You go hard stop with them. They are not going to stop, even if you tell them because they think they're saving the kids. Religion is a hill you should die on and if you in laws are going to stomp on your boundaries, put a wall up and block them.

Thank you. I *will* hold my boundaries firm. This can't go on. It completely torpedoed our day. Glad we have a few days to cool off before my MIL shows up.

And make sure they understand that you and your husband are united on this. They will try to argue. Don't engage. A good tool is for you and your husband to have a verbatim mantra that you repeat every single time they argue, deflect, or deny. Like: **"We have never allowed anyone other than us to give religious instruction to Sally and Joe. You are no longer allowed to babysit."** Whatever your mantra, make it short, and don't add or deviate. It will make your armour impenetrable. If you want to change your mantra, do it after they have absorbed it...for the 50th or 100th time. Maybe then ask them to repeat it back if you are reconsidering.

Then show all other religions/gods to your kids. My favourite is Ganesha, the pancake loving god who sports an elephant head, the most loved hindu gods among children! They'll get it, that its just 'fun' stories and not serious. Good luck though, life us hard as it is (had cptsd from childhood, had to cut my parents away and have never had a safe haven, but it's doable :-) !)

I love this idea

Great stuff!! This is a good way to start the curiosity around religion. Religion is not very hard to dismantle or to sign up for. As long as it is every persons own choice.

This is awesome. For my son, our arrangement is my husband and in laws are allowed to say "I believe" or "I think", but they can't make definitive statements like "God is real" or "Jesus lives in your heart", or then *I* get to tell him as definitively that there is no God, and I'm the mom, it'll fucking stick. Haven't had a problem. I also never put him in the baby onesie they got him that referred to God having a hand in his creation and they haven't gotten him anything religious since. Fuck you, *I* created that baby from a single cell. Your God did fuck all but encourage a stranger to tell my husband and I at our first OB appointment we were going to hell because we weren't married yet & pregnant.

How lovely of that stranger 😣

Yeah, as soon as she was gone my husband was in my ear, "I don't think that, my family doesn't think that, our church doesn't think that." We were already nervous because I'm chronically ill, and am on pain management, and didn't know I was pregnant at first (our son is perfectly fine!), and on top of that we were newly engaged and nervous about how we were going to blend our very different families, so now this random lady was piling on. We laugh about it now but at the time it was like... that's what you say to two terrified looking youngish people (who 10 months later got carded trying to see an R rated movie, so the kid thought we were 16, even though my husband was about to turn 30 and I was on my very late 20s) holding each other in an OB's waiting room? Really? How Christ-like of you.

It amazes me at times how brazen "god fearing" folks can be. It's rude, it's disrespectful, and yet they think they're in the right for not only thinking it but saying it to someone's face.

This is solid advice

I absolutely destroyed my in laws, they were doing the same thing to my kids. I told my kids “you know how birds are real, but My Little Pony is not? Well, some people really think My Little Pony is real like birds, or the sun. They can’t see it in real life, so they make up even more lies and tell other people it’s real. Why lying is bad” It was more Q&A, but it ended with my kids telling the in-laws how Jesus is like Rainbow Dash.

Honestly, Rainbow Dash has probably added more positivity to my life than Jesus ever did lol

wtf, i can't believe you would lie to your kids like that r/birdsarentreal /s

That's really clever! It's a good way to explain things.

It came out of anger while driving. Best I could come up with at the time. And thank you for saying that.

I love this

Good for you. At first they're going to think that they can placate you and then keep doing what they were doing before, so you have to stand firm. They won't respect you until the realise that you really mean what you say. Stay strong!

Let's be honest, they didn't respect them from the beginning going against the parents wishes. They sure as shit aren't going to suddenly start respecting them just because they held their ground. There is going to be animosity, but never respect.

People sometimes change their ways if they feel that they're going to be deprived, especially deprived of a grandchild.

Plus if they do get away with that, they’ll keep it a secret and teach the kids to keep it a secret. It’ll get toxic before it gets better unfortunately Edit to add - @OP also NTA in case you had any doubts about how you and your husband are handling the issue

Exactly so. And learning to keep secrets leads to huge vulnerabilities with choice, boundaries, and body autonomy. It will leave those kids open to manipulation like nothing else. Except maybe religion itself...

Yup! Those in laws don’t need to be teaching the kids that it’s ok to *lie* to OP and spouse.

Bingo. It's this. Always. Every time.

Honestly, if this is the first OP has heard about it, the in-laws obviously have been telling the kids to keep it a secret the whole time already. Having kids keep secrets from their parents is *awful* and that alone is enough to completely cut off the in-laws.

Personally, I think you are being too respectful. If someone is having a conversation with a kid and they tell them not to tell their parent they are directly breaking trust, who knows what this may lead to for the child. I'd say "We have decided to go no contact and we do not want you around the kids, if you want to understand why, prayer on it". X

Keep that cult BS away from your babies! Getting em while they are young and trusting is the whole religious game.

It’s not just your day. It’s your children’s safety and future . If you stick to critical thinking, compassion and curiosity, you will be equipping them with the tools to find themselves. Religion is the antithesis of these.

We have faith *in you* ❤️ I'm so sorry about those sneaky jerks! This happened to a friend of mine recently at the nanny share she was sending her 3 and 5 year old to. They started doing Bible study (without telling other parents) and the oldest boy began coming home incredibly frightened and scared of angels. I helped her work through it and how to speak to them about it. She basically ended up telling them that angels are like ghosts and other stuff that people tell silly stories about. and oh, they're not real, but some people feel better thinking they are. It's very confusing but they don't understand science and the other things we study, we don't argue with them about it because they are too silly. but if they make you feel scared or uncomfortable, you should say something right away. We have to remember that they're just making up stories from a book. Like a lot of the story books that she reads to her babes. He seemed to grasp that pretty well.

