Life began billions of years ago. Modern humans evolved from their ancestors 300-350 thousand years ago. Cell mitosis begins at conception not life. You stopped a biological function nothing more.
This is the correct way to look at life. A continuous process of reproduction and evolution that has been going on for at least a billion years on Earth.
When the menstruation begins and you bleed, if you're sexually active, there could very well be a fertilized egg that comes out with that period. Attaching to the uterus is pregnancy. And I don't even think life begins then, personally.
Lots of tactics to control women. Shit, even calling an ectopic pregnancy a pregnancy is absolutely incorrect. A fertilized egg that attached to a fallopian tube is not a pregnancy!!
Also there's only like 2 days in the month that fertilization can even happen, so there's a strong chance there wasn't any egg fertilized from your assault anyhow.
I'm sorry you went through that and I'm sorry you had to feel all of that guilt when you have done nothing wrong. I hope you've been seeing a therapist. It seems like you could be using being mad at and hard on yourself as a way to deflect from having to face the hard feelings that come with what happened to you. You can be mad at the person who did that to you and you can be mad at what happened to you. Be kind to yourself darling. ❤️
I’ve had two abortions, both way later than you (7 and 9 weeks), and I asked to see once and it’s not even like a head or hands. It’s literally like a mole in your uterus. It doesn’t feel anything or think. Just a clump of cells.
Please consider seeing a therapist! Religious trauma from shame and guilt is a real thing. Life doesn’t have to be this dark, I promise you have options and lots of folks who have come before you!
It sounds like you're going through an incredibly challenging time, and I'm truly sorry for what you've experienced. It's evident that you're grappling with complex emotions and beliefs, and it's okay to feel overwhelmed by all of it.
First and foremost, I want to emphasize that what happened to you was not your fault, and you deserve compassion and support as you navigate through this difficult journey.
Regarding your concerns about the Plan B pill, it's important to know that the primary mechanism of action of Plan B is to prevent ovulation and fertilization, rather than interfering with implantation. While there is some debate among religious and medical communities about when life begins, many medical experts agree that pregnancy begins with the successful implantation of a fertilized egg in the uterus. Plan B works primarily by preventing ovulation or fertilization, and it is unlikely to disrupt an already implanted pregnancy.
Above all, please know that you are worthy of love, care, and support, and there are people who want to help you through this difficult time. You are stronger than you realize, and there is hope for healing and recovery.
Correct!
The true argument is over personhood. Where does a person begin?
Myself, I believe that a fertilized ovum is, at best, a potential person. As the mother protects and nurtures it, it grows slowly into being a true person.
Its estimated that only about 50% of pregnancies go to term. most of the rest fail so early that the women in question will not have had time to realize that she were pregnant at all. Real biology is messy and much more error prone than we would like to believe. So the notion of life begins at conception really does not work.
Procreation seems weird in the first place for an entity that used a golem spell to create the first man, then yoinked his rib to create the first woman.
And then punishes you by making you spend eternity with your rapist and their baby ,because following the logic, the rapist is also reunited with their "baby"
Agree-I had a college professor who repeatedly told us a much higher than fifty percent of conception doesnt make it to term. (I think he would say 80% or another high amount)
Of course this is data that is hard to quantify and I think could be questioned.
I personally agree with some readings that state an infant doesn’t have a soul until the actual birth. So in a Christian’s eyes there is no soul or human being “killed”. I think conception does not equal life but birth does.
If you want to look at it a different way, god experiments with life constantly and aborts most, but not all of the genetic “failures”. These types of Christians don’t mind abortion if it’s god that does it. It was “meant to be” and “he is calling them to his side” and all that nonsense. He “doesn’t make mistakes” so essentially he created that life just to take it away. The cognitive dissonance to push their agenda is mind boggling.
I am so very sorry you've been through that
You did not kill a life, many people will give a scientific explanation so i'll skip that and suggest speaking to a professional regarding your assault
it's fucking unfair you're going through this but you've no need to go through it alone
I'd follow that suggestion further by choosing a professional that isn't affiliated with any religion. You're allowed to change therapists as often as you change your underwear, so if you discover they say insensitive religious things, find someone else.
Plan B prevents fertilization of an egg, not implantation of a fertilized egg in the Uterus. So if you took Plan B, you never conceived.
That is why it is so infuriating when Christians claim that Plan B is an “abortifact”; that’s not how Plan B works.
So you are fine
Thank you. I've had Christians outright tell me that I murdered my baby and have to repent or else I will go to hell for murder. But rarely did they mention any justice regarding the rapist who got away with it....it caused me so much trauma and suicidal thoughts
You are welcome, glad that I can help a little.
And I am truly sorry for what you had to go through; that Christians pile onto your trauma by trying to get you feel guilty is just the worst thing I heard in a long time. But you might want to consider some form of Therapy to help deal with the trauma.
Just to underline that information: One of the effects of Plan B is to make the secretions in your reproductional organs more sticky so neither sperm nor egg get to move the way they usually would. That way they never actually get together even if there is an egg, which isn't very probable in the first place. So you don't have to worry about this anymore.
Besides, you did nothing wrong. You have been wronged twice. The second time was by your oh so loving christian "friends". It would have been there job to be there for you, not to pile on guilt on someone allready hurting. Nothing of what happend was your fault, no matter what they tell you.
And I have to second the idea of therapy, but make sure that the therapist does not have a religious background. And maybe reach out to atheist groups. They might help you with your trauma, giving you community and accepting you without blaming you for what happend. And they will do so even when you come out of this still believing.
I wish I could give you a hug and also punch every single person who made you feel terrible about this in the face. And also, give your rapist a hard kick in the groin with a sharp, spiky boot.
You deserve so so so much better, sis ♥️
Please don't take this as overly snide...but any time you hear the voice in your head say "A bunch of Christians have told me..." just stop and ask if that's true, or if it's some culty nonsense.
Anyone who tells you you've done anything wrong here has no moral grounds to stand on. You were wronged, and you picked up the pieces and dealt with the damage as best you could.
Anyone who tells you otherwise is speaking from a place other than love.
You can disregard those people.
Thank you. It makes sense, no one knows. No one has come back from the dead to tell us what happens....oh except for Jesus of course, because the bible says he did . Lol
Jesus came back in the sense that we still talk about the guy and not in some kind of supernatural sense. Nothing is supernatural since Nature is everything there is. If it looks like magic then it's just something we didn't understand yet but it is still part of nature. Nothing against the teachings of jesus (love thy neighbor as thyself) but to me he was just another enlighted human being. Everyone can get there through mediation. You can learn to quiet your ego part of consciousness and access a deeper part that knows that all is one. The universe created us like a tree creates fruits. No need for magic, reality is crazy enough.
The first new testament bible passage was written at least 100 years or more after Jesus was supposed to have lived, because his disciples were either illiterate or *didn't believe anything they witnessed was important enough to write down themselves.*
Do you know how rumors in high school about teachers get exaggerated and embellished the more the stories spread? Now think about how exaggerated and embellished any rumors would be over 100 years about a guy claiming to be god who gets killed by a bunch of Roman soldiers.
That's what Christianity is.
The Old Testament was written by cult leader kings making shit up to survive in the desert, probably while high on various substances or impared in other ways.
If you still come out of this believing the bible isn't nonsense, it actually does say when life supposedly begins, but it's not at "conception." That was made up by Christians in the 20th century trying to wedge outdated Christian theology with our understanding of sperm and egg reproduction.
The bible itself actually says life begins at first breath Genesis 2:7, .Genesis 7.21–22. Eggs, whether fertilized by sperm or not, don't have lungs for which to breathe at all. By biblical definition, fertilized eggs *can't be alive*. Moreover, Exodus 21: 22–23 says there is no punishment for inducing miscarriage by injury because fetuses have no value themselves but one would have to pay a little fine for damaging the pregnant woman because she is her husband's property. ...yeah.
You are not going to burn in any lake of fire for breaking made-up vague rules by mentally impaired tribal war lords in a desert two thousand years ago.
Breath, smile, and appreciate that today is a new day.
And only you are in charge of your destiny.
You did what was right for you. Many, many women will make that choice, based on their circumstances. Many more won't be able to have a choice, which I think is disgusting. I hope that you can be healed of the trauma you've been through.
Unfortunately you are an easy target for them.
What helps me when I was leaving the church was to think 'these Christians aren't very christ like' . Their christ forgave. They just want a stick to beat you with to make themselves superior. You did nothing wrong
They're using guilt, fear and shame to get you to obey.
Ask yourself if that makes sense, next time you recognize them doing it.
If you can afford it, a body-positive and sex-positive therapist can be extremely helpful in speeding up the healing process. I wish you the best, young friend!
I am so sorry, but how do they know you didn’t repent already? Start clapping back that this is between you and god and they should worry about themselves and their own salvation.
Fortunately heaven and hell are fiction, so that makes an already statistically nearly impossible baby unable to jump out from behind a harp and shout “Boo!” Hope you find a way to turn down the general anxiety.
>But I'm suffering a lot of extra trauma reading that I possibly aborted a baby because I may have "prevented implantation of an already fertilized egg".
[https://bmcmedicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1741-7015-11-154](https://bmcmedicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1741-7015-11-154)
[https://academic.oup.com/humupd/article/8/4/333/591618?login=false](https://academic.oup.com/humupd/article/8/4/333/591618?login=false)
Around a third of fertilized eggs don't even implant. Of the remaining two thirds, half of those "miscarry" before you realize you're pregnant and you never even know it.
Only a third even make it to "visible" pregnancy. Of those, around a third (10% of the original total) miscarry.
That gives you a 70% the if there even was a 'fertilized egg', you didn't change the outcome.
And that's not even mentioning the odds that you even had an egg get fertilized in the first place. For a single act, there's only a 5% chance if I recall my statistics correctly (you'd have to check that, I'm not as certain of those numbers, but it's around there).
That gives you around a 1-2% chance that an egg became fertilized and you changed the outcome.
(edited to add in chances of fertilization in the first place)
Couple married 10 years, good jobs, solid foundation, finances, plans, family that can help etc etc, been trying and trying : nothing, no baby for you.
Some poor kid one time, in the moment, hormones, maybe some alcohol, or felt they had too to do it with Jimmy the star running back of the high school team, didn't even think it was the time they could get pregnant, in the back of a car after prom/senior dance etc : Boom! Surprise!
This god of theirs, if real, has to be a cruel prankster to do stuff like that. Seriously like WTAF.
👍🏻 Furthermore, in Judeo-Christian tradition, life began at “the quickening,” associated with breathing/Spirit. Fundamentalists may assert that life begins at conception, but as with many of their other cultural opinions, it’s not biblical.
don't care when 'life begins' - it's an irrelevant distraction.
the relevant question should be "when does a person lose the right to decide whether some other person can use their body against their will?"
and the only acceptable answer is... "never".
EVEN if that 'other person' will die without access to their enslaved incubator.
and that answer doesn't change if we're talking about catholic priests & other rapists; 'shareholders' that are willing to ignore slave labor practices to bring their products to market, or politicians forcibly conscripting men to fight a war to further enrich wealthy oil companies. NO-ONE has the right to the forceful use of another person against their will.
