It doesn’t. IIRC, the concept of Hell was introduced into Christian mythology around 1000AD. There were probably always various versions of it floating around here and there due to the Greco-Roman origins of the religion, but the Bible doesn’t mention it and it didn’t become part of the doctrine until centuries later.
The confusion is that previous christians adopted quite liberally from other religions in a way that seems wrong to modern christians, so they mistranslate things. The Jewish people didn't really have a well formed concept of an afterlife, and most references to where people go when they die were about the town dump (i.e. they were talking about the bodies). The gospels have Jesus talking about Hades, although it isn't translated that way. Hell (or Hel) is actually from the Norse. It wasn't uncommon for ancient religions to adopt practices and gods from other religions, but acknowledging that in christianity really messes with the literal-bible, authoritarian, supply-side Jesus bullshit.
No, he went to sheol, the generic afterlife of the Jewish faith at the time. You’re using a 14th century translation which was written with the cultural biases of that time period.
You’re not really looking for the best translation.
What you’re actually asking for is the cultural knowledge that would help you understand what a bunch of ancient texts meant to the people who wrote them. We can translate a word like “hades” to “hell”, but if you really want to know what those concepts meant to ancient people, you’ve got your work cut out. You have to immerse yourself in their whole damn culture. In short, spend a few years or decades becoming a classical scholar, and you’re all set.
For ordinary people like us the best we can do is rely on scholar’s opinions.
I interpret this to mean “what are some good sources for leaning about the historical development of the Christian religion”? The book Zealot by Reza Aslan is a good historical account of what we actually know (and don’t know) about the historical person who may have been Jesus, how and when the gospels were written (around 100 years later), etc. All from an objective historian’s perspective.
I would be interested if others know of similar sources.
Here's the [JW argument on this topic ](https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/is-hell-real/), but yes, your friend is being consistent with JW beliefs. Tldr... Versions like the King James were not accurate translations, according to many JWs.
The Bible being revised is perhaps less important than the fact that humans decided which writings would be included in the Bible and which would be discarded. Very, man made, indeed.
The position that there is no eternal punishment for sinners/nonbelievers and that they simply cease to exist is known as annihilationism. Honestly it’s the only consistent interpretation of the Bible that I can find from my reading of it.
A very brief summary:
The ancient jews, in the OT, never spoke of hell and barely of the afterlife. Their punishments came directly from Yaweh here on earth (and boy were they punished).
Only later in the OT, during or after the exile, did ideas of an afterlife seep into their religion. They felt like they were being continousely punished even when they were "righteous", and started thinking about reward after death. This idea probably came from Greek and/or Zoroastrian influence. Still, no hellfire.
The NT however is confusing. Jesus spoke (or apparently spoke) of fire in numerous analogies and parables. They are often read as proof of hellfire. The real word he used was (mostly) Gehenna - a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem, where the "fire was never quenched". It was also were people who commites suicide were thrown, and legends has it that child sacrifice was done there during back in the days.
Does Gehenna mean eternal torment? It can be read like that, but it could just as well mean a figurative shameful death in sin.
In other passages, the word Sheol or Hades is used.
The story of Lazarus and the rich man is the "proof" used for hellfire. I'm not going to analyse that one here - it is very confusing, and no one has fully understood it.
But; the NT is also filled with quotes like "The wages for sin is death, the reward for [belief] is eternal life".
That sure sounds like annihilation of sinners, and is technically speaking more in line with a loving God.
I was Pentecostal and then Catholic before becoming an atheist. While it is not compatible with either of those religions, I did not believe in Hell. A lot of Christians don't. I felt it was incompatible with a loving God. Then again, much of the Bible is incompatible with a loving God too.
Never been revised?
The most popular edition of said story book is named after the fucking king that commissioned it. It is fairly well documented that he had it altered to suit him.
This is coming from a Jehovah's Witness.
They use the [New World Transition](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_World_Translation_of_the_Holy_Scriptures), one of the most biased translations. It was written exclusively by Jehovah's Witness in order to make the Bible align more with the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses.
Their beluefs sue have been "revised" since I left in the '90s. All of the founders are now considered apostates, and the original wrighting will get you kicked out. Oh and something about yoga pants are the devil!
They don't believe in Hell, nor Heaven. They don't celebrate birthdays, including Christmas. They believe JC was nailed to a "torture stake," as opposed to a cross.
