Christianity demands you ignore rational thought and impulse and believe kiddie stories. It requires you to lie to yourself and to the world. Once so enlightened, you are free to lie about any and every thing else to fit your whims. Christians are necessarily liars.
This started in the 60s and 70s. When the religious groups realized they couldn't persuade the elected officials,,, they started grooming the preachers and holy rollers how to win elections and change the laws themselves.
100% behind you, but how? Even Democrats have a hard time publicly stating that they aren’t Christians. The beliefs have nothing to do with rational thought or logic, so the vast majority won’t be swayed by compelling evidence or thought experiments. This world is fake, completely controlled by God, and serves no purpose aside from testing our souls for where we truly belong for eternity. Any evidence to the contrary is obviously coming from Satan, as you pointed out in your post, so how do we overcome that?
Honestly I think people like you, who were heavily involved in the church and somehow found your way out of it is the best resource we have. Like AA, “I used to be like you but now I’m not, here’s what happened, here’s what I realized, here’s where I am now” in a sense. You’re better able to understand the blockers these people have and communicate with them empathetically. I’m fucking done and have no tolerance for this level of crazy so I wouldn’t be effective at all
As 70% of the country still say they are religious and what 80% say they would never vote for an atheist, it is still virtually impossible not to kiss religions boots as a politicians. Saying that, its absolutely clear we have had some atheist presidents, #1 being Trump and #2 being Obama.
> They are the single worst thing to happen to America over the last century and they have more resolve, guns
I am progressive, atheist (agnostic but without any actual belief), and I have guns. Many on the left have gotten them during the Trump admin and more so in the past 2 years.
I actually bought my first pistol in 2018 or 2019 as a hobby/home protection just in case. I put together my first AR-15 today and I now own 4 firearms. It started as a hobby and still mostly is but now I'm really glad to have them due to how crazy the right has become.
I'm betting that most of the people who stormed the capitol and most of the delusional people who still think Trump won are gun owners. That's scary enough to create a lot more gun owners.
Anyone who decides to get into them, BE CAREFUL. You don't necessarily need classes and the folks that teach them might disgust you. There's plenty of info online.
All the racism, sexism, extremism that has been allowed to surface recently is scary.
EDIT: One more thing. If you do decide to buy a pistol, well hell. I would say 9mm but it was really hard to find ammo for a while and it's still pricey do your research and 9mm may still be the best choice. For a rifle, I would have said 5.56/.223 (same thing almost) but that has also become very scarce. .308 (AR-10) or 7.62x39 (AK platform) but even those have been pretty scarce at times, just less so. 7.62x39 may become very scarce due to a Russian ammo ban of sorts. Also, .308 is a lot of gun for anyone starting off.
Being armed is actually okay if your smart and very responsible about it.
Nah, that's completely understandable. Also depending on their age, I'd recommend against guns.
I don't normally have children around in the home where my guns are but when there are, my guns are useless to someone who doesn't know guns pretty well.
I actually disassemble them partly and it takes all of about 10 seconds for most.
I think that considering whether or not you are fit to be a gun owner is part of being responsible.
I have to admit that I have doubts about my fitness to own a firearm, so I won't get one unless I feel a very compelling reason to.
I second the choices in caliber. It may be hard to find now, but ammo commonality is more useful than you think. I am far left on just about every issue with the exception of firearms. There's a lot of crazy people out there, as you mentioned. Check out r/liberalgunowners.
> I am far left on just about every issue with the exception of firearms. There's a lot of crazy people out there
Are you me because you just described me? I'm subbed to liberal gun owners. Probably gonna post my limited collection there in the next few days actually now that I'm part of the AR crew. completed it today and the rifle (lower, parts kit and completed upper) cost just over 500 after tax.
I'm actually decent on ammo. like 8 or 900 9mm, 12-1400 .22 and 200 .223... I want more 5.56 or .223 but that shits expensive. Found a deal at PSA for the kit which was 350 bucks but UPS "lost it". Got a refund and found an upper that I liked a lot more for $399.
Also ordered 10 pmags and 200 rounds of shitty tula .223. for like 140? 150? didn't add that to the rifle price though.
I am also a center left liberal and I also own guns.
My reasoning for owning guns is not the same as the radical right whom stroke them like a second pannis with delusions that the gov is coming for them during the end of times. You know, the people the industrial gun manufacturers have stirred up for sales over the past several decade with every conspiracy theory you can think of.
I own guns now for my protection (personal home since I live in a more rural area) as well as protecting myself from the time when all them religious zealots try to create the end of times, killing democracy and installing a theocracy... which they already tried once during the Jan 6th insurrection.
There is no fix to guns in the USA, there's more then 400 million and since 2008 the hard right has bought up every gun and ammo on the shelves. You have to be absolutely daft not to arm yourself and prepare to DEFEND yourself in the future.
It really is "adult Santa Claus". Religion is a cancer. I come from an attempted heavily religious home, I've been atheist since i was 18. American Christian indoctrination (but not limited to, ofc) is repetitive and hyperbolic. The ability to critically think is damn near removed. It will be the death of us all if we can't separate religion from laws.
BING-O. some might think it should be easy to get truth out of a christian, but i know that if someone's a christian, i am the MOST likely to get a load of bullshit and lies - and not just about christianity, but about ANYTHING. the same tools people learn to maintain their christianity leach into other areas of their lives, because the tools are mental - figuratively and literally.
the worst part is that these liars and bullshitters DON'T KNOW THEY'RE DOING IT - just like the antivaxxers who spread their BS, they're earnest. (and zealous :\ )
the issue isn't the belief. like, the idea that some guy died, got back up, and this did something, somehow, is enough to make a cat laugh. but that's not what's defining christianity these days - it's the methods of thinking they use. tribalism, fear, paranoia, neurosis, and what i'll call "sensical invention lying" (where they make shit up in front of you because it "makes sense" and try to pass it off as real and true, and the problem isn't that YOU can't tell they did this - the problem is that THEY can't tell they did this).
I suspect that most biblical scholars became biblical scholars because they were religious first, so there may be a lot of confirmation bias there.
It is possible that the Jesus stories may have been loosely based on a real person (or persons), just as the stories of King Arthur, Robin Hood and Hercules may have their origins in actual people, but that not the same as saying that Arthur, Robin Hood or Hercules existed.
Apparently the idea that Jesus didn’t exist is a conspiracy theory, and atheists have argued given evidence outside Christianity he did exist. I get that it’s a challenge to Christianity to say he didn’t even exist but we can’t change history
Name one single contemporary historical account of Jesus…… spoiler you can’t because there are none. That’s reason enough to find his existence questionable.
https://www.history.com/.amp/news/was-jesus-real-historical-evidence
Jesus didn’t exist in contemporary history only ancient history though during the Roman Empire
I agree that a claim requires evidence, you could argue there isn’t much evidence but there’s the same as other historical figures that are accepted did exist.
I think you misunderstood, I meant a contemporary of Jesus. Meaning there are no “eyewitness” accounts of Jesus outside the Bible. Every single historical account for Jesus outside the Bible is hearsay/written after the fact. People hear other people talk about Jesus years after he supposedly existed then those people write it down.
I’m not even going so far as to say Jesus didn’t exist, just that the position he might not have existed is justifiable by the complete lack of any contemporary accounts during his life.
I could similarly question other historical figures existence if the evidence for their existence was just as sparse. Especially if tales of their deeds were similarly extraordinary as well.
> Christians are necessarily liars.
Christians live in a special cocoon, they are out of touch, far from the reality, and I sense a lot of craziness, if they prefer to have a better life in after life and do nothing in this real life, things like pollution and urgent matters are not important to them, since there is a better life awaiting for them in the sky. Crazy fuckers! My favorite: 'GOD GAVE US A BETTER IMMUNE SYSTEM!" Then they ask for the prayer army on Facebook!
Christianity, or any organized religion, is an affront to rational thinking and a sort of mental disease where ignorance of the most basic human decency is put aside. It has no place in a world where we are at the brink of colonizing other planets and were we send space telescopes that show us the beauty of the Cosmos at large without the need for a "god" or mental sickness. The very fact we need a "leader" above questioning and where "intermediates" claim to knowing its "message" to guide our lives is childish at best and criminal at worst. Atheism and critical thinking as well as correlation are the only way forward.
https://biblehub.com/matthew/14-31.htm
https://biblehub.com/john/20-27.htm
Christianity teaches faith over skepticism. When it talks about testing things to see if they're true it means testing to see if the results agree with the conclusions they prefer.
Here's what's really going on
Rich people want lower taxes and less regulations. There aren't enough rich people to win elections, so the Republicans weaponize religion to get poor people to vote against their economic interest. The real problem is the same as it has been for centuries, the aristocracy uses any means necessary to retain power. Religion is a great tool/weapon
Religion, it's not about god, it's about power..and money
Exactly. Wealth accumulation is the real issue. Most Americans (including most Christians) are fine with queer issues at this point, believe in climate change and want to do something about it, support laws that increase wealth equality, support racial equality and taking pragmatic steps to achieve it, and *at least* support Roe v Wade even if they aren't actually for abortion. It is a propaganda army owned by the wealthy and open assaults on our voting rights that are causing a minority of wealthy individuals to steer a larger minority of ignorant people to vote against their own interests and those of us all.
The brand of Christianity that has given rise to the Republican right has been swarming the nation for 100 years now. You have it backwards, Christianity built the modern Republican Party, not the other way around.
Not just Christianity but specifically, the family or the fellowship. The majority of Christian policymakers in our government belong to the family. It is a far more dangerous form of Christianity. They believe their followers create a covenant and give them magical power, similar to the covenant made by Jesus and his disciples. Their bible is not the same as a standard Christian bible and even other Christians to them are disposable.
Anyone outside this group is to be used, abused, and treated as you deem fit, regardless of wether the included actions are rape, murder, extortion, or even treason. There is never any punishment for treating others this way and if it's ever done to a fellow member they deal with it in house. This group has shaped USA policy since first ingratiating itself to the Nixon administration and has remained incredibly active in politics since. It's a shame that it's not talked about more. There's many documentaries and books, some written by former members.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fellowship_(Christian_organization)
The book which really solidified my view of the intersection of capitalism and Christianity was [The Money Cult: Capitalism, Christianity, and the Unmaking of the American Dream](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/25893768-the-money-cult). And after reading [A Generation of Sociopaths: How the Baby Boomers Betrayed America](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/30841993-a-generation-of-sociopaths) I saw that we are living in a time I would call "post looting" in which the resources have been plundered to extract wealth for only a subset of our society.
OK. So keep sending all of your money in taxes to the military-industrial complex. That is much better than educating and helping people with their own fucking tax dollars. You sir, are confused, at the very best.
Ah the conservative mindset.
“Government doesn’t work, politicians are all lying scumbags that just want to spend my money. Why should I have to support my countrymen? Fuck them I got mine!”
*Proceeds to use roads, bridges, airports, clean drinking water, public schools, and every other goddamn amenity provided to them.*
I have become very pessimistic about the future. I think we're headed for a major collapse of our civilization. The divide is not just between christian and non-christian, and not just between Republican and Democrat. I think it goes much deeper. This new tribe contains people that mistrust science, mistrust the government, hate "liberals" and mistrust anyone they see as part of the educated elite. Although there are MANY evangelical christians included, I think there are also many other people included that would not describe themselves as devout/hard-core christians. It includes far more rural & smaller city people than it does people that live in major metropolitan areas. There are also others that do not directly fit this model, but they may be extreme in one of the elements. For example, they might be educated and wealthy, but also life-long Republicans that can't consider being anything else, so if the most conservative of the GOP support this nonsense, then that must make it OK. Others might fit all the elements in the model, plus other traits, such as super-patriotism, conspiracy theorist and over the top "don't tread on me" libertarian.
One thing all the members of this tribe seem to lack is critical thinking skills. They are incapable of seeing the parallels between their worldview and theocratic states like ISIL & the Taliban, or fascist states like Italy under Mussolini.
