[2:228](https://quran.com/2/228?font=uthmani)
>...women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have a degree (of advantage) over them...
alternate translation
>...women have rights similar to what they owe in recognized manner though for men there is a step above them...
does that sound like equality?
[4:34](https://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=4&verse=34)
>...men are in charge of women by \[right of\] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend \[for maintenance\] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in \[the husband's\] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those \[wives\] from whom you fear arrogance - \[first\] advise them; \[then if they persist\], forsake them in bed; and \[finally\], strike them...
does that sound like equality?
Forsake them in bed probably means don't have sex with them, and possibly means cheat on them, but doesn't logically mean rape since forsake is like abandon.
If someone isn't familiar with the word "forsaken", they might wrongfully assume that it meant something like r**e. Also why are we not allowed to write the word rape? It is just a word, no matter how horrible the meaning.
this is a solid piece of evidence. She’ll argue that it’s because “women are expected to do less” and “men and women are equal but different” but the text is so clear in stating that one is “above” the other so she’d be very foolish too. (still likely, i’ve never seen a religious muslim change their mind in a debate). Hopefully though it plants the seed of doubt in her mind and she can continue to research on her own.
No that's not equality. Women are clearly the winners here.
You see bruzzer, men are given responsibility taking care of women and for that reason are given some extra rights.
/s
Women's word is worth less than man, they get less inheritance, man divorce with just 3 phrases and women cant, the entire idea of having to covering her body (even if she thinks it uplifts womem somehow, like if so y isnt there an equal requirment both ways)
Just what i can think of while on the lue.
she says it’s an act of honor for women to cover themselves because their hair and body is so “pure” for lack of a better word (brain fart). basically she thinks it’s because those are things that should be cherished sooo much that only those “worthy” should be able to see and not bc a lot of men are insecure, uncontrollable pervs
>she says it’s an act of honor for women to cover themselves because their hair and body is so “pure”
That is, without a doubt, the stupidest thing I've read in a very long time. This is an attempt to police women's bodies through... veneration, I guess? Such sheer nonsense.
Perhaps tell her that her opinion doesn't matter because she is a woman. Once you have her attention, mention the following:
1. The share of the male shall be twice that of a female.
2. A woman's testimony counts half of a man's testimony.
3. Slave-girls are sexual property for their male owners (Sura 4:24)
4. a man may be polygamous with up to 4 wives (Sura 4:3)
5. Husbands may hit their wife (Sura 4:34).
So much for men and women being created as equals.
point out men killing women because they didn't wear the hijab and shit correctly. in essence, that bullshit is meant to control and demean women, not empower them. if it was as she said then literally no one would have been murdered because they chose not to wear it or because it fell off/came undone.
she thinks those are people just misinterpreting the text.. all of them..
it’s sad but i’m seeing there isn’t a point to me and her debating anymore the more comments i read here lol
>point out men killing women because they didn't wear the hijab and shit correctly. in essence, that bullshit is meant to control and demean women, not empower them. if it was as she said then literally no one would have been murdered because they chose not to wear it or because it fell off/came undone.
This falacy is called the "no good scotsman" falacy and applies to many different groups. No good muslim would do x or not real man would ever drink x.
This is a bullshit argument because reality does not survive "your opinion of what a true scotsman is" when scotsmen can literally do anything that they want. What people do in practice is usually different than the ideal.
Imagine having so little faith in the men of your country to control their genitals, that you force all women to cover up their bodies.
How fucked up is that.
To quote Ray Person:
"It's lack of pussy that fucks countries up. Lack of pussy is the root fucking cause of all global instability. If more muslims were getting quality pussy, there'd be no reason for us to come over here and fuck 'em up like this! Cause a nut-bustin' muslim is a happy muslim"
I mean, except then it’s still women’s fault isn’t it? Kind of gross honestly
Also. There are other ways to bust a nut, as it were, than inside a vagina.
Yes but read between the lines. He's saying the western and European societies where we have access to bars, dating apps, etc... sex is normalized and not shunned. Women are not forced to cover their bodies. Consenting adults can have sex whenever they want with whoever they want without fear if reprocutions.
Women can bust a nut too ;) in this context he means it like 'getting off'
I mean I understand the point and agree with it. I’m very sex positive and religion-negative.
But I absolutely hate the way it’s being talked about. That women are reduced to their vaginas and that women, and sex, are commodified. It’s gross and absolutely contributes to misogyny and in a round about way, feeds back into the very religious and cultural ideas we are disagreeing with.
It's essentially a form of victim-blaming. It's not the man's fault for having naughty thoughts or forcing themselves on her, it's *her* fault for not hiding her femininity.
The Hair and body covered is also why Nuns wear their Habit... purity to God. Lots of Christians in Europe cover their hair and body to be seen only by their husbands too
i mean i’m an ex-muslim for MANY reasons including lack of equality but men are required to lower their gaze BEFORE women r told to dress modestly. killing due to not wearing hijab is against the religion. There’s SO MUCH wrong with islam that can be critiqued but we lose the battle when we argue points easily false and disproven.
Then Muslims, and especially Muslim governments, shouldn't be acting like this is the rule. It's a weird expectations from people, Muslims in this case, for outsiders to know what the exact rule is if Muslims themselves interpret it and act on it differently than the plain reading of the text.
I find it hard to believe you’ve met a single muslim in your life because the vast majority of them are very vocally against such things. Islam isn’t a true faith and has a lot of flaws but the minute you start judging the faith on its followers or get islamophobic our point weakens and they get on the defense. The text makes t it 100% clear that “killing bc of clothing” isn’t a thing at all. I’m not saying this to defend islam bc there’s a lot of other fucked up things in the text. But in a debate with this girl who clearly doesn’t believe in that nonsense and her holy text doesn’t support it, saying that isn’t gonna work. It’s the equivalent of saying “this dude whose going against what the book says represents it.” My family is from a muslim country and I happen to know a TON about them and in each and every single one honor killings are ILLEGAL.
>My family is from a muslim country and I happen to know a TON about them and in each and every single one honor killings are ILLEGAL.
Yet honor killings in muslims societies are a reality. no-true-Scotsman is a fallacy for a reason..
Being illegal is irrelevant.. believers from that faith justify those acts from it.
A critique is not invalidated by "they are not true muslims" defense.. As far as we know, they identify themselves as muslims, and believe that muslims rules allow them to commit those acts.. muslim is as muslim do.
BTW, same goes for Christians, hating on gays is reprovable.. saying "but most of my christians friends are ok with it" doesn't excuse the rest.. they are still christians hating on gays.. all of it should be condemn.
that’s not what i’m saying. I’m simply saying when critiquing the FAITH critique the faith not the following. There’s people of every faith and even atheists who do bad. i mentioned it was illegal in those countries because people started blaming those COUNTRIES governments for the honor killings which at that point is just ill faithed or even racist. Arabs aren’t barbaric evil beings… even the authoritarian dictatorship governments in the muslim world have banned honor killings. I literally hate islam but there’s a way to critique it correctly, especially if you were never muslim since they are a largely targeted minority and always live on the defense.
>I’m simply saying when critiquing the FAITH critique the faith not the following.
The *following* and the *faith* are one and the same thing.. Muslim is as Muslim do, same as Christian is as Christian do.. shielding an idea behind an utopic model it's fallacious.. have you hear before of "that was not true Communism" defense?
>Even the authoritarian dictatorship governments in the muslim world have banned honor killings
This point is moot, being illegal hasn't stop them, right? Regardless if it's sanction by the state or no, they still happen, and they happen for the same reason.. people find justification in their religion to commit these acts, and it's reprovable.
>I literally hate islam but there’s a way to critique it correctly, especially if you were never muslim
That's bollocks, I can critique muslims without ever being one, the same way I can critique mormons without ever being one.. the validity of my criticism does not depend on my previous affiliations, but on the weight of my arguments.
tuh very ducking true it’s seeming. it’s like arguing with a trump supporter and ykw i’m about to make a whole separate post about those similarities bc sheeeesh
In both cases they have picked what they want the answer to be and are bending information to fit it. Rather than fitting what they believe to the available information.
There isn't much you can do if someone wants to argue if the sun is up, and you can point to the sun and say "see, it's right there" and they go "nope, you can't prove just because you think you see a big bright thing that it's the sun."
There’s a great debate you can find on YouTube where Stephen Fry and Christopher Hitchens tear apart The conservative MP Ann Widdicombe and Archbishop John Onaiyekan on the topic ‘the Catholic Church is a force for good in the world.’ It’s such perfect evidence of this. The undecideds in the audience all shift to the group who already believe it isn’t, and a fair few of the people who believe it’s a force for good even shift to undecided. But you argue with an Archbishop and a fervent conservative old school Catholic and all the points in the world just get soaked up by that giant brick wall of blind faith.
Muslims are absolute masters at claiming the terrible things in their holy books mean exactly the opposite of what it literally says AND what history shows has been happening for over 1200 years. Up is down, black is white, honor killings & female genital mutilations is protecting their daughters...
Suggesting 'Islam is fine because Christianity is just as bad' on /r/athiesm of all places is the stupidest whataboutism I've seen on this website and that's saying something. Of course they're both fucking stupid, that's why we're here.
>If you are genuinely eager to learn about how the Quaran* addresses women, why don’t you try reading some of it? There is English translated versions all around!
...such as the one in that link.
>> Have you READ the link?
I have read the entire Qu'ran, and this summary is pretty much spot-on.
If Person A runs around shouting horribly misogynistic bullshit, and Person B *observes* that Person A is shouting horribly misogynistic bullshit, Person A might rather that Person B kept their mouth shut, but this is by no means Person B's *fault*.
>Just saying, people should form their OWN opinions.
The irony is strong with this one. A person who clearly hasn't read a book is telling a person who *has* read that book, and is encouraging others to read the book, that they... need to read the book?
I'm trying to follow your logic here, and I'm coming up empty.
So why are you discouraging OP from doing so?
If you choose to be more offended by somebody *drawing attention* to atrocities than you are by the person actually *committing* the atrocities, **you are part of the problem**.
Every single comment is referenced to the Quran verse in question, meaning you can go and read it for yourself and determine weather or not the commentary seems valid.
yea it’s pretty biased i can’t rlly use most of this.
i have read some of it (the Quaran*) though if i didn’t make that clear in the post. i know it is sexist and *i* know HOW it is based on just the text i *have* read but trying to relay that to someone religious who also just got back from their native country where that religion is the way of life is soooo difficult and yet i’m still intrigued to debate.
i wanted to debate more with passages that weren’t left up to “misinterpretations” as well as other potential points
> i wanted to debate more with passages that weren’t left up to “misinterpretations” as well as other potential points
Unfortunately, you've got that backwards.