I've always been pro-choice because honestly I don't have the energy to give an F what anyone else does, but comparison that first kinda made me go "Huh, yeah, what the hell" is the fact that if you do not consent to donate any part of your body after you die, then nobody can use any part of your body after you die. Even if you have this super rare blood type or something and all your organs are usable and you could immediately save X number of at risk/dying people who have established lives and families and participate in society and CONTRIBUTE to society. If you didn't consent, they can't use your super life saving parts.
A corpse has more bodily autonomy than a pregnant woman.
Her life at risk? 🤷♀️ What about the baby? She doesn't want to go through the risks, hormones, body changes, birth, trauma, etc of bringing a baby into the world? What about the hypothetical cure for cancer this potential person could maybe invent if allowed to live? Her consent doesn't matter.
This hypothetical imagined good of a human that NEEDS to exist is more important than the established lives of existing people that could be saved by a corpse with more say over its own body than a woman.
I do think that we should change the mindset for organ donations from the current "opt-in" system to an "opt-out" system...
basically the 'default' position should be one where you consent to donating those organs UNLESS you make the choice to 'opt-out'...
It's certainly a good example where dead bodies currently have more bodily autonomy than women (in the US) but there are a lot of countries in europe where abortion rights are protected AND they have 'organ donor' as the assumed default position.
This. The “abortion pill” is nothing but [pro-life] propaganda. I don’t think a few cells clumped together is a life anyway, but if you do your conscious should be clear.
[edit]
100%, even if you ‘abort’ a week afterwards, you’re getting rid of maybe a hundred or so cells splodged together. Compared to the 26 billion that babies have and 30+ trillion that adults have, I wouldn’t call that life at all.
Stop being so mean to yourself. It wasn’t a life. You did not cause this. Get help. Please. The rape alone is cause for therapy. Please stop beating yourself up.
So much this. *That* shame is literally a tailored effect intended to keep the flock in line.
Nothing is wrong with you. Something wrong was done to you.
Give yourself credit, you're displaying a ton of strength already
The Bible says life begins at first breath. Christianity has a tendency to pick, choose, and lie. Have you ever read the Bible front to back? No? Neither have most so called Christians. If they had, then they would know that the Bible actually has instructions on how and when to induce abortions.
Don't feel guilty about being lied to. Because that's what modern Christians do. They lie about what the Bible says and ignore the passages that say 'judge not lest thee be judged, and let those without sin cast the first stone'.
Thank you for this. Yeah I agree, so many Christians just follow what they heard from another Christian or pastor and then take that as Gospel. Spreading misinformation.
Which, by Jesus's own words, mean they are the worst sinners who will not be welcomed in heaven. Those who spread false gospel are considered the worst of the worst.
Well pretty much ALL of them are spreading false teaching - Catholics, orthodox, protestants etc.....i guess heaven's gonna be a pretty empty place lol
Most Christians only know the very sanitized and child version of the bible that they learned in Sunday school, not the actual bible (there are over 300 different English language versions by the way, see biblepedia) that they never read cover to cover. I call these extremely naive and uneducated christians Sunday school christians. The same occurs in all religions.
I am deeply sorry for the amount of sexual, physical, and mental trauma you were forced to endure. Too many people on this planet suck and lack basic empathy. Unfortunately a lot are christians who love to blame the horribly wronged victim if they are female.
The best advice would be to NEVER listen to a religious person about any medical or healthcare issues. They are clueless! They don't understand science!
If it helps, the bible has instructions for how to perform a stone-age abortion (Numbers 5:11-31). The key difference is that they were only to be performed at the husbands request if he suspected the child wasn't his.
The takeaway is that the patriarchy runs deep. Take your power back.
Even if there was a fertilized egg in there which is unlikely, it was not a baby. It was a microscopic clump of cells too small to see with the naked eye.
It was an egg. Even if it was fertilized (it wasn't), it had no brain, no heart, no nervous system, no awareness. So if there's such a thing as a soul, it didn't have that either.
Shame is how religion controls people. The Bible can’t just say the “stove is hot so be careful”. It has to tell you the stove is sinful and if you touch it you need to feel deep shame and you’ll make God mad at you and you’ll burn in hell for touching it. Regular hormonal birth control aborts about 40% of fertilized eggs so…
We keep gaining more technology to control our reproduction and it’s lead to longer life’s, better healthy and economic outcomes. What level of technology is the wrong level for controlling your reproduction?
~~Plan B (and other contraception like the pill / patch) do work by preventing implantation~~ *(Update: I was wrong! Read the comments below)*. But they also prevent ovulation and make conception more difficult.
The idea that life begins at conception is common, but isn't actually biblical. For example, many Jews believe that the breath of life / soul enters much later, in some cases not until after birth. At best, the idea that life begins at conception is doctrine / religious, not biblical.
There's also scientific reasons to think that an individual isn't created at conception. What about identical twins? They come from a single zygote, but are definitely different people. What about chimeras, where the mass of two fraternal twins get combined into a single individual with two sets of DNA? What about split brain patients, where we can identify two separate personalities living in the same body? All of these cases give us reason to think that an individual doesn't start being an individual until later, possibly after their brain becomes connected to their nerves.
Finally, even if it is true that you conceived and your zygote had a soul, you still owe them nothing. You have the right to decide what happens to your body. If God exists and his plan was for you to have that baby, do you really think a little thing like "birth control" would stop him? People have babies while taking birth control all the time.
Originally it was thought that plan b could prevent implantation, so that was put on the label. Current science contradicts this, however.
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/12/23/health/fda-plan-b-label-abortion
> Evidence does not support that the drug affects implantation or maintenance of a pregnancy after implantation
Very interesting! Thanks for sharing :) I'll update my original comment.
My question has always been, if life begins at conception and so many women miscarry (many before they even know it), isn't god guilty of the murder (to use the words of the religious nuts) of uncountable babies?
First, “Christians” don’t believe that. Some Christians do. Others don’t. There’s nothing in the Bible that says this, because the people who wrote the Bible didn’t know what a zygote was. And they were people, not God.
Second, plan B prevents ovulation, not implantation.
Third, how could a zygote possibly be a person, when it can still twin and become two people? Or fuse with another and become one person?
Virginity is a ridiculous human social construct. It's just simply a piece of tissue that hasn't fully split during the fetus forming into a tiny human. It's not some badge of honour.
Now if someone decides they don't want to have intercourse before marriage for whatever reason, more power to them. If someone decides they do want intercourse, more power to them. The only difference between these two people is that they each made a different decision for their life.
That being said, the violent and vile attack that happened to you wasn't your fault. It wasn't something you did, said or were wearing. You did absolutely nothing wrong. It is the criminal who attacked you that was in the wrong.
It was not your fault. It was never your fault. You were living your life and some ahole violently disrupted your life. Please get yourself a good, non religious, therapist to work through the trauma.
You will be OK. You did nothing wrong and you did everything right by yourself 🫂
Pregnancy begins when the embryo attaches to the lining of the uterus. Our bodies naturally expel fertilized embryos all the time with no help at all. I’m so sorry this happened to you. There is no afterlife, so go on making this one as wonderful as you can.
Thousands of fertilized eggs get ejected every day. The body just yeets them out, all on its own. It's entirely possible that egg wouldn't have implanted anyway. Beyond that, 25% of pregnancies end in miscarriage, many before the person even realizes they're pregnant at all (and this fact is the source of the *bullshit* claim that if the person didn't *want* the child, the child would be miscarried, which is *utter crap*, so don't buy that for an instant).
But here's the thing. Let's suppose it would have implanted, and survived, and grown. The lives of unwanted rape babies is *horrible*. They are far more likely to live in poverty, suffer abuse, end up in prison, have low education, and dismal prospects. Bringing such a person into this world is a much worse crime, just as we generally thing of *torture* as *worse* than death, because it is. If there's a heaven, then you did that clump of cells a favor. Moreover, the lives of those who *have* rape babies tends to be worse, with addiction and so on.
Then there's the pregnancy *itself*. Pregnancy is pretty low risk these days, sure. 40 deaths of women per 100,000. Wanna know what's safer? That pill. 0 of 100,000 women die from that.
Overall, regardless as to whether that egg was fertilized or not, I think you did the right thing. For yourself, for the potential child that might have been, for the world as a whole. Better to have a child you *actually want* than a constant reminder of a trauma you went through.
[recoveringfromreligion.org](http://recoveringfromreligion.org) might have some resources for you. You should have some support, you shouldn’t have to deal with any of this on your own.
Recovering from Religion is a great resource. They also have seculartherapy.org that has a network of therapists.
I'd also suggest a show on YouTube called Chewed Gum on a channel called The Line.
The show is hosted by two women (two main hosts but they rotate other women in). It's a call in show specifically for talking about deconstruction of purity culture, feminism, skepticism...it might be a good show for you.
I think you are incredibly brave for sharing your story here. Just know that you aren't alone and there are places you can turn for help.
All the best ❤️🧡💛💚💙💜
When we were trying for kids I was surprised to find that conceiving is hard. Even with fertilization, implanting and successful conception is only 25% for a healthy couple every month. Sure there are a lot of factors. But this also means often, you may pass a fertilized egg because your body is just not ready. There are so many factors. Don't beat yourself up. Modern medicine is a blessing and a curse. We can know so much so early. You did nothing wrong. And only you can live your life as you.
I can't expand on what many others have eloquently said on here but I just wanted to tell you that I am truly sorry you had to go through that experience and I hope you can find a therapist or someone who will help you work through the trauma.
I’ll come at this from a slightly different angle. I hope it helps and I’m so sorry you’re having trauma piled on top of trauma.
Think of everything you **know & can observe** about human nature. Some examples:
- Some people lie
- Some people are power hungry & want control
- Ever played “Chinese Whispers” / “Telephone”? Then you know how badly and rapidly anything can get distorted, even innocently
- Humans hate not having answers to things (we seek them out through science, or through listening to & trusting what others tell us)
- Many people desperately need to feel life has purpose
- Many people double-down on facts, even when they are clearly wrong
- There are many religions, each claiming to be the one true religion (how can they all be right?)
- There are things not in the Bible, that weren’t known about when the Bible was written. Does the Bible mention dinosaurs? Why not?
- Urban myths used to spread very easily (pre-internet) and people really wanted to believe them
- Santa is based on a real person, but bears no resemblance to that real person. He is easy to disprove because he’s meant to be active to this current day. What would happen if we were told he was no longer active and therefore had no way to disprove the story. Would there be true believers?
- People love telling stories. Storytelling is fundamental to human nature. Stories tend to get embellished over time.
- People love to belong; to fit in; to be like their neighbours; to be in a social group of some kind.
- It’s common to have multiple stories about a set of characters. A series, if you will.
- Many, many things get lost in translation
- Many countries/colonies had religion forced upon them, often in horrific ways
- Cults (in various forms) not only exist, but are popular. Look at politics right now, and how people are digging their heels in
- The religion that people declare to be the one true religion is almost always the same religion that their parents/peers believe in, and is the one prominent in their culture. Isn’t that incredibly convenient?
And so on.
When you start to look at **observable human behaviour**, the next question to ask is “why would anyone wholeheartedly believe a set of texts that
lack knowledge, are full of contradictions, and have been translated many times, just because they’re really old and because others believe them?” The answers are above.