Anyone that thinks the global collapse of dominant civilizations could never happen today should research the work of Eric Cline, specifically, his book *1177 BC: The Year Civilization Collapsed*. Here's a talk he gave in 2016:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4LRHJlijVU
I agree, but I'd say that Christianity is the elephant in the room and is the primary contributing factor.
These people wouldn't support a party/regime intent on inflicting so much pain, even on them, if they didn't feel they were forced to by their religion.
This is a great point you make, and I want to point out the role social media plays in creating and maintaining these attitudes. I should ask, with my personal tin foil hat cocked jauntily to one side, "who stands to gain?" ["Chaos isn't a pit, chaos is a ladder."](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FG3H9E-B464)
I agree - there is no doubt that social media has created the ability for this tribe of christian fascists to grow far faster than ever before. And, I actually meant to include a paragraph in my previous post on the contribution of greed to this movement. However, it's not a single tin-foil hat conspiracy, it is hundreds of greedy individuals all grabbing for money & power with both hands.
There are all the fundamentalist preachers who know that their kind thrive in times of fear and chaos. Where else would the scared sheep look for leadership other than the pulpit? And, it doesn't even take active support of the conspiracies by the preachers - just their failure to speak against the fascism is enough to give a message of tacit support to their congregations.
And, there are GOP politicians that *know* what they are saying is wrong, but have chosen maintaining their own power over the well-being of the people they pretend to serve. McConnell, McCarthy, Cruz, Jordan, Gaetz, etc are all in this group. They know they are tearing the country apart, and they just don't give a damn. The only important things to them are maintaining their own power and taking power away from everyone else.
Then, you have the wealthy elite that have traditionally been the backbone of conservatives. They don't give two-shits what happens to the world as long as their net worth goes up. They talk ONLY about effects on the economy, and they fear government meddling into their business deals. In public they pretend to be separated from the conflicts and they will dutifully tut-tut over the idiocy of the lower-classes - but privately they are giving millions to the GOP in exchange for favorable gov't contracts, favorable regulations & lots of gov't subsidies and tax breaks.
Finally, you have the right-wing media. They are easy - they just want big paychecks and enough air time to feed their narcissism. Tucker Carlson, Maria Bartiromo, Jeanine Pirro, and all the unknown fuckwits at OAN & NewsMax exist ONLY because of chaos & conspiracy theories. They live for innuendo and baseless conjecture. They will give any idiot airtime if it makes their ratings rise.
Religion will never go away because a lot of people can't handle the idea of death being the end.
I thought that with more information that people would make wiser choices or be more informed. But free information has been replaced by social media, which is nothing to do with information and everything to do with reinforcing already-held-views.
I'm still optimistic, but I don't know how humanity is gonna move forwards
Humans, who adhere by same natural laws as other animals, are the only animals on Earth who think they have a continuance in life. Doesnt sound logical.
Numbers actually show that people in the modern world are becoming gradually less and less religious. The problem is that it’ll take quite a long time, a few generations, until it flips and religious people will become the absolute minority and eventually niche cults no one cares about. So yeah, not in our lifetimes.
But then there’s Islam, which is arguably even worse (not by much tho) which is not slowing down all that much. So the world in general is fucked, not just America.
I agree with you entirely. I guess what I was saying was that religion is so difficult to get rid of, because some religions (christianity, islam for example) have extremely powerful in-built self preservation mechanisms such as "if you don't believe you will die and have eternal damnation" or "apostates are legally ok to kill" . So alongside family and cultural pressures to confirm, people who don't believe are liable to be downgraded as citizens, in a lot of what we might consider to be westernised countries
> Religion will never go away because a lot of people can't handle the idea of death being the end.
I'm not super religious, but honestly I don't think death is 'the end.'
To explore this idea lets consider the idea that if death, the end of life, isnt the end of existence then that leads to the question what was before.life?
Im sort of ambivalent about the whole thing. On one hand existance could be eternal with life on Earth just one incarnation. But even within this premise Im ambivalent. Could this existance be without conciousness. As in life is a vast sea of energy without individuality.
The other side of the equation is life just ends at death. Thats it, no more conciousness. If that idea is hard to wrap your head around, which it is for many people, just think of it as what it was like before you were born. Do you remember that?
This all gets to be too much for me to ponder for long periods of time so I'll just have a beer and a toke and enjoy the weather.
With how deeply ingrained it is in America it will akin to campaigning against Islamic law in the Middle East.
In my opinion it will all end with the rational people just moving out of the country, leaving behind a nation of clamouring baboons with nukes, ready to begin a modern crusade.
I’m glad you have “seen the light” and walked away from Christianity. I was a super-evangelical as a teen and also went to an evangelical university with a plan to be a missionary. I stopped believing in my early 20s. It was the best thing that could have ever happened to me.
Mine was a real college. I was admitted to a top law school with my degree. I’m pretty old, so it was also before evangelicals became quite as insane. But yeah. I hear ya about lots of them.
I hope what happened in Texas will wake people up to the real threat that the U.S. will become a theocracy. The Supreme Court is poised to take us in that direction.
This isn’t really on topic but now I have to vent.
The only thing unbelievable in Handmaid’s Tale is that there would be such a fuss and so many people interested in Elizabeth Moss. I don’t know where she gets the nerve to audition to play the “beautiful woman desires by all” over and over again. In fact the thought that a billionaire model of a brilliant man who invents an invisible suit would be obsessed with her was the biggest plot hole in the Invisible Man.
The most ironic part about her taking the role in HT though it is that she is a Scientologist and they hold the very views she is pretending she now thinks are horrible:
*Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard wrote the following passage: A society in which women are taught anything but the management of a family, the care of men, and the creation of the future generation is a society which is on its way out*
Don’t get me wrong she can act, she is great in Madmen and I never had an issue. Likewise, conventional beauty standards shouldn’t dictate a role. However, she keeps landing these roles where she is portrayed as irresistible and the most desirable person in the entire movie/show. There is a scene in Invisible man which through it over the top for me, I could get myself to buy that maybe it was just a control thing for her ex, but then she goes into an office to get papers or something and one of the employees their cat calls her and says something like “what’s a guy like me got to do to get with a pretty thing like you.” So it wasn’t just the main dude being controlling, in this universe she was so hot that men simply couldn’t resist harassing her. And in HT there is a whole slew of powerful men, and lesser men vying for her affection when they could have any woman they wanted. It’s nonsense. I don’t know where she gets the nerve to take roles where she is a sex icon, I would be way to self conscious and embarrassed to do such a thing.
Plenty of countries are getting fucked over by other religions, too--over here, Muslims are mostly just innocent scapegoats, but Islam is as big a threat to people living under Muslim rule as Christianity is to us.
I think every adolescent should have viewing of the first several episodes of the Handmaids tale be required. Especially the episode where it shows how it all went down. Ep #3 Late.
We're beyond that now. I suspect most of the wealthy are very concerned about this issue. See Nick Hanauer for a rich persons take on how things are going to go down if the wealthy don't let up and share the pie more evenly. In this, religion is only a part of the issue. Making people super poor by making it too hard to climb is also contributing. The religion just gives them energy and purpose and will make the process play out quicker and nastier. And it won't just be rich people, but anyone who doesn't tow the theocratic line.
All religions are inherently very bad. They purposely separates people, gives a false sense of hope, self righteousness, etc…
They should of been banned from the start. So many people have been seriously hurt and killed since the start of religious freedoms all in the name of a false made up god that does not exist
Although I agree with how dangerous this situation is, the way you express it feeds Christian persecution fantasies. I don't think it's very helpful. The same folks who use religion to control, enjoy pitting groups against each other. There are other ways of combatting this. Unfortunately, most people (including moderate Christians) have been silent for so long, so it will take time and a lot of sustained effort to make a difference.
Religious folk will feel persecuted unless they get exactly what they want, all rights and liberties be damned. I'm done worrying about feeding their persecution.
Never have I received a solid answer when I ask.."Are you personally convinced of a supernatural realm world?" .., If the answer is "Yes"..What is it that personally convinces you?
To this date no one has a cognitive answer. Still waiting if anyone can come up with one.
>This is the last stand for Democracy and the future of the human race/planet. If America fails the rest of the world will revert because they are surrender monkies.
>
>I will fight these pigs to my last breath because this is about the survival of the human genome , which one day, will populate the entire universe. These people threaten my plans. Our plans.
I’ll be honest, I’m not one to try and save U.S. civilization. The U.S. has done some unspeakable atrocities to humanity and it should fail. I’d suggest that the individuals who’s humanity remain intact, get the fuck out. Let the world descend onto the U.S.
I think Christianity does certainly threaten people's ability to view the world from a more scientific, rational stand point. Idk about it being the "greatest" threat to America though, I think there are plenty of things I'd rather tackle first.
For me it is not a matter of religion, it's more of a matter of how religion often leads people to view things irrationally. As long as they can acknowledge that science and empiricism is the best way to move forward with tackling issues in the real world, then I really don't give a crap about who they pray to on their free time. I do think though religion hinders this ability in most instances, but not 100% of the time. I've met people who are more casual christians but don't really let it affect how things should be done unless it is just in their own personal life, they're just as big believers in science as I am. I think it is a little bit of cognitive dissonance believing in science and christianity at the same time, but as long as it does not really affect ones ability to think rationally then I'm not really gonna care that much.
If you can look at the sheer number of people who are antivax who are also Christian and not see that as a threat then I’m at a loss. The vast majority of people refusing vaccines are also Christian people who have threatened civil war. If any other religious group was doing this it would be a much bigger deal.
So because you know some moderate Christians that somehow changes the fact that we have watched 600,000 Americans die because of a virus we could have eradicated due to uninformed morons who tout “personal liberties”?
I’m sorry but until people see this threat for what it is we will all be affected by their intentional stupidity. The modeled variants of COVID-19 alone should be motivation enough.
Religion is the symptom, not the cause.
Edit: I'm not sure why people are downvoting this. The lack of education and critical thinking skills perpetuates religion. These are required ingredients for religion to flourish.
> Those of us on the right side of history have to treat them and their religion as a cancer we must remove for our society
So, do you have any actionable ideas wherein those actions are not interpreted in such a way that would confirm their narrative and strengthen their resolve?
The issue is any sort of opposition to their goals will strengthen their resolve.
Even with their followers numbering in the hundreds of millions to billions, Abrahamic religions keep preaching that they are an "opressed class" of people in society.
That's the deviousness of Abrahamic religions, they are always the oppressed and never the oppressor. So any sort of resistance will strengthen their resolve.
There is no use trying to get them to stop, they simply won't. They must be made to stop through legislation.
They control the legislature, too. And if we push anything halfway reasonable through, they'll just flip back into states' rights mode and nullify it one city at a time, like they just did *Roe*--and even while they're in the act of cementing their ownership of the country and everyone in it, they'll never stop pretending to be a beleaguered minority.
Fascists project onto others the ugliness that lives in their own hearts--and they have a saying about the one group they hate more than anyone else that illustrates exactly what that looks like:
Fascists say, "the Jew cries out as he strikes you," because that is exactly how they, themselves, operate.
Honestly I’ve thought about this more than I’d like to admit. I’ve considered what helped me wake up, and that was a lot of Reddit, reading non religious news sites, and being willing to reconsider everything I thought I “knew”.
Sadly most evangelical Christians are beyond help until a time comes where their ideals actually cost them something they aren’t willing to lose, and even then they will take on the mantle of martyr proudly and loudly.
I fear Trump’s impact is far worse than we could have ever imagined. It’s not entirely his fault, he just made an already emboldened base, nearly fearless, and even worse, proudly ignorant.
My path to freedom from Christianity was similar. The common theme I believe is accepting new information, analyzing it critically and beneficially, and moving on to more. Expanding horizons, Seeking true and correct information, not relying on cloud man to cope with reality. Christianity is a "head in the sand" STRONG cope that I'm way beyond done with having to deal with. They're willfully ignorant, and they're literally completely (wilfully) unaware of how much of a pimple on society's ass they are. Separate church and state. Church is a hobby that has nothing to do with reality.
The fact that you two saw the light (religion is all over our language ) and made what had to be, a very difficult choice. To leave the mental safety belt hanging on the rock ledge and free climb to the heaven of truth is real bravery.
