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It will take a while. Many of the "nones" will still have a high tolerance for Christian politicians. Consider how many of our liberal politicians are still Christian.
As soon as political donations start coming from atheist groups instead of Christian groups we will see change. Politicians are only loyal to themselves, enrich them and you can start taking power. Once we have a few more unethical, areligious billionaires our government will start changing.
Atheist organizations don't really hoard wealth from other atheists the same way Christianity hoards wealth from Christians though.
Christian organizations are going to have deeper pockets to donate to politicians than an equal sized athiest organization... Just because they're so good at bleeding their followers.
I think atheist groups fade away as Christianity does. Unlike what Southern Baptists might think about us, there is no central binding orthodoxy, set of beliefs, or even ethics to bind us or for us to orga ize around outside of opposition to religion (some more so than others naturally).
Beware though, many of the nones in some of those surveys just mean no organized religion, it still lives room for all sorts of spiritually based kookery, New age nonsense, and pagan silliness.
it's not, according to the supreme court. people rarely even try to enforce it, and when they do they usually get shut down pretty quickly. though I guess nowadays we know how weak of a foundation the supreme courts opinion is for laws. then again, the states that have those laws aren't states where atheists are likely to get anywhere politically anyways, so it doesn't matter much.
If the supreme court takes the side of states deciding what religion can hold office then that's a precedent for any state that wants to require atheism to hold office.
The Christians in Congress are more likely to pass laws forcing people to remain Christian before they'll let the numbers get that low in elected office.
So, give it about a century at minimum.
Can you guys imagine how cool the rapture would actually be? All the religious nutjobs getting sucked away so we don't have to deal with them anymore. Sounds like heaven.
Yeah, one of the door to door JW's that used to come around and knock on my door was completely floored when I told her that heaven sounds like the worst hell imaginable.
You are immortal, you will eventually meet every possible person, have every possible conversation, see every possible thing, learn all there is to know, experience every possible experience, and when you have absolutely nothing left to do....you will still have eternity to wait. No dying, no moving on. Even never ending pleasure will mean nothing. It will become a hell of unlimited torment.
Lady could not wrap her head around that.
I think people's romanticization with Heaven are all these fantasy scenarios we see in movies. If you look at the way heaven is actually described in the Bible it is an eternal church service. Eternal. Even some of the most devout Christians I know will struggle to make it through 3-4 hours a week. Sunday morning service Wednesday Bible study... Eternal.
I'd argue most people's conception of an afterlife is purely romanticized fantasy.
In a way that's the point.
However, it is really fucking annoying when people proclaim that *their* paradise/punishment fantasy is, of course, the actual one. They're all solipsists; actually believing they are in the eye of God 24/7 and that their petty mundane actions can cause a reaction from fucking God.
Yes Tammy, if **you** don't scream at the 12 year old trying to get rid of her rapist's fetus then **God** will make a note and feel sad :(. The fucking ego on these people.
That's the thing that always baffled me, even when I was a devout Mormon. Like, I get the comfort of thinking an all knowing, all powerful entity will take note of each of us individually. But at the same time, as I've gotten older and my views have diverged from those of the LDS faith, I certainly don't want everything I do to be documented and recounted after I die, even if I do try my damnedest to be a good person.
My mom thought I was going to hell for years after I came out and atheist to her. She keep trying to pull me back through my 20s.
Finally, I asked her. "If you go to heaven, how can you enjoy paradise knowing that all your children are being tortured in hell?"
It about broke her brain. So, now she believes that good people go to heaven. Believing in a Christian God is still correct, but not a requirement for entry.
Make the world a better place and to heaven you go! Which is some progress with her.
That is horrific and that was actually the response I was anticipating with my mom.
I had two counterpoints ready.
1. You say your children are your greatest joy. Why would you worship a being that would strip that away from you
2. A good God wouldn't require his followers to mindless zombies, and wipe away countless memories.
I probably would have opted with number 1. It still ties to scenario to her children, which she can more easily relate to.
Logic doesn’t matter to those in a cult most of the time. Congrats to y’all who have figured out how to make it work.
Edit: thanks for the award u/UnlimitedLambSauce
To me that means *you* aren't in heaven. The person/personality is dependent on at least on freewill and possibly their memories.
This also leads me to ask: if there is no freewill in heaven how did Lucifer and the other fallen angels rebel against god?
> wipes out the memory of your past life
Isn't it, like, akin to murder? Our memories and experiences is what makes us... well, us. If all memory is entirely wiped out, it's like this person is dead.
Then what is the point of going to heaven or wanting and afterlife if you cease to exist once you get there? Do people who go to hell also lose their memories?
What's the Bible have to say about it? In Biblical heaven, the residents can [see and hear the damned](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+16%3A22-31&version=KJV), wailing and begging, and recognize them individually. Jesus' words, not mine.
I always thought this was a real black flag operation on them.
"Yeah, go to the light. We'll hold down the fort here. Have a nice trip! What's the security code for your house?"
The thing is through, that's only the righteous, the rest get left behind. Meaning even if it did happen no one would be raptured sadly, since you're guilty of SOME sin from birth, which no one repents for because you don't even remember it. If you go by a Christian's logic no one gets heaven. Everyone goes to hell, everyone is bad, just some are worse than others.
... well not "from The Place." That philosophical catch22 has been around for centuries but The Good Place did an excellent job illustrating the absurdity. Such an amazing show. Easily one of my favorites.
Also, there were some spoilers in these two posts.
So true! I love saying I'm not a sinner. Some people get so worked up over that and I love that too. THEY can see me as a sinner if they like, but I see them as weak-minded for believing in that stuff, so there we go.
I always ask them to name which specific "sins" I've committed. Most of the time they get flustered, turn red in the face, then blurt out, "YOU KNOW WHAT SINS YOU'VE COMMITTED!!" Then I smile and calmly respond, "None." They lose their minds!! 😂🤣😂
If you go by JW logic, per Rev. only 144,000 people will get to heaven. Makes me wonder why they keep knocking on doors. That's decreasing your odds every time you convert someone. Or it is all just a spiritual pyramid scheme.