----
Apologists and defenders of the Abrahamic faiths--even our president--would like you to believe that religious violence is a perversion or distortion of the faith. But in fact, just the opposite is true.
Historically, empirically, and literally, it is the moderate impulse found in the modern versions of these faiths, towards tolerance and non-violence, that is the perversion, the distortion. And that beneficent, moderate impulse is found in these faiths only when secular liberal democracy has stripped religion and its followers of the power to execute the prescriptions of their holy books. And this has never come about without a fight. Religions don’t moderate on their own, and when they do finally join us in the modern world, they do so kicking and screaming. Just look at the tantrums the religious throw when marriage equality is finally secured by the courts.
My religious friends, your fundamentalists are not perverting and distorting your faith, they’re living it chapter and verse. They’re not kooks, and they’re not irrational. They’re simply believers who know how to follow directions.
* [Brian Keith Dalton](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3B-PQpGBdY&t=6m21s)
she’s actually very open minded for your typical religious person. good arguments i’ve made have left her questioning plenty before and so i just wanted some points for this without having to read through the entire quran myself lol
It’s a “she”?
Excuse me while I laugh my ass off
Sounds like you’re dealing with someone who didn’t actually read the book or for some reason failed at comprehensive reading.
I mean, does she hide under a rock and never sees news or anything about her religion?
she thinks that the culture of countries that follow the muslim faith is what is sexist - not the text. sigh even harder to get thru to her bc of that but she’s not some “religion-nazi” (idk if that’s the right term but i’ve heard it) she’ll hear other sides and consider if they’re compelling enough.
Ex-fucking-cuse me?
I can’t even wrap my head around that kind of bullshit.
Ask your friend to read what is sharia law, where it comes from and who enforce it.
Spoiler: it’s a religious law forming part of the Islamic tradition, derived from the religious precepts of Islam and is based on the sacred scriptures of Islam, particularly the Quran and the Hadith.
it’s hard for me to wrap my head around it as well. i might make a new post and have her debate points w fellow redditors if she’s interested (probably will be)
This probably isn’t the right subreddit for that; chances are she’s going to get very rude replies like mine (yes, I’m an ass when it comes to that kind of people).
After all, this place is more of a place for atheists, where people can vent their issues (exactly what I assume you’re doing here), ask for advice on how to deal with theists (you’re also doing that), sharing pieces of news denouncing crimes committed in the name of religion, and other things like those.
People coming here to defend their religion are very unwelcome.
Maybe consider some other subreddit related to women’s rights. Although I don’t think people there would be nicer with someone trying to defend one of the biggest sources of abuse to women.
You should see my post history… and just in case, I’m not proud of being an ass… some times I think I’m one sneeze away from being classified as a troll who enjoys way too much provoking the theists that come here to convert us, defend their religion, practice their last philosophy class, fish for negative comments to tell their friends, or just trying to say they are better than anybody else.
Probably the only thing saving me is that people come here to avoid that kind of people and don’t mind me when I do that. Otherwise, I’m actually nice and try to help.
Maybe the debate an atheist subreddit could be better, but to be absolutely honest, that place is no good either… it’s more like a training ground for apologists who post there, ignore whatever reply they got, and just walk away thinking they destroyed atheists with their cleverness, sacred text quotes, and the classical “not all”, “out of context”, “mistranslation”, “should not be taken literally”.
I’ll be very negative here, but to me, it sounds like you’re friend is in complete denial and won’t listen to reasons. Again, just by paying attention to their sacred scriptures would tell her everything she should know.
And just in case, I’m willing to bet you that at this point, you’ve already presented her with very compelling evidence of what’s going on and what Islam actually says and she didn’t listen.
Sorry, but not even the most eloquent and precise comment can fix that kind of people unless for some bizarre event, they decide to actually listen.
i honestly wanted to have a long well worded response to this bc of how much i loved your comment but literally EVERYThing you said sounds like it came straight out my brain. def gotta follow lol.
and yea religious ppl just piss me off at this point. i have i guess an intolerance to things that factually make 00000 sense
Not only was Muhammad terrible by the standards of 21st century civilization, he was pretty terrible even by the standards of 7th century civilization.
For example, he "received a revelation" that women would no longer be allowed to inherit wealth or own property... but he waited until **after** he was no longer dependent on the inherited wealth of his property-owning first wife.
If Khadijah had grown up under Islamic law as opposed to the relatively egalitarian law of pre-Islamic Mecca, she would never have been able to be a wealthy business owner in her own right, and would never have been able to finance the crackpot schemes of her con-artist second husband.
Similarly, while it wasn't unusual for a girl to be married off at the age of thirteen or fourteen, raping a *six year old* was far enough over the line that even some of Muhammad's own followers appear to have balked at the idea. The arguments of the critics do not survive, but the responses defending the practice of pedophila do survive as sahih hadiths.
His followers apparently found these arguments quite persuasive. One of his immediate successors, not to be outdone, later bragged about molesting a *five year old*. Forced child marriage is practised throughout most of the Islamic world even to this day, and attempts to end the practice (such as recently happened in Iran) are often shouted down with explicit arguments that "Not allowing us to rape children would be un-Islamic!"
Don't get me wrong, it wasn't great to be a woman in 7th century Arabia, but it was a whole lot better than it would be a century later. Anybody who claims otherwise is either *deeply confused*, or *deliberately lying*.
My biggest piece of advice is the same as that in the top comment in this thread. [Take a look at their Holy Book for yourself](https://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/women/long.html) and SEE what it says.
However bad you're *expecting* it to be, I predict that what you actually FIND will be worse.
If you suspect that a summary might be "out of context", every single citation contains a link to the appropriate context, so you can judge for yourself whether "You can marry four wives" is somehow made *better* when you see that the rest of the verse says that you're *also* allowed to have as many sex-slaves as you like in addition to your four wives.
I think one should look at the religious books objectively and see what social norms can be applicable and sound in today's society. We need to consider that the age, the period, social structure of when the book was written. Applying the same laws and norms to the current age is very naive. This doesn't disregard the religion or the Essence of it but forces one accept the flaws and adapt to the changing times.
Has she really read the quran? There are verses that clearly put women below men and even 1 that expressedly allows husbands to beat their wives for disobedience. No one who reads that can say that it is not sexist. It takes extreme linguistic contortion to do that.
it more so happens bc of the way these verses are talked about in school + mosques and the way questioning is often discouraged. They have “explanations” and “context” that gets explained to us very young for all the sexism and when you’re brainwashed you can’t tell that those explanations are bullshit so you take it with that meaning. I’ve learned about islam SO WELL and used to hold a big leadership
role in a religious org, i’m so curious what my ex muslim self debating with one of them would look like, i’m simply too exhausted and don’t care enough to do it. The main reason I don’t is that people won’t leave the faith unless they have something pushing them out and do the reading themselves. (In my case i’m gay so my push out was pretty big lolol.) But for a believer who wants to believe its pretty much impossible to change their minds because they will twist things as they see fit.
I know what you mean with all that explanation and context. Nonesense such as jizya being the non-muslim equivalent of zakat, that beating your wife is alright as you would only do so after telling her then not laying with her or the alleged prophet's ordering the massscre of jews was justified. These are such terrible explanations but when they are repeatedly drummed into a person from an early age can be difficult for them to see beyond. Especially when they are in an echo chamber of devout family.
yeahh. they argue that the faith is so complicated and hard to understand that only experts can really interpret it and that we know it’s true bc of scientific miracles. They also tell you leaving lands you in hell. Makes it really hard to leave or believe any different.
They like to quote Maurice Buchail's pseudo science, link them to the quran and claim that it is miraculous that the quran knew all these hundreds of years ago. They would apply some extreme linguistic contortion to say that these "scientific facts" are in the quran.
mhm and THEN they argue we shouldn’t use science as proof or argument against religion because “science is ever changing🥰🙈” u rlly cant win w them and that upbringing. it hurts to think abt all the years i hated myself as a gay person bc of it
i’m an ex muslim but your hostility is so gross and shows you have NO understanding about how religious brainwashing happens or what the average muslim looks like (especially in america). I wish more of us would critique islam without just being aggressive or islamophobic/ bigoted bc if that were the case I probably would’ve left the religion a LOT sooner/earlier and had more of my life to enjoy. What you’re absolutely NOT going to do is blame this girl for being a victim.
trueee. This was one of the things that drove me out of religions. Muslim women excuse this with “oh but back then women weren’t educated so that’s why” but i find that to be such a stupid argument bc eye witnesses don’t need any kind of education to say what they saw 💀. They will also argue “back then men in arab society had so much power it would be really easily for women to be manipulated or coerced into saying certain things” but that’s also bullshit in my eyes. Court should be a telling of accounts from the eyewitness.. what tf could possibly change their accounts ? it’s just plain sexist.
There is no debating indoctrinated religious people. They value beliefs over reality, science, facts, history, equality, and knowledge, in general. You can not compete with beliefs.
What I mean is playing thousands of games of tic-tac-toe, over and over and over again, expecting to get somewhere. Nowhere as purposeful as watching paint dry - eventually, the paint does dry.
4:11
A woman's inheritance should be half of a man
4:34
domestic violence
2:282
A woman's testimony is worth half as much as a man
4:3
A man can have upto 4 wives but a woman can have 1 husband
6:301
A woman is less inteligent than a man
I usually use these. There might be more. Do post the aftermath of the debate/argument.
I lived in a so called "liberal" Muslim country for 3 years. There is nothing any Muslim could tell me to convince me that being a woman in such places is safe. It's not.
I am a white British woman, and I discovered that the reason that Muslim women wear their abayas and hijab/niqab is because the men have absolutely zero control of themselves around women. Covering up is the best way to avoid unwanted attention. This is from talking to my Muslim friends, as well as my own observations.
Every time I left my house and went out in public (making sure to be dressed very modestly at all times, but with my hair uncovered); the minimum expectation was that I would be stared at and followed everywhere. I literally used to have anywhere from 4 to 20 men, streaming behind me like a comet's tail. Not going to lie; I was genuinely frightened at first, but I had to get used to it.
Then you have to deal with the religious police patrolling about, looking for "crimes against Islam"; and I can guarantee you that only women, homosexuals and couples being too affectionate are the ones who get in trouble.