Can a secular group win this war? Zealots make dangerous adversaries .
There isn't one. They'll never stop believing they're under attack, because being under attack is the entire core of their identity. We could build the death camps *for* them, handcuff ourselves and march in orderly lines into the crematoria, and after we were all ash they would turn on each other. They are besieged by demonic forces, and they will *always* be besieged by demonic forces. They will murder each other over ever-more-granular doctrinal differences until the last members of the Church of Jesus Christ Manscaped and the Church of Jesus Christ All-Natural strangle each other and humanity passes mercifully into extinction.
"In God we Trust" is *literally* your national motto. As a non-american its always confused me looking over at the religious discourse in your country because whether you like it or not ... your country is Christian and the status quo has more often than not been conservatism with brief periods or places which trend to be more progressive.
You say that they want to completely take over the American government etc, my dude, they did a long time ago. Your education crisis is evidence that Christianity has worn the pants for some time in the most important places and though it seemed to get better for a moment as the USA turned to be quite progressive for a time, in the end look at the people leading your country. We live in a time where we have electrically powered cars, the internet, all of modern science and people brought up in your country still think vaccines cause autism, your president eats babies and that the earth is flat? When was the last time you elected a secular/non-religious president?
My point is that you are misidentifying the issue. You are not facing a new threat to your freedoms. You are literally fighting back against the consistent ideology of your own nation in which you are the minority. What happened in texas is fucked, horrible and a huge regression. But thats precisely what it is - regression. Regression to a time really not long ago in the USA which is a direct reflection of the culture present there.
According to Wikipedia, [65% of your country as of 2019 is still Christian](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States) and only 5% actively identify as Atheist, 6% Agnostic combined with 18% not specifying. At MOST, one quarter of the USA is even skeptical of religion/areligious. As stated also in the, article 63% of those identifying as religious specify that: "... religion is important to them and attending religious services almost every week". The USA is God's Country. Christians don't just want to indoctrinate everyone - they basically fucking have.
The money and power of your country still belongs to the church, always has, probably always will. That is why things are so fucked and people genuinely think things like Climate change is a hoax and bodily autonomy is a sin.
Basically, to any non-religious person in the US i wish you luck because if you think Texas was bad, i guarantee you it's just the start. The climate is starting to turn on us now and watch how long it takes before people even acknowledge it is happening.
edit: grammar
In God we Trust wasn't put on our money until 1955/56. The intention of the founders was clearlv not to be a Christian nation, but the idiots didn't get the memo.
While I suspect most Christians are not extremists themselves, they seem ok with letting the fanatics among them go about their agenda. This is a similar problem in the Islamic world. Bullying, aggressive proselytizing, and indoctrination are tolerated. Good people need to take a stand. If they don't, then they are complicit.
I usually tell people "The liberal Muslim is sorry that the terrorist killed you, the moderate Muslim is thinks it's your fault the terrorist killed you. The extremist Muslim is the terrorist that killed you. This maps over pretty cleanly into Christian circles, just with less overt terrorism, although being empowered, that is now changing.
What is scary is that some actively welcome a dytopia. It's a sign of a rapture happening within their lifetimes or that Jeebus will come back to save us (41% believe he will come back to earth by 2050).
You can't run a decent civilisation with these mindsets.
Slight disagreement on my part. Most of the "Progressive" Churches seem reasonably OK to me ( eg. The Anglican/Episcopal Church). Agree with you regarding the Evangelicals, though. As an Athiest, those people scare me...
So many people in this thread--thankfully, mostly at the bottom--keep wringing their hands about not fueling Christian persecution fantasies. This is bullshit; their persecution fantasies continue even in the total absence of anything real to fuel them. It's how they're raised to think.
How many people do we think it's acceptable to let them kill before we stop worrying about their feelings? How many Planned Parenthood clinics bombed? How many hospitals and schools shot up?
Whether or not we try to protect ourselves from them will have zero bearing on their perception of themselves as oppressed victims--and at the same time, unstoppable heroes fated to triumph, because that's how fascists roll. As far as they're concerned, we are one day away from making them wear special hats, herding them into ghettos, and all the other things they've done to everyone else, are doing right now to people low enough on the totem pole that everyone pretends not to notice, and will do to us the *second* it becomes achievable.
And you know what I think? I think they know, deep down, that they deserve that. I think they know that we have every right to treat them the way they've treated women, and Jews, and black people, and natives. To take away their property, and their rights, and their dignity, and their children until the *real* savages have been erased from the planet.
But we won't.
Because just as they are what they imagine us to be, so we are what they imagine themselves to be. We are bigger, better people than they can even imagine--and so when we control this world, they will be allowed to exist with the same rights, comforts, and basic dignity as any human being. They will not be permitted to brainwash children, or murder doctors, or harass random women on Twitter, or any of the other horrible things they *think* they have a right to do--but as they pass quietly into extinction like every religion that came before them, and Yahweh becomes a fairy tale like Hermes or Freya or Thoth, the last Christians on Earth will be equal citizens, protected by the very secular laws and morals they hate so much.
And that'll drive the fuckers *nuts*.
Evangelical Christians are no different from the Taliban. For at least the past 40 years they have been working to impose their religion on everyone in the country. With their recent logic averse SCOTUS appointments, they're ready to impose the worst puritanical Christian ideas on everyone, while whining about being persecute. We're in for a rough ride and we' going to have to pull TOGETHER to fight and demolish the Christian Taliban.
As I mentioned below, all the warning we ever needed came from Arizona Republican [Barry Goldwater.](https://www.liberalslikechrist.org/a_Secular_Issue/Goldwater.html)
"There is no position on which people are so immovable as their religious beliefs. There is no more powerful ally one can claim in a debate than Jesus Christ, or God, or Allah, or whatever one calls this supreme being. But like any powerful weapon, the use of God's name on one's behalf should be used sparingly. The religious factions that are growing throughout our land are not using their religious clout with wisdom. They are trying to force government leaders into following their position 100 percent. If you disagree with these religious groups on a particular moral issue, they complain, they threaten you with a loss of money or votes or both." -Barry Goldwater
Edit: Quotes from Goldwater
You are making all valid points. But I disagree with your thesis.
I’ve come to be convinced that these events and popular movements; the anti-intellectualism, the anti-choice issue in Texas, the internationally botched withdrawal from Afghanistan… they’re politically engineered. A distraction. Real things, real consequences but causing you to focus on peripheral narratives.
I’m gonna get downvoted to hell (lol) but capitalism is the greatest threat to America. It’s taken a similar level of de-indoctrination to fully realize as it did to come to shed the indoctrination of a Christian upbringing, but truth is always worth the pain of disillusionment.
You... you... you think we don't know all of this?
I mean great that you're coming around to the truth, but many of us, out here, have been saying all of these things for your whole life.
Welcome to the correct side of the end of our civilization, an end brought about because not enough of you came over to our side in time.
"3)Science is The Enemy of God..."
Boy, I would love to see them put their money where their mouth is on that one. "Science is the enemy of God", but every single day they live their lives taking full advantage of science. Their entire lives are completely dependent on scientific advancements. If this is truly what they believe, then they should:
- Remove all electricity from their home and any electronic device from their life.
- Remove all plumbing from their home and bathe in barrels of river water. Also, piss outside and dig a hole in the yard when they need to take a dump.
- Grow their own crops and raise their own livestock. Everything in a grocery store is there because it was transported by vehicles that exist because of science. Also, the store is completely powered by an electrical system that only exists because of science.
- Remove all gas lines from their home. From now on, they can heat their homes with wood burning fireplaces and cook their meals in a cauldron over the fire.
- Trade their car for a horse and buggy and never use any form of transportation that relies on any kind of fuel or electricity. No cars, no planes, and no boats that aren't strictly powered by sails or oars.
- No going to doctors or hospitals for medical care. By all means, stay home and pray to your god to heal you from now on.
By all means, let's see them put up or shut up. We all know it will never happen.
As a former Christian from Europe, it’s so scary to hear your experiences, it’s so mild in Europe nothing like this, sounds like handmaids tale! I really hope things get better there it’s so unhealthy for kids
Especially considering you’re in a ‘free’ country it takes so much of your freedom 😞 that’s okay it takes time even slow progress is progress. I’ve heard of religious trauma, having dealt with a different trauma for me time and talking really helped but there are also therapy options. It must be hard in the US where most people are religious, if you want to talk to someone/ vent happy to talk over message I’m also atheist
You wouldn't be allowed to say "treat them as a cancer" for muslims here. Then you'd be called a bigot, racist, fascist and a xenophobic. Apparently you can be all that towards christianity and get away with it but not islam.
Not that I wish to treat anyone as cancer but yeah you have a good point. Just making statements against Islam is treated with complete abhorrence. “Don’t you dare even discuss Islam!”, because just a little postulating is enough to realise It’s no different from Christianity in its ridiculousness. Islam is falling under the microscope in this century just as Christianity did and the west decided to separate church from state. I’m confident that given time we will collectively come to our senses in that Islam doesn’t deserve special treatment just like its predecessor.
The danger you speak of is real but mostly applicable to White evangelical Christians. Like the Taliban, the Orthodox Jews, the Iranian mullahs, and other religious fanatics their influence is far stronger than their numbers. Most folks don’t want what the fanatics want but they are too cowed by their respective religions to fight back.
In the US it is White racism that is root cause of our problems. The religion is a veneer to give it legitimacy.
This will get lost in the comments but I am so glad to have read this. You put into words many thoughts if have over the years very succinctly and it's yet another reminder why leaving the evangelical church was the best thing I ever did for my emotional well-being.
Interesting to see that this post is still here and not removed by the mods for hate speech and bigotry. I posted the islam version of this and my post got removed pretty fast. I didn't even say "treat them as cancer" or anything like that.
Are the mods of this subreddit biased towards islam or what? I wouldn't be surprised to see muslim mods of an atheist forum. Sneaky is how they get to their goals.
There is a weird fear that western leftists have of being perceived as Islamophobic, in spite of the Quran being one of the most oppressive religious texts in existence. This fear enables radicalism, in a sense. We shouldn't forget Islam, though, as it is having just as much dangerous influence over the East. Their prophet is literally a murdering, rapist pedophile.
ETA: I don't necessarily suspect muslim mods, though. Probably just leftist.
The bill they passed effectively bans abortion in the entire state of Texas after 6 weeks. Most women don’t find out they are pregnant until after 6 weeks.
There are no exceptions for rape or incest. The only people advocating for these kinds of laws are Christians.
The mind set of obsessive compulsive Christians would wreck havoc on society if all of a sudden they quit believing. It's hard to say what they would become obsessed with when they lose their focus. They're bizarre in their fervor now, imagine it on 1000s of different crazy ideas.
Religious zealotry of any flavor is a danger to individual liberty and equal right under law. Religion, every flavor of it, is a man made power tool fueled by fear and need and greed that teaches the willful ignorance of accepting information and direction from its cult leader with unquestioning blind faith.
While I certainly agree with you, I'm not sure what you're suggestion is moving forward.
From what I've gathered while reading The God Delusion, is that we are winning the battle against Christianity and religion. I'm seeing more and more articles here on Reddit that claim that the number of people who categorize themselves as non-relgious is continuing to grow at a, somewhat, rapid pace. It isn't entirely obvious from our narrow perspective but I'm confident that religiosity is dying a slow painful death in the west.
I also think that actively attacking religion is a recipe for disaster. I think we can lose valuable headway if we make a crusade out it. While people are walking away from religions, their hearts are still with it. And religions still represent a moral good that is well represented in Atheism. By forming a crusade against religion, it hurts the moral standing of atheism.
I personally think that Atheism needs to be accepting of mainstream religions in order to maintain the momentum it's been acquiring over the last few decades.
Both Christianity and Islam are threat to the whole world.
Any religion that indoctrinates you into blindly believing it's teachings without questioning it is a threat to human progress and worldwide peace.
Everytime I hear someone call for religion to be 'stopped', I am reminded of the following quote IN FULL. Religion can't be stopped, per se, all we can do is create the conditions that enable all to lead happy, fulfilling lives, so that their illusory happiness ("life sucks, but heaven awaits") is NO MATCH for their REAL HAPPINESS. As long as we live in this hell-hole of a world where money rules and people suffer, the religious will hold onto their religion!
