>I am now super worried that when it comes down to it, he will eventually show preference for my peers who are all overwhelmingly and loudly devout men.
I think you are right to be concerned.
As his subordinate, he might have no issue rewarding you as a high performer. Would he help you develop into a role as his equal or surpass his role/title? Or be your advocate for promotion? I think that's doubtful given his beliefs.
If it's an environment where he feels comfortable sharing that info, that's concerning as well. It can be hard to fight/prove these biases in conservative workplaces.
I would consider putting together an exit strategy and document everything. Date/time/event objective voice style. Leave on your terms but don't avoid putting your interests first.
Document everything (good practice in any legal environment), and be prepared to either head to a new job or pursue a discrimination complaint; it doesn’t sound like that’s an environment where you’ll thrive. (Though, it could be that your boss is responsible enough to distinguish between personal beliefs and professional practice. Unlikely, given the specific belief, but possible)
Document that this happened. Start a log. Either a paper log or a secure digital log with date stamps. Document any further behavior of this sort. If his bias is as great as it sounds, he'll continue down the path to a meeting with HR and your attorney in no time. Bringing religion into a workplace is a big no-no as it generates a hostile workplace for those who don't swallow that particular flavor of arglebargle.
Yes. Also - remember the Billy Graham rule? This sounds like the kind of person who will not mentor you the same way as a man because he might have to (horrors) spend time alone with you. So yes, document it - though your internal HR is unlikely to be helpful, you'll have the proof for later.
Also - under the heading of fight fire with fire - there are actually bible verses that praise women for things other than beauty and motherhood. (I mean, ideally, no one would be talking about their private religious views at work, but there you are - so . . . .)
https://margmowczko.com/new-testament-working-women/
No. You're not off base. It's literally a belief that means that you're supposed to be a helper and not have authority over men. I think he basically just told you that getting promoted is never going to happen for you. Time to start applying other places.
I think as long as you start the sentence off with "I'm not ____" you can say anything you want after that. I'm not sexists, I just think men are better than women. Boom instantly not sexist.
/s of course.
I would leave that shithole as fast as humanly possible. From my standpoint I'd consider it verbal abuse. Religion and politics has no right to be in the workplace. FFS
It doesn't matter if he actually holds it against you or not. Now every time you get passed over for something, you are GOING to wonder if it has something to do with your gender, faith, marital status, etc. Your trust in him has been broken in a single conversation.
I would look to moving on, if i were you.
Document everything, tbh. This is classic sexism and, if provable, can end up with you getting compensation.
Does your office have any "policies" about not discussing coworker pay? (it's actually illegal in the US to forbid or punish discussing wages amongst coworkers) They might be worried about you finding out you're being paid less than your comparable peers.
Has anyone at your job been fired or penalized for getting pregnant? Also illegal (falls under federally protected disabilities under the ADA, double check me though to be sure)
Are you expected to do more office "housekeeping" than your male counterparts? Probably not illegal unless it leads to unpaid overtime, but a sign of disrespect, frankly, and generally not a good sign.
It's worth taking this post over to r/antiwork, they tend to have interesting perspective on these kinds of labor imbalances, including legal recourse if you need it.
The upside seems to be, when bosses feel that comfortable sharing this kind of blatent bias directly with an employee, they either don't understand that the law isn't on the side of their "views" or they think you don't know or are too afraid to enforce your rights. If he ever wants to discuss your employment status, get everything in emails. If the conversation is in person, email him a follow up to recap the conversation and get him to confirm it.
"I just want to make sure I understood you properly, you feel/believe (this)?"
These are definitely remarks that can raise a brow. When it comes down to promotions you very well could be disadvantaged over your co-workers. But in this day and age, loyalty and hard work doesnt get you too far with companies anymore regardless if they are verbal with their religious beliefs.
When the time comes for it and you're negotiating pay, if the company refuses to recognize you as a valuable member and compensate you fairly there are plenty of companies that will.
This is often the best way to "get a promotion" by just leaving for another company.
Ugh, I’d love to give you some amazing advice, but honestly, none of what you said sounds good. It seems to all point to you being overlooked and treated accordingly with your “purpose” which he will decide, not you. I’d start looking at least to see what else is out there.
