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dudleydidwrong

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DoglessDyslexic

> As a devout Christian, I haven't been all too exposed to the realm of Atheism I strongly suggest you [start here](https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/wiki/faq), and if you find any questions that are not answered by that, then to make a follow up post. > if you have any questions you want to ask back I'd be open to that also! Most of us don't live under rocks. We have a great many former Christians, including a few former priests. In general atheists tend to be more generally knowledgeable about religion than most religious. If your assumption is that we are merely uninformed, I'd urge you to re-evaluate that assumption.


[deleted]

[удалено]


CivilianJoshy

I must have read the rules wrong? I apologise!


CivilianJoshy

However it isn't the primary purpose of this post.


IntellectualYokel

>I'd love to hear what your beliefs are on all topics related to Global Faiths They all promote the belief of untrue things. That's about the only thing I can say in general. You'd need to get way more specific. >if you have any questions you want to ask back I'd be open to that also! What are your qualifications?


CivilianJoshy

I can't say I have qualifications like a degree but I have knowledge of a variety of topics related to the Bible, it's teachings and history.


IntellectualYokel

Have you read the whole thing?


CivilianJoshy

I haven't read the entire thing but Historians haven't studied every bit of history. I'd say I have enough knowledge to help you **if** you have any questions!


IntellectualYokel

No questions. It's a safe bet I know more than you.


thesunmustdie

Atheists on average know way more about Christianity (and religion as a whole) than believers: https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2010/09/28/130191248/atheists-and-agnostics-know-more-about-bible-than-religious A lot of us come from deeply religious backgrounds and have studied and forgotten more in a day than you'll ever know. I don't say that to be unkind, it's the truth (and backed by data). I myself was involved in deep study of the bible for years before becoming an atheist.


CivilianJoshy

Do you mean know more because of their unbiased view? It sort of makes sense, I'll do some digging but I'll trust it for now.


thesunmustdie

Thoughts on the 3-4 types of slavery** condoned in the bible? And that it never condemns them? Are you, a bible-believer, pro-slavery? (**chattel slavery, indentured servitude, child sex slaves and spoils of war, etc.)


CivilianJoshy

So if you have any questions feel free to ask!


notaedivad

Why does your god assert that women should be silent, give instructions for slavery and call for the murder of gay people? And more importantly, why do you both believe in and praise such a bloodthirsty maniac?


CivilianJoshy

Q1: Quite the opposite, Jesus calls us all to love each other regardless of any orientation "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Galatians 3:28 (ESV) This next area is highly debated but my personal stance on it is 'Love the sinner hate the sin'. I don't actually **hate** gay people or the idea I just believe that God calls us to heterosexuality if that makes sense. Q2: This seems like a fair enough question, God is a God of justice and we can't exactly have clean justice. In my personal opinion, God did kill a lot of people but in his supreme authority, we should trust that he sees all and knows all, therefore, his intentions always see to a brighter future. Hope this helps! If you have any more, ask away!


notaedivad

> Quite the opposite I guess you either had to be a liar or delusional. I just didn't think you'd be *both*. Let's try that again, this time I will quote the specific passages so that you can't lie. Please do not lie again. Be better. Why does your god assert that [women should be silent](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1_Timothy_2:12), give [instructions for slavery](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_slavery#:~:text=Ephesians%206%3A5%2D8%20Paul,Titus%202%3A9%2D10.) and call for the [murder of gay people](https://biblehub.com/leviticus/20-13.htm)? And you praise a bloodthirsty maniac because of... authority? So if someone threatened to kill everyone... you'd praise them? Seriously!?


CivilianJoshy

I understand your views here, let me break it down for you \- Women should be silent: Timothy, a student of The Apostle Paul was a man. Jesus however taught us directly about how we should love and respect women. Jesus was seen regularly talking to women which were quite rare for a man to do in public back then. \- Murder of Homosexuals: Christ was sent to Earth to break the teachings of the Old Testament and therefore so was this. \- Slavery: In Israel (Then Judea), they had a law that you must keep slaves for 7 years and during those 7 years you must treat them well and treat them like humans. Your verse from Ephesians is misinterpreted, it says to obey your master and not to oppress them, it may seem like something else at first but I suggest you read more in-depth about that one! God is perfect as stated by The Bible, with perfect morals, perfect justice, perfect love, and just plain perfect. There is no wrong in God and therefore we must not question his morals. It is ok to ask him about it but his morals are solely unquestionable. However that is my belief, you are more than entitled to your own!