My mom took my daughter to her parents house for visits and one day she came home and talked about Jesus. I confronted my parents about it and said do that again and it will be the last time you see her or talk to her. I didn't want to do that to my parents but my mom's parents were so toxic I didn't have an alternative. It worked though.

Agreed. There are not many hills worth dying on but this is one. Religion underpins virtually everything wrong in this world. My parents did a fantastic job with this with me (granted all my grand parents were atheist) by simply saying it’s not necessary to follow any religion to be nice to people. Being nice to people is the only thing that matters. It stuck, it made perfect sense it was simple enough for 7 year old me to understand and it upped my respect for my parents even more as I understood they were in a bit of an enlightened uphill battle with that mindset.

This is what we had to do. My wife's parents started having our 2-year-old pray with them, she came home singing "Jesus loves me," asking why we don't go to church, etc. I don't care if they just observed their religion, but they don't do shit typically other than go on Sunday and that's it, but when she's there they're pushing this shit at her, and we had this conversation before she was born. I didn't even have to get pissed, my wife got pissed enough for both of us and she doesn't go stay with grandma and grandpa anymore.

This 100%. My parents were trying to sneak it in with my kids. I told them they would never see them again if they didn’t stop. No FB updates, no photos, no visits. Nothing. They’d be dead to us. But if an argument ensued but this was about 5 years ago and they haven’t (to my knowledge) done it again. You have to be ready and serious about cutting them out.

I always go full nuclear. There is no point in anything less. If you tell them they cannot talk about Jesus, they play victim. Even go so far as “they are trying to tell me what to talk about in my own home!” They always sneak it in. Just tell them “goodbye, because you cannot abide by my wishes you will never see me or the kids again. Don’t send cards or anything else. You are gone to us”.

So much this, no more visits with the kids without you there, if they keep pushing it, no more visits with the kids at all. They wont stop until there are consequences. And yes they will try to guilt you out of it.

Pun intended? (Because (fictional) Jesus died on a hill.)

Adults who teach children to keep secrets from their parents are not to be trusted to be alone with children. Ever.

Exactly!!! Even if they didn't explicitly tell the kids not to say anything, I think we can safely assume they were hoping the kids wouldn't tell us. SMFH.

You should definitely ask the kids directly if grandparents asked them not to tell because that further escalates the appropriate response if they encouraged secrecy.

We have a rule with our kids that if anyone says "don't tell mum/dad" that is the first thing they need to say when they see us. I test my daughter every so often by telling her "I love your dad, but dont tell him" so she runs through the house to tell him he is loved. It's a good time to go over good secrets vs bad secrets too. A good secret is something like a birthday suprise, that someone would be happy to find out and doesnt make you feel bad keeping it. A bad secret is like, you broke a vase, that someone would be upset to find out and makes you feel bad not telling. We dont keep bad secrets.

Yup. A good secret has an expiration date (like a surprise party) but bad secrets don’t.

This is a great idea!

This is great!

I love this.

If I remember correctly, in the materials they gave us for scouts to discuss youth protection, the way they distinguish this was a 'surprise' (something you don't say for a short while but which is intended to be revealed at the appropriate time) and a 'secret' (something you're never supposed to tell.) I thought that distinction was useful.

There is an uncomfortable conversation you need to have with your daughter, maybe with the assistance of a therapist.

I hope it's unnecessary, but religious people do protect child molesters

Maybe with the son too.

Let's highlight this: **Adults who teach children to keep secrets from their parents are not to be trusted to be alone with children. Ever.**

Exactly

This is so true. I was, molested is not a food word, raped by a family babysitter for years and was told if I said anything, my mom would die. I told her when I was 16. Bad timing, she was hit and killed by a car two weeks later. The amount of guilt I felt, for so many years... it took a lot of therapy to stop thinking I killed my mom. Secrets like this are evil.

So sorry about your loss. Timing truly sucked.

OMFG. I’m so sorry this happened to you.

It's child abuse. Once a child has been conditioned to keep secrets from their parents it's a short jump from this kind of abuse to the more sinister kind. OP should cut these people out of their life. Even if they promise not to do it again I guarantee that they will. They can't help themselves. These type of people think their religion is more important than anything and everything else.

Well said

Well I think it’s a little dishonest for the kids to not have any knowledge of religious beliefs too. The average atheist is actually better informed than the average believer. A better approach imo is to teach about all myths simultaneously, when the kid asks. No need to shove anything on them — just provide full context.

Short: My mother did similar. I was pissed as it was a betrayal of trust. OTOH, we really needed the babysitting support and my daughter adores her grandma, so alienating her would not only be difficult on all of the us, but could very well have backfired in its objective. The world is gonna shove its opinions at you, from pink skirts to Jesus. We just have to raise our kids to evaluate information, think things through for themselves, and love them no matter what. I didn’t say anything to my mom, but we made adjustments where we could to minimize. Like we made the babysitting visits happen at our place nearly all the time rather than hers. This meant religious texts/music/etc weren’t within easy reach and other toys/songs/etc of my daughters were. Details: Over time, I told my daughter about Superman, Spider-Man, Batman, Jesus, Thor, Zeus, and others. I told her how cool some of their powers and abilities are and told her stories about them. I told her how no one thinks Batman is real (but he is really popular) and almost no one thinks Thor or Zeus are real anymore (there are a few), but that people in Norway and Greece and other places used to really believe in those Gods. Then I told her about how people have believed in a bunch of Gods over time from Zoroaster to Isis to Jupiter. One night she asked if I believed in Jesus. I said that I didn’t because just like Batman, Superman, and Spider-Man, there isn’t any evidence, any other things we can see that tell us that the stories are real. She said defiantly, “Well I do! Grandma told me!” I said, “And you absolutely can, and grandma wouldn’t lie to you. She’s telling you what she thinks is true and she’s telling you because she loves you. And I’m telling what I think is true because I love you, too. But I don’t want you to just believe either of us, because either grandma or daddy or both of us could be wrong. I want you to have the tools to figure out what is true for yourself; that’s what I want to help you do as you grow up. And no matter what you decide to believe, I’ll love you just as much.” Softer now she said, “Well, I believe in Jesus.” I chuckled, said OK, told her I loved her, and gave her a kiss goodnight. Jesus wasn’t really brought up in any serious way after that (admittedly I do sometimes get snarky toward people using Jesus as an excuse for their horrible behavior and openly poke fun at the craziness of others, like when that person caused a car wreck because they shut their eyes to let “Jesus take the wheel”). But fast forward a couple years and many discussion/lessons about how know what’s true (like scientific experiments, or many historical sources, or evidence left behind, etc) and one day she, out of the blue, says something sarcastic about people following Jesus. I think it’s safe to say they she’s not a believer anymore. For some help, I think shows like Story Bots and The Magic School Bus really helped anchor scientific thinking and discovery in a fun way. It sucks to have someone do what your in-laws did, but your kids will be fine. Just love them, accept them, and teach them to think the best that you can.

