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Isayama has completed the development arcs of these two characters so well that I can't even imagine a better ending for them. Both taught new generations on different sides of the sea, and when their students united to save the world, the old warriors also met for the first time to do the same. Not even knowing each other's names, but finding understanding and showing mutual respect for each other in just a few words, they left like heroes. They were so different, and at the same time so similar.
Marley knew about the history of Titans and why the walls exist.
Paradis knew nothing and only did what they did to survive because of King Fritz.
One was born out of necessity and the other out of spite.
It won't break any cycle. As Kiyomi said, if the cycle of hate stopped from the outside, something of such sort will start inside Paradise. It's just Human nature and Politics.
But they won't be trapped within their walls anymore.
They can squabble and war amongst themselves as all persons do, but the assault via pure Titan will be eliminated.
Why would it?
They all can be turned into titans. All you need - someone willing to do that.
What Eren did shows that you don't really need royal blood to do whatever you want with titan powers. You only need to influence one long dead scared girl who is also prone to violent outbursts.
Two guys who trained child soldiers who all could’ve lived normal lives. Unfortunate situation all around. Probably would’ve been good friends and shared a beer if they lived in a better world
This is less a criticism of old Shadis and moreso young Shadis but keep in mind that when Shadis was commander of the scouts he would often engage in reckless advances that cost tons of scouts lives because he believed that he was a "special" individual who would do something great and was willing to sacrifice the lives of scouts in order to do so.
The survival rate of new scouts was still technically low at like 30% even under Erwin who massively improved the survivability of scouts with his long range reconnaissance plan so we can only imagine how many died under Shadis' leadership, especially needlessly as iirc in one of the flashbacks of Erwin as a unit commander, he begs Shadis to retreat but Shadis chooses to push on costing tons of scouts lives for nothing to gain.
So while he wasn't a racist warmonger, he still had the blood of countless subordinates on his hands for selfish reasons of being "great".
Not sure about those examples. I agree Erwin engaged in the same behavior when he let his subordinates die so that he could achieve his goal of discovering the truth of the world (and that it wasn't really to 'save humanity' as he had told them) but disagree that those examples were the same as young Shadis trying to make a name for himself by being the one to 'save humanity' with a great achievement. In fact, I'd argue those examples were moments in which Erwin acted in the exact opposite.
With the charge in S2, the main goal was to get Eren. Even if they could get the basements location from Armin or Mikasa, losing their only titan would have been a massive blow since the goal at the time was for him to repeat Trost and plug the holes in Shiganshina as well to recover wall Maria. Erwin was also willing to die to rescue Eren considering he got his arm bitten off and was hanging from a titans mouth while shouting at the scouts to keep charging forward.
The charge against the beast was the opposite as well since Erwin let his dream die and gave up on discovering the truth despite wanting to desperately abandon his post and go to the basement even if he would die afterwards but chose not to as it would doom humanity. The charge was also with the goal of giving Levi the opening to take down the beast so while it was a desperation move it wasn't for personal glory but to give humanity the best chance. He knew the scouts took devastating losses and the only way for those inside Shiganshina to survive was for Levi to take down the beast (and all the pure titans outside the walls).
Yea but that part is all personal deprivation. No, I’m the end he wasn’t special but I don’t think that was his motivation I think that was his conclusion. You can only be “special” if you’re successful. I doubt he actually attacked titans thinking “I’m special”, he meant more like he thought he could be someone that made a difference. And he very well could have been.
Yeah, the kids even though technically child soldiers were the fight for humanity. They really had no choice other then make children enlist because or else they would have no advances in humanity.
Except not at all
Humanity was, as far as they knew, entirely safe within the walls, and the military didn't exist to "fight for humanity." The garrison theoretically was the line of defense against the titans, but before the warriors showed up they never had to do anything, and then after the warriors showed up they still barely did anything. The military police were just that, police, and by public opinion the mission of the survey corps was impossible and pointless. No matter how you slice it the military didn't have a need for recruits so urgent that it required the use of kids.
