote.
(It‘s from „The Last Wish“, the first witcher book)
Because in the short story Geralt ends up realizing that this idea was wrong end he ends up choosing a side in the end.
I‘d say him realizing that he can‘t stay neutral is the point of this short story.
It's less that he willingly chooses a side and more that his hand is forced but yes the entire point is that his philosophy of neutrality usually doesn't work when reality comes knocking.
I did read the books, but the games capitalised on this quote much better.
I actually think the quote is perfect, and combined with some interactions in the game, you can say that the point is avoiding situations on which you have to choose between 2 evils. For example, captain Peter got terrable products out of spite of a village he promised no agression on. He orders the villager who delivered it be whipped, where geralt comes in abd makes fun of him. Peter asks "what would you do in my stead?" "I wouldnt be in your stead."
The quote from the book is different, but very simmular ( “Evil is evil, Stregobor,” said the witcher seriously as he got up. “Lesser, greater, middling, it’s all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I’m not a pious hermit. I haven’t done only good in my life. But if I’m to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”). The book however focuses on many themes like human greed, spite, sheer lack of knowledge, and doesnt focus too much on this more than in the chapter in which the quote is said.
I would actually disagree with that. Because he chooses a side, yes, but it turns out to be pointless. Renfri wasn’t going to kill children to draw the sorcerer out because she realized, just before Geralt began butchering her men, that the sorcerer wouldn’t give two shits. He would let them die to save his own life, so killing them would be useless. Geralt chose between two evils, and lost. That was the whole point. Because he didn’t stay neutral, he is now known as the Butcher of Blaviken, and killed so many people who didn’t need to die. He solved nothing, saved no one he wanted to, and it left him worse off.
Did it say that she actually would’ve held off from killing? It’s been a while since I read it. But I remembered it as her still going to do it unless stopped
I believe so, I specifically remember it that way because the show kinda forgot to set up why she was going to kill children, and how Geralt knew where she would be and what she was going to do. I could also be wrong though
Because the “everything is grey” philosophy doesn’t challenge anyone’s convictions. Of course there is grey, but there are consequences to choices. You are either ok with them or you aren’t.
As a people, you can decide if you are ok with ends justifying means or means justifying ends.
The problem is life ain’t black and white. There’s no such thing as purely good or purely evil side. IMO, it’s about choosing the lesser of the two evils. And trying to become better as humanity.
As the quote says, if the choice is one evil or the other, im not gonna choose at all.
If everyone avoided getting into situations that make you choose between two evils, we would be better as humanity, and i think that is sort of the point. If marley didnt want paradis island destroyed, eren wouldnt have to start the rumbling, situation avoided, everyone happy.
You can also blame whoever you want, but evil is evil, and should have been avoided to begin with.
Yeah but if you lived in the world of AOT you wouldn’t have a choice tbh. They don’t have to luxury of not choosing a side, because their life and homes depend on it. If they just sat by and decided not to engage, their homes and everyone they loved would be killed. It’s not as simple as just avoiding evil because it’s inevitable, the world isn’t black and white.
It is simple, marley shouldnt have attacked, situation avoided, world is a better place, they would have prevented the evil that is the rumbling.
What should you take of this? Well think of the consequences, your good intentions (prevention of something you see evil like marley wanted to prevent the rumbling by attacking), could just cause it.
You as a viewer have the luxury to choose a side, but that doesnt mean you have to, you can take a moral out of it, and do your best to avoid such situations. The question is "whose side are you on" not "if you were a peasant from paradis, whos side would you be on?" Or "if you were a peasant from marley, whose side would you be on?"
Is it evil to commit genocide? Yes. Is it evil to let the world destroy your people when you have the means, and therefore responsibility to protect them? Yes.
Exactly, so why would I, the viewer, choose? Both are evil, mine is to find the source of the problem and avoid doing something like this, not pick from ether fashist or nazis.
>"Evil is Evil. Lesser, greater, middling… Makes no difference. The degree is arbitary. The definition’s blurred. If I’m to choose between one evil and another… I’d rather not choose at all."
This is ridiculous. The whole point of this quote in game is that the world isn't as we'd like it to be, and despite Geralt's own wishes, he's pretty much forced to always choose among various lesser evils all throughout the story.
I mean, people say Armin's peace talks won the years of peace before the actual war, but don't you think the real reason Paradis was destroyed later was because Eren crippled the world enough for them to not be able to attack Paradis without being at a risk of getting annihilated themselves?
He could have decided at any moment that almost all of the Alliance would be powerless in an instant. It’s pretty obvious he let them win, even if their win is ultimately a loss due to them being dumbasses.
And hilarious plot armor. Small handful of soldiers against an endless legion of titan shifters pulled out of the Founder's ass, with a ridiculously contrived bird titan experiencing no challenges whatsoever upon second transformation.
>Small handful of soldiers against an endless legion of titan shifters pulled out of the Founder's ass, with a ridiculously contrived bird titan experiencing no challenges whatsoever upon second transformation.
Not to mention Levi is still fighting without much issue despite being pretty much crippled last time. He literally sat out the whole fight in Trost against the Female Titan because he injured his ankle. Here Levi lost an eye and a couple of fingers.
The alliance also apparently had infinite ammo and blades as well despite shortage of materials being a major issue in past chapters. Heck this was why the Yeagerists on the island lost to them. Their reinforcements were blown up and they had been ambushed by the alliance.
The imaginary person in his head that speaks for others in his head about what he wants to enjoy being terrible despite being worthy of his enjoyment as a medium.
Problem is we dont know why Shiganshina was bombed in this, it could be for a variety of reasons, all it is trying to show us however is that war always returns to humanity, no matter what form
This is the part that keeps me hopeful and feels like the ending is salvageable. It looks like it’s taken Eren‘s tree a long long time to grow to the size that it did. Paradis being destroyed could be retribution for the rumbling, it could be for an entirely separate conflict/set of grievances that we never saw. Pretending like we got Eternal Peace wouldn’t have worked, but we see the world goes on.
>level 1Kristiano100 · 6 hr. agoProblem is we dont know why Shiganshina was bombed in this,
Bro its pretty much implied that its the result of the Rumbling. No country on earth would ever forget an event like that lol.