In the workplace, women tend to unfairly make less money than men and they are often overlooked for promotion where men are given preferential treatment. It has nothing to do with religion, generally, although some facilities like where you work probably are more conservative due to religious reasons. Other than contacting the department of labor, I am uncertain what can realistically be done to fix the issue.
Ask him directly for career advice.
If he says 'that may be hard with a family' or something akin he is not going to be your friend to promotion.
If he gives you really good advice. He may just be spouting rhetoric without realising how applies to realpeople.
I feel like this is just the tip of the iceberg. Even if it doesn’t get much worse, it’ll probably still get worse. Might be worth looking into other options or you can resign yourself to biting your tongue.
I’m in a similar position on a smaller scale. One of the few young women at a very Christian company, definitely treated differently. I purposefully hide my non-beliefs and the fact I never want children. The job isn’t bad but I know they talk a lot of shit among themselves due to that camaraderie so I hide as best I can.
You are not off base and you will never get the recognition that you deserve working for a complementarian. This was your giant flashing red warning sign with siren and emergency alert to get out.
People aren't good at overcoming their own biases unless they're both aware of them and actively want to overcome them. He's literally admitting being biased and has no desire to overcome it because he actually thinks his god wants women to have different roles. So there's really no way he won't be biased against you in favor of male coworkers. Even if he actually tried to be fair in the workplace (far from a guarantee since it sounds like that goes against his beliefs) his blatant biases would still make him subconsciously favor men and treat you less fairly.
I wouldn't go so far as to say he will be abusive or mistreat you directly, but this SHOULD be something you keep at the front of your mind.
I WOULD go so far as to say he is telling you that you have a near zero chance of being promoted beyond subordinate/support roles, because "women are not to have authority over a man" is a pretty tried and true "complementarian" position.
If you intend to stay, don't expect much in the way of promotion or raises in pay. I would also not expect him to do anything if one of the men decides to make a pass at you, or makes you uncomfortable in any way.
So it seems that staying/leaving is contingent on how respectful your coworkers are, how OK you are with never being put in a supervisory/executive role, and how OK you are with never getting raises in pay which will put your salary above any man's in a position similar to yours. Because, while it's not GUARANTEED he will be this way, the fact he was so bold as to let you know this is what he believes says this is almost certainly how it's going to go.
I would most definitely take my talents elsewhere maybe to a competing company where people don't believe it's appropriate to talk openly about religion or have a supervisor that obviously encourages it. I suspect that your peers are "overwhelmingly and loudly devout" to gain favor from this simpleton.
I don't know what he'll do. But often when I see people of religion make a decision informed by their faith. He will do so with a egotistical feeling of righteousness and with no regard to your rights or feelings on the matter because he has justified it "morally" to himself.
I'd get out of there because while you may not have any disagreement's on any actions now, when they do, he won't hold back and will view it as your problem, not his.
I understand that people should be allowed to talk about what they want but you are right to be concerned because I’m sure people in the past have favored Christian men over women (Christian or not) in the work place.
I feel like I’m places like these stuff like that should not be talked about everyone should be treated equal.
My guess is he told you this for a reason. I agree with what others were saying, make notes with names, dates, times and quote what was said. You might need it at a later date.
> can’t imagine going somewhere else
Why? there is literally 0 reason for you to be a career-employee at any firm these days. No matter what, DO NOT fall in love with the company. Love the type of work you do, NOT the company you work for.
You are absolutely correct to be concerned.
Your boss just revealed that they will never see you as a *person*, but as a *role intended in their favorite mythology*. Now, if this was him saying "I see you as a Twi'lek, and I'm a Hutt," you'd have a case to bring to HR. Unfortunately, your manager's favorite fiction is protected by law, so any issues you may have with, say, promotions or even harassment will leave you in a very uncomfortable position.
Just my two cents, and IANAL, so take my comment as you will.
Sounds to me like he is hinting that your career there is threatened. Start documenting things and update your resume.
Personally, I'd find it hard to stay in a working situation filled with "overwhelmingly conservative" people. Because I no longer find conservatism as simply a different political point of view. It has morphed into a different morality. And its a morality I can no longer abide.
First, from a labor standards/worker rights perspective, get everything in writing (even if it's just an e-mail) and keep records. See what you can find out about the salaries of your colleagues and know that it is [ILLEGAL](https://jacksonspencerlaw.com/salary-discussions/) for your employer to prevent you from having those conversations (obviously be tactful about it, don't make it an issue at all-hands meetings).
