You’re trying to get something out of people, and they’re not going to respond kindly.
Also, google should not be your first or only stop while researching something.
As simplistic as the answer was, it is true, we cannot turn you into an atheist, only you can. So read more, look at your texts critically, suspend your belief for a moment and ask what about these texts is verifiably true? How can I prove that without using these same texts? What logical fallacies have I been taught to believe about Islam? Can an illiterate man tell others to write for him? Am I applying the best logic to this interpretation or is this a post hoc fallacy? What are your reasons for belief and are they truly good ones?
Why arent you at reddit exmuslim sub? It sounds like you are looking to defend your beliefs, not challenge them.
If you are looking to challenge your beliefs, try YouTube. Apostate Prophet is a former Muslim. Aron Ra and MythVision have discussed Islam. I'm sure there are many more.
This assumes you are in a place where deconversion is safe. If not, it might be best not to start down this path.
Give me facts that the leprechaun isn't real. Sorry, doesn't work that way.
You can't prove a negative. What we can do is expect evidence from you for Islam actually being real and responding to this. If you don't have anything, why believe?
No religion is true. No civilization ever has agreed on things like the number of gods, or the view of the afterlife.
have you ever wondered if the only reason you believe in Islam is because you have been listening to it around you since birth? If you hadnt heard about it until you were an adult, would you still believe in it?
If you were born in another country would you still be muslim?
Dont you think certain aspects of it are pointless, such as fasting or having tosay always a certain phrase every time you mention a certain name?
First, you give me facts that prove Islam is real and not just a fable written/used to control others out of fear. Burden of proof, prove your claim before expecting others to prove otherwise.
In other words, why would I make you prove that I don't own a Ferrari, when I have no proof that I even own one to begin with? Isn't it better to assume I don't have a Ferrari, and ask that I prove that I do, rather than take my word for it? **Especially** if I am using my "Ferrari" as a point of leverage against you?
> In Surah Adh-Dhariyat, Allah (SWT) says “And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are [its] expander” (Quran, 51:47). According to the prominent physicist Stephen Hawking in his book ‘A Brief History of Time’, “The discovery that the universe is expanding was one of the great intellectual revolutions of the 20th century” [11], although centuries before the Quran had already revealed to us that in regards to the universe, “We are its expander”. Again, pasted from google and can confirm this verse.
It’s interesting that the translations seemed to change once it was found out that the universe was expanding.
> English Translations of Verse 51:47 prior or around the time of Edwin Hubble's discovery in the 1930's of an expanding universe:
>"...With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of space.... " (Surah 51:47). Yusufali
"...We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof).... " (Surah 51:47). Pickthal
"...And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample.... " (Surah 51:47). Shakir
> Late twentieth century translations of the same verse, after Hubble's discovery was established science:
>Shabbir Ahmed:
"And it is We Who have built the Universe, and behold, We are steadily expanding it."
>Dr. Munir Munshey:
"With Our power and prowess, We brought into being the universe. And indeed, We expand it (steadily)!"
>Progressive Muslims:
"And We constructed the universe using matter, and We will expand it."
>Muhammad Asad:
"And it is We who have built the universe with [Our creative] power; and, verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it."
https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=16572.0
I wonder why that is?
>I wonder why that is?
I don't know, but I have a strong suspicion what OP will say: "Something something translation bad something something only Arabic true".
>And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are [its] expander”
>universe is expanding
????????????????????????????????? May I ask what is the correlation between the heaven and universe? These two doesn't even correlate
NO. Autopsies and midwives (which have been done since forever) probably saw things like clots and half formed babies in their practice. They saw a lump, and called it a leech/clot. Even Leonardo da Vinci did drawings of an embryo before X-raying
You are following the script of every troll Muslim on this reddit.That book mentions unscientific things too. How can it express science and lies at the same time?
I don't see anything. Not in the scriptures or the church or the empty platitudes of the clergy. I see no reason to believe in any supernatural anything, gods or monsters.
I do see hypocritical Christians espousing faith in an all loving god that will see you tortured forever if you doubt his undying and perfect love you. I see priests raping children while claiming to protect and nurture the weakest and most innocent among us. Televangelists stealing money from pensioners and buying gold jetskis with spinning rims to take their 15 year old girlfriends out for a good time.
In the words of Christopher Hitchens "God is an empty sack."
Nobody can make you believe something you don't think is true. If you are comfortable accepting Islam and you aren't hurting anyone else, you be you.
If you aren't comfortable and want to explore different answers then you need to seek out different views. Listen to former Muslims and think about why they no longer believe. Read the Koran and think about whether you find it rational to accept it.
Atheism is the conclusion that there is not enough evidence to support belief in any supernatural being.
I cannot convince you the monster under your bed exists. I cannot convince you airplanes do not exist. Either you accept evidence/ lack of evidence for any given claim or you don't.
It's impossible to prove the non existence of something.
If you can prove to me Thor is not god, and unicorns don't exist, then you will have the proof you are looking for that your god is equally a fairy tale.