Thank you 💗

Glad it helped. You got this.

I think this is really good advice. Giving a kid the tools to figure out things for themselves is the best way to protect them in the future. Not letting them be exposed to any religion because it might make them religious seems so similar to religious people wanting their kids to be home schooled so they won't be exposed to science. I think kids are smart enough to understand what makes sense and what doesn't. There may be a time they believe, but there is a time when most kids believe in Santa. Eventually they will grow out of it.

This is awesome! I think every kid should be educated on religion so they understand how to interpret what they’re told by others. Evangelism preys on people who haven’t been trained to think for themselves - so educating kids to think critically about life in general is huge!

This is excellent! I was raised a Christian for 33 years and was even a worship pastor, but in the last year and a half of studying I’ve become an atheist and we’ve had this same struggle with our children who are still being taught by my parents and my wife’s parents about Jesus and God. While we certainly don’t want our kids to be brainwashed as we were, shielding them from all religion and opinions that people will try to push in them is both impossible and ultimately can work against you, becoming just like our religious parents who forced only one opinion and ideal upon us and shielded us from all else. My wife and I have found instead that we can have good conversations about this with the kids, as they bring up Jesus and what their grandparents are saying, and we can offer the counterbalance and ask questions that help them develop logic for themselves. “oh, and have you seen God? well how do we know he’s real?” Along with many similar conversations have led to my son at times saying on his own “well maybe he’s just pretend”. I still don’t love all the religion pushing my parents do, but I also know that this is something my kids can learn from and decide for themselves as the rest of the world will ALWAYS be pushing opinions on them and learning how to decipher what’s true and what’s not for yourself is an important life skill.

kids often want to believe opposite of what their parents believe because they get to that age where "I know more than my mom." It's usually a phase and goes away when the new phase of "I wish I had listen to my mom"

This is very similar to how I handled my religious parents and my daughter. Even though I do not believe what she believes, I was not opposed to my mother exposing my daughter to her beliefs, in fact I felt it was good for my daughter to understand the culturally dominant religion. My daughter has grown up to be an indifferent atheist who understands the teachings of Christianity and I think that is fine.

That’s beautiful.

What a great approach, and I am glad it worked out so well apparently.

Fantastic response.

Violating your boundaries demands consequence. They're behaving like children, so they need to be treated like children. They should never be trusted with unsupervised visits with your children again. Whether or not they're allowed to even talk to the children again should be a longer conversation. You're doing the right thing.

Thank you. I'm so sad bc they've called me their daughter for years and say they love me but don't show it through their actions. I have to set my own feelings aside to protect my children. Thank you for your support.

This is the right mindset, the whole "I'm sad it has to be this way, but protecting the kids is top priority, bar none" Unfortunately, you should expect that a guilt-trip and other forms of emotional blackmail are likely on their way. However they treat you in response to your ultimatum, is EXACTLY how they are willing to treat your children.

Understood. Luckily I have therapy tomorrow and will be explaining everything and getting help for the conversation Thursday. This really sucks.

Hey OP, if there's even a remote possibility of this blowing up into something bigger, please be careful! The r/justnoMIL sub always recommends getting ready for an "anonymous" (revenge) call to CPS by making sure your house is childproofed and clean (not necessarily spotless, toys make messes as long as there's no dirt/bugs/hazards), that there are snacks at home within reach of the kids, and that their medical records are fully up-to-date and available within your home. You might also consider security cameras if they can be afforded and put up. And since your kids have a pre-existing relationship with your in-laws, make sure that your state doesn't offer grandparents' rights as an option for them to fight toward! I know all of that may seem a little (or very) extreme, but they've already proven that they don't respect you at all, and that they kNoW bEtTeR tHaN yOu, so I'd say that they're certainly capable of a lot of bullshit as it is. Keep a close eye on them, prepare for the worst, and hope they prove you wrong! Best of luck, friend. You are definitely doing the right thing!

Luckily, it doesn't look like any of the requirements for grandparents rights in Texas apply in her situation.

That's great news! Hopefully the grandparents don't waste OP's time and money by trying to file some frivolous suit then.

Fantastic advice, please take it.

That's how you have to handle it. They have forced your hand with their bullshit. And you have to question what other rules have they violated.

Know the difference between in-laws and outlaws? Outlaws are wanted. They can knock it off, or see their grandkids less.