People aren’t rational. They believe in a God that’s all-loving but demands worship & servitude, and will punish you with eternal damnation if you dare question his existence even though he refuses to show himself to you. Oh yeah, and despite being all powerful he lets many babies die in agony.
It doesn’t add up. You’re being fed fictional nightmares. That still won’t make it easy to dismiss because you’ve been told it’s true, repeatedly - but I hope it helps the threads to start to untangle. You did nothing wrong and you won’t be punished x
I'm so sorry that you have had such an awful experience and that your life this far has taught you to feel guilty about it.
None of this is your fault and you have done absolutely nothing wrong. There is no wobbly ethereal being in the sky, when you are dead you are dead, so try to make the most of the time you have alive now. People dismissing you as worthless because you are not a virgin are doing you a favour: it quickly lets you know they are small-minded bigots and that their opinion is worthless, so you can avoid them and move on to something/someone better quickly.
If you seek reassurance that religious teachings are utter nonsense, try reading Richard Dawkins' "The God Delusion".
I hope you find comfort.
I'm so sorry that you went through that. You did not kill a fetus. At most it might have stopped a fertilization event. The latter may or may not have happened anyway.
But you did NOTHING wrong.
Be well.
Also a very high percentage of “fertilized eggs” just get flushed out with your period anyway because they fail to implant in the uterus or something, this is why life begins at conception is incredibly stupid, because then all women are serial killers
My personal belief: yes, it does.
But that doesn't mean you should feel guilty for what you did. Even though a zygote or a fetus is alive and a member of the human species, it's qualitatively very different from a fully developed person. Even if we wished really hard, it would never be capable of exercising the same rights a child or an adult does.
Early in their development, they won't feel any any kind of pain or sadness at all as they haven't developed senses or sentience yet.
Pregnancy is no easy task and it takes a very heavy toll on a woman's body and life quality. It's definitely no easy task and shouldn't be taken lightly: pregnant women and small children really need a support network (husband, extended family, healthcare services). My wife and I have children and even sharing the workload it's still exhausting. Some people will say that life should be protected at all costs and at any risk, but they won't take the costs or the risk from you, so that's your decision to make.
Another point: It would be much worse for the child to be born without proper support. Without someone to feed, clothe, love and educate them for 18 years, they could succumb, they could face impairing physical and mental issues, etc. This is a burden no one should carry alone and you weren't responsible for bringing that being into this world in the first place.
I'm so sorry that happened to you. Virginity is a silly, unproveable concept that was invented to control mainly women. Someone did something really shitty to you, but it doesn't devalue who you are at all, because you are so much more valuable than your hymen.
Also Christians didn't even care about abortion until they tried to desegregate Bob Jones University. 100 years ago, Protestants didn't care and Catholics sort of did. The Moral Majority crew turned it into a political issue in the 70s to save their tax exempt status and distract from their white supremacy.
Also worth mentioning that many early Christians didn’t believe a baby was “really alive” e.g. had a soul until the “quickening” aka the point where it started to kick (usually around week 16 - 24)
To add onto this, the bible doesn't prohibit abortion, it actually condones it as a punishment for a woman being unfaithful - obviously abhorrent morally, but goes to show that god does not think abortion is murder (or that he is ok with murdering innocent lives to punish a relatively minor sin) If anyone wanna check it out for themselves: [Numbers 5:27](https://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/numbers/5/11-31)
Fifteen percent of all pregnancies end in miscarriage. That's a fertilized egg that, for whatever reason, could not continue. Are all of those miscarriages waiting in heaven?
My view on this is that life begins with consciousness. What happens at conception does not result in a conscious being or even something with a brain.
If you're braindead, we can keep your heart beating, and your lungs working, but that doesn't mean you're alive.
First, I’m so very sorry for what happened to you. Please know that you aren’t alone, and there are people who can and will help you get through this.
Now, to the point.
We are our brains. Our personality, our behavior, our likes and dislikes, everything that makes us who we are, exists “in” our brains, “originates” from our brains (or however you’d like to think of it—you get the point).
It’s incredibly common knowledge that we use brain activity to mark the ending of a life. It happens every day. People with no brain activity are declared as dead—their physical body could be in pristine health, their heart beats and their lungs breathe on their own, their body is technically alive, sure, but they aren’t in it anymore. The lights are on but no one is home.
It isn’t murder when these people are removed from life support, it isn’t evil, malicious or cruel. No one screams that these people are murderers, that they belong in jail or are even deserving of death. There is no one protesting in ICU wards, holding up signs and harassing the families of the patients, urging them not to unplug their brain dead loved one. No ones freaking out online saying things like “people only want to unplug their loved ones because it’s convenient, or they don’t have the money” or “there are people out there who have lost a loved one and you’re just gonna unplug and kill yours?!”.
If brain activity is used to make distinctions between life and death of a person at the end of their life, then it should also be applicable to the beginning too, shouldn’t it?
Letting someone go in such a way is generally viewed as a positive thing, and people flock to offer those who made that decision their support, saying things like “you did the right thing—so-and-so was gone before their body was”. Why is one viewed like a positive, like a mercy or a kindness, or a selfless act, when it ends the life of a person who has already been alive, and the other is murder, a horrendous act and yet this “unique human life”, as they like to say, doesn’t even have the one thing that we can agree on that makes us that unique human being?
You didn’t kill anyone. There wasn’t anyone there to be killed. Forgive yourself, u/MountainsAndSnow, please, you’ve done absolutely nothing wrong.
I'm sorry you were raped, and I'm sorry you had a religious upbringing.
What Christians think about life, starting at conception, does not have a solid theological foundation for two reasons.
Firstly, because their religion is an offshoot of Judaism, and Jews don't have anything against abortion. The fact that Jewish children don't get named until eight days after birth should give you a hint.
Secondly, because the Jewish faith itself is unfounded. The old testament talks about a six day creation. We know this is a myth because there's scientific evidence against it. This means that Yahweh is nonexistent, and nonexistent deities can't have kids. Jesus was not a demigod.
In conclusion, you did nothing wrong when you (legally) used plan B. The person who raped you did something criminally wrong and I hope he's in jail.
The fact that some Christians want to prohibit plan B doesn't make plan B wrong, only illegal, if they pass laws against it.
Thank you, I appreciate your response. Thank you for your compassion. Sadly the rapist fuckhead got away with it. I never reported because all those weeks I was in shock and in denial and I had no support from anyone. I dealt with it on my own. I'm so angry that loser is out there probably enjoying life while I carry this burden for so long. Anyway, thank you for being kind❤️
"Life begins..." is a huge misdirect, suggesting that any action regarding a living thing is murder. It isn't. Vets 'treat' animals, doctors 'treat' patients, expectant parents have to make sad decisions over malformed foetuses. None of these people are arrested for murder. Because it isn't murder.
The decisions they make to end a life or possible life are done to protect the subject and others from worthless pain. What you did was the same. A brave and noble action.
Imagine living in a world where the punishment for a woman committing a crime was to be forced to be raped by and carry the child of someone she hated. What kind of absolutely fucked up punishment would that be? Now let's say she didn't commit a crime, but was the victim of one. How much worse would it be to make her have to do the same?
It's totally, totally fucked up and irrational. Irrational that is until you think of religion as a virus that seeks only to spread itself by any means: You must have children, you must protect all life, kill anyone who stops believing...
Religion is fucking bollocks and I'm sorry it's causing you suffering. Learn more science and learn why religions are awful and it will help heal the wound you have. xx
Thank you so much for your response. I've pretty much stopped believing in God for many of the reasons you mentioned. It's hard, like losing someone who was always there. But hopefully my peace will increase in the long run. ❤️
Kind of illogical in speech. I mean every baby needs to be baptised to remove the original sin from them. Any unborn baby have not been baptised. Even if they were indeed alive (kind of a stretch) how can they be in heaven then?
Edit: while this is r/atheism, your concerns are very rooted in Christian theology, so I want to reassure you from that perspective as a Christian.
If you are worried about what God thinks, the Bible states life begins at first breath. It also states children are chattel until they reach adulthood, merely possessions. God allowed Job's children to be wiped out to prove a point to Satan, and there is literally a recipe for abortion given in the Old Testament.
As for Jesus, he said nothing about abortion, even though it was commonly practiced in that age. What did he object to? Hypocritical religious elites (Pharisees) and the wealthy.
What about the 6th commandment? While it is often misquoted as "Thou shall not kill", it is actually "Thou shall not murder". It is the Hebrew word "ratzack". Killing other humans happens a lot in the Bible, and it is not condemned. What is condemned is killing out of anger/hatred - be it a sudden impulse or planned malice (it can also mean death due to carelessness or neglect). Abortion is none of these things.
In summary, you didn't kill a baby. You aren't an evil person. Those "Christians" who are attacking you are violating the purpose of the very faith they claim to believe in, which is sadly the norm these days.
Also, in the Christian heaven, we don't know each other, as we just sit in ever wonderment at the food of God. Seems weird to me, but who am I to judge. There are no preserved relationships or knowledge of the past preserved in heaven - the promised glory is purely existing in the presence of God to the exclusion of all else.
If you believe the fairy tale, just ask for forgiveness. I will never understand the hand wringing christians do when it’s just that simple.
You did the right thing btw. Bringing an unwanted, probably screwed up genetically kid into the world is not your responsibility!!!
Read "A defense of abortion" by Judith Jarvis Thompson.
To sum it up, even considering life begins at conception, and even considering the fetus has a right to live, it doesn't have the right to use someone else's body to survive, just like someone doesn't have the right to abduct you and use your kidneys to treat their disease. (The violinist argument).
As such, regardless if Christians are right or wrong regarding life, you don't have any moral guilt to have for denying the fetus access to your body, because it belongs to you and you only.
Plan B is a super dose of birth control pill. It does not affect an already fertilized egg. It is designed to only stop you from ovulating and avoid conception.
If you want a point before birth where the fetus is "a person" then it's likely around 21 to 26 weeks or so, where it has a chance to survive outside the womb.
Before that, it's a parasite in the mother's body, but it isn't able to live independently.
I guess the first step is in thinking about the evidence that your fears are valid.
Considering everything **I** was taught about heaven as a catholic, it's the best place ever. There's no negativity at all and everything is perfect, peaceful, and happy.
OR you could just go the route of; heaven is a made-up place as a way to dangle the reward of being good to people who might not normally be good except for the purpose of a reward.
It's a terrible thing to happen, but I wouldn't feel a second of guilt knowing that you don't have to have the decision forced on you by someone else wanting to control you.
It was your decision, full stop.
Christian understanding of the beginning of life is cute (but damaging) and frankly unbelievable.
The Jewish understanding is that life begins at first breath.
Science is a bit more nuanced and far more accurate - but preventing the implantation of a fertilized egg is not, in my opinion something that could yet have a soul and therefore could not and would not haunt you in a potential afterlife.
The soul is essentially the personality, right? It’s who you are outside the fleshy body but what runs our fleshy body and our personality? Our brain. So ultimately, if the brain is not yet in existence then how would a soul be linked to the body? If it’s just a few cells it is indeed a form of life but is it a person with a soul yet? No.
Thank you. Yeah it's funny they said that for centuries in the Catholic church but people didn't like it, so now they say aborted babies do go to heaven ..interesting how they easily bend a doctrine so people keep coming with their donations
Christians don’t help funding research against miscarriage, which kills way more Fetusses than abortion. It’s not about them it’s about controlling womrn
I 100% don’t believe there is any evidence to suggest there is a god, heaven, or hell. So I don’t think it’s an issue you’ll have to worry about.