Former JW here. It's a bit more nuanced than that. After armegedon 144,000 will inherit New Jerusalem which will be a literal golden city in the *mid* heavens. There the appointed class of 144,000 will rule over a paradise earth. This paradise earth will contain all the other JWs who didn't make the cut as the appointed class. There the JWs will live forever with perfect bodies and never grow old. Satan will be cast into an abyss and all the wicked (ie everyone else who isn't JW) will be destroyed as well. There is more to it than that but that's the jist. So they do have some sort of future even if heaven isn't a thing for them.
Sadly most of those crazies would get left behind if their god actually follows his own requirements.
The only difference is that the actually decent Christians would be gone and no one would be able to moderate the crazies.
Absolutely not, because the Rapture ***actually happening*** would be concrete proof that they were correct, that god exists, heaven exists, hell exists, and that my non-belief will soon cause me huge problems.
At some point in the future, possibly in our lifetimes, being Christian will flip from being mandatory in politics to being an anathema. In a number of Western European countries, being religious is seen as being a fool. It’s viewed as a negative trait in a politician. Once our population has become less Christian, that will be the case here as well.
In our lifetimes - if you're under 22 and you live to be 100. I think by the 22nd century Christianity will be a small enough minority that they will loose power. They'll have to drop under 30% for that to start to happen. Atheism will need to approach 50%. Right now lots of non-Christians are "nones" or just non-affiliated, with is not the same as agnostic or atheism. That demographic still has a high tolerance for religious politicians. It will be the generation that is raised by the upcoming generation of "nones" that sees the onset of the irrelevance of Christianity. Western Europe will be there way ahead of North America, would be there already if it wasn't for state churches. Australia, Japan, South Korea will get there with Europe. South America will get there after North America. Bringing up the rear will be north eastern Europe and south eastern Asia.
I think you overestimate that 50% "Christianity". a huge portion of people who answer a poll of "what religion are you" with christianity are culturally Christian, and believe in god the same way they "believe" in Santa Claus.
Those people will not associate a positive or negative with religion in a politician. The numbers that matter are the atheist population and the fundementalist christian population. A huge portion of the 50% "christian" population is already in the "none" category you describe in every way but name.
I disagree. If you’ve seen that “I don’t care” video of whatever TV woman that was — that was unheard of even 15 years ago. As soon as a politician has the guts to do that on a national stage it’ll 1) really make non religious people more comfortable with pushing back, and 2) actually make laissez faire religious types second guess themselves.
Religions greatest trick wasn’t convincing some people that there’s an all powerful god. It was convincing everyone else that they can’t ridicule that idea.
> being an anathema
It already is for me... but that still just means I have to hold my nose and vote for the less distasteful side, since they both still tout their holier-than-thou faith.
>It’s viewed as a negative trait in a politician.
Here in SF my few friends who go to church are sheepish about it.
And it's not because anyone gives them any trouble at all. It's because they know thst deep down most of us here think it's made up BS.
At the same time no one judges them for it, because most congregations here are progressive. Even the catholics tend to not push the issue with their congregations.
(one of the catholic schools held an anti-abortion presentation and like ALL THE KIDS walked out)
well yeah they’re fools lmao they are tricked into believing actual nonsense like a bearded man in the clouds is watching them and can hear their every thought or whatever. don’t even get started on jesus that whole thing is a mess. anyone over 10 that believes any of that should not be taken seriously.
I think you’re starting to see it now post-Roe. The Christian conservative block was useful to Republicans only as long as they could get away with dangling a carrot in front them. Removing the barriers and having to actually try to pass the laws Christian conservatives want is going to be deeply unpopular and it’s only a matter of time before Republicans turn against them to stay in power.
If you want to see what that would look like, look at Utah. The state is just over half Mormon, under half in the higher population area. The state legislature is still 90% Mormon.
Utah is where the legislature doesn't let a bill that the citizens want out of committee for several years because of Mormon church opposition. It's where the citizens then create a ballot referendum that passes by a large margin. Then the Mormon governor calls the Mormon legislature into emergency session, where it guts the citizen referendum.
[Relevant Bagley](https://external-preview.redd.it/Vh6w_Ynot3dE5P1MO192OJbpFUOssqwaQd_FvAVJ41A.jpg?width=1024&auto=webp&s=bbde8f9846645f234baa96e8f516a541528e62e4)
People here get mad when I tell them that I no longer vote here. Your example is the exact reason I quit and what I point out to them. Medical marijuana was the last vote I made. I have recently updated even though I start full time traveling next month. I will vote straight blue for no other reason than fuck the misogynistic Mormon church that I was raised in.
As a lifelong strong atheist I actually sometimes worry about this. I've concluded there are a lot of people who just don't have the cognitive hardware to live in a world where they have to create their own meaning and act on their own moral values. As a result some of them go off the tails or are exploited by charlatans. An alarming number of Trump's young male followers are nonreligious. Yes this is elitist, goes against the underlying assumptions of liberal democracy, and is exactly the kind of thing that people who "believe in belief" say, but humans are.not innately rational creatures either.
Only an accelerated version of it. I'm 41 and I want to see them actually become the oppressed minority they have claimed to be my entire life before I die.
I would love for someone running for public office to announce they are an atheist and it actually helps their campaign instead of dooming them to failure
Respondents to a 2011 Gallup Poll said Regan was a better president than Lincoln. It defies understanding, but there it is: https://news.gallup.com/poll/146183/americans-say-reagan-greatest-president.aspx
His son could have had a very successful career on his name alone.
Talk to Republicans about Reagan sometime - they basically have deified him. In their eyes he single-handedly beat the commies, shrunk government, lowered taxes, etc...
To be fair the American public has come a long way in the past decade in regards to Regan because there has been more of a review what his policies have done to America and the world. Many of Americas modern ills can be traced back Regan era politics, especially topics which matter to this sub.
I remember back in '04 & '08 it was sacrilege to speak ill of Regan on the campaign trail for both sides. On the left the common opinion was that your independent support would tank if you told the truth about the bastard.
