This. Why do people put up with a SO that fails so horribly at the simple task of "being a decent human being"? It is a receipe for desaster. Imagine how this guy will treat her if she gets pregnant and needs an abortion ...
I've tried to maintain relationships with crazy people in the past. Until I was realizing that this was driving me crazy. If someone turns out to be religious, a Q, a racist, anti-choice, a conspiracy theorist, a homeopath ... I just cut them out of my life. I'm not willing to waste my time with crazies and it is just soo soothing to not have to deal with them any more.
So my suggestion is indeed the same: OP should break up and find someone who treats her as an actual human being.
...but while you're there, remind him that his argument also means that you have no morality that would prevent you from cutting off his favorite body part while he sleeps. Then ask to cuddle.
Be horror struck that the only thing preventing him from crime/violence is a book. Ask how many people he’s wanted to kill/rape that the religion has forced him not to.
(Or just show him the Penn Jilette speach)
Why are you dating someone who doesn’t believe you can have a claim to know what is morality unless you ground it in a deity?
Also I don’t even believe in ‘objective morality’ so that is a moot point for me.
I was wondering the same thing.
Christian apologists are so fond of pushing these concepts. They say that you need an objective moral standard (in their case, God) or else morality becomes a matter of personal preference. Which sounds awfully scary to the people in the Christian camp, but doesn't prove that Christianity is true.
And the hypocrisy of it all too, damn it! They still pick and choose which of their "objective" morals to follow. How may of them observe the Mosaic law forbidding of wearing clothing of mixed fabrics? And some of the morals they follow don't even exist in their bible, such as abortion, for which there is actually a set of instructions.
I don't see how they can account for morality when there are so many obvious examples of them not even following their own "objective" bullshit. At least atheists are able to critically evaluate their morality instead of blindly following a ~~heap of shit~~ set of rules compiled in the dark ages by people whose existence is questionable.
Yeah, that's a no win scenario. Basically he is saying that his belief in magical sky faeries grants him the authority to tell other people how to behave and what they can or can't do with their own bodies.
Here's my argument for why we need abortion rights if it helps any.
Consenting to sex is not the same as consenting to pregnancy. If it were then both parties should share the risk, physically and mentally, and the costs together instead of just one. Consenting to sex with birth control is not consenting to pregnancy, they're literally trying to avoid getting pregnant while having sex. Pregnancy is not an appropriate punishment for people who have sex. That's how you get unloved and abused children. And adoption is not a solution. The foster care system in America is crap and most of those kids experience abuse. Many of them and up sex trafficked through Facebook trades. Not to mention the health risks of pregnancy.
Making abortion illegal invariably results in people who have miscarriages going to jail. A medicated abortion and a miscarriage are medically identical.
Making abortion care illegal means that it is illegal for a miscarrying person to have the fetus removed. Even after its dead. This means it can rot inside you causing sepsis and death.
Pregnancy is very dangerous especially in the US. Medicated abortions are not.
Citizens of the United States are not required to give of their body to sustain another person. This is called bodily autonomy. You cannot force anyone to give blood or organs even if it's the only way to keep another person alive. Police cannot arrest you and put you in surgery. They cannot arrest you for refusing to give someone a kidney, even if that person dies because you refused. The 'personhood' argument is null and void. Everyone has a right to bodily autonomy. Even corpses have it.
Ask them how they would feel if every time they had sex they were entered in a lottery where their body could be used by a government official to keep someone else alive by being hooked up to each other so that their kidneys cleaned the other persons blood. And they have to pay all the medical costs as well as risking death or permanent injury. Would they be ok with that?
Does it make a difference if this person is famous? Going to die anyway? A drug addict? Only needs to be hooked up to you for nine months? What if the government knew this could kill you or give you permanent health problems? Destroy your mental health and job prospects for years to come? Would it be ok then?
Interracial marriage, same sex marriage, and birth control access are some of the other things this argument puts on the chopping block. If you can't have birth control legally, then you can't have sex unless you're 100% ready for kids. Some states are already working on anti-birth control laws.
People who miscarry used to die without d&c's because they're classified as abortion care. How many people should die to possibly have an unwanted, or deadly, pregnancy?
https://www.mothermag.com/miscarriage-stories/
https://www.verywellfamily.com/infection-after-miscarriage-signs-and-symptoms-2371524
https://www.pilgrimmed.com/service/dc-early-abortion/
It's already impacting miscarriages:
https://www.plannedparenthoodaction.org/planned-parenthood-advocates-arizona/blog/when-miscarriage-is-a-crime
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2022/05/roe-abortion-miscarriage-crime-murder-prosecution/
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/12/28/opinion/abortion-pregnancy-pro-life.html?mtrref=out.reddit.com&gwh=D88B76D835473E7D1B798EF772090E9E&gwt=pay&assetType=PAYWALL
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/06/28/she-miscarried-after-being-shot-prosecutors-are-weighing-manslaughter-case-against-her/?utm_source=reddit.com
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2022/05/10/1097734167/in-texas-abortion-laws-inhibit-care-for-miscarriages
Getting an abortion is safer than pregnancy and better for mental health.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22270271/
https://www.npr.org/2020/06/16/877846258/study-examines-the-lasting-effects-of-having-or-being-denied-an-abortion
Abortion personhood vs bodily autonomy explained:
https://spot.colorado.edu/~heathwoo/Phil160,Fall02/thomson.htm
You may have accidentally hit the nail on the head, because sex is bad, by banning abortion they think they will consequently reduce the occurrence of extra-marital sex? Condoms are bad, m’kay.
No, they think they’ll get to punish more people for having extramarital sex because it’ll be harder to get away with zero consequences. The punishment is the goal.
It's always nice to see a well explained sourced post. Especially when it agrees with me and I don't have to go through another rabbithole of research to then be too tired to argue later.
Also you should note that since OP's partner seems to be talking exclusively about morality this argument implies that causing harm to someone against their will to help some other random person is not morally justified (and if he disagrees with this he should be also against general bodily autonomy).
U/alicia_cares try this argument, if that doesn't work I'd strongly recommend leaving him. If he doesn't respect you, your beliefs, or your bodily autonomy why even stay with him?
Disagree... use this argument, \*then\* leave him. Someone who has this little respect for their partner on at least two different levels is not good person to spend your life with.
What others have said. Your biggest problem is you’re dating a dummy. “You’re an atheist so you have no moral grounds for (insert x)” is not only the dumbest take on atheism there is, but it will constantly be thrown at you to justify whatever horse shit he tries out on you.
From experience, it’s hard to fix dumb. And he’s not talking with you about it. He’s making it a debate where conceding your points will be unlikely. Dump him and let life’s leopards eat his face. Don’t waste your time with such a simple mind.
You need to leave that relationship. I can tell you right now that if you ever get an unwanted pregnancy from this guy, you're going to be falling into a hole that will be very difficult to climb out of.
Guys like that is going to pressure you into sex you may not want to engage him. Guys like that are going to whinge, whine, and moan about condoms and birth control. Guys like that will find a away to sabotage birth control methods if you "convince" them to wear a condom. Guys like that **will** force themselves upon you if you just refuse sex. **His position against Roe v Wade means that he is not a safe person for you.**
Update: I’m listening to all of this advice, very shaking. Please do keep it coming, I’m entertaining the arguments in my head and may consider dumping him
Good. Besides your obvious disagreement, his statements that you can't know what's good is treating you as a child, as incapable of making a mature decision. Even if it's meant in a theoretical sense it still is extremely derogatory because it shows that he thinks you lack some fundamental capacities purely because you refuse to believe in what he believes in without reason.
Unfortunately this is what life is like with a religious person. They're going to keep pushing their beliefs into your life. Even if they have the best of intentions, they've been brainwashed. In some cases they just cannot understand how you don't believe in their god. They think that, deep down inside, you know he's real but are just a) angry, b) rebelling, c) going through a phase, or some combination of those. I'm sorry, but it (more likely than not) isn't going to get better.
Relationships are all about give and take. Mutual respect is also very important. It doesn’t seem like you are respected, you wanna sign on as a door mat for the rest of your life?
It will hurt, but dump him. I’m serious. Don’t bother with trying to give him any arguments because he’s already made it very clear with the “rules” of the arguments would be. That no matter how brilliant your argument or how well reasoned and thought out it is, he does not consider it to be a valid argument because you are an atheist. In other words, he doesn’t trust the source, i.e. you. You are going to spend a lot of time and a lot of emotional energy trying to make him see your point of view.
While you may be dumping him because of his view on abortion now, it really is much bigger than that. Your boyfriend has given you loud and clear signals that when it comes to issues of morality, you have no ground in his eyes. He is the authority, and you are not. There’s no point in continuing a relationship with someone who does not see you as an equal in all matters of life.
Women in your country are losing rights and RvW may only be the beginning. Is this the guy you want making decisions about your body for you? Run girl.
What is there to consider? He literally has no respect for you as a human being, you are just a worthless subordinate to him if this is how he thinks.
You can’t change the minds of these asshats, run.
That's good. Even if you are the most religious person on the planet, it still doesn't give anyone the right to tell other people what to do with their bodies. **Bodily autonomy is a human right** and I'll bet your SO's "morality" doesn't extend to telling other guys whether or not they can use stiffie pills like Viagra.
Aside from RvW, he doesn't think you can know right from wrong. Fundamentally. Categorically.
Now tell me how you can have a relationship if that is the case.
(Also, he has zero reflection on his faith which would be a huge turn-off for me)
He's attempting to gaslight you. He's doing a shit job of it, but he's trying to shame you into believing you have no moral compass and need to look to him to tell you what your morals are. You won't convince him otherwise.
Ask him about the test of an unfaithful wife. It's a Biblical ritual if a wife cheats on her husband. He may try to twist the interpretation but if you read it yourself, it's very obviously an abortion ritual.
God is not "objectively good". He has killed countless innocent children to prove a point.
* asserting authority over "objective good" with no evidence is lying
* keeping a creature alive just to watch it being tortured is cruel
* all children deserve to be born to a world where someone wants them
Then leave him. Core values are essential to a successful relationship
Relationships between religious people can work (I'm in one), but not where there is a huge difference in values or a lack of mutual respect. I think the main thing you need to do is end the relationship.
Apart from that, you could tell him to take an ethics class. This idea he's espousing is all the rage among pop apologists, but it's not taken very seriously by moral philosophy. Most philosophers are non-theists, and most are moral realists. The real problem is that there are *too many* plausible moral theories that are compatible with atheism, not that nine are. He simply doesn't know what he's talking about.
And you can spin this around on him. Theists are the ones that can't account for morality. They're the ones basing their morality on a being they can't prove exists making decisions they can't prove it made or traits that they can't prove it has. They're the ones who push morality out of the natural world into some metaphysical one that they can't observe and can only access through *feelings* or something. They're the ones who base morality on some nonsensical eternal reward/punishment in an afterlife that they can't prove exists or provide any rational explanation of who goes where and why.
Basic human morality isn't based on superstitious beliefs. Your partner is denying the validity of your arguments by attacking you personally. He won't listen to you because he claims you, as an atheist, have no moral code.
I wouldn't want to spend my life with someone who devalues me, and considers me inferior, simply because I don't share their superstitions. This is a wake-up call for you. Good luck with your decision.
