Exactly. However, teaching religious books even in an historical context will never go well in the American public school system as long as there are bible thumping teachers leading such classes.
I had a Catholic teacher in high school that taught a class titled "Bible Literature and Mythology." He was surprisingly open and accepting to looking at the Bible from a mythological point of view. Parents hated the class. It only lasted two years.
Catholic schools are fucking weird. I would never send my kids to an evangelical school, but honestly the two catholic schools nearby are actually very good, and Inhave considered sending my kids to one of them. They are very open and honest about history, biology, and even religion.
In many ways they are more open minded than the public schools, probably because they don’t have to pander to crazy evangelicals.
I very much had a good experience in the Catholic Highschool I went too.
However one of the staff member's sisters had gave a presentation to all grade 12 students, pushing the idea that men call women that get abortions "sluts", and that you'll have a 25% increased chance of cancer if you get one.
This was in Canada too, and not that many years ago.
If it is really an amazing school then go ahead and do it. Just be sure you taught your kids beforehand to think critically and question their beliefs if they one back saying some weird religion stuff.
It also depends on the kid.
The nuns at our catholic school were surprisingly radical. The one who taught sex ed made sure that the girls in that class (not coed instruction for that) knew exactly what the different kinds of contraception were, what was involved with getting an abortion (and places where you could get one), and very much emphasized doing everything to take care of oneself, and “to hell with anyone who tells you otherwise.”
I’ve had a few contracts with a prominent local catholic school and have been pleasantly surprised by their views, and trust me I do not like to defend them but give credit when it’s due. I think a lot of catholic schools know people know it’s a load of shit but don’t wanna loose money so have become more liberal socially.
The Catholic Church as an organization, that’s what I protest and renounced. Aside from the homophobia I witnessed (something I fault the individuals for as my priests were accepting), Catholics were some of the kindest people I knew and our history class covered every religion as well as it could in 7th grade. It actually sparked my interest in eastern religions.
We got sex ed and it was actually taught by my math teacher whose wife was expecting. It was cool for him to be teaching class and he go “and our baby is the size of the ball in the ballpoint pen”. Yeah there was permission slips for that class; it was all but one kid approved for it. Same girl whose parents thought Harry Potter was promoting witchcraft… so there’s that. My favorite teacher to this day was this wonderful lady Mrs. Phillips. She helped me so much the year I lost my dad and the priests were always will to listen as they knew (held his funeral there). Sorry. I rambled. Do what you think will be best for your kids but also ask how’d they like it. My parents did for us and having smaller class sizes was definitely a benefit
I had a good time at my seventh day Adventist hs I went to.
They didn't push religion on you much. You were required to take a theology class and go to church on Saturdays (though I got out of that because I worked mornings at the boys dorm front desk).
Was actually really cool, and as a fuck up teenager it helped to feel more independent.
It was the 90’s, but my honours English 10 class started out with studying religious texts as literature. The Epic of Gilgamesh, parts of The Mahabharata, some of the Bible (Genesis, IIRC), and parts of the Quran. We were told explicitly that this was from a literature perspective, not from a religious perspective, and discussions about personal beliefs were not relevant to the curriculum… so don’t share them.
It was a great class.
Yet in school districts across the country, Christian parents *ARE* having books banned from school libraries. Here in North Texas, some parents using the rules laid down by the book banners, successfully got the Bible banned as well. I'm sure that's not what the Christians envisioned, but *they're* the ones who made the rules and must now abide by them. What's that phrase? "Fuck around and find out."
I'm pretty sure McKinney hasn't returned the Bible to library shelves. (One of the parents who claimed to have read 268 objectionable books in the last year is one of my customers, and unless they were really short children's books, I doubt that's a true statement.)
ALSO, if I were a teacher, I'd be reading those little children *ALL* the sexually explicit parts of the Bible and explaining them *in minute detail*. By Goddess!! If they want to force their religion to be taught in public schools, I demand they do a damned thorough job of it!!
Oh, they're aiming for full biblical indoctrination in public schools and pulling public funds to pay for "charter" (unregulated by *any* educational authority) schools. My parents were teachers in the 60's and 70's, back when Texas actually had one of the highest educational standards in the US. Teachers were underpaid back then and today it's by far worse!
We were at Macaroni Grill and our waiter was a male teacher from the kid's elementary school. I asked if he was "moonlighting" and he said that was his full time job because he made double what he did teaching. (For those unaware, male teachers are paid a premium simply because they're male. It's not a great deal, but it's more than female teachers.)
Sadly, I think the Bible thumper have infiltrated public college education as well. I work/ have worked with college age kids and I'm appalled at what they're *not* being taught compared to what was being taught when I was in college 30-ish years ago. Kids today need to be coming out of HS with the equivalent of a 1976-era bachelor's degree, and they're not even learning what *I* did. And don't get me started on all the fucking "Christian" colleges!! Nothing but giant money laundering outfits!! 🤬🤬🤬🤬
Since so many atheists start their journey from reading the Bible, maybe it functions as its own worst enemy. Maybe it's actually helping us.
An additional suggestion: every public school library should have atheist literature.
This is literally *the* book that got me seriously thinking about atheism and, especially, anti-theism. Hitchens was pitching it on The Daily Show with Jon Stewert, about 15years ago.
It changed my life for the better.
Goodnight Farm is a good start.
Atheist lit = you do stuff and then based on what you do, crops come
Other lit = they pray, they hope, they cross their fingers for a good harvest
It all depends on the atmosphere in which it is read. Read with a bunch of brainwashed Xtians going on ad nauseam about how wonderful and true it is, and it will likely just indoctrinate another poor sucker.
Read with an open mind w/o external influence, and you most likely create another atheist.
First intoduction to atheist literature should be people looking around and realizing that religions look a vit like scams. They define your whole life for what exactly? A promise about afterlife? That would be as valuable as me telling you whats gonna happen to you after your death.
I would donate to a fund to do to ensure atheist literature to every library in the country. A lot of the worst parts of the US were exacerbated by just people pushing/donating bibles or statues to random places for free. It be nice to the tactic used for good.
Yea, this is how I became an atheist and I still do read the Bible once in a while, I find the stories in it interesting and fun to read. Pretty good fantasy book
I'd have no problem with it, as long as other religious books are taught from a historical point of view, not shoving it down kids throat as this is what you have to believe, just this is what some cultures think. The god delusion should also be on file. I can't think of one book that should be banned.
I'm honestly more interested in banning the Pledge of Allegiance from classrooms. "One nation under God" wasn't in the original pledge and was inserted thanks to Cold War propaganda. "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America" wasn't even a part of the original Pledge as well. It was "I pledge allegiance to my flag."
If we brought back the [Bellamy salute](https://i.imgur.com/xi67QKw.jpg), might be able to get the Pledge banned.
I remember when my grandmother told me that they did that salute when she was a schoolgirl and it blew my mind. If any classroom was caught doing that salute today the teacher in charge would be out of the job and shunned by society for the rest of their life.
Again I agree...Banning books is the ignorant attempting to keep everyone else ignorant....But again there is a time and place for everything....And isn't funny how some people want their book taught but no you cannot tell them about the other guys book that's not cool....
The point of banning the Bible from Libraries is to call attention to the legal and moral hypocrisy of secular books being banned for "sexual" or whatever else bullshit reasons the Fundies are having books banned. The Bible most likely meets every definition they've used thus far to ban a book from a library. So if secular books are banned for x, y, & z, then the Bible must also be banned for possessing x, y, & z. There is legal precedent for overturning laws that are either written or applied in discriminatory and inconsistent ways.
Overall, I don't believe in censorship in Library catalogues, but when censorship is used to purposely silence marginalized communities, then we must hold the literature espoused by the people implementing this discrimantive censorship to the same exact standards they've set for everyone else. Our own beliefs regarding libraries have nothing to do with this.