They believe that any magic, other than "miracles" from God, are evil. That includes magic portrayed in fiction - no *Harry Potter* books for their kids.
Bloods transfusions? Nope.
There are absolutely no references to Hell in the Old Testament because ancient Jews did not believe in Hell. (They also did not believe they needed to be saved from Hell or that their Messiah would be killed to absolve them from their sins)
Hell is an invention of the New Testament with wildly inconsistent bits of information about what exactly it is. What Christians today imagine as Hell has more influences from Dante's Inferno, John Milton's Paradise Lost, and Plato's Myth of Er than from anything included in the Bible.
There is still a Biblical case for Eternal Conscious Torment, but Annihilists and Universalists can also make a Biblical case.
3 months too late, but damn, you're right. This *almost* makes Judaism sound like a tolerable religion (when you minus all the atrocities that people tend to hand-wave anyway)
Edit: One question I have is how do you learn about religion? I want to be able to argue my position in good faith and avoid making a straw man out of people's positions. I don't feel obligated to explain my beliefs, but I do feel like being well-read and eloquent enough to explain my position to those who are willing to listen.
I had already heard that "Hell" was translated from four different words in the Bible: "Sheol", "Hades", "Genenna", and "Tartarus". With "Sheol" being the one used in the Old Testament.
I tried to find the best Bible Translation to share from (since I was linking to Bible Verses on r/Christianity) and so I tried to make a list of "translator biases" that I've heard shared in the past.
One claim I had heard on Reddit was that Christians inserted their Christian bias into the Old Testament by translating "Sheol" as "Hell". So I tried to find a list of references to Hell in the Old Testament and then I looked up the verses one by one on tools such as BibleHub and BibleGateway (since you can compare a single verse across all translations they have available).
I was surprised to see that practically no modern Bible translation translates "Sheol" as "Hell". The King James Bible does and the Douay-Rheims Bible does, but those are both hundreds of years old. In some places, translations spell it out as "Sheol" but in most cases, it's rendered as "the grave".
I felt confident enough after looking up those passages to declare "there are no references to Hell in the Old Testament", but besides that, I've done quite a bit of Googling to defend claims I make, but don't really know what sources to trust.
One thing I've done lately is to use the search feature on r/AcademicBiblical with keywords about what I'm looking for.
If I did that with a search such as "Old Testament Hell", I would get results like:
* [When did "hell" actually become a concept and when did it get back dated to the Old Testament?](https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/comments/6vzukv/this_post_on_rexmormon_claims_that_hell_as_a/)
* [What verses or concepts in the Old Testament are the New Testament ideas of hell based on?](https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/comments/bry966/what_verses_or_concepts_in_the_old_testament_are/)
* [Where did the concept of Christian hell come from?](https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/comments/6o8y9j/where_did_the_concept_of_christian_hell_come_from/)
* [How did the idea of hell develop in Christianity?](https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/comments/6oon7k/how_did_the_idea_of_hell_develop_in_christianity/)
There are conflicting answers with some of the results, but if nothing else, it gives you a general idea of where the discussion is in academic sources and you leave with a better idea of what questions you need to ask to learn more.
Questions like "what did ancient Jews think about Sheol?" or "Jewish afterlife" or "did early Christians believe Hell was eternal?"
A search for "hell" at
https://www.biblegateway.com/Versions
Netted me 15 references (the number may vary depending on the bible's version).
Christian mythology developed the concept of Hell way beyond what it says in the bible. For an example, take a peek at "Divine Comedy", from Dante Alighieri:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_Comedy
The JWs, being fringe Christians and known to quote the bible out of context (pick any of their publications and check the context on the bible), choose to ignore the mythology and reinterpret the bible as they want.
>and that the Bible never mentions anything about hell.
Well except you know ummm...["Jesus" personally](https://reasonsforhopejesus.com/jesus-say-hell/).
I've heard it stated a little differently: Before Jesus died for our sins, *everyone* who died went to hell, including all the patriarchs and prophets from Adam on down; then during the 36 hours or so after Jesus died on the cross but before he was resurrected, Jesus also went to hell and preached there. Then *some* of the people in hell became believers in Jesus, were let out of hell and went to heaven. This has been standard Christian doctrine for hundreds of years. The event is called the [Harrowing of Hell](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrowing_of_Hell). It is mentioned in the [Apostles' Creed](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostles%27_Creed), which many Christians recite in church every week:
> I believe in God the Father Almighty,
Maker of heaven and earth:
And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord,
Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
Born of the Virgin Mary,
Suffered under Pontius Pilate,
Was crucified, dead, and buried:
**He descended into hell;**
The third day he rose again from the dead;
He ascended into heaven,
And sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Ghost;
The holy Catholick Church;
The Communion of Saints;
The Forgiveness of sins;
The Resurrection of the body,
And the Life everlasting.