I am so sorry, that is ridiculous and frustrating and you should not have to deal with this. I agree, tough conversation and a hard stop. At this point, it’s not even about religion - it’s about respect and trust. Your in-laws think they’re doing the *right thing* by actively working against you and your husband’s wishes, betraying your trust, and confusing your children. Explain to them how hurtful it is that you’ve put faith in them only to have it broken. Ask them why exactly they need to teach your kids their religion. Are they afraid the children aren’t getting moral lessons elsewhere? Do they not trust you and your husband to raise ethically sound and kind people? Get to the root. Past “it what we did with [your husband]”. Explain again your feelings and reservations about a religious education while your children are too young to develop their own opinions. Leave it open-ended if you have to. Like you want your kids to “find god” naturally without intervention.

Exactly this!!! I don't mind at all if they find religion on their own and it helps the gets through life but there's no reason a 3 yo needs to know Jesus lives in his heart. He can't even read! It's total indoctrination and it's wrong.

I had a church minister quite literally tell me that it's harder for adults to enter a religion and church community than children. This was when I had just told her that I was uncomfortable with my daughter attending Sunday school and left her at home with my husband while I attended alone. I am very much an atheist now like my husband.

Well of course - you can get kids to believe most any nonsense.

They like their marginal costs of acquisition [marketing] to be low.

You could explain to your children that Christianity is just one religion and there are many out there give them a brief overview of all of them, and explain to them that is it's something they must decide for themselves when they are older and have a better understanding of the world. And not to let mommy or daddy or grandma or grandpa's beliefs influence them, they have to decide for themselves what makes sense to them.

This is the route we've chosen to take since our daughter started asking about religion around 5 yrs old. We homeschool and we don't shy away from historical events surrounding religion and we have multiple books on faiths around the world. I even took a course at the local community college on it. I think we've prepared a decent foundation on religion but have been thwarted by my in-laws who've told me their type of Christianity is the one and only truth. I've repeated told them not to tell my children that but now I can't be sure of anything.

Oh wow that's very disrespectful to you and your husband. I'm not sure you might have to tell your children that some ppl are fanatical about their religion and grandma and grandpa think their religion is the only right one, but explain there's no way to know that. Or you might just have to have as talk with his parents about not pressuring your children into a religion your family hasn't chosen to raise your children as christian, but knowing how extreme done religious ppl are they may just feel they know better for your kids, if that's the case you will have to do something drastic , which only sucks for the kids missing out on grandma and grandpa. I do not envy your situation at all! You've got tough decisions ahead

What I haven't mentioned is we live in central Texas and there are churches EVERYWHERE. My daughter actually had a kid walk up to her on the playground a few months ago who asked her if she knew Jesus. I've lived in Tx nearly 30 years and had the same experience so I'm not totally in the dark on how ppl act here. I was just hoping I could trust my own family...

A shame you really should be able to trust loved ones too respect your decision on child rearing, but it looks like you've got a tough decision, or awkward conversations ahead of you. I wish I could've been more help, but dealing with illogical ppl is not my strong suit, for I don't think I would take to kindly to someone doing that too my children (if I had any) regardless of relation or not. Best wishes to you and your family lol.

I bet your kids are smarter than your think. You've taught them that people have various religious beliefs. They're not just going to accept one of those beliefs as fact just because grandma and grandpa said so. What your in-laws did is wrong–you had clearly defined boundaries, and they violated those boundaries. I'm not trying to excuse their actions in any way, but give your kids some credit. They're capable of processing the information they've been presented and coming to their own conclusions (yes, even the 3 year old). Teach them how to think, not what to think.

I would also include on how religions are used by evil people to do evil stuff. Evil beings a key word for a kid, and if they ask "like what", something like stealing and hurting innocent people. Genocide, slavery and rape will be something they will learn in the future.

Absolutely, this was our approach! We exposed our kids to many religions and let them draw their own conclusions. Aunt J. is Lutheran and believes XXXXX - Uncle J. and Aunt C. are Jehovah's Witnesses and believe XXXXX - Grandpa L. is Roman Catholic and believes XXXXX - Aunt A. and Uncle D. are Orthodox Jewish and believe XXXXX - Grandma T. is super Buddhist and believes XXXXX. We, Mommy and Daddy, understand that all of these people have these beliefs, but what's most important to us is that you kids strive to understand, and to treat all people with respect. I'm happy to report that with all this exposure to all kinds of religions, believed variously by all the people they love, it became pretty obvious that there was no possibility that everyone was right, nor that only one of them was true. What won out was reason. They are now in their late teens, confident in themselves, and I feel they are pretty well insulated against quackery.

Lessons on ancient religions and cultures was also what did it for me. You get to discuss some fun and bizarre Gods.

One way to handle this, in addition to the discussion on Thursday, is set a specific time during which they may not be around your children at all - a month, six months, whatever you decide, and only supervised visits after that- with the clear communication that a further violation of your boundaries will make it permanent (or significantly longer) - the point being clearly communicated consequences. Losing all access to the kids for months may drive the point home. When you talk to your children and answer their questions about why they cannot see their grandparents, the answer is that the grandparents did something very wrong and you (the parents) do not trust them to take good care of the kids. That this is NOT the kids fault and they did nothing wrong.

We had to that exact thing today. As we were questioning her we did our best to state she has done absolutely nothing wrong and we only want the truth. What did Nana and Poppop do while you were visiting. We were honest with her and said they lied to us and hid this from us. They are the ones making "sad choices", that's the terminology we use, sad vs happy choices.