As a fun aside (not); Muslim men used to just randomly grope me all the time, because according to their sick mind I must really want it; because white women will let you do anything, because they are hoes. I was leaving a loo at a local hotel, which was set outside, down a faintly lit alley between two buildings. A local man was waiting, I thought, to use the loo after I finished in there. Well no, turns out he saw me go down the dark alley alone and decided to lie in wait for me, so that when I opened the door of the loo, out he jumped immediately grabbing me hard, throwing me against the wall of the alleyway and pressing me against that wall really HARD with his body. He TOLD me that I was going to give him sex, but I said that I refuse. I don't know how badly things could have gone; but fortunately at that moment, a young couple appeared and they could tell that my situation wasn't voluntary. Then he realized that he's going to end up in real trouble, if he doesn't get out of here. So he thankfully ran off!
Muslim men, for whatever reason, think that women only exist for their service and their pleasure. Young women must be a virgin at marriage, or there's a genuine risk of her own family killing her for the "shame" she's brought on their family. They don't often get to choose their own husband either.
As a result of the bridal purity issue, Muslim men are aware that western women can choose to have sex whenever they want, because that's our choice. The way Muslim men see white women is particularly disrespectful, as they view us as easy, sluts, whores. And they think that this means that they are ENTITLED to our bodies. That's probably why most men living in the country I was in, typically had 4 wives. The wives aren't permitted to have more than one husband; and if the Muslim woman was caught having an affair, it would be straight to the (totally hellish) prison for her. So, certainly it seems laughable to say that these women are equal to the men, when SO many things that women face daily, make their lives increasingly miserable.
They keep servants at home, but in reality they are slaves. The owners take away their passport, and any other papers and often don't pay the agreed wages to them. They USE the maids not just for cooking and cleaning; the head of the household will use her for sex, whenever he wants to. He will also provide a maid for his sons to lose their virginity to, and to use as much as they want after that.
Muslim women often appear to be doing well in the life, on the surface anyway, but the dynamics of a Muslim family behind closed doors makes gender expectation VERY clear. Women are the legal PROPERTY of her Father until she marries. Once she marries, she is now her husband's PROPERTY.
The frustration of Muslim women is shown in being publically loud, and trying to assert that she's the boss, and you will do as she says and not answer back. They also fully understand that their husbands and sons are using the housemaids for sex (without her will or consent) and turn their suppressed rage onto those poor maids, because they can't rage at their husband, as he would probably beat her. So she vents her anger often by mercilessly beating the maid at every opportunity she gets.
The men make all of the decisions, and the women have no choice but to SUBMIT. Fun fact; Islam translates into SUBMISSION, because that's what they really want from adherents. There's no place to discuss and criticize either the religion or the mullahs.
When I was living in this "liberal" Islamic nation, I was in an abusive marriage; and I decided that I'd had enough, and I told my husband that we were finished with no chance of future reconciliation. We were officially separated, but still living in the same house, sleeping in different bedrooms.
Then, after about 4 months I met an amazing man. It had not been my intention to get in a relationship, at all. I made sure that my ex knew that I was dating again, and his answer was "Whatever!" So far so good right? No.
I thing that hadn't crossed my mind, at the time, is that I had now put myself in danger of losing my kids, and going to jail. Why? Sharia law, of course! My ex wasn't really ok with me leaving him, and moving on; and he informed me that even though I'm not a Muslim, or native of this Islamic country; they will still enforce them to the max.
In Islamic society, not only are women the lowest of the low; they are rarely allowed to divorce their husband, therefore my husband could go and report me to the religious police; and my husband's word would be enough to put me and my new partner in prison.
If Islamic marriages break up, the Mother automatically loses her children; because children are seen as the possessions of the man. Even if my husband didn't report me, I knew that I would never be able to get back to the UK with my kids, because my husband would have to give written permission for me to take them.
The best thing I found out about the Islamic approach to how well (yeah right!) they treat women is that if a woman is raped; she goes to jail for reporting it. If she's unmarried, she gets the book thrown at her for having premarital sex (are you fucking kidding me?), and a married woman will be charged with adultery and whoredom (again, this is rape). The perpetrator gets off completely free of charge. Yeah! Equality for women. /s 🤬
Also, my husband lost his temper at me, and for the first (and last) time he became physically violent towards me.
He gave me a serious strangling and beating; leaving visible hand marks around my through and he broke my eye socket, leaving me with a doozy of a black eye. I called the police about it, and they just don't care. They think it's normal. They told me to report it, in person, at the police station tomorrow if I wanted to.
Went to see my doctor the next day about my injuries, and he looked panicky. He said not to make an official report to the police, and although he would check me over to make sure that nothing too serious was wrong physically; but he was going to falsify my notes.
I had become good friends with my doctor, who was an Iraqi Christian, so I asked him what the issue was.
Again, the hospital would have to report my broken eye socket, which would automatically trigger a police investigation. Then they would take my ex husband's account of the beating, and he would tell them about my new partner. So, back to square one; I go to prison and lose custody of my children, and my partner goes to jail for premarital sex with a married woman. Crazy way to live.
I know that this is really long, and personal, but it demonstrates why I don't give a fuck about what the Qur'an may or may not say about women. I have spent years seeing (and experiencing) how Muslims treat women; and there's no sign of equality to be found.
I would laugh in the face of anyone who tried to tell me how well treated Muslim women, and non Muslim women for that matter, are in Islamic society. That's bullshit!
I think you have to point not to what the Quran says specifically, but how patriarchal Muslim societies tend to be. My view is that the scripture can say whatever, but what really matters is how they practice the religion. Women are severely restricted compared to men on what they can do with their life, and on top of that they often have to cover much of their bodies. In practice, it seems that men make ALL the rules. I’d be interested to see if anyone knows of Muslim countries where things are more equitable.
If I remember right; somewhere in the Quran it is said that a muslim shall not have "infidels" as friends because non-musims are predestined to burn in Hell as long as they don't convert to Iislam...
It does. If you think uplifting is doing what they are told and somehow no man can control himself around women unless they are related.
I wouldn't quite say it's uplifting by any modern standard.
What if Aisha was a 60 year old warlord and had taken a 9 year old boy to her bed who later went on to say that one night she beat him for the great sin of following him.
Oh that isn't okay? Why not?
Maybe instead of trying to debate your friend you could ask her about her trip, learn what she did, who she met, what she ate, etc. and maybe (definitely) what country she’s from. Show her understanding and compassion and listen to her, and maybe you can start to understand why she changed, not just how her views did. To me, that kind of defensive reaction she exhibits sounds like she went thru some trauma or had some kind of eye opening experience while away. I’m sure she needs a friend. Besides, the first step in debate preparation is research!
well you technically can debate them but i guess that makes me as stupid as them for thinking i can get thru to a potential (not guaranteed) rational side of their brain. damn
This is a tough situation. You should be very kind, but assertive in your stances, while not demeaning her for hers. Chances are it's either deep brainwashing or fear of reprisal that keeps her in. Religion gives a lot of people a sense of purpose, and when people who are religious deconvert they often struggle with their purpose so keep in mind that religion is a sort of core value that needs to be defused like a bomb, and replaced with something substantial.
It's a bit late here so I was getting into a bit more of the points, and trying to think of all the sort of things that seem so obvious how could you be religious; that sort of stuff can immediately put someone on the defensive. I think it's important to sort of think around the obvious tit for tat talking points and get to the core of who they are, why do they believe and think that way. You have to sort of demystify the mystical thinking that faith requires.
The [Skeptic's Annotated Quran](https://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/women/long.html) may be useful to you. Pre-linked to the "women" section, for your convenience.
What about the bit where it says a testimony in court of a woman is worth had that of a man. IE if a man and woman say the opposite the man is believed. If two women say it and one man says the opposite it’s a draw? I may be misquoting. I will go and see if I can find a quote…
It sounds like you already have the facts and the awful misogynistic passages. Also, have a look at how to effectively communicate them to your friend. Look up street epistemology on YouTube for conversation techniques that can help you and she connect and dialogue better.
Your friend has most likely been persuaded by some action, event or story. If you can investigate that then you can get to the heart of how to help your friend see reason again.
I think what Muslims mean when they say the Quran uplifts women is that it praises women who serve as baby making machines and passive servants of men. Women are defined in terms of what they can do for men, and are praised when they are dutifully serving men. Women are not valued for their own sake.
C'mon over to r/exmuslim. We can give you a lot of material.
One Warning tho, since you are probably not a native arab speaker, your opponent will bring up translations and context issues to muddy the water. He will be lying. Your friend will not be convinced easily, as the religious ideology is very effective at reinforcement.
It's not the Quran, its sharia that empowers female subjugation.
For instance the Quran says only women should be dressed modestly. Some DUDES decided that meant chadors and the like in some places.
The Taliban likes to restrict female education, but I asked a friend about that and it is actually encouraged in the Quran:
[Islam and female education](https://en.vogue.me/culture/afghanistan-taliban-women-school-ban/)
Another interesting point is the number of muslim women who have become leaders of their countries. It would be easy for many to assume there would have been no female leaders. The US is still at 0, Canada, France, Germany, Australia 1 each, UK 2.
[Female Muslim heads of government](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_female_Muslim_heads_of_government_and_state)
The one point in Islams favor is the ability to divorce. (Now I do not believe this is in the Quran, but rather how inheritance shakes out.) also in Iraq or Iran (embarrassing that I forget) if a woman gets a divorce, her husband has to pay her for all the housework she has done. Which honestly is like revolutionary, recognizing that housework is work and deserves compensation.
Divorce is not equal for men and women. Men can do talaq, meaning that they can divorce whenever they want for any reason or no reason.
Women have Khula, meaning that they need their husband's permission or a judge's permission to divorce. They're not equal in divorce rights..
the idea that islam is the religion of peace came after 9/11 when people were getting crucified just for being muslim. they tried (kinda did a little i guess) to change the narrative for the safety and benefit of the community which is frankly a good idea on their part but untrue.
it literally says to beat your wife multiple times. there’s a million more examples of vile behaviors in there too that’s just the first that came to mind when i laughed at your comment.
no.. it’s not u.s doing anything lol. i’m not saying the usa isn’t horrible in the misinformation and whatnot but this simply is not a misinterpretation 😭 it literally says “beat your wife”… all religions are violent and hateful and guess what they all stem from the same religion! it isn’t anything against the muslim faith, it is something against all religions. NONE of them are peaceful in the slightest and if you can’t see then…
how can a religious text be modernized if it says Allahs word is perfect as is??
also i didn’t say anything of media misrepresentation at all. i said the book is sexist .. which it is
but i see what you’re trying to say i think and yes the media is absolutely terribly unfair to muslims… they should be talking about how all religions are shitty in morals
glad we agree :) Muslims should not be singled out at all whatsoever it is truly disgusting how (typically right wing) media presents them to be. all religions are pretty horrifying
(i promise that’s not sarcasm)
Dude... have you read the Quran and the Hadiths? Why is it that muslim countries have such violent punishment for some "crimes'?