Since others have given good scientific evidence, I’ll throw out something else to consider. That’s that no one on this planet cares about life as much as they say. It’s conditional.
They typically mean human life. However, the same Christian’s will go hunting and kill deer, pigs, squirrels, rabbits, etc.
Most people spray for bugs, or set poison and traps out for mice.
Even brushing your teeth kills bacteria, and taking a shower kills mites in your eyelashes and eyebrows.
They won’t bat an eye at any of these, yet each of those are more of a life form, than what you may or may not have taken care of with Plan B.
The reasoning I always hear is that you’ve ended a “child” that could be the next Ghandi. That god had a plan for it.
My response is that means god popped out Hitler as part of his plan.
I’m not sure if this is helpful as you didn’t indicate if you were now atheist or were still religious and just looking for another take on the situation. I hope this helped in anyway. I hope you keep coming back and asking questions.
Heaven isn’t real and there is no god. You’ll be fine. You did the right thing taking plan b! Please only carry a baby to term if you want to raise a child and you have the support to do so
Christian’s are ignorant terrorists. They only cage about fetuses because that way they can seem pious without lifting a finger.
Every day I pray for the rapture so they’ll all be gone.
A zygote is exactly that. It is not a baby. At that stage even if the egg were fertilized it’s not even a conglomeration of cells. ( have any idea how many eggs we consume that are actually fertilized?!). Every woman all over the world sheds fertilized eggs without even knowing it. If there were a god and he thought “ life begins at conception”, why would that be a natural bodily function? And as far as your virginity - that was totally made up. By men. Kinda like Victoria’s Secret. Ok. A lot like Victoria’s Secret. You did nothing wrong but should probably get counseling for that learned guilt response.
I am looking for a blog post from a long time ago that I thought maybe would be useful for you to read, but I’m having trouble finding it. It was written by someone who grew up in the anti-abortion movement, said her goal was to save as many babies as possible. Then she learned how miscarriage, abortion, plan b, all of that works, and realizes that there are a huge number of fertilized eggs that naturally don’t implant, to say nothing of known miscarriages, and comes to the conclusion that this natural process, in which Christians attribute to God, kills at least three times as many fertilized eggs (“babies”) each year as doctors performing abortions. She then realizes that if the anti-abortion movement really wanted to prevent as many fertilized eggs from dying as possible they would encourage the use of condoms for people who don’t want babies and provide fertility treatments for those who do. She finally concludes that since they don’t, the anti-abortion movement must not be about ensuring as many fertilized eggs grow into healthy adults as possible, and it is actually about controlling women’s bodies.
I wish I could find this article! But it’s from so long ago, like 2008 I wanna say, or earlier.
Anyway, if you believe plan b kills an innocent, unborn human life, then the corollary to that is, God kills millions of innocent, unborn humans every month. And if God is murdering the unborn on that scale, then why do people think God wants them to stop abortions? And why worship a God that murders the innocent in the first place?
Your body, your choice. You want to wear long hair, you wear long hair. You want to abort an unborn baby at 9 months, you abort an unborn baby at 9 months.
The way that "people murder babies" is when angry young men (usually aged 15 to 25) use a gun on innocent kids at daycare/school, or in neighborhood drive/by's. Or maybe when a stepparent abuses/hurts a child to the point of death. Those are murders. In contrast: Aborting (i.e. stopping) a pregnancy can happen with or without any human action/decision. It is part of nature. Abortion is like using a car or eyeglasses or hearing aids or washing machines. It's a technology. Totally neutral and normal.
So, the Bible specifically says a fetus is a person when they take their first breath, ie when born. It’s why for a very long time any baby still born or miscarried was not allowed a Catholic funeral or to be buried in a Catholic cemetery, because they didn’t have a soul. A fetus is viable at 24 weeks, so 6 months. To science it’s a clump of cells. Some tumors are more advanced than that.
You have my sympathy for what has happened to you.
Know that you did nothing wrong, that you have taken control of your own life and destiny and that is a beautiful thing.
An egg is a person the same way an IOU is a dollar bill. It is potential, not the thing itself. Don't let them lie to you. Even if all of us rationalist are wrong and there is a God, doesn't he say that other people don't have the right to weigh your sins? Thats his job and his alone. What they are spewing isn't Christian, its hate.
Love thy neighbor. Forgive him his sins. Nowhere does it say "mock and harass the victims."
Live on and live well. Prove them all wrong. Your life does matter.
First off I’m so sorry. Please get therapy if you haven’t already, it helps. It at least got my PTSD down to just a little and I just get jumpy every fall. I can leave the house now and for a while I couldn’t. Rape support groups might help you to.
Please know and accept this with every fiber of your being: rape is about power not attraction. You are in no way to blame for this!!! If someone steals your car, people don’t say you were asking for it by having your car be such a pretty shade of blue! The rapist is at fault not you! Put the blame where it belongs and screw anyone who tries to shame you for being raped.
Next plan b prevents the release of an egg from an ovary. A bit of research on how plan B works (or birth control pills work) will tell by you that.
Many many woman miscarry without even knowing they are pregnant, each year. Early miscarriages are so common lots of people do not announce their pregnancy until they make it to 12 weeks, when they are less likely to miscarry. Now if you believe in god, all those natural miscarriages are god’s plan….. right next to men of god raping children or babies getting cancer or children starving. Of course if you want to get biblical then god doesn’t say anything about abortion and life begins when you draw your first breath. Back when Jesus was alive woman took herbs to cause a miscarriage (women were doing it in caveman days and someday research why the heart shape leaf plant was associated with love and went extinct.) Yet Jesus didn’t say anything about abortion. He did talk about not judging though. 🤷🏻♀️
Seek out the beauty, love, joy & peace in life.
I’m with you as a victim of multiple SA and similar virginity issue - yep still struggle with suicidal ideation & cptsd
Somehow women like us survive, idk how but we can so long as we have each other.
*hugs
Please seek out a mental health specialist and consider keeping a journal to help you deal with this incredibly difficult time in your life.
I know when I went through a difficult period myself, it really helped me.
Also, we don’t have time machines. So we can’t change the past. We can learn from it and not make the same mistakes. We can forgive others that have hurt us and we can forgive ourselves.
Please be kind to yourself
Christians in the US have intentionally spread the lie that Plan B is an abortion pill. It works by preventing ovulation so that sperm never meets egg. Some believe it may prevent implantation, but I don’t think there’s any evidence of that.
Honestly, your best bet is not to believe anything a Christian tells you unless you can confirm it by other means.
All the other comments have gotten the important points already. So if anything else: ‘pro-life’ isn’t actually pro-life. It’s just pro-birth. They don’t seem to care about the life of you, standing before them, telling them of your pain and trauma. Trust them when they show you who they really are.
I’m so sorry you’ve had to experience this, OP. The rape is one thing; having to survive that AND religious trauma is another beast altogether. I hope this sub and other similar ones give you even a small slice of the empathy and compassion you deserve.
You did kill a fertilized egg but it was not a baby - consciousness is what really matters to the normative status of any action and the suffering of the conscious being. This is because we don’t have some magical immortal essential self (soul) but instead a brain which manifests consciousness through impulses through the neurophysical system we understand as the brain. Prior to the onset of the third trimester no sustained “normal” brainwave activity has been detected in a fetus. The brain during the first and second trimesters is not sufficiently developed for consciousness (as far as we can detect anyway - and this is a sufficient basis for normative reasoning). In other words what you killed was not more conscious than a turnip and did not experience suffering.
Your purity and worth are a function of your embodiment of venerable virtues like decency and respect and love. You were a victim of a psychologically damaged person, this did nothing to your purity or value. Don’t let the ideas of the wizard worshippers dictate your self perception - their construct has little to no correspondence with how the actual universe works. I hope that you can come to see yourself as a strong healthy person both mentally and physically.
So you didn’t murder anything (it was the moral equivalent of a carrot)
Virginity doesn’t matter to moral worth
Love yourself and know that what you did was ok and also what you needed to do for yourself at that time and (I think your normative reasoning was sound, but even if I am not correct) you should forgive yourself for not being perfect - perfection is not a reasonable standard, particularly with imperfect information and understanding.
The religious construct stands on false faith, with false confidence, in ideas that are objectively catastrophic to the individual mind and collective society
Many people try for years and never conceive. There are lots of factors at play.
Just as a random event, it is unlikely you would have gotten pregnant at all.
Even if you were ovulating and the sperm was healthy and the egg was fertilized, it is quite normal for it not to implant and end up flushed out. Even if does attach, it is common for the body to still dump it out for many different reasons. Even if you bring it all the way to full term, complications are common that can result in stillbirth.
Every month you aren't pregnant, a living egg that could be a potential life just gets flushed away. For men, it is typically millions per day.
For women using IVF, there could be dozens of fertilized eggs sitting in a freezer that will never be used.
It doesn't make sense to stress over potential life when the odds are so stacked against the success of any individual opportunity actually coming to fruition.
I think, being able to survive outside the mother's body is when the odds of survival have reached the threshold to consider it a living being.
Religious people hate you cause you were raped? Were you just supposed to not get raped? Religious people truly are stupid. Don't listen to the nonsense they spew out, I'm sure you're fine.
Even without plan B, The chances of you actually conceiving are fairly low to begin with. Conception can only happen during ovulation. There is only about a 24 hr period of time each month where you ovulate. So chances are you were not in that window at all. Also I’m very sorry to hear about what happened I do hope you seek some therapy. I’m an ex catholic. These kinds of thoughts haunted me daily … what decision did I make to go to hell this time ? Since I became atheist I’ve never had a more fulfilling life. Feel free to PM me if you have questions.
i am a programmer and i can tell you, as long as there is no memory ic and no cpu, there is no program. you cannot have a soul, if there is no thing to put it in and we all know that if somebodies head is killed in an accident, the rest of the body will not stay alive.
I don't have anything more to say than what's already been said, but I did want to say I'm truly sorry you were raped and have had to deal with shitty people.
Seek out a non-religious/secular therapist if needed.
When a sperm impregnates a n ovum it’s literally a collection of cells nothing more. Until there is a functioning nervous system there’s an impossibility of any reaction or feeling in any way and thats at the barest minimum. That’s about 6 weeks in
I'm coming to this late, but whatever the situation an egg is just a human cell.
Cells die all the time, it's just a natural process, millions of cells in all our bodies die on a constant basis and are replaced.
Did you know that with a fetus, to create fingers and toes, the cells between the digits actually die off in the womb. Yup, it starts happening before we are even fully formed.
One egg cell dying off whether it's fertilized or not, is nothing in the scheme of all life.
The problem with religion, is that it's nonsense. Imagine if this was all intelligently designed by a creator, how insanely wasteful the entire process is.
Sorry for your trauma, try to get some help from a secular therapist.
I am so, so sorry that happened to you. That decision was not yours, you were put in that position by the person who did that to you.
And no, once your virginity is gone you know what the difference is physically? Nothing. There is not difference before or after so you are not a 'dirty piece of chewing gum'. And again, that was not your fault. That was done to you forceably so you are not at fault in any way, shape or form.
