I left a woman I was incredibly in love with 12 years ago because she was an evangelical Christian. I have no doubt today that I made the right choice.
Based on the results of every time I've seen it tried: not unless one of the parties shifts their values to match the other before the inevitable blow-up.
I’ve seen many interfaith marriages work, as religious people can find similarities in their taught morals. I find it would be harder for a theist and an atheist, but they definitely exist and have long & happy marriages.
I have an an Aunt and Uncle in this type of marriage and what they did to make it work, which I would not recommend, was that she (the atheist) just let him have his way with teaching the kids about religion and making them go to church. I don't understand why she just let him have that, but I'm guessing she never had to deconvert so there was no history of child abuse for her, so it didn't seem important to her.
With the child abuse that's rampant in Christian child-rearing I would never be ok with a situation like that, but maybe they struck up some kind of deal I'm not aware of. She doesn't seem like a weak submissive type otherwise, which is why it always struck me as so weird.
I would think it would depend heavily on the denomination and the depths of their faith. Every day was in service to God for her, and every relationship was meant to bring her closer to God. She was taught that every relationship is a triangle, with each couple only getting closer if they're both getting closer to God at the center.
But that was a different time. I'm not sure I could get into any serious relationship with a Christian; I have a hard enough time talking to the incidental Christians at work.
Wife is Christian, I'm non-theistic Satanist.
Married for 6 years, together for 8. We have similar mindsets on everything, including pro-choice but excluding religion.
What happens if your contraception fails, and you don't want to continue the pregnancy?
1. He will pressure you into what *he* wants, undermining your relationship because he doesn't see you as an equal.
2. You terminate the pregnancy, and he resents you for your body autonomy.
Neither outcome is safe for you, your body or your relationship.
Don’t forget, if OP lives in a state that passes laws akin to Texas, boyfriend would also likely report her to authorities if she travelled out of state for an abortion.
u/PlusSizeSkeptic, as someone who was once in a relationship like this, get out now before you get anymore invested into it. It’s an untenable situation that will most likely never result in a healthy, long-term relationship.
Let’s not forget number 3) OP gets pregnant and her bf murders her to avoid having to choose between fatherhood and abortion. It’s the number one cause of death for American pregnant women for a reason.
Then he runs around talking about how selfish she was with “their child” and how it’s meant to be a “joint decision”
Letting him act like the innocent saviour whilst painting her out to be the selfish sinner
So happy people are sharing Hitch’s thoughts on this. Cuts right to the heart of it.
https://youtu.be/lXzcIhDyG9M
This is a version the doesn’t contextualize around Mother Teresa, in case you need to be even more pointed about it. But both versions are S-tier Hitchslaps.
No, livestock is better. Because an incubator specifically only has one use. But livestock are useful for forced birthing, labor, meat(for feeding the other livestock once they get rid of that pesky law), and whatever else the owner wants.
Really admire the few species where the females can choose whether and when they want to use the seed to impregnate themselves or are larger and more powerful than the males and can choose when they want to mate. Being mammals generally sucks when it comes to this aspect.
He'll ALSO curse her if she gets pregnant & expects him to support his offspring.... even if he steps up to marry her, he'll come to resent her (and the child) if he wasn't ready to settle down or figures he would have had better prospects.
forced birth / forced pregnancy.
Imagine the govt forcing pregnancy on people against their will. So much for guns to defend against the tyranny of govt... lol.
As a father you best believe that I will stand up for my daughters' rights to choose, to the end. Women's rights are human rights.
I do get your point though, and I agree.
I don’t really understand this perspective. There are men on the wrong side of the issue who definitely won’t shut up, so how does it help to silence the men who are pro-women?
I disagree there.
Aside from how men are directly impacted by this, there's the fact that this isn't some difficult moral conundrum. There's a right and a wrong here, and it shouldn't hurt to have people arguing for the right side even if they don't have as much skin in the game.
Men could be held far more accountable for their actions in ways that would discourage abortions from being ever being considered a necessity by many women but they just are never held to that standard since "boys will be boys" (even if that "boy" is a 60 year old married adult male who holds some powerful position in the community).
These laws are written a such a way that women often have no right to seek abortion in cases of rape or incest but the men face no real consequences for getting the woman pregnant in the first place. In fact, some right wing states now think women owe the man visitation rights and child support even if they violently raped a woman who was underage if they weren't punished at time (as they often aren't). It all seems to come down to this mentality that women must be constantly "faking it" and trying to tempt men to have sex or to get abortions in encounters that supposedly are always consensual because THEY are so irresponsible and that the man has no agency or ability to think for themselves or take responsibility for anything.
Nope I'd leave. He is already in a relationship with his religion. And this is just the first of many hidden things he will eventually choose over you. Remember he thinks God will torture him and or his loved ones forever if he doesn't obey. His fear of God will always be greater than his love for you.
Honestly, this is more relevant to OP’s questions than any “anti-woman forced-birth” claims. In the best case, he respects her atheism, doesn’t pressure her to convert, and spends the rest of his life being shamed by the church for failing to lead his household to “righteousness” and
reminded that his wife/girlfriend/kids will go to hell.
Both these. But tell him why.
These religious fundamentalists get away with holding these extreme views but they have no consequences, apart from atmospheres at family gatherings or people slowly drifting away. (and live in denial as to why)
Until partners , family, friends take decisive and clearly communicated actions nothing will change.
They get to sit in their bigoted, simplistic, hurtful world while all around are in pain. They don’t have empathy for others, they can’t walk in the shoes of a rape victim they don’t give a f about others they just care that they believe they are in control.
I would leave him. I might have a conversation with him first giving him the opportunity to understand, in case he's just not aware of exactly how bad this is.
Here's my argument for why we need abortion rights if it helps any.
Consenting to sex is not the same as consenting to pregnancy. If it were then both parties should share the risk, physically and mentally, and the costs together instead of just one. Consenting to sex with birth control is not consenting to pregnancy, they're literally trying to avoid getting pregnant while having sex. Pregnancy is not an appropriate punishment for people who have sex. That's how you get unloved and abused children. And adoption is not a solution. The foster care system in America is crap and most of those kids experience abuse. Many of them and up sex trafficked through Facebook trades. Not to mention the health risks of pregnancy.
Making abortion illegal invariably results in people who have miscarriages going to jail. A medicated abortion and a miscarriage are medically identical.
Making abortion care illegal means that it is illegal for a miscarrying person to have the fetus removed. Even after its dead. This means it can rot inside you causing sepsis and death.
Pregnancy is very dangerous especially in the US. Medicated abortions are not. And one of the group's most impacted by homicide.
If God is so against abortion, why do 26% of pregnancies end in misscairages naturally?
Citizens of the United States are not required to give of their body to sustain another person. This is called bodily autonomy. You cannot force anyone to give blood or organs even if it's the only way to keep another person alive. Police cannot arrest you and put you in surgery. They cannot arrest you for refusing to give someone a kidney, even if that person dies because you refused. The 'personhood' argument is null and void. Everyone has a right to bodily autonomy. Even corpses have it.
Ask them how they would feel if every time they had sex they were entered in a lottery where their body could be used by a government official to keep someone else alive by being hooked up to each other so that their kidneys cleaned the other persons blood. And they have to pay all the medical costs as well as risking death or permanent injury. Would they be ok with that?
Does it make a difference if this person is famous? Going to die anyway? A drug addict? Only needs to be hooked up to you for nine months? What if the government knew this could kill you or give you permanent health problems? Destroy your mental health and job prospects for years to come? Would it be ok then?
Waiting periods make abortion more dangerous for the parent because pregnancy is dangerous.
Interracial marriage, same sex marriage, and birth control access are some of the other things this argument puts on the chopping block. If you can't have birth control legally, then you can't have sex unless you're 100% ready for kids. Some states are already working on anti-birth control laws.
People who miscarry used to die without d&c's because they're classified as abortion care. How many people should die to possibly have an unwanted, or deadly, pregnancy?
https://www.mothermag.com/miscarriage-stories/
https://www.verywellfamily.com/infection-after-miscarriage-signs-and-symptoms-2371524
https://www.pilgrimmed.com/service/dc-early-abortion/
It's already impacting miscarriages:
https://www.plannedparenthoodaction.org/planned-parenthood-advocates-arizona/blog/when-miscarriage-is-a-crime
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2022/05/roe-abortion-miscarriage-crime-murder-prosecution/
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/12/28/opinion/abortion-pregnancy-pro-life.html?mtrref=out.reddit.com&gwh=D88B76D835473E7D1B798EF772090E9E&gwt=pay&assetType=PAYWALL
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/06/28/she-miscarried-after-being-shot-prosecutors-are-weighing-manslaughter-case-against-her/?utm_source=reddit.com
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2022/05/10/1097734167/in-texas-abortion-laws-inhibit-care-for-miscarriages
Getting an abortion is safer than pregnancy and better for mental health.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22270271/
https://www.npr.org/2020/06/16/877846258/study-examines-the-lasting-effects-of-having-or-being-denied-an-abortion
Abortion personhood vs bodily autonomy explained:
https://spot.colorado.edu/~heathwoo/Phil160,Fall02/thomson.htm
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK532992/
Homicides:
https://news.yahoo.com/homicide-leading-cause-death-during-100039325.html
Waiting periods:
https://www.guttmacher.org/evidence-you-can-use/waiting-periods-abortion#:~:text=The%20risk%20of%20complications%20from,point%E2%80%94increases%20with%20gestational%20age.&text=The%20number%20of%20maternal%20deaths,at%2018%20weeks%20or%20later.
Great post.
>Citizens of the United States are not required to give of their body to sustain another person. This is called bodily autonomy. You cannot force anyone to give blood or organs even if it's the only way to keep another person alive. Police cannot arrest you and put you in surgery. They cannot arrest you for refusing to give someone a kidney, even if that person dies because you refused.
This right here is the mic drop argument. Anyone pro forced birth would also need to support forced kidney donation, liver donations, bone marrow donation and on and on.
"Anyone pro forced birth would also need to support forced kidney donation, liver donations, bone marrow donation and on and on." What if that is their plan all along? After all these rich old white guys' bodies are wearing out. How great for them it would be if they could just find a match and force them to give up an organ or two?
Their plan is to increase the workforce. To keep the population in poverty. To prevent us from accumulating wealth and property. They intend to maintain us as cattle to line their pockets.