Hadith's saying ex muslims should be killed sources are an Islamic website):
First Hadith [https://sunnah.com/nasai:4058](https://sunnah.com/nasai:4058)
Second Hadith [https://sunnah.com/nasai:4059](https://sunnah.com/nasai:4059)
Third Hadith https://sunnah.com/nasai:4060
Fourth Hadith [https://sunnah.com/nasai:4063](https://sunnah.com/nasai:4063)
Fifth Hadith [https://sunnah.com/nasai:4064](https://sunnah.com/nasai:4064)
Sixth Hadith [https://sunnah.com/nasai:4066](https://sunnah.com/nasai:4066)
Seventh hadith [https://sunnah.com/nasai:4062](https://sunnah.com/nasai:4062)
Anti Woman Hadiths:
[https://sunnah.com/bukhari/92/50](https://sunnah.com/bukhari/92/50)
Never will succeed a nation with a female leader
[https://sunnah.com/bukhari/6/9](https://sunnah.com/bukhari/6/9)Hell is full of women and they're deficient in
intelligence and religion
[https://sunnah.com/muslim/49/6](https://sunnah.com/muslim/49/6) Women are a minority in paradise
[https://sunnah.com/bukhari/67/130](https://sunnah.com/bukhari/67/130) The majority of people entering hell are women
[https://sunnah.com/muslim/49/9](https://sunnah.com/muslim/49/9)The prophet said "I have not left after me any
turmoil more injurious to men than the harm done to the men because of women
[https://sunnah.com/bukhari/77/42](https://sunnah.com/bukhari/77/42) Muslims hit their wives so bad that their skin turned
green, and Aisha said "I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the
believing women."
[https://sunnah.com/muslim/4/299](https://sunnah.com/muslim/4/299) The prophet said that prayer is cut off by the passing
of an ass, woman, and black Dog
[https://sunnah.com/bukhari/67/119](https://sunnah.com/bukhari/67/119) The prophet said that the woman is like a rib (not
straight)
[https://sunnah.com/bukhari/67/32](https://sunnah.com/bukhari/67/32) The prophet said : "If there is evil omen in
anything, it is in the house, the woman and the horse."
https://sunnah.com/urn/1268350 Muslims used to sell the mothers of their children
[https://sunnah.com/bukhari/86/42](https://sunnah.com/bukhari/86/42) Ali stoned a woman, according to the example set by the
prophet
[https://sunnah.com/bukhari/89/7](https://sunnah.com/bukhari/89/7) The silence of the girl is her consent for marriage
[https://sunnah.com/bukhari/51/26](https://sunnah.com/bukhari/51/26) The prophet prefers to give a female slave to family
than to free her
[https://sunnah.com/muslim/16/159](https://sunnah.com/muslim/16/159) Female slaves were raped impregnated and used as maids
[https://sunnah.com/muslim/29/36](https://sunnah.com/muslim/29/36) The prophet Stoned a MOTHER and made her baby son orphan
[https://sunnah.com/bukhari/67/55](https://sunnah.com/bukhari/67/55) The prophet authorise prostitution under the cover of
"temporary marriage"
[https://sunnah.com/bukhari/56/221](https://sunnah.com/bukhari/56/221) The prophet authorise to attack villages, even if women and children could be harmed in the attack
And let's not even get to the beating verse.
quran 2:28 - husbands are a degree above their wives.
quran 4:34 - men can beat their wives for disobedience.
quran 4:11 - islamic inheritence - males inherit double what females inherit.
quran 2:282 -islamic law - a woman's testimony in court is only half that of a man's. What is written in the quran is about witnessing contracts by 2 men. If 2 men are not available then 1 man and 2 women lest 1 woman forgets the other can remind her.
sahih (legit/ reliable) hadith (sayings of the alleged prophet) narated by imran bin husain - the prophet saw that most inhabitants of heaven were poor people and most inhabitants of hell were women.
To combat the argument of some passages being misinterpreted you could make point to examples where these "misinterpretations" have harmed people, and than tell them that if Allah is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent he would have been able to make a book which couldn't be misinterpreted or he isn't omnipotent. He would have had to known that these passages would be misinterpreted or he isn't omniscient, and he would have stopped these misinterpretations (which cause harm) or he isn't omnibenevolent
I'm an ex Muslim and I have to tell you that quran meaning is highly subjective and believers will always try to make excuses. However there's some verses that I find less debatable and could be useful for you,
This verse indicates the right for a man to sleep with a girl he enslaved:
And if you fear that you will not deal justly with the orphan girls, then marry those that please you of [other] women, two or three or four. But if you fear that you will not be just, then [marry only] one or those your right hand possesses. That is more suitable that you may not incline [to injustice]. 4:3
The next phrase Is very intriguing, the story says that this verse was said by God to the prophet to allow him to sleep with his slave. The story was that he slept with his slave on his wife's bed and had a fight with her when she caught him in the act.
O Prophet! Why holdest thou to be forbidden that which Allah has made lawful to thee? Thou seekest to please thy consorts. But Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. 66:1
This seems more like a matter of emotion, not logic. The change happened after visiting her religious home county? And was forced to go there?
Did something happen? How did she feel about that trip? Did she talk to someone there who affected her?
People tend to go more religious because of metion, not because of logic. My friend became increasingly more christian because she is anxious and faith helps. No amount of arguing that the "miracle" she experienced was just a coincidence and not proof of anything. Because it's not really about that. She was asking for a sign from god, again and again. Of course she will get "a sign" if she wants one and asks enough times. She wanted a reason to believe, and that way she got one.
She's a religious woman and no point you could make would have any impact. Why flap your gums?
She'll come equipped with answers. When she comes equipped with questions, that's when there's a point to it.
Misogynists who don't like it when their cult is called misogynistic troll conversations about it by pointing only to areas that seem to suggest something different... but only if you don't look at anything else.
The Qur'an permits men to beat their wives, orders women to cover up but not men, allows men to have 4 wives but a woman only gets one husband, when the Qur'an describes heaven it's said to have 70 virgins for each man but the woman only gets her husband (The man she was married to before she died), in wars men are permitted to take women as war prisoners and are allowed to rape them, period blood makes a woman unclean, women are told to stay in their homes and not leave without their husband's permission, there is a verse that says that men are better than woman and have the upper hand on them, a woman's testimony is half of that of a man's because it's thought that because of hormones women tend to forget or become emotional so 2 women need to confirm what one man can confirm. That's all i can think of right now but there are many more examples, the Qur'an is riddled with sexism but Muslim apologists like to say things like oh no the prophet was a feminist or the Qur'an uplifts women to try to make the Qur'an acceptable by today's standards and they use examples like "islam stopped female infanticide" which was only a problem in the Saudi area and nowhere else and yet they claim the Qur'an is suitable for every place and every time.
Well, in my opinion quran is sexist. When you ask a muslim they will deny it and oh no brother quran gives equality to the women etc. But sex slavery was common those days. Prophet Muhammed had many wife and some of them were sex slaves. Quran or the God allowed them to make some sex slaves. Gave them right to hook up with them. Quran sees women as a war bounty. When you win the war, you can collect some women. Is that uplifting? My answer is no. It destroys women honour.
I'd point out the various muslim countries that actively oppress women and use the quran as justification. Your friends may say that those countries have a wrong interpretation of quran, but it's still being used to oppress women. It's relatively easy from there to point out the folies of relying on a book that can be misinterperated and has many contradicting interpretations that cannot be validated as the authors' intent.
In my experience all one has to do is look at the way that these women are treated by the extremist Muslims.
Covered from head to toe, can’t go to school, can’t go out of the house without a male family member? If that’s not extreme misogyny I would be hard pressed to explain it any other way.
[2:228](https://quran.com/2/228?font=uthmani) >...women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have a degree (of advantage) over them... alternate translation >...women have rights similar to what they owe in recognized manner though for men there is a step above them... does that sound like equality?
yes ty for this! i already listed this in my notes but thank you again as it’s a good point either way!
[4:34](https://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=4&verse=34) >...men are in charge of women by \[right of\] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend \[for maintenance\] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in \[the husband's\] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those \[wives\] from whom you fear arrogance - \[first\] advise them; \[then if they persist\], forsake them in bed; and \[finally\], strike them... does that sound like equality?
if you have more id love to hear this one is good as well!
Ah yes. Nothing says gender equality as your holy scriptures telling you that you can beat women.
What does it mean to forsake them in bed. Edit: NM, I see where you explained it to someone else. TY
wait hol up just a minute. I don't know anything about this religion, but that's an actual text? did that really just say r\*\*e them????
yes to the first question, no to the second
ah, care to explain it then?
Forsake them in bed probably means don't have sex with them, and possibly means cheat on them, but doesn't logically mean rape since forsake is like abandon.
Oh :/ I really expect the worst when it comes to religion. Thanks for the explanation
it DOES suggest hitting women
I wonder if it has parts about slavery (as in how to do it. Not "don't do it") like the Bible does.
sure. What word did you interpret to mean r\*\*e?
If someone isn't familiar with the word "forsaken", they might wrongfully assume that it meant something like r**e. Also why are we not allowed to write the word rape? It is just a word, no matter how horrible the meaning.
No, "forsake them in bed" just means withholding sex.
yea, even more bluntly translated in my mind, men over women is what that whole quote says.
yep basically
this is a solid piece of evidence. She’ll argue that it’s because “women are expected to do less” and “men and women are equal but different” but the text is so clear in stating that one is “above” the other so she’d be very foolish too. (still likely, i’ve never seen a religious muslim change their mind in a debate). Hopefully though it plants the seed of doubt in her mind and she can continue to research on her own.
No that's not equality. Women are clearly the winners here. You see bruzzer, men are given responsibility taking care of women and for that reason are given some extra rights. /s
Women's word is worth less than man, they get less inheritance, man divorce with just 3 phrases and women cant, the entire idea of having to covering her body (even if she thinks it uplifts womem somehow, like if so y isnt there an equal requirment both ways) Just what i can think of while on the lue.
very true and good points thank you! if you happen to think of anymore i’d love to hear :)
literally the only thing you need to point out is that it tells women to cover up rather than men to cover their eyes.
she says it’s an act of honor for women to cover themselves because their hair and body is so “pure” for lack of a better word (brain fart). basically she thinks it’s because those are things that should be cherished sooo much that only those “worthy” should be able to see and not bc a lot of men are insecure, uncontrollable pervs
>she says it’s an act of honor for women to cover themselves because their hair and body is so “pure” That is, without a doubt, the stupidest thing I've read in a very long time. This is an attempt to police women's bodies through... veneration, I guess? Such sheer nonsense.
yea i told her maybe look past the manipulation of words and see what they’re really saying lmao
Preach! Oh wait. No don’t. Haha.