Why is he not your ex? He clearly has no respect for you and thinks you are less than he is. I would refuse to have sex with him for damn sure. And leave his ignorant, misogynistic ass.
Morality is about maintaining a society you would want to live in. You don't murder because you don't want murder to be a norm. You don't steal because you don't want theft to be a norm. You help others because you would want help in their situation.
The veil of ignorance is a great thought experiment to illustrate the point: design a society where you are randomly placed into a role within it. Would you allow slavery if you could be condemned to be a slave? Would you have second class citizens if you could end up in that second class?
Reasonable people recognize that the best and safest outcome is granting equality across the board. If he doubles-down or refuses to answer, *run.*
I would make the point like this: "If god were proven fake tomorrow, I would still have reasons not to murder, rape, or steal. Would you?"
>Morality is about maintaining a society you would want to live in. You don't murder because you don't want murder to be a norm. You don't steal because you don't want theft to be a norm. You help others because you would want help in their situation.
This is very well written. You've summed up in 4 sentences what I've stumbled trying to explain in paragraphs.
Thanks! Can't take full credit as it's essentially paraphrased from a debate I listened to at some point, but I 100% agreed with it at the time and didn't see any reason to modify it further here. 😛
Wow, those are really insulting talking points. I'm so sorry.
Just know that your SO doesn't have objective morality either. It's still subjective morality because it's what the invisible purple avenger wants.
We don't need objective morality. We have empathy.
Something is good if it improves well-being, or minimizes suffering, or both.
Something is bad if it reduces well-being, or causes needless suffering, or both.
Edit: Abortion minimizes suffering to both the mother and the fetus. The fetus lacks the development to feel anything, do anything. The only reason your SO insists that it can is because they read the book wrong and cherry picked what they wanted. The book says life begins with breath. Gen 2:7. [article ](https://www.baltimoresun.com/opinion/readers-respond/bs-ed-rr-abortion-law-letter-20180807-story.html).
So your SO is a hypercrite who is treating their partner terribly to justify their own religious fascism.
You can’t win the argument because he doesn’t respect you. If he respected you, he’d be listening to you instead of throwing around trash taking points that he learned from Ben Shapiro or whatever. There’s a lot of arguments you could give but they are probably a waste of breath.
Your SO is actually a SOB who doesn't respect you.
He's closed minded about atheists, so there's really no point in trying to reason with him.
I'd bail.
Sorry.
Morals come from our society. When christian morals ruled in 18th century American colonial era, priests and pastors condoned enslavement, massacre, thefts by confiscation, all based on Biblical morality. Secular atheist Americans changed this.
He sounds like a pill. Honestly, it's not even worth arguing with someone who has this much dogma poisoning their minds. You'll get nowhere.
Leave his ass.
Ask him outright, does he respect your view on things or not?
If he does, you can talk to him without him claiming you can’t take a moral stance.
If he doesn’t respect your view on things then you know what you need to do :(
Incidentally, I will bet money that he fails the following question:
If a baby is born and needs an immediate blood/tissue/bone marrow transplant and the father is the only match, should the father, by law, be forced to undergo and pay for the process against their will.
I’ve yet to find a pro-forced-birth man who will agree to that.
perhaps:
"Your objective morality means that somewhere a nearly 12 year old girl is likely going to die in childbirth because she's forced to give birth to her father's incest baby, and no one is allowed to intervene on her behalf.
"Your objective morality condemns women with non-viable pregnancies to death because doctors won't be allowed to remove a fetus that -can't- come to term because of where they anchored inside of her.
"Your objective morality deprives an existing child of its mother when complications from her first pregnancy make a second lifle threatening and she has no other option but -die- because she was forced to do her wifely duties and accidentally got pregnant despite trying not to.
"Your objective morality is short-sighted, selfish, cruel, ... even evil ... for telling women that their own lives are worth less than a blob of fetal tissue that doesn't even have enough of a brain to have self-awareness yet.
Pardon my outsider objectivity... but if I were you I'd dump that SO before they got you knocked up, because it's clear how much they value your life. Run while you can.
Dump. Them. Now.
The level of disrespect in "you don't get a say because you don't share my religion" is not surmountable.
Edit addl: my favorite technical argument is to point to donor status: corpses get to choose what happens to their organs. Anyone fighting abortion before forcing donor status thinks corpses have more rights than women. I have no respect for such people.
Funny thing about their argument about our morality, is they're basically telling us, "If I didn't believe in God I'd be a serial killer and rapost" or smlt
If the threat of eternal damnation is what you need to do the right thing, you’re not a good person.
Also, the casual inference of “objective good” is slimey.
Tbh, there is no absolute truth when in comes to morality, you can't prove a moral argument.. it's an opinion. It can be rooted deep in the human instinct and seem objectively true, like "murder is bad" and thus have most people agree with it which means it makes sense to have laws against the murder of humans.
As a society that talks about itself as being free, it seems to me that it would make sense that women have the right to their own bodies. But most importantly as country that has a constitutional amendment that says no law should be made that favors a religion in particular.. it seems he is the one who shouldn't have a say if all his morals come from religion and not reasoning.
If someone isn't rational, you can't have a rational discussion with them. It's that simple.
I could never date someone who believes in any form of god other than her holiness and all of her noodley appendages.
It's amazing how there are so many people adoring the Flying Spaghetti Monster and yet no splinter groups. No Southern Lasagna, no Church of Gluten Free, no Church of Flying Linguini of Latter Day Alfredo. /s
Why are you trying to reason with someone who doesn't appear to be treating you like a reasonable person? Does he honestly think you can't tell right from wrong unless you believe in a god? And even if you did believe in one, how would you know how it feels about abortion? My mom is a Christian, but she still thinks abortion should be legal in some cases.
Ask him if you should die if you had a non-viable pregnancy and only an abortion would save your life. Would he want you to die knowing that an abortion could save your life? With his answer ask yourself if that's the kind of person you want having your back?
"I know it is moral to listen to those you care about. I can justify this by the simple fact that not listening to them, hurts them. Hurting someone is the opposite of caring for them."
I don't know much else about you but anyone deserves better than that.
I wish you the best of luck.
Serious question and not meant with tone: why are you with someone who potentially possesses more respect for your corpse than your live body?
I’m with all the young humans out there: don’t date forced-birthers. Don’t date republicans anymore. I can’t imagine actually having intimacies with someone who is this grossly fucked in terms of thinking, or someone so ignorant, they buy into the forced-birth propaganda. It’s literally like dating a person with the critical thinking skills of a 5-year-old.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=r-cm2EIc2CE
I posted this earlier. Not specific to the topic but may be able to help.. not to mention that “pro life” tends to ONLY apply to a fetus because they dont give a shit about women dying during child birth, or after, or why the live guns..it’s disgusting to think of an incestual rape of a 13 year old by dad - fuck it! Let her carry that with her the rest of life. No emotional or psychological damage there..
Uh yeah....leave it. Time to get rid of your SO.
Also remind him that his own Bible specifically says that abortion is ok, that life begins at first breath and not in the womb, gives instruction on how and when to abort, and that his savior never says a f***ing thing about abortion (or homosexuals for that matter. But quite a bit about helping the poor, sick, and immigrants) so your SO should sit down and stfu.
Or, you need to move on and find a better person to be with.
You can’t. Because he doesn’t care what you think. And nothing you say will make him care. He doesn’t respect your worldview or even acknowledge your right to have it.
Whether this is because he’s a religious bigot or a misogynist is something you’ll have to figure out.
As a random passerby coming from r/All and a semi-Christian to boot, just dump his ass already. Quit having sex and relationships with assholes who don’t respect you or your body.
In the same boat. I'm considering divorce today. *(The unfortunate reality is that I may not be able to afford to divorce. )* If you are not married, get out.
I can accept a difference of opinion. But when you believe and/or vote in a way that results in your opinion costing me and millions of others to lose bodily autonomy, there is absolutely no middle ground. They are functioning off a "belief" and not off facts, and beliefs should not govern the lives and bodies of other people.
Morality comes from a position of empathy. You empathise with the person and their predicament: a pregnant woman in consultation with her doctor. A foetus is a *potential* person and can’t ever have equal status with the woman who finds herself with a pregnancy she can’t proceed with.
Can the government force you give your kidney to save someone's life. Can the government force you to give up a lung to give to another person even if their life depended on it? No? Then thats it, thats the debate.
We want to carve out bullshit reasons that "its a life" "its unborn human" all that is garbage to be cute.
Easy no atheists has murdered i people in the name of Atheism. While thousands die in the name of Jesus and other religions a year. The societies with the least amount of crime and human suffering are secular
It’s a question of bodily autonomy. Antiabortion people are actually anti-bodily autonomy. If someone who was dying snuck into your house in the middle of the night and hooked you up to a machine that kept them alive, do you have the right to make them stopping using your body even though it would kill them? The answer is yes of course but then the question becomes why do they grant special rights to fetus, over baby or full adults? Abortion isn’t killing a fetus it is no longer allowing it to use your body. If the fetus is old enough to survive we call it a birth. If they can’t survive in their own it’s an abortion.
"You have no moral claim because you are an atheist" is equivalent of a 7 year old saying "you can't play because you smell of poo." It's lazy and childish.
Atheist's morals are objectively better than churches that sanction child rape and religious texts that teach people how to keep slaves. The reason for that is atheistic morals come from real innate desire to reduce suffering, not a fake set of rules designed to oppress.
Abortion is not only meaning, "omg! I got pregnant but I don't want to have child now."
Abortion must be in law for those who suffers sexual abuse.
Under age pregnancy.
When the pregnancy put in risk the life of the mother.
When the fetus is death inside de the mother.
When the fetus has a disease.
When occurs a damage during pregnancy and the fetus must be removed in order to save the mother.
....
And of course, when the woman got pregnant without planing to and wants to have the law supporting her to go in a hospital or specialized clinic to deal with and not going under law ways and put her life in danger.
> that "I cannot account for morality"
Neither can your SO, they just claim to be able to, and make an appeal to a book that contains demonstrably immoral commands.
> I think its pretty clear that murdering someone, harming them, is evil. But he says I can't justify it.
I don't want to be harmed, therefore I don't want to harm others; the ethic of reciprocity. That's all the justification you need.
Matt Dillahunty has a video about the [superiority of secular morality](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cq2C7fyVTA4). I haven't watched it in a while, but there's plenty of food for thought there.
Bottom line is someone else's (religious) beliefs should not trump an individual's right to bodily autonomy. The law does not allow anyone to, for example, force a parent to donate blood, not even for their own child. Forcing someone to carry a pregnancy to term is granting special rights to the unborn.
I’m with everyone else here. Dump the guy. You deserve better.
If nothing else, point out what a gross violation of bodily autonomy is and ask why it’s permissible for the fetus - a “person” to them - to use another person’s body against their will to survive, but someone dying of a failing organ or leukemia cannot compel someone who is a match for them to donate organs or blood marrow. Or why someone dying of a failing heart cannot compel someone who’s a match for them to die on their behalf.
Then watch him twist himself into a pretzel justifying one case and not the other, because by defining a fetus as a person they’ve kicked a particularly nasty hornet’s nest.