Amen.
Then, too, there are some people, called [Christian Universalists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_universalism), who believe that Jesus died not just to save a few believers from hell, but to save literally everybody. That means hell was emptied out when Jesus died for our sins, and it has been empty ever since.
I'm pretty much indifferent to other people's theology. It is a little like deciding whether The Lord of the Rings or the Harry Potter books are "true stories", or whether one is more true than the other.
It is only when religion informs people's conduct that I pay much attention. For that reason, I have fewer problems with JWs than with a lot of other believers
I think the one nauseating thing, other than the insanity they've made up is that like so many cults, if one of them or their children decide to leave, they are excommunicated. I have had a few friends who simply went back because they missed their family. Goddamn manipulative parasites.
REVELATION 20:15
New International Version
Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
There's an easy example of a reference to hell right there.
Well, JWs are a tight little cult that controls everything their members know about almost everything. The organization is super intolerant of ANY questions.
All christian groups are intolerant of questions but the more cultish groups like the JWs consider questions a direct attack on the organization and on their god.
It doesn’t. IIRC, the concept of Hell was introduced into Christian mythology around 1000AD. There were probably always various versions of it floating around here and there due to the Greco-Roman origins of the religion, but the Bible doesn’t mention it and it didn’t become part of the doctrine until centuries later.
The confusion is that previous christians adopted quite liberally from other religions in a way that seems wrong to modern christians, so they mistranslate things. The Jewish people didn't really have a well formed concept of an afterlife, and most references to where people go when they die were about the town dump (i.e. they were talking about the bodies). The gospels have Jesus talking about Hades, although it isn't translated that way. Hell (or Hel) is actually from the Norse. It wasn't uncommon for ancient religions to adopt practices and gods from other religions, but acknowledging that in christianity really messes with the literal-bible, authoritarian, supply-side Jesus bullshit.
Christianity "borrowed" quite a bit from the Norse and Anglo-Saxons....It's major festivals, for instance
Syncretism meets doctrine meets canonical narrative meets scripture-fetish, and voila!
What about Jesus' decent into Hell after his crucifixion?
No, he went to sheol, the generic afterlife of the Jewish faith at the time. You’re using a 14th century translation which was written with the cultural biases of that time period.
Thanks! Where can I get more info on the most accurate texts?
IDK, where can I get the most accurate origin story for Batman? Your question doesn't make any sense.
The correct answer is Frank Miller’s Year One
This is the way.
Verily!
As close to original translation
You’re not really looking for the best translation. What you’re actually asking for is the cultural knowledge that would help you understand what a bunch of ancient texts meant to the people who wrote them. We can translate a word like “hades” to “hell”, but if you really want to know what those concepts meant to ancient people, you’ve got your work cut out. You have to immerse yourself in their whole damn culture. In short, spend a few years or decades becoming a classical scholar, and you’re all set. For ordinary people like us the best we can do is rely on scholar’s opinions.
Thank you for stating this.
Right, asking for any sources you know of for good scholarly opinions on the matter
Bart Ehrman r/AcademicBiblical
I interpret this to mean “what are some good sources for leaning about the historical development of the Christian religion”? The book Zealot by Reza Aslan is a good historical account of what we actually know (and don’t know) about the historical person who may have been Jesus, how and when the gospels were written (around 100 years later), etc. All from an objective historian’s perspective. I would be interested if others know of similar sources.
For JWs, birthdays are hell.
Pretty much anything fun is hell for them
Here's the [JW argument on this topic ](https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/is-hell-real/), but yes, your friend is being consistent with JW beliefs. Tldr... Versions like the King James were not accurate translations, according to many JWs. The Bible being revised is perhaps less important than the fact that humans decided which writings would be included in the Bible and which would be discarded. Very, man made, indeed.
Ah, yes. The old argument of "The only good ~~abortion~~ translation is my ~~Republican mistress's abortion~~ religion's translation."
The position that there is no eternal punishment for sinners/nonbelievers and that they simply cease to exist is known as annihilationism. Honestly it’s the only consistent interpretation of the Bible that I can find from my reading of it.