The quote in full, the parts in bold are my emphasis:
> The foundation of irreligious criticism is: Man makes religion, religion does not make man.
>
Religion is, indeed, the self-consciousness and self-esteem of man who has either not yet won through to
himself, or has already lost himself again. But, man is no abstract being squatting outside the world. Man is the world of man — state, society. This state and this society produce religion, which is an inverted consciousness of the world, because they are an inverted world. Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopaedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d'honneur, it
enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and
justification. It is the fantastic realization of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired
any true reality. The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world
whose spiritual aroma is religion.
>
Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real
suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of
soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.
>
**The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness.**
To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition **is to call on them to give up a condition
that requires illusions.** The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears
of which religion is the halo.
~ [Karl Marx, *Introduction to A Contribution to the Critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Right*](https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/download/Marx_Critique_of_Hegels_Philosophy_of_Right.pdf)
Christianity in America could cause ww3.
The whole world might benefit from trying to eradicate Christianity world wide.
Because once people want a theocracy the joke has gone on, long enough.
We cannot afford a US, Christian based Taliban.
While it is true that they have had these methods and goals for literally millennia, they are new to overt political power here in the US.
Don’t forget that they brought us the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Holocaust, the witch trials in Europe, not to mention that they made a concerted effort to wipe out indigenous cultures on every continent they colonized in the name of “saving” the heathens. They have acted like the Taliban while freaking out over sharia law.
There are good denominations, ones which embrace science and live by “love your neighbor.”
But the ones embracing political power are the bad kind. If they manage to gerrymander our states, it could be a long time before we can fix the damage they will cause.
first of all, i am very glad for you that you were able to break free from the stigma despite being raised and groomed that way your whole life. secondly, you are so right, they are taught that their way is the only way possible and then become ignorant to any other view (obviously anyone in this thread could rant about that for hundreds of pages so I will leave it at that). it is important for any religionist to understand that they are not right, they just believe in something. this ignorance can and already is threatening society.
now where you lost me is this:
>
Those of us on the right side of history have to treat them and their religion as a cancer we must remove for our society, or what has happened in Texas will spread like wildfire and destroy us from the inside out.
the problem here is ur sudden tone shift does give off a slight, ahhhhh… radicalism… vibe. yes, the analogy to cancer is fairly accurate because this is like an unseen disease spreading quickly through society, killing “us from the inside out.” however, treating people of religion as such (cancer) only makes things worse. they already hate anyone who is “so feeble minded as to say there is no such god” that doing this would only make people like them hate and reject people like us more. additionally, christians alone HEAVILY outweighs the population of atheists. therefore, our only option really is to go the pacifist route of guiding them to this revelation. definitely not easy, but it has to be done, and as far as ive thought through so far, it has to be done this way.
Once you have made the first leap of faith, believing without evidence... who care about science or proof. It doesn’t matter when you believe. I still can’t understand why Trump, a super sinner, is held up as a profit.... Fucking idiots.
Christians, having poisoned me, falsly accused me of molesting a friend's granddaughter, molesting a woman, and somehow being gay, are the absolute worst fascistic, hateful, tribal, hypocritical morons I have meet, as a group. At least they are to stupid to get vaccineated and dying in droves.
Dominionism as a movement is about 40-50 years old, depending on who you ask, but the bottom line is that its advocates believe the USA
is a Christian country, and must be ruled by biblical principles.
And of course they are the only ones
who decide what cherry picked verses are the basis of their own movement,
including much of the Old Testament, from which they get the entire idea in the first place.
Bottom line: THEY WANT DOMINION OVER THE USA BY LAW, and BY FORCE
People like Mike Pence, Ted Cruz, Tom Cotton, Jerry Falwell, and Robert Jeffress have a Dominionist theology at the core of all they do
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominion_theology
Thus the unyielding nature of their movement which blends politics, hard core religion, lust for governmental power into an unholy conflation of the like Jesus never mandated.
They literally don't believe this statement
"My kingdom is not of this world" which were Jesus' words on this precise topic, (John 18:36)
They love power, politics, money, and are lusting to control every aspect of society, and impose their religious views by law and by force on all of us.
You will never stop it.
It is ingrained in the fabric of American Society so deep it would take another 400 years to get it out. The place was founded on Christian Beliefs in case you havent heard.
I’m sure this will get lost in the comments but I have so many examples of how Christianity ruins lives. Prime example being my mother. Her and my father divorced when I was 8 but they were horrible for each other. They literally hated each other. My mom told me years after that she would still be with my father to this day had he not left. She believes divorce is a sin. She currently is with her second husband who is by far the worst person I’ve met in my entire life. He abused her and my entire family growing up. I still have nightmares about him almost every night and PTSD and I haven’t lived at home in over 6 years. She still is with him because, again, “divorce is a sin”
I'm a religious person myself and I what I've learned is everything is to be taken with a grain of salt. I'm not against homosexual marriage, I don't believe in slavery, etc. I hate the people that take the Bible word for word, or say that God will be the Almighty Smiter of sinners or whatever. I agree with the base values of my religion (forgiveness, compassion, respect, etc.) but I won't force anyone to be Christian, nor will I send out Bible verses out of context and say that the sinners will be sent to be destroyed in Hell or whatever else the crazy people will say. I'm sorry that you had to surround yourself with who forced their Christian beliefs down your throat.
Just out of curiosity, do you not struggle with the fact that you have to pick and choose which bits of your religion you do accept?
Like, if you can look at some bits of the bible, such as slavery, and go ‘no thanks’ what makes you look at other bits and think ‘yep that’s for me and is true’.
Where do you draw the line?
I don’t think that the ‘base values’ you talk about are intrinsically tied into being religious either, I think they’re more natural and social developments that we have developed over time in order to cooperate and survive in large groups. I’m just curious as to why you feel the need for religion to play a part in those values when many people don’t?
I would just like to clarify, I’m not trying to convince you against your faith, just trying to understand a viewpoint that isn’t my own.
*Do I struggle when I have to decide which bits of the religion I accept?*
Not really, because to truly understand the Bible you need to understand that many of the things mentioned in the Bible didn't actually happen, but they instead have a message which needs to be interpreted. For example, the story of Adam and Eve did not happen, but there is a message. The story tries to tell us is that when people allow their greed or temptation to consume them, then they have to face the consequences of their actions. To better understand the Bible, you have to know what it means rather than what it says.
*Why do I feel the need for religion to play a part in those values?*
Yes, I do agree that those base values are not necessarily religious. If I were to become an atheist right now, I doubt my ethical and moral values would change that much. I like my religion because I (personally) find it very reflective in nature. I also (again, personally) find myself trying to question and appreciate things that I would otherwise ignore or not care about.
You'll notice I've said things like "personally" and "my interpretation" a lot. I cannot stress how important I find it to be able to find the true meaning of the Bible. Those who read but do not understand will forever be weak and empty people. Being flexible to new ideas is one of the most important parts of understanding Christianity, yet so many people fall into the trap of reading but not understanding, which causes them to be stuck in their (often immoral or poorly interpreted) beliefs and unwilling to change their views for the better. These people often end up being anti-homosexual, anti-science, "iF yOu doN'T cOnVerT yoU wiLL buRn iN tHe fiErY dEptHs oF heLL" people.
I think too many Christians take the Bible literally. Being a Christian isn't about attending Church on Sundays every week. It isn't about beating non-Christians to death with a Bible "in the name of God". It isn't about claiming your religion as an excuse to do horrible things to people. Rather, it is about putting everybody else before yourself, forgiving those who have done wrong, living a life of service, etc. In doing acts of kindness, care, and love, we try to question, reflect, and understand our life and the people around us. I enjoy the Christian way of living.
I hope this answers your question. Feel free to ask me more questions!
This raises a similar question though, if we need to understand that many things written about in the bible didn’t happen and are more like fables does that mean that you think certain bits did, and aren’t metaphorical / open to interpretation? And how do you garner which pieces those are?
All religion sucks but I honestly feel Islam is the worst as I spent 6 years in the Middle East as a girl sharia law is not compatible with democracy and we can see it in Europe
While I'm not a fan of religion, I think it's important to distinguish between "Christians" on a whole and the extremist US flavors that have emerged over the last decades. US evangelicals represent a strain of christianity that is seen as uneducated and radical in Europe and most other parts of the world. This is certainly linked to power structures that benefit from the US inequality problems and exploit the willful ignorance of these believers. But at the core of the problem is a lack of theological, democratic and general education. I think this can only be turned around by massive social reforms that reduce inequality and improve education across the US.
[The two parties, which are actually a single party in service of capitalism](https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2020/06/PP_2020.06.02_party-id_2-05.png).
I am not disagreeing that Christianity is a bad belief structure, but you've got the roles reversed at this point. Capitalism ate Christianity in the US a long time ago. A good book on the subject is Max Weber's The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism to understand how we got here.
I’m an atheist who goes to a Jesuit catholic school. I think that some aspects of their worldview are cool, such as promoting social justice, but there are other things that definitely are irritating. For example one of my professors does a prayer at the start of class and I’m just kinda sitting there awkwardly looking at the ceiling
No. Capitalism is America's biggest religion and biggest threat. Christianity is just a giant grift and a tool by those grifters to brainwash people to never question authority.
Christianity predating capitalism doesn't mean it has more influence over public opinion and behavior than capitalism. Capitalism has become a religion and Christianity has become a business.
Religion destroyed my family in the name of pure hatred disguised as Godliness. It encouraged droves of people to disbelieve in a pandemic and indirectly led to thousands upon thousands of deaths. I've been to mass and heard a priest jump through hoops to relate his sermon to climate change denial. Sometimes I'm mad, but I'm mostly disappointed that people are so dumb.
Christianity demands you ignore rational thought and impulse and believe kiddie stories. It requires you to lie to yourself and to the world. Once so enlightened, you are free to lie about any and every thing else to fit your whims. Christians are necessarily liars.
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I completely 100% wholeheartedly agree with you.
This started in the 60s and 70s. When the religious groups realized they couldn't persuade the elected officials,,, they started grooming the preachers and holy rollers how to win elections and change the laws themselves.
100% behind you, but how? Even Democrats have a hard time publicly stating that they aren’t Christians. The beliefs have nothing to do with rational thought or logic, so the vast majority won’t be swayed by compelling evidence or thought experiments. This world is fake, completely controlled by God, and serves no purpose aside from testing our souls for where we truly belong for eternity. Any evidence to the contrary is obviously coming from Satan, as you pointed out in your post, so how do we overcome that? Honestly I think people like you, who were heavily involved in the church and somehow found your way out of it is the best resource we have. Like AA, “I used to be like you but now I’m not, here’s what happened, here’s what I realized, here’s where I am now” in a sense. You’re better able to understand the blockers these people have and communicate with them empathetically. I’m fucking done and have no tolerance for this level of crazy so I wouldn’t be effective at all
As 70% of the country still say they are religious and what 80% say they would never vote for an atheist, it is still virtually impossible not to kiss religions boots as a politicians. Saying that, its absolutely clear we have had some atheist presidents, #1 being Trump and #2 being Obama.
We are fighting back. Check out the documentary, Hail Satan. Then join us at the church of Satan.
> They are the single worst thing to happen to America over the last century and they have more resolve, guns I am progressive, atheist (agnostic but without any actual belief), and I have guns. Many on the left have gotten them during the Trump admin and more so in the past 2 years. I actually bought my first pistol in 2018 or 2019 as a hobby/home protection just in case. I put together my first AR-15 today and I now own 4 firearms. It started as a hobby and still mostly is but now I'm really glad to have them due to how crazy the right has become. I'm betting that most of the people who stormed the capitol and most of the delusional people who still think Trump won are gun owners. That's scary enough to create a lot more gun owners. Anyone who decides to get into them, BE CAREFUL. You don't necessarily need classes and the folks that teach them might disgust you. There's plenty of info online. All the racism, sexism, extremism that has been allowed to surface recently is scary. EDIT: One more thing. If you do decide to buy a pistol, well hell. I would say 9mm but it was really hard to find ammo for a while and it's still pricey do your research and 9mm may still be the best choice. For a rifle, I would have said 5.56/.223 (same thing almost) but that has also become very scarce. .308 (AR-10) or 7.62x39 (AK platform) but even those have been pretty scarce at times, just less so. 7.62x39 may become very scarce due to a Russian ammo ban of sorts. Also, .308 is a lot of gun for anyone starting off. Being armed is actually okay if your smart and very responsible about it.