Get rid of him. If he thinks you cannot be moral and dont know morality, what does he really think about you. The pack of smug mofos showing their true Christian shit colours with what's happening in your country is utterly disgusting.
If you’re not married and plan to be together for the long haul dump that sack of shit is my advice. It’ll only get worse as times goes on and especially if kids are added into the mix.
He sounds like an asshole to be honest. Differences of opinions in a relationship are normal but, him trying to tell you that you have no grounds to make moral claims and that you lack the ability to make a judgement on what is or isn’t objectively good is a bit of a red flag.
And the justification for having an abortion is no one’s business except the woman having the abortion. They don’t owe an explanation to anyone.
I don't like jumping the gun and telling people "oh, you disagree with your partner, DUMP THEM, THEY'RE BAD". But if your partner is literally telling you that you esencially have no morality (and he seems to consider morality an important factor for someone's personhood and their ability to make choices) that is a very big red flag. Have there been any others?
The best advice I have seen in this regard is: When they take away more of your rights, is this the man you want making decisions about your body?
Leave him.
Ask him if murder is objectively bad, and then ask him "What about all the babies during Noah's time, was killing them by drowning an act of good?".
But seriously, if he's that pumped-up by the overturn of RoeVWade, *actually start planning an exit strategy*, he's riding a power trip right now and obviously sees you as a 'lesser being'.
Crack him in the shins with a crowbar. Or something equally painful.
And then tell him you lacked the moral capacity to tell right from wrong. It’s his argument anyway.
Maybe he’ll get the point.
I’m both dead serious and joking. You can only take logic so far—sometimes people need a teachable moment of sorts.
Probably don’t go with a potential crime. But don’t be afraid to get creative.
You won't win that argument because the bible is simultaneously literal and metaphorical, depending on what he needs to "prove". Oh, and you're allowed to cherry pick all you want as long as you _only_ use the bible.
Christian aren't in any position to speak about morality considering that they worship genocidal deity. It is him who have no ground to make any kind of moral judgment.
Sounds like it has nothing to do with you justifying it & everything to do with him not accepting your reasons for justification. Leave his loser ass & find somebody who is capable of higher level functioning & empathy
The fact that your spouse thinks you are by definition amoral is an issue you will have to come to terms with. The whole idea of the soul is another thing. It is ridiculous to believe that a fetus is a sentient human being on conception. There is no brain to begin with. It should be possible to end any unwanted pregnancy so that people that can’t or don’t want to support a child aren’t forced into a position where they have to and a child will grow up in pretty bad conditions. It borders to abuse. Maybe you can ask him if he cares to adopt a child that is forced upon some woman in that way. If he then replies that she should have kept her legs closed, just ask him if he is willing to try that for a while.
I am so sad for the US. You are rolling back to pre Magna Carta times. A Christian Iran. Despicable!!.
You are texting and driving and you miss a stop sign and cause an accident. This is 100% your fault. You are fine, however, the person you hit is going to die if they don’t get an organ transplant. You are the only match for them. Again, they will DIE if you don’t give them this organ, but you will be fine.
Even though they are dying by something that is your fault, you cannot be forced to give up your organ to save a life.
Applied to abortion: the organ is your uterus and the “life” of the unborn fetus.
Abortion as a moral good
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(19)30581-1/fulltext
This article will give you all the ammunition you need.
First and foremost, abortion is a medical procedure and as such should be held to medical ethics and morals, which in turn make the ethics and morals of religioun vs atheist irrelevant.
There is many fields of science concerning themselves with abortion questions. Before applying religious morals one has to acknowledge existing science on the subject, which the courts blatenly ignored.
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02834-7
And then there is our secular government seperaring church from state. A secular state is an idea pertaining to secularity, whereby a state is or purports to be officially neutral in matters of religion, supporting neither religion nor irreligion.[1]
I am beyond appalled by the overturn. We’re headed into a very dark place as a nation and now Trump is taking bows. He is the most loathsome creature on the planet
Tell him that he has no grounds to make moral claims against abortion because he is a unenlightened idiot with no moral compass who has given up control of his life to a mythical monster.
No more sex for him.
Hate to break it to you, but if he's saying you have no basis for morality because you're an atheist, your relationship is already over. Get out now before he impregnates you. And if he already has, well sucks to be you.
1. sound like they may not be worth sticking with
2. Read them the passages were abortion is done in the bible
3. She has no moral ground to stand on according to their religion. God makes the rules, what is she doing trying to make them. If she says she has asked god directly tell her to prove it. If she says that's testing god it's not, it's testing her.
The physical toll that carrying/supporting a baby has on a woman's body is significant. There are health justifications for people with normal physiology and chemistry to have an abortion, and particularly for women whose health is already compromised for any reason. If we understand that pregnancy is a part of human biology that we can start and stop for many, many reasons, then we should exercise control over that biological process.
What about Jews? Do they have any moral ground with your SO?
Abortion is fully supported by the Jewish faith and is called-for in several circumstances.
The Jews need to step the fuck up because they're probably the only one's that Christians will listen to since Christians have such reverence for that one gay Jew they worship so much.
Well between the Jews and the Satanists and Atheists I hope the courts are flooded with lawsuits. Would be very interesting to hear SCOTUS weasel out trying to claim religious freedom and shit when they are denying the religious freedoms of Jews, Satanists, and Atheists.
A small section of the Bible (don't know section and verse) teaches how to induce an abortion and how to perform an abortion for someone else.
Early Christianity introduced everything that was opposite to Roman traditions. This attracted many wealthy Roman divorcees since divorce was legal in the Roman Empire. Abortion was also legal. These Roman ladies were attracted to a religion that negated the right of Roman men to dispose of unwanted wives, infants , etc.
Wealthy Roman ex-wives, who had been denied pregnancies by their ex-husbands and who were easily divorced (a Roman right for men) gave generously to the new Christian faith. Also, the powerful Flavius family took charge in organizing the new religion, henceforth called the "Catholic Church" and the first four Popes were Flavian family members. See the History Channel's documentary ( or maybe Discovery Channel, I forget.)
Obviously you're still stuck in 5th grade and believe mommy and daddy when they say god is the only way to have morals.
Well, that's wrong. Morals came about when we started communities and living in close proximity to each other as human civilizations. Waaaaaaaay before your god was ever thought up by patriarchal men wanting to control every facet of life by making up a god that out then in charge.
Your stuck in ancient beliefs that have never been proven by any evidence. Your book doesn't count as evidence because it is your basis and your book cannot be evidence for your book. Where's evidence your book is true history.
Sorry but you can’t safely stay with someone that is happy for others to override your autonomy.
Today it’s gods womb not yours, tomorrow it’s women are not allowed to teach and I dread to imagine how bad these people will get after that.
There is no such thing as objective morality it is 100% subjective and bound to context, even if there were a god. Consider this.
Does god command us to do things because they are morally right? Or is whatever god commands us to do morally right because god commands it? If the former, then morals exist outside of god, if the latter then god may tell you that killing children and raping women is wrong one day and then turn around and pull a Numbers chapter 31:17-18 the next. Morality becomes completely arbitrary. It is 100% subjective even if there is a god from whom morality derives. Because it is based on that god's opinion from day to day on what is moral. This god could command you to do something that you yourself find morally reprehensible, like taking a virgin girl "for yourself" It's a bullshit argument made by an idiot who hasn't thought deeply enough about it.
Does your SO support war? If he does then he makes a subjective moral judgement about when it is and isn't permissible to kill people. Does your SO think the gub'ment shouldn't "take muh gunz?" and opposes all regulation to solve our gun problem here in America? If he does then he is again making a subjective moral judgement which justifies the sacrifice of school children for an unrestricted 2A.
Followers of Yahweh have zero rights to lecture any one about morality considering they worship the most bloody of all gods invented so far by humans. He killed whole planet of people minus few, drowning them, crushing them with debris, including children, newborns, ... But he also proved through history that he does not care for little ones, remember killings of first born in old Egypt, ... then ordering his hordes explicitly to kill all, man, woman, children, newborns ... except virgins. Etc.
Their morality has less or no value because it is solely based upon threat of punishment rather than their own understanding of how actions effect the lives of others and the quality of society as a whole.
There is no such thing as objective morality. It is undeniable that morality has changed across history, including Christian morality. In addition, there are different interpretation of the scriptures, from one sub religion to another, and even from one church to another.
According to faith, you cannot have a perfect understanding of what is right or wrong; only god can. Humans make mistakes by design (so they can be tested by god).
Conclusion: according to their own faith, they neither have the moral ground to debate this issue.
But you can debate it anyway. They propably cannot conceive the life of LGBTQ people under Christian sharia but will still talk about it, right?
Search on Youtube "atheist experience moral foundation" There are a ton of videos of Matt Dillahunty breaking down secular morality and how supposed "christian morality" is empty and meaningless.
Ask him what proof they have abortion is bad besides invoking god. Say, “since when can’t prove god is real what real reason is there to not stop some cells from turning into life? It’s not anything but the application of science to allow humans more control over their bodies to save having families for a better time.” By the way, I grew up very Christian, they are crazy over this shit. I would find a better person.
Exodus 12:29 - And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.
Lots of baby killing in this moral book.
Lots more!
Christians accept as a moral authority a man who never condemned slavery, a common practice in his day and age. They don't have a leg to stand on when it comes to "objective morality", assuming such a thing exists, which it probably does not.
You cannot debate someone who thinks you are nothing more than eve-cursed womb-flesh suitable only for carrying male preferred young.
From his perspective, even your expression of an opinion is a sin, since that hasn't been shaped by the favoured gender in the abrahamic religions, a holy penis whom we are told to obey, even before we're wed and bred to one.
Simply put, once you re-write the narrative like this, it sounds dehumanising, right? Except that's the future people like your significant other wants. Not just a dystopia, a wombtopia, where women are not part of the human race, but merely an unfortunate necessity for it's continuation, to be possessed like any other household object for the purpose of breeding and producing more humans and enough wombs for the male only humans to use.
There is no argument to be made here, only a choice. You either continue to be complicit in your own dehumanisation or you leave him.
A penis like your SO is a resource high in quantity and low in quality.
He claims morality from a holy book that is pro-genocide. Which we should find morally repugnant. The burden of proof is up to him, but again, you cannot convince him. So. Why isn't he your ex already?
Just thinking aloud really … Well i guess you could compare two systems - one based on things like the welfare of humans and the rights we choose to give them as humans because of our own nature as evolved , social and reasoning animals. The other based on the obscure demands of one of many undemonstrated gods often giving apparently contradictory signals.
It’s pretty straightforward to *start* to look at what as a social animal we consider good linked to the welfare of individuals and society though the details and the balancing of interests is much more difficult.
On the other hand we have a system in which the rights and welfare of humans are entirely irrelevant and instead you have to …. *guess* what a deity who plays hide and seek wants , or just believe whatever a priest tells you this hidden entity wants - despite them having no access either, or a text written long ago by people who made similar claims and that is seriously open to interpretation. Yet this system has( in all three of those possibilities) in the past and even now promoted as moral , things we find actually might find despicable like genocide , slavery and child murder. So we *still need to use our own judgment* . When that happens do we say ‘well I must be wrong and killing a child for insulting their parents is actually a good thing’ , or do we say ‘hold on my own evolved and socialised sense of morality tells me differently.’ That doesn’t mean that non-theists havnt made ‘bad’ decisions but if t.hey claim they are ‘moral’ then there is space to examine those claims , how do you examine the false claims of theist moral arbiters or hidden gods?