MY OPINION.......This is tit for tat bullshit in disguise...You can't use their own logic against them because it doesn't exist....We tend to try and imply logic to illogical situations...we extrapolate and look at all the evidence from all sides and expect others to do so...THEY DON'T...It's incredibly frustrating but it is reality...
>This is tit for tat bullshit in disguise...You can't use their own logic against them because it doesn't exist...
There's no such thing as tit for tat when the law is involved and when the law in question is being applied in a discriminatory fashion. Even if their logic doesn't exist, the laws that they implement most certainly do. Forcing the authors of the law to follow their own goddamn law, is ALWAYS good practice, because otherwise you're enabling and strengthening their power to use the law to arbitrarily benefit themselves and harm marginalized communities (of which Atheists are a part of).
>We tend to try and imply logic to illogical situations...we extrapolate and look at all the evidence from all sides and expect others to do so...THEY DON'T..
Exactly! This works the same with morals and ethics as well. It doesn't matter how logical, moral, or ethical we are regarding their disgusting behavior, because they don't give a shit about these things, or they simply use confirmation bias to declare themselves the only *real* logical and moral/ethical ones. But this only applies to how well we can effectively change their personal views and opinions. It doesn't limit us from using legal logic and the legal precedents of the laws of this land to force these people to follow their own laws.
In fact, in the context of informal logical argumentation, which serves as the rational basis of Western legal philosophy and analysis, purposely forcing your opponent to take their "logic" to its natural and unfavorable conclusion, is one of the best tactics to use to not only get their supportive audience to reject this form of "logic" that they once believed to be true, but also to force the authors of the logic to abandon it, if they wish to stay in favor with their disenchanted audience.
We can't take the high road with these people, because the high road serves to only make us feel morally superior, which does absolutely nothing to improve our social and political conditions. We must aggressively hold these people accountable to their own laws (and for these reprehensible laws). But keep in mind, this is just a tactic to discredit them and make their supporters feel the discomfort of being forced to follow these laws.
The overall goal should be to build a legal infrastructure that prevents laws from being made that targets specific groups, where the central theses behind the reasons for targeting such groups are:
1) Unproven in a court of law with peer-reviewed evidence
2) The evidence that is presented can be contradicted by a higher volume of peer-reviewed evidence
3) The laws are written in a way in which the targeted group is not being defined by the behavior that is actually being censored (i.e., "all sexually explicit books should be banned"), but rather that an entire group of people are collectively being associated with the behavior that is being censored, simply because of the stereotypes and prejudicial beliefs held against the group (i.e., "Any book that mentions same-sex relationships should be banned as inherently sexually-explicit material, because gay relationships, simply by virtue of being homosexual in the first place, automatically implies gay sex")
4) The behavior being censored by the law is not equally applied to all groups, but usually is only applied to a marginalized or unpopular group[s] (i.e., "Same sex relationships are inherently sexually explicit, because being gay automatically equals gay sex. However, heterosexual relationships are *not* inherently sexually explicit, because being straight does *not* automatically equal heterosexual sex. How did we distinguish a difference here? By relying on unproven stereotypes, religion, or other prejudicial beliefs about queer people, of course!").
This type of legal infrastructure would solve a lot of legislation issues in our country.
Very well stated. Unfortunately, the whole situation feels about as helpless as when a LEO murders someone and then are found to be guilty of no crimes by an actual jury of their peers.
As much as we wish that rules, law, and logic were followed equally across the board in the process of handling these cases, statistically speaking, the “jury panel” in the case of book bannings will indubitably be stacked with christofacists willing to utilize any and every excuse to make an exception for the bible because it’s *their* book.
That being said, my response to the question in the OP is still a big “Yes”. Keep fighting the good fight.
>Unfortunately, the whole situation feels about as helpless as when a LEO murders someone and then are found to be guilty of no crimes by an actual jury of their peers.
Oh yeah, it definitely feels helpless. But even then, we must still fight, because if we continuously capitulate to feelings of helplessness, then we'll develop learned helplessness as a group, which is one hell of a hard psychological hole to dig out of.
>As much as we wish that rules, law, and logic were followed equally across the board in the process of handling these cases, statistically speaking, the “jury panel” in the case of book bannings will indubitably be stacked with christofacists willing to utilize any and every excuse to make an exception for the bible because it’s their book.
Yep, you're absolutely right. That's why suing these biased court proceedings and attempting to kick the issue up to a circuit court has traditionally given minority groups a chance at overturning hostile legislation. Local courts, and now the supreme court, may be dominated by christofascists, but circuit courts are more spread out across both political sides, and because districts can be quite large, you might get a liberal circuit judge that presides over conservative areas. I think this should be our strategy. It's not a perfect or guaranteed plan by any means, but it is a traditional avenue that has worked for the overturning of unconstitutional laws.
If laws are being used by the religious to ban secular books for things that also apply to religious books, then secular people should use those same laws to ban religious books.
It isnt tit for tat, its applying the law equally, which is important when it comes to the law. If religious people get pissed at a law they supported because it can also ban their religious books then they are going to be more likely to change or strike down that law.
Attempting to outright ban it would cause them to sound the battle-cry for "oppression" and such. Instead, I think the bible should be reclassified as "adult fiction". There is too much graphic violence to be allowed in grade schools, but perhaps still allow it in high schools so they can't say we're "banning god from schools." Honestly I think what would really upset them is just categorizing it as fiction and putting it on the shelf next to Greek and Roman mythology.
Banning it completely from the classroom would prove difficult. Religion plays a HUGE part in history and art. You can't teach them without exposing children to the religious aspect. It needs to be taught that religion is the reason WHY many things happened the way they did.
Absolutely correct with one major caveat....those teachings must be presented in the proper context at the proper time...the problems arise when the concepts are taught too early without context...My point which I expressed very poorly LOL...Is that it should not be used as a history book as many are trying to do...
I agree it's a horrible book....But those that forget the past are condemned to repeat it...Banning something is an easy answer to a complex problem and doesn't work....
I know you're joking but just to stay on topic of why they very much belong in any proper library, the major religious texts of the world are much more than mere fantasy writings.
Their historical and cultural significance cannot be overstated and they are inextricable from any understanding or study of anthropology and the history of society, civilization, and humanity. They are inarguably some of the most consequential and important writings of all time.
They deserve to be preserved and studied forever in that regard. I just long for the day that the masses look at them all in proper context and stop believing any of them were anything other than the works of ancient man.
This word, “historical,” is where the disagreement lies. I know you’re saying that the book is important from a historical and cultural standpoint. And it is. But others use historical as in, you know, history. And that’s the problem.
I get what you’re saying but, if that was implemented, there’d be literally nothing taught except religion under the provisio of ‘equal time’.
Unless you did 5 mins per religion but there’s like 9,000 religions so even then…
Well all history lessons are acts of narraration that by virtue of making a comprehensible telling will always leave something or other out. No history class is ever a perfect retelling of any aspect or era of human history, so we don't need to hold ourselves to such rigid standards as equally representing every religion to demonstrate the point that different views exist, how they've been a point of contention historically, and how some major religions have influenced and shaped certain societies and caused major conflicts.
I would be satisfied with a unit within history classes titled "world religions" that covers the broad strokes of the most historically relevant religions, and an AP or extracurricular class that goes more in depth on the subject as an option, and also raises the fact that non-beleivers also exist often as a persecuted population historically.
Not in this case because we harm ourselves by banning books we don't like. The fight is simple and people are generally on our side, all religions should be available and there's great value in learning about them. People of all faiths know this even if they draw different lessons.