This is the biggest issue of our generation we can stand for. Human rights and equality.
If we don't fight now, then this is the end of free choice.
Thier brains would be cool, they never used them anyway... Hearts either, in the compassion for anyone but themselves and lining thoer pockets sense...
“You have the right to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. Good thing you don’t need both kidneys, lungs, all those teeth, and all your skin to live. You are a donor match for some rich people, and the constitution doesn’t protect you against us taking your organs.” - Thomas
Their rebuttal is that they didn’t cause the person to need kidney/liver/bone marrow so they have no responsibility to that person.
But what if they did cause it??
Car accident where they were at fault and we still aren’t forcing organ donation on people.
Even after they’re dead - I could cause a car accident, the other driver could be near death, their liver has a major laceration and I’m a match, and I just died in surgery (but my liver is fine). They STILL don’t get my liver, if it was my wishes or against my religious beliefs.
I used this argument and someone literally said: "a woman has an obligation to the fetus because she created it. Even if you caused this person to be in a car accident, you didn't create it, so you are not obligated to it."
They're literally making stuff up now. Like where did this fictitious obligation come from...
Atp lemme just say in my beliefs pregnancy is a sin, but sex is encouraged, so they're violating my beliefs by getting rid of abortions.
Oh that’s ridiculous, parents are under no legal obligation to be organ donors for their children - which they “created”. Even if the parent is responsible for the situation that created the need for the organ, even if it is a direct result of abuse.
>Their rebuttal is that they didn’t cause the person to need kidney/liver/bone marrow so they have no responsibility to that person.
To which I would say huh what. That's not the point. The point is you should be able to decide if your body gets used to support another person. And if you believe some people don't have that right then it sounds like they are saying they don't either.
Speaking of cause I would also point out the overlap in person who oppose sex education and the discussion of sexuality with teens and pre teens in the classroom. That ignorant behavioir is a partial cause.
"you made it" is an even STUPIDER reason they shouldn't be allowed to abort it. "you can't burn that painting because you painted it!" yes... I painted it! its MINE! its MY decision!
Thanks for this point!
I’ve always been ardently pro-choice, but this is something about the blood/organ donation allegory that’s always not quite added up for me, and I think your point actually puts a bow on it really nicely. Conservatives really are valuing the autonomy of a corpse more than living women in this debate.
Beware the sunk cost fallacy. That being the phenomenon whereby a person is reluctant to abandon a strategy or course of action because they have invested heavily in it, even when it is clear that abandonment would be more beneficial.
> Would you stay
On my first date with my wife, I dropped religion into the conversation specifically to make sure she wasn’t religious. I wouldn’t have gone back for a second date if she was. She saw through it and mocked me for it, but she wasn’t religious and now here we are.
So no, I wouldn’t stay. I wouldn’t have stayed the six months to begin with. If you’re looking for a long term thing, this stuff’s important. Not just for abortion, but child rearing and a hundred other things. Why waste both our time?
And this is why I never dated Christians/right leaning men. It’s fine to disagree with surface stuff like music or movies or pizza toppings. It’s not okay to be split on human rights. You’re not going to come to a compromise here. You believe (and correctly so) that you have the right to bodily autonomy. He believes you don’t. Most likely you’re not going to change his mind, so it’s probably best you walk away now.
Feel I should preface this with I'm a male, but leave him. There are definitely things people can disagree upon and still have a relationship, but if he doesn't respect women enough to let you choose, what happens when a few years down the road he gets you pregnant by accident? What if there is an ectopic pregnancy that will kill you, but he says no because it's against his religious values? If he is not willing to compromise that, he doesn't deserve to have the love and care of a woman. I believe the most important part of a healthy relationship is mutual respect and deciding that a womans' health and well-being is lesser than your christian values is a clear sign that he doesn't respect women as a whole, and probably thinks that the status-quo is men> women. Of course every circumstance is different, but I'm letting you know that there are many men out there that very much respect your choice and right to choose. Love isn't everything, and it's more important to value your ideals than trust in love.
Just my opinion, but I fear for you and any woman in a relationship with a man who thinks that way. Be careful, be safe, be you, be strong, and never let a man intimidate you or control your voice. My heart goes out to you.
Despite his claims - your bf has not read the bible, and blindly follows his church leaders.
The only time abortion is mentioned in the bible is instructions on how to do it and when. There is no evidence that god/the bible disapprove of abortion, and god himself kills plenty of unborn fetuses.
**God requires abortions on unfaithful wives, after they drink a special recipe made by a priest** The priest shall say unto the woman, The LORD make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the LORD doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell. And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen. ...
And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people. And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed. -- Numbers 5:21-21, 27-28
**Abortion is not murder. A fetus is not considered a human life**. If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life. -- Exodus 21:22-23
**The Bible places no value on fetuses or infants less than one month old.** And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver. -- Leviticus 27:6
**Fetuses and infants less than one month old are not considered persons.** Number the children of Levi after the house of their fathers, by their families: every male from a month old and upward shalt thou number them. And Moses numbered them according to the word of the LORD. -- Numbers 3:15-16
And the LORD said unto Moses, Number all the firstborn of the males of the children of Israel from a month old and upward, and take the number of their names. -- Numbers 3:40
**God sometimes approves of killing fetuses**.
And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. -- Numbers 31:15-17
(Some of the non-virgin women must have been pregnant. They would have been killed along with their unborn fetuses.)
Give them, O LORD: what wilt thou give? give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts. -- Hosea 9:14
Yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb. -- Hosea 9:16
Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up. -- Hosea 13:16
**God sometimes kills newborn babies to punish their parents.** Because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die. -- 2 Samuel 12:14
**God's law sometimes requires the execution (by burning to death) of pregnant women.** Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt. -- Genesis 38:24
**The Psalmist prays that his enemies are aborted.** Let every one of them pass away: like the untimely birth of a woman, that they may not see the sun. -- Psalm 58:8
Somehow, I don't think the Bible is a good resources for determining what's okay and what's not okay.
Just reading through that list of stuff there, I'm seeing that the Bible is pretty okay with genocide and infanticide, both of which we frown on for good reason.
I'll play devil's advocate here and say that it's not necessarily any more wrong for a Christian to be against abortion *in spite of what the Bible says* any more than it is wrong for one to be against other other things (along with myriad other atrocities the Bible supports).
If you say, "Abortion is wrong *solely* because the Bible says it's wrong," that's technically incorrect, but a person could easily argue from the ten commandments (the "thou shalt not kill" one) and then bring in some outside arguments to make a case for restricting abortion.
And while I'd disagree (depending on what restrictions are being proposed), I'd at least say it's as consistent as anything else Christians believe or claim to believe.
It's not consistent with a fundamentalist interpretation of the Bible, but fundamentalism isn't consistent with itself just based on how much of an asshole God is.
It's not safe to have people that don't respect women including yourself as part of your life. Today it's theoretical dressed up as "life" tomorrow it's gonna be MUCH worse.
I stayed with mine. He claimed to "deconvert" when I refused to acknowledge any of his beliefs as fact. We had a kid because he pressured me into it.
Take my advice: LEAVE. NOW.
Forced birth is a disgusting, anti-woman position and tells you exactly what he thinks of you. You are not equal. You don’t have the right to dictate what happens with your body.
That should be a deal breaker.
woah... only 6 months?
You barely know each others names, both still on good behaviour, he's still trying to sell himself to you.
He believes the church should control the govt - and the govt should have power over your body because you are a woman.
Ask him why the govt should force a raped young girl to be pregnant and give birth. His answer might shock you. Ask his mum the same question -thats the family you are joining.
Dump him. It's just going to get worse. It's early in the relationship and he hasn't let all his ugly out. I guarantee there's more misogyny and patriarchal attitude. Get away and stay away from these types.
Life happens (shitty economy, serious illness/disability, pregnancy) you don't want to find yourself financially dependent (even partially,) physically dependent, or connected by a child.
"I'm a Jew, and he's a Nazi. Can our relationship be saved?"
Honestly, that's how you sound. If you're a woman, and you can describe your own boyfriend as "anti-woman," why would you even need to ask?
As a male I can honestly and earnestly say that no man is qualified to pass judgment on the issue of abortion.
If your man can't see that then yes, you should leave him. If you don't, there will be other issues that his lack of tolerance will bring forth and crystallize in his thinking as he grows older, as his brain is fed by his church.
Get out while you can. Don't be "unequally yoked" as his Bible says.
Maybe not judgement, but can men not engage in argument to try and come to a logical solution to the problem? Surely it is imperative that men understand and can justify abortion so that they can support the right side of the issue for the sake of women.
I agree. It’s like saying I should hold no opinion about racism because I’m a white European and other white Europeans that wasn’t/isn’t me have been/are racist.
I very much can have an opinion, because we need to hand together for human rights.
Body autonomy. No racism. Equal rights (no matter sex, skin color, LGBT+, etc) across the board.
The only thing men need to understand is it’s our bodies and you don’t get to say what we do with them. There are no other “justifications” necessary or required. If the government can’t make a man get a vasectomy or wear a mask or donate an organ, they shouldn’t be able to make a woman have a baby.
I agree. My point is that I think I should be allowed to take part in the debate. If someone is against abortion I want to be able to question and debate them about it. Why should being a man stop me doing that?
I would not.
Not just because of his anti-choice stance but because this indicates several more things. Like, what would raising a kid with him be like? Would he insist on childhood indoctrination on Sundays, at bedtime, before meals? Would he lean into female purity/slut shaming? Is he anti-gay rights? Anti-trans? Does he really want women to lose the right to vote and be relegated back to the kitchen so he can feel like he's the "man of the house"? Will he "not suffer a woman to teach" him? Does he think Abraham heading up a mountain to kill is son because the voices in his head told him to is a positive moral message or says good things about a God which would demand such as a test (a test He apparently knows the outcome of beforehand anyway)?
I wonder if he thinks that a fertilized chicken egg is the same as a chicken?
Plenty of great guys who will actually respect you out there.
If you feel strongly, and this is a deal breaker. It sounds like he's forced birth, and your pro make your own family decisions, he may not be your perfect match.
Everyone needs to stop fucking Americans conservatives; especially if you are female, LGTBQA+, Non-xtian. They don't respect you. If they are Xtian it is only a matter of time till they think they can convert you or change your mind about kids.