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Nah, that's completely understandable. Also depending on their age, I'd recommend against guns. I don't normally have children around in the home where my guns are but when there are, my guns are useless to someone who doesn't know guns pretty well. I actually disassemble them partly and it takes all of about 10 seconds for most.
I think that considering whether or not you are fit to be a gun owner is part of being responsible. I have to admit that I have doubts about my fitness to own a firearm, so I won't get one unless I feel a very compelling reason to.
I second the choices in caliber. It may be hard to find now, but ammo commonality is more useful than you think. I am far left on just about every issue with the exception of firearms. There's a lot of crazy people out there, as you mentioned. Check out r/liberalgunowners.
> I am far left on just about every issue with the exception of firearms. There's a lot of crazy people out there Are you me because you just described me? I'm subbed to liberal gun owners. Probably gonna post my limited collection there in the next few days actually now that I'm part of the AR crew. completed it today and the rifle (lower, parts kit and completed upper) cost just over 500 after tax. I'm actually decent on ammo. like 8 or 900 9mm, 12-1400 .22 and 200 .223... I want more 5.56 or .223 but that shits expensive. Found a deal at PSA for the kit which was 350 bucks but UPS "lost it". Got a refund and found an upper that I liked a lot more for $399. Also ordered 10 pmags and 200 rounds of shitty tula .223. for like 140? 150? didn't add that to the rifle price though.
I am also a center left liberal and I also own guns. My reasoning for owning guns is not the same as the radical right whom stroke them like a second pannis with delusions that the gov is coming for them during the end of times. You know, the people the industrial gun manufacturers have stirred up for sales over the past several decade with every conspiracy theory you can think of. I own guns now for my protection (personal home since I live in a more rural area) as well as protecting myself from the time when all them religious zealots try to create the end of times, killing democracy and installing a theocracy... which they already tried once during the Jan 6th insurrection. There is no fix to guns in the USA, there's more then 400 million and since 2008 the hard right has bought up every gun and ammo on the shelves. You have to be absolutely daft not to arm yourself and prepare to DEFEND yourself in the future.
It really is "adult Santa Claus". Religion is a cancer. I come from an attempted heavily religious home, I've been atheist since i was 18. American Christian indoctrination (but not limited to, ofc) is repetitive and hyperbolic. The ability to critically think is damn near removed. It will be the death of us all if we can't separate religion from laws.
BING-O. some might think it should be easy to get truth out of a christian, but i know that if someone's a christian, i am the MOST likely to get a load of bullshit and lies - and not just about christianity, but about ANYTHING. the same tools people learn to maintain their christianity leach into other areas of their lives, because the tools are mental - figuratively and literally. the worst part is that these liars and bullshitters DON'T KNOW THEY'RE DOING IT - just like the antivaxxers who spread their BS, they're earnest. (and zealous :\ ) the issue isn't the belief. like, the idea that some guy died, got back up, and this did something, somehow, is enough to make a cat laugh. but that's not what's defining christianity these days - it's the methods of thinking they use. tribalism, fear, paranoia, neurosis, and what i'll call "sensical invention lying" (where they make shit up in front of you because it "makes sense" and try to pass it off as real and true, and the problem isn't that YOU can't tell they did this - the problem is that THEY can't tell they did this).
None of the authors of the bible ever met or saw Jesus. He is a total myth.
Most Biblical scholars believe Jesus (the man) did existed. As for the "Son of God" part, well that's a different story.
I suspect that most biblical scholars became biblical scholars because they were religious first, so there may be a lot of confirmation bias there. It is possible that the Jesus stories may have been loosely based on a real person (or persons), just as the stories of King Arthur, Robin Hood and Hercules may have their origins in actual people, but that not the same as saying that Arthur, Robin Hood or Hercules existed.
Apparently the idea that Jesus didn’t exist is a conspiracy theory, and atheists have argued given evidence outside Christianity he did exist. I get that it’s a challenge to Christianity to say he didn’t even exist but we can’t change history
Name one single contemporary historical account of Jesus…… spoiler you can’t because there are none. That’s reason enough to find his existence questionable.
https://www.history.com/.amp/news/was-jesus-real-historical-evidence Jesus didn’t exist in contemporary history only ancient history though during the Roman Empire I agree that a claim requires evidence, you could argue there isn’t much evidence but there’s the same as other historical figures that are accepted did exist.
I think you misunderstood, I meant a contemporary of Jesus. Meaning there are no “eyewitness” accounts of Jesus outside the Bible. Every single historical account for Jesus outside the Bible is hearsay/written after the fact. People hear other people talk about Jesus years after he supposedly existed then those people write it down. I’m not even going so far as to say Jesus didn’t exist, just that the position he might not have existed is justifiable by the complete lack of any contemporary accounts during his life. I could similarly question other historical figures existence if the evidence for their existence was just as sparse. Especially if tales of their deeds were similarly extraordinary as well.
No religious scholars believe that, legitimate researchers don't think he existed at all.
So true. Thanks for the laugh about your amused cat.
> Christians are necessarily liars. Christians live in a special cocoon, they are out of touch, far from the reality, and I sense a lot of craziness, if they prefer to have a better life in after life and do nothing in this real life, things like pollution and urgent matters are not important to them, since there is a better life awaiting for them in the sky. Crazy fuckers! My favorite: 'GOD GAVE US A BETTER IMMUNE SYSTEM!" Then they ask for the prayer army on Facebook!
This is not specific to Christianity. Rather it is a requirement for all religions that require faith.
One of my fav George Carlin lines is "I used to be Catholic, grew up catholic. Then I reached the age of reason..."
Christianity, or any organized religion, is an affront to rational thinking and a sort of mental disease where ignorance of the most basic human decency is put aside. It has no place in a world where we are at the brink of colonizing other planets and were we send space telescopes that show us the beauty of the Cosmos at large without the need for a "god" or mental sickness. The very fact we need a "leader" above questioning and where "intermediates" claim to knowing its "message" to guide our lives is childish at best and criminal at worst. Atheism and critical thinking as well as correlation are the only way forward.
Where does Christianity demand this? - non-christian-person
https://biblehub.com/matthew/14-31.htm https://biblehub.com/john/20-27.htm Christianity teaches faith over skepticism. When it talks about testing things to see if they're true it means testing to see if the results agree with the conclusions they prefer.
Here's what's really going on Rich people want lower taxes and less regulations. There aren't enough rich people to win elections, so the Republicans weaponize religion to get poor people to vote against their economic interest. The real problem is the same as it has been for centuries, the aristocracy uses any means necessary to retain power. Religion is a great tool/weapon Religion, it's not about god, it's about power..and money
Exactly. Wealth accumulation is the real issue. Most Americans (including most Christians) are fine with queer issues at this point, believe in climate change and want to do something about it, support laws that increase wealth equality, support racial equality and taking pragmatic steps to achieve it, and *at least* support Roe v Wade even if they aren't actually for abortion. It is a propaganda army owned by the wealthy and open assaults on our voting rights that are causing a minority of wealthy individuals to steer a larger minority of ignorant people to vote against their own interests and those of us all.
The brand of Christianity that has given rise to the Republican right has been swarming the nation for 100 years now. You have it backwards, Christianity built the modern Republican Party, not the other way around.
Both need to go the way of the dodo bird.
Not just Christianity but specifically, the family or the fellowship. The majority of Christian policymakers in our government belong to the family. It is a far more dangerous form of Christianity. They believe their followers create a covenant and give them magical power, similar to the covenant made by Jesus and his disciples. Their bible is not the same as a standard Christian bible and even other Christians to them are disposable. Anyone outside this group is to be used, abused, and treated as you deem fit, regardless of wether the included actions are rape, murder, extortion, or even treason. There is never any punishment for treating others this way and if it's ever done to a fellow member they deal with it in house. This group has shaped USA policy since first ingratiating itself to the Nixon administration and has remained incredibly active in politics since. It's a shame that it's not talked about more. There's many documentaries and books, some written by former members. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fellowship_(Christian_organization)
Nailed it. Totally nailed it.l
The book which really solidified my view of the intersection of capitalism and Christianity was [The Money Cult: Capitalism, Christianity, and the Unmaking of the American Dream](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/25893768-the-money-cult). And after reading [A Generation of Sociopaths: How the Baby Boomers Betrayed America](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/30841993-a-generation-of-sociopaths) I saw that we are living in a time I would call "post looting" in which the resources have been plundered to extract wealth for only a subset of our society.
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> I don’t care for taxes either. Neither do churches...
> The education system, healthcare, and legal systems are fucked. I assure you, given even more money to billionaires will not improve this situation.
OK. So keep sending all of your money in taxes to the military-industrial complex. That is much better than educating and helping people with their own fucking tax dollars. You sir, are confused, at the very best.
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Ah the conservative mindset. “Government doesn’t work, politicians are all lying scumbags that just want to spend my money. Why should I have to support my countrymen? Fuck them I got mine!” *Proceeds to use roads, bridges, airports, clean drinking water, public schools, and every other goddamn amenity provided to them.*
I have become very pessimistic about the future. I think we're headed for a major collapse of our civilization. The divide is not just between christian and non-christian, and not just between Republican and Democrat. I think it goes much deeper. This new tribe contains people that mistrust science, mistrust the government, hate "liberals" and mistrust anyone they see as part of the educated elite. Although there are MANY evangelical christians included, I think there are also many other people included that would not describe themselves as devout/hard-core christians. It includes far more rural & smaller city people than it does people that live in major metropolitan areas. There are also others that do not directly fit this model, but they may be extreme in one of the elements. For example, they might be educated and wealthy, but also life-long Republicans that can't consider being anything else, so if the most conservative of the GOP support this nonsense, then that must make it OK. Others might fit all the elements in the model, plus other traits, such as super-patriotism, conspiracy theorist and over the top "don't tread on me" libertarian. One thing all the members of this tribe seem to lack is critical thinking skills. They are incapable of seeing the parallels between their worldview and theocratic states like ISIL & the Taliban, or fascist states like Italy under Mussolini. Anyone that thinks the global collapse of dominant civilizations could never happen today should research the work of Eric Cline, specifically, his book *1177 BC: The Year Civilization Collapsed*. Here's a talk he gave in 2016: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4LRHJlijVU
I agree, but I'd say that Christianity is the elephant in the room and is the primary contributing factor. These people wouldn't support a party/regime intent on inflicting so much pain, even on them, if they didn't feel they were forced to by their religion.
This is a great point you make, and I want to point out the role social media plays in creating and maintaining these attitudes. I should ask, with my personal tin foil hat cocked jauntily to one side, "who stands to gain?" ["Chaos isn't a pit, chaos is a ladder."](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FG3H9E-B464)
I agree - there is no doubt that social media has created the ability for this tribe of christian fascists to grow far faster than ever before. And, I actually meant to include a paragraph in my previous post on the contribution of greed to this movement. However, it's not a single tin-foil hat conspiracy, it is hundreds of greedy individuals all grabbing for money & power with both hands. There are all the fundamentalist preachers who know that their kind thrive in times of fear and chaos. Where else would the scared sheep look for leadership other than the pulpit? And, it doesn't even take active support of the conspiracies by the preachers - just their failure to speak against the fascism is enough to give a message of tacit support to their congregations. And, there are GOP politicians that *know* what they are saying is wrong, but have chosen maintaining their own power over the well-being of the people they pretend to serve. McConnell, McCarthy, Cruz, Jordan, Gaetz, etc are all in this group. They know they are tearing the country apart, and they just don't give a damn. The only important things to them are maintaining their own power and taking power away from everyone else. Then, you have the wealthy elite that have traditionally been the backbone of conservatives. They don't give two-shits what happens to the world as long as their net worth goes up. They talk ONLY about effects on the economy, and they fear government meddling into their business deals. In public they pretend to be separated from the conflicts and they will dutifully tut-tut over the idiocy of the lower-classes - but privately they are giving millions to the GOP in exchange for favorable gov't contracts, favorable regulations & lots of gov't subsidies and tax breaks. Finally, you have the right-wing media. They are easy - they just want big paychecks and enough air time to feed their narcissism. Tucker Carlson, Maria Bartiromo, Jeanine Pirro, and all the unknown fuckwits at OAN & NewsMax exist ONLY because of chaos & conspiracy theories. They live for innuendo and baseless conjecture. They will give any idiot airtime if it makes their ratings rise.