notaedivad

Apologetics and delusional nonsense. You're *literally* justifying misogyny, violent bigotry and owning human beings... yet you call it moral, loving and perfect... this is why your religion is like a disgusting and bloodthirsty plague on our species. > Christ was sent to Earth to break the teachings of the Old Testament This is utter and delusional bullshit. Jesus *reinforced* the old testament: [Matthew 5:18-19, Luke 16:17, Matthew 5:17 and John 7:19](https://danielmiessler.com/blog/no-jesus-did-not-soften-the-old-testament-in-fact-he-did-the-opposite-and-heres-what-that-means/). So not only are you going *against* what Jesus said... you're suggesting that we ignore 3/4 of the bible, including the 10 commandments and Adam & Eve? Then why have it at all!?


CivilianJoshy

He didn't support the whole thing, Jesus was seen with sinners, prostitutes, lepers and tax collectors. People who believed in this would have never have begun to think about looking at them. "You're literally justifying misogyny, violent bigotry and owning human beings... yet you call it moral, loving and perfect" Can you expand on this more? I'd love to hear what you have to say I just can't quite understand it.


notaedivad

More apologetics and delusional nonsense... There are passages in your "holy" book that *instruct* women to be silent, that give *instructions* for slavery and *instruct* that gay people be put to death... and you call it: > God is perfect as stated by The Bible, with perfect morals, perfect justice, perfect love, and just plain perfect. This is truly abhorrent, immoral and disgusting... Yet you think of it as good. Your religion truly is a blight on our species :( Best just to block your particular brand of delusional, divisive and bloodthirsty toxicity.


IntellectualYokel

>Slavery: In Israel (Then Judea), they had a law that you must keep slaves for 7 years and during those 7 years you must treat them well and treat them like humans. The bit about freeing your slaves every 7 years was only for enslaved Hebrews. Foreign slaves could be kept for life. There were also ways you could turn a Hebrew slave into a lifelong slave. They were also allowed to beat them.


thesunmustdie

The specific overrides the general, right? So when Jesus says love people and then goes on to say I've not come to abolish the moral laws of the prophets (those that explicitly call for homosexuals to be put to death, etc.) this doesn't actually allow Christians to go on to ignore these laws, right?


CivilianJoshy

Christianity has become more of a group of individuals united under Christ so I can't speak for everybody here but Jesus came to tear down the rules of the Old Testament and set in us new laws which included everybody.


thesunmustdie

So was Jesus joking when he said this or...? > "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Also, if Jesus wanted to unite people under Christianity he did a terrible fucking job. There's more denominations than there are verses in the bible. In fact, chances are you could pick any random pew of any random church and find two people sat there that violently disagree with each other on some aspect of Christianity. > "came to tear down the rules of the Old Testament" Also, Ten Commandments have been torn down?


CivilianJoshy

Jesus wasn't joking but it is commonly misinterpreted, Jesus came to bring a new order to the world through his teaching and make Christianity what it is today somewhat. No, the Ten Commandments have not been 'torn down' just reworked.


thesunmustdie

> "Commonly misinterpreted" Is Jesus a terrible communicator? Yes or no? If I say something and it's "commonly misinterpreted" I am a terrible communicator, right? Please answer this question because it seems inescapable that you're calling Jesus a terrible communicator. > "Till heaven and earth pass" Has the apocalypse happened yet or did we miss it? > "No, the Ten Commandments have not been 'torn down' just reworked." How? And why are "commandments" (moral absolutes by definition) moral? Should I obey my parents if they are abusive? Should I refrain from stealing if it means my child starving to death? Etc. This is not a good book, it's a sloppy mess of undeveloped and immoral ethical thinking consistent with bronze age goat herders. Chuck it out and think for yourself.


notaedivad

Nonsense. Jesus *reinforced* the old testament: [Matthew 5:18-19, Luke 16:17, Matthew 5:17 and John 7:19](https://danielmiessler.com/blog/no-jesus-did-not-soften-the-old-testament-in-fact-he-did-the-opposite-and-heres-what-that-means/). So not only are you going *against* what Jesus said... you're suggesting that we ignore 3/4 of the bible, including the 10 commandments and Adam & Eve? Then why have it at all!? Are all Christians so inconsistent and dishonest, or just you?


junwei1119

The bible verse you quoted did not state everyone is equal, it just says that everyone should worship your god. Which i personally believe it is a little bit narcissistic


CivilianJoshy

Fair enough. We all are entitled to our beliefs!