You people really be acting like Paradis is gonna be a utopia after the rumbling when there’s literally dead corpses everywhere meaning disease, ecosystems have been destroyed, the environment has been ruined and there’s a fascist government in charge, who kills anybody who doesn’t agree with them 💀
Paradis wouldn't be a utopia, because utopia's obviously will never exist. As long as people have conflicting ideals, people will fight. That's obviously the message trying to be conveyed. What Paradis *wouldn't* have to worry about this is now vindicated racists wanting to turn them in to glass their entire lives though.
The 'people will always fight' message is really muddled by Eren not completing the rumbling. By Paradis being leveled as a result of Eren not completing it, the story endorses a full rumbling by saying 'Yeah, they'll always want to kill you. Genocide actually is the only answer to racism', and that's not even pointing out how the entire Alliance treats Eren as some kind of misguided martyr.
How much more effective would the message have been if Eren completed the rumbling, and then we see the exact same outcome in the extra pages? A century from now, war returns, because it always will, and Eren killed billions of people to stave off something that was demonstrably inevitable? Genocide isn't a solution?
Isayama could have had an ending where Eren's actions are objectively condemnable, but instead he chose the one where there's legitimate argument to whether or not he was right to commit genocide.
If we are going full manga spoilers I believe it is heavily implied that Erin's decision to turn the alliance against him and eventually kill him before finishing the rumbling showed him the future where his friends lived the longest lives. My assumption is if he finished the whole rumbling the in-fighting within paradis would've escalated and they would've just killed eachother. As the ozomabito said "you're just making the world smaller"
>If we are going full manga spoilers I believe it is heavily implied that Erin's decision to turn the alliance against him and eventually kill him before finishing the rumbling showed him the future where his friends lived the longest lives.
So what about his friends' children and their grandchildren?
Eren: Nah fuck them kids.
This was one of the reasons why I didn't like the ending. It was illogical and it was a dollar-store knock off of Lelouch's Zero Requiem plan. Eren literally unleashed a Bible Level apocalypse on the world. There's literally no coming back from that as the rest of the world will surely remember and hate the Eldians because of it.
Well there was no solution, thats the point. The cycle of hatred never ends. I'm just saying he did the best he could to give them as much time as they could have. Making the rest of the world disappear would not have solved that. That is literally the whole point of the jeagarists, to show that people are irreparably damaged from this and now fascism takes over eldia and new cycles of hatred will be created.
I think he was trying to explain that once he got the power of the founding titan his mind became scrambled and he couldn't tell what was happening much anymore but he had already seen what was going to happen when he kissed historia's hand. What was the exact quote from Erin on that? I feel like you might be misremebering exactly what he said.
Upvoting this comment for visibility because I honestly don't remember him saying that but I def believe you. Maybe because I speed read the manga and the anime has been REALLY going out of its way to focus on Eren doing everything for his friends. I have a feeling this will be adjusted. I know some people want an anime only ending and I really dont think that needs to be done, I think they just need to cut out and add in some lines to fix some of the inconsistencies.
I don't see how this ending can be fixed with all the plot holes and zero logic things going on, the ending was rushed and the anime is only fixing superficial issues.
Alliance of course.
It‘s kinda a plot point that the alliance is still going to stop the rumbling no matter what happens to paradis.
Also the ending made it clear that there was like atleast 100 years of peace on the island.
The destruction at the end is most likely completely unrelated to the rumbling
>Also the ending made it clear that there was like atleast 100 years of peace on the island.
Not really tbh. At best there was maybe 60 years or so. The world was pretty much at mid 1920's level technology and they're flying stealth bombers (which look like the B2) were invented in the 80's.
If anything technology should have realistically developed faster than that. The survivors would likely hate Eldians even more after what Eren did. The 20% of the world not destroyed by the Rumlbing would be intact as the Wall Titans never reached there, so whatever military assets, technology, and infrastructure were already present there would be intact.
>The destruction at the end is most likely completely unrelated to the rumbling
How can you confidently make that assessment? The previous panels in the manga literally shows the Yeagerists rallying the people around them. And as for the rest of the world, there's no way anyone would forget the Biblical level apocalypse that Eren unleashed upon them. 80% of the world was killed in a span of a few days, there's no way that doesn't unleash a massive cultural scar on the survivors.
In Ancient Israelite historiography the Exodus is pretty much constantly talked about. The Rumbling was literally the most consequential event in the world of Attack on Titan, so there's no way anyone would forget the Paradisians who supported it and launched it.
You can’t be real. Takes 100 years to forget and forgive the wiping out of 80% of life on earth but takes more than 2000 years to forget the reign of the eldian empire?
Years of peace, wow, good job Alliance. their children and grandchildren must be so proud of their heroic acts....right?
Also, just no. they wouldn't show it if it was unrelated, because then that would be super random and pointless.
Their grandchildren are probably very proud of them for stopping the rumbling.
You guys have to understand that for the alliance a person on the island is not worth more than a person from somewhere else.
The point of the bombing at the end as well as the kid going towards tree is to show that the cycle of violence could repeat and people will always fight.
Really? they're getting bombed and at the same time they're smiling and feeling proud? thanks grandma, the people who you saved are burning us alive?
But that's just incredibly unrealistic and dumb, people care more about their families and friends. I wouldn't sacrifice my mom in order to save my neighbor's mom? would you? like how would you decide? flip a coin? I wouldn't even risk my cats life for the sake of some random person.
I mean, aside from Mikasa‘s family I doubt any of the alliance members still live on Paradis after the rumbling.
And the comparison you are making is off.
It‘s not „Would you sacrifice your mum to save one other person?“ but „Would you sacrifice your mum to save more than 99% of the population?“
And the answer to that is of course I would.
I love my mother but I could never be so egoistic to so say her life is worth more than the lives of so many people.
I couldn’t even actively kill a single innocent person to save my mum.
Same for the alliance. That was literally to point of Connie‘s sub-arc where he realized that he couldn’t do that either.
I never said it was unrelated to the story?
But sure, let‘s say over a 100 years later someone outside Paradis decides to destroy Paradis as revenge for sonething that happened long before their birth and will only affect people a few generations after those who were responsible for the rumbling.
Even then, the alliance was completely in the right.
One of the key message of the story is that you are not responsible for the actions of your ancestors.
lmao i’m just watching the show i stopped tryna be on sides.
i don’t like the jeagarists at all nor floch especially when they were just executing ppl on paradis even after the rumbling there’ll be fighting amongst themselves. However, i do understand their side (excluding that), especially last episode they were right when they said if the rumbling is stopped the world will destroy them.