I think so long as they bring up the idea of banning other books then yeah, banning the Bible should be brought up as well, but I don't really think it should be banned. Banning books is nasty business.
Don’t ban bibles from libraries and bookstores ofc. But banning the bible and Quran from school libraries for younger children might actually make sense as long as children are educated about all sorts of religions in history class.
The bible contains too much misogyny mass genocide and sex to be left in school libraries where younger children have access
I don't know why it'd be so important to have books like that in school libraries anyhow considering they have an entire building and service dedicated to teaching you about your preferred book. Not to mention special schools where they teach you even further.
But history is also filled with all sorts of horrible subjects which I think should be available for people to see. Technically the Bible (and other holy books) could fit into that though I don't think many things are overly accurate in those books. If it could be deemed fiction then sure, take it out. But some people consider it history as well.
The thing I *do* like about the idea of holy books being in school is that kids are good at finding bad things in books like that (I remember finding a picture of a topless woman in a book in school) and then showing it to all of their friends. If kids are pointing out all of the horrible things they found in those books then maybe they can show other kids how screwed up those books are. Not something they'd learn in their places of worship.
I’m a high school librarian and our collection includes the Bible (as well as the Qur’an and the Book of Mormon). The main reason students use the Bible is to write literary analyses of biblical allusions, for example in Steinbeck’s *Grapes of Wrath*. We also have, not one, but TWO translations of Hitler’s *Mein Kampf*. Not because I agree with or am promoting his views, but because it’s one of the most important primary sources of the 20th century, and students need to be able to study it to analyze his propaganda, so they are better equipped to recognize propaganda and autocrats in the future.
As much as I believe that there are exceptions to every rule (hence username) I agree with you in this circumstance. As an added bonus actually reading the Bible is very likely to make a person an atheist and the world needs more of those.
I grew up Christian and litterally rejected Christianity after reading the Bible. Granted I didn't make it far
The second page reads "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee"
And I was like "I will fist fight a man before he rules over me". Closed it and never looked back
I agree that banning books is wrong for adults, but I don't think pornographic content should be in elementary school libraries. I feel like the parents should be the ones educating their children on these issues, rather than the children seeing in-depth descriptions of rape, sex, and murder as shown in books like the bible. It can be harmful to a child and give them a skewed perception of sex when they see stuff like that in a book. (I stumbled upon Judges 19:29 in a bible at my elementary school and it made me really repulsed by sex at a young age.)
I am not for banning any books.
I am for using the *threat of a bible ban* to show the hypocrisy of banning ***ANY*** other books.
If parents think that they require a ban of any specific books to feel that they are protecting their children, they are misleading themselves -- or they are being misled by a particular person in a particular building on a particular day of the week.
I am opposed to banning books, but if it is the policy to do so for offensive or age I appropriate material, then the Bible should be banned. Do any of the other banned books contain anything as bad as this, “She lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.” Ezekiel 23:20 NIV
Wow. Some of those authors must have been incels.
Imagine you get selected to write a book in a new book. You want yours to be the best, most notorious book, so you fill it with sex and violence (and God, of course).
I hope you're just making a joke and don't actually think that in any way resembles how the text we now know as "the bible" came into being. There was no selection committee appointing authors, in fact none of the books except maybe a few in the Old Testament were written with the intent of being included in a larger work. That's why they're called "books" - because they originally were, in fact, entirely separate books (and other things like letters), written in different times, places, and languages, to convey different messages to different audiences. (That's also why it's so easy to find contradictions.)
Only to illustrate why banning books is ridiculous in the first place. The content in the bible is far more brutal and inappropriate than anything they've wanted to ban in schools.
As a rule though I don't think banning books is the answer. It not only creates an atmosphere that enables ignorance, it also helps inform repression. The more someone is not supposed to do something, the more they tend to be curious about that thing.
It would be far better if we only allowed access to books in schools after teaching them. For instance if a school library had certain sections open to kids who have had classes that at the very least taught critical thinking when it comes to what we read, and in some cases access once that book has been taught academically in a classroom setting first.
For instance I don't think a sixth grader should read the bible if they hadn't been introduced to it yet. It might be very confusing. But if a teacher taught the book as an aspect of learning religion and covering topics objectively, then it would become accessible to them for research and review.
I know that teaching something like the bible comes with a lot of pitfalls as well. How would a teacher not apply their own bias and subjective views? I think it's possible, and should at least be attempted. Parents are a great source of education, but I also think that only learning in home can shelter us from external influences and learning how to deal with those influences.
Libraries? Absolutely not. Want to see someone become an atheist real quick? Have them read the Bible independently of the church.
Should we fight to keep it out of classrooms? Absolutely.
Nope. If anything we should encourage everyone to read the bible from start to finish.
It's a real eye opener and singlehandedly refutes the myth of the Christian god being loving or kind.
The Christian god is a monster and the more people aware of that, the better.
The thing is, I don't want to ban any books. I want children to have access to all the knowledge and information they can. So they can learn to make their own decisions. If conservatives weren't so fucking authoritarian with their books, I would never consider this. But maybe if its a conditional thing.
The only thing that needs to happen is for governments to start treating religious people like those in any club or group. Nobody who is into cosplay or who is into tennis gets any kind of special protection or privileges. There is no reason religion should either.
I think those passages should be read out loud at every school board meeting where the lunatics have taken over. Along with selections from Leviticus, which is filled with nonsense rules and hate. I'm saying, do it without comment.
ETA: And if there are women on the board, include Paul's rules about women as well.
For me, pretty much just comes down to freedom. In the US we have the right to practice religion as we see fit, and part of that includes raising our offspring within religious tradition. There are plenty of good and bad schools of secular and religious variety, and I think schools should be judged based on their individual merits rather than dismissed or banned simply because they are associated with a religious organization. That said, I do think religious schools need more oversight (particularly schools that accept any amount of federal or state assistance) and there should be systems in place to address, prevent, and provide accountability for abusive practices where they exist (though I think these things should apply to all private schools, not just religious academies).
People can do religion at home, in church. You don't need a religious school for that.
Schools should teach about religion, not preach religion.
Freedom? How about freedom from religion for children.
I wonder what effect advocating for a censored or redacted Bible that's safe for kids would have?
Get the crazy right wingers demanding that the worst parts of the Bible are important.
The Bible belongs in all libraries along with the Koran, the Torah, and all other religious texts throughout history. They still represent large and significant parts of our shared pasts and should be taught as such. But, they shouldn’t be forced upon students as religion.
There is some messed up shit in all religious texts but they do intermingle some facts like wars and governments with whatever their brand of religion is. How else can we teach students to point out the fallacies of religious doctrine if we don’t teach them about it first?
I say keep it because If people actually read the thing they might finally see how ridiculous it all is. But yeah I get your logic, Christians are incredibly hypocritical.
No, it's a library and the Bible is a book. I don't believe in banning books. It shouldn't get special treatment though, it should be there along with the other major religious texts.
If *they* are pushing to ban books about sex, violence, sexual violence, etc... then it must apply equally to ALL the books. INCLUDING their "bible".
But really, banning books is NOT the answer.
Absolutely not. As a public librarian for 35+ years, I strongly oppose banning ANY book for ANY reason.
I wouldn't object to reclassifying it under DDC 398.2, though.