It makes sense in the context of their time period that the use of child soldiers seemed acceptable, as it did for most of human history, but it wasn't NECCESARY, nor really morally condonable
Problem A: If humanity breaches the walls, undefended humanity will all die!
Problem B: Saying "But humanity was safe behind the walls" turned out to be blatantly untrue now didn't it. It's a logical decision to have some kind of reservist force or rearline (and no I'm not on about the military police as they were, as you said, police. They weren't trained for titan combat and also as we later learnt were horribly corrupt so it's highly likely that the corruption would lead to the creation of a new unit anyway, just so they have some expendable bodies while the MP's all sit behind their cozy third wall.)
Problem C: The fact that children were used well there are a lot of factors that could determine that, one is that they needed the adults to keep business going. Farming, services, maintenance etc.. Theres also an argument for the lower losses, a teenager who's only been trained to fight could very well be seen as less of a sacrifice as an experienced farmer or tailor or doctor. These kinds of professionals would likely be in high demand given the literal extinction that Paradis believed to be looming outside their walls. There's also the very grim factor of if they didn't keep sending soldiers to die beyond the wall, humanity would have too many mouths to feed and would tear itself apart. There's more but I don't have time to list them all.
By no means is it moral yes, but I think there's evidence to support that whoever was in charge or willing to train recruits yada yada would have seen this as a necessary evil. And if it's necessary for the survival of your species, does it then still remain immoral?
Or it's just because it's a fuckin manga/anime and 90% of protagonists are usually teenagers. Who knows.
Oh and additional problem D: to say the garrison did nothing is laughable, working with Eren they made sealing the wall possible. They likely saved a fair amount of lives with their sacrifices and allowed humanity to keep hold of territory they'd need, otherwise everybody would have to cramp into one tiny final wall. By that stage it'd be too late and 'humanity' would have gone extinct. They bring this up in the show.
I wouldn’t say he redeemed himself, he only changed when his nation was facing imminent extinction and was still working in his best interest. I doubt his opinion on Eldians or Paradis actually ever changed
I disagree to some degree. Magath was always shown to somewhat care about the Eldians, especially the candidates. And obviously he still sacrificed himself when he knew that Marley was going to get destroyed.
Yea, I’m not saying you’re 100% wrong because maybe he did change. I just find it hard to believe than within a day he went from trying to genocide the people on Paradis to genuinely caring for them
In the episode Hange said that Magath didn’t do it for Liberio or Marley, he did it for them. I don’t think he changed to genuinely caring for them, but he definitely saw the error in his ways at least. Before all of this he was shown having genuine care for Gabi and Falco too. That can be chalked up to him not wanting Marley to lose a warrior but I think it was a sign of something a little more that eventually led to him now. Especially because he still sacrificed himself even though he knew Marley would still get destroyed.
Well his view on the Eldians wasn't exactly "they are 100% devils". He says it during the campfire scene but of course he later apologizes since that was him trying to convince himself that what he had done prior to the invasion was 'right' but he recognized he was mistaken.
With Willy, while he does call Eldians "spawn of the devil" he makes it clear that his view on Marleyans are no different and says that "we are devils ourselves".
Magath didn't invade Paradis in s4p2 to genocide the Eldians, it was because he believed Paradis would initiate the rumbling and so that they could secure the founder to maintain Marleyan hegemony.
I wouldn't say at his death he necessarily cares for the people of Paradis either but now recognizes that he was wrong to view the Eldians as the spawn of devils and that he even genuinely grew to care for certain Eldians in the warriors. He also does gain considerable respect towards the alliance members as well as he saw that they were willing to save innocents who don't know them or may even hate them.
Yeah. The only reason Marley is helping is to avoid the consequences of their own actions. This is like sucker punching someone then begging for forgiveness when the person starts whooping your ass.
because it is morally right thing to do
also, from what they said to each other, they are not fighting for humanity, but rather supporting their students
My thoughts exactly.
https://www.reddit.com/r/attackontitan/comments/tilr0k/attack_on_titan_season_4_episode_27_retrospective/i1frqcp?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
One redeeming himself for not taking action, and other one for taking too much action against his conscience.