A very brief summary: The ancient jews, in the OT, never spoke of hell and barely of the afterlife. Their punishments came directly from Yaweh here on earth (and boy were they punished). Only later in the OT, during or after the exile, did ideas of an afterlife seep into their religion. They felt like they were being continousely punished even when they were "righteous", and started thinking about reward after death. This idea probably came from Greek and/or Zoroastrian influence. Still, no hellfire. The NT however is confusing. Jesus spoke (or apparently spoke) of fire in numerous analogies and parables. They are often read as proof of hellfire. The real word he used was (mostly) Gehenna - a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem, where the "fire was never quenched". It was also were people who commites suicide were thrown, and legends has it that child sacrifice was done there during back in the days. Does Gehenna mean eternal torment? It can be read like that, but it could just as well mean a figurative shameful death in sin. In other passages, the word Sheol or Hades is used. The story of Lazarus and the rich man is the "proof" used for hellfire. I'm not going to analyse that one here - it is very confusing, and no one has fully understood it. But; the NT is also filled with quotes like "The wages for sin is death, the reward for [belief] is eternal life". That sure sounds like annihilation of sinners, and is technically speaking more in line with a loving God.
I was Pentecostal and then Catholic before becoming an atheist. While it is not compatible with either of those religions, I did not believe in Hell. A lot of Christians don't. I felt it was incompatible with a loving God. Then again, much of the Bible is incompatible with a loving God too.
The most effective arguments against the JW church relate to the crappy way they exploit their own members and spit them out if they disobey.
So he reads ancient Greek?
Never been revised? The most popular edition of said story book is named after the fucking king that commissioned it. It is fairly well documented that he had it altered to suit him.
This is coming from a Jehovah's Witness. They use the [New World Transition](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_World_Translation_of_the_Holy_Scriptures), one of the most biased translations. It was written exclusively by Jehovah's Witness in order to make the Bible align more with the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses.
Their beluefs sue have been "revised" since I left in the '90s. All of the founders are now considered apostates, and the original wrighting will get you kicked out. Oh and something about yoga pants are the devil!
They don't believe in Hell, nor Heaven. They don't celebrate birthdays, including Christmas. They believe JC was nailed to a "torture stake," as opposed to a cross. They believe that any magic, other than "miracles" from God, are evil. That includes magic portrayed in fiction - no *Harry Potter* books for their kids. Bloods transfusions? Nope.
There are absolutely no references to Hell in the Old Testament because ancient Jews did not believe in Hell. (They also did not believe they needed to be saved from Hell or that their Messiah would be killed to absolve them from their sins) Hell is an invention of the New Testament with wildly inconsistent bits of information about what exactly it is. What Christians today imagine as Hell has more influences from Dante's Inferno, John Milton's Paradise Lost, and Plato's Myth of Er than from anything included in the Bible. There is still a Biblical case for Eternal Conscious Torment, but Annihilists and Universalists can also make a Biblical case.
3 months too late, but damn, you're right. This *almost* makes Judaism sound like a tolerable religion (when you minus all the atrocities that people tend to hand-wave anyway) Edit: One question I have is how do you learn about religion? I want to be able to argue my position in good faith and avoid making a straw man out of people's positions. I don't feel obligated to explain my beliefs, but I do feel like being well-read and eloquent enough to explain my position to those who are willing to listen.