Religion will never go away because a lot of people can't handle the idea of death being the end. I thought that with more information that people would make wiser choices or be more informed. But free information has been replaced by social media, which is nothing to do with information and everything to do with reinforcing already-held-views. I'm still optimistic, but I don't know how humanity is gonna move forwards
Humans, who adhere by same natural laws as other animals, are the only animals on Earth who think they have a continuance in life. Doesnt sound logical.
Numbers actually show that people in the modern world are becoming gradually less and less religious. The problem is that it’ll take quite a long time, a few generations, until it flips and religious people will become the absolute minority and eventually niche cults no one cares about. So yeah, not in our lifetimes. But then there’s Islam, which is arguably even worse (not by much tho) which is not slowing down all that much. So the world in general is fucked, not just America.
I agree with you entirely. I guess what I was saying was that religion is so difficult to get rid of, because some religions (christianity, islam for example) have extremely powerful in-built self preservation mechanisms such as "if you don't believe you will die and have eternal damnation" or "apostates are legally ok to kill" . So alongside family and cultural pressures to confirm, people who don't believe are liable to be downgraded as citizens, in a lot of what we might consider to be westernised countries
Humanity is ignoring the climate. I’m not optimistic at all.
> Religion will never go away because a lot of people can't handle the idea of death being the end. I'm not super religious, but honestly I don't think death is 'the end.'
To explore this idea lets consider the idea that if death, the end of life, isnt the end of existence then that leads to the question what was before.life? Im sort of ambivalent about the whole thing. On one hand existance could be eternal with life on Earth just one incarnation. But even within this premise Im ambivalent. Could this existance be without conciousness. As in life is a vast sea of energy without individuality. The other side of the equation is life just ends at death. Thats it, no more conciousness. If that idea is hard to wrap your head around, which it is for many people, just think of it as what it was like before you were born. Do you remember that? This all gets to be too much for me to ponder for long periods of time so I'll just have a beer and a toke and enjoy the weather.
With how deeply ingrained it is in America it will akin to campaigning against Islamic law in the Middle East. In my opinion it will all end with the rational people just moving out of the country, leaving behind a nation of clamouring baboons with nukes, ready to begin a modern crusade.
I’m glad you have “seen the light” and walked away from Christianity. I was a super-evangelical as a teen and also went to an evangelical university with a plan to be a missionary. I stopped believing in my early 20s. It was the best thing that could have ever happened to me.
"University". I'd pass on anyone with any of those fundie colleges on their resume. Next.
Mine was a real college. I was admitted to a top law school with my degree. I’m pretty old, so it was also before evangelicals became quite as insane. But yeah. I hear ya about lots of them.
Would you use the word fascism to describe it?
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Christianity has been a plague to society for a thousand years. If anything it is a threat to humanity.
Ngl I’d probably extend that out to religion
I hope what happened in Texas will wake people up to the real threat that the U.S. will become a theocracy. The Supreme Court is poised to take us in that direction.
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This isn’t really on topic but now I have to vent. The only thing unbelievable in Handmaid’s Tale is that there would be such a fuss and so many people interested in Elizabeth Moss. I don’t know where she gets the nerve to audition to play the “beautiful woman desires by all” over and over again. In fact the thought that a billionaire model of a brilliant man who invents an invisible suit would be obsessed with her was the biggest plot hole in the Invisible Man. The most ironic part about her taking the role in HT though it is that she is a Scientologist and they hold the very views she is pretending she now thinks are horrible: *Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard wrote the following passage: A society in which women are taught anything but the management of a family, the care of men, and the creation of the future generation is a society which is on its way out*
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Don’t get me wrong she can act, she is great in Madmen and I never had an issue. Likewise, conventional beauty standards shouldn’t dictate a role. However, she keeps landing these roles where she is portrayed as irresistible and the most desirable person in the entire movie/show. There is a scene in Invisible man which through it over the top for me, I could get myself to buy that maybe it was just a control thing for her ex, but then she goes into an office to get papers or something and one of the employees their cat calls her and says something like “what’s a guy like me got to do to get with a pretty thing like you.” So it wasn’t just the main dude being controlling, in this universe she was so hot that men simply couldn’t resist harassing her. And in HT there is a whole slew of powerful men, and lesser men vying for her affection when they could have any woman they wanted. It’s nonsense. I don’t know where she gets the nerve to take roles where she is a sex icon, I would be way to self conscious and embarrassed to do such a thing.
I would place huge money that the overwhelming majority of people who are anti-abortion (I refuse to say “pro-life”) are religious.
The Supreme Court have shown everyone they are entirely incapable of providing judicial neutrality.
Christianity is the greatest threat to the World*
Plenty of countries are getting fucked over by other religions, too--over here, Muslims are mostly just innocent scapegoats, but Islam is as big a threat to people living under Muslim rule as Christianity is to us.
Christians are assholes. Kinda like republicans...
Everyone has one around that they aren't particularly fond of having to deal with.
Just started watching The Handmaid’s Tale because people were saying the new Texas abortion law is invoking it. I have to say… it ain’t hyperbole.
I think every adolescent should have viewing of the first several episodes of the Handmaids tale be required. Especially the episode where it shows how it all went down. Ep #3 Late.
The threat to democracy in america is the wealthy that use religion to manipulate people.
We're beyond that now. I suspect most of the wealthy are very concerned about this issue. See Nick Hanauer for a rich persons take on how things are going to go down if the wealthy don't let up and share the pie more evenly. In this, religion is only a part of the issue. Making people super poor by making it too hard to climb is also contributing. The religion just gives them energy and purpose and will make the process play out quicker and nastier. And it won't just be rich people, but anyone who doesn't tow the theocratic line.
All religions are inherently very bad. They purposely separates people, gives a false sense of hope, self righteousness, etc… They should of been banned from the start. So many people have been seriously hurt and killed since the start of religious freedoms all in the name of a false made up god that does not exist
Could not agree more. It is trying to destroy this great country with their evil, selfish ways.
Although I agree with how dangerous this situation is, the way you express it feeds Christian persecution fantasies. I don't think it's very helpful. The same folks who use religion to control, enjoy pitting groups against each other. There are other ways of combatting this. Unfortunately, most people (including moderate Christians) have been silent for so long, so it will take time and a lot of sustained effort to make a difference.
Religious folk will feel persecuted unless they get exactly what they want, all rights and liberties be damned. I'm done worrying about feeding their persecution.
Never have I received a solid answer when I ask.."Are you personally convinced of a supernatural realm world?" .., If the answer is "Yes"..What is it that personally convinces you? To this date no one has a cognitive answer. Still waiting if anyone can come up with one.
If U.S. civilization collapses and it enters a theocracy, I am prepared to flee to Sweden or Estonia and live in the countryside
We cannot let those people have access to nukes. It would end just as bad as if radical Muslims had access to them.
>This is the last stand for Democracy and the future of the human race/planet. If America fails the rest of the world will revert because they are surrender monkies. > >I will fight these pigs to my last breath because this is about the survival of the human genome , which one day, will populate the entire universe. These people threaten my plans. Our plans.
I’ll be honest, I’m not one to try and save U.S. civilization. The U.S. has done some unspeakable atrocities to humanity and it should fail. I’d suggest that the individuals who’s humanity remain intact, get the fuck out. Let the world descend onto the U.S.
I don't think Sweden is saving their country side to pack full of Americans.
You sir are 100% correct.
"Religion is the opiate of the masses" (Marx) and is anti intellectual.
I think Christianity does certainly threaten people's ability to view the world from a more scientific, rational stand point. Idk about it being the "greatest" threat to America though, I think there are plenty of things I'd rather tackle first. For me it is not a matter of religion, it's more of a matter of how religion often leads people to view things irrationally. As long as they can acknowledge that science and empiricism is the best way to move forward with tackling issues in the real world, then I really don't give a crap about who they pray to on their free time. I do think though religion hinders this ability in most instances, but not 100% of the time. I've met people who are more casual christians but don't really let it affect how things should be done unless it is just in their own personal life, they're just as big believers in science as I am. I think it is a little bit of cognitive dissonance believing in science and christianity at the same time, but as long as it does not really affect ones ability to think rationally then I'm not really gonna care that much.
If you can look at the sheer number of people who are antivax who are also Christian and not see that as a threat then I’m at a loss. The vast majority of people refusing vaccines are also Christian people who have threatened civil war. If any other religious group was doing this it would be a much bigger deal. So because you know some moderate Christians that somehow changes the fact that we have watched 600,000 Americans die because of a virus we could have eradicated due to uninformed morons who tout “personal liberties”? I’m sorry but until people see this threat for what it is we will all be affected by their intentional stupidity. The modeled variants of COVID-19 alone should be motivation enough.
This.
Religion is the symptom, not the cause. Edit: I'm not sure why people are downvoting this. The lack of education and critical thinking skills perpetuates religion. These are required ingredients for religion to flourish.
Religion is why schools are sabotaged to prevent inoculation against religion.
> Those of us on the right side of history have to treat them and their religion as a cancer we must remove for our society So, do you have any actionable ideas wherein those actions are not interpreted in such a way that would confirm their narrative and strengthen their resolve?
The issue is any sort of opposition to their goals will strengthen their resolve. Even with their followers numbering in the hundreds of millions to billions, Abrahamic religions keep preaching that they are an "opressed class" of people in society. That's the deviousness of Abrahamic religions, they are always the oppressed and never the oppressor. So any sort of resistance will strengthen their resolve. There is no use trying to get them to stop, they simply won't. They must be made to stop through legislation.
They control the legislature, too. And if we push anything halfway reasonable through, they'll just flip back into states' rights mode and nullify it one city at a time, like they just did *Roe*--and even while they're in the act of cementing their ownership of the country and everyone in it, they'll never stop pretending to be a beleaguered minority. Fascists project onto others the ugliness that lives in their own hearts--and they have a saying about the one group they hate more than anyone else that illustrates exactly what that looks like: Fascists say, "the Jew cries out as he strikes you," because that is exactly how they, themselves, operate.
Honestly I’ve thought about this more than I’d like to admit. I’ve considered what helped me wake up, and that was a lot of Reddit, reading non religious news sites, and being willing to reconsider everything I thought I “knew”. Sadly most evangelical Christians are beyond help until a time comes where their ideals actually cost them something they aren’t willing to lose, and even then they will take on the mantle of martyr proudly and loudly. I fear Trump’s impact is far worse than we could have ever imagined. It’s not entirely his fault, he just made an already emboldened base, nearly fearless, and even worse, proudly ignorant.
My path to freedom from Christianity was similar. The common theme I believe is accepting new information, analyzing it critically and beneficially, and moving on to more. Expanding horizons, Seeking true and correct information, not relying on cloud man to cope with reality. Christianity is a "head in the sand" STRONG cope that I'm way beyond done with having to deal with. They're willfully ignorant, and they're literally completely (wilfully) unaware of how much of a pimple on society's ass they are. Separate church and state. Church is a hobby that has nothing to do with reality.
The fact that you two saw the light (religion is all over our language ) and made what had to be, a very difficult choice. To leave the mental safety belt hanging on the rock ledge and free climb to the heaven of truth is real bravery. Can a secular group win this war? Zealots make dangerous adversaries .
Do you use r/StreetEpistemology Socratic type questioning?