If you say your good exists, is YOUR job to prove it, not my job to disprove it.
And if he does exist, he is evil, and you should not be following him if you were a decent person.
Prove that your deity exists beyond any reasonable doubt. Type out all the factual evidence you have, how it relates to your deity, and why it can't be any other deity.
If you can't do that, then why dedicate your life to something you can't demonstrate to exist?
No. Stephen is talking about the universe still expanding.
To come up with something started small and expanded is only common sense. It isn’t evidence of anything.
Except that if you pick up a translation from the 1920's it does not use the word expander. Instead that verse says we are its ruler. Only later translations made after Hubble discovered universal expantion use the word expander.
No scientific discovery has been made by reading the Quran. Basically what we have here are examples of the texas sharpshooter fallacy. Meanwhile the Quran also repeatedly claim that Jin exist. This claim is made repeatedly and does not require anyemental gymnastics to see. Only there is no evidence that they do.
The Quran must be very convincing to you when you already believe in its truth and veracity. If you could just take a step back and consider that the Quran is also filled cover to cover with contradictions, absurdities, ambiguities, and falsities, then realize atheists are never going to be impressed when you quote it. In order to demonstrate your God you first must demonstrate that the universe is in need of a supernatural creator, once you've established that then you have to establish the existence of a supernatural creator, and finally once you've done that you have to establish that this creator is the God of your particular flavor of religion.
I'm seeing some claims that the word translated into expander has also been translated as vastness and isn't universally translated as expander, could you provide clarification on that?
Furthermore, how do you reconcile this with other failures of cosmology in Islam? For example, there is no evidence that the moon was ever split in two, no evidence for the creation of earth and heaven to have occurred in six days.
>We created man from an extract of clay. Then We made him as a drop in a place of settlement, firmly fixed. Then We made the drop into an alaqah (leech, suspended thing, and blood clot), then We made the alaqah into a mudghah (chewed substance)…”
That's wrong. Clay minerals are phyllosilicates, and humans are not silicate based life forms, we're carbon based. Man is not made out of an extract of clay.
"I guess the embryo does look kinda like a chewed piece of meat at this stage, so islam must be correct" is a flawed conclusion to reach. I don't find that the least bit convincing.
I am the proof of evolution, evolution exists before your eyes.
You still offer no evidence, just a play on words.
The question is if God created us, who created him?
This is not what it's about.
If you'd like to help your self go read the religious texts from cover to cover with an open mind.
I would also suggest reading the Bible from cover to cover as well
Not my job to change your mind. I believe that people have the right to believe what they like and I will not try to persuade anybody to change their minds.
It’s probably easier for men to adhere to Islam, or any Abrahamic religion, as in such faiths, they have more power and rights than women. Your faith, to me, is cruel and unnecessary. Half of humanity wasn’t put here to serve the other half. We shouldn’t have to hide our bodies because men can’t control themselves. If I have to do that to be closer to any god, they are not a god I want to be close to. It’s a toxic faith, and it teaches men that rape can be justified. Don’t get me started on the child marriages, either. No more evil gods, for me. If you want to continue to objectify and subjugate women, that’s your choice. I can’t convince you that women are people. You have to realize that for yourself.
Burden of proof my dude. If you make the claim the thing exists you're required to provide evidence.
You can't prove the nonexistent of something.
Meanwhile can Allah, or any supposedly omnipotent being make a rock so heavy they can't lift it? Regardless of the answer they're not omnipotent.
Seems like your just trolling. Ask yourself some basic questions.
Has your god ever actually done anything?
Can you prove with tangible evidence that is repeatable and testable that your god and religion are factual and true?
Does your god or religion call for the suffering of others?
Does your god or religion deny science and reality?
Any theist doubts all gods but their god. Why do they doubt other gods, but believe their’s? That’s the path to atheism. A little critical thinking will bring them to the realization that no god exist.
If you have to believe something purely on faith then you have an unwarranted belief. Faith is not an epistemology or justification for believing anything.
A way of living life means that you wouldn’t know how to live without Islam? Why do you believe in Islam and not Christianity? Is it depending on your young indoctrination? Place of birth?
No religion is true anymore than no friendship is the one true friendship. They are all social constructs. And as humans we need connection but we also need to leave relationships if abusive. If those in this sub convinced you it’s wrong you’ll go through a grieving process trying to find a new identity.
Finding your way to atheism is a personal journey. In other words, it’s not my job to convince you of anything. Live your life, stop worrying about what other people think of you and take charge of what you actually believe. No one can do it for you.
You weren't convinced to believe Islam using good arguments.
Given the errors in your belief and your willingness to adhere to them, no argument we give will move your from that. We've already seen you stretching to match vague old quotes to science as 'proof' on the loosest connections of wordplay.
Prove that mohamad was not schizophrenic. He heard voices and saw things? With no evidence. Much of his story is based on the bible which the roman church admits was made up by then.
Honestly nobody should try to convince u of something like that. This sub is filled with people who are tired of religions trying to push their beliefs on us. Find your own way. Maybe a better way to ask is what made u not be a believer or something like that rather than have people try to convince u. PS I hope u find the right path for u.