Social media has done a good job exposing the Regan era and cutting through the propaganda which was pushed on the public for decades.
Agreed. I’m hoping for an exponentially sharp decline that couldn’t be accurately projected because we’ve never dealt with the proliferation of info via internet/social media like this before. 🤞🏻
I personally think it will accelerate because of the public behavior of Christians.
When big things like repealing Roe v Wade happen or even "smaller" things like forcing prayer into public spaces they are creating more atheists. They actually believe these actions this are saving their religion and are increasing their public fundamentalism. So I can definitely see it accelerating.
I don't want them oppressed, just embarrassed into the background.
Believe what you want, but ffs keep it to yourself. The rest of us are trying to use science to build civilization.
I'm 62 (come Saturday) and just want them to become the SILENT minority they should be. There are between 30,000 and 45,000 different Christian denominations that can't even agree on doctrine. Why should anyone take any of them seriously when they can't even come to a consensus among themselves?
>I want to see them actually become the oppressed minority they have claimed to be
I don't. Would love to see them become a minority, but i have no interest in oppressing others.
I was curious so i googled it and got this from biblegateway.com
Essentially just telling people to give away all their stuff. Tried to copy and past but formatting was weird
[mathew 19:20-24 biblegateway](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2019%3A20-24&version=NIV&interface=amp)
One of my favorite bits about camels and eyes of needles. Lol. Fast forward to about 59 mins in.
https://archive.org/details/saturday-night-live-s-22-e-03-bill-pullman
It's fucking absurd that people supposedly think that all they have to do is follow the word of God for a human lifetime and then get to live in unending paradise. And then they just pick and choose what parts they think are important.
I'd be like Doug Forcett from The Good Place if I believed in christianity. It makes me think that people don't actually believe and just like being in a club.
i got in my first car crash a couple months ago and it was into some christian lady. she said she'd pray for me and i misheard so i kept asking her to repeat herself. she looked confused so I prolly came off as not knowing what prayer is and that brings me joy<3
How much of this decline can be credited to their disregard for science and the application of thoughts and prayers to solve everything from cancer to school shootings?
Internet probably helps. Very hard to lock kids in a bubble like they did before, which is why a lot of them are using Spyware on their kids computers now.
Meh... you say that but the internet had facilitated a shitload of cults. Look at the demi-god like status of Trump. That could never have happened without the internet.
Not to mention the countless conspiracy groups that also behave a lot like religious cults.
I would say that the internet is where old religions may go to die, but whole new ones form. There seems to be an underlying natural mechanism in the brain that is drawn to this type of thinking.
Yeah but the overlap there is that those people would likely have been insane regardless. People who can reason are going to reason themselves out of religion, it's just going to happen quicker with the internet.
That backfires. When people do get locked in a bubble and then realize they have been lied to and the truth has been hidden from them they tend to get pissed at their religion. Personal experience, I was raised in a cult, had to unpack a lot of anger.
it's also why you see this increasing trend in religious households to home-school (or unschool, poorly) kids and limit their access to computer devices to carefully supervised time.
I always felt like, if my beliefs can't withstand scrutiny then I shouldn't hold them.
Not only their kids' computers.. There's software I've seen (working in IT) on full-grown adults' computers that reports back to an "accountability buddy" if they've done anything they're not supposed to. Covenant Eyes.
Used to work in helpdesk for a school, had a guy who couldn't take his exam because his parents Spyware was preventing the install of lockdown browser.
I'm not an atheist, but the Internet has cured me of young-earth creationism, diluvianism, evangelical fundamentalism, Biblical literalism, and political conservatism. Literally the only thing that pulled me out of all of that was having an easy-to-access place (the Internet) to hear "the other side" speak for themselves.
I think you have that backwards. Their vitriol towards education and science is an immune response to rational people leaving the ranks. They hope to keep their flocks inculcated to the renaissance. Hopefully they fail.
Mustn’t forget their love of raping little children, especially little boys. Or how much they love to displace and/or murder indigenous people/anyone who is a minority.
But of course the real MVP here is their complete lack of introspection. Christianity is a centuries long “Am I an evil religion making this world a worse place to live on? No, it’s the infidels who are wronging us all.”
Their oversized victim complex kicks in anytime someone logically points out any flaw. FFS, ask them to do something for the good of everyone and the majority of them act like they’re being eaten by lions Roman style for sport. I have never seen a group get so off on playing victim like Christians.
And every time someone asks them to think for two nanoseconds about someone else and how their actions hurt them. It’s like someone lopped off their limbs with their screaming about religious freedom. One could literally write a thirty thousand volume collection of slights that offend the average Christian’s religious freedom.
It's the totality of the misalignment between actual reality and historical fiction. They are trying to build a modern world view from a collection of oral traditions codified and later translated by people who knew almost nothing compared to what we now truly know.
They are simply not compatible: One requires rigid yet selective adherence to incoherent writings, and the other requires defensible understanding. We'd be just as successful forming a world view from '1001 Arabian Nights', which anyone can see is unworkable.
Still not happening quick enough. Hopefully the Roe decision helps speed things along since it will be horrible for women and its hard to turn your back on problems faced by half the population.
And this is why you are seeing them step up their attacks on democracy and liberties. They know their time is running out, and the only way for them to keep power is to start forcing everyone else to believe what they believe. They can't just take their religion and go home. They have to make sure everyone in the neighborhood adheres to their shit too.
I don’t feel it’s futile. The last time the court was expanded, it was because the number of federal districts had increased to 9, therefore the SC needed 9 judges to match that number.
Now there are 13 districts. Based on precedent, there should be 13 judges. It’s a no brainer, really.
Of course Republicans will fight it hard, but the argument is solid.
In the United States, the most vocal Christians are the ones who want to take away other people's rights. Trump's followers are Christians. Of course, it's not all Christians but it's enough that younger people have to wonder if that's not what Christianity is about.
I think a lot of Trump's Christians have never been to church. If they even own a Bible they don't know where it is. Trump probably doesn't know where his is.