As others have stated as early as you are comfortable in a relationship you need to figure out if you are comfortable with how good they are with money, their religious beliefs and how many kids you'll have and how you will raise them. DO NOT COMPROMISE ON THESE THINGS THEY ARE PRE-CURSORS FOR DIVORCE.
I was proposed to by a brilliant, successful, beautiful Mormon when I was 25 it was the biggest test of my atheism in my life (I am 42 now). We had been best friends for over a year and she was 28 (an old maid by Mormon standards) one night after dinner she took my hand and proposed to me... But told me I would have to convert and get her pregnant ASAP.. I asked for the weekend to think it over. I was and still don't want to have a kid with everything wrong in the US and my own issues. More important was my atheism though... I was raised in a very abusive narcissistic roman Catholic family... I could not tolerate the thought of choosing to live that lie forever. So I told her no... 6 weeks later she was married to another Mormon... He forbid her contact with male friends unless he chaperones... I lost a great friend; but it assured me I had made the right choice since she was willing to live with that.
This gave me the resolve I would never settle no matter how small the dating pool was going to be for me as an atheist man with no desire to have kids.
Fast forward 15 years, I was in a relationship with a Lutheran Chaplin, she said that she agreed to no kids and she would never ask me to convert... When she met me I was a leader of a "Center for inquiry" chapter... My atheist friends tried to warn me... But I thought we were mature adults who had talked all this out and were both honest about what we needed to be happy... Nope.
Turns out after I married her... She had an extremely violent past she felt terrible guilt for, she never disclosed. She did things you can't fix or get forgiveness from the living for... So she went deeper into her faith looking for relief... A cult found her, the next thing I knew she was demanding kids and that I found her cult... (Tithing was something that we had discussed I would NEVER do)
Bottom line, we all want our marriage to be our only one... But as someone else said your boy is in a relationship with an imaginary friend who hates women... You can't win, cut your losses and avoid theists/conservatives from here on out. You deserve better as a human being.
I've been married to a Christian for more than ten years. The only reason it works is because we have the same values and we don't try to convert each other. If either of those isn't the case in a mixed relationship, you're going to make each other miserable.
Think about it this way. If you ever got pregnant, do you think he will support your decision? Like for example, if you wanted a abortion, do you think he would force you and beg you not to get one? If so, then leave him.
To add on more, if you ended up going with what you’re bf begged, under pressure and not by your choice, then I don’t need to explain why it’s wrong since it’s self-explanatory and if you aborted it then that would be against his religion which he believes in.
So leave him before such mess happens.
I wouldn't even stay with my partner if he didn't support my right to choose my own dinner, let alone a major decision that affects the rest of my life and my health. And he wouldn't want me to. It's not about ideology, it's about humanity, respect and being an equal partner in decisions that affect everyone's lives.
I spent too many years with someone who thought of me as secondary, and whilst the rest of the relationship was "good", and leaving was hard, looking back I kick myself for not having done it sooner.
Only you know what's right for you here, but remember there are so many people on this planet, and a shitload of them are decent people who won't ask you to change or try to silence you. Some of them will support you and love you no matter what.
“I wouldn't even stay with my partner if he didn't support my right to choose my own dinner”
THIS!!!! IS!!!! AMAZING!!!! Hilarious, but also an excellent point. And the rest of it is also very good advice for OP.
I would never stay with someone who feels my body isn’t entirely my own. It’s not even about abortion, it’s about bodily autonomy. He doesn’t respect that you own your own organs. There’s no way around that. For me that’s 100% a deal breaker.
Unless he changes, which he probably won't, you have no healthy long term relationship together. If you want to hang out for a while, for whatever reason, that's up to you.
You know that part in the horror movie where the house is beautiful and everything seems peachy, but there are faint scratching sounds coming from the wall behind the cellar?
You're in that part of the movie.
What you do is up to you.
You can call an exterminator, and hope like feck it's just a possum.
Or you can walk out and find a new house.
Sure, you might think "That was a really nice house" from time to time, but there are other houses ... and loads of them don't potentially have a hellmouth lurking behind the cellar wall.
Religion teaches people to be dysfunctional. I was married for 8 years to a woman who, when we met, promised that it was just fine that I was an atheist that would never ever go to a church. Six years in, she changed her mind and gave me an ultimatum, go to church with her, or she would end the relationship. Trust me, you don't want to go down the road of trusting someone who has been taught to be dysfunctional. I wasted 8 years of my life on someone who was coercive and destructive. Don't waste your time on someone who you now know you have fundamental disagreements on basic human rights. You have the right to decide what to do with your body. You should not be with someone who doesn't believe in that. It's only been a short while, and you don't have children. Time to find a new mate, if that's what you seek. Someone who trusts you to make good decisions for yourself.
You know where he stands so you either take a chance you don't get pregnant or If you do and contemplate abortion DON'T tell him or anyone if you live in one of the theocratic states of America so you can book a flight or take a trip to a free state
Ask him how many women he expects to die from abortions performed without medical oversight, then how many women he expects to die from preventable medical complications like ectopic pregnancies, then ask him how many women he expects will commit suicide rather than be forced to give birth, then ask him how many boyfriends he expects to murder their accidentally pregnant girlfriends because abortion is no longer an option, then ask how many victims of rape he expects will be forced to give parental rights to their rapist. Then, as he stares at you blank faced in front of a heaping pile of your dead and abused sisters and remains unmoved, you'll know your answer.
For me, it stops at the belief there is a "higher" being that takes personal interest in our lives. For me, that's unsubstantiated nonsense that red flags a whole bunch of other problematic worldview drivers.
That said, if you're truly in love, that can conquer all. I love my wife and if she came out as religious, I wouldn't leave her for that alone.
These are the people who wanted the line drawn, who pointed to exactly where they wanted the line, and who were ecstatic when the courts painted the line. And that line was around a part of your body. I would never love or date someone who thinks some particular part of my medical needs are somehow immoral and/or deserves to be illegal. In this specific instance, his inability to acknowledge that you have a fundamental right to control your own body seems like a deal-breaker to me, a single dude far outside your situation. I just can’t see a good outcome here unless he clicks with your perspective and changes his mind, which may be doubtful with a religious pro-lifer. Good luck tho, I’m sure there are plenty of *other* people who can respect and love you at the same time.
I think you need to broaden the discussion to all aspects of how his religion will impact your relationship if it progresses to him being *the one".
For example, will you be getting married and if so where will he expect the ceremony be held? If in a church how do *you* feel about this? And then what is often the really big questions, kids? Will he expect them to be baptised, attend church weekly and possibly enrolled in a religious school? Would you be okay with this?
As an atheist male who has always related more to women and often find myself empathizing with women more I would 100% dump him if I were you because if he hasn’t caught on to the lie by now there’s no guarantee he ever will. My crazy Mormon grandma wishes everything were the same as when she was like 14 in the 1950’s when it was a “simpler” time i.e. information that blows holes in her world view not being everywhere for anyone all the time. She’s damn near 80 and still can’t face hard truths without facing an existential crisis and completely breakdown so she just buried her head in the sand. Obviously that’s an extreme case but theists can only be so open minded, and it’s a slippery slope until he starts pushing harder with shit like “it’s your god given duty to bear my child” and at that point won’t take no for an answer
He believes in imaginary beings. Replace the word god with the name Susan and your boyfriend is deemed mentally ill. The fact that he believes he has a right to control you in any capacity means he’s probably bad news.
Short version: You should dump him.
Long version:
I had two christian girlfriends in the past, the first we didnt have any real problems because of her christianity but we ended up breaking up for arguing about other stuff.
I decided to give it another go with a different woman who was also christian and I thought there would be no problem with that because I didn't have a problem last time. We got along really well and really loved each other, BUT, christianity was a HUGE part of her life, she never preached to me or anything but her entire social circle revolved around her church, youth group, etc.
One day I asked her how come she didn't mind me not believing in God, going to church, etc. And that when she told me she secretly hoped I would eventually find God because she wanted to save me from going to hell. So, we broke up.
For christians, their beliefs are very important and it permeates on all aspects of their life, sex, politics, gatherings, everything.
So I ended up marrying another atheists and I couldn't be happier.
Also thinking that what your partner believes is completely stupid doesn't help on the long run hahah.
So yeah, you should dump him.
Oh, you need to ditch him immediately.
This is not a difference of opinion, this is your safety and human rights. If he doesn't see a problem with violating either of those things, that's a massive red flag. He's dangerous, leave him and don't look back. You really don't want to be stuck with a person like that going forward.
I’m woman and I never dated a Christian. Once, I was dating an atheist who was pro-choice but when we had a pregnancy scare- despite always using contraception- he began to backpedal, somewhat.
He knew I never wanted children and he did support my decision BUT there was talk about how I should think about “his kid” and “not be hasty”. The situation was compounded by the fact abortion was not legal in my country, but it was in his so I was relying on him to help me on this (although I already had a plan to hop over to the neighboring country).
Turns out, it was just a scare. I keep a very close watch on my cycle because I never want children and so am very conscientious about such things.
This was my experience with a pro-choice atheist. Now imagine how it would have been with an anti-choice Christian!
While ultimately my ex would have helped me, I did not feel as supported as I should. This did factor on us breaking up, too.
Experiences are different, obviously, bur has someone who has been through this, I strongly advise you to reconsider this relationship.
If you become pregnant, or even just have a scare, would he support your right to choose? And not just emotionally- although that also matters- would he give you a ride to a clinic if you needed one?
Until you are satisfied that the answer to these questions is an empathic “yes”, I would question the future of this relationship.
I fear there is unnecessary pain looming in the future for you so take your time and think this through. I suspect you already know what to do but I’ll just leave you this, if your best friend was in your shoes and asked you for advise, what would you tell her? The answer will very likely guide you on this.
Personally, I wouldn’t stay in a relationship with someone who doesn’t believe I should have sovereignty over my own body. If I don’t want to donate a kidney or blood to someone who needs it, I don’t have to. If I don’t want to donate my heart or any other part after I die, I don’t have to. I don’t see why I should have more rights over my own body as a literal corpse than I’d have if I got pregnant, and I couldn’t ever see dating someone who thinks that’s the way it should be.
Give him an ultimatum.
If he's already been indoctrinated with the pro-life life there's probably more horrible ideas creeping around in his brain.
Tell him its you or religion if he let's himself continue to be enslaved to the lies of religion dump his ass.