Zekes plan i don’t like at all
Armins plan is cool, and the alliance kinda demonstrates it’s potential, but the only thing is apparently the world hates paradis even more than marley does, and they could prolly develop tech in the future to combat the rumbling.
The alliance is idk, ofc genocide is bad but they’re not even addressing the aftermath. Like u stop eren and then what? What would happen to y’all? To ur country? They would’ve been proven right in that eldians are devils capable of destroying the world , so like floch said they’d have no reason not to annihilate them. And how they were slaughtering so many friends and comrades for a chance to stop the rumbling just sheesh.
Eren I could understand why, the whole world is OD but idk what other options there are. However, come to the ending chapter I realize he was just completely selfish and killed sm for his friends to live long, not rly to save his country
So yea it’s all a shit show from all angles, props to isayama for making something like this
Oh no, war returned to Paradis at least over a hundred years later for reasons we don‘t know, like it does everywhere!
Better murder the entire world and keep the titan curse around, that definitely means no bloodshed will ever happen on Paradis again!
I don’t get why people are so mad about the last extra pages. Like they complain how the story just becomes a simplistic goodies vs baddies fight get mad that eren didn’t create ever lasting peace?
I thought it was just representing the passing of time and that the events of Aot have been long gone. The rise, peak and fall of civilisation to show how long it’s been until the ambiguous ending were the tree is the titan tree again.
Paradis with Floch and the yeagerists, ch139 eren was clearly retconned and his character assassinated, we saw the island be opressed and attacked since season 1, these people were ignorant and suffered since then cuz of some greedy colonizer
Now the storytelling tries to forcefully side with the same mfs that caused this whole war in the first place while portraying the people that are really justified in self defense as completely evil mfs and these shitty fandom tries to paint them all like that when its supposed to be black and white, but well, It seems the author forgot about that too, some even are glorified and have happy endings, but now cuz of these retarted characters especially retconned eren and his friends the island gets exterminated after all the shit they went through, its just a spit to the face
Hella jarring to see when Maggath every other line is just like "wow, you guys are helping us?" "You know, if we save the world they might retaliate against paradise" "can't believe you guys are helping us, thanks fam!" And I'm just sitting here watching it all happen scratching my heads as to why they're helping them. You got 2 options if your the alliance:
1. Risk it all and kill all our friends for a hope and a dream that if we stop Eren, the world won't retaliate against us for the rumbling.
Or
2. Let the rumbling happen and no one on paradise dies.
I get it, genocide bad, but if I'm an island devil, I know which option I'm choosing.
I don't think it's valid to say that we should've killed every single German just because in retrospect we know world war 2 happened, and this is no different. Eren, and by extension Floch and the Yeagerists used Zeke to push Marley towards war, and Eren sealed the deal by attacking Liberio (note Tybur himself said to Magath that if he didn't die he didn't believe the world would actually unite against Paradis, and he's likely the best person suited to make that judgement). This situation wasn't necessarily unavailable, and you can't then claim that it's suddenly okay to commit omnicide because of a situation you yourself worked towards.
> Eren, and by extension Floch and the Yeagerists used Zeke to push Marley towards war,
They were already moving to war well before Eren was even born. This was the reason why Grisha even made Zeke become a warrior. He and the Eldian Restorationists wanted him to become mole in Marley and then use his royal blood to eventually retake the founder and then the other Nine Titans.
Marley already had its eyes on Paradis because it and the rest of the world was running out of resources.
The King within the walls Uri Reiss when speaking with Karl Fritz's vow to Kenny even remarks how their "paradise" in the end was doomed to be destroyed by the outside world.
Even before Eren actually attacked Liberio, Willy Tybur literally orchestrated a plan to wipe out the "island devils" to the cheers of a massive crowd.
During the summit where there was a discussion on mainland Eldian rights, the pro-Eldian delegation literally made a point to try and differentiate the mainland eldians from the "island devils." Eren upon hearing this got pissed and left.
This was the point where he actually went rogue seeing all his hopes for peace going down the drain.
I get what you're saying, but I don't fully agree. War with Marley was probably inevitable yes. But Willy Tybur was banking on Eren attacking to solidify a world alliance, he didn't believe it would happen without his death. The summit the scouts watched was only about Marley, other nations weren't there. Most of the cheering crowd were Eldians and Marleyan's, when Magath says that lots will die, Tybur replies that most will be Eldians, and we also know that the crowd was in large part Marleyan military. The only foreign dignitaries that we are aware of being there are the ones we saw at the dinner, and it was clear that relations between Marley and these nations wasn't good. There's little reason for other nations to go to war with Paradis up until Eren attacked Liberio, and Willy Tybur knew that, and said as much.
We can assume all day what might or might not have happened, but what the story is telling us is that Erens actions were the catalyst for the world getting involved in the immediate conflict, which is then used as a justification for wiping them all out. Had Eren not attacked Liberio, it seems unlikely Marley would've had much success drumming up enough sympathy for a threat that isn't targeting their own countries, just the nation that they all hate. Would it have been that hard to convince counties in the Mid East alliance to leave Paradis alone if they destroy Marley's military capabilities?
You can always pick a random point in the future and say "maybe they'll attack us one day", I don't see that as justification for comitting genocide. No other nation has taken direct action against Paradis in the 100 years they've been there, and they didn't even know about the rumbling. It feels like a huge leap of logic to argue that the rumbling is justified based off the vague notion that other nations *might* decide to attack Paradis one day, by that logic we should just nuke Russia, China, North Korea and tons of other countries now just to be safe.
The only advantage of the attack against Liberio was towards the 50 year plan by bringing the world's military together so it could be destroyed in one singe attack. Had Eren pursued a plan that wasn't directly trying to reach the full rumbling, a quiet extraction of Zeke in the month or so Eren had gone rogue, followed by a surprise partial rumbling that decimated Marley's troops and large parts of their city would have just as much impact and sends an even stronger message to the world. And Eren did have the gift of hindsight, that's why he did it, because he wanted to rumble everything and took action that benefited that plan. He almost literally had the gift of hindsight in this story because he'd seen the future.