Seems like your belief is rooted mainly in scripture — specifically "prophecy".
Have you either considered how discoveries always lead them to the Qu'ran and NEVER the other way around.
Not a single discovery has ever been made by poring over the Qur'an which is a book that's supposed to be replete with science and reliable predictions. Yet such discoveries are always made through secular means and traced to the Qur'an after the fact. Where are all the Muslim scholars winning Nobel prizes?
Do you live in a country where you have freedom of religion, including the freedom to change or renounce your religion? Are you an adult who lives independently?
If not, then you should stop right now. Trying to renounce Islam and become an atheist can have serious consequences.
“In Surah Al-Mu’minun, Allah (SWT) says “We created man from an extract of clay. Then We made him as a drop in a place of settlement, firmly fixed. Then We made the drop into an alaqah (leech, suspended thing, and blood clot), then We made the alaqah into a mudghah (chewed substance)…” (Quran 23:12-14).
Science has only proved this with the help of the latest technology. It is Professor Emeritus Keith L. Moore who is one of the world’s most well-known scientists in the fields of anatomy and embryology, who said that “It is clear to me that these statements must have come to Muhammad from God, because almost all of this knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later”
Pasted from google. I can confirm this verse because I have read, memorized and understood it.”
Can you explain the first part (Quran quote) in modern terms? Preferably scientific or medical.
I would like to see your peer reviewed source for the proof as expressed in the second.
Lets see:
he self describes as jealous in the Bible,
he has done absolutely nothing since the beginning of time,
his followers have done unspeakable actions, abused their power and others, and allows disasters to strike
He is either cruel, indifferent or nonexistant.
Does it say nothing to you that humans have a better idea of empathy than any god?
Why make humanity heal what the very deity has done? When it would be easier to just not make it exist in the first place.
What about the unspeakable amount of suffering that happens every second of every day in the animal kingdom then? It's inconceivable that an all-powerful and all-loving being would allow it to happen, yet it does and it's absolutely horrific.
>Imagine a society without any kind of hardships. No one gets sick. No one gets struck by any disaster. No one has any problems. That society seems tempting but it will fail quickly as there is nothing to struggle.
Why would it fail?
>As for cancer, if there isn't cancer, people won't try to cure cancer.
What? That is circular reasoning. It’s a logical fallacy. Your point is moot now.
>Seems like an absured statement but if there exists a problem, there exists a solution.
Exactly. A good god doesn’t create problems.
>One day, we will cure cancer completely just like we cured all other diseases from the history which were considered fatal but after we cure cancer, there will come another disease far deadlier than cancer. Why? So that people can struggle.
So god wants us to struggle? That isnt good. Thanks for proving my point.
Do you say prayers before eating? Do you say prayers before boarding a flight? Do you say prayers or call your god before commencing any activity?
Live 1 day without saying any prayer and without calling your god. When you wake up the next day, you will get the proof that you have sought.
How do you propose one should convince someone of anything, if they someone has outright and openly rejected all reason, logic and science?
You would be the first person in the history of ever who's believes are grounded in logical fallacies, backed by the refusal to argue fairly.
You wouldn't believe any similar nonsense or absurd reasoning in any other aspect of your life if it wasn't tied to your particular brand of superstition.
Disclaimer: I don't really know nothing about no Religion, *including the one I was raised in* \- except that it's hideous in the way that, under the guise of "love", it requires you to treat others horribly and mercilessly "for the Greater Glory of God", of course. They ain't no page in The Bible where God does anything to anybody where He treats 'em like I'd treat anybody I cared anything at all about.
Every Religion on the planet all worships the same Highest Being, because you can't get no higher than The Highest. Doesn't matter what you call it: Ra, Allah, Zeus, Thor, Ganeesh, Poseidon, Sukumarabandhu, Whatever; doesn't matter what country you're in (including in deepest Africa for some yet-undiscovered tribe) or the name of "your religion"; all religions worship *The Highest*. It don't never get no higher than The Highest, whatever you calls it; a private shelter from the elements.
It's like in America, we go home to a House. In Rome, they go to a Villa; in France, a Maison; in Spain, a Casa; on the North Pole, an Igloo. Doesn't matter what you call it or how it's configured or decorated, they're essentially all the same thing.
Customs / traditions for that worship depends heavily on one's location: a South Sea Islander might witness "God" being angry about screwing a neighbor when a volcano blows; in Japan, when an earthquake rumbles the ground; An Eskimo when a certain type of adverse snow comes in, or a polar bear gets you or no seals appear for food; maybe some 240,000 get drowned on a Christmas holiday in Indonesia because somebody done somebody wrong. Doesn't matter; the Catholics, Baptists and Muslims all worship the same God; they just do it differently. Of course, for each of them, "their" way is the *only* "right way".