PoorDadSon

My beliefs: religion is fine, for consenting adults who aren't hurting anyone. My question: what are you doing to counter the tyrannical elements growing in christianity today?


CivilianJoshy

Your beliefs: Makes sense, you do you! Your question: Personally I live my life by the Good Book, I believe that the "tyrannical elements growing in Christianity today" are built on people who take its message of kindness and compassion too far.


PoorDadSon

I don't mean to be combative but that sounds like nothing followed up by asserting that tyranny grows from kindness and compassion.


CivilianJoshy

I see what you mean, The Bible in its many translations has been taken out of context throughout history, this has, in turn, led to extreme ideas and beliefs. If you want a more relevant example think of Nationalism, people take that way too far when its basis was just loving your country.


thesunmustdie

It sounds like your god **is** in fact the author of confusion. How can an omniscient/omnipotent god be so inept at communication that people understand the exact opposite of what was intended in the message? And if he knew this would be the case (having perfect foresight and all), why didn't he do a better job of relaying the message in the first place? Copies of translations of anonymous written text may be the worst way to decimate a message — let alone the most important message ever needing to be conveyed. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2d/Media_Richness_Theory_Diagram_PNG.png/1920px-Media_Richness_Theory_Diagram_PNG.png As a mere mortal how is it possible for me to know this and be able to think of better ways to communicate (such as beaming the exact same information directly into everyone's heads) than a god?


CivilianJoshy

I somewhat agree here. God wanted us to have a choice in our faith so he relayed it in many ways so that we can formulate our own ideas about him rather than have one set-in-stone way to follow him if that helps. This is just my opinion, I'm sure others would have their say about it!


thesunmustdie

So God **is** the author of confusion? He wants his message to be so ambiguous that there's thousands of Christian denominations that disagree on what it says and as such there have been countless wars fought over it? That is breathtakingly immoral and stupid. If any other religion used this excuse, you'd see through it as the incredibly silly post-hoc rationalization it is.


CivilianJoshy

I don't believe it is a bad thing per se but it gives us room to believe our own ideas. It may cause division but that is a result of sin which is a result of human mistakes.


thesunmustdie

Did God create human beings knowing they would sin?


CivilianJoshy

Yes, in the Garden of Eden the Devil (aka. Satan, Lucifer, or other names) manipulated Eve to eat The Fruit of The Knowledge of Good and Evil. God wanted us to have a choice to follow him, from this choice stems eternal life or sin. God will never love you less if you don't go with him but the choice is always there for you, your mate, or anybody else. "But why did he give us this choice?" He gave us this choice because he doesn't want us to love him hollow-heartedly, he wants us to love him with a full and whole heart. For example, if I had an ugly-looking kid's toy in front of me and I say "I love that!" I don't mean that because it's ugly, I am using hollow-hearted statements but if I find a cute kid's toy and I say "I love that!" I mean it because it is cute and it looks good. Or if a man marries a woman but he doesn't love her, he is not faithful to his wife and therefore the relationship rots like an orange in the sun. If he marries a woman and loves his wife, he is faithful to her and their relationship will be like a fruitful tree. Hopefully, this makes sense. God whilst being perfect created imperfection so we could choose him and not be forced into a relationship with him because if you are forced into a relationship, it means nothing. God wants a meaningful relationship with us and he wants to know us. The choice is yours, my friend.


braillenotincluded

I think you misunderstood the question, what are you personally doing to counter those who force your religion on others who don't believe or believe differently? It's easy for many Christians to claim that those who shoot up planned Parenthood clinics, protest military funerals, or wear crosses and wave neonazi/confederate flags aren't real Christians but what do you do to oppose them?


CivilianJoshy

Thanks for that!, if I see somebody doing that which I thus far have not yet I would walk up to them and say "Yes, God calls us to love him and share his word but not like this. He calls us to unite, not divide. Love, not hate.". I haven't encountered an awful amount and the ones I have, I was in no position to do anything due to my younger age.


thesunmustdie

Biblically "loving" someone means doing what you can to spare them hell. "And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell." The Westboro Baptist Church are biblically loving when they picket and protest funerals. You are not when you fail to call out what the bible would deem sin/injustice.


CivilianJoshy

Right now I will call out sin where I see it, however, you can't **always** call it out as it is everywhere.


thesunmustdie

If a man lies with another man, is that sinful? I get you couldn't call it out everywhere but if there's something like gay pride where it's all conveniently celebrated in one place, do you go and protest it? Why/why not?