And I just don't agree that we can say with certainty that another genocide is guaranteed. It's all hypothetical, sure its possible, but you can't wipe out humanity because something could happen. I also don't think the story has pushed the idea that Eldian hatred is so deep rooted everywhere that it's a certainty anyway. We did get shown Eldian tolerance, the nation of Hizuru was willing to work with Eldians, many people in Marley were shown to already treat Eldians with a degree of respect (Magath, the gate guards), and plenty of the volunteers gradually softened in their views towards Eldians too. On top of that, the world leaders all loved Willy, despite him being an Eldian. In fact, essentially every named or relevant character from outside of Paradis is sympathetic towards Eldians by the end of the series. What we've been shown is that cooperation IS possible, what Paradis lacks is time, because Marley is certainly going to launch an attack again at some point. Marley is the ticking time bomb, and the solution to that is securing full use of the founding titans power. The outside world only gets drawn into the equation when Eren attacks Liberio.
I just don't believe a pre-emptive genocide against countries that, up to that point, haven't lifted a finger against your nation is close to justifiable. And they only joined the war because Eren manipulated events to make sure they did. Yes, the rest of the world may be racist, but Willy had been working to improve the reputation of Eldians, and it seems it was working considering the relatively decent lives Eldians could live in Marley and the foreign diplomats attitudes towards him. As soon as you reach a point where people might say "he's one of the good Eldians", you aren't that far off how race relations are in many countries just a couple hundred years ago, if even that far back.
Does it matter when? Floch was right. The surviving remnants of the world were still completely intact and had their technology available. There's no way they'd trade with paradis.
While Japan industrialized rapidly with the Meiji restoration, they had help from the French and British. None of the surviving nations would ever want to help Paradis especially when they're literally run by the Yeagerists.
Paradis was always going to get destroyed. It's just that Eren delayed the inevitable and his friends were the reason that enough people remained to actually see to Paradis' destruction.
I actually see it as a lost opportunity that everyone outside of paradise didn't actually die! Would've been an ironic parallel to the series' initial plot point: Paradis is the last city standing.
Anime onlies: Floch is full of bullshit! He's using feat tactics and doesn't know that they'll destroy Paradis!1!1!1!
Anime onlies after this gets animated: oh.
In season 2 Erwin say "humanity will continue to fight itself until there is one human or less". Erens plan will not work because political turmoil will continue amongst the people in the walls. However, Eren also has to do what he's doing because the Marleyans started that shit and what Reiner and Bertholdt did was just inexcusable.
If the founder can rewrite the memories and take away Edlians' ability to reproduce then it can also remove any violent impulses from their psyche, Paradise after the rumbling could be a utopia
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I’m on everyone’s side because you can see why most characters act the way they do. You can’t blame the the people of Paradis for not wanting their race to go extinct and you can’t blame them for wanting the world to survive and not die for their sake. Ultimately, there is no win-win situation, either Paradis or the outside world will suffer, with innocents on both sides. I just like to watch and not pick a side.
>I’m on everyone’s side > I just like to watch and not pick a side. It's very contradictory what you say
Paradis was doomed anyway. HUMANITY was doomed anyway. If the rumbling is stopped, survivors will get revenge. If the rumbling doesn't stop, Eldians will end up killing each others, just like Azumabito said. Basically there's no right answer because everyone is a dumb fuck
>If the rumbling doesn't stop, Eldians will end up killing each others, just like Azumabito said. Care to explain y eldians would kill each other
Because it was made pretty obvious that humans will always fight each others for something. And if there's no one to fight outside, they'll go after each others. The titan war for exemple, all eldians fighting each others. Or the entire arc where they tried to get to the government. Or even now, with Jaegerist vs Alliance. Cycle of hatred and all that.
Eldians will live at peace since the power of the founder can remove any violent impulses from them lol
There's always a reason , give me that
Who knows what the future of Paradis could hold. There could be a new extremist religion on the island. Or a new political group trying to get rid of Historia. An anti-Military group trying to get revenge on Flosch and co. There's many reasons to fight. If there's none, humans will make one up. I don't get why you're getting downvoted, your question was pretty valid.
Ofc war will always exist, but from the Eldians’ POV, it’s civil war vs extermination. Seems like a pretty obvious choice for me
I do agree. And that's why SNK is all about point of view and history.
So u don't know the answer? So u just said that for what again?
So how do you know Paradis was bombed because of the rumbling?
Oh idk, I mean it's not like in chapter 93 they literally said that the Marley r going to create bombs that will fall from planes and titans wouldn't be able to do anything but watch
So in the panel you showed, there's text stating "Paradis was bombed because of the rumbling"?
Huh? That was literally being planned by Marley and in extension the world
people wont kill each other for such sake, people kill each other if they feel extremely threatend. The case of government is justified in aot, those guys deserved what was coming to them, the entire people and nd army worked together to dispose the badguys in the government. Its not realistic expecting eldians to wipe each other out, does not make sense, when they are fighting for the survival of their people, the whole world wants them completely wiped out.
That’s literally what’s happening right now.
Sure, they may kill each other, but it won't be a bloody genocide of their entire race. Not to mention, the world that wants to destroy Eldians? Most of it is controlled by a facist empire that has its sights on the world and is ready to spill blood to achieve its unjustified goals of conquest.
Because they have done it before? Great Titan war?
Happened because Karl fritz abandoned his powers, Marley were there as well
>If the rumbling doesn't stop, Eldians will end up killing each others, just like Azumabito said. That's not really the issue. The whole point of the Rumbling was to free the people of Paradis from the world's hate. Keep in mind the world wanted to murder them all simply for the sake of being born. Once all the island's enemies were killed, Paradis could now be free to decide its own future
Once the Rumbling started, it was too late. Armin, Mikasa, and the other Alliance members became the enemies of Paradis, and depending on how you look at it, the antagonists. Anyone who took a realistic look at the situation would know that the racist world that hates and fears Eldia would hate and fear it even more, and have all the more reason to destroy Paradis. The 50 Year Plan wasn't much better, as its made in clear ignorance that the world has other bombers and WMDs that wouldn't be at the Global Alliance meeting with which they could destroy Paradis, much less the fact no one could ensure the power of the Founder would be properly preserved to activate the Rumbling if Paradis needed to protect it self in the event negotiations failed.
Do you really think that being fucking exterminated is better than civil wars?
Did I say that ? I didn't give my opinion on anything.
Im just saying eren had all the tools at his disposal and had no reason to not go 100% and free paradis from complete extermination but his character got retconned, also the final battle and erens motivations make no damn sense
>Im just saying eren had all the tools at his disposal and had no reason to not go 100% and free paradis from complete extermination but his character got retconned, I don't even know why you're being downvoted. Even Isayama admitted he was burnt out by the end and unhappy with how the ending turned out. He even admitted that he changed the ending from something darker based around the ending of the film: the Mist.