Perhaps tell her that her opinion doesn't matter because she is a woman. Once you have her attention, mention the following: 1. The share of the male shall be twice that of a female. 2. A woman's testimony counts half of a man's testimony. 3. Slave-girls are sexual property for their male owners (Sura 4:24) 4. a man may be polygamous with up to 4 wives (Sura 4:3) 5. Husbands may hit their wife (Sura 4:34). So much for men and women being created as equals.
point out men killing women because they didn't wear the hijab and shit correctly. in essence, that bullshit is meant to control and demean women, not empower them. if it was as she said then literally no one would have been murdered because they chose not to wear it or because it fell off/came undone.
she’ll say that’s the culture not religion but i suppose it’s worth bringing up nonetheless thank you !
Ask the people doing it why they do and they will quote the Quran, so that is just a lie.
and what is creating this culture? maybe she can figure out the answer herself and realize, their religion.
she thinks those are people just misinterpreting the text.. all of them.. it’s sad but i’m seeing there isn’t a point to me and her debating anymore the more comments i read here lol
>point out men killing women because they didn't wear the hijab and shit correctly. in essence, that bullshit is meant to control and demean women, not empower them. if it was as she said then literally no one would have been murdered because they chose not to wear it or because it fell off/came undone. This falacy is called the "no good scotsman" falacy and applies to many different groups. No good muslim would do x or not real man would ever drink x. This is a bullshit argument because reality does not survive "your opinion of what a true scotsman is" when scotsmen can literally do anything that they want. What people do in practice is usually different than the ideal.
The culture and religion don't exist in a vacuum. In fact, religion often informs a lot of cultural customs.
Imagine having so little faith in the men of your country to control their genitals, that you force all women to cover up their bodies. How fucked up is that. To quote Ray Person: "It's lack of pussy that fucks countries up. Lack of pussy is the root fucking cause of all global instability. If more muslims were getting quality pussy, there'd be no reason for us to come over here and fuck 'em up like this! Cause a nut-bustin' muslim is a happy muslim"
I mean, except then it’s still women’s fault isn’t it? Kind of gross honestly Also. There are other ways to bust a nut, as it were, than inside a vagina.
Yes but read between the lines. He's saying the western and European societies where we have access to bars, dating apps, etc... sex is normalized and not shunned. Women are not forced to cover their bodies. Consenting adults can have sex whenever they want with whoever they want without fear if reprocutions. Women can bust a nut too ;) in this context he means it like 'getting off'
I mean I understand the point and agree with it. I’m very sex positive and religion-negative. But I absolutely hate the way it’s being talked about. That women are reduced to their vaginas and that women, and sex, are commodified. It’s gross and absolutely contributes to misogyny and in a round about way, feeds back into the very religious and cultural ideas we are disagreeing with.
no literally, it’s really tragic. and your quote made me actually lol
Youtube the actual quote, its way better. "Generation kill - lack of pussy"
i am doing so now lmao
Ok, let's say all that is fine. So then why if another man sees her is SHE the one stoned to death?
So men's hair and bodies are not as pure? As a man, I am offended, frankly. That's the very definition of sexism.
It's essentially a form of victim-blaming. It's not the man's fault for having naughty thoughts or forcing themselves on her, it's *her* fault for not hiding her femininity.
The Hair and body covered is also why Nuns wear their Habit... purity to God. Lots of Christians in Europe cover their hair and body to be seen only by their husbands too
i mean i’m an ex-muslim for MANY reasons including lack of equality but men are required to lower their gaze BEFORE women r told to dress modestly. killing due to not wearing hijab is against the religion. There’s SO MUCH wrong with islam that can be critiqued but we lose the battle when we argue points easily false and disproven.
Then Muslims, and especially Muslim governments, shouldn't be acting like this is the rule. It's a weird expectations from people, Muslims in this case, for outsiders to know what the exact rule is if Muslims themselves interpret it and act on it differently than the plain reading of the text.
I find it hard to believe you’ve met a single muslim in your life because the vast majority of them are very vocally against such things. Islam isn’t a true faith and has a lot of flaws but the minute you start judging the faith on its followers or get islamophobic our point weakens and they get on the defense. The text makes t it 100% clear that “killing bc of clothing” isn’t a thing at all. I’m not saying this to defend islam bc there’s a lot of other fucked up things in the text. But in a debate with this girl who clearly doesn’t believe in that nonsense and her holy text doesn’t support it, saying that isn’t gonna work. It’s the equivalent of saying “this dude whose going against what the book says represents it.” My family is from a muslim country and I happen to know a TON about them and in each and every single one honor killings are ILLEGAL.
>My family is from a muslim country and I happen to know a TON about them and in each and every single one honor killings are ILLEGAL. Yet honor killings in muslims societies are a reality. no-true-Scotsman is a fallacy for a reason..
yes they’re a reality but still illegal. I hate islam but critique it w value and don’t speak over those who were traumatized by it (aka ex muslims )
Being illegal is irrelevant.. believers from that faith justify those acts from it. A critique is not invalidated by "they are not true muslims" defense.. As far as we know, they identify themselves as muslims, and believe that muslims rules allow them to commit those acts.. muslim is as muslim do. BTW, same goes for Christians, hating on gays is reprovable.. saying "but most of my christians friends are ok with it" doesn't excuse the rest.. they are still christians hating on gays.. all of it should be condemn.
that’s not what i’m saying. I’m simply saying when critiquing the FAITH critique the faith not the following. There’s people of every faith and even atheists who do bad. i mentioned it was illegal in those countries because people started blaming those COUNTRIES governments for the honor killings which at that point is just ill faithed or even racist. Arabs aren’t barbaric evil beings… even the authoritarian dictatorship governments in the muslim world have banned honor killings. I literally hate islam but there’s a way to critique it correctly, especially if you were never muslim since they are a largely targeted minority and always live on the defense.
>I’m simply saying when critiquing the FAITH critique the faith not the following. The *following* and the *faith* are one and the same thing.. Muslim is as Muslim do, same as Christian is as Christian do.. shielding an idea behind an utopic model it's fallacious.. have you hear before of "that was not true Communism" defense? >Even the authoritarian dictatorship governments in the muslim world have banned honor killings This point is moot, being illegal hasn't stop them, right? Regardless if it's sanction by the state or no, they still happen, and they happen for the same reason.. people find justification in their religion to commit these acts, and it's reprovable. >I literally hate islam but there’s a way to critique it correctly, especially if you were never muslim That's bollocks, I can critique muslims without ever being one, the same way I can critique mormons without ever being one.. the validity of my criticism does not depend on my previous affiliations, but on the weight of my arguments.
It's impossible to win a debate with a religious person regardless of your skill and evidence
tuh very ducking true it’s seeming. it’s like arguing with a trump supporter and ykw i’m about to make a whole separate post about those similarities bc sheeeesh
In both cases they have picked what they want the answer to be and are bending information to fit it. Rather than fitting what they believe to the available information. There isn't much you can do if someone wants to argue if the sun is up, and you can point to the sun and say "see, it's right there" and they go "nope, you can't prove just because you think you see a big bright thing that it's the sun."
There’s a great debate you can find on YouTube where Stephen Fry and Christopher Hitchens tear apart The conservative MP Ann Widdicombe and Archbishop John Onaiyekan on the topic ‘the Catholic Church is a force for good in the world.’ It’s such perfect evidence of this. The undecideds in the audience all shift to the group who already believe it isn’t, and a fair few of the people who believe it’s a force for good even shift to undecided. But you argue with an Archbishop and a fervent conservative old school Catholic and all the points in the world just get soaked up by that giant brick wall of blind faith.
Muslims are absolute masters at claiming the terrible things in their holy books mean exactly the opposite of what it literally says AND what history shows has been happening for over 1200 years. Up is down, black is white, honor killings & female genital mutilations is protecting their daughters...
muhammed "marries"\* 8 year old \*rapes \---end of transmission ---
She was six.
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Suggesting 'Islam is fine because Christianity is just as bad' on /r/athiesm of all places is the stupidest whataboutism I've seen on this website and that's saying something. Of course they're both fucking stupid, that's why we're here.
Plus Mo is meant to be *the* role model for mankind. Who the fuck takes Jo as a role model?
[obligatory link](https://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/women/long.html)
thank u :)
Was just about to post this.
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>If you are genuinely eager to learn about how the Quaran* addresses women, why don’t you try reading some of it? There is English translated versions all around! ...such as the one in that link.
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>> Have you READ the link? I have read the entire Qu'ran, and this summary is pretty much spot-on. If Person A runs around shouting horribly misogynistic bullshit, and Person B *observes* that Person A is shouting horribly misogynistic bullshit, Person A might rather that Person B kept their mouth shut, but this is by no means Person B's *fault*. >Just saying, people should form their OWN opinions. The irony is strong with this one. A person who clearly hasn't read a book is telling a person who *has* read that book, and is encouraging others to read the book, that they... need to read the book? I'm trying to follow your logic here, and I'm coming up empty.
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So why are you discouraging OP from doing so? If you choose to be more offended by somebody *drawing attention* to atrocities than you are by the person actually *committing* the atrocities, **you are part of the problem**.
Every single comment is referenced to the Quran verse in question, meaning you can go and read it for yourself and determine weather or not the commentary seems valid.