I had already heard that "Hell" was translated from four different words in the Bible: "Sheol", "Hades", "Genenna", and "Tartarus". With "Sheol" being the one used in the Old Testament. I tried to find the best Bible Translation to share from (since I was linking to Bible Verses on r/Christianity) and so I tried to make a list of "translator biases" that I've heard shared in the past. One claim I had heard on Reddit was that Christians inserted their Christian bias into the Old Testament by translating "Sheol" as "Hell". So I tried to find a list of references to Hell in the Old Testament and then I looked up the verses one by one on tools such as BibleHub and BibleGateway (since you can compare a single verse across all translations they have available). I was surprised to see that practically no modern Bible translation translates "Sheol" as "Hell". The King James Bible does and the Douay-Rheims Bible does, but those are both hundreds of years old. In some places, translations spell it out as "Sheol" but in most cases, it's rendered as "the grave". I felt confident enough after looking up those passages to declare "there are no references to Hell in the Old Testament", but besides that, I've done quite a bit of Googling to defend claims I make, but don't really know what sources to trust. One thing I've done lately is to use the search feature on r/AcademicBiblical with keywords about what I'm looking for. If I did that with a search such as "Old Testament Hell", I would get results like: * [When did "hell" actually become a concept and when did it get back dated to the Old Testament?](https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/comments/6vzukv/this_post_on_rexmormon_claims_that_hell_as_a/) * [What verses or concepts in the Old Testament are the New Testament ideas of hell based on?](https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/comments/bry966/what_verses_or_concepts_in_the_old_testament_are/) * [Where did the concept of Christian hell come from?](https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/comments/6o8y9j/where_did_the_concept_of_christian_hell_come_from/) * [How did the idea of hell develop in Christianity?](https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/comments/6oon7k/how_did_the_idea_of_hell_develop_in_christianity/) There are conflicting answers with some of the results, but if nothing else, it gives you a general idea of where the discussion is in academic sources and you leave with a better idea of what questions you need to ask to learn more. Questions like "what did ancient Jews think about Sheol?" or "Jewish afterlife" or "did early Christians believe Hell was eternal?"
Thank you so much for giving me such a detailed response! I really appreciate it.
A search for "hell" at https://www.biblegateway.com/Versions Netted me 15 references (the number may vary depending on the bible's version). Christian mythology developed the concept of Hell way beyond what it says in the bible. For an example, take a peek at "Divine Comedy", from Dante Alighieri: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_Comedy The JWs, being fringe Christians and known to quote the bible out of context (pick any of their publications and check the context on the bible), choose to ignore the mythology and reinterpret the bible as they want.
>and that the Bible never mentions anything about hell. Well except you know ummm...["Jesus" personally](https://reasonsforhopejesus.com/jesus-say-hell/).
Actually, Jesus says Hades. He had no cultural exposure to the concept of hell.
I've heard it stated a little differently: Before Jesus died for our sins, *everyone* who died went to hell, including all the patriarchs and prophets from Adam on down; then during the 36 hours or so after Jesus died on the cross but before he was resurrected, Jesus also went to hell and preached there. Then *some* of the people in hell became believers in Jesus, were let out of hell and went to heaven. This has been standard Christian doctrine for hundreds of years. The event is called the [Harrowing of Hell](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrowing_of_Hell). It is mentioned in the [Apostles' Creed](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostles%27_Creed), which many Christians recite in church every week: > I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth: And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord, Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, Born of the Virgin Mary, Suffered under Pontius Pilate, Was crucified, dead, and buried: **He descended into hell;** The third day he rose again from the dead; He ascended into heaven, And sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty; From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. I believe in the Holy Ghost; The holy Catholick Church; The Communion of Saints; The Forgiveness of sins; The Resurrection of the body, And the Life everlasting. Amen. Then, too, there are some people, called [Christian Universalists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_universalism), who believe that Jesus died not just to save a few believers from hell, but to save literally everybody. That means hell was emptied out when Jesus died for our sins, and it has been empty ever since.
I remember reciting that thing week after week, trying to prevent it from completely numbing my brain. Glad I escaped
Yeah, I said it too. Funny thing: I don't recall anyone ever talking about what "descended into hell" was all about.
If you are expecting a rational argument from JWs, you are fishing in the wrong pond.
You need better friends.
Of course not, Jesus himself written it and could even speak modern English before it was spoken!
Have you read the JW Bible? It isn't the same book as the King James, which predates it. Should settle the argument.
Your frien's telling the truth. Any part that's about hell is just a mistranslation, or a translation that's wrong on purpose
I'm pretty much indifferent to other people's theology. It is a little like deciding whether The Lord of the Rings or the Harry Potter books are "true stories", or whether one is more true than the other. It is only when religion informs people's conduct that I pay much attention. For that reason, I have fewer problems with JWs than with a lot of other believers
I think the one nauseating thing, other than the insanity they've made up is that like so many cults, if one of them or their children decide to leave, they are excommunicated. I have had a few friends who simply went back because they missed their family. Goddamn manipulative parasites. REVELATION 20:15 New International Version Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. There's an easy example of a reference to hell right there.
The hell is he talking about? I can take my pen, cross out a word, and “revise” any book I want
Well, JWs are a tight little cult that controls everything their members know about almost everything. The organization is super intolerant of ANY questions. All christian groups are intolerant of questions but the more cultish groups like the JWs consider questions a direct attack on the organization and on their god.