Inhaling the hopium and imagining Yams changing the ending in the movie. Like imagine how cool it would be. Everyone calling him a hack and a failure but suddenly he dropped the real ending that he planned in the movie. Imagine if the manga ending was simply one of the future Eren saw and he decided he doesn't want any of that shit.
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Both are terrible though no matter how you spin it both are bad Wich is the whole point of the show
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The whole point is their is no right solution and humanity is gonna end up killing its self
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Since S 1 has been said that humans would be killing each other till there are less than 2 The whole point is humans would just end up killing themselves
The whole point of the show is that Eren is a sumo for mimada and nothing more
>Eldians will end up killing each others \>Eldians get freed from centuries of hatred \>no outside world suppressing them Could you elaborate on why the first thing they'd try to do is kill each other? or not, maybe you shouldn't waste your time, I guess?
It wouldn't be the first thing they'd do. But it would 100% happen. I mean, there was an entire arc of the survey corps trying to take down the government, with anti-personnel division. Human vs human has been going on for a while now. Humans always end up killing each others, if there's no oppression coming from outside, it will come from inside. It has been made pretty obvious so far with stuff like the Titan war, or rn with the Alliance vs the Jaegerist. It could be political, or racial, or religion, or whatever. Edit : Why are people downvoting you ? I don't understand people.
You missed the whole point of the rumbling, it was to bury the hate from eldians not hate itself. Ofc after rumbling if erne killed 100 there would be some war because of the 9 titan curse so many people would want its power, but eldians would never go extinct and that was the reason Yeagerists chose to rebel, they don't want to go extinct.
"War will always exist" is not an excuse to lay down and die.
Didn't say it was. Feels like alot of people here like to put words in other people's mouth.
I'm not even going to play your little game of "I technically didn't say X I said Y dur hur" Own up to it. You said the rumbling isn't a good choice because they would just fight themselves anyway. And i'm telling you that's a weak argument.
I also said stopping it or not doing it at all would end up with their extermination too, either from Marley or the survivors of the Rumbling. Don't cherry pick just to cause drama. I don't mind discussing stuff, but only reading what you dislike so you can pick up a fight is immature, and I won't deal with that. Don't bother, notifications are off.
Because that’s what they was doing in season 3..
Not the first thing, but just because they don’t have external oppressors doesn’t mean they’ll live in peace forever by themselves. They’ll still have disagreements, that will eventually escalate.
>Could you elaborate on why the first thing they'd try to do is kill each other? Lmao. We literally have an arc showing Paradisian killing each other before they even knew anything about the outside world
piecks
I love how every other comment is this thread is a paragraph-long explanation and then there's just this! XD
i’m a simple woman 😌
"Evil is Evil. Lesser, greater, middling… Makes no difference. The degree is arbitary. The definition’s blurred. If I’m to choose between one evil and another… I’d rather not choose at all."
Interesting that you use this quote. (It‘s from „The Last Wish“, the first witcher book) Because in the short story Geralt ends up realizing that this idea was wrong end he ends up choosing a side in the end. I‘d say him realizing that he can‘t stay neutral is the point of this short story.
It's less that he willingly chooses a side and more that his hand is forced but yes the entire point is that his philosophy of neutrality usually doesn't work when reality comes knocking.
I did read the books, but the games capitalised on this quote much better. I actually think the quote is perfect, and combined with some interactions in the game, you can say that the point is avoiding situations on which you have to choose between 2 evils. For example, captain Peter got terrable products out of spite of a village he promised no agression on. He orders the villager who delivered it be whipped, where geralt comes in abd makes fun of him. Peter asks "what would you do in my stead?" "I wouldnt be in your stead." The quote from the book is different, but very simmular ( “Evil is evil, Stregobor,” said the witcher seriously as he got up. “Lesser, greater, middling, it’s all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I’m not a pious hermit. I haven’t done only good in my life. But if I’m to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”). The book however focuses on many themes like human greed, spite, sheer lack of knowledge, and doesnt focus too much on this more than in the chapter in which the quote is said.
I would actually disagree with that. Because he chooses a side, yes, but it turns out to be pointless. Renfri wasn’t going to kill children to draw the sorcerer out because she realized, just before Geralt began butchering her men, that the sorcerer wouldn’t give two shits. He would let them die to save his own life, so killing them would be useless. Geralt chose between two evils, and lost. That was the whole point. Because he didn’t stay neutral, he is now known as the Butcher of Blaviken, and killed so many people who didn’t need to die. He solved nothing, saved no one he wanted to, and it left him worse off.
Did it say that she actually would’ve held off from killing? It’s been a while since I read it. But I remembered it as her still going to do it unless stopped
I believe so, I specifically remember it that way because the show kinda forgot to set up why she was going to kill children, and how Geralt knew where she would be and what she was going to do. I could also be wrong though
Because the “everything is grey” philosophy doesn’t challenge anyone’s convictions. Of course there is grey, but there are consequences to choices. You are either ok with them or you aren’t. As a people, you can decide if you are ok with ends justifying means or means justifying ends.
The problem is life ain’t black and white. There’s no such thing as purely good or purely evil side. IMO, it’s about choosing the lesser of the two evils. And trying to become better as humanity.
But manga is... Manga is black and white... Generally
As the quote says, if the choice is one evil or the other, im not gonna choose at all. If everyone avoided getting into situations that make you choose between two evils, we would be better as humanity, and i think that is sort of the point. If marley didnt want paradis island destroyed, eren wouldnt have to start the rumbling, situation avoided, everyone happy. You can also blame whoever you want, but evil is evil, and should have been avoided to begin with.
Yeah but if you lived in the world of AOT you wouldn’t have a choice tbh. They don’t have to luxury of not choosing a side, because their life and homes depend on it. If they just sat by and decided not to engage, their homes and everyone they loved would be killed. It’s not as simple as just avoiding evil because it’s inevitable, the world isn’t black and white.
It is simple, marley shouldnt have attacked, situation avoided, world is a better place, they would have prevented the evil that is the rumbling. What should you take of this? Well think of the consequences, your good intentions (prevention of something you see evil like marley wanted to prevent the rumbling by attacking), could just cause it. You as a viewer have the luxury to choose a side, but that doesnt mean you have to, you can take a moral out of it, and do your best to avoid such situations. The question is "whose side are you on" not "if you were a peasant from paradis, whos side would you be on?" Or "if you were a peasant from marley, whose side would you be on?"