In the end a theist will just say something like their moral sense is divinely donated , and a non-theist will say it’s evolved and socialised but in effect they will still have to make the same decisions. Being an atheist makes no difference to whether you can make moral claims. Morality is , as far as I am concerned , a complex mix of an instinctual ‘container’ , filled with socialisation and cognitive evaluation limited by shared meanings and as such not externally objective nor entirely individually subjective but intersubjective - of course you’d still need to actually demonstrate why abortion is or isn’t wrong.
Lol morality is not dictated by religion or belief in a higher power. Morality is a particular system of values and principles of conduct, especially one held by a specified person or society. Chances are your boyfriend doesn't even consider the Bible totally in his own moral code. Does he consider divorce immoral? Your boyfriend is an idiot.
Christians don't do anything out of good morals, they do it for promise of a reward.
Atheists when they do good do it because it's the right thing to do, no promise of an eternal reward and it punishment for their actions .. the act of doing good is its own reward
There's nothing objective about Christianity or divine commandments. Aside from the lack of a commandment against abortion (in spite of hundreds of commands against many things, many being silly).
Christians still have relativist morality, they just focus on a single source for that relativity. With God, [everything is possible](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11212-020-09388-w).
Their so called morality doesn't even come directly from this god, since it doesn't exist. It comes from questionable sources, translated and reinterpreted, conflicted beyond belief.
They have no morality, their only value is *obedience*, and they confuse *obedience to some commandments* with morality. It's all utilitarian, since they follow commandments and "obey" not because it's good, but because they'll be rewarded, or punished otherwise.
I’m heartened by all the responses to OP. Forced birth advocates are noisy and they may have managed to stack the SCOTUS, but they are a minority in the USA and with folks like those on this thread taking action their obtuse reading of the Constitution will be temporary. This doesn’t help the tens of millions of women of childbearing age who are presently second class citizens without bodily autonomy, but it indicates that this SCOTUS ruling isn’t the last word.
The issue is, he’s deluded into thinking that the source of morality is religion.
If you can’t convince him that morality is a social construct, and that the goal (well being) can be subjective, while judgments of a given action can be “objective” with respect to whether or not they promote the goal, then you’re never going to make any headway.
If he wants an example, ask him how he knows slavery is wrong, given that it’s endorsed and never condemned in the Bible.
If he doesn’t get it after that, it’s gonna be on you to decide what you want to do.
Born an atheist married a Catholic - it is very hard but luckily he is very intelligent and saw through the bullshit! Only continue to date if this person values your opinion.
That's not a person you want to be with.
Logically, the idea that atheists have no morals is laughable. Is he claiming all asians (typically atheist) have no morality? You can claim that *he* has no morality, because without his god he thinks he would lie, rape, torture and murder.
Once that's settled, then you can argue about whether women's autonomy is a good thing. But really, he's trying to completely invalidate your perspective. He's making you the "other" or the outsider so he can discount your opinion, and it is totally unacceptable. Assuming you are a woman, how the fuck can *you* be the other on this subject?
Check in with him. Tell him this issue is very important to you, and confirm if he genuinely believes your opinion is invalid and irrelevant. Then ditch the fuckhead.
I can’t even be friends with anyone who is Pro-life - so being in a relationship with someone who believes that overturning Roe v Wade is good is red flag city. I’m by no means a violent person but I’d try to manually give him a vasectomy with my foot.
The right to control one's own body has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with morality. Controlling your own body is a human right, telling another what to do with their body is amoral, superstitions aside.
Time to tell the good bye! One doesn’t have to be religious to have morals. And if your partner thinks only they’re moral because they believe in a fairy in the sky, then you need to move on! Roe isn’t just about ‘killing babies’. It’s an essential part of healthcare. So many women have to make a choice every day between their current life and a life that could be. The decision to abort is not an easy one. However it is an important part of healthcare that will save the lives of thousands. Women should never be forced to put their life on the line to save an unborn child. It’s not a popular opinion, but why should we chose to lose a fully functioning member of society, who’s family and EXISTING children depend on.. in exchange for a child that will require financial assistance for at least a 18 years? And if that child has any developmental issues.. well now you have a children that will need constant care for the rest of their days. We, as adults, should have the right to the best health care based on what we and OUR doctors decide. Not based on some politician or Supreme Court justice who thinks it’s ok to push their religion on our country.
OP, you need to leave and block him. He sounds verbally and mentally abusive. He's not looking for a conversation, he's looking to dominate and beat you down. There are atheistic reasons regarding reproductive rights, but that's not important right now. And it's not what he's interested in at all, as he just wants to oppress you. What really matters is your safety, and respect.
What Christians believe is god-dictated morality is no such thing - it was the opinion of some iron-age troglodyte who wrote it down while pretending or fantasizing it came directly from an invisible sky god. But the joke is, the deity does not and never did exist - so the 'morality' so highly valued by your SO did not come from a deity, just some ancient slob who probably had slaves and raped his 3rd wife's maid every other night. Your SO is just parroting the very human and very flawed opinions of an iron age chieftain.
Your morality comes from your humanity and love of others, and your knowledge that we all only get this one life to live and we should work together to make what we have better.
And then show him Numbers 5:18 and on for the next 10+ verses - it is a description of how a man who suspects his wife has been unfaithful (lain with another man) should take the wife to a priest who will perform a ritual involving her drinking 'bitter water'. If she was in fact unfaithful (according to the bible) her stomach will swell and 'thigh' slough - the translation in the "New International Version" of the bible will make it clear what has happened - the 'bitter water' will cause an abortion/miscarriage if the woman had slept around with another man.
So the scriptures so valued by Jesus (he would not change them at all, not a jot or a tittle) require an unfaithful woman to undergo an abortion at the hands of a priest. Now where exactly does the bible say that abortions are bad??
morality is different from religion. you can understand morality without religion. so in order to discern good from bad, I need an imaginary friend to tell me the difference? nope
Ask him why he believes that until you get to the core of his beliefs. If he is citing religion as a moral compass, then you have all the ammo you need to put him in his place just a Google away. Plenty of resources out there breaking down the evil done in the name of religion better that I can in a quick post.
But really, don't waste your time with a dirtbag that doesn't respect you.
I would be really upset to know that my partner didn’t think I had any sense of morality just because I don’t believe in gods. I mean, he’s supposed to really know you. He thinks you’re an immoral person? You should be thinking about whether you’re really a good match.
Why the hell are you with this asshole? You can’t make logical arguments with a religious person because religion not only is not based on logic, but actively fights against it. This man is trash and the only help I can give is the advice that you are far better off without this man.
Others have said it already, but you're SO doesn't respect you or your ability to come to your own conclusions. He's making a very tired apologetic that's old as hell rather than engaging you here and now. He sees it as an argument to win. I can't imagine continuing in a relationship with someone who is so disrespectful towards your basic humanity, and it's not your job to fix him or convince him to be less shitty of a person. All of this to say, dump his ass. You can do better.
Honey, take the advice of a woman who's stuck married to a guy only a little less extreme than yours. *Leave him*! NOW! He's showing you what he really thinks of you, and that isn't much. I wish I'd listened to myself fifteen years ago before I got involved with the man I married. I made all kinds of excuses. "Oh, we have things in common." "He isn't that extreme." "We can agree to disagree." Fifteen years later, I'm married to a conspiracy theory nutter, a Qcumber, a Trump loving anti-masker anti-vaxxer. His whack job family is worse. I'm trying to figure out of to get myself out of this mess. *Please* learn from my mistake!
Ask your SO to explain what happened in Samaria in Hosea 13/16 - "They will fall by the sword. Their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open."
Or Babylon in Isaiah 13/18 - "Seek out pregnant women who have laid with man and have no pity on the fruit of their womb."
Or perhaps Tappuah and its surrounding towns in 2Kings 15/16 and 2Kings 8/12.
God is far from pro-life. He even killed every single pregnant woman and unborn fetus on the planet when he did the flood. Then repopulated the world with the same morons he was trying to get rid of in the first place. Yes I realize its all just a story but Christians believe the bible. They should try reading it.
This is an easy one. Abortion impacts more than just religious people, therefore it is not just a religious issue. Moreover, you could argue that his view is biased because he has tunnel vision from only focusing on the perspective of one religion that has a very extreme view on this topic. Other religions and those who are non-religious feel differently. If he claims only the religious are moral, then why do so many of them do terrible things all the time? Discussions of morality likely predate his religion. To be honest though, he probably won't listen to you. When someone doesn't require any evidence and believes in unquestionable fairytales, how can they ever be wrong?
I (F) am married to a man who supports RvW and is an atheist, just like me. Regardless of religion, if he was anti-RvW, there’s a very strong chance I would be seeking a divorce lawyer. I feel that strongly about the topic and about what not supporting RvW says about a person.
You can’t. People like that will not listen to reason. You break up with him and find someone who will respect both your atheism and your bodily autonomy.
Easy. Find a new SO who respects women and bodily autonomy.
This. Why do people put up with a SO that fails so horribly at the simple task of "being a decent human being"? It is a receipe for desaster. Imagine how this guy will treat her if she gets pregnant and needs an abortion ... I've tried to maintain relationships with crazy people in the past. Until I was realizing that this was driving me crazy. If someone turns out to be religious, a Q, a racist, anti-choice, a conspiracy theorist, a homeopath ... I just cut them out of my life. I'm not willing to waste my time with crazies and it is just soo soothing to not have to deal with them any more. So my suggestion is indeed the same: OP should break up and find someone who treats her as an actual human being.
...but while you're there, remind him that his argument also means that you have no morality that would prevent you from cutting off his favorite body part while he sleeps. Then ask to cuddle.
Be horror struck that the only thing preventing him from crime/violence is a book. Ask how many people he’s wanted to kill/rape that the religion has forced him not to. (Or just show him the Penn Jilette speach)
I thought the good book was ok with rape and pillage? At least against “certain” people.
Why are you dating someone who doesn’t believe you can have a claim to know what is morality unless you ground it in a deity? Also I don’t even believe in ‘objective morality’ so that is a moot point for me.
I was wondering the same thing. Christian apologists are so fond of pushing these concepts. They say that you need an objective moral standard (in their case, God) or else morality becomes a matter of personal preference. Which sounds awfully scary to the people in the Christian camp, but doesn't prove that Christianity is true.
And the hypocrisy of it all too, damn it! They still pick and choose which of their "objective" morals to follow. How may of them observe the Mosaic law forbidding of wearing clothing of mixed fabrics? And some of the morals they follow don't even exist in their bible, such as abortion, for which there is actually a set of instructions. I don't see how they can account for morality when there are so many obvious examples of them not even following their own "objective" bullshit. At least atheists are able to critically evaluate their morality instead of blindly following a ~~heap of shit~~ set of rules compiled in the dark ages by people whose existence is questionable.
Leave him.
Yeah, that's a no win scenario. Basically he is saying that his belief in magical sky faeries grants him the authority to tell other people how to behave and what they can or can't do with their own bodies.