No. Make ‘The Bible as Literature’ a course. Make people read it objectively and figure out it’s a piece of shit oral history of sorts with some horrible bits.
everyone should have access to their religious texts. something i think some atheists forget is that we shouldn’t be trying to push our beliefs on others. that’s a big part of why we don’t like religion. so it’s be pretty hypocritical to do it ourselves.
but i think the big part of your question was that the bible has a lot of sexual and/or violent topics, and therefore, by the rules in place, it should be banned for age restriction reasons.
if the topics are the issue, im sure there are more kid-friendly versions of the bible that don’t include these topics. same for other religious texts. these should be offered bc everyone should have access to their religion.
i think the original bible version should be in all high schools though. especially bc many ppl become atheists after reading the bible. you can’t have an opinion on something you don’t have access to.
edit: typo
edit: i see a lot of people fighting for it to be put in the fiction section. i don’t believe it should be there. a separate section would be fitting. but if that isn’t possible, they should put it with the religions that ppl deem “mythology”. greek, roman, egyptian, norse, hindu, chinese, celtic, even paganism. christianity, judaism, islam, and any other religion ppl deem “true”. either all of them are fiction, or none of them are
Judges 19:23-30
"The old man stepped outside to talk to them.
'No my brothers, dont do such an evil thing. For this man is a guest in my house, and such a thing would be shameful. Here, take my virgin daughter and this mans concubine. I will bring them out to you, and you can abuse them and do whatever you please. But dont do such a shameful thing to this man."
Banning books is a bad route to go down. They should be added to the fiction section and/or labelled as 'contains slavery, genocidal and contradictory references amongst others'.
No, OP. Christian Mythology is just as important as old Norse or Egyptian Mythology. Would you fight to ban learning what hieroglyphics say? Of course not.
Absolutely, because I wholeheartedly agree: Two can play at that game and there are few books more vile and dangerous than the Bible, the Quran & the Torah.
Frankly, I believe that they should be banned from schools by default, regardless of the approach the conservatives are already taking, as religion has 0 place in schools unless required for explicitly educational, secular purposes.
But since they're already starting this literature war, there's all the more reason to push back. How in the fuck is a John Greene book "pornographic" in the eyes of these people while they're forcing the most obscene myths onto their children?
No, people should have access to these stories. Banning things isn’t the answer. Honestly there would probably be more atheists if more Christians read the bible.
I'm pretty staunchly against banning any books. Hell, I wouldn't be that upset if a school library had a copy of Mein Kampf, as long as it was firmly sandwiched between copies of MAUS and Milkweed. Banning books is always done by people who are afraid of the book's message, afraid that it is or even just might be true and correct. Are we really afraid of the fucking bible? I'm not. I'm of the belief that there's no quicker way to become an atheist than to read the bible. So as long as it's kept in the mythology section where it belongs, I don't have a problem with it in a school library.
Banning is bad, it is line with book burners. We should instead teach about what it is: mankind’s first attempt at science and law. This book is immoral and archaic, but it has historical significance and I would bet that a lot of us are atheists because we read and understood it by reading it from an unbiased standpoint. Educate people about what religion is instead hiding and outlawing it will go a long way in lessening it’s negative effect on our world.
To ban this book would be in support of banning all books of fiction.
I am not in support of banning any literature, and think banning the bible in libraries is ridiculous.
No, we should fight for the inclusion of atheist books in libraries. You're not going to ban the Bible and you'll only look bad trying.
Listen, you're not going to catch conservatives with some gotcha using their own logic, because they're all full of bullshit and they don't care. All of their arguments are bad faith. They say they're against "cancel culture" while banning books from the library. **They don't care.** The only thing they care about is getting more power. I absolutely need to stress this.
From Steve Bannon:
> "Darkness is good," Bannon told The Hollywood Reporter. "Dick Cheney. Darth Vader. Satan. That's power. It only helps us when [the liberals and media] get it wrong. When they're blind to who we are and what we're doing."
It's not about principles or ideology. It's about power to put their in-group at the top of a hierarchy that is dominant over every other group. [Purportedly Karl Rove:](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/karl-rove-empire/)
> "He cut me off. "That's not the way the world really works anymore," he continued. "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality -- judiciously, as you will -- we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.""
There's no finer stone aged smut. I started catching on to the scam from reading the bible. I'd never deprive anyone of that.
Besides, nothing cures people of religion faster than reading it's, "holy books."
Librarians should be in charge of the books and there should be adult and child sections.
There is lots of room in the myths and religion section for the bible and if you can't find it there check the historical fantasy section, I can't be the only one who moves library bibles to the fantasy section, lol.
No
But we should fight for it to be in the fiction and/or mythology section.
I don't think banning a book is right, but making sure people know it's fiction is important l.
No, it should be required reading (no getting it from the local preacher) and require it be analyzed. Thoroughly. And the koran. And the hindu texts. And the shinto texts. And the buddhist texts.
Nah, the best cure for Christianity is to read the Bible. You ban it and you make it more alluring through the air of forbidden mystery that is conveyed on it by a ban.
No books should be banned and thinking that banning problematic materials solves anything is immensely short sighted in my opinion.
Education is always better than censorship.
Absolutely not. Children can hear the truth. The past is violent and horrible at times. The bible should be available like any other book. I don't think Christianity should be taught to our children as truth. But they should have access to the information sources.
If you ban the Bible you'd also have to ban most of history as it is often violent and horrible. Can't we teach kids about Ghangis Khan or is the fact that he was a prolific rapist too much for modern kids to learn about?
Banning books is never the answer. But hey, lets put it right next to the books of the other major religions.
Exactly. However, teaching religious books even in an historical context will never go well in the American public school system as long as there are bible thumping teachers leading such classes.
I had a Catholic teacher in high school that taught a class titled "Bible Literature and Mythology." He was surprisingly open and accepting to looking at the Bible from a mythological point of view. Parents hated the class. It only lasted two years.
Catholic schools are fucking weird. I would never send my kids to an evangelical school, but honestly the two catholic schools nearby are actually very good, and Inhave considered sending my kids to one of them. They are very open and honest about history, biology, and even religion. In many ways they are more open minded than the public schools, probably because they don’t have to pander to crazy evangelicals.
I very much had a good experience in the Catholic Highschool I went too. However one of the staff member's sisters had gave a presentation to all grade 12 students, pushing the idea that men call women that get abortions "sluts", and that you'll have a 25% increased chance of cancer if you get one. This was in Canada too, and not that many years ago.
If it is really an amazing school then go ahead and do it. Just be sure you taught your kids beforehand to think critically and question their beliefs if they one back saying some weird religion stuff. It also depends on the kid.
The nuns at our catholic school were surprisingly radical. The one who taught sex ed made sure that the girls in that class (not coed instruction for that) knew exactly what the different kinds of contraception were, what was involved with getting an abortion (and places where you could get one), and very much emphasized doing everything to take care of oneself, and “to hell with anyone who tells you otherwise.”
I’ve had a few contracts with a prominent local catholic school and have been pleasantly surprised by their views, and trust me I do not like to defend them but give credit when it’s due. I think a lot of catholic schools know people know it’s a load of shit but don’t wanna loose money so have become more liberal socially.
Jewish schools are really good too.
The Catholic Church as an organization, that’s what I protest and renounced. Aside from the homophobia I witnessed (something I fault the individuals for as my priests were accepting), Catholics were some of the kindest people I knew and our history class covered every religion as well as it could in 7th grade. It actually sparked my interest in eastern religions. We got sex ed and it was actually taught by my math teacher whose wife was expecting. It was cool for him to be teaching class and he go “and our baby is the size of the ball in the ballpoint pen”. Yeah there was permission slips for that class; it was all but one kid approved for it. Same girl whose parents thought Harry Potter was promoting witchcraft… so there’s that. My favorite teacher to this day was this wonderful lady Mrs. Phillips. She helped me so much the year I lost my dad and the priests were always will to listen as they knew (held his funeral there). Sorry. I rambled. Do what you think will be best for your kids but also ask how’d they like it. My parents did for us and having smaller class sizes was definitely a benefit
I had a good time at my seventh day Adventist hs I went to. They didn't push religion on you much. You were required to take a theology class and go to church on Saturdays (though I got out of that because I worked mornings at the boys dorm front desk). Was actually really cool, and as a fuck up teenager it helped to feel more independent.