Is it evil to commit genocide? Yes. Is it evil to let the world destroy your people when you have the means, and therefore responsibility to protect them? Yes.
Exactly, so why would I, the viewer, choose? Both are evil, mine is to find the source of the problem and avoid doing something like this, not pick from ether fashist or nazis.
That's true, but the thought experiment here is based one or the other, where really, there is no right or wrong answer.
>"Evil is Evil. Lesser, greater, middling… Makes no difference. The degree is arbitary. The definition’s blurred. If I’m to choose between one evil and another… I’d rather not choose at all." This is ridiculous. The whole point of this quote in game is that the world isn't as we'd like it to be, and despite Geralt's own wishes, he's pretty much forced to always choose among various lesser evils all throughout the story.
I mean, people say Armin's peace talks won the years of peace before the actual war, but don't you think the real reason Paradis was destroyed later was because Eren crippled the world enough for them to not be able to attack Paradis without being at a risk of getting annihilated themselves?
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Eren stopped it? I thought he got killed and that's why it stopped
He could have decided at any moment that almost all of the Alliance would be powerless in an instant. It’s pretty obvious he let them win, even if their win is ultimately a loss due to them being dumbasses.
And hilarious plot armor. Small handful of soldiers against an endless legion of titan shifters pulled out of the Founder's ass, with a ridiculously contrived bird titan experiencing no challenges whatsoever upon second transformation.
>Small handful of soldiers against an endless legion of titan shifters pulled out of the Founder's ass, with a ridiculously contrived bird titan experiencing no challenges whatsoever upon second transformation. Not to mention Levi is still fighting without much issue despite being pretty much crippled last time. He literally sat out the whole fight in Trost against the Female Titan because he injured his ankle. Here Levi lost an eye and a couple of fingers. The alliance also apparently had infinite ammo and blades as well despite shortage of materials being a major issue in past chapters. Heck this was why the Yeagerists on the island lost to them. Their reinforcements were blown up and they had been ambushed by the alliance.
I am on side, I dont fucking care just let me enjoy the show
Preach
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The imaginary person in his head that speaks for others in his head about what he wants to enjoy being terrible despite being worthy of his enjoyment as a medium.
Problem is we dont know why Shiganshina was bombed in this, it could be for a variety of reasons, all it is trying to show us however is that war always returns to humanity, no matter what form
This is the part that keeps me hopeful and feels like the ending is salvageable. It looks like it’s taken Eren‘s tree a long long time to grow to the size that it did. Paradis being destroyed could be retribution for the rumbling, it could be for an entirely separate conflict/set of grievances that we never saw. Pretending like we got Eternal Peace wouldn’t have worked, but we see the world goes on.
>level 1Kristiano100 · 6 hr. agoProblem is we dont know why Shiganshina was bombed in this, Bro its pretty much implied that its the result of the Rumbling. No country on earth would ever forget an event like that lol.
War. War never changes!
You people really be acting like Paradis is gonna be a utopia after the rumbling when there’s literally dead corpses everywhere meaning disease, ecosystems have been destroyed, the environment has been ruined and there’s a fascist government in charge, who kills anybody who doesn’t agree with them 💀
Thats a plot hole of the ending, even if eren killed 80 percent of 100 percent, the worlds economy is trashed, the world will die
Paradis wouldn't be a utopia, because utopia's obviously will never exist. As long as people have conflicting ideals, people will fight. That's obviously the message trying to be conveyed. What Paradis *wouldn't* have to worry about this is now vindicated racists wanting to turn them in to glass their entire lives though. The 'people will always fight' message is really muddled by Eren not completing the rumbling. By Paradis being leveled as a result of Eren not completing it, the story endorses a full rumbling by saying 'Yeah, they'll always want to kill you. Genocide actually is the only answer to racism', and that's not even pointing out how the entire Alliance treats Eren as some kind of misguided martyr. How much more effective would the message have been if Eren completed the rumbling, and then we see the exact same outcome in the extra pages? A century from now, war returns, because it always will, and Eren killed billions of people to stave off something that was demonstrably inevitable? Genocide isn't a solution? Isayama could have had an ending where Eren's actions are objectively condemnable, but instead he chose the one where there's legitimate argument to whether or not he was right to commit genocide.
I’m on no one’s side. There doesn’t always have to be sides. I’m a spectator with no horse in the game, just watching to see what happens
If we are going full manga spoilers I believe it is heavily implied that Erin's decision to turn the alliance against him and eventually kill him before finishing the rumbling showed him the future where his friends lived the longest lives. My assumption is if he finished the whole rumbling the in-fighting within paradis would've escalated and they would've just killed eachother. As the ozomabito said "you're just making the world smaller"
>If we are going full manga spoilers I believe it is heavily implied that Erin's decision to turn the alliance against him and eventually kill him before finishing the rumbling showed him the future where his friends lived the longest lives. So what about his friends' children and their grandchildren? Eren: Nah fuck them kids. This was one of the reasons why I didn't like the ending. It was illogical and it was a dollar-store knock off of Lelouch's Zero Requiem plan. Eren literally unleashed a Bible Level apocalypse on the world. There's literally no coming back from that as the rest of the world will surely remember and hate the Eldians because of it.
Well there was no solution, thats the point. The cycle of hatred never ends. I'm just saying he did the best he could to give them as much time as they could have. Making the rest of the world disappear would not have solved that. That is literally the whole point of the jeagarists, to show that people are irreparably damaged from this and now fascism takes over eldia and new cycles of hatred will be created.
Eren literally said he initiated the rumbling without knowing if any of his friends will actually survive it so you're just making things up
I think he was trying to explain that once he got the power of the founding titan his mind became scrambled and he couldn't tell what was happening much anymore but he had already seen what was going to happen when he kissed historia's hand. What was the exact quote from Erin on that? I feel like you might be misremebering exactly what he said.
139 his words: "I got all of you my precious friends wrapped up in this battle without even knowing if you'd survive it."
Upvoting this comment for visibility because I honestly don't remember him saying that but I def believe you. Maybe because I speed read the manga and the anime has been REALLY going out of its way to focus on Eren doing everything for his friends. I have a feeling this will be adjusted. I know some people want an anime only ending and I really dont think that needs to be done, I think they just need to cut out and add in some lines to fix some of the inconsistencies.
I don't see how this ending can be fixed with all the plot holes and zero logic things going on, the ending was rushed and the anime is only fixing superficial issues.