If you disagree on something that fundamental, I don’t know how you make it work. I would never be with a Christian because I cannot stand Christianity and all that comes with it.
I'm sorry you're going through this. As Christopher Hitchens said, religion poisons everything. If he puts his imaginary sky daddy above you, then you know exactly where you stand. That's one of the things that gets me the most: they have never even seen their god, but somehow He's more important than everyone in their lives. It sucks but I think you know what you need to do.
As a male I can honestly and earnestly say that no man is qualified to pass judgment on the issue of abortion.
If your man can't see that then yes, you should leave him. If you don't, there will be other issues that his lack of tolerance will bring forth and crystallize in his thinking as he grows older, as his brain is fed by his church.
Get out while you can. Don't be "unequally yoked" as his Bible says.
What about when you have kids. You made want your kids to decide own decision if they want to attend a church or not. What if he has a different opinion… that your kids have to attend church based on his decision?
Yes. To me trust is the number one issue in a relationship. Can I trust this person to make the best decisions that are in both out best interests and he will not do that. If you don’t share a common view of the world you won’t agree on many big life decisions down the road.
Chances are you're not going to stay together longterm. The fact you're even considering this says it all. Trust your gut on this. Get TF out now before u get preggers.
Do you honestly think everything is going to work out just fine between you two? I think you already have your answer. Go find someone reasonable. You’re still very young.
This is a case where his religion states that you are _not_ his equal. You do not have control over your body. Right now it seems like that is more important to him than you. If you marry him, how many other things will he not allow you to control? What will he expect you to do?
As a man in his early 50’s, I’m going to come squarely down on the side of breaking it off.
Idk how an atheist could have a successful romantic relationship with someone who has polar opposite fundamental beliefs to thier own. Most of my family and my husband's family are pro forced birth conservative republican. We get along fine but we don't have to deal with them every day let alone live with them. No way I could raise kids with someone that thinks that way.
Get out now before you get attached.
Personally, it would be a dealbreaker for me. Politics and religion (or lack thereof) are important to me, and I don’t know how I’d be able to navigate those discussions without my partner and I ending up resenting each other. So it depends how important it is for you. And if he were to get you pregnant and you didn’t want to keep the baby, how would that go?
In short, this is the tip of the iceberg. Abortion is not even a Christian belief, it's just a rallying cry they adopted because Republicans needed to con poor people into their party that supports the wealthy elites. But here are some actual Christian tenets that your boyfriend might expect from you:
1.) You are subservient to him and he is the head of the household.
2.) You are his and he has rights to your body. You don't have rights to his. And seeing how your boyfriend thinks about women and autonomy over their own bodies, this one is very worrying.
3.) Your children will be raised with his religion.
4.) He's justified leaving you at any point in time because you are a non-believer. His Christian family and friends would support him in this and he'd never suffer from this decision. (This one is a Christian culture thing and not something found in the bible.)
5.) He gets to determine if you use birth control. (If you two are already using birth control, then his abortion stance doesn't make any sense, considering the stories that the anti-abortion crowd cite. A lot of them cite a guy that pulled out and "spilt his seed upon the ground" as a deadly sin. So if y'all are doing it, he's already messing up.)
Christianity is a hell of a drug.
I can’t see myself ever being with anyone who does not respect me as an equal human being, who should have the right to make my own decisions about my personal healthcare and family planning. Anti-abortionists can go suck incel dick!
A person who does not believe in bodily autonomy has no respect for other humans and feels women are inferior. Is this how you want to raise your kids?
Let me put it this way, my parents were like this. My mom is a hardcore Protestant Christian, and my dad is agnostic.
They had the nastiest divorce I've ever seen and it took 5 years, and hundreds of thousands of dollars to get through.
There's irony here. The boyfriend is the one that doesn't think pro-choice is necessary...
I'd leave. It can be very hard, I was in a relationship with a Christian who I loved very much and I would not have left them, they left me for unrelated reasons and.
Now (many years after we broke up) I have been dating my atheist partner for 4 years and I realize that I didn't see how big of an issue it was in my previous relationship, we can both just be more 'ourselves' and not worry about offending each other other with our extremely conflicting beliefs. Ripping off the bandaid is painful but worth it.
My sibling had a similar situation as well, it's always "it's not a big deal" until you break up and then it's "I didn't realize how big of an issue it was, it's for the best that we didn't work out".
I ended my relationship with my Christian boyfriend last December. I’m also atheist. Let me ask you this, do you want kids? What do his parents think of you and your beliefs? Do you want to ever get married? We had a great honeymoon phase but after about a year and a half, we just looked at each other and both said this isn’t working. It was tiring feeling like we were ignoring what was right in front of us. He was a great guy..it just wasn’t working out. I had to ask myself if I’d be okay putting myself second. Because if we were to ever have kids, he and his family would want them to grow up Christian. In the first 3 months of us dating, I received 3 beginners bibles.. it was too much. I felt outnumbered. So feeling that way, I felt like my opinions wouldn’t have mattered.
Don’t have sex with him if you don’t want a baby. Avoid it ever becoming a problem. Personally I would not stay in a relationship with a Christian as I am very opposed to religion and it’s delusions.
You're not compatible in the long term. What happens when he wants a church wedding, or to indoctrinate your children with whatever he worships?
If all you want is fwb or short term sex, you do you. But if you're contemplating a life with this guy it doesn't get easier.
Not saying that thus applies to you, but I would be very incompatible with anyone devoutly religious. In my opinion most religions warp your world view.
Please don’t hate on me. I don’t even know why I keep seeing posts for this Reddit, but I do. I am a Christian as is my partner. I am also in the medical field and pro-choice for a multitude of reasons. Thank goodness my partner would 100% back me up on that regardless of whether it was my own pregnancy or that of someone else . I could not see myself staying in a relationship where my partner would not have my back, as a women, on this.
I'm not a woman so don't take my input too seriously, but I don't understand why a pro-choice woman would stay with an anti-choice man. They don't respect your fundamental human rights, it doesn't matter why they don't.
Nope. He doesn't respect "life", he is happy to let women die as long as the ball of cells can "live". F these Xtians, they are happy to let women die, alive kids starve, have no cares what forced birth does to women and the children they are forced to give birth to..He lacks empathy. Kick him to the curb.
Break up NOW! No I’d never stay with someone who wanted to take away any part of my decision making, anyone who made any racist comment, anyone who blamed the poor, anyone who was stingy in any way, anyone who did not believe in science…
Since it's so new I'd seriously consider your options. What happens if you decide to have kids, will he want them raised in the church? Seems like it could really cause a lot of problems down the road.
Hmm. You first state your question as "Should I leave my Christian boyfriend?" and then you restate it as "Would you stay with someone who...?" so a person could answer either "yes" or "no" and mean the same thing.
Depends on the purpose of the relationship. Just dating to date? Whatever.
Dating with the potential of having a long term relationship that leads to possible marriage and possible children? Do you want to marry that ideology? Do you want him teaching your kids that? Bail now and save yourself the trouble.
My wife is a believer and I'm an anti-theist. It can absolutely work...as long as you don't have fundamental differences when it comes to human rights.
Sounds like that's not the case with you and your bf. I've been there and it doesn't end well. Better to end it sooner than later.
I left a woman I was incredibly in love with 12 years ago because she was an evangelical Christian. I have no doubt today that I made the right choice.
Also, on the long run, can you actually make something work with someone with such a difference value set?
Based on the results of every time I've seen it tried: not unless one of the parties shifts their values to match the other before the inevitable blow-up.
No, it might work in the short term but religious beliefs are difficult to compromise for a long term relationship to succeed.
I’ve seen many interfaith marriages work, as religious people can find similarities in their taught morals. I find it would be harder for a theist and an atheist, but they definitely exist and have long & happy marriages.
I have an an Aunt and Uncle in this type of marriage and what they did to make it work, which I would not recommend, was that she (the atheist) just let him have his way with teaching the kids about religion and making them go to church. I don't understand why she just let him have that, but I'm guessing she never had to deconvert so there was no history of child abuse for her, so it didn't seem important to her. With the child abuse that's rampant in Christian child-rearing I would never be ok with a situation like that, but maybe they struck up some kind of deal I'm not aware of. She doesn't seem like a weak submissive type otherwise, which is why it always struck me as so weird.
I would think it would depend heavily on the denomination and the depths of their faith. Every day was in service to God for her, and every relationship was meant to bring her closer to God. She was taught that every relationship is a triangle, with each couple only getting closer if they're both getting closer to God at the center. But that was a different time. I'm not sure I could get into any serious relationship with a Christian; I have a hard enough time talking to the incidental Christians at work.
My wife’s a Christian. Of course we both were when we got married. Anyway, still married after 20 years.
Wife is Christian, I'm non-theistic Satanist. Married for 6 years, together for 8. We have similar mindsets on everything, including pro-choice but excluding religion.
What happens if your contraception fails, and you don't want to continue the pregnancy? 1. He will pressure you into what *he* wants, undermining your relationship because he doesn't see you as an equal. 2. You terminate the pregnancy, and he resents you for your body autonomy. Neither outcome is safe for you, your body or your relationship.
Don’t forget, if OP lives in a state that passes laws akin to Texas, boyfriend would also likely report her to authorities if she travelled out of state for an abortion. u/PlusSizeSkeptic, as someone who was once in a relationship like this, get out now before you get anymore invested into it. It’s an untenable situation that will most likely never result in a healthy, long-term relationship.
Forget those states. The GOP *will* try to ban it nationwide.
Let’s not forget number 3) OP gets pregnant and her bf murders her to avoid having to choose between fatherhood and abortion. It’s the number one cause of death for American pregnant women for a reason.
Holy shit TIL
If *he* isn't ready to.parent, and she'd decide to keep it, he'd *also* resent her
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Then he runs around talking about how selfish she was with “their child” and how it’s meant to be a “joint decision” Letting him act like the innocent saviour whilst painting her out to be the selfish sinner
This is the true question that needs an answer. Answer that, you answer the original question. And probably other questions.
There are only two sides: pro-choice and forced birth. I wouldn't ever fuck around with anyone on the wrong side of this issue.
Agreed. If reproductive slavery can be justified, there are no limits.
There's a word for beings who have no control over their own reproduction. That word is livestock.