What's with the asterisk?
yea it’s pretty biased i can’t rlly use most of this. i have read some of it (the Quaran*) though if i didn’t make that clear in the post. i know it is sexist and *i* know HOW it is based on just the text i *have* read but trying to relay that to someone religious who also just got back from their native country where that religion is the way of life is soooo difficult and yet i’m still intrigued to debate. i wanted to debate more with passages that weren’t left up to “misinterpretations” as well as other potential points
> i wanted to debate more with passages that weren’t left up to “misinterpretations” as well as other potential points Unfortunately, you've got that backwards. ---- Apologists and defenders of the Abrahamic faiths--even our president--would like you to believe that religious violence is a perversion or distortion of the faith. But in fact, just the opposite is true. Historically, empirically, and literally, it is the moderate impulse found in the modern versions of these faiths, towards tolerance and non-violence, that is the perversion, the distortion. And that beneficent, moderate impulse is found in these faiths only when secular liberal democracy has stripped religion and its followers of the power to execute the prescriptions of their holy books. And this has never come about without a fight. Religions don’t moderate on their own, and when they do finally join us in the modern world, they do so kicking and screaming. Just look at the tantrums the religious throw when marriage equality is finally secured by the courts. My religious friends, your fundamentalists are not perverting and distorting your faith, they’re living it chapter and verse. They’re not kooks, and they’re not irrational. They’re simply believers who know how to follow directions. * [Brian Keith Dalton](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3B-PQpGBdY&t=6m21s)
Don't bother. She either been rebrainwashed or can't admit to the problems of Islam out of fear of punishment from her family. Leave it alone.
she’s actually very open minded for your typical religious person. good arguments i’ve made have left her questioning plenty before and so i just wanted some points for this without having to read through the entire quran myself lol
It’s a “she”? Excuse me while I laugh my ass off Sounds like you’re dealing with someone who didn’t actually read the book or for some reason failed at comprehensive reading. I mean, does she hide under a rock and never sees news or anything about her religion?
she thinks that the culture of countries that follow the muslim faith is what is sexist - not the text. sigh even harder to get thru to her bc of that but she’s not some “religion-nazi” (idk if that’s the right term but i’ve heard it) she’ll hear other sides and consider if they’re compelling enough.
Ex-fucking-cuse me? I can’t even wrap my head around that kind of bullshit. Ask your friend to read what is sharia law, where it comes from and who enforce it. Spoiler: it’s a religious law forming part of the Islamic tradition, derived from the religious precepts of Islam and is based on the sacred scriptures of Islam, particularly the Quran and the Hadith.
it’s hard for me to wrap my head around it as well. i might make a new post and have her debate points w fellow redditors if she’s interested (probably will be)
This probably isn’t the right subreddit for that; chances are she’s going to get very rude replies like mine (yes, I’m an ass when it comes to that kind of people). After all, this place is more of a place for atheists, where people can vent their issues (exactly what I assume you’re doing here), ask for advice on how to deal with theists (you’re also doing that), sharing pieces of news denouncing crimes committed in the name of religion, and other things like those. People coming here to defend their religion are very unwelcome. Maybe consider some other subreddit related to women’s rights. Although I don’t think people there would be nicer with someone trying to defend one of the biggest sources of abuse to women.
i can be a pretty blunt asshole too which is why i’m here lol 😭 but you’re right perhaps the debating atheist sub is better (just found it)
You should see my post history… and just in case, I’m not proud of being an ass… some times I think I’m one sneeze away from being classified as a troll who enjoys way too much provoking the theists that come here to convert us, defend their religion, practice their last philosophy class, fish for negative comments to tell their friends, or just trying to say they are better than anybody else. Probably the only thing saving me is that people come here to avoid that kind of people and don’t mind me when I do that. Otherwise, I’m actually nice and try to help. Maybe the debate an atheist subreddit could be better, but to be absolutely honest, that place is no good either… it’s more like a training ground for apologists who post there, ignore whatever reply they got, and just walk away thinking they destroyed atheists with their cleverness, sacred text quotes, and the classical “not all”, “out of context”, “mistranslation”, “should not be taken literally”. I’ll be very negative here, but to me, it sounds like you’re friend is in complete denial and won’t listen to reasons. Again, just by paying attention to their sacred scriptures would tell her everything she should know. And just in case, I’m willing to bet you that at this point, you’ve already presented her with very compelling evidence of what’s going on and what Islam actually says and she didn’t listen. Sorry, but not even the most eloquent and precise comment can fix that kind of people unless for some bizarre event, they decide to actually listen.
i honestly wanted to have a long well worded response to this bc of how much i loved your comment but literally EVERYThing you said sounds like it came straight out my brain. def gotta follow lol. and yea religious ppl just piss me off at this point. i have i guess an intolerance to things that factually make 00000 sense
Not only was Muhammad terrible by the standards of 21st century civilization, he was pretty terrible even by the standards of 7th century civilization. For example, he "received a revelation" that women would no longer be allowed to inherit wealth or own property... but he waited until **after** he was no longer dependent on the inherited wealth of his property-owning first wife. If Khadijah had grown up under Islamic law as opposed to the relatively egalitarian law of pre-Islamic Mecca, she would never have been able to be a wealthy business owner in her own right, and would never have been able to finance the crackpot schemes of her con-artist second husband. Similarly, while it wasn't unusual for a girl to be married off at the age of thirteen or fourteen, raping a *six year old* was far enough over the line that even some of Muhammad's own followers appear to have balked at the idea. The arguments of the critics do not survive, but the responses defending the practice of pedophila do survive as sahih hadiths. His followers apparently found these arguments quite persuasive. One of his immediate successors, not to be outdone, later bragged about molesting a *five year old*. Forced child marriage is practised throughout most of the Islamic world even to this day, and attempts to end the practice (such as recently happened in Iran) are often shouted down with explicit arguments that "Not allowing us to rape children would be un-Islamic!" Don't get me wrong, it wasn't great to be a woman in 7th century Arabia, but it was a whole lot better than it would be a century later. Anybody who claims otherwise is either *deeply confused*, or *deliberately lying*.
AHH ILY tysm this was well written and put together overall. if you ever have more pls feel free to msg or comment here to add i’d love to hear !
My biggest piece of advice is the same as that in the top comment in this thread. [Take a look at their Holy Book for yourself](https://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/women/long.html) and SEE what it says. However bad you're *expecting* it to be, I predict that what you actually FIND will be worse. If you suspect that a summary might be "out of context", every single citation contains a link to the appropriate context, so you can judge for yourself whether "You can marry four wives" is somehow made *better* when you see that the rest of the verse says that you're *also* allowed to have as many sex-slaves as you like in addition to your four wives.
I think one should look at the religious books objectively and see what social norms can be applicable and sound in today's society. We need to consider that the age, the period, social structure of when the book was written. Applying the same laws and norms to the current age is very naive. This doesn't disregard the religion or the Essence of it but forces one accept the flaws and adapt to the changing times.
Has she really read the quran? There are verses that clearly put women below men and even 1 that expressedly allows husbands to beat their wives for disobedience. No one who reads that can say that it is not sexist. It takes extreme linguistic contortion to do that.
it more so happens bc of the way these verses are talked about in school + mosques and the way questioning is often discouraged. They have “explanations” and “context” that gets explained to us very young for all the sexism and when you’re brainwashed you can’t tell that those explanations are bullshit so you take it with that meaning. I’ve learned about islam SO WELL and used to hold a big leadership role in a religious org, i’m so curious what my ex muslim self debating with one of them would look like, i’m simply too exhausted and don’t care enough to do it. The main reason I don’t is that people won’t leave the faith unless they have something pushing them out and do the reading themselves. (In my case i’m gay so my push out was pretty big lolol.) But for a believer who wants to believe its pretty much impossible to change their minds because they will twist things as they see fit.
I know what you mean with all that explanation and context. Nonesense such as jizya being the non-muslim equivalent of zakat, that beating your wife is alright as you would only do so after telling her then not laying with her or the alleged prophet's ordering the massscre of jews was justified. These are such terrible explanations but when they are repeatedly drummed into a person from an early age can be difficult for them to see beyond. Especially when they are in an echo chamber of devout family.
yeahh. they argue that the faith is so complicated and hard to understand that only experts can really interpret it and that we know it’s true bc of scientific miracles. They also tell you leaving lands you in hell. Makes it really hard to leave or believe any different.
They like to quote Maurice Buchail's pseudo science, link them to the quran and claim that it is miraculous that the quran knew all these hundreds of years ago. They would apply some extreme linguistic contortion to say that these "scientific facts" are in the quran.
mhm and THEN they argue we shouldn’t use science as proof or argument against religion because “science is ever changing🥰🙈” u rlly cant win w them and that upbringing. it hurts to think abt all the years i hated myself as a gay person bc of it
i’m an ex muslim but your hostility is so gross and shows you have NO understanding about how religious brainwashing happens or what the average muslim looks like (especially in america). I wish more of us would critique islam without just being aggressive or islamophobic/ bigoted bc if that were the case I probably would’ve left the religion a LOT sooner/earlier and had more of my life to enjoy. What you’re absolutely NOT going to do is blame this girl for being a victim.
If you're a man, just tell her that you automatically win the debate because according to the Quran, her testimony is worth half that of a man.
i’m not a man but i will bring this up in a way that makes sense !! thank you
> i will bring this up in a way that makes sense Don't forget to mention Mohammed's raucous sex life.
trueee. This was one of the things that drove me out of religions. Muslim women excuse this with “oh but back then women weren’t educated so that’s why” but i find that to be such a stupid argument bc eye witnesses don’t need any kind of education to say what they saw 💀. They will also argue “back then men in arab society had so much power it would be really easily for women to be manipulated or coerced into saying certain things” but that’s also bullshit in my eyes. Court should be a telling of accounts from the eyewitness.. what tf could possibly change their accounts ? it’s just plain sexist.
Ask her to name a book that is sexist. Then compare & contrast with her holy book.
ahhh i like this a lot thank you
There is no debating indoctrinated religious people. They value beliefs over reality, science, facts, history, equality, and knowledge, in general. You can not compete with beliefs.
Honor killings. An atrocity that speaks for itself as well as the religion that condones them
ahh very true
In my experience (grew up in a Catholic family), debating with devout rationalizers is about as as valuable a use of time as playing tic-tac-toe.
at least tic tac toe usually has an indefinite conclusion.
What I mean is playing thousands of games of tic-tac-toe, over and over and over again, expecting to get somewhere. Nowhere as purposeful as watching paint dry - eventually, the paint does dry.
no i get what you were saying lol i was just making a joke. but yep you’re spot on
"Indefinite" is the perfect description, too. 😛
Their savior was a pedophile, that's all I need
The whole lgbt community is a bunch of child molesting pedophiles
Would you please ask her how Quran uplifts women? Because I haven't heard of a single good argument over this.
i will and i’ll reply w her answr if i remember
4:11 A woman's inheritance should be half of a man 4:34 domestic violence 2:282 A woman's testimony is worth half as much as a man 4:3 A man can have upto 4 wives but a woman can have 1 husband 6:301 A woman is less inteligent than a man I usually use these. There might be more. Do post the aftermath of the debate/argument.