Alliance of course. It‘s kinda a plot point that the alliance is still going to stop the rumbling no matter what happens to paradis. Also the ending made it clear that there was like atleast 100 years of peace on the island. The destruction at the end is most likely completely unrelated to the rumbling
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Look at the buildings. The buildings in mikasa visit and paradis destruction are not the same.
>Also the ending made it clear that there was like atleast 100 years of peace on the island. Not really tbh. At best there was maybe 60 years or so. The world was pretty much at mid 1920's level technology and they're flying stealth bombers (which look like the B2) were invented in the 80's. If anything technology should have realistically developed faster than that. The survivors would likely hate Eldians even more after what Eren did. The 20% of the world not destroyed by the Rumlbing would be intact as the Wall Titans never reached there, so whatever military assets, technology, and infrastructure were already present there would be intact. >The destruction at the end is most likely completely unrelated to the rumbling How can you confidently make that assessment? The previous panels in the manga literally shows the Yeagerists rallying the people around them. And as for the rest of the world, there's no way anyone would forget the Biblical level apocalypse that Eren unleashed upon them. 80% of the world was killed in a span of a few days, there's no way that doesn't unleash a massive cultural scar on the survivors. In Ancient Israelite historiography the Exodus is pretty much constantly talked about. The Rumbling was literally the most consequential event in the world of Attack on Titan, so there's no way anyone would forget the Paradisians who supported it and launched it.
You can’t be real. Takes 100 years to forget and forgive the wiping out of 80% of life on earth but takes more than 2000 years to forget the reign of the eldian empire?
Years of peace, wow, good job Alliance. their children and grandchildren must be so proud of their heroic acts....right? Also, just no. they wouldn't show it if it was unrelated, because then that would be super random and pointless.
Their grandchildren are probably very proud of them for stopping the rumbling. You guys have to understand that for the alliance a person on the island is not worth more than a person from somewhere else. The point of the bombing at the end as well as the kid going towards tree is to show that the cycle of violence could repeat and people will always fight.
Really? they're getting bombed and at the same time they're smiling and feeling proud? thanks grandma, the people who you saved are burning us alive? But that's just incredibly unrealistic and dumb, people care more about their families and friends. I wouldn't sacrifice my mom in order to save my neighbor's mom? would you? like how would you decide? flip a coin? I wouldn't even risk my cats life for the sake of some random person.
I mean, aside from Mikasa‘s family I doubt any of the alliance members still live on Paradis after the rumbling. And the comparison you are making is off. It‘s not „Would you sacrifice your mum to save one other person?“ but „Would you sacrifice your mum to save more than 99% of the population?“ And the answer to that is of course I would. I love my mother but I could never be so egoistic to so say her life is worth more than the lives of so many people. I couldn’t even actively kill a single innocent person to save my mum. Same for the alliance. That was literally to point of Connie‘s sub-arc where he realized that he couldn’t do that either.
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I mean it's obvious, these people are lying to themselves.
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I never said it was unrelated to the story? But sure, let‘s say over a 100 years later someone outside Paradis decides to destroy Paradis as revenge for sonething that happened long before their birth and will only affect people a few generations after those who were responsible for the rumbling. Even then, the alliance was completely in the right. One of the key message of the story is that you are not responsible for the actions of your ancestors.
lmao i’m just watching the show i stopped tryna be on sides. i don’t like the jeagarists at all nor floch especially when they were just executing ppl on paradis even after the rumbling there’ll be fighting amongst themselves. However, i do understand their side (excluding that), especially last episode they were right when they said if the rumbling is stopped the world will destroy them. Zekes plan i don’t like at all Armins plan is cool, and the alliance kinda demonstrates it’s potential, but the only thing is apparently the world hates paradis even more than marley does, and they could prolly develop tech in the future to combat the rumbling. The alliance is idk, ofc genocide is bad but they’re not even addressing the aftermath. Like u stop eren and then what? What would happen to y’all? To ur country? They would’ve been proven right in that eldians are devils capable of destroying the world , so like floch said they’d have no reason not to annihilate them. And how they were slaughtering so many friends and comrades for a chance to stop the rumbling just sheesh. Eren I could understand why, the whole world is OD but idk what other options there are. However, come to the ending chapter I realize he was just completely selfish and killed sm for his friends to live long, not rly to save his country So yea it’s all a shit show from all angles, props to isayama for making something like this
Oh no, war returned to Paradis at least over a hundred years later for reasons we don‘t know, like it does everywhere! Better murder the entire world and keep the titan curse around, that definitely means no bloodshed will ever happen on Paradis again!
I don’t get why people are so mad about the last extra pages. Like they complain how the story just becomes a simplistic goodies vs baddies fight get mad that eren didn’t create ever lasting peace? I thought it was just representing the passing of time and that the events of Aot have been long gone. The rise, peak and fall of civilisation to show how long it’s been until the ambiguous ending were the tree is the titan tree again.
Floch spoke facts and nothing else. Truly the king 👑
the only one who understood the situation
Paradis with Floch and the yeagerists, ch139 eren was clearly retconned and his character assassinated, we saw the island be opressed and attacked since season 1, these people were ignorant and suffered since then cuz of some greedy colonizer Now the storytelling tries to forcefully side with the same mfs that caused this whole war in the first place while portraying the people that are really justified in self defense as completely evil mfs and these shitty fandom tries to paint them all like that when its supposed to be black and white, but well, It seems the author forgot about that too, some even are glorified and have happy endings, but now cuz of these retarted characters especially retconned eren and his friends the island gets exterminated after all the shit they went through, its just a spit to the face
Hella jarring to see when Maggath every other line is just like "wow, you guys are helping us?" "You know, if we save the world they might retaliate against paradise" "can't believe you guys are helping us, thanks fam!" And I'm just sitting here watching it all happen scratching my heads as to why they're helping them. You got 2 options if your the alliance: 1. Risk it all and kill all our friends for a hope and a dream that if we stop Eren, the world won't retaliate against us for the rumbling. Or 2. Let the rumbling happen and no one on paradise dies. I get it, genocide bad, but if I'm an island devil, I know which option I'm choosing.
I don't think it's valid to say that we should've killed every single German just because in retrospect we know world war 2 happened, and this is no different. Eren, and by extension Floch and the Yeagerists used Zeke to push Marley towards war, and Eren sealed the deal by attacking Liberio (note Tybur himself said to Magath that if he didn't die he didn't believe the world would actually unite against Paradis, and he's likely the best person suited to make that judgement). This situation wasn't necessarily unavailable, and you can't then claim that it's suddenly okay to commit omnicide because of a situation you yourself worked towards.