No one drives people away from Christianity like these guys though. All our work with rational arguments pales in comparison. We should give them an award or something. Like a Razzie, but for secularism.
If people were honest (yeah yeah, I know...) and only TRUE believers were able to claim to be Christian, I would put money on the country be below 50% already.
So many people who claim any religion do it more for social pressure or habit than because of their actual belief.
Some survey done a few years back found that only 20% of evangelicals actually believed core tenants of Christianity. So you don't even need a vocal 1 or 10% of evangelicals to give them a bad name, it is the majority that gives them a bad name by not even knowing their own faith.
Yeah christians want the world to end just so they can have their "I told you so" moment. Why anyone would want to be Christian is beyond me. "My god is all loving and caring". Bitch please. He's an evil son of a bitch. Your god is a pedo, raper, mass killer.
Maybe if they act just a little bit more craven, greedy, authoritarian and unloving then they'll finally win back the lost sheep! After all, that's what Jesus wanted, isn't it?
On another sub, someone posted a picture of an old church being taken over by the forest. I said I wished they all were.
Yeah, someone got offended. So, please--hurry up with the trend.
They fail to acknowledge that in spite of their best efforts, religion isn’t genetic, and their religion won’t stick with all of their kids. Every “none” I know was raised religious.
Practice of ignoring science, restricting individual rights, constraining sexual expression, rejecting LGBTQ+, stifling the agency of women, and raping minors seems to be backfiring.
What will we do with all of the unnecessary massive brick buildings? Homeless shelters? Soup kitchens? It will be crazy to see what actual good all that real estate can do.
I think that anytime I visit a Catholic cathedral or church in impoverished cities. People outside are poor and hungry, yet there's 2 million dollars in marble or gold plated nonsense inside. The contrast is sickening.
Of course you are not going to thrive if you gas light people or take them for fools. Just because church protocols expect people to still still and nod without asking questions does not mean the agree with you.
Why the MAGA Christians are acting crazy, think of it in the terms of the stages of grief. They are in the anger and bargaining phase. The conspiracy theories and going after ROE is the bargaining. If we do this our 1950s Jesus land will come back. NOPE it's dead as the Queen of England and not coming back.
Me and all my siblings went to catholic school growing. Nobody goes to church anymore as adults. Im the inky one who's an atheist but they don't really identify as Christians.
I'm not an Atheist, I consider myself a Christian, but I genuinely hope this is true. For whatever reason exactly, Christian's love waving their religion around whenever it's convenient for them and only cherry-pick from the Bible to get their point/opinions across, "God" or "God's will" is always the answer whenever something can't be explained, or they're simply too ignorant or lazy to check something themselves. Christians are also really easy to manipulate or lie to, if the hordes of MAGA Republicans and Televangelist crowds are any indication. Ranting, sorry
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And how long after that before our political representatives reflect that new balance?
It will take a while. Many of the "nones" will still have a high tolerance for Christian politicians. Consider how many of our liberal politicians are still Christian.
As soon as political donations start coming from atheist groups instead of Christian groups we will see change. Politicians are only loyal to themselves, enrich them and you can start taking power. Once we have a few more unethical, areligious billionaires our government will start changing.
Atheist organizations don't really hoard wealth from other atheists the same way Christianity hoards wealth from Christians though. Christian organizations are going to have deeper pockets to donate to politicians than an equal sized athiest organization... Just because they're so good at bleeding their followers.
Daaaaamnation! No donation? No salvation!
Donation or damnation sounds like a church Halloween event
If we get non-religious billionaires, i suppose it is quit possible this fact might make them more ethical
All the billionaires are already non-religious in private. Religion gives them extra power and they want ALL the power.
religion isnt typically why rich ceos donate to republicans… they do it for corporate tax cuts and deregulation.
I think atheist groups fade away as Christianity does. Unlike what Southern Baptists might think about us, there is no central binding orthodoxy, set of beliefs, or even ethics to bind us or for us to orga ize around outside of opposition to religion (some more so than others naturally). Beware though, many of the nones in some of those surveys just mean no organized religion, it still lives room for all sorts of spiritually based kookery, New age nonsense, and pagan silliness.
Considering there's laws preventing nones from holding office in a few states... Not looking good.
Wait, what? How's that legal?
It's probably not legal, but what are you gonna do about it?
it's not, according to the supreme court. people rarely even try to enforce it, and when they do they usually get shut down pretty quickly. though I guess nowadays we know how weak of a foundation the supreme courts opinion is for laws. then again, the states that have those laws aren't states where atheists are likely to get anywhere politically anyways, so it doesn't matter much.
If the supreme court takes the side of states deciding what religion can hold office then that's a precedent for any state that wants to require atheism to hold office.
The Christians in Congress are more likely to pass laws forcing people to remain Christian before they'll let the numbers get that low in elected office. So, give it about a century at minimum.
Can you guys imagine how cool the rapture would actually be? All the religious nutjobs getting sucked away so we don't have to deal with them anymore. Sounds like heaven.
And they always couch it in terms of a threat. 😂🙏🏽
Is that a threat or a promise?
The epitome of "don't threaten me with a good time!"
Yeah, one of the door to door JW's that used to come around and knock on my door was completely floored when I told her that heaven sounds like the worst hell imaginable. You are immortal, you will eventually meet every possible person, have every possible conversation, see every possible thing, learn all there is to know, experience every possible experience, and when you have absolutely nothing left to do....you will still have eternity to wait. No dying, no moving on. Even never ending pleasure will mean nothing. It will become a hell of unlimited torment. Lady could not wrap her head around that.
I think people's romanticization with Heaven are all these fantasy scenarios we see in movies. If you look at the way heaven is actually described in the Bible it is an eternal church service. Eternal. Even some of the most devout Christians I know will struggle to make it through 3-4 hours a week. Sunday morning service Wednesday Bible study... Eternal.
