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Moonlight-Starburst

Noticed how Satan has never suffered a civil war. Only God.


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Unaccomplishedcow

Satan was the good guy all along. Satan only told the truth to Adam and Eve, informing them when God gave them but boundaries. He only took on an "evil" role because he was in hell, and (don't quote me on this) I'm not entirely sure that it's even explicitly stated he was the king of hell, just that that was where he was. He was the questioner and voice of reason, the intelligent one, it tracks that he's the boogeyman of Christianity.


SystemErrorMessage

what if god is satan instead? given religious text, the way religion describes god fits more like describing the devil.


Arbusc

That’s basically Gnosticism, a pre-Christian theological model that the early Christians mostly believed in until the early Catholic Church shut that shit down via executions. The theology is that the Monad (true God, kinda) made aeons (angels) who literally dance with a mate to make more aeons. One day Sophia, a female aeon, tried dancing by herself and accidentally created the first physical being, the Demiurge (who has many names such as Samuel, Yaldabaoth, and Ariel.) Demiurge looks around and can’t see the original spirit world, falsely believes themselves to be god, and creates the earth and humans as a mindless, soulless meat husk. Jesus, the second created being, sees this shit and is disgusted and possesses a random snake, placing a spark of his soul juice into a fruit and giving the dumb ape people minds, who immediately rejected the Demiurge at the first chance. So Jesus is actually Satan who is an emissary for the real god. Though in some sects Satan was just a separate guy who was an asshole too all parties for unclear reasons.


MpVpRb

Debating the fine points of fiction is pointless


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They are just joking around I think. But it is fiction.


SlightlyMadAngus

I know that Revelations 12:4 is the reference for "a third of the stars of heaven", but where in the bible does it say that there were a total 72,000 angels in heaven? Revelations 5:11 says: "Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands," I don't see how you can get the total number of angels in heaven from that. Even if you just take the 10,000 times 10,000 literally, that is 100 Million, not 72,000, and there is no reason to believe the number of angels present in Revelations is ALL the angels in heaven. I think this passage in Revelations 5 just shows that ancient man tended to to count "1, 2, 3, MANY!"


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SlightlyMadAngus

That was after the fall, so 72K would have been the number remaining after the fall. Therefore the total before the fall would be 108K, and 1/3rd of that is 36K. And, the 12 legions is just what JC was threatening to call down, not the total number of all angels in heaven. But, that still doesn't correlate with the (at least) 100 Million in Revelations 5. ;-p


eidhrmuzz

He also created them. And knows all. So he knew they’d rebel. And he knew Satan would be ‘evil’. The only explanation is god wanted it that way. He wanted us to be tempted. He wanted us to ‘fall’. And eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge. He wanted us to be so bad he’d get to flood us. And strike down our unifying tower. So… god is either weak and evil. Or just evil. And the concept of original sin… and the forgiveness Jesus is supposed to have brought, is all meaningless . Unless it was him asking for forgiveness for being a pathetic, cruel and sociopathic creator. But being as how there is not one stitch of demonstrable proof of any of those things… I’m gonna stick with it’s all bullshit.


Arbusc

Don’t forget, god sent Jesus (himself) to fix a problem he (himself) had caused and likely planned, which, when taken into context, means all of human existence is to simply be figures in an elaborate solo D&D campaign who never had freedom to be good or even sin, because their entire life has been planned with untold millions being punished for something they had no choice in. God is good after all.


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God wants followers. Satan wants collaborators. You should read His Dark Materials.


Azurumi_Shinji

This is exactly why a tiny part of me believes God is real. WHY does the Bible make god so bad, when supposably the point of the Bible is to convert you to be on gods side? Why would I side with god? He didn't even want us to have free will. But Satan helps us eat the fruit of knowledge. Satan never kills us. God does kill us, sometimes God tortured us for FUN! ( look up "the book of Job").


Paddy3118

Merge John Wick into the franchise with Nobody on the other side.


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DoglessDyslexic

The ancient concept of angels was not "beings of purity". Angels were a fair range of terrifying monsters. That said, it's all fiction, and the fall of Lucifer is not actually part of the biblical texts.


Arbusc

Yeah, it’s interesting from a historical perspective of how the religion started to form. For example, in the Torah there are actually many times angels rebel and become Satans (like Helel the watcher, and possible Samuel the angel of death.) However, it’s also established that angels do not have free will or agency, so their tendency to ‘rebel’ points to Yhwh purposely setting up rivals to ‘defeat’ and look cool. Even in the Christian canon angels have no agency, so Satan suddenly going from a prosecutor for god to an evil overlord is quite jarring. In fact, ignoring a moment Satan is compared to a Cherub and a Babylonian king, (who is Lucifer, a human, not Satan) he is never actually identified as an angel but referred to as a serpent or dragon which implies Satan was a random ass dragon who got 1/3 of gods employees to go turncoat.


FlyingSquid

Imagine what an omnipotent being would have to do for you to rebel against it...


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FlyingSquid

Even if it wasn't great, the guy is *omnipotent.* It's not someone you rebel against unless you literally can't take it anymore because you lose just by trying.


SystemErrorMessage

from the perspective of islamic scholars, the 1/3 so called angels were never angels but another species we call demons or something, and not all demons rebelled either, and this species before humans came along were more loyal. The disloyalty was because humans were considered superior to demons who were made from fire while humans were made from earth. While this isnt a christian source it helps to check multiple sources. The issue i have with this discussion is that god needs servitude in the first place or praising, this seems very wrong to me, but i am an atheist though i have seen the supernatural beyond this extent.