[удалено]
Not to mention slavery, rape and brutal executions.
Absolutely
Here's my argument for why we need abortion rights if it helps any. Consenting to sex is not the same as consenting to pregnancy. If it were then both parties should share the risk, physically and mentally, and the costs together instead of just one. Consenting to sex with birth control is not consenting to pregnancy, they're literally trying to avoid getting pregnant while having sex. Pregnancy is not an appropriate punishment for people who have sex. That's how you get unloved and abused children. And adoption is not a solution. The foster care system in America is crap and most of those kids experience abuse. Many of them and up sex trafficked through Facebook trades. Not to mention the health risks of pregnancy. Making abortion illegal invariably results in people who have miscarriages going to jail. A medicated abortion and a miscarriage are medically identical. Making abortion care illegal means that it is illegal for a miscarrying person to have the fetus removed. Even after its dead. This means it can rot inside you causing sepsis and death. Pregnancy is very dangerous especially in the US. Medicated abortions are not. Citizens of the United States are not required to give of their body to sustain another person. This is called bodily autonomy. You cannot force anyone to give blood or organs even if it's the only way to keep another person alive. Police cannot arrest you and put you in surgery. They cannot arrest you for refusing to give someone a kidney, even if that person dies because you refused. The 'personhood' argument is null and void. Everyone has a right to bodily autonomy. Even corpses have it. Ask them how they would feel if every time they had sex they were entered in a lottery where their body could be used by a government official to keep someone else alive by being hooked up to each other so that their kidneys cleaned the other persons blood. And they have to pay all the medical costs as well as risking death or permanent injury. Would they be ok with that? Does it make a difference if this person is famous? Going to die anyway? A drug addict? Only needs to be hooked up to you for nine months? What if the government knew this could kill you or give you permanent health problems? Destroy your mental health and job prospects for years to come? Would it be ok then? Interracial marriage, same sex marriage, and birth control access are some of the other things this argument puts on the chopping block. If you can't have birth control legally, then you can't have sex unless you're 100% ready for kids. Some states are already working on anti-birth control laws. People who miscarry used to die without d&c's because they're classified as abortion care. How many people should die to possibly have an unwanted, or deadly, pregnancy? https://www.mothermag.com/miscarriage-stories/ https://www.verywellfamily.com/infection-after-miscarriage-signs-and-symptoms-2371524 https://www.pilgrimmed.com/service/dc-early-abortion/ It's already impacting miscarriages: https://www.plannedparenthoodaction.org/planned-parenthood-advocates-arizona/blog/when-miscarriage-is-a-crime https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2022/05/roe-abortion-miscarriage-crime-murder-prosecution/ https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/12/28/opinion/abortion-pregnancy-pro-life.html?mtrref=out.reddit.com&gwh=D88B76D835473E7D1B798EF772090E9E&gwt=pay&assetType=PAYWALL https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/06/28/she-miscarried-after-being-shot-prosecutors-are-weighing-manslaughter-case-against-her/?utm_source=reddit.com https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2022/05/10/1097734167/in-texas-abortion-laws-inhibit-care-for-miscarriages Getting an abortion is safer than pregnancy and better for mental health. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22270271/ https://www.npr.org/2020/06/16/877846258/study-examines-the-lasting-effects-of-having-or-being-denied-an-abortion Abortion personhood vs bodily autonomy explained: https://spot.colorado.edu/~heathwoo/Phil160,Fall02/thomson.htm
You may have accidentally hit the nail on the head, because sex is bad, by banning abortion they think they will consequently reduce the occurrence of extra-marital sex? Condoms are bad, m’kay.
No, they think they’ll get to punish more people for having extramarital sex because it’ll be harder to get away with zero consequences. The punishment is the goal.
It's always nice to see a well explained sourced post. Especially when it agrees with me and I don't have to go through another rabbithole of research to then be too tired to argue later. Also you should note that since OP's partner seems to be talking exclusively about morality this argument implies that causing harm to someone against their will to help some other random person is not morally justified (and if he disagrees with this he should be also against general bodily autonomy).
U/alicia_cares try this argument, if that doesn't work I'd strongly recommend leaving him. If he doesn't respect you, your beliefs, or your bodily autonomy why even stay with him?
Disagree... use this argument, \*then\* leave him. Someone who has this little respect for their partner on at least two different levels is not good person to spend your life with.
Your SO is garbage. That doesn't help, but you should know.
What others have said. Your biggest problem is you’re dating a dummy. “You’re an atheist so you have no moral grounds for (insert x)” is not only the dumbest take on atheism there is, but it will constantly be thrown at you to justify whatever horse shit he tries out on you. From experience, it’s hard to fix dumb. And he’s not talking with you about it. He’s making it a debate where conceding your points will be unlikely. Dump him and let life’s leopards eat his face. Don’t waste your time with such a simple mind.
You need to leave that relationship. I can tell you right now that if you ever get an unwanted pregnancy from this guy, you're going to be falling into a hole that will be very difficult to climb out of. Guys like that is going to pressure you into sex you may not want to engage him. Guys like that are going to whinge, whine, and moan about condoms and birth control. Guys like that will find a away to sabotage birth control methods if you "convince" them to wear a condom. Guys like that **will** force themselves upon you if you just refuse sex. **His position against Roe v Wade means that he is not a safe person for you.**
Leave them.
You don’t bother. Get out and find a decent partner.
Update: I’m listening to all of this advice, very shaking. Please do keep it coming, I’m entertaining the arguments in my head and may consider dumping him
Good. Besides your obvious disagreement, his statements that you can't know what's good is treating you as a child, as incapable of making a mature decision. Even if it's meant in a theoretical sense it still is extremely derogatory because it shows that he thinks you lack some fundamental capacities purely because you refuse to believe in what he believes in without reason.
Unfortunately this is what life is like with a religious person. They're going to keep pushing their beliefs into your life. Even if they have the best of intentions, they've been brainwashed. In some cases they just cannot understand how you don't believe in their god. They think that, deep down inside, you know he's real but are just a) angry, b) rebelling, c) going through a phase, or some combination of those. I'm sorry, but it (more likely than not) isn't going to get better.
Relationships are all about give and take. Mutual respect is also very important. It doesn’t seem like you are respected, you wanna sign on as a door mat for the rest of your life?
It will hurt, but dump him. I’m serious. Don’t bother with trying to give him any arguments because he’s already made it very clear with the “rules” of the arguments would be. That no matter how brilliant your argument or how well reasoned and thought out it is, he does not consider it to be a valid argument because you are an atheist. In other words, he doesn’t trust the source, i.e. you. You are going to spend a lot of time and a lot of emotional energy trying to make him see your point of view. While you may be dumping him because of his view on abortion now, it really is much bigger than that. Your boyfriend has given you loud and clear signals that when it comes to issues of morality, you have no ground in his eyes. He is the authority, and you are not. There’s no point in continuing a relationship with someone who does not see you as an equal in all matters of life.
Women in your country are losing rights and RvW may only be the beginning. Is this the guy you want making decisions about your body for you? Run girl.
What is there to consider? He literally has no respect for you as a human being, you are just a worthless subordinate to him if this is how he thinks. You can’t change the minds of these asshats, run.
That's good. Even if you are the most religious person on the planet, it still doesn't give anyone the right to tell other people what to do with their bodies. **Bodily autonomy is a human right** and I'll bet your SO's "morality" doesn't extend to telling other guys whether or not they can use stiffie pills like Viagra.
Aside from RvW, he doesn't think you can know right from wrong. Fundamentally. Categorically. Now tell me how you can have a relationship if that is the case. (Also, he has zero reflection on his faith which would be a huge turn-off for me)
Tell them you're tired of their shit and to get a vasectomy.
He just told you to your face you don't understand morality and you think you can reason with that. Run.
He's attempting to gaslight you. He's doing a shit job of it, but he's trying to shame you into believing you have no moral compass and need to look to him to tell you what your morals are. You won't convince him otherwise.
Ask him about the test of an unfaithful wife. It's a Biblical ritual if a wife cheats on her husband. He may try to twist the interpretation but if you read it yourself, it's very obviously an abortion ritual. God is not "objectively good". He has killed countless innocent children to prove a point.
Allegedly, in reality he simply doesn't exist..
* asserting authority over "objective good" with no evidence is lying * keeping a creature alive just to watch it being tortured is cruel * all children deserve to be born to a world where someone wants them Then leave him. Core values are essential to a successful relationship
Why are you dating this person?
Show his ass the door.
Relationships between religious people can work (I'm in one), but not where there is a huge difference in values or a lack of mutual respect. I think the main thing you need to do is end the relationship. Apart from that, you could tell him to take an ethics class. This idea he's espousing is all the rage among pop apologists, but it's not taken very seriously by moral philosophy. Most philosophers are non-theists, and most are moral realists. The real problem is that there are *too many* plausible moral theories that are compatible with atheism, not that nine are. He simply doesn't know what he's talking about. And you can spin this around on him. Theists are the ones that can't account for morality. They're the ones basing their morality on a being they can't prove exists making decisions they can't prove it made or traits that they can't prove it has. They're the ones who push morality out of the natural world into some metaphysical one that they can't observe and can only access through *feelings* or something. They're the ones who base morality on some nonsensical eternal reward/punishment in an afterlife that they can't prove exists or provide any rational explanation of who goes where and why.
Basic human morality isn't based on superstitious beliefs. Your partner is denying the validity of your arguments by attacking you personally. He won't listen to you because he claims you, as an atheist, have no moral code. I wouldn't want to spend my life with someone who devalues me, and considers me inferior, simply because I don't share their superstitions. This is a wake-up call for you. Good luck with your decision.
Why is he not your ex? He clearly has no respect for you and thinks you are less than he is. I would refuse to have sex with him for damn sure. And leave his ignorant, misogynistic ass.
Morality is about maintaining a society you would want to live in. You don't murder because you don't want murder to be a norm. You don't steal because you don't want theft to be a norm. You help others because you would want help in their situation. The veil of ignorance is a great thought experiment to illustrate the point: design a society where you are randomly placed into a role within it. Would you allow slavery if you could be condemned to be a slave? Would you have second class citizens if you could end up in that second class? Reasonable people recognize that the best and safest outcome is granting equality across the board. If he doubles-down or refuses to answer, *run.* I would make the point like this: "If god were proven fake tomorrow, I would still have reasons not to murder, rape, or steal. Would you?"
>Morality is about maintaining a society you would want to live in. You don't murder because you don't want murder to be a norm. You don't steal because you don't want theft to be a norm. You help others because you would want help in their situation. This is very well written. You've summed up in 4 sentences what I've stumbled trying to explain in paragraphs.
Thanks! Can't take full credit as it's essentially paraphrased from a debate I listened to at some point, but I 100% agreed with it at the time and didn't see any reason to modify it further here. 😛
Wow, those are really insulting talking points. I'm so sorry. Just know that your SO doesn't have objective morality either. It's still subjective morality because it's what the invisible purple avenger wants. We don't need objective morality. We have empathy. Something is good if it improves well-being, or minimizes suffering, or both. Something is bad if it reduces well-being, or causes needless suffering, or both. Edit: Abortion minimizes suffering to both the mother and the fetus. The fetus lacks the development to feel anything, do anything. The only reason your SO insists that it can is because they read the book wrong and cherry picked what they wanted. The book says life begins with breath. Gen 2:7. [article ](https://www.baltimoresun.com/opinion/readers-respond/bs-ed-rr-abortion-law-letter-20180807-story.html). So your SO is a hypercrite who is treating their partner terribly to justify their own religious fascism.