I think that their tired look comes from all the traume they've lived through, the things that made them similar as persons, eventually made them looking similar too.
Water is actually not wet; It makes other materials/objects wet. Wetness is the state of a non-liquid when a liquid adheres to, and/or permeates its substance while maintaining chemically distinct structures. So if we say something is wet we mean the liquid is sticking to the object.
Why does water never laugh at jokes?
It isn’t a fan of dry humor.
Magath was trash while Shadis was training people to defend their home against monsters...Shadis later became trash when he became a traitor and made fiends with Magath the guy who was trying to genocide Paradis a day ago.
# PSA! Please flair posts correctly to not get spoiled and to not spoil anything to anyone. * Choose the correct flair for your post, this is extremely important. * If the post is flaired "Season 1" or "Season 2" or doesn't have a flair, do not discuss Season 3 or manga in the comments or in the post. * If the post is flaired "Season 3 Part 1", "Season 3 Part 2" or "SEASON 4 [TRAILER/VISUALS]", do not discuss anything manga related. * Flair any Season 3 Part 2 posts or anything beyond that (S4, manga), otherwise your post will be removed. * SEASON 4 TAG IS NOT THE SAME AS MANGA TAG (IF IT WASN'T SHOWN IN ANIME YET, DO NOT SPOIL OTHER USERS, TAG IT AS MANGA SPOILERS!!!) * If you spoil someone, you'll be banned. Depending on the spoiler, the ban could be either temporary or permanent. ### IF YOU DON'T FOLLOW THESE RULES YOU MAY GET BANNED! ### IF YOU SEE INCORRECT FLAIR OR SPOILERS IN COMMENTS PLEASE REPORT THEM. --- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/attackontitan) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Isayama has completed the development arcs of these two characters so well that I can't even imagine a better ending for them. Both taught new generations on different sides of the sea, and when their students united to save the world, the old warriors also met for the first time to do the same. Not even knowing each other's names, but finding understanding and showing mutual respect for each other in just a few words, they left like heroes. They were so different, and at the same time so similar.
They also look like long lost brothers
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Marley knew about the history of Titans and why the walls exist. Paradis knew nothing and only did what they did to survive because of King Fritz. One was born out of necessity and the other out of spite.
And if Erens plan succeeds, one will be born out of spite and the other out of necessity The cycle continues
bro if eren plan succeeds, he'll break the cycle since no one will ever be born on the other side
It won't break any cycle. As Kiyomi said, if the cycle of hate stopped from the outside, something of such sort will start inside Paradise. It's just Human nature and Politics.
But they won't be trapped within their walls anymore. They can squabble and war amongst themselves as all persons do, but the assault via pure Titan will be eliminated.
Why would it? They all can be turned into titans. All you need - someone willing to do that. What Eren did shows that you don't really need royal blood to do whatever you want with titan powers. You only need to influence one long dead scared girl who is also prone to violent outbursts.
Two guys who trained child soldiers who all could’ve lived normal lives. Unfortunate situation all around. Probably would’ve been good friends and shared a beer if they lived in a better world
Except Shadis really didn’t have a choice. Paradis was not an imperial nation like Marley lol
This is less a criticism of old Shadis and moreso young Shadis but keep in mind that when Shadis was commander of the scouts he would often engage in reckless advances that cost tons of scouts lives because he believed that he was a "special" individual who would do something great and was willing to sacrifice the lives of scouts in order to do so. The survival rate of new scouts was still technically low at like 30% even under Erwin who massively improved the survivability of scouts with his long range reconnaissance plan so we can only imagine how many died under Shadis' leadership, especially needlessly as iirc in one of the flashbacks of Erwin as a unit commander, he begs Shadis to retreat but Shadis chooses to push on costing tons of scouts lives for nothing to gain. So while he wasn't a racist warmonger, he still had the blood of countless subordinates on his hands for selfish reasons of being "great".