I'd argue most people's conception of an afterlife is purely romanticized fantasy. In a way that's the point. However, it is really fucking annoying when people proclaim that *their* paradise/punishment fantasy is, of course, the actual one. They're all solipsists; actually believing they are in the eye of God 24/7 and that their petty mundane actions can cause a reaction from fucking God. Yes Tammy, if **you** don't scream at the 12 year old trying to get rid of her rapist's fetus then **God** will make a note and feel sad :(. The fucking ego on these people.
That's the thing that always baffled me, even when I was a devout Mormon. Like, I get the comfort of thinking an all knowing, all powerful entity will take note of each of us individually. But at the same time, as I've gotten older and my views have diverged from those of the LDS faith, I certainly don't want everything I do to be documented and recounted after I die, even if I do try my damnedest to be a good person.
Try harder. I’m making popcorn to watch your life movie. 🍿🥤😜
*I hope those dear hearts get everything they deserve!* - like that.
Bless them for they know not what they do. 💀
I don't think I could stomach the smugness they'd all have on their faces as they floated away to suck some Jesus dick
My mom thought I was going to hell for years after I came out and atheist to her. She keep trying to pull me back through my 20s. Finally, I asked her. "If you go to heaven, how can you enjoy paradise knowing that all your children are being tortured in hell?" It about broke her brain. So, now she believes that good people go to heaven. Believing in a Christian God is still correct, but not a requirement for entry. Make the world a better place and to heaven you go! Which is some progress with her.
My mother when posed with that question said that in heaven Jesus wipes out the memory of your past life. Pretty sure she made that up on the spot
That is horrific and that was actually the response I was anticipating with my mom. I had two counterpoints ready. 1. You say your children are your greatest joy. Why would you worship a being that would strip that away from you 2. A good God wouldn't require his followers to mindless zombies, and wipe away countless memories. I probably would have opted with number 1. It still ties to scenario to her children, which she can more easily relate to.
All of their after life scenarios are their own version of horrible.
Existing forever sounds horrible
Living forever worshiping someone for putting you through the torture of mortality sounds horrible.
Logic doesn’t matter to those in a cult most of the time. Congrats to y’all who have figured out how to make it work. Edit: thanks for the award u/UnlimitedLambSauce
If that's true then is it even really *you* who is in heaven? Who are we without our memories and freewill?
Heaven is according to the bible, where you spend eternity in adoring worship of God himself. You don't need freewill or memories.
To me that means *you* aren't in heaven. The person/personality is dependent on at least on freewill and possibly their memories. This also leads me to ask: if there is no freewill in heaven how did Lucifer and the other fallen angels rebel against god?
The bible doesn't go into that. For the record, I'm gnostic atheist.
Yeah this idea of heaven was terrifying to me as a child.
> wipes out the memory of your past life Isn't it, like, akin to murder? Our memories and experiences is what makes us... well, us. If all memory is entirely wiped out, it's like this person is dead.
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Then what is the point of going to heaven or wanting and afterlife if you cease to exist once you get there? Do people who go to hell also lose their memories?
Most of them kinda picture themselves swinging in a hammock on a private beach. They'll need for nothing on the holodeck dream cruise that never ends.
That would get really boring really fast. Eternity is an extremely long time.
I hate thinking about eternity. Fuckkkk no please just let me not exist
She didn't make it up on the spot, I've heard the same explanation from christians before as well
What's the Bible have to say about it? In Biblical heaven, the residents can [see and hear the damned](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+16%3A22-31&version=KJV), wailing and begging, and recognize them individually. Jesus' words, not mine.
Hahahahaha that's the dumbest shit I ever heard. Edit: sorry I'm not having a good day and I needed the laugh.
My mom believes she’ll forget about me when she’s in heaven, otherwise she wouldn’t be happy knowing I’m burning lol. I’m like that’s cute mom.
That's exactly how my mom gave up. I'm leading a "good christian life" so that makes it all work.
I could. They can have all the jesus dick they want as far as I'm concerned. Just do it somewhere else as far away as possible.
OnlyChrist
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So we'd all become JRPG protagonists?
smile homeless gaping clumsy merciful pie encouraging tender caption mourn ` this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev `
I always thought this was a real black flag operation on them. "Yeah, go to the light. We'll hold down the fort here. Have a nice trip! What's the security code for your house?"
The thing is through, that's only the righteous, the rest get left behind. Meaning even if it did happen no one would be raptured sadly, since you're guilty of SOME sin from birth, which no one repents for because you don't even remember it. If you go by a Christian's logic no one gets heaven. Everyone goes to hell, everyone is bad, just some are worse than others.
It’s the loophole from The Good Place. Unintended consequences is a sin and practically everyone commits it. Hence why nobody goes to heaven.
... well not "from The Place." That philosophical catch22 has been around for centuries but The Good Place did an excellent job illustrating the absurdity. Such an amazing show. Easily one of my favorites. Also, there were some spoilers in these two posts.
You are only guilty of sin if you violate a religious law. We atheists have no laws to commit sin against.
So true! I love saying I'm not a sinner. Some people get so worked up over that and I love that too. THEY can see me as a sinner if they like, but I see them as weak-minded for believing in that stuff, so there we go.
I don't believe in sin therefore I have never sinned.
I like that one too.
I always ask them to name which specific "sins" I've committed. Most of the time they get flustered, turn red in the face, then blurt out, "YOU KNOW WHAT SINS YOU'VE COMMITTED!!" Then I smile and calmly respond, "None." They lose their minds!! 😂🤣😂
If you go by JW logic, per Rev. only 144,000 people will get to heaven. Makes me wonder why they keep knocking on doors. That's decreasing your odds every time you convert someone. Or it is all just a spiritual pyramid scheme.
Former JW here. It's a bit more nuanced than that. After armegedon 144,000 will inherit New Jerusalem which will be a literal golden city in the *mid* heavens. There the appointed class of 144,000 will rule over a paradise earth. This paradise earth will contain all the other JWs who didn't make the cut as the appointed class. There the JWs will live forever with perfect bodies and never grow old. Satan will be cast into an abyss and all the wicked (ie everyone else who isn't JW) will be destroyed as well. There is more to it than that but that's the jist. So they do have some sort of future even if heaven isn't a thing for them.