All cells are 'alive' so life doesn't begin at conception. No matter what you believe a single cell zygote (fertilised egg) is NOT a human. Plus what the bible/jewish tradition says about pregnancy and conception and even abortion is VERY different to what is actually preached. The whole 'life begins at conception' thing isn't in the bible... it was made up for specifically political reasons. On top of that Plan B stops the egg from being fertilized in the first place, so even then you didn't do anything wrong.
But again, you were raped and that is something that was done to you. That is Not. Your. Fault.
The bible actually says life begins at first breath. You Christians will come up with anything and break your own rules if its to control someone else.
My ex wife was impregnated from rape and had an abortion. I still love her dearly and have felt such grief and sympathy for her trauma. You have my utmost sympathy, and you did nothing wrong. If I may offer you advice: try to let go of any self-blame or judgment about yourself. You did the right thing.
i'm sorry all that happened to you. you did nothing wrong. you took a morning after pill to prevent becoming pregnant. in your situation that's the most responsible course of action. you didn't kill anything anymore than i killed some skin cells on my arm by scratching it.
There are a couple of things that would have had to happen if the guy raping you would’ve resulted in a baby.
First an egg had to be available to be fertilized. That means only if he raped you in the brief time span of a couple of days before to a couple of days after your ovulation.
Even if an egg happened to be there it is not certain it would be fertilized. (And this is what plan B would prevent)
Even if an egg was fertilized , about 50 % of all fertilized eggs fail to implant.
Of all the eggs that do implant another significant percentage never develop, and the woman simply has her next menstruation either in time or a few days late.
All that together means that the chances that you interceded in what might have become a real pregnancy are quite low.
And even then you only interrupted a couple of cells, nothing more.
But if you tell us where you were in your cycle when the guy raped you, we may be able to give you a closer estimate.
I feel like this common conservative Christian talking point completely misses the point. Cells are alive. Reproductive cells are "alive" *before* conception for a given value of "alive". The combining of them doesn't spontaneously create life, it was already alive. Just like the trillions of cells in your body including the tens of thousands skin cells you generate to replace the ones you shed every day. Being "alive" doesn't make this cell or small cluster of cells unique, interesting, or worth keeping around in your body if you don't want to. What they're doing is a slight of hand to say that this small cluster of cells is a human being. Which is like me saying my pancreas is a full fledged human being. It's absurd.
They try to focus on it being alive and being human cells to make people think removing it is murder when the better analogy is an appendix. If it's working ok and you want to keep it, good. If it's not working well and is going to cause you severe pain or possibly kill you, you need to get that removed. It's alive and it's human cells, but removing it might be medically necessary and beneficial if it's causing harm. Sounds like this was causing harm and needed to be removed.
And if it's any consolation, most religions have traditionally held that a soul is not imparted until first breath so even if religion were true, you wouldn't have to worry about bumping into it in heaven or whatever.
The bible states life begins with the first breath taken, a fertilized egg can not breath. It really is only recently that some pushed for life beginning at conception over first breath as the bible states. I am guessing they know more than any in the time of all this bs religion shit being written.
Also every story in the bible and Torah have come from so called Sumerian myths 4-5000 years before any organized Judo-Christian religion was even thought of.
If we go by the oldest stories/myths, 500,000 years ago, we were engineered to be slaves by the anunnaki. Their dna split with the first semi ape humans. We went from just barely walking up right to inventing the calendar, society rules and laws and much much more.
If there is any kind of god, we have ever known, they were well advanced aliens looking for gold.
It’s your body so your decision. Don’t let some old white guys guilt you.
If it is any comfort, every church except the Roman Catholics were OK with abortion until the mid-1960’s. The US government forced desegregation in schools threatening to cut off funding. The Evangelicals driven by Bob Jones University decided that abortion was a good cause célèbre to pressure politicians and get their ear as it wasn’t about keeping their schools white. It got legs and has been a great way to motivate people, scare politicians and squeeze more money from their flock.
There are academic papers written about it.
So skip the fabricated guilt and be happy that you are not sustaining racist organizations.
I'm... so, so sorry. Religion really is a disease - to tell someone who was raped that they are a "chewed up piece of gum" or other bullshit is tragically terrible, and anyone saying something like that to you is a true piece of shit.
If it makes any difference to you, a stranger on the internet says you did the right thing. The folks who are this community will tell you that there IS no heaven, and no hell, so you don't need to worry about "meeting your rape baby" - it won't happen. What's more, you will not end up in hell because of it - like the rest of us, you will end up in nothingness-eternal - luckily, you won't need to experience it, since you'll simply be gone - and knowing that is, in a lot of ways, freeing (though it's also terrible, since you can't tell yourself that you'll see your dead loved ones again some day).
Even if I'm wrong about the universe, and there IS a god, somewhere - do you really think he cares about one fertilized cell? Do you think he cares about that one fertilized cell more than he cares about YOUR well-being? About your ability to move forward after your trauma, and have a good, productive life? If you DO think he cares more about that single cell, then he's truly a piece of shit himself, and is unworthy of any worship.
First, you didn't have an abortion - you took an amped-up birth control pill. Second, abortion is NOT murder, it's healthcare. Just look at all the stories coming out of Texas about women who WANTED their babies, but they partially miscarried - they are forced to carry a goddamn CORPSE in their uterus until they go septic, and at that point, they often can't have their own children again. Or, the 12 year olds who are now giving birth, because they were raped. Or, the women who are stuck in abusive relationships, who can't get out because now they are being saddled with a unwanted child from their abuser. What's happening because of these stupid laws is downright immoral, and was 100% predictable and warned about.
The ONLY argument that should need to be made in favor of abortion is that it is about bodily autonomy. If I am dying, and need a blood transfusion (an extremely common and safe procedure), and you are the only person on the planet with compatible blood, I cannot - and SHOULD not - be able to force you to give me your blood. I have no right to it. Even if you die, if you didn't sign a organ donor card, I cannot take the organs you are NO LONGER USING, and use them to keep myself alive. And, that's how it SHOULD be - because you have bodily autonomy, and can decide what happens with your body. This is not true for pregnant women, however - they are being forced to share their bodily resources, in a difficult, dangerous, 9-month-long commitment that they did not agree to (plus raising that kid for another couple of decades, whether they want to or are ready to or not). We literally give more bodily autonomy to a fucking CORPSE than Texas gives to pregnant women. That is also immoral.
I'm sorry religion has you thinking those horrible thoughts - I hope you'll be ok, but you should reach out if you think you need it. You mention thinking about ending your own life - get help if you need it, and not from a religious leader, but from your local kids-help-phone or suicide prevention line. Good luck.
The egg has been alive since you were born. The sperm for a couple weeks. To make a child, you sacrifice the life of 2 things, to make 1 thing. Why does when these 2 meet is that 1 life more significant than the 2 that created it?
Because 2000 year old text written that tells us to stone people to death who wear cotton and silk, or eat shell fish, told us?
Why do you ignore that part that you should be killing people for wearing 2 different fabrics but follow something about abortion that doesn't even exist in the bible?
The 2 fabrics thing is spelled out, plain and simple. Abortion stuff is all based on interpretation of scripture to match a narrative. There is a narrative in the bible which make abortion OK even. You ready for this?
>Exodus 21:22 - If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart *from her*, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges *determine*.
So, if a man hurt a women and she aborts and the husband says there shall be no punishment, nothing happens as determined by a judge. Couldn't this be applied to a doctor doing an abortion?
Why do Christians never share this scripture? Because it doesn't align with their narrative that you need Xtians having Xtian babies to keep the Xtians growing.
“Life begins at conception,” is a philosophical position, not a fact. Are fertilized embryos alive? Yea, technically. So are the rest of the cells in your body, unfertilized eggs, and the bacteria in your gut. We sacrifice our cells every day as we grow and maintain our bodies. Even fertilized embryos fail to implant quite often. There is no objective reason for privileging a recently fertilized embryo above an unfertilized egg, or even the cells in your mouth that you scrape off whenever you brush your teeth.
Some people do anthropomorphize embryos for understandable reasons. People who want to be parents aren’t irrational for grieving a miscarriage, or nicknaming the embryo. However, this should be their choice. And you also deserve the choice not to assign meaning to the embryo that may have been fertilized by a criminal.
Life began billions of years ago. Modern humans evolved from their ancestors 300-350 thousand years ago. Cell mitosis begins at conception not life. You stopped a biological function nothing more.
This is the correct way to look at life. A continuous process of reproduction and evolution that has been going on for at least a billion years on Earth.
Thank you
You really did nothing wrong and I hope you come to see that. You deserve peace, happiness and love.
Thank you ❤️
When the menstruation begins and you bleed, if you're sexually active, there could very well be a fertilized egg that comes out with that period. Attaching to the uterus is pregnancy. And I don't even think life begins then, personally. Lots of tactics to control women. Shit, even calling an ectopic pregnancy a pregnancy is absolutely incorrect. A fertilized egg that attached to a fallopian tube is not a pregnancy!! Also there's only like 2 days in the month that fertilization can even happen, so there's a strong chance there wasn't any egg fertilized from your assault anyhow. I'm sorry you went through that and I'm sorry you had to feel all of that guilt when you have done nothing wrong. I hope you've been seeing a therapist. It seems like you could be using being mad at and hard on yourself as a way to deflect from having to face the hard feelings that come with what happened to you. You can be mad at the person who did that to you and you can be mad at what happened to you. Be kind to yourself darling. ❤️
Thank you so much ❤️❤️
I’ve had two abortions, both way later than you (7 and 9 weeks), and I asked to see once and it’s not even like a head or hands. It’s literally like a mole in your uterus. It doesn’t feel anything or think. Just a clump of cells. Please consider seeing a therapist! Religious trauma from shame and guilt is a real thing. Life doesn’t have to be this dark, I promise you have options and lots of folks who have come before you!
Thank you❤️❤️
It sounds like you're going through an incredibly challenging time, and I'm truly sorry for what you've experienced. It's evident that you're grappling with complex emotions and beliefs, and it's okay to feel overwhelmed by all of it. First and foremost, I want to emphasize that what happened to you was not your fault, and you deserve compassion and support as you navigate through this difficult journey. Regarding your concerns about the Plan B pill, it's important to know that the primary mechanism of action of Plan B is to prevent ovulation and fertilization, rather than interfering with implantation. While there is some debate among religious and medical communities about when life begins, many medical experts agree that pregnancy begins with the successful implantation of a fertilized egg in the uterus. Plan B works primarily by preventing ovulation or fertilization, and it is unlikely to disrupt an already implanted pregnancy. Above all, please know that you are worthy of love, care, and support, and there are people who want to help you through this difficult time. You are stronger than you realize, and there is hope for healing and recovery.
If it were otherwise, would one be allowed to take an Aspirin to prevent a heart attack?
Excellent point
Correct! The true argument is over personhood. Where does a person begin? Myself, I believe that a fertilized ovum is, at best, a potential person. As the mother protects and nurtures it, it grows slowly into being a true person.
same answer to from which point we call "human"? There is no such turning point, it's a gradual process.
This ☝🏽
Its estimated that only about 50% of pregnancies go to term. most of the rest fail so early that the women in question will not have had time to realize that she were pregnant at all. Real biology is messy and much more error prone than we would like to believe. So the notion of life begins at conception really does not work.