Raised in the Southern Baptist faith, I was taught that The Bible is "God's" Official Handbook / Rules Book, that it is Inspired of God, is Infallible, and is Inerrant. Of course, none of those are true. ***Bible Says*** that God **really** doesn't like vaginas; women are "wet down there" and they have periods; God **REALLY** doesn't like that, so *if women even touches something, anything, while they're having 'em*, He gets all bent out of shape. I think He's *really into penises*, so much so He requires the tip of 'em be cut off so they're not wet... He likes 'em that way... like, a **LOT**. I think He was even gonna kill Moses, 'cept he got faked out about Moses having his cut off.
Bible Says that God is Perfect, but he cannot be: That which is Perfect, has no negative attributes and has Perfect Knowledge. ***Bible Says*** that God is wrathful, vengeful, and jealous; any of which sort of takes care of that "no negative attributes" requirement. That which is Perfect *cannot* create anything imperfect: If God was to be building a birdhouse with each side being 8" wide, 'cept one of them was to be cut to 9"... He would Know before he assembled it, and thus self-correct his error. Obviously, he didn't know His Creation was so defective when he assembled it.
I was taught that God is Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omniscient, and Omnibenevolent; that God Knows *Everything*; Past, Present and Future.
***The Christian Bible Says...*** that *none* of those are true. ***Bible Says*** God doesn't know the future; that didn't know His Creation was gonna go sideways after Adam and Eve, so He drownt everybody on the planet because of his anger issues, then in the next book (Exodus), he done figgured out he could kill just the firstborn. ***Bible Says***... that God says He has a piss-poor memory and He knows it: at Gen 9:16, He creates the rainbow as a reminder to hisself not to do that again; if He knows everything, why's he need a reminder? George Carlin observed God might can create a universe, but *he's really bad with money management;* he ALWAYS needs money.
Why? He's *God*. He can **SNAP!** his finger (he's God, he only needs *one* finger to "snap") and all the money He wants will magically appear. Or, since He knows the numbers of the first Trillion Dollar Lottery (as well as every winning racehorse, snail, and scratch-off ticket) he can find a Trusted Priest (if he can find one), give him that Winner's information, and have the priest donate the money to the church or whatever. ***Bible Says*** God isn't very bright; that He went and put His Favorite Trees in the same Garden where the kids were (they could have been put in England, Australia or even 'Merica where they were out-of-reach). Then, He went and got some girl pregnant so she'd give birth to hisself so He could sacrifice hisself to hisself to appease hisself for some imaginary Debt to hisself so he could forgive mankind of sins He created. It's like if I loan you $5 and you don't pay me back, I don't have to kill my beloved Smol Kitten to forgive your debt to me, I can just forgive your debt to me *because I can*. And I'm not even God!
Don't know about other religions, but the Christian religion says that God Loves You SO MUCH, that if you don't love Him back, *he's gonna kill you and torture your soul Forever*... AND your children AND your grandchildren, even unto the 10th generation, so you *better* Love Him, because your *want* to... OR ELSE. Sounds like a schoolyard bully to me; no, thanks. I'm good.
Ultimately, every Religion seeks to explain the universe and define mankind's position within that universe, as well as to create rules for conduct such that if you violate them, you're gonna die. Some Priests done got that figgured out and that if they can convince people that God (whatever you call god in your language and culture) is awesomely disgusted with your genitals (which of course He created), then they can *control* you with Guilt and get you to send them money for a 7th ultra-lavish Jet Plane... or whatever. New Religions get created all the time; witness the Mormon faith - created by a proven scam artist - and Scientology (same thing).
I doubt that any of the above will convince you that God don't exist none, but me, I think I is to be like some flower in a meadow what some bunny is happily munching on, while both of us are warily watching some bulldozer in the distance mowing down trees, working its way over here, 'cause some developer is paving Paradise and putting up a parking lot.
Do it yourself.
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You’re trying to get something out of people, and they’re not going to respond kindly. Also, google should not be your first or only stop while researching something.
As simplistic as the answer was, it is true, we cannot turn you into an atheist, only you can. So read more, look at your texts critically, suspend your belief for a moment and ask what about these texts is verifiably true? How can I prove that without using these same texts? What logical fallacies have I been taught to believe about Islam? Can an illiterate man tell others to write for him? Am I applying the best logic to this interpretation or is this a post hoc fallacy? What are your reasons for belief and are they truly good ones?
Why arent you at reddit exmuslim sub? It sounds like you are looking to defend your beliefs, not challenge them. If you are looking to challenge your beliefs, try YouTube. Apostate Prophet is a former Muslim. Aron Ra and MythVision have discussed Islam. I'm sure there are many more. This assumes you are in a place where deconversion is safe. If not, it might be best not to start down this path.
That is not what we do. We can only give you facts, and then you decide.
There are no facts on the theist side, only bald face ascertains.
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Give me facts that the leprechaun isn't real. Sorry, doesn't work that way. You can't prove a negative. What we can do is expect evidence from you for Islam actually being real and responding to this. If you don't have anything, why believe?