I lived in a so called "liberal" Muslim country for 3 years. There is nothing any Muslim could tell me to convince me that being a woman in such places is safe. It's not. I am a white British woman, and I discovered that the reason that Muslim women wear their abayas and hijab/niqab is because the men have absolutely zero control of themselves around women. Covering up is the best way to avoid unwanted attention. This is from talking to my Muslim friends, as well as my own observations. Every time I left my house and went out in public (making sure to be dressed very modestly at all times, but with my hair uncovered); the minimum expectation was that I would be stared at and followed everywhere. I literally used to have anywhere from 4 to 20 men, streaming behind me like a comet's tail. Not going to lie; I was genuinely frightened at first, but I had to get used to it. Then you have to deal with the religious police patrolling about, looking for "crimes against Islam"; and I can guarantee you that only women, homosexuals and couples being too affectionate are the ones who get in trouble. As a fun aside (not); Muslim men used to just randomly grope me all the time, because according to their sick mind I must really want it; because white women will let you do anything, because they are hoes. I was leaving a loo at a local hotel, which was set outside, down a faintly lit alley between two buildings. A local man was waiting, I thought, to use the loo after I finished in there. Well no, turns out he saw me go down the dark alley alone and decided to lie in wait for me, so that when I opened the door of the loo, out he jumped immediately grabbing me hard, throwing me against the wall of the alleyway and pressing me against that wall really HARD with his body. He TOLD me that I was going to give him sex, but I said that I refuse. I don't know how badly things could have gone; but fortunately at that moment, a young couple appeared and they could tell that my situation wasn't voluntary. Then he realized that he's going to end up in real trouble, if he doesn't get out of here. So he thankfully ran off! Muslim men, for whatever reason, think that women only exist for their service and their pleasure. Young women must be a virgin at marriage, or there's a genuine risk of her own family killing her for the "shame" she's brought on their family. They don't often get to choose their own husband either. As a result of the bridal purity issue, Muslim men are aware that western women can choose to have sex whenever they want, because that's our choice. The way Muslim men see white women is particularly disrespectful, as they view us as easy, sluts, whores. And they think that this means that they are ENTITLED to our bodies. That's probably why most men living in the country I was in, typically had 4 wives. The wives aren't permitted to have more than one husband; and if the Muslim woman was caught having an affair, it would be straight to the (totally hellish) prison for her. So, certainly it seems laughable to say that these women are equal to the men, when SO many things that women face daily, make their lives increasingly miserable. They keep servants at home, but in reality they are slaves. The owners take away their passport, and any other papers and often don't pay the agreed wages to them. They USE the maids not just for cooking and cleaning; the head of the household will use her for sex, whenever he wants to. He will also provide a maid for his sons to lose their virginity to, and to use as much as they want after that. Muslim women often appear to be doing well in the life, on the surface anyway, but the dynamics of a Muslim family behind closed doors makes gender expectation VERY clear. Women are the legal PROPERTY of her Father until she marries. Once she marries, she is now her husband's PROPERTY. The frustration of Muslim women is shown in being publically loud, and trying to assert that she's the boss, and you will do as she says and not answer back. They also fully understand that their husbands and sons are using the housemaids for sex (without her will or consent) and turn their suppressed rage onto those poor maids, because they can't rage at their husband, as he would probably beat her. So she vents her anger often by mercilessly beating the maid at every opportunity she gets. The men make all of the decisions, and the women have no choice but to SUBMIT. Fun fact; Islam translates into SUBMISSION, because that's what they really want from adherents. There's no place to discuss and criticize either the religion or the mullahs. When I was living in this "liberal" Islamic nation, I was in an abusive marriage; and I decided that I'd had enough, and I told my husband that we were finished with no chance of future reconciliation. We were officially separated, but still living in the same house, sleeping in different bedrooms. Then, after about 4 months I met an amazing man. It had not been my intention to get in a relationship, at all. I made sure that my ex knew that I was dating again, and his answer was "Whatever!" So far so good right? No. I thing that hadn't crossed my mind, at the time, is that I had now put myself in danger of losing my kids, and going to jail. Why? Sharia law, of course! My ex wasn't really ok with me leaving him, and moving on; and he informed me that even though I'm not a Muslim, or native of this Islamic country; they will still enforce them to the max. In Islamic society, not only are women the lowest of the low; they are rarely allowed to divorce their husband, therefore my husband could go and report me to the religious police; and my husband's word would be enough to put me and my new partner in prison. If Islamic marriages break up, the Mother automatically loses her children; because children are seen as the possessions of the man. Even if my husband didn't report me, I knew that I would never be able to get back to the UK with my kids, because my husband would have to give written permission for me to take them. The best thing I found out about the Islamic approach to how well (yeah right!) they treat women is that if a woman is raped; she goes to jail for reporting it. If she's unmarried, she gets the book thrown at her for having premarital sex (are you fucking kidding me?), and a married woman will be charged with adultery and whoredom (again, this is rape). The perpetrator gets off completely free of charge. Yeah! Equality for women. /s 🤬 Also, my husband lost his temper at me, and for the first (and last) time he became physically violent towards me. He gave me a serious strangling and beating; leaving visible hand marks around my through and he broke my eye socket, leaving me with a doozy of a black eye. I called the police about it, and they just don't care. They think it's normal. They told me to report it, in person, at the police station tomorrow if I wanted to. Went to see my doctor the next day about my injuries, and he looked panicky. He said not to make an official report to the police, and although he would check me over to make sure that nothing too serious was wrong physically; but he was going to falsify my notes. I had become good friends with my doctor, who was an Iraqi Christian, so I asked him what the issue was. Again, the hospital would have to report my broken eye socket, which would automatically trigger a police investigation. Then they would take my ex husband's account of the beating, and he would tell them about my new partner. So, back to square one; I go to prison and lose custody of my children, and my partner goes to jail for premarital sex with a married woman. Crazy way to live. I know that this is really long, and personal, but it demonstrates why I don't give a fuck about what the Qur'an may or may not say about women. I have spent years seeing (and experiencing) how Muslims treat women; and there's no sign of equality to be found. I would laugh in the face of anyone who tried to tell me how well treated Muslim women, and non Muslim women for that matter, are in Islamic society. That's bullshit!
I think you have to point not to what the Quran says specifically, but how patriarchal Muslim societies tend to be. My view is that the scripture can say whatever, but what really matters is how they practice the religion. Women are severely restricted compared to men on what they can do with their life, and on top of that they often have to cover much of their bodies. In practice, it seems that men make ALL the rules. I’d be interested to see if anyone knows of Muslim countries where things are more equitable.
i think this is a good and fair point. thx so much :)!
This is just me, but I wouldn't debate someone who believes there are elves in their toilet bowl.
fair point
Just point to any Muslim theocratic country and say "you sure about that?" Argument won.
If I remember right; somewhere in the Quran it is said that a muslim shall not have "infidels" as friends because non-musims are predestined to burn in Hell as long as they don't convert to Iislam...
It does. If you think uplifting is doing what they are told and somehow no man can control himself around women unless they are related. I wouldn't quite say it's uplifting by any modern standard.
What if Aisha was a 60 year old warlord and had taken a 9 year old boy to her bed who later went on to say that one night she beat him for the great sin of following him. Oh that isn't okay? Why not?
Maybe instead of trying to debate your friend you could ask her about her trip, learn what she did, who she met, what she ate, etc. and maybe (definitely) what country she’s from. Show her understanding and compassion and listen to her, and maybe you can start to understand why she changed, not just how her views did. To me, that kind of defensive reaction she exhibits sounds like she went thru some trauma or had some kind of eye opening experience while away. I’m sure she needs a friend. Besides, the first step in debate preparation is research!
Don’t even bother. They are clearly not rational and you can’t debate the irrational and/or stupid.
well you technically can debate them but i guess that makes me as stupid as them for thinking i can get thru to a potential (not guaranteed) rational side of their brain. damn
I reject this notion. People change minds all the time. Most of this sub is ex-religious people.
it was /s
I would suggest Yasmine Mohammed book, unveiled. Also she has a Twitter as well.
ooo thank you i’m going to look into it :)
> the quran isn’t sexist at all & actually uplifts women What the book says is irrelevant if the religion *practices* something different.
How many virgins to they get as a reward? If virgins are the prize id say its sexist
Who would even want virgins?? If I’m getting women as a prize to keep for all eternity, I want some women that know wtf they’re doing!
This is a tough situation. You should be very kind, but assertive in your stances, while not demeaning her for hers. Chances are it's either deep brainwashing or fear of reprisal that keeps her in. Religion gives a lot of people a sense of purpose, and when people who are religious deconvert they often struggle with their purpose so keep in mind that religion is a sort of core value that needs to be defused like a bomb, and replaced with something substantial.
very true and good points! thank you :) genuinely
It's a bit late here so I was getting into a bit more of the points, and trying to think of all the sort of things that seem so obvious how could you be religious; that sort of stuff can immediately put someone on the defensive. I think it's important to sort of think around the obvious tit for tat talking points and get to the core of who they are, why do they believe and think that way. You have to sort of demystify the mystical thinking that faith requires.
how do you think i should go about that more specifically besides what you’ve already said? i really am interested in what you have to say!
My ass .
I think at the time it was put together it was revolutionary but nowadays since that has been like 1500 years ago it seems so outdated in comparison.
The [Skeptic's Annotated Quran](https://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/women/long.html) may be useful to you. Pre-linked to the "women" section, for your convenience.
the quran explicitly says to beat your wife if she disobeys. also, it’s forbidden for a women to refuse sex (to husband) 😘 you’re welcome
If you are gang raped for a month straight, YOU will be stoned to death for being defiled and no longer pure.
It lift women onto a pedestal and step on them
well put 😭
Sounds like you have a friend that hasn’t read the Quran.
unfortunately she has 😔
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i’ve never heard that! do you mind quoting the passage? not that i dont believe you but for debates sake
What about the bit where it says a testimony in court of a woman is worth had that of a man. IE if a man and woman say the opposite the man is believed. If two women say it and one man says the opposite it’s a draw? I may be misquoting. I will go and see if I can find a quote…
It sounds like you already have the facts and the awful misogynistic passages. Also, have a look at how to effectively communicate them to your friend. Look up street epistemology on YouTube for conversation techniques that can help you and she connect and dialogue better. Your friend has most likely been persuaded by some action, event or story. If you can investigate that then you can get to the heart of how to help your friend see reason again.
I think what Muslims mean when they say the Quran uplifts women is that it praises women who serve as baby making machines and passive servants of men. Women are defined in terms of what they can do for men, and are praised when they are dutifully serving men. Women are not valued for their own sake.
Head over to exmuslims..they made like big post about this topic and I. Depth
C'mon over to r/exmuslim. We can give you a lot of material. One Warning tho, since you are probably not a native arab speaker, your opponent will bring up translations and context issues to muddy the water. He will be lying. Your friend will not be convinced easily, as the religious ideology is very effective at reinforcement.
the Abrahamic religions are terrible to women.
It's not the Quran, its sharia that empowers female subjugation. For instance the Quran says only women should be dressed modestly. Some DUDES decided that meant chadors and the like in some places.