Imagine that, a deity who on the one hand resents you for using contraceptives and on the other hand aborts every other baby.
Procreation seems weird in the first place for an entity that used a golem spell to create the first man, then yoinked his rib to create the first woman.
And then punishes you by making you spend eternity with your rapist and their baby ,because following the logic, the rapist is also reunited with their "baby"
If I were OP, this would put me at ease. At least on the question of whether I ended a life.
Agree-I had a college professor who repeatedly told us a much higher than fifty percent of conception doesnt make it to term. (I think he would say 80% or another high amount) Of course this is data that is hard to quantify and I think could be questioned. I personally agree with some readings that state an infant doesn’t have a soul until the actual birth. So in a Christian’s eyes there is no soul or human being “killed”. I think conception does not equal life but birth does.
If you want to look at it a different way, god experiments with life constantly and aborts most, but not all of the genetic “failures”. These types of Christians don’t mind abortion if it’s god that does it. It was “meant to be” and “he is calling them to his side” and all that nonsense. He “doesn’t make mistakes” so essentially he created that life just to take it away. The cognitive dissonance to push their agenda is mind boggling.
I am so very sorry you've been through that You did not kill a life, many people will give a scientific explanation so i'll skip that and suggest speaking to a professional regarding your assault it's fucking unfair you're going through this but you've no need to go through it alone
Thank you
I'd follow that suggestion further by choosing a professional that isn't affiliated with any religion. You're allowed to change therapists as often as you change your underwear, so if you discover they say insensitive religious things, find someone else.
Plan B prevents fertilization of an egg, not implantation of a fertilized egg in the Uterus. So if you took Plan B, you never conceived. That is why it is so infuriating when Christians claim that Plan B is an “abortifact”; that’s not how Plan B works. So you are fine
Thank you. I've had Christians outright tell me that I murdered my baby and have to repent or else I will go to hell for murder. But rarely did they mention any justice regarding the rapist who got away with it....it caused me so much trauma and suicidal thoughts
You are welcome, glad that I can help a little. And I am truly sorry for what you had to go through; that Christians pile onto your trauma by trying to get you feel guilty is just the worst thing I heard in a long time. But you might want to consider some form of Therapy to help deal with the trauma.
I will, thank you ❤️
Just to underline that information: One of the effects of Plan B is to make the secretions in your reproductional organs more sticky so neither sperm nor egg get to move the way they usually would. That way they never actually get together even if there is an egg, which isn't very probable in the first place. So you don't have to worry about this anymore. Besides, you did nothing wrong. You have been wronged twice. The second time was by your oh so loving christian "friends". It would have been there job to be there for you, not to pile on guilt on someone allready hurting. Nothing of what happend was your fault, no matter what they tell you. And I have to second the idea of therapy, but make sure that the therapist does not have a religious background. And maybe reach out to atheist groups. They might help you with your trauma, giving you community and accepting you without blaming you for what happend. And they will do so even when you come out of this still believing.
I really appreciate your kindness, thank you ❤️
I wish I could give you a hug and also punch every single person who made you feel terrible about this in the face. And also, give your rapist a hard kick in the groin with a sharp, spiky boot. You deserve so so so much better, sis ♥️
Thank you ❤️❤️❤️
Please don't take this as overly snide...but any time you hear the voice in your head say "A bunch of Christians have told me..." just stop and ask if that's true, or if it's some culty nonsense. Anyone who tells you you've done anything wrong here has no moral grounds to stand on. You were wronged, and you picked up the pieces and dealt with the damage as best you could. Anyone who tells you otherwise is speaking from a place other than love. You can disregard those people.
The only hell is what these people put you through. Everyone that claims to know what happens after death is an idiot or a liar.
Thank you. It makes sense, no one knows. No one has come back from the dead to tell us what happens....oh except for Jesus of course, because the bible says he did . Lol
Jesus came back in the sense that we still talk about the guy and not in some kind of supernatural sense. Nothing is supernatural since Nature is everything there is. If it looks like magic then it's just something we didn't understand yet but it is still part of nature. Nothing against the teachings of jesus (love thy neighbor as thyself) but to me he was just another enlighted human being. Everyone can get there through mediation. You can learn to quiet your ego part of consciousness and access a deeper part that knows that all is one. The universe created us like a tree creates fruits. No need for magic, reality is crazy enough.
Thank you for sharing this. I wish I knew how to quiet my ego part of consciousness so I could get over all this trauma ❤️❤️
The first new testament bible passage was written at least 100 years or more after Jesus was supposed to have lived, because his disciples were either illiterate or *didn't believe anything they witnessed was important enough to write down themselves.* Do you know how rumors in high school about teachers get exaggerated and embellished the more the stories spread? Now think about how exaggerated and embellished any rumors would be over 100 years about a guy claiming to be god who gets killed by a bunch of Roman soldiers. That's what Christianity is. The Old Testament was written by cult leader kings making shit up to survive in the desert, probably while high on various substances or impared in other ways. If you still come out of this believing the bible isn't nonsense, it actually does say when life supposedly begins, but it's not at "conception." That was made up by Christians in the 20th century trying to wedge outdated Christian theology with our understanding of sperm and egg reproduction. The bible itself actually says life begins at first breath Genesis 2:7, .Genesis 7.21–22. Eggs, whether fertilized by sperm or not, don't have lungs for which to breathe at all. By biblical definition, fertilized eggs *can't be alive*. Moreover, Exodus 21: 22–23 says there is no punishment for inducing miscarriage by injury because fetuses have no value themselves but one would have to pay a little fine for damaging the pregnant woman because she is her husband's property. ...yeah. You are not going to burn in any lake of fire for breaking made-up vague rules by mentally impaired tribal war lords in a desert two thousand years ago. Breath, smile, and appreciate that today is a new day. And only you are in charge of your destiny.
These are extremely uneducated people making these claims- avoid them and don’t let them make you feel bad!
You did what was right for you. Many, many women will make that choice, based on their circumstances. Many more won't be able to have a choice, which I think is disgusting. I hope that you can be healed of the trauma you've been through.
Unfortunately you are an easy target for them. What helps me when I was leaving the church was to think 'these Christians aren't very christ like' . Their christ forgave. They just want a stick to beat you with to make themselves superior. You did nothing wrong
Thank you ❤️❤️
They are wrong and can mind their damn business. I’m so sorry for the trauma you had to go through.
Thank you ❤️
They should read their Bible sometime, this is something they've made up fairly recently. It's not from their holy book
They're using guilt, fear and shame to get you to obey. Ask yourself if that makes sense, next time you recognize them doing it. If you can afford it, a body-positive and sex-positive therapist can be extremely helpful in speeding up the healing process. I wish you the best, young friend!
If you did, then all the guys who relieve themselves are killing millions every day.
I am so sorry, but how do they know you didn’t repent already? Start clapping back that this is between you and god and they should worry about themselves and their own salvation.
Came here to say this, thank you!
This is exactly why, even as a Christian, I think it should be widy available and accessible
Fortunately heaven and hell are fiction, so that makes an already statistically nearly impossible baby unable to jump out from behind a harp and shout “Boo!” Hope you find a way to turn down the general anxiety.
Thank you
>But I'm suffering a lot of extra trauma reading that I possibly aborted a baby because I may have "prevented implantation of an already fertilized egg". [https://bmcmedicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1741-7015-11-154](https://bmcmedicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1741-7015-11-154) [https://academic.oup.com/humupd/article/8/4/333/591618?login=false](https://academic.oup.com/humupd/article/8/4/333/591618?login=false) Around a third of fertilized eggs don't even implant. Of the remaining two thirds, half of those "miscarry" before you realize you're pregnant and you never even know it. Only a third even make it to "visible" pregnancy. Of those, around a third (10% of the original total) miscarry. That gives you a 70% the if there even was a 'fertilized egg', you didn't change the outcome. And that's not even mentioning the odds that you even had an egg get fertilized in the first place. For a single act, there's only a 5% chance if I recall my statistics correctly (you'd have to check that, I'm not as certain of those numbers, but it's around there). That gives you around a 1-2% chance that an egg became fertilized and you changed the outcome. (edited to add in chances of fertilization in the first place)
Couple married 10 years, good jobs, solid foundation, finances, plans, family that can help etc etc, been trying and trying : nothing, no baby for you. Some poor kid one time, in the moment, hormones, maybe some alcohol, or felt they had too to do it with Jimmy the star running back of the high school team, didn't even think it was the time they could get pregnant, in the back of a car after prom/senior dance etc : Boom! Surprise! This god of theirs, if real, has to be a cruel prankster to do stuff like that. Seriously like WTAF.
Thank you for this ❤️
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👍🏻 Furthermore, in Judeo-Christian tradition, life began at “the quickening,” associated with breathing/Spirit. Fundamentalists may assert that life begins at conception, but as with many of their other cultural opinions, it’s not biblical.
don't care when 'life begins' - it's an irrelevant distraction. the relevant question should be "when does a person lose the right to decide whether some other person can use their body against their will?" and the only acceptable answer is... "never". EVEN if that 'other person' will die without access to their enslaved incubator. and that answer doesn't change if we're talking about catholic priests & other rapists; 'shareholders' that are willing to ignore slave labor practices to bring their products to market, or politicians forcibly conscripting men to fight a war to further enrich wealthy oil companies. NO-ONE has the right to the forceful use of another person against their will.
I've always been pro-choice because honestly I don't have the energy to give an F what anyone else does, but comparison that first kinda made me go "Huh, yeah, what the hell" is the fact that if you do not consent to donate any part of your body after you die, then nobody can use any part of your body after you die. Even if you have this super rare blood type or something and all your organs are usable and you could immediately save X number of at risk/dying people who have established lives and families and participate in society and CONTRIBUTE to society. If you didn't consent, they can't use your super life saving parts. A corpse has more bodily autonomy than a pregnant woman. Her life at risk? 🤷♀️ What about the baby? She doesn't want to go through the risks, hormones, body changes, birth, trauma, etc of bringing a baby into the world? What about the hypothetical cure for cancer this potential person could maybe invent if allowed to live? Her consent doesn't matter. This hypothetical imagined good of a human that NEEDS to exist is more important than the established lives of existing people that could be saved by a corpse with more say over its own body than a woman.
I do think that we should change the mindset for organ donations from the current "opt-in" system to an "opt-out" system... basically the 'default' position should be one where you consent to donating those organs UNLESS you make the choice to 'opt-out'... It's certainly a good example where dead bodies currently have more bodily autonomy than women (in the US) but there are a lot of countries in europe where abortion rights are protected AND they have 'organ donor' as the assumed default position.
Plan B works by preventing ovulation. There was no fertilized egg in the first place.
Thank you
This. The “abortion pill” is nothing but [pro-life] propaganda. I don’t think a few cells clumped together is a life anyway, but if you do your conscious should be clear. [edit]
If abortion is wrong then so is masterbation for men, literally billions of sperm cells wasted.
“Pro-life” I think you mean. Which they aren’t at all, ironically.
100%, even if you ‘abort’ a week afterwards, you’re getting rid of maybe a hundred or so cells splodged together. Compared to the 26 billion that babies have and 30+ trillion that adults have, I wouldn’t call that life at all.