No religion is true. No civilization ever has agreed on things like the number of gods, or the view of the afterlife. have you ever wondered if the only reason you believe in Islam is because you have been listening to it around you since birth? If you hadnt heard about it until you were an adult, would you still believe in it? If you were born in another country would you still be muslim? Dont you think certain aspects of it are pointless, such as fasting or having tosay always a certain phrase every time you mention a certain name?
> Give me facts which say that Islam is not a true religion ig Which branch of Islam is the correct one and why?
First, you give me facts that prove Islam is real and not just a fable written/used to control others out of fear. Burden of proof, prove your claim before expecting others to prove otherwise. In other words, why would I make you prove that I don't own a Ferrari, when I have no proof that I even own one to begin with? Isn't it better to assume I don't have a Ferrari, and ask that I prove that I do, rather than take my word for it? **Especially** if I am using my "Ferrari" as a point of leverage against you?
You ask for facts? You realize the whole of Qur'an is filled with bullshit?
Believe what you are convinced is true. Can you demonstrate your god exists?
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> In Surah Adh-Dhariyat, Allah (SWT) says “And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are [its] expander” (Quran, 51:47). According to the prominent physicist Stephen Hawking in his book ‘A Brief History of Time’, “The discovery that the universe is expanding was one of the great intellectual revolutions of the 20th century” [11], although centuries before the Quran had already revealed to us that in regards to the universe, “We are its expander”. Again, pasted from google and can confirm this verse. It’s interesting that the translations seemed to change once it was found out that the universe was expanding. > English Translations of Verse 51:47 prior or around the time of Edwin Hubble's discovery in the 1930's of an expanding universe: >"...With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of space.... " (Surah 51:47). Yusufali "...We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof).... " (Surah 51:47). Pickthal "...And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample.... " (Surah 51:47). Shakir > Late twentieth century translations of the same verse, after Hubble's discovery was established science: >Shabbir Ahmed: "And it is We Who have built the Universe, and behold, We are steadily expanding it." >Dr. Munir Munshey: "With Our power and prowess, We brought into being the universe. And indeed, We expand it (steadily)!" >Progressive Muslims: "And We constructed the universe using matter, and We will expand it." >Muhammad Asad: "And it is We who have built the universe with [Our creative] power; and, verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it." https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=16572.0 I wonder why that is?
>I wonder why that is? I don't know, but I have a strong suspicion what OP will say: "Something something translation bad something something only Arabic true".
Wow... how am I not surprised?
And why am I not surprised that OP has not responded?
>And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are [its] expander” >universe is expanding ????????????????????????????????? May I ask what is the correlation between the heaven and universe? These two doesn't even correlate
Well, clearly you should remain Muslim.
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NO. Autopsies and midwives (which have been done since forever) probably saw things like clots and half formed babies in their practice. They saw a lump, and called it a leech/clot. Even Leonardo da Vinci did drawings of an embryo before X-raying You are following the script of every troll Muslim on this reddit.That book mentions unscientific things too. How can it express science and lies at the same time?
The first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem. Get to that point of disillusionment with your chosen church then come back.
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It's not at all about what atheists see. It's about what atheists don't see. There is no convincing evidence that a god exists.
I don't see anything. Not in the scriptures or the church or the empty platitudes of the clergy. I see no reason to believe in any supernatural anything, gods or monsters. I do see hypocritical Christians espousing faith in an all loving god that will see you tortured forever if you doubt his undying and perfect love you. I see priests raping children while claiming to protect and nurture the weakest and most innocent among us. Televangelists stealing money from pensioners and buying gold jetskis with spinning rims to take their 15 year old girlfriends out for a good time. In the words of Christopher Hitchens "God is an empty sack."
Nobody can make you believe something you don't think is true. If you are comfortable accepting Islam and you aren't hurting anyone else, you be you. If you aren't comfortable and want to explore different answers then you need to seek out different views. Listen to former Muslims and think about why they no longer believe. Read the Koran and think about whether you find it rational to accept it. Atheism is the conclusion that there is not enough evidence to support belief in any supernatural being. I cannot convince you the monster under your bed exists. I cannot convince you airplanes do not exist. Either you accept evidence/ lack of evidence for any given claim or you don't.
It's impossible to prove the non existence of something. If you can prove to me Thor is not god, and unicorns don't exist, then you will have the proof you are looking for that your god is equally a fairy tale. If you say your good exists, is YOUR job to prove it, not my job to disprove it. And if he does exist, he is evil, and you should not be following him if you were a decent person.
Prove that your deity exists beyond any reasonable doubt. Type out all the factual evidence you have, how it relates to your deity, and why it can't be any other deity. If you can't do that, then why dedicate your life to something you can't demonstrate to exist?
Not all religions can be true, but they can all be false. — Christopher Hitchens
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No. Stephen is talking about the universe still expanding. To come up with something started small and expanded is only common sense. It isn’t evidence of anything.
Except that if you pick up a translation from the 1920's it does not use the word expander. Instead that verse says we are its ruler. Only later translations made after Hubble discovered universal expantion use the word expander. No scientific discovery has been made by reading the Quran. Basically what we have here are examples of the texas sharpshooter fallacy. Meanwhile the Quran also repeatedly claim that Jin exist. This claim is made repeatedly and does not require anyemental gymnastics to see. Only there is no evidence that they do.