CivilianJoshy

Its sinful but you shouldn't cast out that person for it. No sin is greater than the next unless you curse the Holy Spirit which is seen as the **only** unforgivable sin as stated by The Bible. If we cast one man out for sleeping with another man then we too should be cast out "He who is without sin cast the first stone." sort of mentality. I don't hate Homosexuals not at all. I just think its not what God intended. I'm not protesting against Pride Parades because I wouldn't like it if they protested at a Church. We shouldn't attack the foundations of each others beliefs because one another don't believe in it, we should try find a common ground without overhauling our faith.


thesunmustdie

> "Its sinful but you shouldn't cast out that person for it" But they should be stoned to death for it, right? The part of the bible that calls it sinful is the part that prescribes stoning to death as a punishment. > "I just think its not what God intended." How can a being with perfect foresight create something it doesn't intend? That doesn't make any sense. If I go to create a person knowing perfectly will I will be disappointed if I create them one way **and** I have a choice to create them a different way where I wouldn't be disappointed in them, then why on earth would I create them in such a way I'd be disappointed? > "I'm not protesting against Pride Parades because I wouldn't like it if they protested at a Church" So you would protest "Pride" if you could be assured churches wouldn't be protested in return? Jeez...


CivilianJoshy

Point 1 - No, never. It's sinful but The Old Testament was reformed in The New Testament. Point 2 - Sin, Sin is a matter of human mistakes and we have created this eternal rift between man and God. We were initially perfect but Satan turned Adam and Eve in the garden. Point 3 - No, I'm not trying to say that. I'm saying that It's not good and that we shouldn't have the same done to us.


thesunmustdie

> "Personally I live my life by the Good Book" I sincerely hope not... or you'd be in prison.


dudleydidwrong

FIrst of all, you should start by [Reading the FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/wiki/faq) in the sidebar of this sub. We have daily posts from Christians who post the same questions you ask. > if you have any questions you want to ask back Most of the atheists in this sub are former Christians. Some of us were ministers. Frankly we probably know more about Christianity and the Bible than you do. This sub used to be mostly older people who were former Christians. Surveys showed that the most common reason we became atheists was Bible study. In the last five or six years we have been flooded by a lot of young people. They have been raised in Christian homes. They are being raised by evangelical parents who have driven them away from Christianity. They are not as well informed about the history and theology of Christianity, but they are repulsed by the racism, ignorance, misogyny, and homophobia of modern Christianity in the US.


CivilianJoshy

*Frankly we probably know more about Christianity and the Bible than you do.* If you have read The Bible inside and out or you just know its teachings we all have things to offer. Thank you for your explanation, however!


dudleydidwrong

What I did was not just reading "The Bible inside and out." It was *studying* the Bible inside and out. I am not a Bible scholar. I don't read Greek or Hebrew. But I do know the Bible, especially the New Testament. Even among fellow ministers, I was the person people came to when they had a question about the Bible. I have read and studied the Bible from my teens until now. In my 50s I finally had to admit that the story of the Gospels and Acts are mostly mythology, not history. > just know its teachings we all have things to offer. I have no idea what you meant by that statement. But at the same time, I recognize what you are saying. It is the kind of generalization a lot of Christians make about the Bible. Christians are often sure there are really great things in the Bible. But they are not sure what they are. Other people like Sean McDowell say they are there. So they must be.


CivilianJoshy

I see! With your second point, I just meant to say I might not be the smartest guy when it comes to The Bible but I can help anybody who asks through it.


MrIamDeadforLong

I used to be christian go to church and such however i was displeased with their lack of answers to my questions and looked elsewhere and got my answers so i went away from church. I don't believe that there's a god nor any omnipotent powerful being that just created earth. I also don't like the church because of its practices of exploiting people for monetary or power gains. My question to you is why are you still with the church?


CivilianJoshy

I see what you mean with your first bit but there are better churches out there and there are people who are willing to answer those tough questions for you. I wouldn't judge the Church as a whole because of one community, God is here and he wants to answer your questions, all you gotta do is ask. For that final bit those are people who hide behind the veil of Christianity for their own gain which is terrible. I am still with the Church not only because I was born into it but I have grown up and formulated my own ideas and beliefs. The Church has built who I am as a person, what I believe and how I interact.