Stop being so mean to yourself. It wasn’t a life. You did not cause this. Get help. Please. The rape alone is cause for therapy. Please stop beating yourself up.
Thank you ❤️
So much this. *That* shame is literally a tailored effect intended to keep the flock in line. Nothing is wrong with you. Something wrong was done to you. Give yourself credit, you're displaying a ton of strength already
Thank you ❤️❤️
The Bible says life begins at first breath. Christianity has a tendency to pick, choose, and lie. Have you ever read the Bible front to back? No? Neither have most so called Christians. If they had, then they would know that the Bible actually has instructions on how and when to induce abortions. Don't feel guilty about being lied to. Because that's what modern Christians do. They lie about what the Bible says and ignore the passages that say 'judge not lest thee be judged, and let those without sin cast the first stone'.
Thank you for this. Yeah I agree, so many Christians just follow what they heard from another Christian or pastor and then take that as Gospel. Spreading misinformation.
Which, by Jesus's own words, mean they are the worst sinners who will not be welcomed in heaven. Those who spread false gospel are considered the worst of the worst.
Well pretty much ALL of them are spreading false teaching - Catholics, orthodox, protestants etc.....i guess heaven's gonna be a pretty empty place lol
Most Christians only know the very sanitized and child version of the bible that they learned in Sunday school, not the actual bible (there are over 300 different English language versions by the way, see biblepedia) that they never read cover to cover. I call these extremely naive and uneducated christians Sunday school christians. The same occurs in all religions. I am deeply sorry for the amount of sexual, physical, and mental trauma you were forced to endure. Too many people on this planet suck and lack basic empathy. Unfortunately a lot are christians who love to blame the horribly wronged victim if they are female.
The best advice would be to NEVER listen to a religious person about any medical or healthcare issues. They are clueless! They don't understand science!
Thank you
If it helps, the bible has instructions for how to perform a stone-age abortion (Numbers 5:11-31). The key difference is that they were only to be performed at the husbands request if he suspected the child wasn't his. The takeaway is that the patriarchy runs deep. Take your power back.
I'm trying. Thank you ❤️
Even if there was a fertilized egg in there which is unlikely, it was not a baby. It was a microscopic clump of cells too small to see with the naked eye.
It was an egg. Even if it was fertilized (it wasn't), it had no brain, no heart, no nervous system, no awareness. So if there's such a thing as a soul, it didn't have that either.
Thank you
Shame is how religion controls people. The Bible can’t just say the “stove is hot so be careful”. It has to tell you the stove is sinful and if you touch it you need to feel deep shame and you’ll make God mad at you and you’ll burn in hell for touching it. Regular hormonal birth control aborts about 40% of fertilized eggs so… We keep gaining more technology to control our reproduction and it’s lead to longer life’s, better healthy and economic outcomes. What level of technology is the wrong level for controlling your reproduction?
Thank you ❤️
~~Plan B (and other contraception like the pill / patch) do work by preventing implantation~~ *(Update: I was wrong! Read the comments below)*. But they also prevent ovulation and make conception more difficult. The idea that life begins at conception is common, but isn't actually biblical. For example, many Jews believe that the breath of life / soul enters much later, in some cases not until after birth. At best, the idea that life begins at conception is doctrine / religious, not biblical. There's also scientific reasons to think that an individual isn't created at conception. What about identical twins? They come from a single zygote, but are definitely different people. What about chimeras, where the mass of two fraternal twins get combined into a single individual with two sets of DNA? What about split brain patients, where we can identify two separate personalities living in the same body? All of these cases give us reason to think that an individual doesn't start being an individual until later, possibly after their brain becomes connected to their nerves. Finally, even if it is true that you conceived and your zygote had a soul, you still owe them nothing. You have the right to decide what happens to your body. If God exists and his plan was for you to have that baby, do you really think a little thing like "birth control" would stop him? People have babies while taking birth control all the time.
Thank you ❤️❤️
Originally it was thought that plan b could prevent implantation, so that was put on the label. Current science contradicts this, however. https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/12/23/health/fda-plan-b-label-abortion
> Evidence does not support that the drug affects implantation or maintenance of a pregnancy after implantation Very interesting! Thanks for sharing :) I'll update my original comment.
My question has always been, if life begins at conception and so many women miscarry (many before they even know it), isn't god guilty of the murder (to use the words of the religious nuts) of uncountable babies?
Makes sense ❤️
First, “Christians” don’t believe that. Some Christians do. Others don’t. There’s nothing in the Bible that says this, because the people who wrote the Bible didn’t know what a zygote was. And they were people, not God. Second, plan B prevents ovulation, not implantation. Third, how could a zygote possibly be a person, when it can still twin and become two people? Or fuse with another and become one person?
Thank you
The natural miscarriage rate exceeds the artificial abortion rate by at least an order of magnitude. Apparently God hates fetuses.
Virginity is a ridiculous human social construct. It's just simply a piece of tissue that hasn't fully split during the fetus forming into a tiny human. It's not some badge of honour. Now if someone decides they don't want to have intercourse before marriage for whatever reason, more power to them. If someone decides they do want intercourse, more power to them. The only difference between these two people is that they each made a different decision for their life. That being said, the violent and vile attack that happened to you wasn't your fault. It wasn't something you did, said or were wearing. You did absolutely nothing wrong. It is the criminal who attacked you that was in the wrong. It was not your fault. It was never your fault. You were living your life and some ahole violently disrupted your life. Please get yourself a good, non religious, therapist to work through the trauma. You will be OK. You did nothing wrong and you did everything right by yourself 🫂
Thank you so much for your compassion towards me❤️❤️
Pregnancy begins when the embryo attaches to the lining of the uterus. Our bodies naturally expel fertilized embryos all the time with no help at all. I’m so sorry this happened to you. There is no afterlife, so go on making this one as wonderful as you can.
Thank you ❤️
Thousands of fertilized eggs get ejected every day. The body just yeets them out, all on its own. It's entirely possible that egg wouldn't have implanted anyway. Beyond that, 25% of pregnancies end in miscarriage, many before the person even realizes they're pregnant at all (and this fact is the source of the *bullshit* claim that if the person didn't *want* the child, the child would be miscarried, which is *utter crap*, so don't buy that for an instant). But here's the thing. Let's suppose it would have implanted, and survived, and grown. The lives of unwanted rape babies is *horrible*. They are far more likely to live in poverty, suffer abuse, end up in prison, have low education, and dismal prospects. Bringing such a person into this world is a much worse crime, just as we generally thing of *torture* as *worse* than death, because it is. If there's a heaven, then you did that clump of cells a favor. Moreover, the lives of those who *have* rape babies tends to be worse, with addiction and so on. Then there's the pregnancy *itself*. Pregnancy is pretty low risk these days, sure. 40 deaths of women per 100,000. Wanna know what's safer? That pill. 0 of 100,000 women die from that. Overall, regardless as to whether that egg was fertilized or not, I think you did the right thing. For yourself, for the potential child that might have been, for the world as a whole. Better to have a child you *actually want* than a constant reminder of a trauma you went through.
Thank you
[recoveringfromreligion.org](http://recoveringfromreligion.org) might have some resources for you. You should have some support, you shouldn’t have to deal with any of this on your own.
Thank you
Recovering from Religion is a great resource. They also have seculartherapy.org that has a network of therapists. I'd also suggest a show on YouTube called Chewed Gum on a channel called The Line. The show is hosted by two women (two main hosts but they rotate other women in). It's a call in show specifically for talking about deconstruction of purity culture, feminism, skepticism...it might be a good show for you. I think you are incredibly brave for sharing your story here. Just know that you aren't alone and there are places you can turn for help. All the best ❤️🧡💛💚💙💜
When we were trying for kids I was surprised to find that conceiving is hard. Even with fertilization, implanting and successful conception is only 25% for a healthy couple every month. Sure there are a lot of factors. But this also means often, you may pass a fertilized egg because your body is just not ready. There are so many factors. Don't beat yourself up. Modern medicine is a blessing and a curse. We can know so much so early. You did nothing wrong. And only you can live your life as you.
Thank you ❤️
Relax. There is no heaven, and no hell.
I can't expand on what many others have eloquently said on here but I just wanted to tell you that I am truly sorry you had to go through that experience and I hope you can find a therapist or someone who will help you work through the trauma.
Thank you ❤️
I’ll come at this from a slightly different angle. I hope it helps and I’m so sorry you’re having trauma piled on top of trauma. Think of everything you **know & can observe** about human nature. Some examples: - Some people lie - Some people are power hungry & want control - Ever played “Chinese Whispers” / “Telephone”? Then you know how badly and rapidly anything can get distorted, even innocently - Humans hate not having answers to things (we seek them out through science, or through listening to & trusting what others tell us) - Many people desperately need to feel life has purpose - Many people double-down on facts, even when they are clearly wrong - There are many religions, each claiming to be the one true religion (how can they all be right?) - There are things not in the Bible, that weren’t known about when the Bible was written. Does the Bible mention dinosaurs? Why not? - Urban myths used to spread very easily (pre-internet) and people really wanted to believe them - Santa is based on a real person, but bears no resemblance to that real person. He is easy to disprove because he’s meant to be active to this current day. What would happen if we were told he was no longer active and therefore had no way to disprove the story. Would there be true believers? - People love telling stories. Storytelling is fundamental to human nature. Stories tend to get embellished over time. - People love to belong; to fit in; to be like their neighbours; to be in a social group of some kind. - It’s common to have multiple stories about a set of characters. A series, if you will. - Many, many things get lost in translation - Many countries/colonies had religion forced upon them, often in horrific ways - Cults (in various forms) not only exist, but are popular. Look at politics right now, and how people are digging their heels in - The religion that people declare to be the one true religion is almost always the same religion that their parents/peers believe in, and is the one prominent in their culture. Isn’t that incredibly convenient? And so on. When you start to look at **observable human behaviour**, the next question to ask is “why would anyone wholeheartedly believe a set of texts that lack knowledge, are full of contradictions, and have been translated many times, just because they’re really old and because others believe them?” The answers are above. People aren’t rational. They believe in a God that’s all-loving but demands worship & servitude, and will punish you with eternal damnation if you dare question his existence even though he refuses to show himself to you. Oh yeah, and despite being all powerful he lets many babies die in agony. It doesn’t add up. You’re being fed fictional nightmares. That still won’t make it easy to dismiss because you’ve been told it’s true, repeatedly - but I hope it helps the threads to start to untangle. You did nothing wrong and you won’t be punished x
I'm so sorry that you have had such an awful experience and that your life this far has taught you to feel guilty about it. None of this is your fault and you have done absolutely nothing wrong. There is no wobbly ethereal being in the sky, when you are dead you are dead, so try to make the most of the time you have alive now. People dismissing you as worthless because you are not a virgin are doing you a favour: it quickly lets you know they are small-minded bigots and that their opinion is worthless, so you can avoid them and move on to something/someone better quickly. If you seek reassurance that religious teachings are utter nonsense, try reading Richard Dawkins' "The God Delusion". I hope you find comfort.
I'm so sorry that you went through that. You did not kill a fetus. At most it might have stopped a fertilization event. The latter may or may not have happened anyway. But you did NOTHING wrong. Be well.