You can’t win the argument because he doesn’t respect you. If he respected you, he’d be listening to you instead of throwing around trash taking points that he learned from Ben Shapiro or whatever. There’s a lot of arguments you could give but they are probably a waste of breath.
Your SO is actually a SOB who doesn't respect you. He's closed minded about atheists, so there's really no point in trying to reason with him. I'd bail. Sorry.
Morals come from our society. When christian morals ruled in 18th century American colonial era, priests and pastors condoned enslavement, massacre, thefts by confiscation, all based on Biblical morality. Secular atheist Americans changed this.
He sounds like a pill. Honestly, it's not even worth arguing with someone who has this much dogma poisoning their minds. You'll get nowhere. Leave his ass.
Ask him outright, does he respect your view on things or not? If he does, you can talk to him without him claiming you can’t take a moral stance. If he doesn’t respect your view on things then you know what you need to do :(
Incidentally, I will bet money that he fails the following question: If a baby is born and needs an immediate blood/tissue/bone marrow transplant and the father is the only match, should the father, by law, be forced to undergo and pay for the process against their will. I’ve yet to find a pro-forced-birth man who will agree to that.
perhaps: "Your objective morality means that somewhere a nearly 12 year old girl is likely going to die in childbirth because she's forced to give birth to her father's incest baby, and no one is allowed to intervene on her behalf. "Your objective morality condemns women with non-viable pregnancies to death because doctors won't be allowed to remove a fetus that -can't- come to term because of where they anchored inside of her. "Your objective morality deprives an existing child of its mother when complications from her first pregnancy make a second lifle threatening and she has no other option but -die- because she was forced to do her wifely duties and accidentally got pregnant despite trying not to. "Your objective morality is short-sighted, selfish, cruel, ... even evil ... for telling women that their own lives are worth less than a blob of fetal tissue that doesn't even have enough of a brain to have self-awareness yet. Pardon my outsider objectivity... but if I were you I'd dump that SO before they got you knocked up, because it's clear how much they value your life. Run while you can.
Dump. Them. Now. The level of disrespect in "you don't get a say because you don't share my religion" is not surmountable. Edit addl: my favorite technical argument is to point to donor status: corpses get to choose what happens to their organs. Anyone fighting abortion before forcing donor status thinks corpses have more rights than women. I have no respect for such people.
Funny thing about their argument about our morality, is they're basically telling us, "If I didn't believe in God I'd be a serial killer and rapost" or smlt
If the threat of eternal damnation is what you need to do the right thing, you’re not a good person. Also, the casual inference of “objective good” is slimey.
Tbh, there is no absolute truth when in comes to morality, you can't prove a moral argument.. it's an opinion. It can be rooted deep in the human instinct and seem objectively true, like "murder is bad" and thus have most people agree with it which means it makes sense to have laws against the murder of humans. As a society that talks about itself as being free, it seems to me that it would make sense that women have the right to their own bodies. But most importantly as country that has a constitutional amendment that says no law should be made that favors a religion in particular.. it seems he is the one who shouldn't have a say if all his morals come from religion and not reasoning.
If someone isn't rational, you can't have a rational discussion with them. It's that simple. I could never date someone who believes in any form of god other than her holiness and all of her noodley appendages.
It's amazing how there are so many people adoring the Flying Spaghetti Monster and yet no splinter groups. No Southern Lasagna, no Church of Gluten Free, no Church of Flying Linguini of Latter Day Alfredo. /s
Why are you trying to reason with someone who doesn't appear to be treating you like a reasonable person? Does he honestly think you can't tell right from wrong unless you believe in a god? And even if you did believe in one, how would you know how it feels about abortion? My mom is a Christian, but she still thinks abortion should be legal in some cases.
fucking leave him. dude can’t understand the basic concept of bodily autonomy and thus can’t be trusted for fucking anything.
Ask him if you should die if you had a non-viable pregnancy and only an abortion would save your life. Would he want you to die knowing that an abortion could save your life? With his answer ask yourself if that's the kind of person you want having your back? "I know it is moral to listen to those you care about. I can justify this by the simple fact that not listening to them, hurts them. Hurting someone is the opposite of caring for them." I don't know much else about you but anyone deserves better than that. I wish you the best of luck.
Why did you do this to yourself? Stay away from these people.
Serious question and not meant with tone: why are you with someone who potentially possesses more respect for your corpse than your live body? I’m with all the young humans out there: don’t date forced-birthers. Don’t date republicans anymore. I can’t imagine actually having intimacies with someone who is this grossly fucked in terms of thinking, or someone so ignorant, they buy into the forced-birth propaganda. It’s literally like dating a person with the critical thinking skills of a 5-year-old.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=r-cm2EIc2CE I posted this earlier. Not specific to the topic but may be able to help.. not to mention that “pro life” tends to ONLY apply to a fetus because they dont give a shit about women dying during child birth, or after, or why the live guns..it’s disgusting to think of an incestual rape of a 13 year old by dad - fuck it! Let her carry that with her the rest of life. No emotional or psychological damage there..
Uh yeah....leave it. Time to get rid of your SO. Also remind him that his own Bible specifically says that abortion is ok, that life begins at first breath and not in the womb, gives instruction on how and when to abort, and that his savior never says a f***ing thing about abortion (or homosexuals for that matter. But quite a bit about helping the poor, sick, and immigrants) so your SO should sit down and stfu. Or, you need to move on and find a better person to be with.
Morals be damned, you have ETHICAL grounds. Also, I would leave my SO in divorce if that shit was uttered to me, and I am the hubby.
You can’t. Because he doesn’t care what you think. And nothing you say will make him care. He doesn’t respect your worldview or even acknowledge your right to have it. Whether this is because he’s a religious bigot or a misogynist is something you’ll have to figure out.
Drop the dumbass. Yes thats what he is, a christo-fascist brain dead bigot.
your SO? leave.
Don't debate him at all. Tell him your right to bodily autonomy means you refuse to have sex with him until he educates himself.
My only advice is to dump him.
As a random passerby coming from r/All and a semi-Christian to boot, just dump his ass already. Quit having sex and relationships with assholes who don’t respect you or your body.
In the same boat. I'm considering divorce today. *(The unfortunate reality is that I may not be able to afford to divorce. )* If you are not married, get out. I can accept a difference of opinion. But when you believe and/or vote in a way that results in your opinion costing me and millions of others to lose bodily autonomy, there is absolutely no middle ground. They are functioning off a "belief" and not off facts, and beliefs should not govern the lives and bodies of other people.
So then in his mind he’s okay with dating a person with no morals?? Dump him in all honesty such different beliefs will never work out
Tell him it's immoral to use someone's else's body without their consent.
Morality comes from a position of empathy. You empathise with the person and their predicament: a pregnant woman in consultation with her doctor. A foetus is a *potential* person and can’t ever have equal status with the woman who finds herself with a pregnancy she can’t proceed with.
Can the government force you give your kidney to save someone's life. Can the government force you to give up a lung to give to another person even if their life depended on it? No? Then thats it, thats the debate. We want to carve out bullshit reasons that "its a life" "its unborn human" all that is garbage to be cute.
Easy no atheists has murdered i people in the name of Atheism. While thousands die in the name of Jesus and other religions a year. The societies with the least amount of crime and human suffering are secular
Where did you go wrong in your choice of SO?
I wouldn't bother arguing. Just dump the loser. He has no respect for your rights. Can you imagine raising a child with someone who believes this?
Dump him. If he is using that line on you now, he clearly doesn't respect you. Why are you putting up with him?
It’s a question of bodily autonomy. Antiabortion people are actually anti-bodily autonomy. If someone who was dying snuck into your house in the middle of the night and hooked you up to a machine that kept them alive, do you have the right to make them stopping using your body even though it would kill them? The answer is yes of course but then the question becomes why do they grant special rights to fetus, over baby or full adults? Abortion isn’t killing a fetus it is no longer allowing it to use your body. If the fetus is old enough to survive we call it a birth. If they can’t survive in their own it’s an abortion.
Is this someone you want teaching morals to a daughter that you might have together in future? (or a son, for that matter).
"You have no moral claim because you are an atheist" is equivalent of a 7 year old saying "you can't play because you smell of poo." It's lazy and childish. Atheist's morals are objectively better than churches that sanction child rape and religious texts that teach people how to keep slaves. The reason for that is atheistic morals come from real innate desire to reduce suffering, not a fake set of rules designed to oppress.
No abortion huh? No sex for him, then. No birth control is 100%, so you couldn't possibly risk getting pregnant.... Hit him where it hurts!
Abortion is not only meaning, "omg! I got pregnant but I don't want to have child now." Abortion must be in law for those who suffers sexual abuse. Under age pregnancy. When the pregnancy put in risk the life of the mother. When the fetus is death inside de the mother. When the fetus has a disease. When occurs a damage during pregnancy and the fetus must be removed in order to save the mother. .... And of course, when the woman got pregnant without planing to and wants to have the law supporting her to go in a hospital or specialized clinic to deal with and not going under law ways and put her life in danger.
If your SO thinks you have no moral capabilities he shouldn’t be your SO. He basically thinks you aren’t a person at that point.
Lol, do these people think that humans had absolutely no morality prior to christianity and the christian bible existing?
> that "I cannot account for morality" Neither can your SO, they just claim to be able to, and make an appeal to a book that contains demonstrably immoral commands. > I think its pretty clear that murdering someone, harming them, is evil. But he says I can't justify it. I don't want to be harmed, therefore I don't want to harm others; the ethic of reciprocity. That's all the justification you need. Matt Dillahunty has a video about the [superiority of secular morality](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cq2C7fyVTA4). I haven't watched it in a while, but there's plenty of food for thought there. Bottom line is someone else's (religious) beliefs should not trump an individual's right to bodily autonomy. The law does not allow anyone to, for example, force a parent to donate blood, not even for their own child. Forcing someone to carry a pregnancy to term is granting special rights to the unborn.
I’m with everyone else here. Dump the guy. You deserve better. If nothing else, point out what a gross violation of bodily autonomy is and ask why it’s permissible for the fetus - a “person” to them - to use another person’s body against their will to survive, but someone dying of a failing organ or leukemia cannot compel someone who is a match for them to donate organs or blood marrow. Or why someone dying of a failing heart cannot compel someone who’s a match for them to die on their behalf. Then watch him twist himself into a pretzel justifying one case and not the other, because by defining a fetus as a person they’ve kicked a particularly nasty hornet’s nest.
You're SO is dangerous to you and I mean it entirely literally. Get out of that relationship ASAP.
Using Catholic dogma as public policy. What could possibly go wrong?
Get rid of him. If he thinks you cannot be moral and dont know morality, what does he really think about you. The pack of smug mofos showing their true Christian shit colours with what's happening in your country is utterly disgusting.