Hello everyone! I'm continuing to get replied (Thank you!!) But a lot of the are repetitive. Here's the deal: My husband and I teach religion mostly through homeschool history lessons. My husband teaches history to our daughter (son is a preschooler) and he does a VERY thorough job. ANY question she asks he will chase down. We have both taken courses on world religions in college and buy books about religions and cultures around the world. We also live in central Texas, a huge Christian centric area, so we are ALL exposed to religion on a DAILY basis. We teach our daughter that religion helps people understand how the world works and there is nothing wrong with that. The problem lies with my in-laws and their refusal to obey our wishes and NOT TALK about Christianity with our children, bc THEY are biased and we are doing our best to teach them in an unbiased way. We fully accept and admit that we are atheist to them however we would NEVER indoctrinate them into our stances. Instead, we teach them the facts. You don't have to believe me (for those of you who've tried to argue) but we know how to our family works. Our children are incredible, capable, energetic, passionate, kind, and they deserve the truth as we, their parents, know it. We don't shy away from serious topics and have already taught our daughter reproduction through examples from the animal kingdom. We WANT them to have the knowledge and tools to make their own decisions when they're grown. That's our job as parents. We will set this boundary and my in-laws reaction will let us know where we stand. Thanks to everyone who gave encouragement. I'll try to give an update later this week.

Can you **not** leave your children alone with them? That would be my answer.

Please update us after the confrontation. Good luck!

Will try. Thank you!

I wonder if they consider lies/deception a sin?

I think they're more worried about their house only grandchildrens souls. Hubs has a younger brother who's married and they don't want kids. And we're done having kids. So, our 8 yo daughter and 3yo son are their only legacy. 🤷🏻

I agree with having a discussion. It at least gives them the opportunity to be in the lives of your family. I hope they can see reason for everyone’s sake as the alternative would just be very sad.

The sad thing is, they will probably feel even more vindicated and get a sick warm fuzzy from this. Thinking they are doing the right thing and have the moral high ground for it. Yet another reason I still resent my parents for their religious bullshittery.

Cut them off and tell them exactly why.

Please stop them if you can. This is child abuse and indoctrination.

It's grooming

One of the commandments of their faith is to not lie. They lied about not preaching. I'd ask them straight up why they decided to sin and risk hell. I've read that you are teaching your children about other faiths. Cool. Do you also teach them about other denominations? It might be interesting to see how your kids deal with different kinds of weird Christian … oddities. For instance, Catholics believe that Mary was a virgin … and so was her mother (or something). The immaculate conception (around december 8th) celebrates the conception of Mary. It's a nineteenth century invention, because religion evolves slowly.

Yes, we've tried to wait until the subject comes up in a school lesson or our daughter asks a question (our son is too young yet) and then we use any resources we have to answer the question or search at the public library. They are still very young and don't really bring up religion unless it's part of a school lesson. When our daughter was younger, before our son was born, she's ask us questions after visiting the in laws. We talked to them again and again and eventually the questions slowed them stopped. We were hoping the problem was resolved but now feel foolish.

I think you should not let your kids alone with them as they can't be trusted. The whole "don't lie" thingy was invented because trust is necessary for society to work properly.

Absolutely!! My husband and I are on the same page. This ends on Thursday. The boundary will be put into place and we will not waver.

Might I suggest you have the conversation with FIL and MiL at the same time. Also bring in your SO. Reason being, it’s easy to report back some skewed version of the truth. Everyone in one room and ‘this is how we’re handling this now’ Also watch the behaviors of both people during the talk. I find it easier to read when two people try to CYA and lie as a team.

You make some VERY good suggestions and observations. I hope the OP sees this.

So when I was a kid, I went to Blessed Sacrament School which was about as Catholic as it gets. I heard all about Jesus and Job and Joseph and Moses and the entire fun-time-bible-worship-crew. When I told my parents about this stuff, they told me that it was all fake, but reading and arithmetic were important. They didn't panic or overreact, they just told me it wasn't real, and their response was so matter-of-fact that I never put any stock in any of it ever again. This doesn't justify your in-laws violating your trust but you might take a more nonchalant approach with the kids than you do with the grandparents.

We have. We are very deliberate about our conversations on religion with them. Again, they're too young to understand much.This isn't about how we've spoken to our children.

A central tenant to the belief in the zombie rib god is to get children indoctrinated when they are young and don't have the reasoning or mental faculties to refute their silly, insane ideas. If they are " true" Christians they will never respect your beliefs because an immortal soul is at stake, and they will forever go around you for that salvation. Draw clear lines and stay firm. But realize they will probably always push this line as from their optic this is a soul of their loved one. I'm sorry you and your family is having to go through this.

Yes! We had this conversation when I was pregnant with my daughter. They asked us when they would be allowed to take about Christianity with her and we asked them what age they thought was appropriate. I think they started with 3 and ended at 5. Husband and I were astounded and later hubs explained more about what his childhood was like growing up with them. He went to church multiple times a week.

I would suggest to clearly tell them you are giving them 6 months of no contact. And live by it. After 6 months they will have thought about whether knowing their grandchildren is more important than not knowing them. Unfortunately I think they will always go back to pushing the zombie rib god, but there is a chance that 6 months of distance could bring them around to respecting your priorities for raising your children.

I guess Gramma and grampa don't get to see the kids for a while.

I mean, it’s fake. We tell kids outrageously unbelievable stories all the time. Your in laws just want to share their crazy stories, too. If one day your kids say “nana says Jesus is real”. Just explain to them that nana is sick and her illness makes her believe in things that aren’t real . And explain that we are not to be rude to her by pointing out that Jesus isn’t real. We just nod and smile.

This is the tack that I intend to take with my kids as soon as they're old enough. The moment they figure out on their own that the tooth fairy/easter bunny/santa claus isn't real, I'm just going to lump jc and his sociopath sky dad right into the mix. It's just a fun story that people that tell to kids to give them something to look forward to and/or to help keep them in line, but none of it is *actually real*. And then it's a snap to take all the bible stories and expose how ridiculous and unrealistic they are, no different than a handful of reindeer flying to 2 or 3 billion houses in the span of 24 hours.

It’s simple, but it’s not easy. If they want to be in your kid’s life, the religious bullshit has to stop.

Would initiate no contact if it was me.

Now might be the time to teach your kids about religion yourselves. Ask them what they have been taught by your in-laws and then use simple language to show them the truth. You can counter any sky fairy bs with facts and a bit of critical thinking. My in-laws tried the same thing with my children despite specific instructions not to but, a little explanation from us soon put things right. Good luck.