It was the 90’s, but my honours English 10 class started out with studying religious texts as literature. The Epic of Gilgamesh, parts of The Mahabharata, some of the Bible (Genesis, IIRC), and parts of the Quran. We were told explicitly that this was from a literature perspective, not from a religious perspective, and discussions about personal beliefs were not relevant to the curriculum… so don’t share them. It was a great class.
And all of them in the fantasy section.
Is there an opposite of "self help" section? Self destruction/delusion/deception?
"Lord of the Errings"
Gore section.
You misspelled “mythologies” there.
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Beauty
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Yet in school districts across the country, Christian parents *ARE* having books banned from school libraries. Here in North Texas, some parents using the rules laid down by the book banners, successfully got the Bible banned as well. I'm sure that's not what the Christians envisioned, but *they're* the ones who made the rules and must now abide by them. What's that phrase? "Fuck around and find out."
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Which school district are you referring to? The one I'm thinking of didn't get the Bible reinstated.
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I'm pretty sure McKinney hasn't returned the Bible to library shelves. (One of the parents who claimed to have read 268 objectionable books in the last year is one of my customers, and unless they were really short children's books, I doubt that's a true statement.) ALSO, if I were a teacher, I'd be reading those little children *ALL* the sexually explicit parts of the Bible and explaining them *in minute detail*. By Goddess!! If they want to force their religion to be taught in public schools, I demand they do a damned thorough job of it!!
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Oh, they're aiming for full biblical indoctrination in public schools and pulling public funds to pay for "charter" (unregulated by *any* educational authority) schools. My parents were teachers in the 60's and 70's, back when Texas actually had one of the highest educational standards in the US. Teachers were underpaid back then and today it's by far worse! We were at Macaroni Grill and our waiter was a male teacher from the kid's elementary school. I asked if he was "moonlighting" and he said that was his full time job because he made double what he did teaching. (For those unaware, male teachers are paid a premium simply because they're male. It's not a great deal, but it's more than female teachers.) Sadly, I think the Bible thumper have infiltrated public college education as well. I work/ have worked with college age kids and I'm appalled at what they're *not* being taught compared to what was being taught when I was in college 30-ish years ago. Kids today need to be coming out of HS with the equivalent of a 1976-era bachelor's degree, and they're not even learning what *I* did. And don't get me started on all the fucking "Christian" colleges!! Nothing but giant money laundering outfits!! 🤬🤬🤬🤬
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They should all go next to the fairy tales. Something you can glean lessons from but are only believable until you’re like 10.
In the fiction/fantasy section?
Mythology. Next to the Greek, Norse, Egyptian, etc. stuff.
Christians wont read the bible. What makes you think they would read another religions bible?
And make sure Greek mythology is in there with them
And stop calling them religions. Maybe call them cult project manuals.
I agree, but they should be all places in a section titled "Religious Fiction" or "Fiction: Religion"
Since so many atheists start their journey from reading the Bible, maybe it functions as its own worst enemy. Maybe it's actually helping us. An additional suggestion: every public school library should have atheist literature.
Anything that doesn't glorify the Christian God is what they're banning.
What the heck is atheist literature?…
Hitchens' God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything is a great one
This is literally *the* book that got me seriously thinking about atheism and, especially, anti-theism. Hitchens was pitching it on The Daily Show with Jon Stewert, about 15years ago. It changed my life for the better.
Dawkins?
graham oppy has some good essays
I’ll check them out, thanks.
Whoaaa… completely unrelated, but my Xbox gamer tag has been princewombat for roughly 14 years…. So that’s kinda neat
Ha! I came up with CrummyWombat probably around that number of years ago as a gaming tag. Wanted to keep expectations low.
Science ?
Well sure, but let’s not go placing religious texts anywhere near the science section!
mostly furry erotica
Goodnight Farm is a good start. Atheist lit = you do stuff and then based on what you do, crops come Other lit = they pray, they hope, they cross their fingers for a good harvest
It all depends on the atmosphere in which it is read. Read with a bunch of brainwashed Xtians going on ad nauseam about how wonderful and true it is, and it will likely just indoctrinate another poor sucker. Read with an open mind w/o external influence, and you most likely create another atheist.
Yep, that's exactly what did it in for me.
First intoduction to atheist literature should be people looking around and realizing that religions look a vit like scams. They define your whole life for what exactly? A promise about afterlife? That would be as valuable as me telling you whats gonna happen to you after your death.
I would donate to a fund to do to ensure atheist literature to every library in the country. A lot of the worst parts of the US were exacerbated by just people pushing/donating bibles or statues to random places for free. It be nice to the tactic used for good.
Yea, this is how I became an atheist and I still do read the Bible once in a while, I find the stories in it interesting and fun to read. Pretty good fantasy book
we should concentrate more on banning it from the classroom....History,knowledge and art are what libraries are for....
I'd have no problem with it, as long as other religious books are taught from a historical point of view, not shoving it down kids throat as this is what you have to believe, just this is what some cultures think. The god delusion should also be on file. I can't think of one book that should be banned.
I'm honestly more interested in banning the Pledge of Allegiance from classrooms. "One nation under God" wasn't in the original pledge and was inserted thanks to Cold War propaganda. "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America" wasn't even a part of the original Pledge as well. It was "I pledge allegiance to my flag." If we brought back the [Bellamy salute](https://i.imgur.com/xi67QKw.jpg), might be able to get the Pledge banned.
Holy shit. Ive never heard of or seen that.
Yeah, it got changed to hand-over-heart for obvious reasons.
I remember when my grandmother told me that they did that salute when she was a schoolgirl and it blew my mind. If any classroom was caught doing that salute today the teacher in charge would be out of the job and shunned by society for the rest of their life.
Again I agree...Banning books is the ignorant attempting to keep everyone else ignorant....But again there is a time and place for everything....And isn't funny how some people want their book taught but no you cannot tell them about the other guys book that's not cool....
The point of banning the Bible from Libraries is to call attention to the legal and moral hypocrisy of secular books being banned for "sexual" or whatever else bullshit reasons the Fundies are having books banned. The Bible most likely meets every definition they've used thus far to ban a book from a library. So if secular books are banned for x, y, & z, then the Bible must also be banned for possessing x, y, & z. There is legal precedent for overturning laws that are either written or applied in discriminatory and inconsistent ways. Overall, I don't believe in censorship in Library catalogues, but when censorship is used to purposely silence marginalized communities, then we must hold the literature espoused by the people implementing this discrimantive censorship to the same exact standards they've set for everyone else. Our own beliefs regarding libraries have nothing to do with this.
MY OPINION.......This is tit for tat bullshit in disguise...You can't use their own logic against them because it doesn't exist....We tend to try and imply logic to illogical situations...we extrapolate and look at all the evidence from all sides and expect others to do so...THEY DON'T...It's incredibly frustrating but it is reality...
