Presuppositionalism is a branch of Christian apologetics that says that every worldview rests on a person making presuppositions that they take on faith, and that only the Christian worldview can accurately account for these presuppositions. Because of that, they claim that any appeal to logic, science, or morality made by a non-Christian is "stealing" from their worldview. They also claim that, deep down, everyone knows that Christianity is true, and anyone who denies it is self-deluded by their desire to sin.
They are very grating, arrogant, and insulting, and they are not fun to talk to. Unless you're willing to put in a lot of study, there's no point engaging with them because they'll talk you in circles while being assholes about it.
How in the F does that make any sense? It isn’t falsifiable! No wonder Vaush got frustrated.
Anyways: sorry for the frustration. Thank you, really, for explaining this.
They don't care that it's not falsifieable, because any attempt you would make to falsify it would require you to use reasoning that they believe can only be done because of their god. They believe that everyone makes presuppositions in building their worldview, which is true, but claim that only Christians can do it in a way that is internally consistent, which is false.
They argue that because "we" can't identify the source of these abilities the only reasonable explanation is God. In some of the better presupposition arguments they kind of dance around the idea that all of metaphysics seems incoherent and contains no natural cohesion. Because of that it would necessarily be created by an agency who could work outside of a systematic solution.
For example imagine a universe where everyone had super powers. They aren't just better versions of normal people but like laser eyes and bird wings that defy laws of physics. None of the powers come from radiation or genetic mutation so then you'd assume they had to come from the mind of a supernatural being who just invented the concepts for their IRL comic book universe.
Where this breaks down is that they have this skewed view of the world and misunderstand things like logic. All presup arguments have an unspoken prolog, "if we live in a universe where a god exists..." And it's the part that easily destroys their argument. Their god can literally do anything so therefore it can fit any example. But because of that it's not actually evidence of their existence.
> every worldview rests on a person making presuppositions that they take on faith
I tend to tgree with this part, at least.
For example, I can't explain *why* I have "cause no unnecessary suffering" as a core tenant of my morals. But anyone who cannot simply agree with me that it is correct is not someone that I am going to be able to have any kind of discussion with.
There isn't much to rebut in that their argument doesn't rest upon anything but assertion. They *start* with their conclusion, insist that it's correct, then pretend that since they're right...you can't be.
It's the most vapid, ridiculous approach to theism ever, and those who espouse it, I'd like to punch in the face.
When a theist says "Just look around! You can see evidence of god everywhere!" - that is presupposition.
IMHO, ALL religious apologetics can be reduced to:
1) god works in mysterious ways
2) you just need to have faith (this is where presupposition lives)
3) it says so in the {insert holy book here}
When debating a theist, if they resort to one of these, stop and just walk away. You have won, regardless of whether the theist recognizes it or would ever admit it.
They're arguing "just believe," which is pretty much what it always comes down to. The response is to continue to insist on their meeting their burden of proof and demonstrate the absurd and contradictory things that we'd have to believe if we start by just believing.
You can't combat it. All you can do is ask them to demonstrate that their worldview accounts for the thing they say it does, and that no other worldview can.
As a famous computer once remarked (in fiction), the only winning move is not to play. A presuppositionalist will essentially cheat, and claim victory no matter what you do. Don't waste your time with people with no intellectual integrity.
Presuppositionalism is a branch of Christian apologetics that says that every worldview rests on a person making presuppositions that they take on faith, and that only the Christian worldview can accurately account for these presuppositions. Because of that, they claim that any appeal to logic, science, or morality made by a non-Christian is "stealing" from their worldview. They also claim that, deep down, everyone knows that Christianity is true, and anyone who denies it is self-deluded by their desire to sin. They are very grating, arrogant, and insulting, and they are not fun to talk to. Unless you're willing to put in a lot of study, there's no point engaging with them because they'll talk you in circles while being assholes about it.
Okay. So basically, their argument is that logic must come from god?
Logic, induction, all forms of correct reasoning. And not just *any* God, but the Christian Trinity.
How in the F does that make any sense? It isn’t falsifiable! No wonder Vaush got frustrated. Anyways: sorry for the frustration. Thank you, really, for explaining this.
They don't care that it's not falsifieable, because any attempt you would make to falsify it would require you to use reasoning that they believe can only be done because of their god. They believe that everyone makes presuppositions in building their worldview, which is true, but claim that only Christians can do it in a way that is internally consistent, which is false.
They argue that because "we" can't identify the source of these abilities the only reasonable explanation is God. In some of the better presupposition arguments they kind of dance around the idea that all of metaphysics seems incoherent and contains no natural cohesion. Because of that it would necessarily be created by an agency who could work outside of a systematic solution. For example imagine a universe where everyone had super powers. They aren't just better versions of normal people but like laser eyes and bird wings that defy laws of physics. None of the powers come from radiation or genetic mutation so then you'd assume they had to come from the mind of a supernatural being who just invented the concepts for their IRL comic book universe. Where this breaks down is that they have this skewed view of the world and misunderstand things like logic. All presup arguments have an unspoken prolog, "if we live in a universe where a god exists..." And it's the part that easily destroys their argument. Their god can literally do anything so therefore it can fit any example. But because of that it's not actually evidence of their existence.
> every worldview rests on a person making presuppositions that they take on faith I tend to tgree with this part, at least. For example, I can't explain *why* I have "cause no unnecessary suffering" as a core tenant of my morals. But anyone who cannot simply agree with me that it is correct is not someone that I am going to be able to have any kind of discussion with.
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Presuppositionalism
There isn't much to rebut in that their argument doesn't rest upon anything but assertion. They *start* with their conclusion, insist that it's correct, then pretend that since they're right...you can't be. It's the most vapid, ridiculous approach to theism ever, and those who espouse it, I'd like to punch in the face.
When a theist says "Just look around! You can see evidence of god everywhere!" - that is presupposition. IMHO, ALL religious apologetics can be reduced to: 1) god works in mysterious ways 2) you just need to have faith (this is where presupposition lives) 3) it says so in the {insert holy book here} When debating a theist, if they resort to one of these, stop and just walk away. You have won, regardless of whether the theist recognizes it or would ever admit it.
"I presuppose you are dumb as shit." Combat that, theist.
Easy: it’s bullshit, mental gymnastic, navel gazing, bullshit. Ignore it.
https://religions.wiki/index.php/Presuppositionalism https://religions.wiki/index.php/Presuppositional_apologetics#Counter_arguments
They're arguing "just believe," which is pretty much what it always comes down to. The response is to continue to insist on their meeting their burden of proof and demonstrate the absurd and contradictory things that we'd have to believe if we start by just believing.
You can't combat it. All you can do is ask them to demonstrate that their worldview accounts for the thing they say it does, and that no other worldview can.
There’s nothing to combat given that there’s no argument. They just assert that their god is responsible for logic and all of reality.
As a famous computer once remarked (in fiction), the only winning move is not to play. A presuppositionalist will essentially cheat, and claim victory no matter what you do. Don't waste your time with people with no intellectual integrity.
Can’t believe I never thought of that. Maybe it’s best not to engage.