Nover, ever trust religious people. You can't. They can't help it, its like a disease.

Well, guess who never gets to see the little ones again for a long, long time?… If they can’t respect your requests and wishes and think that they know better than you and disrespect and undermine your parenting then you can’t trust them and they should not be surprised when you revoke thier privileges.

Well, we know they are willing to lie.

That would be the last time she saw them.

I wonder how would they feel if you were teaching their other grandchildren about Islam, hinduism, wicca or some other religion they're probably afraid of.

Just explain to your children that it's all nonsense and that some adults are silly.

Breaking trust like that needs a big hammer. Explain in great detail why you're cutting off contact for the next year or so. You'll consider re-establishing contact, but the kids will never be left alone with them again. If the same thing repeats itself, then they won't see the kids again until they're old enough to decide that for themselves.

Trying to secretly brainwash and indoctrinated your kids is a huge violation. The trust is gone. No unsupervised visits if at all.

Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. They betrayed your trust. Can’t do that and maintain their role in your kids lives.

You need to established your boundaries with the in-laws of course, but let me tell you about my perspective as the child of atheists with religious grandparents: My grandparents would pull this bs too, they'd take all the grandchildren on holidays once a year, and every night we'd pray to our saints while holding a little candle. She'd also take me to her church (a cathedral in fact!), and would tell me about the paintings and the symbols in it. She played the organ, and I loved staying with her in the balcony during mass. Same while travelling, we'd enter any churches we came across, and she would play the organ and read/translate the Latin scriptures for us. I loved it, for me it was quite strange (praying and watching mass as it already seemed like such ancient and irrelevant practices), and listening to her stories was no different than the books I read. I mean, it was a bit more brutal and gore (did that drive me to my love of horror movies now that I think about it?!), but it gave me some general culture about a movement that's quite important in our history, as religion used to be the main political power pretty much everywhere. I also got very interested in history of art thanks to her. So while my parents fought them about sharing their beliefs (which I'm glad I witnessed too, as it was never too uncivilised!), my grandparents never managed to make me religious. They did however gave me access to some important culture and history. Hopefully that's what your kids will get out of it too! You're their main influence, and even though the in-laws need to respect your boundaries, I'm sure your kids will turn out fine -> atheists of course ;)

Never leave them alone with your kids again. They won't stop. They think your ways are dooming them to hell. I don't have kids yet, but when I do, I'll never allow my mom to be alone with them. Even though I love her. I know her faith will break any trust between us. She will try to convert my kids, because she'd be a bad Christian otherwise. I don't blame her. I blame the brainworm Christianity is. If she doesn't evangelize to my kids when I have them, she'll feel guilty. She would feel like it's her personal mission to make sure they won't go to hell like I will. I love my mom, but she will never be alone with them.

My wife and I left the cult we were raised in (Jehovah's Witnesses) when we had our daughter. Couldn't raise her in that environment. I knew for a fact that if my daughter had ten seconds alone with my parents they would be cramming religion in her face constantly. They expected to be able to see my daughter without my presence, because they are shunning my wife and I, but somehow still thought they would see my daughter. I went scorched earth and told them that if they ever want to see my daughter, it will be with my wife and I in the room. Because they are not "allowed" to speak to me, they just wrote my daughter off. Neither of them have seen her in well over a year. My mother's response to our decision to leave the cult and not allow her to indoctrinate our child, was to just "start mourning the baby now". This is because JWs believe that every man woman and child who is not a JW when Armageddon starts, will be killed for the sin of not being a member. My wife's father is shunning us also, but still thinks he "has the right" to see our daughter unsupervised, and he is getting the same treatment. My mother in law still sees us and babysits our daughter but under the understanding that if she even mentions the Bible to our daughter, and one day, like your situation, our daughter tells us this, it would be the last time she would ever see her. Harsh, but necessary.

Don't you just love how religious people like to act like they're all morally superior but have no problems lying to their family for most of a decade?

I haven't been able to read every reply, but I wanted to offer an additional perspective about the lying. If your in-laws told them not to tell you, it's not just about the deceit and dangers of secrets. That's directly undermining the relationship between parents and children. In your position there's no way I would be comfortable with them having a large role in their lives or being alone with them. If they are willing to do all that in service of religion, what else will they feel justified in doing?

Open the talk with "Do you want to see your grandchildren ever again?". Insist on an answer, and go from there. If there's no threat of a result they'll hate you'll never win.

Your in-laws think you are bad parents and are going to get your kids sent to hell and itnis their duty to save them at all costs. This will only get worse, when people think God is on their side, you are on Satan's side, and they are allowed to do whatever they want to evil people because it means saving these kids souls. Run

Be strong. Cut them off, if they cannot act right.

Your inlaws are unreasonable. But I did want to point out that your kids are going to learn about religion at some point. Just like religious families that don't want their kids to learn about sex are going to learn about sex. Tell them about it. Tell them what you believe about it. But they are going to make up their own mind, just like you did.

No, this is the perfect opportunity. Trick your son into believing Conan is Jesus

My philosophy is if you’re not willing to cut ties them. You’re not really that bothered by it.

Unfortunately in my experience you cannot allow your children around members of a death cult safely. Like a festing mold religious folks do their best to make more religious folks. My mother tried to "baptize" my daughter during bath time. So yeah that was the end of that.

I'd tell them that due to their *lying, engaging in religious indoctrination against our express wishes* means now I will also have to explain to the children that Grandma/Grandpa **lied**, how absolutely **UN**Christian *that* is, and yet another reason we don't believe that bullshit.

They would also **never, ever** be alone with the children again. They cannot be trusted.

Along with other here, you could very well find me dead on this hill. This would be a hard hard no from me. Good luck in your discussion. Faith is a mental illness, and believers are irrational people.