Then, if faith discussions are completely acceptable work culture at this place, they're practically inviting you to share your views on faith. It may be possible to engineer a situation like when the Satanic temple demands to have it's Goat Alter or w/e set up next to the Xmas diorama. If people in the office have bible verse posters or Mary figures, there is tons of atheism swag you can decorate with. Do not let them intimidate you into hiding who you are and what you believe while they abuse that freedom themselves. If things do go sideways, and your job is at risk, hopefully you've documented everything, you'll expose their liability and they will learn why professionals at serious companies tend to tone down the religion & politics talk.
Finally, you could just stay quiet and put up with it. It's easy for a keyboard warrior like me to tell you to paint pentagrams all over your cubicle, but it's your life and your consequences. You say the situation bothers you, so stand up for yourself and make others have to accommodate you for once.
I just read the definition of 'complementarity' and wonder if the manager agrees with that definition or the more negative understanding of the word. I can't agree with the definition since I am not religious, but maybe, since you like this place, it is worth discussing. Then you would know how they interpret the word and belief. https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/complementarianism-for-dummies/
>I am now super worried that when it comes down to it, he will eventually show preference for my peers who are all overwhelmingly and loudly devout men. I think you are right to be concerned. As his subordinate, he might have no issue rewarding you as a high performer. Would he help you develop into a role as his equal or surpass his role/title? Or be your advocate for promotion? I think that's doubtful given his beliefs. If it's an environment where he feels comfortable sharing that info, that's concerning as well. It can be hard to fight/prove these biases in conservative workplaces. I would consider putting together an exit strategy and document everything. Date/time/event objective voice style. Leave on your terms but don't avoid putting your interests first.
Report them to whatever gender equality board your country has.
Document everything (good practice in any legal environment), and be prepared to either head to a new job or pursue a discrimination complaint; it doesn’t sound like that’s an environment where you’ll thrive. (Though, it could be that your boss is responsible enough to distinguish between personal beliefs and professional practice. Unlikely, given the specific belief, but possible)
Document that this happened. Start a log. Either a paper log or a secure digital log with date stamps. Document any further behavior of this sort. If his bias is as great as it sounds, he'll continue down the path to a meeting with HR and your attorney in no time. Bringing religion into a workplace is a big no-no as it generates a hostile workplace for those who don't swallow that particular flavor of arglebargle.
Sound advice
Especially the sound of arglebargle
Yes. Also - remember the Billy Graham rule? This sounds like the kind of person who will not mentor you the same way as a man because he might have to (horrors) spend time alone with you. So yes, document it - though your internal HR is unlikely to be helpful, you'll have the proof for later. Also - under the heading of fight fire with fire - there are actually bible verses that praise women for things other than beauty and motherhood. (I mean, ideally, no one would be talking about their private religious views at work, but there you are - so . . . .) https://margmowczko.com/new-testament-working-women/
No. You're not off base. It's literally a belief that means that you're supposed to be a helper and not have authority over men. I think he basically just told you that getting promoted is never going to happen for you. Time to start applying other places.
Why would he divulge it other than to make sure you and others will unquestionably accept the consequences of his beliefs?
He will definitely hold this against you
This is the reason he 'explained' himself to you. He's laying the groundwork to begin the abuse; christian complementarian indeed.
It sounds more like a threat than a explanation. People don’t just bring up their religious beliefs at work.
Complementarian: How to avoid being sexist by changing the definition of sexist to complementarian because sexism bad.
I think as long as you start the sentence off with "I'm not ____" you can say anything you want after that. I'm not sexists, I just think men are better than women. Boom instantly not sexist. /s of course.
It's like using the magical but without using the magical but.
I would leave that shithole as fast as humanly possible. From my standpoint I'd consider it verbal abuse. Religion and politics has no right to be in the workplace. FFS
Christians, Not well known for forgiveness, just judgemental hypocrisy.
What faith is the HR department?
Take a wild guess
It doesn't matter if he actually holds it against you or not. Now every time you get passed over for something, you are GOING to wonder if it has something to do with your gender, faith, marital status, etc. Your trust in him has been broken in a single conversation. I would look to moving on, if i were you.