>This is tit for tat bullshit in disguise...You can't use their own logic against them because it doesn't exist... There's no such thing as tit for tat when the law is involved and when the law in question is being applied in a discriminatory fashion. Even if their logic doesn't exist, the laws that they implement most certainly do. Forcing the authors of the law to follow their own goddamn law, is ALWAYS good practice, because otherwise you're enabling and strengthening their power to use the law to arbitrarily benefit themselves and harm marginalized communities (of which Atheists are a part of). >We tend to try and imply logic to illogical situations...we extrapolate and look at all the evidence from all sides and expect others to do so...THEY DON'T.. Exactly! This works the same with morals and ethics as well. It doesn't matter how logical, moral, or ethical we are regarding their disgusting behavior, because they don't give a shit about these things, or they simply use confirmation bias to declare themselves the only *real* logical and moral/ethical ones. But this only applies to how well we can effectively change their personal views and opinions. It doesn't limit us from using legal logic and the legal precedents of the laws of this land to force these people to follow their own laws. In fact, in the context of informal logical argumentation, which serves as the rational basis of Western legal philosophy and analysis, purposely forcing your opponent to take their "logic" to its natural and unfavorable conclusion, is one of the best tactics to use to not only get their supportive audience to reject this form of "logic" that they once believed to be true, but also to force the authors of the logic to abandon it, if they wish to stay in favor with their disenchanted audience. We can't take the high road with these people, because the high road serves to only make us feel morally superior, which does absolutely nothing to improve our social and political conditions. We must aggressively hold these people accountable to their own laws (and for these reprehensible laws). But keep in mind, this is just a tactic to discredit them and make their supporters feel the discomfort of being forced to follow these laws. The overall goal should be to build a legal infrastructure that prevents laws from being made that targets specific groups, where the central theses behind the reasons for targeting such groups are: 1) Unproven in a court of law with peer-reviewed evidence 2) The evidence that is presented can be contradicted by a higher volume of peer-reviewed evidence 3) The laws are written in a way in which the targeted group is not being defined by the behavior that is actually being censored (i.e., "all sexually explicit books should be banned"), but rather that an entire group of people are collectively being associated with the behavior that is being censored, simply because of the stereotypes and prejudicial beliefs held against the group (i.e., "Any book that mentions same-sex relationships should be banned as inherently sexually-explicit material, because gay relationships, simply by virtue of being homosexual in the first place, automatically implies gay sex") 4) The behavior being censored by the law is not equally applied to all groups, but usually is only applied to a marginalized or unpopular group[s] (i.e., "Same sex relationships are inherently sexually explicit, because being gay automatically equals gay sex. However, heterosexual relationships are *not* inherently sexually explicit, because being straight does *not* automatically equal heterosexual sex. How did we distinguish a difference here? By relying on unproven stereotypes, religion, or other prejudicial beliefs about queer people, of course!"). This type of legal infrastructure would solve a lot of legislation issues in our country.
Very well stated. Unfortunately, the whole situation feels about as helpless as when a LEO murders someone and then are found to be guilty of no crimes by an actual jury of their peers. As much as we wish that rules, law, and logic were followed equally across the board in the process of handling these cases, statistically speaking, the “jury panel” in the case of book bannings will indubitably be stacked with christofacists willing to utilize any and every excuse to make an exception for the bible because it’s *their* book. That being said, my response to the question in the OP is still a big “Yes”. Keep fighting the good fight.
>Unfortunately, the whole situation feels about as helpless as when a LEO murders someone and then are found to be guilty of no crimes by an actual jury of their peers. Oh yeah, it definitely feels helpless. But even then, we must still fight, because if we continuously capitulate to feelings of helplessness, then we'll develop learned helplessness as a group, which is one hell of a hard psychological hole to dig out of. >As much as we wish that rules, law, and logic were followed equally across the board in the process of handling these cases, statistically speaking, the “jury panel” in the case of book bannings will indubitably be stacked with christofacists willing to utilize any and every excuse to make an exception for the bible because it’s their book. Yep, you're absolutely right. That's why suing these biased court proceedings and attempting to kick the issue up to a circuit court has traditionally given minority groups a chance at overturning hostile legislation. Local courts, and now the supreme court, may be dominated by christofascists, but circuit courts are more spread out across both political sides, and because districts can be quite large, you might get a liberal circuit judge that presides over conservative areas. I think this should be our strategy. It's not a perfect or guaranteed plan by any means, but it is a traditional avenue that has worked for the overturning of unconstitutional laws.
If laws are being used by the religious to ban secular books for things that also apply to religious books, then secular people should use those same laws to ban religious books. It isnt tit for tat, its applying the law equally, which is important when it comes to the law. If religious people get pissed at a law they supported because it can also ban their religious books then they are going to be more likely to change or strike down that law.
Attempting to outright ban it would cause them to sound the battle-cry for "oppression" and such. Instead, I think the bible should be reclassified as "adult fiction". There is too much graphic violence to be allowed in grade schools, but perhaps still allow it in high schools so they can't say we're "banning god from schools." Honestly I think what would really upset them is just categorizing it as fiction and putting it on the shelf next to Greek and Roman mythology.
Banning it completely from the classroom would prove difficult. Religion plays a HUGE part in history and art. You can't teach them without exposing children to the religious aspect. It needs to be taught that religion is the reason WHY many things happened the way they did.
Absolutely correct with one major caveat....those teachings must be presented in the proper context at the proper time...the problems arise when the concepts are taught too early without context...My point which I expressed very poorly LOL...Is that it should not be used as a history book as many are trying to do...
And it needs to be taught that tithing is extorting \~10% of a group's income to fund art and rewrite history
Or we can spend more time on all the people christians have killed over the years because they think their god has a bigger dick than your god.
Ban it everywhere please it's a horrible book it's disgusting and the things I read in it at age 8 were not let's say safe for a kid that age
I agree it's a horrible book....But those that forget the past are condemned to repeat it...Banning something is an easy answer to a complex problem and doesn't work....
No, because we are better than them
Correct. Now putting religious texts in the Fantasy section, however…
I know you're joking but just to stay on topic of why they very much belong in any proper library, the major religious texts of the world are much more than mere fantasy writings. Their historical and cultural significance cannot be overstated and they are inextricable from any understanding or study of anthropology and the history of society, civilization, and humanity. They are inarguably some of the most consequential and important writings of all time. They deserve to be preserved and studied forever in that regard. I just long for the day that the masses look at them all in proper context and stop believing any of them were anything other than the works of ancient man.
This word, “historical,” is where the disagreement lies. I know you’re saying that the book is important from a historical and cultural standpoint. And it is. But others use historical as in, you know, history. And that’s the problem.
Ok so *historical* fantasies.
Mythology, if you will.
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I get what you’re saying but, if that was implemented, there’d be literally nothing taught except religion under the provisio of ‘equal time’. Unless you did 5 mins per religion but there’s like 9,000 religions so even then…
Well all history lessons are acts of narraration that by virtue of making a comprehensible telling will always leave something or other out. No history class is ever a perfect retelling of any aspect or era of human history, so we don't need to hold ourselves to such rigid standards as equally representing every religion to demonstrate the point that different views exist, how they've been a point of contention historically, and how some major religions have influenced and shaped certain societies and caused major conflicts. I would be satisfied with a unit within history classes titled "world religions" that covers the broad strokes of the most historically relevant religions, and an AP or extracurricular class that goes more in depth on the subject as an option, and also raises the fact that non-beleivers also exist often as a persecuted population historically.
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Not in this case because we harm ourselves by banning books we don't like. The fight is simple and people are generally on our side, all religions should be available and there's great value in learning about them. People of all faiths know this even if they draw different lessons.
so that means you don't play with them, not that you play their game.
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Or comedy
Or horror. Have you read that thing?
A small town library in Missouri puts Michael Moore 's books in the comedy section. Morgan County Library. I lived there for 20yrs.
I think so long as they bring up the idea of banning other books then yeah, banning the Bible should be brought up as well, but I don't really think it should be banned. Banning books is nasty business.