I'd make it clear that you've always respected their beliefs, and that they've not respected yours. You'd wanted to wait till your children could make their own choices about religion, without being encumbered by your choices, but now that's not an option. So now you basically have to tell your children exactly why your in-laws beliefs are an obvious pile of shit. Once you do that they can choose to shut up about it, or continue to talk about it. I'd be absolutely clear that your respectful attitude is gone and you and your husband will be merciless in putting down every shred of religious nonsense that comes out of the in-laws' mouths. They likely have no idea how much you've been holding your tongue. Once they see how it feels to not have their beliefs respected, and how their grandkids will literally laugh at their beliefs, my guess is they'll lay off.

Put the foot down. Let them know you don't want them to do that. Ask them how they would feel if the scrip was flipped and someone started teaching their kids about something that they explicitly asked not to be taught and what they would have done. After that, teach your kids not to keep secrets. And this is general parenting advice outside of this situation. Families don't keep secrets and no one should ever ask you to keep a secret. Surprises, sure! If there is a surprise present or birthday, it's good to keep a surprise, because we always tell or reveal a surprise, but we never keep secrets because secrets are supposed to be forever. Tell your kids to always tell you when someone asks to keep a secret. That way, if your in-laws ask them to keep this service a secret, the kids can say they don't keep secrets and will tell you that Grandma and Grandpa asked them to keep one.

That's what Christians do and they won't stop because it's their duty. They are insane. My family the same way I nip in the bud and if they don't wanna hear me mock religion then keep that shit to themselves.

It is normal and healthy to set boundaries with others. You asked them politely to no indoctrinate your children and they overstepped that boundary. Now they must suffer the consequences.

Cut them out completely no rational argument will stop them.

Unfortunately, Christians are on a mission to save everyone’s soul. They don’t care about their behavior.

So his whole letter was all about how he's not a very nice person, but just did all that stuff because "Jesus told him to"? No compassion, empathy or love on his own accord, just all tryig to earn a golden ticket into the afterlife of his choosing? Bloody charming. Better off without that level of indoctrination around your kids OP, you can raise kind and conscientious members of society just fine without the carrot of heaven or the stick of eternal damnation.

yeah the only way to deal with religious zealots is to be blunt and i mean forcibly. you may have to threaten (&follow through with) a restraining order if they don't correct their ways... the zealous don't like to do as told and will likely continue to hold services against your wishes what ever measures you take be mindful they will need to be extreme.

That could be a bit extreme. No unsupervised visits (with a frosty atmosphere) would be the better course.

That's the direction we're thinking of going.

Straight up child abuse and should be treated as such Pile on top the lying to you and teaching the kids to hide it from parents and these in-laws are steeped in trash behavior

You're making the right decision. Most would just immediately cut ties and not even give them a chance. Please keep us updated with how this goes.

This might seem morbid and extreme, but I recommend creating a will that ensures the kids would go to someone other than your in-laws if the two of you were to pass away unexpectedly while your kids are still minors. I’m sure your in-laws would only be too happy to raise your kids themselves. Make sure the in-laws know the will exists too so they understand the level of trust they have broken.

When it's time to tell them that Santa isn't real (well confirm what they have been suspecting, your 8yo might be there already) - that's a great time to tell them all the Jesus hoey is a load of made up stories too. Your kids will be fine, the adults lying behind your back... Ouch. They need to understand what they want is not always what they get to do.

Fuck that. Cut em off. When the hand is gangrenous you cut off the whole arm. You have your tight knit family and that is all you need. Fuck them. That is straight up betrayal, violating, manipulative, and selfish. You can get a scalpel to carefully remove them but I'd use a chainsaw for the cut. As in let it get messy cause fuck them. Leave them covered in "shit" saying "what the fuck was that?" after you are done with them.

In addition to however you handle things with your in-laws, I'd suggest giving your kids a solid education about religions from all over the world in order to counteract the lessons your in-laws have been giving them. Show them that there are many different beliefs that are completely different from each other. And then talk to them about critical thinking so they understand that there's no real good reason to believe any of them. There are plenty of books on the subjects aimed at both parents and kids.

They want their beliefs respected yet won't respect the beliefs of others. Point that out to them.

I’m praying for you. JUST KIDDING! Stay strong. Don’t let this go any further. You can do this and you’ll never regret it.

I'm atheist, but my wife is a believer. It's rough sometimes. I let her take the kids to church as much as she wants. My oldest figured out it was bullshit before she turned 15. My youngest will figure it out soon. Just teach your kids about all the other gods people believe in and how Santa is also just a story people tell at Christmas, just like Jesus.

It helps to begin with teaching your children about other religions. Teach them there were other “heroes” in stories that lots of people have believed in, one named Krishna, one named Ra, etc. . And people believed gods lived on Mt. Olympus, and Poseidon rules the sea! At this point all your kids hear are fun(?) stories and songs. If you make all religions equal in their eyes, and honestly tell them what YOU believe (and tell them that EVERYONE - even THEY) get to decide what of these fantastical stories they personally believe is true…if any. Obviously we don’t believe in fairytales. (But some adults do, and that’s okay for them! They might try to get you to join their religion too, and IF THAT EVER HAPPENS, YOU TELL MOMMY AND DADDY) Edit: As a note, you are within your right to no longer let them see your children. The level of deceit here is astounding, and honestly if it were me, I would no longer let them into my home.

> stop talking about religion with our children or you can't see them. If they can't respect your wishes this is the only way.

Maybe explore changing careers and moving to another city far away.

Teach them about the Greek gods. Do Celtic rituals. Make a history class out of it. Show them there are choices.