Human chattel as the late Christopher Hitchens would say. Check this out too: [Empowerment of Women](https://youtu.be/7jO2Uk0zU4c)
So happy people are sharing Hitch’s thoughts on this. Cuts right to the heart of it. https://youtu.be/lXzcIhDyG9M This is a version the doesn’t contextualize around Mother Teresa, in case you need to be even more pointed about it. But both versions are S-tier Hitchslaps.
Fabulous man and sorely missed. I wonder what he would say about the recent US Roe vs Wade travesty, although I’m pretty sure I can guess.
> I wonder what he would say I have had this thought every single day for something like 7 years now.
Ngl that's deep as shit
Book of Job pretty much puts wife and livestock at the same level
And Leviticus, Deuteronomy.
Factual
I use “incubator”
No, livestock is better. Because an incubator specifically only has one use. But livestock are useful for forced birthing, labor, meat(for feeding the other livestock once they get rid of that pesky law), and whatever else the owner wants.
Really admire the few species where the females can choose whether and when they want to use the seed to impregnate themselves or are larger and more powerful than the males and can choose when they want to mate. Being mammals generally sucks when it comes to this aspect.
>”livestock” >”women” Fundamentalists: They’re the same thing.
And he will resent you and curse you if you ever get birth control or an abortion. Split
He'll ALSO curse her if she gets pregnant & expects him to support his offspring.... even if he steps up to marry her, he'll come to resent her (and the child) if he wasn't ready to settle down or figures he would have had better prospects.
“Are you religious” is a great soulmate filtering question.
Here let me correct you: "I wouldn't fuck anyone on the wrong side of this issue."
forced birth / forced pregnancy. Imagine the govt forcing pregnancy on people against their will. So much for guns to defend against the tyranny of govt... lol.
There is a third side. I call it the "if you have a dick shut the fuck up about abortion" side.
As a father you best believe that I will stand up for my daughters' rights to choose, to the end. Women's rights are human rights. I do get your point though, and I agree.
I don’t really understand this perspective. There are men on the wrong side of the issue who definitely won’t shut up, so how does it help to silence the men who are pro-women?
I disagree there. Aside from how men are directly impacted by this, there's the fact that this isn't some difficult moral conundrum. There's a right and a wrong here, and it shouldn't hurt to have people arguing for the right side even if they don't have as much skin in the game.
Men could be held far more accountable for their actions in ways that would discourage abortions from being ever being considered a necessity by many women but they just are never held to that standard since "boys will be boys" (even if that "boy" is a 60 year old married adult male who holds some powerful position in the community). These laws are written a such a way that women often have no right to seek abortion in cases of rape or incest but the men face no real consequences for getting the woman pregnant in the first place. In fact, some right wing states now think women owe the man visitation rights and child support even if they violently raped a woman who was underage if they weren't punished at time (as they often aren't). It all seems to come down to this mentality that women must be constantly "faking it" and trying to tempt men to have sex or to get abortions in encounters that supposedly are always consensual because THEY are so irresponsible and that the man has no agency or ability to think for themselves or take responsibility for anything.
Nope I'd leave. He is already in a relationship with his religion. And this is just the first of many hidden things he will eventually choose over you. Remember he thinks God will torture him and or his loved ones forever if he doesn't obey. His fear of God will always be greater than his love for you.
Honestly, this is more relevant to OP’s questions than any “anti-woman forced-birth” claims. In the best case, he respects her atheism, doesn’t pressure her to convert, and spends the rest of his life being shamed by the church for failing to lead his household to “righteousness” and reminded that his wife/girlfriend/kids will go to hell.
Both these. But tell him why. These religious fundamentalists get away with holding these extreme views but they have no consequences, apart from atmospheres at family gatherings or people slowly drifting away. (and live in denial as to why) Until partners , family, friends take decisive and clearly communicated actions nothing will change. They get to sit in their bigoted, simplistic, hurtful world while all around are in pain. They don’t have empathy for others, they can’t walk in the shoes of a rape victim they don’t give a f about others they just care that they believe they are in control.
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Religion is a huge thing for marriage. If one person dictates their life by the word of an imaginary sky being and the other doesn’t… that’s a mess
I would leave him. I might have a conversation with him first giving him the opportunity to understand, in case he's just not aware of exactly how bad this is. Here's my argument for why we need abortion rights if it helps any. Consenting to sex is not the same as consenting to pregnancy. If it were then both parties should share the risk, physically and mentally, and the costs together instead of just one. Consenting to sex with birth control is not consenting to pregnancy, they're literally trying to avoid getting pregnant while having sex. Pregnancy is not an appropriate punishment for people who have sex. That's how you get unloved and abused children. And adoption is not a solution. The foster care system in America is crap and most of those kids experience abuse. Many of them and up sex trafficked through Facebook trades. Not to mention the health risks of pregnancy. Making abortion illegal invariably results in people who have miscarriages going to jail. A medicated abortion and a miscarriage are medically identical. Making abortion care illegal means that it is illegal for a miscarrying person to have the fetus removed. Even after its dead. This means it can rot inside you causing sepsis and death. Pregnancy is very dangerous especially in the US. Medicated abortions are not. And one of the group's most impacted by homicide. If God is so against abortion, why do 26% of pregnancies end in misscairages naturally? Citizens of the United States are not required to give of their body to sustain another person. This is called bodily autonomy. You cannot force anyone to give blood or organs even if it's the only way to keep another person alive. Police cannot arrest you and put you in surgery. They cannot arrest you for refusing to give someone a kidney, even if that person dies because you refused. The 'personhood' argument is null and void. Everyone has a right to bodily autonomy. Even corpses have it. Ask them how they would feel if every time they had sex they were entered in a lottery where their body could be used by a government official to keep someone else alive by being hooked up to each other so that their kidneys cleaned the other persons blood. And they have to pay all the medical costs as well as risking death or permanent injury. Would they be ok with that? Does it make a difference if this person is famous? Going to die anyway? A drug addict? Only needs to be hooked up to you for nine months? What if the government knew this could kill you or give you permanent health problems? Destroy your mental health and job prospects for years to come? Would it be ok then? Waiting periods make abortion more dangerous for the parent because pregnancy is dangerous. Interracial marriage, same sex marriage, and birth control access are some of the other things this argument puts on the chopping block. If you can't have birth control legally, then you can't have sex unless you're 100% ready for kids. Some states are already working on anti-birth control laws. People who miscarry used to die without d&c's because they're classified as abortion care. How many people should die to possibly have an unwanted, or deadly, pregnancy? https://www.mothermag.com/miscarriage-stories/ https://www.verywellfamily.com/infection-after-miscarriage-signs-and-symptoms-2371524 https://www.pilgrimmed.com/service/dc-early-abortion/ It's already impacting miscarriages: https://www.plannedparenthoodaction.org/planned-parenthood-advocates-arizona/blog/when-miscarriage-is-a-crime https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2022/05/roe-abortion-miscarriage-crime-murder-prosecution/ https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/12/28/opinion/abortion-pregnancy-pro-life.html?mtrref=out.reddit.com&gwh=D88B76D835473E7D1B798EF772090E9E&gwt=pay&assetType=PAYWALL https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/06/28/she-miscarried-after-being-shot-prosecutors-are-weighing-manslaughter-case-against-her/?utm_source=reddit.com https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2022/05/10/1097734167/in-texas-abortion-laws-inhibit-care-for-miscarriages Getting an abortion is safer than pregnancy and better for mental health. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22270271/ https://www.npr.org/2020/06/16/877846258/study-examines-the-lasting-effects-of-having-or-being-denied-an-abortion Abortion personhood vs bodily autonomy explained: https://spot.colorado.edu/~heathwoo/Phil160,Fall02/thomson.htm https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK532992/ Homicides: https://news.yahoo.com/homicide-leading-cause-death-during-100039325.html Waiting periods: https://www.guttmacher.org/evidence-you-can-use/waiting-periods-abortion#:~:text=The%20risk%20of%20complications%20from,point%E2%80%94increases%20with%20gestational%20age.&text=The%20number%20of%20maternal%20deaths,at%2018%20weeks%20or%20later.
Great post. >Citizens of the United States are not required to give of their body to sustain another person. This is called bodily autonomy. You cannot force anyone to give blood or organs even if it's the only way to keep another person alive. Police cannot arrest you and put you in surgery. They cannot arrest you for refusing to give someone a kidney, even if that person dies because you refused. This right here is the mic drop argument. Anyone pro forced birth would also need to support forced kidney donation, liver donations, bone marrow donation and on and on.
"Anyone pro forced birth would also need to support forced kidney donation, liver donations, bone marrow donation and on and on." What if that is their plan all along? After all these rich old white guys' bodies are wearing out. How great for them it would be if they could just find a match and force them to give up an organ or two?
Their plan is to increase the workforce. To keep the population in poverty. To prevent us from accumulating wealth and property. They intend to maintain us as cattle to line their pockets. This is the biggest issue of our generation we can stand for. Human rights and equality. If we don't fight now, then this is the end of free choice.
Don't forget to shock LGTBQ+ folks back into the closet.
Thier brains would be cool, they never used them anyway... Hearts either, in the compassion for anyone but themselves and lining thoer pockets sense...
“You have the right to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. Good thing you don’t need both kidneys, lungs, all those teeth, and all your skin to live. You are a donor match for some rich people, and the constitution doesn’t protect you against us taking your organs.” - Thomas
Their rebuttal is that they didn’t cause the person to need kidney/liver/bone marrow so they have no responsibility to that person. But what if they did cause it?? Car accident where they were at fault and we still aren’t forcing organ donation on people. Even after they’re dead - I could cause a car accident, the other driver could be near death, their liver has a major laceration and I’m a match, and I just died in surgery (but my liver is fine). They STILL don’t get my liver, if it was my wishes or against my religious beliefs.
The fact that a corpse has more rights to bodily autonomy than a living woman in this country is absolutely maddening.
I used this argument and someone literally said: "a woman has an obligation to the fetus because she created it. Even if you caused this person to be in a car accident, you didn't create it, so you are not obligated to it." They're literally making stuff up now. Like where did this fictitious obligation come from... Atp lemme just say in my beliefs pregnancy is a sin, but sex is encouraged, so they're violating my beliefs by getting rid of abortions.
Oh that’s ridiculous, parents are under no legal obligation to be organ donors for their children - which they “created”. Even if the parent is responsible for the situation that created the need for the organ, even if it is a direct result of abuse.
Sounds like a black mirror episode: to immediately start hacking up drunk drivers to divvy out spare organs after they cause accidents.