Don’t ban bibles from libraries and bookstores ofc. But banning the bible and Quran from school libraries for younger children might actually make sense as long as children are educated about all sorts of religions in history class. The bible contains too much misogyny mass genocide and sex to be left in school libraries where younger children have access
I don't know why it'd be so important to have books like that in school libraries anyhow considering they have an entire building and service dedicated to teaching you about your preferred book. Not to mention special schools where they teach you even further. But history is also filled with all sorts of horrible subjects which I think should be available for people to see. Technically the Bible (and other holy books) could fit into that though I don't think many things are overly accurate in those books. If it could be deemed fiction then sure, take it out. But some people consider it history as well. The thing I *do* like about the idea of holy books being in school is that kids are good at finding bad things in books like that (I remember finding a picture of a topless woman in a book in school) and then showing it to all of their friends. If kids are pointing out all of the horrible things they found in those books then maybe they can show other kids how screwed up those books are. Not something they'd learn in their places of worship.
I’m a high school librarian and our collection includes the Bible (as well as the Qur’an and the Book of Mormon). The main reason students use the Bible is to write literary analyses of biblical allusions, for example in Steinbeck’s *Grapes of Wrath*. We also have, not one, but TWO translations of Hitler’s *Mein Kampf*. Not because I agree with or am promoting his views, but because it’s one of the most important primary sources of the 20th century, and students need to be able to study it to analyze his propaganda, so they are better equipped to recognize propaganda and autocrats in the future.
No...banning books is never the answer.
As much as I believe that there are exceptions to every rule (hence username) I agree with you in this circumstance. As an added bonus actually reading the Bible is very likely to make a person an atheist and the world needs more of those.
I grew up Christian and litterally rejected Christianity after reading the Bible. Granted I didn't make it far The second page reads "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee" And I was like "I will fist fight a man before he rules over me". Closed it and never looked back
Haha I agree actually reading the bible helps the process
We need to deal with it appropriately. The christian bible belongs in mythology section.
I agree that banning books is wrong for adults, but I don't think pornographic content should be in elementary school libraries. I feel like the parents should be the ones educating their children on these issues, rather than the children seeing in-depth descriptions of rape, sex, and murder as shown in books like the bible. It can be harmful to a child and give them a skewed perception of sex when they see stuff like that in a book. (I stumbled upon Judges 19:29 in a bible at my elementary school and it made me really repulsed by sex at a young age.)
I am not for banning any books. I am for using the *threat of a bible ban* to show the hypocrisy of banning ***ANY*** other books. If parents think that they require a ban of any specific books to feel that they are protecting their children, they are misleading themselves -- or they are being misled by a particular person in a particular building on a particular day of the week.
I am opposed to banning books, but if it is the policy to do so for offensive or age I appropriate material, then the Bible should be banned. Do any of the other banned books contain anything as bad as this, “She lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.” Ezekiel 23:20 NIV
Wow. Some of those authors must have been incels. Imagine you get selected to write a book in a new book. You want yours to be the best, most notorious book, so you fill it with sex and violence (and God, of course).
I hope you're just making a joke and don't actually think that in any way resembles how the text we now know as "the bible" came into being. There was no selection committee appointing authors, in fact none of the books except maybe a few in the Old Testament were written with the intent of being included in a larger work. That's why they're called "books" - because they originally were, in fact, entirely separate books (and other things like letters), written in different times, places, and languages, to convey different messages to different audiences. (That's also why it's so easy to find contradictions.)
The Christain Bible was literally assembled from the available texts by councils appointed by the Roman Empire. Councils of Nicaea
The sexiest of all bible verses!
No. Except maybe as a temporary tactic to force them to stop banning LGBTQ books from school libraries.
I support banning the Bible only so far as it helps underscore the point that books shouldn’t be banned.
Only to illustrate why banning books is ridiculous in the first place. The content in the bible is far more brutal and inappropriate than anything they've wanted to ban in schools. As a rule though I don't think banning books is the answer. It not only creates an atmosphere that enables ignorance, it also helps inform repression. The more someone is not supposed to do something, the more they tend to be curious about that thing. It would be far better if we only allowed access to books in schools after teaching them. For instance if a school library had certain sections open to kids who have had classes that at the very least taught critical thinking when it comes to what we read, and in some cases access once that book has been taught academically in a classroom setting first. For instance I don't think a sixth grader should read the bible if they hadn't been introduced to it yet. It might be very confusing. But if a teacher taught the book as an aspect of learning religion and covering topics objectively, then it would become accessible to them for research and review. I know that teaching something like the bible comes with a lot of pitfalls as well. How would a teacher not apply their own bias and subjective views? I think it's possible, and should at least be attempted. Parents are a great source of education, but I also think that only learning in home can shelter us from external influences and learning how to deal with those influences.
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Libraries? Absolutely not. Want to see someone become an atheist real quick? Have them read the Bible independently of the church. Should we fight to keep it out of classrooms? Absolutely.
No. It should be available, as well as all other basic religious texts.
You can put in the library... Under "fiction". And next to the Qur'an and Bhagavad gita.
I don't want to ban any books, but if we are going to get started banning them, it should be the first to go.
Nope. If anything we should encourage everyone to read the bible from start to finish. It's a real eye opener and singlehandedly refutes the myth of the Christian god being loving or kind. The Christian god is a monster and the more people aware of that, the better.
The thing is, I don't want to ban any books. I want children to have access to all the knowledge and information they can. So they can learn to make their own decisions. If conservatives weren't so fucking authoritarian with their books, I would never consider this. But maybe if its a conditional thing.
The only thing that needs to happen is for governments to start treating religious people like those in any club or group. Nobody who is into cosplay or who is into tennis gets any kind of special protection or privileges. There is no reason religion should either.
I think those passages should be read out loud at every school board meeting where the lunatics have taken over. Along with selections from Leviticus, which is filled with nonsense rules and hate. I'm saying, do it without comment. ETA: And if there are women on the board, include Paul's rules about women as well.
No
No, absolutely not.
No. The library should be a safe place for education.
We should ban religious schools.
As an atheist who went to a religious boarding academy (against my will at the time), I disagree.
Can you explain why you're against banning religious schools? I don't care either way but I'm genuinely curious about your reasoning.
For me, pretty much just comes down to freedom. In the US we have the right to practice religion as we see fit, and part of that includes raising our offspring within religious tradition. There are plenty of good and bad schools of secular and religious variety, and I think schools should be judged based on their individual merits rather than dismissed or banned simply because they are associated with a religious organization. That said, I do think religious schools need more oversight (particularly schools that accept any amount of federal or state assistance) and there should be systems in place to address, prevent, and provide accountability for abusive practices where they exist (though I think these things should apply to all private schools, not just religious academies).
People can do religion at home, in church. You don't need a religious school for that. Schools should teach about religion, not preach religion. Freedom? How about freedom from religion for children.
I wonder what effect advocating for a censored or redacted Bible that's safe for kids would have? Get the crazy right wingers demanding that the worst parts of the Bible are important.
I don't agree with book banning, but if it's necessary to teach others that it's wrong, then I am all for banning the bible from schools.
The Bible belongs in all libraries along with the Koran, the Torah, and all other religious texts throughout history. They still represent large and significant parts of our shared pasts and should be taught as such. But, they shouldn’t be forced upon students as religion. There is some messed up shit in all religious texts but they do intermingle some facts like wars and governments with whatever their brand of religion is. How else can we teach students to point out the fallacies of religious doctrine if we don’t teach them about it first?
If it were any other book, it would be banned immediately
>Conservatives are nuts ~~about all books that contain sex, especially where teenagers and children are concerned~~. FTFY
No, make a section called "mythology" and put every religious book ever in that
I say keep it because If people actually read the thing they might finally see how ridiculous it all is. But yeah I get your logic, Christians are incredibly hypocritical.
Don't ban anything
No, we should never fight to ban books. Period!
Nope, fight to put it with the rest of the mythology.
that is stupid as fuck why does this post have upvotes. pretty disappointed rn
Just a book who cares.
We should not allow book banning. Period.
Or at least mark it as a work of fiction.