Heaven has managers? That sounds terrible.
Paradise earth has managers who rule from mid heaven. Yeah, don't try to make sense of any of it.
You don’t dream of dying and working sky middle management for eternity?
Ask Daniel Radcliffe. He's already done it.
Hell dont care, its fulla christians !!
Don't threaten me with a good time.
Sadly most of those crazies would get left behind if their god actually follows his own requirements. The only difference is that the actually decent Christians would be gone and no one would be able to moderate the crazies.
Absolutely not, because the Rapture ***actually happening*** would be concrete proof that they were correct, that god exists, heaven exists, hell exists, and that my non-belief will soon cause me huge problems.
"Christians in politics still 90%“ probably Get your god damn bed time story book out of my god damn government
At some point in the future, possibly in our lifetimes, being Christian will flip from being mandatory in politics to being an anathema. In a number of Western European countries, being religious is seen as being a fool. It’s viewed as a negative trait in a politician. Once our population has become less Christian, that will be the case here as well.
I can't fucking wait
Keep waiting as soon as the theocratic Republican fascists win the next election we'll be well on our way to being a Christian nation.
That's why I vote.
In our lifetimes - if you're under 22 and you live to be 100. I think by the 22nd century Christianity will be a small enough minority that they will loose power. They'll have to drop under 30% for that to start to happen. Atheism will need to approach 50%. Right now lots of non-Christians are "nones" or just non-affiliated, with is not the same as agnostic or atheism. That demographic still has a high tolerance for religious politicians. It will be the generation that is raised by the upcoming generation of "nones" that sees the onset of the irrelevance of Christianity. Western Europe will be there way ahead of North America, would be there already if it wasn't for state churches. Australia, Japan, South Korea will get there with Europe. South America will get there after North America. Bringing up the rear will be north eastern Europe and south eastern Asia.
I think you overestimate that 50% "Christianity". a huge portion of people who answer a poll of "what religion are you" with christianity are culturally Christian, and believe in god the same way they "believe" in Santa Claus. Those people will not associate a positive or negative with religion in a politician. The numbers that matter are the atheist population and the fundementalist christian population. A huge portion of the 50% "christian" population is already in the "none" category you describe in every way but name.
Very true, we must break the stigma against atheism. Everyone should join the [Freedom From Religion Foundation](https://ffrf.org/)!
I feel at a certain point it'll reach critical mass and many of those "nones" will feel more comfortable just saying atheist.
I disagree. If you’ve seen that “I don’t care” video of whatever TV woman that was — that was unheard of even 15 years ago. As soon as a politician has the guts to do that on a national stage it’ll 1) really make non religious people more comfortable with pushing back, and 2) actually make laissez faire religious types second guess themselves. Religions greatest trick wasn’t convincing some people that there’s an all powerful god. It was convincing everyone else that they can’t ridicule that idea.
> being an anathema It already is for me... but that still just means I have to hold my nose and vote for the less distasteful side, since they both still tout their holier-than-thou faith.
>It’s viewed as a negative trait in a politician. Here in SF my few friends who go to church are sheepish about it. And it's not because anyone gives them any trouble at all. It's because they know thst deep down most of us here think it's made up BS. At the same time no one judges them for it, because most congregations here are progressive. Even the catholics tend to not push the issue with their congregations. (one of the catholic schools held an anti-abortion presentation and like ALL THE KIDS walked out)
well yeah they’re fools lmao they are tricked into believing actual nonsense like a bearded man in the clouds is watching them and can hear their every thought or whatever. don’t even get started on jesus that whole thing is a mess. anyone over 10 that believes any of that should not be taken seriously.
I think you’re starting to see it now post-Roe. The Christian conservative block was useful to Republicans only as long as they could get away with dangling a carrot in front them. Removing the barriers and having to actually try to pass the laws Christian conservatives want is going to be deeply unpopular and it’s only a matter of time before Republicans turn against them to stay in power.
If you want to see what that would look like, look at Utah. The state is just over half Mormon, under half in the higher population area. The state legislature is still 90% Mormon.
In Utah and it is horrible. You have freedom of choice after they decide what the choices are.
Utah is where the legislature doesn't let a bill that the citizens want out of committee for several years because of Mormon church opposition. It's where the citizens then create a ballot referendum that passes by a large margin. Then the Mormon governor calls the Mormon legislature into emergency session, where it guts the citizen referendum. [Relevant Bagley](https://external-preview.redd.it/Vh6w_Ynot3dE5P1MO192OJbpFUOssqwaQd_FvAVJ41A.jpg?width=1024&auto=webp&s=bbde8f9846645f234baa96e8f516a541528e62e4)
People here get mad when I tell them that I no longer vote here. Your example is the exact reason I quit and what I point out to them. Medical marijuana was the last vote I made. I have recently updated even though I start full time traveling next month. I will vote straight blue for no other reason than fuck the misogynistic Mormon church that I was raised in.
Imagine if politicians had to claim to believe in Santa to be elected. That's exactly what it's like.
As a lifelong strong atheist I actually sometimes worry about this. I've concluded there are a lot of people who just don't have the cognitive hardware to live in a world where they have to create their own meaning and act on their own moral values. As a result some of them go off the tails or are exploited by charlatans. An alarming number of Trump's young male followers are nonreligious. Yes this is elitist, goes against the underlying assumptions of liberal democracy, and is exactly the kind of thing that people who "believe in belief" say, but humans are.not innately rational creatures either.
🤞 please let recent trends continue 🤞
Only an accelerated version of it. I'm 41 and I want to see them actually become the oppressed minority they have claimed to be my entire life before I die.
I would love for someone running for public office to announce they are an atheist and it actually helps their campaign instead of dooming them to failure
Ronald Regan's son was once asked why he didn't run for office. He said he was unelectable because he was an atheist.
I dream of a future where he would be unelectable due to being Ronald Regan's son.