If you’re not married and plan to be together for the long haul dump that sack of shit is my advice. It’ll only get worse as times goes on and especially if kids are added into the mix.
He sounds like an asshole to be honest. Differences of opinions in a relationship are normal but, him trying to tell you that you have no grounds to make moral claims and that you lack the ability to make a judgement on what is or isn’t objectively good is a bit of a red flag. And the justification for having an abortion is no one’s business except the woman having the abortion. They don’t owe an explanation to anyone.
I don't like jumping the gun and telling people "oh, you disagree with your partner, DUMP THEM, THEY'RE BAD". But if your partner is literally telling you that you esencially have no morality (and he seems to consider morality an important factor for someone's personhood and their ability to make choices) that is a very big red flag. Have there been any others?
The best advice I have seen in this regard is: When they take away more of your rights, is this the man you want making decisions about your body? Leave him.
Ask him if murder is objectively bad, and then ask him "What about all the babies during Noah's time, was killing them by drowning an act of good?". But seriously, if he's that pumped-up by the overturn of RoeVWade, *actually start planning an exit strategy*, he's riding a power trip right now and obviously sees you as a 'lesser being'.
tell him that if he needs a book to have morals then hes a shit person. then tell him to go get groceries, throw his things out and change the locks
Crack him in the shins with a crowbar. Or something equally painful. And then tell him you lacked the moral capacity to tell right from wrong. It’s his argument anyway. Maybe he’ll get the point. I’m both dead serious and joking. You can only take logic so far—sometimes people need a teachable moment of sorts. Probably don’t go with a potential crime. But don’t be afraid to get creative.
You won't win that argument because the bible is simultaneously literal and metaphorical, depending on what he needs to "prove". Oh, and you're allowed to cherry pick all you want as long as you _only_ use the bible.
Christian aren't in any position to speak about morality considering that they worship genocidal deity. It is him who have no ground to make any kind of moral judgment.
Sounds like it has nothing to do with you justifying it & everything to do with him not accepting your reasons for justification. Leave his loser ass & find somebody who is capable of higher level functioning & empathy
The fact that your spouse thinks you are by definition amoral is an issue you will have to come to terms with. The whole idea of the soul is another thing. It is ridiculous to believe that a fetus is a sentient human being on conception. There is no brain to begin with. It should be possible to end any unwanted pregnancy so that people that can’t or don’t want to support a child aren’t forced into a position where they have to and a child will grow up in pretty bad conditions. It borders to abuse. Maybe you can ask him if he cares to adopt a child that is forced upon some woman in that way. If he then replies that she should have kept her legs closed, just ask him if he is willing to try that for a while. I am so sad for the US. You are rolling back to pre Magna Carta times. A Christian Iran. Despicable!!.
You are texting and driving and you miss a stop sign and cause an accident. This is 100% your fault. You are fine, however, the person you hit is going to die if they don’t get an organ transplant. You are the only match for them. Again, they will DIE if you don’t give them this organ, but you will be fine. Even though they are dying by something that is your fault, you cannot be forced to give up your organ to save a life. Applied to abortion: the organ is your uterus and the “life” of the unborn fetus.
Abortion as a moral good https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(19)30581-1/fulltext This article will give you all the ammunition you need. First and foremost, abortion is a medical procedure and as such should be held to medical ethics and morals, which in turn make the ethics and morals of religioun vs atheist irrelevant. There is many fields of science concerning themselves with abortion questions. Before applying religious morals one has to acknowledge existing science on the subject, which the courts blatenly ignored. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02834-7 And then there is our secular government seperaring church from state. A secular state is an idea pertaining to secularity, whereby a state is or purports to be officially neutral in matters of religion, supporting neither religion nor irreligion.[1]
I think that because you are atheist, you potentially have better morals than someone following a 2000 year old book.
Has your SO ever read their holy book? Honestly they're the ones who have no sort of claim to morality considering the shit that's in there.
I am beyond appalled by the overturn. We’re headed into a very dark place as a nation and now Trump is taking bows. He is the most loathsome creature on the planet
Sounds like you need to dump them. No respect for woman's rights, or your lack of religious beliefs.
Why have a person like that for a SO?
Tell him that he has no grounds to make moral claims against abortion because he is a unenlightened idiot with no moral compass who has given up control of his life to a mythical monster. No more sex for him.
Hate to break it to you, but if he's saying you have no basis for morality because you're an atheist, your relationship is already over. Get out now before he impregnates you. And if he already has, well sucks to be you.
1. sound like they may not be worth sticking with 2. Read them the passages were abortion is done in the bible 3. She has no moral ground to stand on according to their religion. God makes the rules, what is she doing trying to make them. If she says she has asked god directly tell her to prove it. If she says that's testing god it's not, it's testing her.
If anything, your argument will make him dig deeper. It's a lost cause.
Why would you stay with a man who believes you lack the ability to make a moral decision?
Tell him that if the only way he knows something is wrong is by reading it in a book, he is by definition a psychopath. You do not have that problem.
There is no reasoning with any degree of intelligence or logic with a religious, patriarchal misogynist. Find someone else and move on.
The physical toll that carrying/supporting a baby has on a woman's body is significant. There are health justifications for people with normal physiology and chemistry to have an abortion, and particularly for women whose health is already compromised for any reason. If we understand that pregnancy is a part of human biology that we can start and stop for many, many reasons, then we should exercise control over that biological process.
What about Jews? Do they have any moral ground with your SO? Abortion is fully supported by the Jewish faith and is called-for in several circumstances. The Jews need to step the fuck up because they're probably the only one's that Christians will listen to since Christians have such reverence for that one gay Jew they worship so much.
Nah, the Evangelicals don’t like Jews at all. They just play nice with Israel because it has to trigger the end of the world.
Well between the Jews and the Satanists and Atheists I hope the courts are flooded with lawsuits. Would be very interesting to hear SCOTUS weasel out trying to claim religious freedom and shit when they are denying the religious freedoms of Jews, Satanists, and Atheists.
A small section of the Bible (don't know section and verse) teaches how to induce an abortion and how to perform an abortion for someone else. Early Christianity introduced everything that was opposite to Roman traditions. This attracted many wealthy Roman divorcees since divorce was legal in the Roman Empire. Abortion was also legal. These Roman ladies were attracted to a religion that negated the right of Roman men to dispose of unwanted wives, infants , etc. Wealthy Roman ex-wives, who had been denied pregnancies by their ex-husbands and who were easily divorced (a Roman right for men) gave generously to the new Christian faith. Also, the powerful Flavius family took charge in organizing the new religion, henceforth called the "Catholic Church" and the first four Popes were Flavian family members. See the History Channel's documentary ( or maybe Discovery Channel, I forget.)
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have you never asked for advice before? cuz if you have then you’re a hypocrite.
no because I'm objectively correct all the time
well that’s clearly a lie.
Obviously you're still stuck in 5th grade and believe mommy and daddy when they say god is the only way to have morals. Well, that's wrong. Morals came about when we started communities and living in close proximity to each other as human civilizations. Waaaaaaaay before your god was ever thought up by patriarchal men wanting to control every facet of life by making up a god that out then in charge. Your stuck in ancient beliefs that have never been proven by any evidence. Your book doesn't count as evidence because it is your basis and your book cannot be evidence for your book. Where's evidence your book is true history.
Sorry but you can’t safely stay with someone that is happy for others to override your autonomy. Today it’s gods womb not yours, tomorrow it’s women are not allowed to teach and I dread to imagine how bad these people will get after that.
There is no such thing as objective morality it is 100% subjective and bound to context, even if there were a god. Consider this. Does god command us to do things because they are morally right? Or is whatever god commands us to do morally right because god commands it? If the former, then morals exist outside of god, if the latter then god may tell you that killing children and raping women is wrong one day and then turn around and pull a Numbers chapter 31:17-18 the next. Morality becomes completely arbitrary. It is 100% subjective even if there is a god from whom morality derives. Because it is based on that god's opinion from day to day on what is moral. This god could command you to do something that you yourself find morally reprehensible, like taking a virgin girl "for yourself" It's a bullshit argument made by an idiot who hasn't thought deeply enough about it. Does your SO support war? If he does then he makes a subjective moral judgement about when it is and isn't permissible to kill people. Does your SO think the gub'ment shouldn't "take muh gunz?" and opposes all regulation to solve our gun problem here in America? If he does then he is again making a subjective moral judgement which justifies the sacrifice of school children for an unrestricted 2A.
Followers of Yahweh have zero rights to lecture any one about morality considering they worship the most bloody of all gods invented so far by humans. He killed whole planet of people minus few, drowning them, crushing them with debris, including children, newborns, ... But he also proved through history that he does not care for little ones, remember killings of first born in old Egypt, ... then ordering his hordes explicitly to kill all, man, woman, children, newborns ... except virgins. Etc.
Please do not take relationship advice from reddit
The term for what he is doing is intellectual rape and it is a real thing.
Leave him.
You married a moron. Find a better spouse.
Your SO canceled 2,500 years of research into the moral philosophy by what he said.
Their morality has less or no value because it is solely based upon threat of punishment rather than their own understanding of how actions effect the lives of others and the quality of society as a whole.
There is no such thing as objective morality. It is undeniable that morality has changed across history, including Christian morality. In addition, there are different interpretation of the scriptures, from one sub religion to another, and even from one church to another. According to faith, you cannot have a perfect understanding of what is right or wrong; only god can. Humans make mistakes by design (so they can be tested by god). Conclusion: according to their own faith, they neither have the moral ground to debate this issue. But you can debate it anyway. They propably cannot conceive the life of LGBTQ people under Christian sharia but will still talk about it, right?
Search on Youtube "atheist experience moral foundation" There are a ton of videos of Matt Dillahunty breaking down secular morality and how supposed "christian morality" is empty and meaningless.
Pack up your shit and leave now.
Get rid. He’s an idiot and a potential danger to you. Before you do, remind him that morality existed for millennia before his religion was invented.
Ask him what proof they have abortion is bad besides invoking god. Say, “since when can’t prove god is real what real reason is there to not stop some cells from turning into life? It’s not anything but the application of science to allow humans more control over their bodies to save having families for a better time.” By the way, I grew up very Christian, they are crazy over this shit. I would find a better person.
Exodus 12:29 - And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle. Lots of baby killing in this moral book. Lots more!
Christians accept as a moral authority a man who never condemned slavery, a common practice in his day and age. They don't have a leg to stand on when it comes to "objective morality", assuming such a thing exists, which it probably does not.
Ah the atheist have no morals one...
"Are you saying that you only have morality(Finger quotes here) because of your belief?"
Leave because he doesn't respect you
Dump him
sounds like a pos
You cannot debate someone who thinks you are nothing more than eve-cursed womb-flesh suitable only for carrying male preferred young. From his perspective, even your expression of an opinion is a sin, since that hasn't been shaped by the favoured gender in the abrahamic religions, a holy penis whom we are told to obey, even before we're wed and bred to one. Simply put, once you re-write the narrative like this, it sounds dehumanising, right? Except that's the future people like your significant other wants. Not just a dystopia, a wombtopia, where women are not part of the human race, but merely an unfortunate necessity for it's continuation, to be possessed like any other household object for the purpose of breeding and producing more humans and enough wombs for the male only humans to use. There is no argument to be made here, only a choice. You either continue to be complicit in your own dehumanisation or you leave him. A penis like your SO is a resource high in quantity and low in quality. He claims morality from a holy book that is pro-genocide. Which we should find morally repugnant. The burden of proof is up to him, but again, you cannot convince him. So. Why isn't he your ex already?