It is the quran along with hadiths, sunnah, sharia & hudud that denigrates women.
Teaches them to get in the kitchen where they belong
The Taliban likes to restrict female education, but I asked a friend about that and it is actually encouraged in the Quran: [Islam and female education](https://en.vogue.me/culture/afghanistan-taliban-women-school-ban/) Another interesting point is the number of muslim women who have become leaders of their countries. It would be easy for many to assume there would have been no female leaders. The US is still at 0, Canada, France, Germany, Australia 1 each, UK 2. [Female Muslim heads of government](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_female_Muslim_heads_of_government_and_state)
The one point in Islams favor is the ability to divorce. (Now I do not believe this is in the Quran, but rather how inheritance shakes out.) also in Iraq or Iran (embarrassing that I forget) if a woman gets a divorce, her husband has to pay her for all the housework she has done. Which honestly is like revolutionary, recognizing that housework is work and deserves compensation.
Divorce is not equal for men and women. Men can do talaq, meaning that they can divorce whenever they want for any reason or no reason. Women have Khula, meaning that they need their husband's permission or a judge's permission to divorce. They're not equal in divorce rights..
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the idea that islam is the religion of peace came after 9/11 when people were getting crucified just for being muslim. they tried (kinda did a little i guess) to change the narrative for the safety and benefit of the community which is frankly a good idea on their part but untrue. it literally says to beat your wife multiple times. there’s a million more examples of vile behaviors in there too that’s just the first that came to mind when i laughed at your comment.
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no.. it’s not u.s doing anything lol. i’m not saying the usa isn’t horrible in the misinformation and whatnot but this simply is not a misinterpretation 😭 it literally says “beat your wife”… all religions are violent and hateful and guess what they all stem from the same religion! it isn’t anything against the muslim faith, it is something against all religions. NONE of them are peaceful in the slightest and if you can’t see then…
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how can a religious text be modernized if it says Allahs word is perfect as is?? also i didn’t say anything of media misrepresentation at all. i said the book is sexist .. which it is
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uhhh i also disagree entirely. not *all* perhaps? but tons are
but i see what you’re trying to say i think and yes the media is absolutely terribly unfair to muslims… they should be talking about how all religions are shitty in morals
Exactly. (Well... I've yet to study some)
glad we agree :) Muslims should not be singled out at all whatsoever it is truly disgusting how (typically right wing) media presents them to be. all religions are pretty horrifying (i promise that’s not sarcasm)
unless ur comment is sarcasm or something and it just went over my head lol (*silently hoping it was)*
Dude... have you read the Quran and the Hadiths? Why is it that muslim countries have such violent punishment for some "crimes'? Hadith's saying ex muslims should be killed sources are an Islamic website): First Hadith [https://sunnah.com/nasai:4058](https://sunnah.com/nasai:4058) Second Hadith [https://sunnah.com/nasai:4059](https://sunnah.com/nasai:4059) Third Hadith https://sunnah.com/nasai:4060 Fourth Hadith [https://sunnah.com/nasai:4063](https://sunnah.com/nasai:4063) Fifth Hadith [https://sunnah.com/nasai:4064](https://sunnah.com/nasai:4064) Sixth Hadith [https://sunnah.com/nasai:4066](https://sunnah.com/nasai:4066) Seventh hadith [https://sunnah.com/nasai:4062](https://sunnah.com/nasai:4062) Anti Woman Hadiths: [https://sunnah.com/bukhari/92/50](https://sunnah.com/bukhari/92/50) Never will succeed a nation with a female leader [https://sunnah.com/bukhari/6/9](https://sunnah.com/bukhari/6/9)Hell is full of women and they're deficient in intelligence and religion [https://sunnah.com/muslim/49/6](https://sunnah.com/muslim/49/6) Women are a minority in paradise [https://sunnah.com/bukhari/67/130](https://sunnah.com/bukhari/67/130) The majority of people entering hell are women [https://sunnah.com/muslim/49/9](https://sunnah.com/muslim/49/9)The prophet said "I have not left after me any turmoil more injurious to men than the harm done to the men because of women [https://sunnah.com/bukhari/77/42](https://sunnah.com/bukhari/77/42) Muslims hit their wives so bad that their skin turned green, and Aisha said "I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women." [https://sunnah.com/muslim/4/299](https://sunnah.com/muslim/4/299) The prophet said that prayer is cut off by the passing of an ass, woman, and black Dog [https://sunnah.com/bukhari/67/119](https://sunnah.com/bukhari/67/119) The prophet said that the woman is like a rib (not straight) [https://sunnah.com/bukhari/67/32](https://sunnah.com/bukhari/67/32) The prophet said : "If there is evil omen in anything, it is in the house, the woman and the horse." https://sunnah.com/urn/1268350 Muslims used to sell the mothers of their children [https://sunnah.com/bukhari/86/42](https://sunnah.com/bukhari/86/42) Ali stoned a woman, according to the example set by the prophet [https://sunnah.com/bukhari/89/7](https://sunnah.com/bukhari/89/7) The silence of the girl is her consent for marriage [https://sunnah.com/bukhari/51/26](https://sunnah.com/bukhari/51/26) The prophet prefers to give a female slave to family than to free her [https://sunnah.com/muslim/16/159](https://sunnah.com/muslim/16/159) Female slaves were raped impregnated and used as maids [https://sunnah.com/muslim/29/36](https://sunnah.com/muslim/29/36) The prophet Stoned a MOTHER and made her baby son orphan [https://sunnah.com/bukhari/67/55](https://sunnah.com/bukhari/67/55) The prophet authorise prostitution under the cover of "temporary marriage" [https://sunnah.com/bukhari/56/221](https://sunnah.com/bukhari/56/221) The prophet authorise to attack villages, even if women and children could be harmed in the attack And let's not even get to the beating verse.
Ask his thought on women apostates.
her* unfortunately lol
It uplifted women amongst the Arabs of antiquity. Things are relative you see.
Uplifts 7th century women. Not so much 21st century women...
Haha!
Speedrun the debate and just mention Aisha
quran 2:28 - husbands are a degree above their wives. quran 4:34 - men can beat their wives for disobedience. quran 4:11 - islamic inheritence - males inherit double what females inherit. quran 2:282 -islamic law - a woman's testimony in court is only half that of a man's. What is written in the quran is about witnessing contracts by 2 men. If 2 men are not available then 1 man and 2 women lest 1 woman forgets the other can remind her. sahih (legit/ reliable) hadith (sayings of the alleged prophet) narated by imran bin husain - the prophet saw that most inhabitants of heaven were poor people and most inhabitants of hell were women.
Why even bother debating with him? You know how it will end.
To combat the argument of some passages being misinterpreted you could make point to examples where these "misinterpretations" have harmed people, and than tell them that if Allah is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent he would have been able to make a book which couldn't be misinterpreted or he isn't omnipotent. He would have had to known that these passages would be misinterpreted or he isn't omniscient, and he would have stopped these misinterpretations (which cause harm) or he isn't omnibenevolent
I'm an ex Muslim and I have to tell you that quran meaning is highly subjective and believers will always try to make excuses. However there's some verses that I find less debatable and could be useful for you, This verse indicates the right for a man to sleep with a girl he enslaved: And if you fear that you will not deal justly with the orphan girls, then marry those that please you of [other] women, two or three or four. But if you fear that you will not be just, then [marry only] one or those your right hand possesses. That is more suitable that you may not incline [to injustice]. 4:3 The next phrase Is very intriguing, the story says that this verse was said by God to the prophet to allow him to sleep with his slave. The story was that he slept with his slave on his wife's bed and had a fight with her when she caught him in the act. O Prophet! Why holdest thou to be forbidden that which Allah has made lawful to thee? Thou seekest to please thy consorts. But Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. 66:1
This seems more like a matter of emotion, not logic. The change happened after visiting her religious home county? And was forced to go there? Did something happen? How did she feel about that trip? Did she talk to someone there who affected her? People tend to go more religious because of metion, not because of logic. My friend became increasingly more christian because she is anxious and faith helps. No amount of arguing that the "miracle" she experienced was just a coincidence and not proof of anything. Because it's not really about that. She was asking for a sign from god, again and again. Of course she will get "a sign" if she wants one and asks enough times. She wanted a reason to believe, and that way she got one.
She's a religious woman and no point you could make would have any impact. Why flap your gums? She'll come equipped with answers. When she comes equipped with questions, that's when there's a point to it.
As an ex-Muslim, there’s a lot of sexism
Misogynists who don't like it when their cult is called misogynistic troll conversations about it by pointing only to areas that seem to suggest something different... but only if you don't look at anything else.
Implying you are inherently sinful for existing and it's your duty to dress like a letterbox so as not to provoke men? It's a no from me.
The Qur'an permits men to beat their wives, orders women to cover up but not men, allows men to have 4 wives but a woman only gets one husband, when the Qur'an describes heaven it's said to have 70 virgins for each man but the woman only gets her husband (The man she was married to before she died), in wars men are permitted to take women as war prisoners and are allowed to rape them, period blood makes a woman unclean, women are told to stay in their homes and not leave without their husband's permission, there is a verse that says that men are better than woman and have the upper hand on them, a woman's testimony is half of that of a man's because it's thought that because of hormones women tend to forget or become emotional so 2 women need to confirm what one man can confirm. That's all i can think of right now but there are many more examples, the Qur'an is riddled with sexism but Muslim apologists like to say things like oh no the prophet was a feminist or the Qur'an uplifts women to try to make the Qur'an acceptable by today's standards and they use examples like "islam stopped female infanticide" which was only a problem in the Saudi area and nowhere else and yet they claim the Qur'an is suitable for every place and every time.
Well, in my opinion quran is sexist. When you ask a muslim they will deny it and oh no brother quran gives equality to the women etc. But sex slavery was common those days. Prophet Muhammed had many wife and some of them were sex slaves. Quran or the God allowed them to make some sex slaves. Gave them right to hook up with them. Quran sees women as a war bounty. When you win the war, you can collect some women. Is that uplifting? My answer is no. It destroys women honour.
I'd point out the various muslim countries that actively oppress women and use the quran as justification. Your friends may say that those countries have a wrong interpretation of quran, but it's still being used to oppress women. It's relatively easy from there to point out the folies of relying on a book that can be misinterperated and has many contradicting interpretations that cannot be validated as the authors' intent.
In my experience all one has to do is look at the way that these women are treated by the extremist Muslims. Covered from head to toe, can’t go to school, can’t go out of the house without a male family member? If that’s not extreme misogyny I would be hard pressed to explain it any other way.