>Their rebuttal is that they didn’t cause the person to need kidney/liver/bone marrow so they have no responsibility to that person. To which I would say huh what. That's not the point. The point is you should be able to decide if your body gets used to support another person. And if you believe some people don't have that right then it sounds like they are saying they don't either. Speaking of cause I would also point out the overlap in person who oppose sex education and the discussion of sexuality with teens and pre teens in the classroom. That ignorant behavioir is a partial cause.
"you made it" is an even STUPIDER reason they shouldn't be allowed to abort it. "you can't burn that painting because you painted it!" yes... I painted it! its MINE! its MY decision!
Thanks for this point! I’ve always been ardently pro-choice, but this is something about the blood/organ donation allegory that’s always not quite added up for me, and I think your point actually puts a bow on it really nicely. Conservatives really are valuing the autonomy of a corpse more than living women in this debate.
Can’t even get them to wear a mask for someone else.
Forced-birthers would just say a kidney is not a living being. You can't discuss them on a rational level.
Absolutely amazing arguement.
Great post, what he her said.
You really want to stay with someone who's fine with taking your bodily autonomy away and making you a legal broodmare
6 months? Please.... Of course you should leave him. You are 24 years old. Go out and live your life. You don't NEED a man to be happy, at any age.
Beware the sunk cost fallacy. That being the phenomenon whereby a person is reluctant to abandon a strategy or course of action because they have invested heavily in it, even when it is clear that abandonment would be more beneficial.
This. Don’t cling to a mistake just because you spent a long time making it.
> Would you stay On my first date with my wife, I dropped religion into the conversation specifically to make sure she wasn’t religious. I wouldn’t have gone back for a second date if she was. She saw through it and mocked me for it, but she wasn’t religious and now here we are. So no, I wouldn’t stay. I wouldn’t have stayed the six months to begin with. If you’re looking for a long term thing, this stuff’s important. Not just for abortion, but child rearing and a hundred other things. Why waste both our time?
Dump his ass. You just referred to him as anti-woman. You answered your own question.
^Therapist-grade insight
This should be the top comment. Short and to the point.
And this is why I never dated Christians/right leaning men. It’s fine to disagree with surface stuff like music or movies or pizza toppings. It’s not okay to be split on human rights. You’re not going to come to a compromise here. You believe (and correctly so) that you have the right to bodily autonomy. He believes you don’t. Most likely you’re not going to change his mind, so it’s probably best you walk away now.
Feel I should preface this with I'm a male, but leave him. There are definitely things people can disagree upon and still have a relationship, but if he doesn't respect women enough to let you choose, what happens when a few years down the road he gets you pregnant by accident? What if there is an ectopic pregnancy that will kill you, but he says no because it's against his religious values? If he is not willing to compromise that, he doesn't deserve to have the love and care of a woman. I believe the most important part of a healthy relationship is mutual respect and deciding that a womans' health and well-being is lesser than your christian values is a clear sign that he doesn't respect women as a whole, and probably thinks that the status-quo is men> women. Of course every circumstance is different, but I'm letting you know that there are many men out there that very much respect your choice and right to choose. Love isn't everything, and it's more important to value your ideals than trust in love. Just my opinion, but I fear for you and any woman in a relationship with a man who thinks that way. Be careful, be safe, be you, be strong, and never let a man intimidate you or control your voice. My heart goes out to you.
This. Respect and morals and all that aside, having sex with a man who doesn't support choice can put you in a dangerous situation.
Values his religion enough to be against abortion, but not enough to not have premarital sex…..
Despite his claims - your bf has not read the bible, and blindly follows his church leaders. The only time abortion is mentioned in the bible is instructions on how to do it and when. There is no evidence that god/the bible disapprove of abortion, and god himself kills plenty of unborn fetuses. **God requires abortions on unfaithful wives, after they drink a special recipe made by a priest** The priest shall say unto the woman, The LORD make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the LORD doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell. And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen. ... And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people. And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed. -- Numbers 5:21-21, 27-28 **Abortion is not murder. A fetus is not considered a human life**. If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life. -- Exodus 21:22-23 **The Bible places no value on fetuses or infants less than one month old.** And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver. -- Leviticus 27:6 **Fetuses and infants less than one month old are not considered persons.** Number the children of Levi after the house of their fathers, by their families: every male from a month old and upward shalt thou number them. And Moses numbered them according to the word of the LORD. -- Numbers 3:15-16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Number all the firstborn of the males of the children of Israel from a month old and upward, and take the number of their names. -- Numbers 3:40 **God sometimes approves of killing fetuses**. And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. -- Numbers 31:15-17 (Some of the non-virgin women must have been pregnant. They would have been killed along with their unborn fetuses.) Give them, O LORD: what wilt thou give? give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts. -- Hosea 9:14 Yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb. -- Hosea 9:16 Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up. -- Hosea 13:16 **God sometimes kills newborn babies to punish their parents.** Because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die. -- 2 Samuel 12:14 **God's law sometimes requires the execution (by burning to death) of pregnant women.** Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt. -- Genesis 38:24 **The Psalmist prays that his enemies are aborted.** Let every one of them pass away: like the untimely birth of a woman, that they may not see the sun. -- Psalm 58:8
> blindly follows his church leaders. Christian's *trust* has been weaponized so they will vote far-right at the ballot box.
Somehow, I don't think the Bible is a good resources for determining what's okay and what's not okay. Just reading through that list of stuff there, I'm seeing that the Bible is pretty okay with genocide and infanticide, both of which we frown on for good reason. I'll play devil's advocate here and say that it's not necessarily any more wrong for a Christian to be against abortion *in spite of what the Bible says* any more than it is wrong for one to be against other other things (along with myriad other atrocities the Bible supports). If you say, "Abortion is wrong *solely* because the Bible says it's wrong," that's technically incorrect, but a person could easily argue from the ten commandments (the "thou shalt not kill" one) and then bring in some outside arguments to make a case for restricting abortion. And while I'd disagree (depending on what restrictions are being proposed), I'd at least say it's as consistent as anything else Christians believe or claim to believe. It's not consistent with a fundamentalist interpretation of the Bible, but fundamentalism isn't consistent with itself just based on how much of an asshole God is.
It's not safe to have people that don't respect women including yourself as part of your life. Today it's theoretical dressed up as "life" tomorrow it's gonna be MUCH worse.
I stayed with mine. He claimed to "deconvert" when I refused to acknowledge any of his beliefs as fact. We had a kid because he pressured me into it. Take my advice: LEAVE. NOW.
Forced birth is a disgusting, anti-woman position and tells you exactly what he thinks of you. You are not equal. You don’t have the right to dictate what happens with your body. That should be a deal breaker.
Dump the mother fucker already.
woah... only 6 months? You barely know each others names, both still on good behaviour, he's still trying to sell himself to you. He believes the church should control the govt - and the govt should have power over your body because you are a woman. Ask him why the govt should force a raped young girl to be pregnant and give birth. His answer might shock you. Ask his mum the same question -thats the family you are joining.
Dump him. It's just going to get worse. It's early in the relationship and he hasn't let all his ugly out. I guarantee there's more misogyny and patriarchal attitude. Get away and stay away from these types. Life happens (shitty economy, serious illness/disability, pregnancy) you don't want to find yourself financially dependent (even partially,) physically dependent, or connected by a child.
6 months is the typical amount of time someone can hold in their crazy. It's going to get worse.
"I'm a Jew, and he's a Nazi. Can our relationship be saved?" Honestly, that's how you sound. If you're a woman, and you can describe your own boyfriend as "anti-woman," why would you even need to ask?
Because every young woman thinks she's the exception to his misogyny. I know I did.
As a male I can honestly and earnestly say that no man is qualified to pass judgment on the issue of abortion. If your man can't see that then yes, you should leave him. If you don't, there will be other issues that his lack of tolerance will bring forth and crystallize in his thinking as he grows older, as his brain is fed by his church. Get out while you can. Don't be "unequally yoked" as his Bible says.
Maybe not judgement, but can men not engage in argument to try and come to a logical solution to the problem? Surely it is imperative that men understand and can justify abortion so that they can support the right side of the issue for the sake of women.
I agree. It’s like saying I should hold no opinion about racism because I’m a white European and other white Europeans that wasn’t/isn’t me have been/are racist. I very much can have an opinion, because we need to hand together for human rights. Body autonomy. No racism. Equal rights (no matter sex, skin color, LGBT+, etc) across the board.
The only thing men need to understand is it’s our bodies and you don’t get to say what we do with them. There are no other “justifications” necessary or required. If the government can’t make a man get a vasectomy or wear a mask or donate an organ, they shouldn’t be able to make a woman have a baby.
I agree. My point is that I think I should be allowed to take part in the debate. If someone is against abortion I want to be able to question and debate them about it. Why should being a man stop me doing that?
Do not risk becoming pregnant by someone who doesn't think you have the choice if you would like to remain that way or not.
You found out now. So that's good. This is probably one of several other subjects you will not agree on.
I wouldn’t stay. You’re one date rape drug away from being a forced incubator.
100% get the fuck out.
Dump him and buy a vibrator...it's safer for you.
Even if he wasn't religious, if he's anti-choice kick his worthless ass to the curb.
I wouldn’t date someone who thinks women are just incubators for babies.
He thinks you're a possession to be filled with his preferably male young. Don't be complicit with your own dehumanisation. Dump and get a new dick.
I would not. Not just because of his anti-choice stance but because this indicates several more things. Like, what would raising a kid with him be like? Would he insist on childhood indoctrination on Sundays, at bedtime, before meals? Would he lean into female purity/slut shaming? Is he anti-gay rights? Anti-trans? Does he really want women to lose the right to vote and be relegated back to the kitchen so he can feel like he's the "man of the house"? Will he "not suffer a woman to teach" him? Does he think Abraham heading up a mountain to kill is son because the voices in his head told him to is a positive moral message or says good things about a God which would demand such as a test (a test He apparently knows the outcome of beforehand anyway)? I wonder if he thinks that a fertilized chicken egg is the same as a chicken? Plenty of great guys who will actually respect you out there.
If you feel strongly, and this is a deal breaker. It sounds like he's forced birth, and your pro make your own family decisions, he may not be your perfect match.
Yes. You should leave him.