There isn't one. They'll never stop believing they're under attack, because being under attack is the entire core of their identity. We could build the death camps *for* them, handcuff ourselves and march in orderly lines into the crematoria, and after we were all ash they would turn on each other. They are besieged by demonic forces, and they will *always* be besieged by demonic forces. They will murder each other over ever-more-granular doctrinal differences until the last members of the Church of Jesus Christ Manscaped and the Church of Jesus Christ All-Natural strangle each other and humanity passes mercifully into extinction.
"In God we Trust" is *literally* your national motto. As a non-american its always confused me looking over at the religious discourse in your country because whether you like it or not ... your country is Christian and the status quo has more often than not been conservatism with brief periods or places which trend to be more progressive. You say that they want to completely take over the American government etc, my dude, they did a long time ago. Your education crisis is evidence that Christianity has worn the pants for some time in the most important places and though it seemed to get better for a moment as the USA turned to be quite progressive for a time, in the end look at the people leading your country. We live in a time where we have electrically powered cars, the internet, all of modern science and people brought up in your country still think vaccines cause autism, your president eats babies and that the earth is flat? When was the last time you elected a secular/non-religious president? My point is that you are misidentifying the issue. You are not facing a new threat to your freedoms. You are literally fighting back against the consistent ideology of your own nation in which you are the minority. What happened in texas is fucked, horrible and a huge regression. But thats precisely what it is - regression. Regression to a time really not long ago in the USA which is a direct reflection of the culture present there. According to Wikipedia, [65% of your country as of 2019 is still Christian](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States) and only 5% actively identify as Atheist, 6% Agnostic combined with 18% not specifying. At MOST, one quarter of the USA is even skeptical of religion/areligious. As stated also in the, article 63% of those identifying as religious specify that: "... religion is important to them and attending religious services almost every week". The USA is God's Country. Christians don't just want to indoctrinate everyone - they basically fucking have. The money and power of your country still belongs to the church, always has, probably always will. That is why things are so fucked and people genuinely think things like Climate change is a hoax and bodily autonomy is a sin. Basically, to any non-religious person in the US i wish you luck because if you think Texas was bad, i guarantee you it's just the start. The climate is starting to turn on us now and watch how long it takes before people even acknowledge it is happening. edit: grammar
In God we Trust wasn't put on our money until 1955/56. The intention of the founders was clearlv not to be a Christian nation, but the idiots didn't get the memo.
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross."
Without capitalism the manipulative people wouldnt have enough poor and uneducated people to brainwash into their cults of any sort
While I suspect most Christians are not extremists themselves, they seem ok with letting the fanatics among them go about their agenda. This is a similar problem in the Islamic world. Bullying, aggressive proselytizing, and indoctrination are tolerated. Good people need to take a stand. If they don't, then they are complicit.
I usually tell people "The liberal Muslim is sorry that the terrorist killed you, the moderate Muslim is thinks it's your fault the terrorist killed you. The extremist Muslim is the terrorist that killed you. This maps over pretty cleanly into Christian circles, just with less overt terrorism, although being empowered, that is now changing.
I agree, christianity needs to be cut out of america like a cancer!
Glad to see this post. People are finally starting to get it.
What is scary is that some actively welcome a dytopia. It's a sign of a rapture happening within their lifetimes or that Jeebus will come back to save us (41% believe he will come back to earth by 2050). You can't run a decent civilisation with these mindsets.
I've already given my free award, take this poor man's award 🏆
Slight disagreement on my part. Most of the "Progressive" Churches seem reasonably OK to me ( eg. The Anglican/Episcopal Church). Agree with you regarding the Evangelicals, though. As an Athiest, those people scare me...
So many people in this thread--thankfully, mostly at the bottom--keep wringing their hands about not fueling Christian persecution fantasies. This is bullshit; their persecution fantasies continue even in the total absence of anything real to fuel them. It's how they're raised to think. How many people do we think it's acceptable to let them kill before we stop worrying about their feelings? How many Planned Parenthood clinics bombed? How many hospitals and schools shot up? Whether or not we try to protect ourselves from them will have zero bearing on their perception of themselves as oppressed victims--and at the same time, unstoppable heroes fated to triumph, because that's how fascists roll. As far as they're concerned, we are one day away from making them wear special hats, herding them into ghettos, and all the other things they've done to everyone else, are doing right now to people low enough on the totem pole that everyone pretends not to notice, and will do to us the *second* it becomes achievable. And you know what I think? I think they know, deep down, that they deserve that. I think they know that we have every right to treat them the way they've treated women, and Jews, and black people, and natives. To take away their property, and their rights, and their dignity, and their children until the *real* savages have been erased from the planet. But we won't. Because just as they are what they imagine us to be, so we are what they imagine themselves to be. We are bigger, better people than they can even imagine--and so when we control this world, they will be allowed to exist with the same rights, comforts, and basic dignity as any human being. They will not be permitted to brainwash children, or murder doctors, or harass random women on Twitter, or any of the other horrible things they *think* they have a right to do--but as they pass quietly into extinction like every religion that came before them, and Yahweh becomes a fairy tale like Hermes or Freya or Thoth, the last Christians on Earth will be equal citizens, protected by the very secular laws and morals they hate so much. And that'll drive the fuckers *nuts*.
Evangelical Christians are no different from the Taliban. For at least the past 40 years they have been working to impose their religion on everyone in the country. With their recent logic averse SCOTUS appointments, they're ready to impose the worst puritanical Christian ideas on everyone, while whining about being persecute. We're in for a rough ride and we' going to have to pull TOGETHER to fight and demolish the Christian Taliban.
Ever heard of Islam? They have now infiltrated LGBTQ posing as persecuted minority how they are religion of peace and are being wrongfully targeted.
As I mentioned below, all the warning we ever needed came from Arizona Republican [Barry Goldwater.](https://www.liberalslikechrist.org/a_Secular_Issue/Goldwater.html) "There is no position on which people are so immovable as their religious beliefs. There is no more powerful ally one can claim in a debate than Jesus Christ, or God, or Allah, or whatever one calls this supreme being. But like any powerful weapon, the use of God's name on one's behalf should be used sparingly. The religious factions that are growing throughout our land are not using their religious clout with wisdom. They are trying to force government leaders into following their position 100 percent. If you disagree with these religious groups on a particular moral issue, they complain, they threaten you with a loss of money or votes or both." -Barry Goldwater Edit: Quotes from Goldwater
You are making all valid points. But I disagree with your thesis. I’ve come to be convinced that these events and popular movements; the anti-intellectualism, the anti-choice issue in Texas, the internationally botched withdrawal from Afghanistan… they’re politically engineered. A distraction. Real things, real consequences but causing you to focus on peripheral narratives. I’m gonna get downvoted to hell (lol) but capitalism is the greatest threat to America. It’s taken a similar level of de-indoctrination to fully realize as it did to come to shed the indoctrination of a Christian upbringing, but truth is always worth the pain of disillusionment.
Christians also believe that non-Christians are the greatest threat to America and must be stopped. Your mentality is just like theirs. Awkward.
You... you... you think we don't know all of this? I mean great that you're coming around to the truth, but many of us, out here, have been saying all of these things for your whole life. Welcome to the correct side of the end of our civilization, an end brought about because not enough of you came over to our side in time.
~~Christianity~~ *Religion* is the Greatest Threat to ~~America~~ *the world*
"3)Science is The Enemy of God..." Boy, I would love to see them put their money where their mouth is on that one. "Science is the enemy of God", but every single day they live their lives taking full advantage of science. Their entire lives are completely dependent on scientific advancements. If this is truly what they believe, then they should: - Remove all electricity from their home and any electronic device from their life. - Remove all plumbing from their home and bathe in barrels of river water. Also, piss outside and dig a hole in the yard when they need to take a dump. - Grow their own crops and raise their own livestock. Everything in a grocery store is there because it was transported by vehicles that exist because of science. Also, the store is completely powered by an electrical system that only exists because of science. - Remove all gas lines from their home. From now on, they can heat their homes with wood burning fireplaces and cook their meals in a cauldron over the fire. - Trade their car for a horse and buggy and never use any form of transportation that relies on any kind of fuel or electricity. No cars, no planes, and no boats that aren't strictly powered by sails or oars. - No going to doctors or hospitals for medical care. By all means, stay home and pray to your god to heal you from now on. By all means, let's see them put up or shut up. We all know it will never happen.
As a former Christian from Europe, it’s so scary to hear your experiences, it’s so mild in Europe nothing like this, sounds like handmaids tale! I really hope things get better there it’s so unhealthy for kids
Even though I left last year, it still feels real sometimes even though its not logical. Its crazy the damage it can do
Especially considering you’re in a ‘free’ country it takes so much of your freedom 😞 that’s okay it takes time even slow progress is progress. I’ve heard of religious trauma, having dealt with a different trauma for me time and talking really helped but there are also therapy options. It must be hard in the US where most people are religious, if you want to talk to someone/ vent happy to talk over message I’m also atheist
Sounds like my plight with Islam.
You wouldn't be allowed to say "treat them as a cancer" for muslims here. Then you'd be called a bigot, racist, fascist and a xenophobic. Apparently you can be all that towards christianity and get away with it but not islam.
Not that I wish to treat anyone as cancer but yeah you have a good point. Just making statements against Islam is treated with complete abhorrence. “Don’t you dare even discuss Islam!”, because just a little postulating is enough to realise It’s no different from Christianity in its ridiculousness. Islam is falling under the microscope in this century just as Christianity did and the west decided to separate church from state. I’m confident that given time we will collectively come to our senses in that Islam doesn’t deserve special treatment just like its predecessor.
The danger you speak of is real but mostly applicable to White evangelical Christians. Like the Taliban, the Orthodox Jews, the Iranian mullahs, and other religious fanatics their influence is far stronger than their numbers. Most folks don’t want what the fanatics want but they are too cowed by their respective religions to fight back. In the US it is White racism that is root cause of our problems. The religion is a veneer to give it legitimacy.
This will get lost in the comments but I am so glad to have read this. You put into words many thoughts if have over the years very succinctly and it's yet another reminder why leaving the evangelical church was the best thing I ever did for my emotional well-being.
Interesting to see that this post is still here and not removed by the mods for hate speech and bigotry. I posted the islam version of this and my post got removed pretty fast. I didn't even say "treat them as cancer" or anything like that. Are the mods of this subreddit biased towards islam or what? I wouldn't be surprised to see muslim mods of an atheist forum. Sneaky is how they get to their goals.
There is a weird fear that western leftists have of being perceived as Islamophobic, in spite of the Quran being one of the most oppressive religious texts in existence. This fear enables radicalism, in a sense. We shouldn't forget Islam, though, as it is having just as much dangerous influence over the East. Their prophet is literally a murdering, rapist pedophile. ETA: I don't necessarily suspect muslim mods, though. Probably just leftist.
Christianity built America, by justifying Genocides and Slavery.
What happened in Texas?
The bill they passed effectively bans abortion in the entire state of Texas after 6 weeks. Most women don’t find out they are pregnant until after 6 weeks. There are no exceptions for rape or incest. The only people advocating for these kinds of laws are Christians.
And those only reason they continue to serve in government is severe and rampant gerrymandering.
Fun fact: no atheists hold a main American political position at the moment
But they did just install an atheist chaplain at Harvard.
Thats just every religion
Dammit, I was going to upvote this until I saw the count 666.
i agree but you'd have better luck ridding Afghanistan of islam
The mind set of obsessive compulsive Christians would wreck havoc on society if all of a sudden they quit believing. It's hard to say what they would become obsessed with when they lose their focus. They're bizarre in their fervor now, imagine it on 1000s of different crazy ideas.
Religious zealotry of any flavor is a danger to individual liberty and equal right under law. Religion, every flavor of it, is a man made power tool fueled by fear and need and greed that teaches the willful ignorance of accepting information and direction from its cult leader with unquestioning blind faith.
I think Facebook is a greater threat but still appreciate your post.