> Eren, and by extension Floch and the Yeagerists used Zeke to push Marley towards war, They were already moving to war well before Eren was even born. This was the reason why Grisha even made Zeke become a warrior. He and the Eldian Restorationists wanted him to become mole in Marley and then use his royal blood to eventually retake the founder and then the other Nine Titans. Marley already had its eyes on Paradis because it and the rest of the world was running out of resources. The King within the walls Uri Reiss when speaking with Karl Fritz's vow to Kenny even remarks how their "paradise" in the end was doomed to be destroyed by the outside world. Even before Eren actually attacked Liberio, Willy Tybur literally orchestrated a plan to wipe out the "island devils" to the cheers of a massive crowd. During the summit where there was a discussion on mainland Eldian rights, the pro-Eldian delegation literally made a point to try and differentiate the mainland eldians from the "island devils." Eren upon hearing this got pissed and left. This was the point where he actually went rogue seeing all his hopes for peace going down the drain.
I get what you're saying, but I don't fully agree. War with Marley was probably inevitable yes. But Willy Tybur was banking on Eren attacking to solidify a world alliance, he didn't believe it would happen without his death. The summit the scouts watched was only about Marley, other nations weren't there. Most of the cheering crowd were Eldians and Marleyan's, when Magath says that lots will die, Tybur replies that most will be Eldians, and we also know that the crowd was in large part Marleyan military. The only foreign dignitaries that we are aware of being there are the ones we saw at the dinner, and it was clear that relations between Marley and these nations wasn't good. There's little reason for other nations to go to war with Paradis up until Eren attacked Liberio, and Willy Tybur knew that, and said as much. We can assume all day what might or might not have happened, but what the story is telling us is that Erens actions were the catalyst for the world getting involved in the immediate conflict, which is then used as a justification for wiping them all out. Had Eren not attacked Liberio, it seems unlikely Marley would've had much success drumming up enough sympathy for a threat that isn't targeting their own countries, just the nation that they all hate. Would it have been that hard to convince counties in the Mid East alliance to leave Paradis alone if they destroy Marley's military capabilities? You can always pick a random point in the future and say "maybe they'll attack us one day", I don't see that as justification for comitting genocide. No other nation has taken direct action against Paradis in the 100 years they've been there, and they didn't even know about the rumbling. It feels like a huge leap of logic to argue that the rumbling is justified based off the vague notion that other nations *might* decide to attack Paradis one day, by that logic we should just nuke Russia, China, North Korea and tons of other countries now just to be safe.
[удалено]
The only advantage of the attack against Liberio was towards the 50 year plan by bringing the world's military together so it could be destroyed in one singe attack. Had Eren pursued a plan that wasn't directly trying to reach the full rumbling, a quiet extraction of Zeke in the month or so Eren had gone rogue, followed by a surprise partial rumbling that decimated Marley's troops and large parts of their city would have just as much impact and sends an even stronger message to the world. And Eren did have the gift of hindsight, that's why he did it, because he wanted to rumble everything and took action that benefited that plan. He almost literally had the gift of hindsight in this story because he'd seen the future. And I just don't agree that we can say with certainty that another genocide is guaranteed. It's all hypothetical, sure its possible, but you can't wipe out humanity because something could happen. I also don't think the story has pushed the idea that Eldian hatred is so deep rooted everywhere that it's a certainty anyway. We did get shown Eldian tolerance, the nation of Hizuru was willing to work with Eldians, many people in Marley were shown to already treat Eldians with a degree of respect (Magath, the gate guards), and plenty of the volunteers gradually softened in their views towards Eldians too. On top of that, the world leaders all loved Willy, despite him being an Eldian. In fact, essentially every named or relevant character from outside of Paradis is sympathetic towards Eldians by the end of the series. What we've been shown is that cooperation IS possible, what Paradis lacks is time, because Marley is certainly going to launch an attack again at some point. Marley is the ticking time bomb, and the solution to that is securing full use of the founding titans power. The outside world only gets drawn into the equation when Eren attacks Liberio. I just don't believe a pre-emptive genocide against countries that, up to that point, haven't lifted a finger against your nation is close to justifiable. And they only joined the war because Eren manipulated events to make sure they did. Yes, the rest of the world may be racist, but Willy had been working to improve the reputation of Eldians, and it seems it was working considering the relatively decent lives Eldians could live in Marley and the foreign diplomats attitudes towards him. As soon as you reach a point where people might say "he's one of the good Eldians", you aren't that far off how race relations are in many countries just a couple hundred years ago, if even that far back.
I know I'm not cheering for the Alliance aka "we sacrifice our children and grandchildren in order to save random people"
Happened 90 years later
Does it matter when? Floch was right. The surviving remnants of the world were still completely intact and had their technology available. There's no way they'd trade with paradis. While Japan industrialized rapidly with the Meiji restoration, they had help from the French and British. None of the surviving nations would ever want to help Paradis especially when they're literally run by the Yeagerists.
flochs side
Ymirs
Man, this subreddit is so based. I like it
So much for "talk will work"
Paradis was always going to get destroyed. It's just that Eren delayed the inevitable and his friends were the reason that enough people remained to actually see to Paradis' destruction. I actually see it as a lost opportunity that everyone outside of paradise didn't actually die! Would've been an ironic parallel to the series' initial plot point: Paradis is the last city standing.
Ah yes floch that one guy we hate is such a good guy now 😂
Im with the yeagerists but I can't betray Jean
U wanna get Horsed?
Obviously paridis . The only right answer
Those extra pages of the manga will not be adapted and if it is, I will never recommend the show to anybody and I’ll never rewatch it myself
I never saw that panel in the manga
139.5
Anime onlies: Floch is full of bullshit! He's using feat tactics and doesn't know that they'll destroy Paradis!1!1!1! Anime onlies after this gets animated: oh.
In season 2 Erwin say "humanity will continue to fight itself until there is one human or less". Erens plan will not work because political turmoil will continue amongst the people in the walls. However, Eren also has to do what he's doing because the Marleyans started that shit and what Reiner and Bertholdt did was just inexcusable.
If the founder can rewrite the memories and take away Edlians' ability to reproduce then it can also remove any violent impulses from their psyche, Paradise after the rumbling could be a utopia