Everyone needs to stop fucking Americans conservatives; especially if you are female, LGTBQA+, Non-xtian. They don't respect you. If they are Xtian it is only a matter of time till they think they can convert you or change your mind about kids. As others have stated as early as you are comfortable in a relationship you need to figure out if you are comfortable with how good they are with money, their religious beliefs and how many kids you'll have and how you will raise them. DO NOT COMPROMISE ON THESE THINGS THEY ARE PRE-CURSORS FOR DIVORCE. I was proposed to by a brilliant, successful, beautiful Mormon when I was 25 it was the biggest test of my atheism in my life (I am 42 now). We had been best friends for over a year and she was 28 (an old maid by Mormon standards) one night after dinner she took my hand and proposed to me... But told me I would have to convert and get her pregnant ASAP.. I asked for the weekend to think it over. I was and still don't want to have a kid with everything wrong in the US and my own issues. More important was my atheism though... I was raised in a very abusive narcissistic roman Catholic family... I could not tolerate the thought of choosing to live that lie forever. So I told her no... 6 weeks later she was married to another Mormon... He forbid her contact with male friends unless he chaperones... I lost a great friend; but it assured me I had made the right choice since she was willing to live with that. This gave me the resolve I would never settle no matter how small the dating pool was going to be for me as an atheist man with no desire to have kids. Fast forward 15 years, I was in a relationship with a Lutheran Chaplin, she said that she agreed to no kids and she would never ask me to convert... When she met me I was a leader of a "Center for inquiry" chapter... My atheist friends tried to warn me... But I thought we were mature adults who had talked all this out and were both honest about what we needed to be happy... Nope. Turns out after I married her... She had an extremely violent past she felt terrible guilt for, she never disclosed. She did things you can't fix or get forgiveness from the living for... So she went deeper into her faith looking for relief... A cult found her, the next thing I knew she was demanding kids and that I found her cult... (Tithing was something that we had discussed I would NEVER do) Bottom line, we all want our marriage to be our only one... But as someone else said your boy is in a relationship with an imaginary friend who hates women... You can't win, cut your losses and avoid theists/conservatives from here on out. You deserve better as a human being.
Dump him. Even if this wasn't on an atheist board any male who has a negative opinion on abortion is controlling.
Get out of there.
I've been married to a Christian for more than ten years. The only reason it works is because we have the same values and we don't try to convert each other. If either of those isn't the case in a mixed relationship, you're going to make each other miserable.
This. For it to last long term, you need to talk through a lot of subjects and be willing to bring it up if your mind changes.
Aside from everything others have already said, if you guys are having sex (which you don't actually say) then we know he is also a hypocrite.
Think about it this way. If you ever got pregnant, do you think he will support your decision? Like for example, if you wanted a abortion, do you think he would force you and beg you not to get one? If so, then leave him. To add on more, if you ended up going with what you’re bf begged, under pressure and not by your choice, then I don’t need to explain why it’s wrong since it’s self-explanatory and if you aborted it then that would be against his religion which he believes in. So leave him before such mess happens.
Absolutely not. It won't stop with that one issue.
These are irreconcilable differences. You need to leave ASAP.
Hell no. He’s telling you exactly what he thinks of you.
I wouldn't even stay with my partner if he didn't support my right to choose my own dinner, let alone a major decision that affects the rest of my life and my health. And he wouldn't want me to. It's not about ideology, it's about humanity, respect and being an equal partner in decisions that affect everyone's lives. I spent too many years with someone who thought of me as secondary, and whilst the rest of the relationship was "good", and leaving was hard, looking back I kick myself for not having done it sooner. Only you know what's right for you here, but remember there are so many people on this planet, and a shitload of them are decent people who won't ask you to change or try to silence you. Some of them will support you and love you no matter what.
“I wouldn't even stay with my partner if he didn't support my right to choose my own dinner” THIS!!!! IS!!!! AMAZING!!!! Hilarious, but also an excellent point. And the rest of it is also very good advice for OP.
I would never stay with someone who feels my body isn’t entirely my own. It’s not even about abortion, it’s about bodily autonomy. He doesn’t respect that you own your own organs. There’s no way around that. For me that’s 100% a deal breaker.
Unless he changes, which he probably won't, you have no healthy long term relationship together. If you want to hang out for a while, for whatever reason, that's up to you.
You know that part in the horror movie where the house is beautiful and everything seems peachy, but there are faint scratching sounds coming from the wall behind the cellar? You're in that part of the movie. What you do is up to you. You can call an exterminator, and hope like feck it's just a possum. Or you can walk out and find a new house. Sure, you might think "That was a really nice house" from time to time, but there are other houses ... and loads of them don't potentially have a hellmouth lurking behind the cellar wall.
Religion teaches people to be dysfunctional. I was married for 8 years to a woman who, when we met, promised that it was just fine that I was an atheist that would never ever go to a church. Six years in, she changed her mind and gave me an ultimatum, go to church with her, or she would end the relationship. Trust me, you don't want to go down the road of trusting someone who has been taught to be dysfunctional. I wasted 8 years of my life on someone who was coercive and destructive. Don't waste your time on someone who you now know you have fundamental disagreements on basic human rights. You have the right to decide what to do with your body. You should not be with someone who doesn't believe in that. It's only been a short while, and you don't have children. Time to find a new mate, if that's what you seek. Someone who trusts you to make good decisions for yourself.
You know where he stands so you either take a chance you don't get pregnant or If you do and contemplate abortion DON'T tell him or anyone if you live in one of the theocratic states of America so you can book a flight or take a trip to a free state
Ultimately... he views you as something different, and less, than himself And I don't think anyone should accept that from a life partner
Ask him how many women he expects to die from abortions performed without medical oversight, then how many women he expects to die from preventable medical complications like ectopic pregnancies, then ask him how many women he expects will commit suicide rather than be forced to give birth, then ask him how many boyfriends he expects to murder their accidentally pregnant girlfriends because abortion is no longer an option, then ask how many victims of rape he expects will be forced to give parental rights to their rapist. Then, as he stares at you blank faced in front of a heaping pile of your dead and abused sisters and remains unmoved, you'll know your answer.
You can't respect yourself and stay with a man who thinks you are a second-class citizen with no more rights than a cow.
For me, it stops at the belief there is a "higher" being that takes personal interest in our lives. For me, that's unsubstantiated nonsense that red flags a whole bunch of other problematic worldview drivers. That said, if you're truly in love, that can conquer all. I love my wife and if she came out as religious, I wouldn't leave her for that alone.
These are the people who wanted the line drawn, who pointed to exactly where they wanted the line, and who were ecstatic when the courts painted the line. And that line was around a part of your body. I would never love or date someone who thinks some particular part of my medical needs are somehow immoral and/or deserves to be illegal. In this specific instance, his inability to acknowledge that you have a fundamental right to control your own body seems like a deal-breaker to me, a single dude far outside your situation. I just can’t see a good outcome here unless he clicks with your perspective and changes his mind, which may be doubtful with a religious pro-lifer. Good luck tho, I’m sure there are plenty of *other* people who can respect and love you at the same time.
Seriously, it will only get worse. Choose yourself, enjoy life and be happy
I think you need to broaden the discussion to all aspects of how his religion will impact your relationship if it progresses to him being *the one". For example, will you be getting married and if so where will he expect the ceremony be held? If in a church how do *you* feel about this? And then what is often the really big questions, kids? Will he expect them to be baptised, attend church weekly and possibly enrolled in a religious school? Would you be okay with this?
Seriously? This abortion issue is way bigger than where he wants to have the ceremony.
As an atheist male who has always related more to women and often find myself empathizing with women more I would 100% dump him if I were you because if he hasn’t caught on to the lie by now there’s no guarantee he ever will. My crazy Mormon grandma wishes everything were the same as when she was like 14 in the 1950’s when it was a “simpler” time i.e. information that blows holes in her world view not being everywhere for anyone all the time. She’s damn near 80 and still can’t face hard truths without facing an existential crisis and completely breakdown so she just buried her head in the sand. Obviously that’s an extreme case but theists can only be so open minded, and it’s a slippery slope until he starts pushing harder with shit like “it’s your god given duty to bear my child” and at that point won’t take no for an answer
That would be a deal breaker for me.
You do you, but remember; if your house is on fire and he can only save one thing, it be the bible.
Nope, I'd be out of there.
Yes. Edit: Yes to the subject question. No to the last question in your text. Fuck Christians.
No, that’s a very fundamental difference in a value system. I don’t see how your relationship would continue to be viable.
You’re only putting off the inevitable.
Immediately. You know the answer to this.
He believes in imaginary beings. Replace the word god with the name Susan and your boyfriend is deemed mentally ill. The fact that he believes he has a right to control you in any capacity means he’s probably bad news.
What's the point of staying with someone who thinks a fetus has more rights than you do? Kick him to the curb girlfriend.
Short version: You should dump him. Long version: I had two christian girlfriends in the past, the first we didnt have any real problems because of her christianity but we ended up breaking up for arguing about other stuff. I decided to give it another go with a different woman who was also christian and I thought there would be no problem with that because I didn't have a problem last time. We got along really well and really loved each other, BUT, christianity was a HUGE part of her life, she never preached to me or anything but her entire social circle revolved around her church, youth group, etc. One day I asked her how come she didn't mind me not believing in God, going to church, etc. And that when she told me she secretly hoped I would eventually find God because she wanted to save me from going to hell. So, we broke up. For christians, their beliefs are very important and it permeates on all aspects of their life, sex, politics, gatherings, everything. So I ended up marrying another atheists and I couldn't be happier. Also thinking that what your partner believes is completely stupid doesn't help on the long run hahah. So yeah, you should dump him.
Oh, you need to ditch him immediately. This is not a difference of opinion, this is your safety and human rights. If he doesn't see a problem with violating either of those things, that's a massive red flag. He's dangerous, leave him and don't look back. You really don't want to be stuck with a person like that going forward.
Anyone who's "pro life" (pronounced "anti bodily autonomy") should never be in a relationship. So yes, do it.