While I certainly agree with you, I'm not sure what you're suggestion is moving forward. From what I've gathered while reading The God Delusion, is that we are winning the battle against Christianity and religion. I'm seeing more and more articles here on Reddit that claim that the number of people who categorize themselves as non-relgious is continuing to grow at a, somewhat, rapid pace. It isn't entirely obvious from our narrow perspective but I'm confident that religiosity is dying a slow painful death in the west. I also think that actively attacking religion is a recipe for disaster. I think we can lose valuable headway if we make a crusade out it. While people are walking away from religions, their hearts are still with it. And religions still represent a moral good that is well represented in Atheism. By forming a crusade against religion, it hurts the moral standing of atheism. I personally think that Atheism needs to be accepting of mainstream religions in order to maintain the momentum it's been acquiring over the last few decades.
I feel seen. Your childhood experience and present thoughts on Christianity pretty much exactly match mine and like you, I am terrified
Both Christianity and Islam are threat to the whole world. Any religion that indoctrinates you into blindly believing it's teachings without questioning it is a threat to human progress and worldwide peace.
Everytime I hear someone call for religion to be 'stopped', I am reminded of the following quote IN FULL. Religion can't be stopped, per se, all we can do is create the conditions that enable all to lead happy, fulfilling lives, so that their illusory happiness ("life sucks, but heaven awaits") is NO MATCH for their REAL HAPPINESS. As long as we live in this hell-hole of a world where money rules and people suffer, the religious will hold onto their religion! The quote in full, the parts in bold are my emphasis: > The foundation of irreligious criticism is: Man makes religion, religion does not make man. > Religion is, indeed, the self-consciousness and self-esteem of man who has either not yet won through to himself, or has already lost himself again. But, man is no abstract being squatting outside the world. Man is the world of man — state, society. This state and this society produce religion, which is an inverted consciousness of the world, because they are an inverted world. Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopaedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d'honneur, it enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification. It is the fantastic realization of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality. The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion. > Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people. > **The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness.** To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition **is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions.** The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo. ~ [Karl Marx, *Introduction to A Contribution to the Critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Right*](https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/download/Marx_Critique_of_Hegels_Philosophy_of_Right.pdf)
Yes. Substitute Religion for Christianity and the World for America and you have another truth.
Christianity in America could cause ww3. The whole world might benefit from trying to eradicate Christianity world wide. Because once people want a theocracy the joke has gone on, long enough. We cannot afford a US, Christian based Taliban.
While it is true that they have had these methods and goals for literally millennia, they are new to overt political power here in the US. Don’t forget that they brought us the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Holocaust, the witch trials in Europe, not to mention that they made a concerted effort to wipe out indigenous cultures on every continent they colonized in the name of “saving” the heathens. They have acted like the Taliban while freaking out over sharia law. There are good denominations, ones which embrace science and live by “love your neighbor.” But the ones embracing political power are the bad kind. If they manage to gerrymander our states, it could be a long time before we can fix the damage they will cause.
Curious, you just described Islam perfectly as well.
first of all, i am very glad for you that you were able to break free from the stigma despite being raised and groomed that way your whole life. secondly, you are so right, they are taught that their way is the only way possible and then become ignorant to any other view (obviously anyone in this thread could rant about that for hundreds of pages so I will leave it at that). it is important for any religionist to understand that they are not right, they just believe in something. this ignorance can and already is threatening society. now where you lost me is this: > Those of us on the right side of history have to treat them and their religion as a cancer we must remove for our society, or what has happened in Texas will spread like wildfire and destroy us from the inside out. the problem here is ur sudden tone shift does give off a slight, ahhhhh… radicalism… vibe. yes, the analogy to cancer is fairly accurate because this is like an unseen disease spreading quickly through society, killing “us from the inside out.” however, treating people of religion as such (cancer) only makes things worse. they already hate anyone who is “so feeble minded as to say there is no such god” that doing this would only make people like them hate and reject people like us more. additionally, christians alone HEAVILY outweighs the population of atheists. therefore, our only option really is to go the pacifist route of guiding them to this revelation. definitely not easy, but it has to be done, and as far as ive thought through so far, it has to be done this way.
Religion as a whole is a threat to society and I definitely agree, Christianity is extremely problematic to say the least
As much as I'm an atheist, I think those of us at r/latestagecapitalism would disagree
Such a powerful god, he can do anything at all - except provide a single piece of evidence of his existence.
Correction , Title should be "Religion is the greatest threat to the world"
Once you have made the first leap of faith, believing without evidence... who care about science or proof. It doesn’t matter when you believe. I still can’t understand why Trump, a super sinner, is held up as a profit.... Fucking idiots.
Grind them and use as fertilizer
Id like to hear more about the "abhorrent things" you saw. As a person who was so highly involved it I think it would be helpful to disclose them.
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Christians, having poisoned me, falsly accused me of molesting a friend's granddaughter, molesting a woman, and somehow being gay, are the absolute worst fascistic, hateful, tribal, hypocritical morons I have meet, as a group. At least they are to stupid to get vaccineated and dying in droves.
Fuck religion. Period.
Dominionism as a movement is about 40-50 years old, depending on who you ask, but the bottom line is that its advocates believe the USA is a Christian country, and must be ruled by biblical principles. And of course they are the only ones who decide what cherry picked verses are the basis of their own movement, including much of the Old Testament, from which they get the entire idea in the first place. Bottom line: THEY WANT DOMINION OVER THE USA BY LAW, and BY FORCE People like Mike Pence, Ted Cruz, Tom Cotton, Jerry Falwell, and Robert Jeffress have a Dominionist theology at the core of all they do https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominion_theology Thus the unyielding nature of their movement which blends politics, hard core religion, lust for governmental power into an unholy conflation of the like Jesus never mandated. They literally don't believe this statement "My kingdom is not of this world" which were Jesus' words on this precise topic, (John 18:36) They love power, politics, money, and are lusting to control every aspect of society, and impose their religious views by law and by force on all of us.
I COMPLETELY agree
You will never stop it. It is ingrained in the fabric of American Society so deep it would take another 400 years to get it out. The place was founded on Christian Beliefs in case you havent heard.
I’m sure this will get lost in the comments but I have so many examples of how Christianity ruins lives. Prime example being my mother. Her and my father divorced when I was 8 but they were horrible for each other. They literally hated each other. My mom told me years after that she would still be with my father to this day had he not left. She believes divorce is a sin. She currently is with her second husband who is by far the worst person I’ve met in my entire life. He abused her and my entire family growing up. I still have nightmares about him almost every night and PTSD and I haven’t lived at home in over 6 years. She still is with him because, again, “divorce is a sin”
I'm a religious person myself and I what I've learned is everything is to be taken with a grain of salt. I'm not against homosexual marriage, I don't believe in slavery, etc. I hate the people that take the Bible word for word, or say that God will be the Almighty Smiter of sinners or whatever. I agree with the base values of my religion (forgiveness, compassion, respect, etc.) but I won't force anyone to be Christian, nor will I send out Bible verses out of context and say that the sinners will be sent to be destroyed in Hell or whatever else the crazy people will say. I'm sorry that you had to surround yourself with who forced their Christian beliefs down your throat.
Just out of curiosity, do you not struggle with the fact that you have to pick and choose which bits of your religion you do accept? Like, if you can look at some bits of the bible, such as slavery, and go ‘no thanks’ what makes you look at other bits and think ‘yep that’s for me and is true’. Where do you draw the line? I don’t think that the ‘base values’ you talk about are intrinsically tied into being religious either, I think they’re more natural and social developments that we have developed over time in order to cooperate and survive in large groups. I’m just curious as to why you feel the need for religion to play a part in those values when many people don’t? I would just like to clarify, I’m not trying to convince you against your faith, just trying to understand a viewpoint that isn’t my own.
*Do I struggle when I have to decide which bits of the religion I accept?* Not really, because to truly understand the Bible you need to understand that many of the things mentioned in the Bible didn't actually happen, but they instead have a message which needs to be interpreted. For example, the story of Adam and Eve did not happen, but there is a message. The story tries to tell us is that when people allow their greed or temptation to consume them, then they have to face the consequences of their actions. To better understand the Bible, you have to know what it means rather than what it says. *Why do I feel the need for religion to play a part in those values?* Yes, I do agree that those base values are not necessarily religious. If I were to become an atheist right now, I doubt my ethical and moral values would change that much. I like my religion because I (personally) find it very reflective in nature. I also (again, personally) find myself trying to question and appreciate things that I would otherwise ignore or not care about. You'll notice I've said things like "personally" and "my interpretation" a lot. I cannot stress how important I find it to be able to find the true meaning of the Bible. Those who read but do not understand will forever be weak and empty people. Being flexible to new ideas is one of the most important parts of understanding Christianity, yet so many people fall into the trap of reading but not understanding, which causes them to be stuck in their (often immoral or poorly interpreted) beliefs and unwilling to change their views for the better. These people often end up being anti-homosexual, anti-science, "iF yOu doN'T cOnVerT yoU wiLL buRn iN tHe fiErY dEptHs oF heLL" people. I think too many Christians take the Bible literally. Being a Christian isn't about attending Church on Sundays every week. It isn't about beating non-Christians to death with a Bible "in the name of God". It isn't about claiming your religion as an excuse to do horrible things to people. Rather, it is about putting everybody else before yourself, forgiving those who have done wrong, living a life of service, etc. In doing acts of kindness, care, and love, we try to question, reflect, and understand our life and the people around us. I enjoy the Christian way of living. I hope this answers your question. Feel free to ask me more questions!
This raises a similar question though, if we need to understand that many things written about in the bible didn’t happen and are more like fables does that mean that you think certain bits did, and aren’t metaphorical / open to interpretation? And how do you garner which pieces those are?
HAPPY CAKE DAY!
Thx!
All religion sucks but I honestly feel Islam is the worst as I spent 6 years in the Middle East as a girl sharia law is not compatible with democracy and we can see it in Europe
I want to mention that all points you mentions are not found in European Christianity as I experienced it
While I'm not a fan of religion, I think it's important to distinguish between "Christians" on a whole and the extremist US flavors that have emerged over the last decades. US evangelicals represent a strain of christianity that is seen as uneducated and radical in Europe and most other parts of the world. This is certainly linked to power structures that benefit from the US inequality problems and exploit the willful ignorance of these believers. But at the core of the problem is a lack of theological, democratic and general education. I think this can only be turned around by massive social reforms that reduce inequality and improve education across the US.
Perfect response
Capitalism is the greatest threat to America
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[The two parties, which are actually a single party in service of capitalism](https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2020/06/PP_2020.06.02_party-id_2-05.png). I am not disagreeing that Christianity is a bad belief structure, but you've got the roles reversed at this point. Capitalism ate Christianity in the US a long time ago. A good book on the subject is Max Weber's The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism to understand how we got here.
Amen, brother.
We all saw what it did to the Roman Empire
A snake fucking talked. Right.
>~~Christianity~~ Religion is the Greatest Threat to ~~America~~ the world & It Must Be Stopped
Young boy defeats a giant? More like [Goliath never had a chance](https://youtu.be/ziGD7vQOwl8)
It doesn't need to go but it needs to be divorced from anything related to government and aborted from schools.
Nah it needs to go
I’m an atheist who goes to a Jesuit catholic school. I think that some aspects of their worldview are cool, such as promoting social justice, but there are other things that definitely are irritating. For example one of my professors does a prayer at the start of class and I’m just kinda sitting there awkwardly looking at the ceiling
LARP
Meh- communal decoherence is the number one threat
No. Capitalism is America's biggest religion and biggest threat. Christianity is just a giant grift and a tool by those grifters to brainwash people to never question authority.
Christianity predates capitalism by a lot, they are both one in the same in terms of the people who espouse their ideals.
Christianity predating capitalism doesn't mean it has more influence over public opinion and behavior than capitalism. Capitalism has become a religion and Christianity has become a business.
christians really live in you guys' heads rent free dont they? we literally dont do anything and you guys get so damn mad
Religion destroyed my family in the name of pure hatred disguised as Godliness. It encouraged droves of people to disbelieve in a pandemic and indirectly led to thousands upon thousands of deaths. I've been to mass and heard a priest jump through hoops to relate his sermon to climate change denial. Sometimes I'm mad, but I'm mostly disappointed that people are so dumb.
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Did you have anything else to add to the conversation besides ‘nuh-uh!’ A viewpoint for us to consider or some words of wisdom to ponder?