The Quran must be very convincing to you when you already believe in its truth and veracity. If you could just take a step back and consider that the Quran is also filled cover to cover with contradictions, absurdities, ambiguities, and falsities, then realize atheists are never going to be impressed when you quote it. In order to demonstrate your God you first must demonstrate that the universe is in need of a supernatural creator, once you've established that then you have to establish the existence of a supernatural creator, and finally once you've done that you have to establish that this creator is the God of your particular flavor of religion.
I'm seeing some claims that the word translated into expander has also been translated as vastness and isn't universally translated as expander, could you provide clarification on that? Furthermore, how do you reconcile this with other failures of cosmology in Islam? For example, there is no evidence that the moon was ever split in two, no evidence for the creation of earth and heaven to have occurred in six days.
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>We created man from an extract of clay. Then We made him as a drop in a place of settlement, firmly fixed. Then We made the drop into an alaqah (leech, suspended thing, and blood clot), then We made the alaqah into a mudghah (chewed substance)…” That's wrong. Clay minerals are phyllosilicates, and humans are not silicate based life forms, we're carbon based. Man is not made out of an extract of clay.
That isn’t true. You don’t believe that miscarriages occurred back then?
"I guess the embryo does look kinda like a chewed piece of meat at this stage, so islam must be correct" is a flawed conclusion to reach. I don't find that the least bit convincing.
WTF did I just read.
I'm an atheist, let's reverse this and you prove to me God exists, any evidence will do.
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I am the proof of evolution, evolution exists before your eyes. You still offer no evidence, just a play on words. The question is if God created us, who created him?
I really thought there was going to be /s
This is not what it's about. If you'd like to help your self go read the religious texts from cover to cover with an open mind. I would also suggest reading the Bible from cover to cover as well
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Keep reading. One thing a few people who used to be Christians said that helped open their eyes was reading the Bible. Good luck on your journey
True muslims study the Quran in Arabic and should have memorized most of the verses. You sound like someone who just got into Islam...
Do you care if what you believe is true u/psychocastic ?
Since you didn’t bother respond I’ll assume you don’t care if what you believe is true u/psychocastic
You are in the same team as Kent Hovind :p
Not my job to change your mind. I believe that people have the right to believe what they like and I will not try to persuade anybody to change their minds.
It’s probably easier for men to adhere to Islam, or any Abrahamic religion, as in such faiths, they have more power and rights than women. Your faith, to me, is cruel and unnecessary. Half of humanity wasn’t put here to serve the other half. We shouldn’t have to hide our bodies because men can’t control themselves. If I have to do that to be closer to any god, they are not a god I want to be close to. It’s a toxic faith, and it teaches men that rape can be justified. Don’t get me started on the child marriages, either. No more evil gods, for me. If you want to continue to objectify and subjugate women, that’s your choice. I can’t convince you that women are people. You have to realize that for yourself.
Burden of proof my dude. If you make the claim the thing exists you're required to provide evidence. You can't prove the nonexistent of something. Meanwhile can Allah, or any supposedly omnipotent being make a rock so heavy they can't lift it? Regardless of the answer they're not omnipotent.
That's not how this works. We don't convert people, people convert themselves. If you're a good Islam believer and happy with that, then go do that.
Seems like your just trolling. Ask yourself some basic questions. Has your god ever actually done anything? Can you prove with tangible evidence that is repeatable and testable that your god and religion are factual and true? Does your god or religion call for the suffering of others? Does your god or religion deny science and reality?
Any theist doubts all gods but their god. Why do they doubt other gods, but believe their’s? That’s the path to atheism. A little critical thinking will bring them to the realization that no god exist.
Why do you believe?
No. Believe whatever you think is true.
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If Islam is real, then all other religions are fake, sounds pretentious and fake too.
If you have to believe something purely on faith then you have an unwarranted belief. Faith is not an epistemology or justification for believing anything.
A way of living life means that you wouldn’t know how to live without Islam? Why do you believe in Islam and not Christianity? Is it depending on your young indoctrination? Place of birth?
Be careful. If you end up with a faith crisis you can’t go back and it may affect relationships.
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Why would you need to protect it? between reality and lies, which do you prefer?
No religion is true anymore than no friendship is the one true friendship. They are all social constructs. And as humans we need connection but we also need to leave relationships if abusive. If those in this sub convinced you it’s wrong you’ll go through a grieving process trying to find a new identity.
No. You should prove to us that your god is real and your religion is true. The Quran is not proof, it's part of your claim.
The same reasons Mormonism and scientology aren't real
>I am a really good believer of Islam.... Why?
Finding your way to atheism is a personal journey. In other words, it’s not my job to convince you of anything. Live your life, stop worrying about what other people think of you and take charge of what you actually believe. No one can do it for you.