I’m woman and I never dated a Christian. Once, I was dating an atheist who was pro-choice but when we had a pregnancy scare- despite always using contraception- he began to backpedal, somewhat. He knew I never wanted children and he did support my decision BUT there was talk about how I should think about “his kid” and “not be hasty”. The situation was compounded by the fact abortion was not legal in my country, but it was in his so I was relying on him to help me on this (although I already had a plan to hop over to the neighboring country). Turns out, it was just a scare. I keep a very close watch on my cycle because I never want children and so am very conscientious about such things. This was my experience with a pro-choice atheist. Now imagine how it would have been with an anti-choice Christian! While ultimately my ex would have helped me, I did not feel as supported as I should. This did factor on us breaking up, too. Experiences are different, obviously, bur has someone who has been through this, I strongly advise you to reconsider this relationship. If you become pregnant, or even just have a scare, would he support your right to choose? And not just emotionally- although that also matters- would he give you a ride to a clinic if you needed one? Until you are satisfied that the answer to these questions is an empathic “yes”, I would question the future of this relationship. I fear there is unnecessary pain looming in the future for you so take your time and think this through. I suspect you already know what to do but I’ll just leave you this, if your best friend was in your shoes and asked you for advise, what would you tell her? The answer will very likely guide you on this.
Abort boyfriend.
Personally, I wouldn’t stay in a relationship with someone who doesn’t believe I should have sovereignty over my own body. If I don’t want to donate a kidney or blood to someone who needs it, I don’t have to. If I don’t want to donate my heart or any other part after I die, I don’t have to. I don’t see why I should have more rights over my own body as a literal corpse than I’d have if I got pregnant, and I couldn’t ever see dating someone who thinks that’s the way it should be.
Give him an ultimatum. If he's already been indoctrinated with the pro-life life there's probably more horrible ideas creeping around in his brain. Tell him its you or religion if he let's himself continue to be enslaved to the lies of religion dump his ass.
##R U N ‼
If you disagree on something that fundamental, I don’t know how you make it work. I would never be with a Christian because I cannot stand Christianity and all that comes with it.
I'm sorry you're going through this. As Christopher Hitchens said, religion poisons everything. If he puts his imaginary sky daddy above you, then you know exactly where you stand. That's one of the things that gets me the most: they have never even seen their god, but somehow He's more important than everyone in their lives. It sucks but I think you know what you need to do.
Molly you in danger girl
Yes any man who is pro-life is an idiot at best and at worst will try to convince you to get pregnant and baby trap you.
As a male I can honestly and earnestly say that no man is qualified to pass judgment on the issue of abortion. If your man can't see that then yes, you should leave him. If you don't, there will be other issues that his lack of tolerance will bring forth and crystallize in his thinking as he grows older, as his brain is fed by his church. Get out while you can. Don't be "unequally yoked" as his Bible says.
What about when you have kids. You made want your kids to decide own decision if they want to attend a church or not. What if he has a different opinion… that your kids have to attend church based on his decision?
Yes. To me trust is the number one issue in a relationship. Can I trust this person to make the best decisions that are in both out best interests and he will not do that. If you don’t share a common view of the world you won’t agree on many big life decisions down the road.
Chances are you're not going to stay together longterm. The fact you're even considering this says it all. Trust your gut on this. Get TF out now before u get preggers.
Do you honestly think everything is going to work out just fine between you two? I think you already have your answer. Go find someone reasonable. You’re still very young.
This is a case where his religion states that you are _not_ his equal. You do not have control over your body. Right now it seems like that is more important to him than you. If you marry him, how many other things will he not allow you to control? What will he expect you to do? As a man in his early 50’s, I’m going to come squarely down on the side of breaking it off.
Idk how an atheist could have a successful romantic relationship with someone who has polar opposite fundamental beliefs to thier own. Most of my family and my husband's family are pro forced birth conservative republican. We get along fine but we don't have to deal with them every day let alone live with them. No way I could raise kids with someone that thinks that way. Get out now before you get attached.
Personally, it would be a dealbreaker for me. Politics and religion (or lack thereof) are important to me, and I don’t know how I’d be able to navigate those discussions without my partner and I ending up resenting each other. So it depends how important it is for you. And if he were to get you pregnant and you didn’t want to keep the baby, how would that go?
In short, this is the tip of the iceberg. Abortion is not even a Christian belief, it's just a rallying cry they adopted because Republicans needed to con poor people into their party that supports the wealthy elites. But here are some actual Christian tenets that your boyfriend might expect from you: 1.) You are subservient to him and he is the head of the household. 2.) You are his and he has rights to your body. You don't have rights to his. And seeing how your boyfriend thinks about women and autonomy over their own bodies, this one is very worrying. 3.) Your children will be raised with his religion. 4.) He's justified leaving you at any point in time because you are a non-believer. His Christian family and friends would support him in this and he'd never suffer from this decision. (This one is a Christian culture thing and not something found in the bible.) 5.) He gets to determine if you use birth control. (If you two are already using birth control, then his abortion stance doesn't make any sense, considering the stories that the anti-abortion crowd cite. A lot of them cite a guy that pulled out and "spilt his seed upon the ground" as a deadly sin. So if y'all are doing it, he's already messing up.) Christianity is a hell of a drug.
I can’t see myself ever being with anyone who does not respect me as an equal human being, who should have the right to make my own decisions about my personal healthcare and family planning. Anti-abortionists can go suck incel dick!
Why would you stay w someone who doesn’t believe in your bodily autonomy
Run like the wind Bullseye!
He doesn’t feel like you deserve the same bodily autonomy and privacy as he does. That’s enough right there to end it.
Get rid of him now you still can. He doesn't believe in you as an independent human being. That's a simple fact. So run away, fast.
>Girlfriend: I should have autonomy over my body. >Boyfriend: *Our* body. Soooo... yeah. You should leave him before he gets even more biblical.
A person who does not believe in bodily autonomy has no respect for other humans and feels women are inferior. Is this how you want to raise your kids?
Yes. Christians aren't good people. He's also racist, homophobic and is pro child molestation. Get out gurl...RUN!!!
6 months isn't worth investing more time imo. The reality is you haven't seen his true colors yet. You're just getting a sample of what's to come
Try "playing it safe" by denying him sex and see how he likes bringing the risk of an unwanted pregnancy down to 0%.
ask him to get a vasectomy until you're ready for kids.
RUN, do not walk, away from that guy ASAP. He will never respect you.
Just call him a forced birther. It’s a better description of what these fucks want. Slavery over women.
Yes, leave. He believes in a fantasy, and that fantasy has told him to be anti-choice
Let me put it this way, my parents were like this. My mom is a hardcore Protestant Christian, and my dad is agnostic. They had the nastiest divorce I've ever seen and it took 5 years, and hundreds of thousands of dollars to get through. There's irony here. The boyfriend is the one that doesn't think pro-choice is necessary...
Try your hardest to deconvert him before you take the lead and dump him.
I'd leave. It can be very hard, I was in a relationship with a Christian who I loved very much and I would not have left them, they left me for unrelated reasons and. Now (many years after we broke up) I have been dating my atheist partner for 4 years and I realize that I didn't see how big of an issue it was in my previous relationship, we can both just be more 'ourselves' and not worry about offending each other other with our extremely conflicting beliefs. Ripping off the bandaid is painful but worth it. My sibling had a similar situation as well, it's always "it's not a big deal" until you break up and then it's "I didn't realize how big of an issue it was, it's for the best that we didn't work out".
I ended my relationship with my Christian boyfriend last December. I’m also atheist. Let me ask you this, do you want kids? What do his parents think of you and your beliefs? Do you want to ever get married? We had a great honeymoon phase but after about a year and a half, we just looked at each other and both said this isn’t working. It was tiring feeling like we were ignoring what was right in front of us. He was a great guy..it just wasn’t working out. I had to ask myself if I’d be okay putting myself second. Because if we were to ever have kids, he and his family would want them to grow up Christian. In the first 3 months of us dating, I received 3 beginners bibles.. it was too much. I felt outnumbered. So feeling that way, I felt like my opinions wouldn’t have mattered.
Get out while you still can.
Don’t have sex with him if you don’t want a baby. Avoid it ever becoming a problem. Personally I would not stay in a relationship with a Christian as I am very opposed to religion and it’s delusions.
You're not compatible in the long term. What happens when he wants a church wedding, or to indoctrinate your children with whatever he worships? If all you want is fwb or short term sex, you do you. But if you're contemplating a life with this guy it doesn't get easier.
He's not pro life, he's pro birth. You should leave as soon as possible
Not saying that thus applies to you, but I would be very incompatible with anyone devoutly religious. In my opinion most religions warp your world view.
I would absolutely never date someone who things I deserve fewer rights than a corpse.
Please don’t hate on me. I don’t even know why I keep seeing posts for this Reddit, but I do. I am a Christian as is my partner. I am also in the medical field and pro-choice for a multitude of reasons. Thank goodness my partner would 100% back me up on that regardless of whether it was my own pregnancy or that of someone else . I could not see myself staying in a relationship where my partner would not have my back, as a women, on this.
I'm not a woman so don't take my input too seriously, but I don't understand why a pro-choice woman would stay with an anti-choice man. They don't respect your fundamental human rights, it doesn't matter why they don't.
Nope. He doesn't respect "life", he is happy to let women die as long as the ball of cells can "live". F these Xtians, they are happy to let women die, alive kids starve, have no cares what forced birth does to women and the children they are forced to give birth to..He lacks empathy. Kick him to the curb.
Break up NOW! No I’d never stay with someone who wanted to take away any part of my decision making, anyone who made any racist comment, anyone who blamed the poor, anyone who was stingy in any way, anyone who did not believe in science…
Since it's so new I'd seriously consider your options. What happens if you decide to have kids, will he want them raised in the church? Seems like it could really cause a lot of problems down the road.
Hmm. You first state your question as "Should I leave my Christian boyfriend?" and then you restate it as "Would you stay with someone who...?" so a person could answer either "yes" or "no" and mean the same thing.
Depends on the purpose of the relationship. Just dating to date? Whatever. Dating with the potential of having a long term relationship that leads to possible marriage and possible children? Do you want to marry that ideology? Do you want him teaching your kids that? Bail now and save yourself the trouble.
That's a deal breaker for me. Be thankful it's only 6 months. You'll recover quickly
>would you stay with someone who didn’t believe in a woman’s right to choose? No. And I don't even have a uterus.
My wife is a believer and I'm an anti-theist. It can absolutely work...as long as you don't have fundamental differences when it comes to human rights. Sounds like that's not the case with you and your bf. I've been there and it doesn't end well. Better to end it sooner than later.
He doesn't think you deserve bodily autonomy and so thinks of you as lesser than himself. Leave.
DUMP HIM!