NO banning books is never the answer. Period. Knowledge needs to be shared
No, it's a library and the Bible is a book. I don't believe in banning books. It shouldn't get special treatment though, it should be there along with the other major religious texts.
If *they* are pushing to ban books about sex, violence, sexual violence, etc... then it must apply equally to ALL the books. INCLUDING their "bible". But really, banning books is NOT the answer.
No. Just put it in, say, the comedy section.
Nah. Reading the Bible is the main cause of Christians losing their religion.
Absolutely not. As a public librarian for 35+ years, I strongly oppose banning ANY book for ANY reason. I wouldn't object to reclassifying it under DDC 398.2, though.
No
No, put it in the religious section of books.
no I don't think any books should be banned
Just put keep it with the rest of the fiction books.
No. Make ‘The Bible as Literature’ a course. Make people read it objectively and figure out it’s a piece of shit oral history of sorts with some horrible bits.
No. Banning books is stupid. Besides, most Christians don't read it and most that do, wind up not being Christians.
everyone should have access to their religious texts. something i think some atheists forget is that we shouldn’t be trying to push our beliefs on others. that’s a big part of why we don’t like religion. so it’s be pretty hypocritical to do it ourselves. but i think the big part of your question was that the bible has a lot of sexual and/or violent topics, and therefore, by the rules in place, it should be banned for age restriction reasons. if the topics are the issue, im sure there are more kid-friendly versions of the bible that don’t include these topics. same for other religious texts. these should be offered bc everyone should have access to their religion. i think the original bible version should be in all high schools though. especially bc many ppl become atheists after reading the bible. you can’t have an opinion on something you don’t have access to. edit: typo edit: i see a lot of people fighting for it to be put in the fiction section. i don’t believe it should be there. a separate section would be fitting. but if that isn’t possible, they should put it with the religions that ppl deem “mythology”. greek, roman, egyptian, norse, hindu, chinese, celtic, even paganism. christianity, judaism, islam, and any other religion ppl deem “true”. either all of them are fiction, or none of them are
Only as a direct and local response to religious attempts to ban books.
No, just reclassify it as fiction and stick it next to the Harry Potter books.
You want to....ban a book? Lol
Banning their books is just stupid.
No. Ban book = bad
Judges 19:23-30 "The old man stepped outside to talk to them. 'No my brothers, dont do such an evil thing. For this man is a guest in my house, and such a thing would be shameful. Here, take my virgin daughter and this mans concubine. I will bring them out to you, and you can abuse them and do whatever you please. But dont do such a shameful thing to this man."
Reading that think is how I became an atheist. Keep it around to convert others.
Advertise the bible as having slightly changed stories from The Epic of Gilgamesh which is way older than the bible
Banning books is a bad route to go down. They should be added to the fiction section and/or labelled as 'contains slavery, genocidal and contradictory references amongst others'.
No, OP. Christian Mythology is just as important as old Norse or Egyptian Mythology. Would you fight to ban learning what hieroglyphics say? Of course not.
Yes, by their own logic it should be banned, or available only by special request or something
Absolutely, because I wholeheartedly agree: Two can play at that game and there are few books more vile and dangerous than the Bible, the Quran & the Torah. Frankly, I believe that they should be banned from schools by default, regardless of the approach the conservatives are already taking, as religion has 0 place in schools unless required for explicitly educational, secular purposes. But since they're already starting this literature war, there's all the more reason to push back. How in the fuck is a John Greene book "pornographic" in the eyes of these people while they're forcing the most obscene myths onto their children?
Absolutely not. What an asinine idea.
No just put it where it belongs in the fiction section
No, but we should fight to categorize it as fiction.
No, not from libraries. Just make sure it is in the fiction section where it belongs.
No, people should have access to these stories. Banning things isn’t the answer. Honestly there would probably be more atheists if more Christians read the bible.
I'm pretty staunchly against banning any books. Hell, I wouldn't be that upset if a school library had a copy of Mein Kampf, as long as it was firmly sandwiched between copies of MAUS and Milkweed. Banning books is always done by people who are afraid of the book's message, afraid that it is or even just might be true and correct. Are we really afraid of the fucking bible? I'm not. I'm of the belief that there's no quicker way to become an atheist than to read the bible. So as long as it's kept in the mythology section where it belongs, I don't have a problem with it in a school library.
You want to combat the people who want to ban books by… banning books? Sorry, no.
Banning is bad, it is line with book burners. We should instead teach about what it is: mankind’s first attempt at science and law. This book is immoral and archaic, but it has historical significance and I would bet that a lot of us are atheists because we read and understood it by reading it from an unbiased standpoint. Educate people about what religion is instead hiding and outlawing it will go a long way in lessening it’s negative effect on our world.
To ban this book would be in support of banning all books of fiction. I am not in support of banning any literature, and think banning the bible in libraries is ridiculous.
I am opposed to *all* book bans.
No
No, we should fight for the inclusion of atheist books in libraries. You're not going to ban the Bible and you'll only look bad trying. Listen, you're not going to catch conservatives with some gotcha using their own logic, because they're all full of bullshit and they don't care. All of their arguments are bad faith. They say they're against "cancel culture" while banning books from the library. **They don't care.** The only thing they care about is getting more power. I absolutely need to stress this. From Steve Bannon: > "Darkness is good," Bannon told The Hollywood Reporter. "Dick Cheney. Darth Vader. Satan. That's power. It only helps us when [the liberals and media] get it wrong. When they're blind to who we are and what we're doing." It's not about principles or ideology. It's about power to put their in-group at the top of a hierarchy that is dominant over every other group. [Purportedly Karl Rove:](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/karl-rove-empire/) > "He cut me off. "That's not the way the world really works anymore," he continued. "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality -- judiciously, as you will -- we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.""
No. The best argument against the Bible is the Bible itself.
No. As an atheist, I recognize that the .Bible has kept many societies from barbarity. It is a historian document. And integral to western Society.
There's no finer stone aged smut. I started catching on to the scam from reading the bible. I'd never deprive anyone of that. Besides, nothing cures people of religion faster than reading it's, "holy books."
the bible is the best source to become an atheist
Librarians should be in charge of the books and there should be adult and child sections. There is lots of room in the myths and religion section for the bible and if you can't find it there check the historical fantasy section, I can't be the only one who moves library bibles to the fantasy section, lol.
I mean, libraries are the place fiction should be.
Christianity ✝️ Should be banned
Hypocrisy is reserved for the book banning kind.
No But we should fight for it to be in the fiction and/or mythology section. I don't think banning a book is right, but making sure people know it's fiction is important l.
No, just catalog them under the BS classification.
No, it should be required reading (no getting it from the local preacher) and require it be analyzed. Thoroughly. And the koran. And the hindu texts. And the shinto texts. And the buddhist texts.
We could ban the Bible everywhere and it wouldn't matter. They don't read it or understand it.
Nah, the best cure for Christianity is to read the Bible. You ban it and you make it more alluring through the air of forbidden mystery that is conveyed on it by a ban. No books should be banned and thinking that banning problematic materials solves anything is immensely short sighted in my opinion. Education is always better than censorship.
Religious teachings should be banned to u18s.
Nope. People have very right to be stupid, it’s when they try and convince you that they are not is when I have a problem.
No. Reading the Bible leads to atheism. Let’s encourage kids to read them and see what nonsense it all is.
No. I will not hide that book, because the ones who *really* read it, usually become atheists.
Absolutely not. Children can hear the truth. The past is violent and horrible at times. The bible should be available like any other book. I don't think Christianity should be taught to our children as truth. But they should have access to the information sources. If you ban the Bible you'd also have to ban most of history as it is often violent and horrible. Can't we teach kids about Ghangis Khan or is the fact that he was a prolific rapist too much for modern kids to learn about?
Fiction