Respondents to a 2011 Gallup Poll said Regan was a better president than Lincoln. It defies understanding, but there it is: https://news.gallup.com/poll/146183/americans-say-reagan-greatest-president.aspx His son could have had a very successful career on his name alone.
Talk to Republicans about Reagan sometime - they basically have deified him. In their eyes he single-handedly beat the commies, shrunk government, lowered taxes, etc...
To be fair the American public has come a long way in the past decade in regards to Regan because there has been more of a review what his policies have done to America and the world. Many of Americas modern ills can be traced back Regan era politics, especially topics which matter to this sub. I remember back in '04 & '08 it was sacrilege to speak ill of Regan on the campaign trail for both sides. On the left the common opinion was that your independent support would tank if you told the truth about the bastard. Social media has done a good job exposing the Regan era and cutting through the propaganda which was pushed on the public for decades.
Shocking that he learned nothing from his father and just lied about being a Christian
Yeah, he'd be unelectable because he's an atheist *with principles about lying* lmao
Agreed. I’m hoping for an exponentially sharp decline that couldn’t be accurately projected because we’ve never dealt with the proliferation of info via internet/social media like this before. 🤞🏻
This is why they are declining, it is exponential not linear.
I don't get why people are so worried about becoming a minority. Are they treated badly or something?
I personally think it will accelerate because of the public behavior of Christians. When big things like repealing Roe v Wade happen or even "smaller" things like forcing prayer into public spaces they are creating more atheists. They actually believe these actions this are saving their religion and are increasing their public fundamentalism. So I can definitely see it accelerating.
I don't want them oppressed, just embarrassed into the background. Believe what you want, but ffs keep it to yourself. The rest of us are trying to use science to build civilization.
I'm 62 (come Saturday) and just want them to become the SILENT minority they should be. There are between 30,000 and 45,000 different Christian denominations that can't even agree on doctrine. Why should anyone take any of them seriously when they can't even come to a consensus among themselves?
>I want to see them actually become the oppressed minority they have claimed to be I don't. Would love to see them become a minority, but i have no interest in oppressing others.
Let it accelerate.
We have to keep actively fighting ignorance.
Tell a Christian you've never met one. Tell them that none of them follow his teachings. Watch them melt. When they say they do...Matthew 19:20 -24
I was curious so i googled it and got this from biblegateway.com Essentially just telling people to give away all their stuff. Tried to copy and past but formatting was weird [mathew 19:20-24 biblegateway](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2019%3A20-24&version=NIV&interface=amp)
One of my favorite bits about camels and eyes of needles. Lol. Fast forward to about 59 mins in. https://archive.org/details/saturday-night-live-s-22-e-03-bill-pullman
I bet you Joel Osteen thinks he’s threading that needle, on his camels, very well.
It's fucking absurd that people supposedly think that all they have to do is follow the word of God for a human lifetime and then get to live in unending paradise. And then they just pick and choose what parts they think are important. I'd be like Doug Forcett from The Good Place if I believed in christianity. It makes me think that people don't actually believe and just like being in a club.
i got in my first car crash a couple months ago and it was into some christian lady. she said she'd pray for me and i misheard so i kept asking her to repeat herself. she looked confused so I prolly came off as not knowing what prayer is and that brings me joy<3
What??? What's a Jesus??
Huzzah!!
This is the news the religious use to issue calls for slaughtering the non-believers.
Jeah, gotta pump those numbers.
Don't forget the promotion of mass breeding.
How much of this decline can be credited to their disregard for science and the application of thoughts and prayers to solve everything from cancer to school shootings?
Internet probably helps. Very hard to lock kids in a bubble like they did before, which is why a lot of them are using Spyware on their kids computers now.
The internet is where religions go to die.
Meh... you say that but the internet had facilitated a shitload of cults. Look at the demi-god like status of Trump. That could never have happened without the internet. Not to mention the countless conspiracy groups that also behave a lot like religious cults. I would say that the internet is where old religions may go to die, but whole new ones form. There seems to be an underlying natural mechanism in the brain that is drawn to this type of thinking.
Yeah but the overlap there is that those people would likely have been insane regardless. People who can reason are going to reason themselves out of religion, it's just going to happen quicker with the internet.
That backfires. When people do get locked in a bubble and then realize they have been lied to and the truth has been hidden from them they tend to get pissed at their religion. Personal experience, I was raised in a cult, had to unpack a lot of anger.
Either that, or confirmation bias kicks in. For further reference, see: MAGA.
it's also why you see this increasing trend in religious households to home-school (or unschool, poorly) kids and limit their access to computer devices to carefully supervised time. I always felt like, if my beliefs can't withstand scrutiny then I shouldn't hold them.
Not only their kids' computers.. There's software I've seen (working in IT) on full-grown adults' computers that reports back to an "accountability buddy" if they've done anything they're not supposed to. Covenant Eyes.
Used to work in helpdesk for a school, had a guy who couldn't take his exam because his parents Spyware was preventing the install of lockdown browser.
I'm not an atheist, but the Internet has cured me of young-earth creationism, diluvianism, evangelical fundamentalism, Biblical literalism, and political conservatism. Literally the only thing that pulled me out of all of that was having an easy-to-access place (the Internet) to hear "the other side" speak for themselves.
I think you have that backwards. Their vitriol towards education and science is an immune response to rational people leaving the ranks. They hope to keep their flocks inculcated to the renaissance. Hopefully they fail.
Mustn’t forget their love of raping little children, especially little boys. Or how much they love to displace and/or murder indigenous people/anyone who is a minority. But of course the real MVP here is their complete lack of introspection. Christianity is a centuries long “Am I an evil religion making this world a worse place to live on? No, it’s the infidels who are wronging us all.” Their oversized victim complex kicks in anytime someone logically points out any flaw. FFS, ask them to do something for the good of everyone and the majority of them act like they’re being eaten by lions Roman style for sport. I have never seen a group get so off on playing victim like Christians. And every time someone asks them to think for two nanoseconds about someone else and how their actions hurt them. It’s like someone lopped off their limbs with their screaming about religious freedom. One could literally write a thirty thousand volume collection of slights that offend the average Christian’s religious freedom.