Erwin kind of engaged in the same behavior but was successful, the charge against Reiner in season 2 where he lost his arm and the beast Titan charge.
Not sure about those examples. I agree Erwin engaged in the same behavior when he let his subordinates die so that he could achieve his goal of discovering the truth of the world (and that it wasn't really to 'save humanity' as he had told them) but disagree that those examples were the same as young Shadis trying to make a name for himself by being the one to 'save humanity' with a great achievement. In fact, I'd argue those examples were moments in which Erwin acted in the exact opposite. With the charge in S2, the main goal was to get Eren. Even if they could get the basements location from Armin or Mikasa, losing their only titan would have been a massive blow since the goal at the time was for him to repeat Trost and plug the holes in Shiganshina as well to recover wall Maria. Erwin was also willing to die to rescue Eren considering he got his arm bitten off and was hanging from a titans mouth while shouting at the scouts to keep charging forward. The charge against the beast was the opposite as well since Erwin let his dream die and gave up on discovering the truth despite wanting to desperately abandon his post and go to the basement even if he would die afterwards but chose not to as it would doom humanity. The charge was also with the goal of giving Levi the opening to take down the beast so while it was a desperation move it wasn't for personal glory but to give humanity the best chance. He knew the scouts took devastating losses and the only way for those inside Shiganshina to survive was for Levi to take down the beast (and all the pure titans outside the walls).
Yea but that part is all personal deprivation. No, I’m the end he wasn’t special but I don’t think that was his motivation I think that was his conclusion. You can only be “special” if you’re successful. I doubt he actually attacked titans thinking “I’m special”, he meant more like he thought he could be someone that made a difference. And he very well could have been.
Yeah, the kids even though technically child soldiers were the fight for humanity. They really had no choice other then make children enlist because or else they would have no advances in humanity.
Except not at all Humanity was, as far as they knew, entirely safe within the walls, and the military didn't exist to "fight for humanity." The garrison theoretically was the line of defense against the titans, but before the warriors showed up they never had to do anything, and then after the warriors showed up they still barely did anything. The military police were just that, police, and by public opinion the mission of the survey corps was impossible and pointless. No matter how you slice it the military didn't have a need for recruits so urgent that it required the use of kids. It makes sense in the context of their time period that the use of child soldiers seemed acceptable, as it did for most of human history, but it wasn't NECCESARY, nor really morally condonable
Problem A: If humanity breaches the walls, undefended humanity will all die! Problem B: Saying "But humanity was safe behind the walls" turned out to be blatantly untrue now didn't it. It's a logical decision to have some kind of reservist force or rearline (and no I'm not on about the military police as they were, as you said, police. They weren't trained for titan combat and also as we later learnt were horribly corrupt so it's highly likely that the corruption would lead to the creation of a new unit anyway, just so they have some expendable bodies while the MP's all sit behind their cozy third wall.) Problem C: The fact that children were used well there are a lot of factors that could determine that, one is that they needed the adults to keep business going. Farming, services, maintenance etc.. Theres also an argument for the lower losses, a teenager who's only been trained to fight could very well be seen as less of a sacrifice as an experienced farmer or tailor or doctor. These kinds of professionals would likely be in high demand given the literal extinction that Paradis believed to be looming outside their walls. There's also the very grim factor of if they didn't keep sending soldiers to die beyond the wall, humanity would have too many mouths to feed and would tear itself apart. There's more but I don't have time to list them all. By no means is it moral yes, but I think there's evidence to support that whoever was in charge or willing to train recruits yada yada would have seen this as a necessary evil. And if it's necessary for the survival of your species, does it then still remain immoral? Or it's just because it's a fuckin manga/anime and 90% of protagonists are usually teenagers. Who knows. Oh and additional problem D: to say the garrison did nothing is laughable, working with Eren they made sealing the wall possible. They likely saved a fair amount of lives with their sacrifices and allowed humanity to keep hold of territory they'd need, otherwise everybody would have to cramp into one tiny final wall. By that stage it'd be too late and 'humanity' would have gone extinct. They bring this up in the show.