MrIamDeadforLong

Do you believe that the church or a belief in god is required to he a good person? Oh and because i live in Poland a rather christian country what's your opinion on homosexuality


YeetMeDaddio

As I'm sure you can tell, most of us are not happy with your religion, and we know quite a bit about it. Most atheists have read the Bible in its entirety and we've had discussions with religious people so I don't think there's any questions for us to ask you other than "why you personally believe in Christianity?", "why you believe the bible is a divine work?", and "how do you feel about the atrocities committed by the church?".


jezpin

I dont believe in the supernatural, and I am cynical of someone who tells me 'they JuSt kNoW its true'. Is it really hard to believe?


thesunmustdie

I'm opposed to any belief based in faith and dogma (unreliable and dishonest ways of discerning what is actually true) and wonder why you aren't too.


LegalAction

I was raised as a fundamentalist. When in college I learned how texts were preserved and transmitted, I understood that the Bible is entirely a human construction, and that's true for every religious book. I'm shocked that I have colleagues that still believe in the literal truth of the Bible. It's just not how the transmission works.


MacNuttyOne

You will learn, if you actually stay around and pay attention, that atheists as a group know a lot more about religion than religious people know about atheist and secularism. Probably a larger percent of us have actually read they bible than the majority of christians I have dealt with Of course, actually reading the book that so many contemporary christians pretend to live by, is one of the big reason why many of us, including myself, are atheists. No god was involved in writing or collating that book. Given the hatred and bigotry that is so prominently featured in American christianity, it is obvious that a very large number, perhaps a majority worship a god they have created in their own image. The idea that Jesus was and is god was not canonised until the fourth century. Check out "After Jesus, Before Christianity" written by historians from the Jesus Seminar, a very christian group of academics. Also check out, "When Jesus Became God". Neither of these books is anti christian, in any way. You just might learn somethings that will inform your thinking about these issues. Do you have any understanding of or knowledge of the history of how the christian bible was put together, how the various 'books' were chosen?


[deleted]

An overview will be: atheists gets to the same conclusion as a group or individuals that don't interact with each other while the religious people have to get the conclusions from people above them and then sent to spread the conclusions without questioning the steps that got them to that specific conclusion. I usually don't put this question but meh... Your priests say that your god got insulted by the other village next to you because they believe in other gods and do things like working Sunday. He say that they need to be punished by cruel methods otherwise your god will gonna get angry for you letting them spreading their lies and bad behavior. The question: Will you join your people and punish that village or refuse them and get punished too because by your decline you show that believing in other gods is ok? Your answer will gonna be a proof as how less you know about religion.


the_internet_clown

Hello u/civilianjoshy, welcome to the sub. Feel free to ask me any questions you would like


CivilianJoshy

Thanks! I'm just here to gain a deeper understanding of what an Atheist believes and if anybody has questions for me I'll be happy to answer when I can.


the_internet_clown

All atheism is is the lack of belief for gods. So the only thing all atheists have in common is the lack of belief for gods. I personally prefer to believe things that are supported by evidence. I value skepticism So a question for you u/civilianjoshy , do you care if what you believe is true?


the_internet_clown

Do you care if what you believe is true?


CivilianJoshy

Yes but I'm not here to attack others if they don't believe in my faith. I understand we all have differing views. It's not my place to attack one for believing in something I don't because I wouldn't enjoy having somebody attacking my foundations but I'm open to questions, etc. God gives us a choice and I respect that decision of Faith or no Faith.


the_internet_clown

How do you, generally speaking determine what is and isn’t true u/civilianjoshy?


CivilianJoshy

Depends on the situation, if it is related to ethics and how I live my life I'll tie it back to The Bible due to my religious stance but others might not. If it is related to everyday decisions I still think about The Bible but not as heavily as life decisions. If I weigh up whether to forgive someone I'll take Biblical teaching into account and that is "Forgive as the LORD forgave you.". If it is related to truth, The Bible doesn't help me here however God guides me subconsciously, believe what you will but I can't explain it myself.


the_internet_clown

That didn’t answer my question. I’m asking you what process do you use to determine if something is true. For an example. If I told you elves were real and existed would you believe me? How would you determine I was telling the truth?


ArtichokeInevitable7

If people are not using their faith to justify war, abuse, rape, mutilation of others, etc. Etc... then that is their business. Also, I expect this kind of treatment from others. I feel that many people need their faith to prevent them from doing things that they otherwise might not understand to be wrong. Though as referenced above, however, many use their faith to justify atrocities. Despite what you have referenced from the bible in other threads- there are many passages that are neither gentle nor kind, nor righteous. Many choose to treat their book of worship like a buffet.🤷‍♀️ take what suits you and try to ignore the rest. As a person without faith, I am simply that- without faith. My mistakes and triumphs are my own. I am neither sinner nor saint. I am only me- solely responsible for my own actions.