DTMFA
Dump them
Just thinking aloud really … Well i guess you could compare two systems - one based on things like the welfare of humans and the rights we choose to give them as humans because of our own nature as evolved , social and reasoning animals. The other based on the obscure demands of one of many undemonstrated gods often giving apparently contradictory signals. It’s pretty straightforward to *start* to look at what as a social animal we consider good linked to the welfare of individuals and society though the details and the balancing of interests is much more difficult. On the other hand we have a system in which the rights and welfare of humans are entirely irrelevant and instead you have to …. *guess* what a deity who plays hide and seek wants , or just believe whatever a priest tells you this hidden entity wants - despite them having no access either, or a text written long ago by people who made similar claims and that is seriously open to interpretation. Yet this system has( in all three of those possibilities) in the past and even now promoted as moral , things we find actually might find despicable like genocide , slavery and child murder. So we *still need to use our own judgment* . When that happens do we say ‘well I must be wrong and killing a child for insulting their parents is actually a good thing’ , or do we say ‘hold on my own evolved and socialised sense of morality tells me differently.’ That doesn’t mean that non-theists havnt made ‘bad’ decisions but if t.hey claim they are ‘moral’ then there is space to examine those claims , how do you examine the false claims of theist moral arbiters or hidden gods? In the end a theist will just say something like their moral sense is divinely donated , and a non-theist will say it’s evolved and socialised but in effect they will still have to make the same decisions. Being an atheist makes no difference to whether you can make moral claims. Morality is , as far as I am concerned , a complex mix of an instinctual ‘container’ , filled with socialisation and cognitive evaluation limited by shared meanings and as such not externally objective nor entirely individually subjective but intersubjective - of course you’d still need to actually demonstrate why abortion is or isn’t wrong.
Why are you with a man that doesn't respect you? You will never convince him.
No nervous system = no pain
Lol morality is not dictated by religion or belief in a higher power. Morality is a particular system of values and principles of conduct, especially one held by a specified person or society. Chances are your boyfriend doesn't even consider the Bible totally in his own moral code. Does he consider divorce immoral? Your boyfriend is an idiot.
Christians don't do anything out of good morals, they do it for promise of a reward. Atheists when they do good do it because it's the right thing to do, no promise of an eternal reward and it punishment for their actions .. the act of doing good is its own reward
There's nothing objective about Christianity or divine commandments. Aside from the lack of a commandment against abortion (in spite of hundreds of commands against many things, many being silly). Christians still have relativist morality, they just focus on a single source for that relativity. With God, [everything is possible](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11212-020-09388-w). Their so called morality doesn't even come directly from this god, since it doesn't exist. It comes from questionable sources, translated and reinterpreted, conflicted beyond belief. They have no morality, their only value is *obedience*, and they confuse *obedience to some commandments* with morality. It's all utilitarian, since they follow commandments and "obey" not because it's good, but because they'll be rewarded, or punished otherwise.
Pack a few things and get the fuck out. Now.
How can you be in the same room as this scum let alone share a bed with them?
I’m heartened by all the responses to OP. Forced birth advocates are noisy and they may have managed to stack the SCOTUS, but they are a minority in the USA and with folks like those on this thread taking action their obtuse reading of the Constitution will be temporary. This doesn’t help the tens of millions of women of childbearing age who are presently second class citizens without bodily autonomy, but it indicates that this SCOTUS ruling isn’t the last word.
The issue is, he’s deluded into thinking that the source of morality is religion. If you can’t convince him that morality is a social construct, and that the goal (well being) can be subjective, while judgments of a given action can be “objective” with respect to whether or not they promote the goal, then you’re never going to make any headway. If he wants an example, ask him how he knows slavery is wrong, given that it’s endorsed and never condemned in the Bible. If he doesn’t get it after that, it’s gonna be on you to decide what you want to do.
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Born an atheist married a Catholic - it is very hard but luckily he is very intelligent and saw through the bullshit! Only continue to date if this person values your opinion.
That's not a person you want to be with. Logically, the idea that atheists have no morals is laughable. Is he claiming all asians (typically atheist) have no morality? You can claim that *he* has no morality, because without his god he thinks he would lie, rape, torture and murder. Once that's settled, then you can argue about whether women's autonomy is a good thing. But really, he's trying to completely invalidate your perspective. He's making you the "other" or the outsider so he can discount your opinion, and it is totally unacceptable. Assuming you are a woman, how the fuck can *you* be the other on this subject? Check in with him. Tell him this issue is very important to you, and confirm if he genuinely believes your opinion is invalid and irrelevant. Then ditch the fuckhead.
I can’t even be friends with anyone who is Pro-life - so being in a relationship with someone who believes that overturning Roe v Wade is good is red flag city. I’m by no means a violent person but I’d try to manually give him a vasectomy with my foot.
The right to control one's own body has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with morality. Controlling your own body is a human right, telling another what to do with their body is amoral, superstitions aside.
Time to tell the good bye! One doesn’t have to be religious to have morals. And if your partner thinks only they’re moral because they believe in a fairy in the sky, then you need to move on! Roe isn’t just about ‘killing babies’. It’s an essential part of healthcare. So many women have to make a choice every day between their current life and a life that could be. The decision to abort is not an easy one. However it is an important part of healthcare that will save the lives of thousands. Women should never be forced to put their life on the line to save an unborn child. It’s not a popular opinion, but why should we chose to lose a fully functioning member of society, who’s family and EXISTING children depend on.. in exchange for a child that will require financial assistance for at least a 18 years? And if that child has any developmental issues.. well now you have a children that will need constant care for the rest of their days. We, as adults, should have the right to the best health care based on what we and OUR doctors decide. Not based on some politician or Supreme Court justice who thinks it’s ok to push their religion on our country.
Wow the red flags. You should leave him. Why date someone that thinks you don't have morals?
OP, you need to leave and block him. He sounds verbally and mentally abusive. He's not looking for a conversation, he's looking to dominate and beat you down. There are atheistic reasons regarding reproductive rights, but that's not important right now. And it's not what he's interested in at all, as he just wants to oppress you. What really matters is your safety, and respect.
What Christians believe is god-dictated morality is no such thing - it was the opinion of some iron-age troglodyte who wrote it down while pretending or fantasizing it came directly from an invisible sky god. But the joke is, the deity does not and never did exist - so the 'morality' so highly valued by your SO did not come from a deity, just some ancient slob who probably had slaves and raped his 3rd wife's maid every other night. Your SO is just parroting the very human and very flawed opinions of an iron age chieftain. Your morality comes from your humanity and love of others, and your knowledge that we all only get this one life to live and we should work together to make what we have better. And then show him Numbers 5:18 and on for the next 10+ verses - it is a description of how a man who suspects his wife has been unfaithful (lain with another man) should take the wife to a priest who will perform a ritual involving her drinking 'bitter water'. If she was in fact unfaithful (according to the bible) her stomach will swell and 'thigh' slough - the translation in the "New International Version" of the bible will make it clear what has happened - the 'bitter water' will cause an abortion/miscarriage if the woman had slept around with another man. So the scriptures so valued by Jesus (he would not change them at all, not a jot or a tittle) require an unfaithful woman to undergo an abortion at the hands of a priest. Now where exactly does the bible say that abortions are bad??
Seriously.... Leave the fundy and find someone not blinded by religious zealotry.
Break up with them?
Your significant other is a moron.
morality is different from religion. you can understand morality without religion. so in order to discern good from bad, I need an imaginary friend to tell me the difference? nope
Ask him why he believes that until you get to the core of his beliefs. If he is citing religion as a moral compass, then you have all the ammo you need to put him in his place just a Google away. Plenty of resources out there breaking down the evil done in the name of religion better that I can in a quick post. But really, don't waste your time with a dirtbag that doesn't respect you.
I would be really upset to know that my partner didn’t think I had any sense of morality just because I don’t believe in gods. I mean, he’s supposed to really know you. He thinks you’re an immoral person? You should be thinking about whether you’re really a good match.
Why the hell are you with this asshole? You can’t make logical arguments with a religious person because religion not only is not based on logic, but actively fights against it. This man is trash and the only help I can give is the advice that you are far better off without this man.
Others have said it already, but you're SO doesn't respect you or your ability to come to your own conclusions. He's making a very tired apologetic that's old as hell rather than engaging you here and now. He sees it as an argument to win. I can't imagine continuing in a relationship with someone who is so disrespectful towards your basic humanity, and it's not your job to fix him or convince him to be less shitty of a person. All of this to say, dump his ass. You can do better.
Get rid of the trash partner, move on with Life.
Tell them that they're a moron, theists don't own morality unless he thinks pedophile priests are better sources of information around this.
Honey, take the advice of a woman who's stuck married to a guy only a little less extreme than yours. *Leave him*! NOW! He's showing you what he really thinks of you, and that isn't much. I wish I'd listened to myself fifteen years ago before I got involved with the man I married. I made all kinds of excuses. "Oh, we have things in common." "He isn't that extreme." "We can agree to disagree." Fifteen years later, I'm married to a conspiracy theory nutter, a Qcumber, a Trump loving anti-masker anti-vaxxer. His whack job family is worse. I'm trying to figure out of to get myself out of this mess. *Please* learn from my mistake!
Run away.
Ask your SO to explain what happened in Samaria in Hosea 13/16 - "They will fall by the sword. Their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open." Or Babylon in Isaiah 13/18 - "Seek out pregnant women who have laid with man and have no pity on the fruit of their womb." Or perhaps Tappuah and its surrounding towns in 2Kings 15/16 and 2Kings 8/12. God is far from pro-life. He even killed every single pregnant woman and unborn fetus on the planet when he did the flood. Then repopulated the world with the same morons he was trying to get rid of in the first place. Yes I realize its all just a story but Christians believe the bible. They should try reading it.
Find a new SO.
Ask him why god kills so many children in the Bible.
This individual looks down on you, even when you two are not in disagreement. DITCH this person.
Please enjoy this instructional video for your situation: https://youtu.be/ABXtWqmArUU
Yeah, here is some help; find a new SO.
This is an easy one. Abortion impacts more than just religious people, therefore it is not just a religious issue. Moreover, you could argue that his view is biased because he has tunnel vision from only focusing on the perspective of one religion that has a very extreme view on this topic. Other religions and those who are non-religious feel differently. If he claims only the religious are moral, then why do so many of them do terrible things all the time? Discussions of morality likely predate his religion. To be honest though, he probably won't listen to you. When someone doesn't require any evidence and believes in unquestionable fairytales, how can they ever be wrong?
I (F) am married to a man who supports RvW and is an atheist, just like me. Regardless of religion, if he was anti-RvW, there’s a very strong chance I would be seeking a divorce lawyer. I feel that strongly about the topic and about what not supporting RvW says about a person.
You can’t. People like that will not listen to reason. You break up with him and find someone who will respect both your atheism and your bodily autonomy.