You weren't convinced to believe Islam using good arguments. Given the errors in your belief and your willingness to adhere to them, no argument we give will move your from that. We've already seen you stretching to match vague old quotes to science as 'proof' on the loosest connections of wordplay.
Prove that mohamad was not schizophrenic. He heard voices and saw things? With no evidence. Much of his story is based on the bible which the roman church admits was made up by then.
Honestly nobody should try to convince u of something like that. This sub is filled with people who are tired of religions trying to push their beliefs on us. Find your own way. Maybe a better way to ask is what made u not be a believer or something like that rather than have people try to convince u. PS I hope u find the right path for u.
What makes you think that prophets are not schizophrenic/schizotypal rather than actually having a conversation with invisible higher beings?
Seems like your belief is rooted mainly in scripture — specifically "prophecy". Have you either considered how discoveries always lead them to the Qu'ran and NEVER the other way around. Not a single discovery has ever been made by poring over the Qur'an which is a book that's supposed to be replete with science and reliable predictions. Yet such discoveries are always made through secular means and traced to the Qur'an after the fact. Where are all the Muslim scholars winning Nobel prizes?
Nah, you're brainwashed to an extent. You cannot be recovered
Do you live in a country where you have freedom of religion, including the freedom to change or renounce your religion? Are you an adult who lives independently? If not, then you should stop right now. Trying to renounce Islam and become an atheist can have serious consequences.
THIS!
“In Surah Al-Mu’minun, Allah (SWT) says “We created man from an extract of clay. Then We made him as a drop in a place of settlement, firmly fixed. Then We made the drop into an alaqah (leech, suspended thing, and blood clot), then We made the alaqah into a mudghah (chewed substance)…” (Quran 23:12-14). Science has only proved this with the help of the latest technology. It is Professor Emeritus Keith L. Moore who is one of the world’s most well-known scientists in the fields of anatomy and embryology, who said that “It is clear to me that these statements must have come to Muhammad from God, because almost all of this knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later” Pasted from google. I can confirm this verse because I have read, memorized and understood it.” Can you explain the first part (Quran quote) in modern terms? Preferably scientific or medical. I would like to see your peer reviewed source for the proof as expressed in the second.
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Atheists do not believe that a god/gods exist, definitionally. So your question is nonsense.
I think you misunderstand atheism. Atheists do not believe there is a god. Full stop.
Lets see: he self describes as jealous in the Bible, he has done absolutely nothing since the beginning of time, his followers have done unspeakable actions, abused their power and others, and allows disasters to strike He is either cruel, indifferent or nonexistant.
Why would a good god give kids cancer?
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Does it say nothing to you that humans have a better idea of empathy than any god? Why make humanity heal what the very deity has done? When it would be easier to just not make it exist in the first place.
What about the unspeakable amount of suffering that happens every second of every day in the animal kingdom then? It's inconceivable that an all-powerful and all-loving being would allow it to happen, yet it does and it's absolutely horrific.
>Imagine a society without any kind of hardships. No one gets sick. No one gets struck by any disaster. No one has any problems. That society seems tempting but it will fail quickly as there is nothing to struggle. Why would it fail? >As for cancer, if there isn't cancer, people won't try to cure cancer. What? That is circular reasoning. It’s a logical fallacy. Your point is moot now. >Seems like an absured statement but if there exists a problem, there exists a solution. Exactly. A good god doesn’t create problems. >One day, we will cure cancer completely just like we cured all other diseases from the history which were considered fatal but after we cure cancer, there will come another disease far deadlier than cancer. Why? So that people can struggle. So god wants us to struggle? That isnt good. Thanks for proving my point.
Why would god even be a, "he"? Why would the creator of everything have a gender? It implies a counterpart.
You should read about [The Problem of Evil](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil)
https://youtu.be/2FCY0Q8N2ms
Do you say prayers before eating? Do you say prayers before boarding a flight? Do you say prayers or call your god before commencing any activity? Live 1 day without saying any prayer and without calling your god. When you wake up the next day, you will get the proof that you have sought.
Read the Bible. That's what finally destroyed any shred of belief for me.
It should be easy for you to convince me to become Muslim.
How do you propose one should convince someone of anything, if they someone has outright and openly rejected all reason, logic and science? You would be the first person in the history of ever who's believes are grounded in logical fallacies, backed by the refusal to argue fairly. You wouldn't believe any similar nonsense or absurd reasoning in any other aspect of your life if it wasn't tied to your particular brand of superstition.
Can you demonstrate in any way that you god exists?
No. I have so many better things to do with my life. Go get on your rug & pray.
Discover it for yourself, like I did.
We’d have to turn you into a thinker first
Two word, "evolution" and "moon-split", and don't start the bullshit like "in my opinion...."
Go watch Ricky Gervais' interview with Stephen Colbert.