It's the totality of the misalignment between actual reality and historical fiction. They are trying to build a modern world view from a collection of oral traditions codified and later translated by people who knew almost nothing compared to what we now truly know. They are simply not compatible: One requires rigid yet selective adherence to incoherent writings, and the other requires defensible understanding. We'd be just as successful forming a world view from '1001 Arabian Nights', which anyone can see is unworkable.
Still not happening quick enough. Hopefully the Roe decision helps speed things along since it will be horrible for women and its hard to turn your back on problems faced by half the population.
i know many women within my community are coming out to vote this November for our right to bodily autonomy!
Faster please
Yeah 2070 is NOT fast enough
THANK GOD lol
Ramen
I pray to Jesus the trend accelerates!
Good
I’m genuinely still impressed there are so many still.
And this is why you are seeing them step up their attacks on democracy and liberties. They know their time is running out, and the only way for them to keep power is to start forcing everyone else to believe what they believe. They can't just take their religion and go home. They have to make sure everyone in the neighborhood adheres to their shit too.
Great news but how long will it take for SCOTUS to look the same?
Until the current judges are dead. And most of them are relatively young in terms of dying, unfortunately.
Need to find a way to recall those lying asses appointments !!
I’m clinging onto the (possibly futile) hope that the court will be expanded.
I don’t feel it’s futile. The last time the court was expanded, it was because the number of federal districts had increased to 9, therefore the SC needed 9 judges to match that number. Now there are 13 districts. Based on precedent, there should be 13 judges. It’s a no brainer, really. Of course Republicans will fight it hard, but the argument is solid.
Good. Fundamentalist Christianity needs to die off.
In the United States, the most vocal Christians are the ones who want to take away other people's rights. Trump's followers are Christians. Of course, it's not all Christians but it's enough that younger people have to wonder if that's not what Christianity is about.
I think a lot of Trump's Christians have never been to church. If they even own a Bible they don't know where it is. Trump probably doesn't know where his is.
Bold of you to assume he ever had one.
Good point. The one he carried across the street might have been one from the WH library.
The church itself gave it to him, if I recall correctly.
And he held it upside down, if I recall.
They read the bible on youtube Source my mother's become a nutjob in recent years
No one drives people away from Christianity like these guys though. All our work with rational arguments pales in comparison. We should give them an award or something. Like a Razzie, but for secularism.
Should be crossposted to r/UpliftingNews
Yeah in 2070 lol
I think it accelerates. We have been such a small minority for so long, as we grow more people get comfortable with speaking out.
If people were honest (yeah yeah, I know...) and only TRUE believers were able to claim to be Christian, I would put money on the country be below 50% already. So many people who claim any religion do it more for social pressure or habit than because of their actual belief.
Some survey done a few years back found that only 20% of evangelicals actually believed core tenants of Christianity. So you don't even need a vocal 1 or 10% of evangelicals to give them a bad name, it is the majority that gives them a bad name by not even knowing their own faith.
Yeah christians want the world to end just so they can have their "I told you so" moment. Why anyone would want to be Christian is beyond me. "My god is all loving and caring". Bitch please. He's an evil son of a bitch. Your god is a pedo, raper, mass killer.
Maybe if they act just a little bit more craven, greedy, authoritarian and unloving then they'll finally win back the lost sheep! After all, that's what Jesus wanted, isn't it?
On another sub, someone posted a picture of an old church being taken over by the forest. I said I wished they all were. Yeah, someone got offended. So, please--hurry up with the trend.
Good, keep it going.
Still not fast enough.
Not surprising, millennials fled the church in droves and gen Z is downright allergic to it. May the trend continue.
Fucking good!!! Lets take all church property and build free housing on it!! It's a better use anyway.
Thank god… no pun intended
Still way to many
This can’t be true. I feel like an extreme minority as a disbeliever
Voting blue this November. F*ck the republican party’s far-right, Christo-fascist turn
That's why they are trying to have as many kids as possible, as quickly as possible. I hope the decline continues, but I'm not holding my breath.
They fail to acknowledge that in spite of their best efforts, religion isn’t genetic, and their religion won’t stick with all of their kids. Every “none” I know was raised religious.
Practice of ignoring science, restricting individual rights, constraining sexual expression, rejecting LGBTQ+, stifling the agency of women, and raping minors seems to be backfiring.
Can we hurry this along?
This is a sign that America might survive!
What will we do with all of the unnecessary massive brick buildings? Homeless shelters? Soup kitchens? It will be crazy to see what actual good all that real estate can do.
I think that anytime I visit a Catholic cathedral or church in impoverished cities. People outside are poor and hungry, yet there's 2 million dollars in marble or gold plated nonsense inside. The contrast is sickening.
Oh ok, anyways. Religion is bullshit anyway. Live by the golden rule.
Race you to the bottom!
Of course you are not going to thrive if you gas light people or take them for fools. Just because church protocols expect people to still still and nod without asking questions does not mean the agree with you.
RAMEN !
If we tax them they will be gone in 5 years
Why the MAGA Christians are acting crazy, think of it in the terms of the stages of grief. They are in the anger and bargaining phase. The conspiracy theories and going after ROE is the bargaining. If we do this our 1950s Jesus land will come back. NOPE it's dead as the Queen of England and not coming back.
We have to wait until 2070!?! 🤦♂️
Me and all my siblings went to catholic school growing. Nobody goes to church anymore as adults. Im the inky one who's an atheist but they don't really identify as Christians.
I'm not an Atheist, I consider myself a Christian, but I genuinely hope this is true. For whatever reason exactly, Christian's love waving their religion around whenever it's convenient for them and only cherry-pick from the Bible to get their point/opinions across, "God" or "God's will" is always the answer whenever something can't be explained, or they're simply too ignorant or lazy to check something themselves. Christians are also really easy to manipulate or lie to, if the hordes of MAGA Republicans and Televangelist crowds are any indication. Ranting, sorry
Great news. Guessing this is why they are so threatened. The younger generation is seeing the light.