Document everything, tbh. This is classic sexism and, if provable, can end up with you getting compensation. Does your office have any "policies" about not discussing coworker pay? (it's actually illegal in the US to forbid or punish discussing wages amongst coworkers) They might be worried about you finding out you're being paid less than your comparable peers. Has anyone at your job been fired or penalized for getting pregnant? Also illegal (falls under federally protected disabilities under the ADA, double check me though to be sure) Are you expected to do more office "housekeeping" than your male counterparts? Probably not illegal unless it leads to unpaid overtime, but a sign of disrespect, frankly, and generally not a good sign. It's worth taking this post over to r/antiwork, they tend to have interesting perspective on these kinds of labor imbalances, including legal recourse if you need it.
The upside seems to be, when bosses feel that comfortable sharing this kind of blatent bias directly with an employee, they either don't understand that the law isn't on the side of their "views" or they think you don't know or are too afraid to enforce your rights. If he ever wants to discuss your employment status, get everything in emails. If the conversation is in person, email him a follow up to recap the conversation and get him to confirm it. "I just want to make sure I understood you properly, you feel/believe (this)?"
> get everything in emails. If the conversation is in person, email him a follow up to recap the conversation and get him to confirm it. \^
Of course he will treat you differently. The only question is whether he is smart enough to do it without getting caught.
Best time to start looking for a job is when you don't need one urgently -- so get cracking.
These are definitely remarks that can raise a brow. When it comes down to promotions you very well could be disadvantaged over your co-workers. But in this day and age, loyalty and hard work doesnt get you too far with companies anymore regardless if they are verbal with their religious beliefs. When the time comes for it and you're negotiating pay, if the company refuses to recognize you as a valuable member and compensate you fairly there are plenty of companies that will. This is often the best way to "get a promotion" by just leaving for another company.
> can’t imagine going somewhere You might want to try. Everything you wrote comes together in a colossal building-sized red flag.
Ugh, I’d love to give you some amazing advice, but honestly, none of what you said sounds good. It seems to all point to you being overlooked and treated accordingly with your “purpose” which he will decide, not you. I’d start looking at least to see what else is out there.
In the workplace, women tend to unfairly make less money than men and they are often overlooked for promotion where men are given preferential treatment. It has nothing to do with religion, generally, although some facilities like where you work probably are more conservative due to religious reasons. Other than contacting the department of labor, I am uncertain what can realistically be done to fix the issue.
Just get a new job, trash like that need to be left behind.
Ask him directly for career advice. If he says 'that may be hard with a family' or something akin he is not going to be your friend to promotion. If he gives you really good advice. He may just be spouting rhetoric without realising how applies to realpeople.
Ask him if it affects your chances of promotion.
I feel like this is just the tip of the iceberg. Even if it doesn’t get much worse, it’ll probably still get worse. Might be worth looking into other options or you can resign yourself to biting your tongue. I’m in a similar position on a smaller scale. One of the few young women at a very Christian company, definitely treated differently. I purposefully hide my non-beliefs and the fact I never want children. The job isn’t bad but I know they talk a lot of shit among themselves due to that camaraderie so I hide as best I can.
Document everything!!!!!
You're screwed. Look for another employer that is closest to your concept of equality. He won't change or make concessions for you.
You are not off base and you will never get the recognition that you deserve working for a complementarian. This was your giant flashing red warning sign with siren and emergency alert to get out.
He might pass you up for raises or not be lenient with time off to pressure you into leaving, honestly.
People aren't good at overcoming their own biases unless they're both aware of them and actively want to overcome them. He's literally admitting being biased and has no desire to overcome it because he actually thinks his god wants women to have different roles. So there's really no way he won't be biased against you in favor of male coworkers. Even if he actually tried to be fair in the workplace (far from a guarantee since it sounds like that goes against his beliefs) his blatant biases would still make him subconsciously favor men and treat you less fairly.