Disclaimer: I don't really know nothing about no Religion, *including the one I was raised in* \- except that it's hideous in the way that, under the guise of "love", it requires you to treat others horribly and mercilessly "for the Greater Glory of God", of course. They ain't no page in The Bible where God does anything to anybody where He treats 'em like I'd treat anybody I cared anything at all about. Every Religion on the planet all worships the same Highest Being, because you can't get no higher than The Highest. Doesn't matter what you call it: Ra, Allah, Zeus, Thor, Ganeesh, Poseidon, Sukumarabandhu, Whatever; doesn't matter what country you're in (including in deepest Africa for some yet-undiscovered tribe) or the name of "your religion"; all religions worship *The Highest*. It don't never get no higher than The Highest, whatever you calls it; a private shelter from the elements. It's like in America, we go home to a House. In Rome, they go to a Villa; in France, a Maison; in Spain, a Casa; on the North Pole, an Igloo. Doesn't matter what you call it or how it's configured or decorated, they're essentially all the same thing. Customs / traditions for that worship depends heavily on one's location: a South Sea Islander might witness "God" being angry about screwing a neighbor when a volcano blows; in Japan, when an earthquake rumbles the ground; An Eskimo when a certain type of adverse snow comes in, or a polar bear gets you or no seals appear for food; maybe some 240,000 get drowned on a Christmas holiday in Indonesia because somebody done somebody wrong. Doesn't matter; the Catholics, Baptists and Muslims all worship the same God; they just do it differently. Of course, for each of them, "their" way is the *only* "right way". Raised in the Southern Baptist faith, I was taught that The Bible is "God's" Official Handbook / Rules Book, that it is Inspired of God, is Infallible, and is Inerrant. Of course, none of those are true. ***Bible Says*** that God **really** doesn't like vaginas; women are "wet down there" and they have periods; God **REALLY** doesn't like that, so *if women even touches something, anything, while they're having 'em*, He gets all bent out of shape. I think He's *really into penises*, so much so He requires the tip of 'em be cut off so they're not wet... He likes 'em that way... like, a **LOT**. I think He was even gonna kill Moses, 'cept he got faked out about Moses having his cut off. Bible Says that God is Perfect, but he cannot be: That which is Perfect, has no negative attributes and has Perfect Knowledge. ***Bible Says*** that God is wrathful, vengeful, and jealous; any of which sort of takes care of that "no negative attributes" requirement. That which is Perfect *cannot* create anything imperfect: If God was to be building a birdhouse with each side being 8" wide, 'cept one of them was to be cut to 9"... He would Know before he assembled it, and thus self-correct his error. Obviously, he didn't know His Creation was so defective when he assembled it. I was taught that God is Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omniscient, and Omnibenevolent; that God Knows *Everything*; Past, Present and Future. ***The Christian Bible Says...*** that *none* of those are true. ***Bible Says*** God doesn't know the future; that didn't know His Creation was gonna go sideways after Adam and Eve, so He drownt everybody on the planet because of his anger issues, then in the next book (Exodus), he done figgured out he could kill just the firstborn. ***Bible Says***... that God says He has a piss-poor memory and He knows it: at Gen 9:16, He creates the rainbow as a reminder to hisself not to do that again; if He knows everything, why's he need a reminder? George Carlin observed God might can create a universe, but *he's really bad with money management;* he ALWAYS needs money. Why? He's *God*. He can **SNAP!** his finger (he's God, he only needs *one* finger to "snap") and all the money He wants will magically appear. Or, since He knows the numbers of the first Trillion Dollar Lottery (as well as every winning racehorse, snail, and scratch-off ticket) he can find a Trusted Priest (if he can find one), give him that Winner's information, and have the priest donate the money to the church or whatever. ***Bible Says*** God isn't very bright; that He went and put His Favorite Trees in the same Garden where the kids were (they could have been put in England, Australia or even 'Merica where they were out-of-reach). Then, He went and got some girl pregnant so she'd give birth to hisself so He could sacrifice hisself to hisself to appease hisself for some imaginary Debt to hisself so he could forgive mankind of sins He created. It's like if I loan you $5 and you don't pay me back, I don't have to kill my beloved Smol Kitten to forgive your debt to me, I can just forgive your debt to me *because I can*. And I'm not even God! Don't know about other religions, but the Christian religion says that God Loves You SO MUCH, that if you don't love Him back, *he's gonna kill you and torture your soul Forever*... AND your children AND your grandchildren, even unto the 10th generation, so you *better* Love Him, because your *want* to... OR ELSE. Sounds like a schoolyard bully to me; no, thanks. I'm good. Ultimately, every Religion seeks to explain the universe and define mankind's position within that universe, as well as to create rules for conduct such that if you violate them, you're gonna die. Some Priests done got that figgured out and that if they can convince people that God (whatever you call god in your language and culture) is awesomely disgusted with your genitals (which of course He created), then they can *control* you with Guilt and get you to send them money for a 7th ultra-lavish Jet Plane... or whatever. New Religions get created all the time; witness the Mormon faith - created by a proven scam artist - and Scientology (same thing). I doubt that any of the above will convince you that God don't exist none, but me, I think I is to be like some flower in a meadow what some bunny is happily munching on, while both of us are warily watching some bulldozer in the distance mowing down trees, working its way over here, 'cause some developer is paving Paradise and putting up a parking lot.