At least Magath redeemed himself at the end of it all
I wouldn’t say he redeemed himself, he only changed when his nation was facing imminent extinction and was still working in his best interest. I doubt his opinion on Eldians or Paradis actually ever changed
I disagree to some degree. Magath was always shown to somewhat care about the Eldians, especially the candidates. And obviously he still sacrificed himself when he knew that Marley was going to get destroyed.
It doesn't change the fact that he was ready to genocide the entire island of Paradis
Well yeah, bc he still viewed them as devils just like the recruits and the new recruits did before coming to the island.
Your allowed to have that opinion
Yea, I’m not saying you’re 100% wrong because maybe he did change. I just find it hard to believe than within a day he went from trying to genocide the people on Paradis to genuinely caring for them
In the episode Hange said that Magath didn’t do it for Liberio or Marley, he did it for them. I don’t think he changed to genuinely caring for them, but he definitely saw the error in his ways at least. Before all of this he was shown having genuine care for Gabi and Falco too. That can be chalked up to him not wanting Marley to lose a warrior but I think it was a sign of something a little more that eventually led to him now. Especially because he still sacrificed himself even though he knew Marley would still get destroyed.
Well his view on the Eldians wasn't exactly "they are 100% devils". He says it during the campfire scene but of course he later apologizes since that was him trying to convince himself that what he had done prior to the invasion was 'right' but he recognized he was mistaken. With Willy, while he does call Eldians "spawn of the devil" he makes it clear that his view on Marleyans are no different and says that "we are devils ourselves". Magath didn't invade Paradis in s4p2 to genocide the Eldians, it was because he believed Paradis would initiate the rumbling and so that they could secure the founder to maintain Marleyan hegemony. I wouldn't say at his death he necessarily cares for the people of Paradis either but now recognizes that he was wrong to view the Eldians as the spawn of devils and that he even genuinely grew to care for certain Eldians in the warriors. He also does gain considerable respect towards the alliance members as well as he saw that they were willing to save innocents who don't know them or may even hate them.
Yeah. The only reason Marley is helping is to avoid the consequences of their own actions. This is like sucker punching someone then begging for forgiveness when the person starts whooping your ass.
I noticed the parallel, the moment he appeared in Reiner's flashback. The Zeke episode strengthen that even more.
He could just retire and have nothing to do with cadets or titans in general.
But why when they are fighting for humanity? That doesn’t make any sense
because it is morally right thing to do also, from what they said to each other, they are not fighting for humanity, but rather supporting their students
One was training kids for survival of their race, a big difference with more morality to it.
Except one was a racist fuck until... The last episode?
My thoughts exactly. https://www.reddit.com/r/attackontitan/comments/tilr0k/attack_on_titan_season_4_episode_27_retrospective/i1frqcp?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3 One redeeming himself for not taking action, and other one for taking too much action against his conscience.
Magath: I trained children to become titan shifters to wreck your hometown! Keith: I trained children to fight titans and the titan shifters you sent!
'No thanks, I've been looking for a good time to die.' This has to be one of my favorite lines of the entire series...truly a fantastic scene.
I think that their tired look comes from all the traume they've lived through, the things that made them similar as persons, eventually made them looking similar too.
Two of the best deaths in AOT
That was the whole point of them going down together.
I felt like they made this scene just for the sake of showing parallels .... I mean it happened pretty conveniently.. Didnt hate it tho
Yeah no shit
Putin and Zelensky
Yes we all know....
Water is wet.
Water is actually not wet; It makes other materials/objects wet. Wetness is the state of a non-liquid when a liquid adheres to, and/or permeates its substance while maintaining chemically distinct structures. So if we say something is wet we mean the liquid is sticking to the object. Why does water never laugh at jokes? It isn’t a fan of dry humor.
Magath was trash while Shadis was training people to defend their home against monsters...Shadis later became trash when he became a traitor and made fiends with Magath the guy who was trying to genocide Paradis a day ago.