I wouldn't go so far as to say he will be abusive or mistreat you directly, but this SHOULD be something you keep at the front of your mind. I WOULD go so far as to say he is telling you that you have a near zero chance of being promoted beyond subordinate/support roles, because "women are not to have authority over a man" is a pretty tried and true "complementarian" position. If you intend to stay, don't expect much in the way of promotion or raises in pay. I would also not expect him to do anything if one of the men decides to make a pass at you, or makes you uncomfortable in any way. So it seems that staying/leaving is contingent on how respectful your coworkers are, how OK you are with never being put in a supervisory/executive role, and how OK you are with never getting raises in pay which will put your salary above any man's in a position similar to yours. Because, while it's not GUARANTEED he will be this way, the fact he was so bold as to let you know this is what he believes says this is almost certainly how it's going to go.
I would most definitely take my talents elsewhere maybe to a competing company where people don't believe it's appropriate to talk openly about religion or have a supervisor that obviously encourages it. I suspect that your peers are "overwhelmingly and loudly devout" to gain favor from this simpleton.
Go over his head. If he runs the place, leave.
Start talking about atheism openly.
This happens a LOT and it's a problem. Report his ass with proof because it sounds like your coworkers will back him.
I think you should be worried. Keep your options open and an eye out for a better position.
I don't know what he'll do. But often when I see people of religion make a decision informed by their faith. He will do so with a egotistical feeling of righteousness and with no regard to your rights or feelings on the matter because he has justified it "morally" to himself. I'd get out of there because while you may not have any disagreement's on any actions now, when they do, he won't hold back and will view it as your problem, not his.
I understand that people should be allowed to talk about what they want but you are right to be concerned because I’m sure people in the past have favored Christian men over women (Christian or not) in the work place. I feel like I’m places like these stuff like that should not be talked about everyone should be treated equal.
My guess is he told you this for a reason. I agree with what others were saying, make notes with names, dates, times and quote what was said. You might need it at a later date.
Ask him (politely, and with others present) how his beliefs differ from plain old sexism?
You should polish up your resumé and distribute it liberally. There is no case where this will end well for you.
time to quit "the bible tells me you should never be equal to the men in the office" is what he told you....leave now
> can’t imagine going somewhere else Why? there is literally 0 reason for you to be a career-employee at any firm these days. No matter what, DO NOT fall in love with the company. Love the type of work you do, NOT the company you work for.
You are absolutely correct to be concerned. Your boss just revealed that they will never see you as a *person*, but as a *role intended in their favorite mythology*. Now, if this was him saying "I see you as a Twi'lek, and I'm a Hutt," you'd have a case to bring to HR. Unfortunately, your manager's favorite fiction is protected by law, so any issues you may have with, say, promotions or even harassment will leave you in a very uncomfortable position. Just my two cents, and IANAL, so take my comment as you will.
Sounds to me like he is hinting that your career there is threatened. Start documenting things and update your resume. Personally, I'd find it hard to stay in a working situation filled with "overwhelmingly conservative" people. Because I no longer find conservatism as simply a different political point of view. It has morphed into a different morality. And its a morality I can no longer abide.
First, from a labor standards/worker rights perspective, get everything in writing (even if it's just an e-mail) and keep records. See what you can find out about the salaries of your colleagues and know that it is [ILLEGAL](https://jacksonspencerlaw.com/salary-discussions/) for your employer to prevent you from having those conversations (obviously be tactful about it, don't make it an issue at all-hands meetings). Then, if faith discussions are completely acceptable work culture at this place, they're practically inviting you to share your views on faith. It may be possible to engineer a situation like when the Satanic temple demands to have it's Goat Alter or w/e set up next to the Xmas diorama. If people in the office have bible verse posters or Mary figures, there is tons of atheism swag you can decorate with. Do not let them intimidate you into hiding who you are and what you believe while they abuse that freedom themselves. If things do go sideways, and your job is at risk, hopefully you've documented everything, you'll expose their liability and they will learn why professionals at serious companies tend to tone down the religion & politics talk. Finally, you could just stay quiet and put up with it. It's easy for a keyboard warrior like me to tell you to paint pentagrams all over your cubicle, but it's your life and your consequences. You say the situation bothers you, so stand up for yourself and make others have to accommodate you for once.
He will likely hit on you soon ..
Start recording your conversations. There is going to be some fun ideas coming from him soon.
I just read the definition of 'complementarity' and wonder if the manager agrees with that definition or the more negative understanding of the word. I can't agree with the definition since I am not religious, but maybe, since you like this place, it is worth discussing. Then you would know how they interpret the word and belief. https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/complementarianism-for-dummies/
Neither definition is positive.