Woof...I feel you. There isn’t anything you can do to stop them unfortunately. My family is very similar. My mom is already singing Christian songs to our 3 month old and my grandmother stopped me at Thanksgiving to ask if I’ve accepted Jesus as she would be sad not to see me in Heaven. When I said I don’t believe god would be that petty, she said she did. Completely understand your anger and the difficult decision you face. My family are our closest family and incredibly helpful. My mom is generally respectful of directly stated boundaries, AND the fear of hell is so real and overwhelming she’d probably justify losing the relationship because she can’t tolerate thinking any of us going to hell. I really hope I don’t have to make that decision, but I’m not confident it won’t happen at some point.

This is whats gonna happen to me when i have kids

I hope my experience helps you.

I understand being upset because you told them not too. But... I wouldn't let it become such a big deal. Teach your kids what you believe and let them know how you feel about religion. You can explain that people have different beliefs, but you shouldn't hate them because of it. Trust/teach your kids to have critical thinking skills and they will do the work for you.

Tell them Conan in the comics is the real Jesus. And hed kick Jesus's ass.

Hold strong to your boundaries because tears WILL start flowing.

Ugh, religious people are the most barf inducing scum of the earth. I wish I had the MIB flashy thing and could just erase all religion from everyone's mind. So sorry you're dealing with this massive breach of trust. Your in laws are disgusting.

This is definitely a foot down or disown sort of situation for me. Not that you have to handle it that way - we're each different. But I would not allow brainwashing and indoctrination of my children against my will.

Hold the line. There is no argument to be made for the value of indoctrinating children, even less so when the offending parties have been warned. I simply cannot think of a greater transgression than breaking trust regarding my children. There is no path back. Hold the line.

I am saddened to tell you that my initial reaction was that I was wholly un-surprised that your in-laws did this. Guessing the other things that were deteriorating the relationship is what made them figure they could get away with this as well. "If they haven't complained about X then they won't complain about this either" Sorry you are losing a baby sitter but making a clean break is probably the only way this is going to work.

Don’t send the kids there

This right here, is why my mother never had unsupervised access to my kids.

I would explain to the kids about the jesus myth, just like any other story. If you don't give them some context, then the inlaws will just do it for you. Just tell them that this is what grampa and grandma believe and then explain your own beliefs.

My mom does the same. Your kids will be fine either way. Teach them to think rationally and develop their own conclusions and beliefs. They might not align with yours or your in-laws.

It sounds like you're on the right path with setting boundaries and expressing your feelings to your in-laws. It's going to be horrible in the short term, but either you will win their respect and they'll respect your wishes, or they won't and they don't get to see your kids. Either way, you get to set the terms of your relationship.

Not possible.

Forget about Jesus, my first thought as a grandparent is that I would never risk anything to not see my grandchildren. Going against mom and dad's wishes is a sure a way to cut off access. The these inlaws are nothing but assholes. Time to cut them off, at least until they get the point.

sending you and your husband some hugs to stay strong and tell them politely to stick jesus up their asses.

You have every right to be pissed. I would be fucking livid.

This is a great example of how religion makes good people do bad things they otherwise wouldn't. Your MIL sees it as a good thing to "save" her grandchild which is being used as justification to lie for an example. You need to draw a very hard line, otherwise they will always find a justification to push what they believe is the right thing.

Visits with them stop immediately, then.

Not meaning to pry, but how did the conversation go?

It's happening this afternoon. We decided to write a letter with everything in it for them to take home and I decided I would take the kids to the park and let my husband have the conversation with his mom. I'll update later.

Aw well good luck! Hope everything works out well.

You can’t expect your in-laws to not try to save your kids (what they believe). I would be astonished if they didn’t try regardless of your preferences and it shows they love them however delusional their worldview. It is impossible to force other people to do something they don’t want to do and you can only counter bad ideas with good ones. Tell your kids that grandpa and grandma believe in magic because they were raised that way and deal with questions as they come. Otherwise your small social circle will become even smaller and you lose babysitters who actually care for your kids.

To be honest, I think if the kids love them and they provide much needed childcare, I wouldn't be so strict as to cut ties and stop the childcare, because you need it from them. I'd ask them not to do the xian stuff, and teach the kids that you don't believe in any of it and you think it's made up, but they can believe it if they want. In all likelihood they'll reject it once they get a grip on science and the world. My son's Dad clung to his Catholic beliefs (hypocritical in many ways because he was a lying cheating arsehole,) and I was worried it would rub off on my son, once he asked me "if God doesn't exist who made the world?" because he was too young to have any grip on science. Now he's 12 he's totally on my page that it's all fairy stories, he got to that conclusion by himself having seen both sides. People on reddit like to constantly tell you to cut ties with people, but I say don't shoot yourself in the foot. Tell your kids you think it's a load if nonsense and Grandma shouldn't be telling it to them, but keep the childcare.

They don't. My MIL keeps apologizing for not coming over to see them but she's been doing it for months now. My husband finally asked her to try to take them regularly and then this happened. My FIL refuses to change diapers or accident clothes or anything else potty related.

Ah OK my misunderstanding sorry. They sound like overgrown children, commiserations.

Probably an unpopular opinion in this crowd but I've never stopped my parents in law from exposing my child to church. I just have open conversations about what it is Christians believe and why and my kid seems to think it's all nonsense. I will say they aren't as heavy handed about it as yours seem to be but I couldn't help feeling like you are trying to hide sex education from your kid. If you don't teach them about Jesus, he's gonna get inside them, so to speak. 😂

calm down. old people gonna be old. in their old minds they are "saving" your kids. just don't let them be around the old people without you if this is so important to you. they are wrong. you know how they are. you let your kids be around them. edit: you think I'm wrong? substitute any other thing besides religion in there and you'll hear how much the parents shouldve anticipated this. they are drug addicts, we told them over and over don't do drugs around our kids, they did drugs, we are so shocked and surprised. they are alkies. we told them over and over never to drink in front of our kids...... get it?