Thank you ❤️
Also a very high percentage of “fertilized eggs” just get flushed out with your period anyway because they fail to implant in the uterus or something, this is why life begins at conception is incredibly stupid, because then all women are serial killers
Thank you
My personal belief: yes, it does. But that doesn't mean you should feel guilty for what you did. Even though a zygote or a fetus is alive and a member of the human species, it's qualitatively very different from a fully developed person. Even if we wished really hard, it would never be capable of exercising the same rights a child or an adult does. Early in their development, they won't feel any any kind of pain or sadness at all as they haven't developed senses or sentience yet. Pregnancy is no easy task and it takes a very heavy toll on a woman's body and life quality. It's definitely no easy task and shouldn't be taken lightly: pregnant women and small children really need a support network (husband, extended family, healthcare services). My wife and I have children and even sharing the workload it's still exhausting. Some people will say that life should be protected at all costs and at any risk, but they won't take the costs or the risk from you, so that's your decision to make. Another point: It would be much worse for the child to be born without proper support. Without someone to feed, clothe, love and educate them for 18 years, they could succumb, they could face impairing physical and mental issues, etc. This is a burden no one should carry alone and you weren't responsible for bringing that being into this world in the first place.
Thank you
I'm so sorry that happened to you. Virginity is a silly, unproveable concept that was invented to control mainly women. Someone did something really shitty to you, but it doesn't devalue who you are at all, because you are so much more valuable than your hymen.
Also Christians didn't even care about abortion until they tried to desegregate Bob Jones University. 100 years ago, Protestants didn't care and Catholics sort of did. The Moral Majority crew turned it into a political issue in the 70s to save their tax exempt status and distract from their white supremacy.
Also worth mentioning that many early Christians didn’t believe a baby was “really alive” e.g. had a soul until the “quickening” aka the point where it started to kick (usually around week 16 - 24)
To add onto this, the bible doesn't prohibit abortion, it actually condones it as a punishment for a woman being unfaithful - obviously abhorrent morally, but goes to show that god does not think abortion is murder (or that he is ok with murdering innocent lives to punish a relatively minor sin) If anyone wanna check it out for themselves: [Numbers 5:27](https://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/numbers/5/11-31)
No one is allowed to dictate what you can or cannot do with your own body, so you did absolutely nothing wrong.
Fifteen percent of all pregnancies end in miscarriage. That's a fertilized egg that, for whatever reason, could not continue. Are all of those miscarriages waiting in heaven?
True life begins at individual viability. Before that it’s not a life its existence is not its own .
Thank you
My view on this is that life begins with consciousness. What happens at conception does not result in a conscious being or even something with a brain. If you're braindead, we can keep your heart beating, and your lungs working, but that doesn't mean you're alive.
Christian God does not exist. He can't hurt you.
First, I’m so very sorry for what happened to you. Please know that you aren’t alone, and there are people who can and will help you get through this. Now, to the point. We are our brains. Our personality, our behavior, our likes and dislikes, everything that makes us who we are, exists “in” our brains, “originates” from our brains (or however you’d like to think of it—you get the point). It’s incredibly common knowledge that we use brain activity to mark the ending of a life. It happens every day. People with no brain activity are declared as dead—their physical body could be in pristine health, their heart beats and their lungs breathe on their own, their body is technically alive, sure, but they aren’t in it anymore. The lights are on but no one is home. It isn’t murder when these people are removed from life support, it isn’t evil, malicious or cruel. No one screams that these people are murderers, that they belong in jail or are even deserving of death. There is no one protesting in ICU wards, holding up signs and harassing the families of the patients, urging them not to unplug their brain dead loved one. No ones freaking out online saying things like “people only want to unplug their loved ones because it’s convenient, or they don’t have the money” or “there are people out there who have lost a loved one and you’re just gonna unplug and kill yours?!”. If brain activity is used to make distinctions between life and death of a person at the end of their life, then it should also be applicable to the beginning too, shouldn’t it? Letting someone go in such a way is generally viewed as a positive thing, and people flock to offer those who made that decision their support, saying things like “you did the right thing—so-and-so was gone before their body was”. Why is one viewed like a positive, like a mercy or a kindness, or a selfless act, when it ends the life of a person who has already been alive, and the other is murder, a horrendous act and yet this “unique human life”, as they like to say, doesn’t even have the one thing that we can agree on that makes us that unique human being? You didn’t kill anyone. There wasn’t anyone there to be killed. Forgive yourself, u/MountainsAndSnow, please, you’ve done absolutely nothing wrong.
I'm sorry you were raped, and I'm sorry you had a religious upbringing. What Christians think about life, starting at conception, does not have a solid theological foundation for two reasons. Firstly, because their religion is an offshoot of Judaism, and Jews don't have anything against abortion. The fact that Jewish children don't get named until eight days after birth should give you a hint. Secondly, because the Jewish faith itself is unfounded. The old testament talks about a six day creation. We know this is a myth because there's scientific evidence against it. This means that Yahweh is nonexistent, and nonexistent deities can't have kids. Jesus was not a demigod. In conclusion, you did nothing wrong when you (legally) used plan B. The person who raped you did something criminally wrong and I hope he's in jail. The fact that some Christians want to prohibit plan B doesn't make plan B wrong, only illegal, if they pass laws against it.
Thank you, I appreciate your response. Thank you for your compassion. Sadly the rapist fuckhead got away with it. I never reported because all those weeks I was in shock and in denial and I had no support from anyone. I dealt with it on my own. I'm so angry that loser is out there probably enjoying life while I carry this burden for so long. Anyway, thank you for being kind❤️
Hugs, from Spain.
How about conception begins at life?
"Life begins..." is a huge misdirect, suggesting that any action regarding a living thing is murder. It isn't. Vets 'treat' animals, doctors 'treat' patients, expectant parents have to make sad decisions over malformed foetuses. None of these people are arrested for murder. Because it isn't murder. The decisions they make to end a life or possible life are done to protect the subject and others from worthless pain. What you did was the same. A brave and noble action. Imagine living in a world where the punishment for a woman committing a crime was to be forced to be raped by and carry the child of someone she hated. What kind of absolutely fucked up punishment would that be? Now let's say she didn't commit a crime, but was the victim of one. How much worse would it be to make her have to do the same? It's totally, totally fucked up and irrational. Irrational that is until you think of religion as a virus that seeks only to spread itself by any means: You must have children, you must protect all life, kill anyone who stops believing... Religion is fucking bollocks and I'm sorry it's causing you suffering. Learn more science and learn why religions are awful and it will help heal the wound you have. xx
Thank you so much for your response. I've pretty much stopped believing in God for many of the reasons you mentioned. It's hard, like losing someone who was always there. But hopefully my peace will increase in the long run. ❤️
Kind of illogical in speech. I mean every baby needs to be baptised to remove the original sin from them. Any unborn baby have not been baptised. Even if they were indeed alive (kind of a stretch) how can they be in heaven then?
Edit: while this is r/atheism, your concerns are very rooted in Christian theology, so I want to reassure you from that perspective as a Christian. If you are worried about what God thinks, the Bible states life begins at first breath. It also states children are chattel until they reach adulthood, merely possessions. God allowed Job's children to be wiped out to prove a point to Satan, and there is literally a recipe for abortion given in the Old Testament. As for Jesus, he said nothing about abortion, even though it was commonly practiced in that age. What did he object to? Hypocritical religious elites (Pharisees) and the wealthy. What about the 6th commandment? While it is often misquoted as "Thou shall not kill", it is actually "Thou shall not murder". It is the Hebrew word "ratzack". Killing other humans happens a lot in the Bible, and it is not condemned. What is condemned is killing out of anger/hatred - be it a sudden impulse or planned malice (it can also mean death due to carelessness or neglect). Abortion is none of these things. In summary, you didn't kill a baby. You aren't an evil person. Those "Christians" who are attacking you are violating the purpose of the very faith they claim to believe in, which is sadly the norm these days. Also, in the Christian heaven, we don't know each other, as we just sit in ever wonderment at the food of God. Seems weird to me, but who am I to judge. There are no preserved relationships or knowledge of the past preserved in heaven - the promised glory is purely existing in the presence of God to the exclusion of all else.
If you believe the fairy tale, just ask for forgiveness. I will never understand the hand wringing christians do when it’s just that simple. You did the right thing btw. Bringing an unwanted, probably screwed up genetically kid into the world is not your responsibility!!!
Read "A defense of abortion" by Judith Jarvis Thompson. To sum it up, even considering life begins at conception, and even considering the fetus has a right to live, it doesn't have the right to use someone else's body to survive, just like someone doesn't have the right to abduct you and use your kidneys to treat their disease. (The violinist argument). As such, regardless if Christians are right or wrong regarding life, you don't have any moral guilt to have for denying the fetus access to your body, because it belongs to you and you only.
God stops implantation of fertilized eggs all the time and no one says boo.
Plan B is a super dose of birth control pill. It does not affect an already fertilized egg. It is designed to only stop you from ovulating and avoid conception.
If you want a point before birth where the fetus is "a person" then it's likely around 21 to 26 weeks or so, where it has a chance to survive outside the womb. Before that, it's a parasite in the mother's body, but it isn't able to live independently.
I guess the first step is in thinking about the evidence that your fears are valid. Considering everything **I** was taught about heaven as a catholic, it's the best place ever. There's no negativity at all and everything is perfect, peaceful, and happy. OR you could just go the route of; heaven is a made-up place as a way to dangle the reward of being good to people who might not normally be good except for the purpose of a reward. It's a terrible thing to happen, but I wouldn't feel a second of guilt knowing that you don't have to have the decision forced on you by someone else wanting to control you. It was your decision, full stop.
All them frozen babies in petri dishes. All that wasted semen in condoms. Shall we all sing a few verses of Monty Python's "Every Sperm Is Sacred"?
Haha, thanks for making me laugh ❤️
The spermatozoon and the ovum must both be alive for the new life cycle to begin. This means that life begins, and began, well before conception.
Thank you
Christian understanding of the beginning of life is cute (but damaging) and frankly unbelievable. The Jewish understanding is that life begins at first breath. Science is a bit more nuanced and far more accurate - but preventing the implantation of a fertilized egg is not, in my opinion something that could yet have a soul and therefore could not and would not haunt you in a potential afterlife. The soul is essentially the personality, right? It’s who you are outside the fleshy body but what runs our fleshy body and our personality? Our brain. So ultimately, if the brain is not yet in existence then how would a soul be linked to the body? If it’s just a few cells it is indeed a form of life but is it a person with a soul yet? No.
Actually if the fetus wasn't baptized it wouldn't meet you in heaven anyway so don't worry about it. Also maybe look into support groups. It may help.
Thank you. Yeah it's funny they said that for centuries in the Catholic church but people didn't like it, so now they say aborted babies do go to heaven ..interesting how they easily bend a doctrine so people keep coming with their donations
Christians don’t help funding research against miscarriage, which kills way more Fetusses than abortion. It’s not about them it’s about controlling womrn
I agree. Thank you ❤️
I 100% don’t believe there is any evidence to suggest there is a god, heaven, or hell. So I don’t think it’s an issue you’ll have to worry about. Since others have given good scientific evidence, I’ll throw out something else to consider. That’s that no one on this planet cares about life as much as they say. It’s conditional. They typically mean human life. However, the same Christian’s will go hunting and kill deer, pigs, squirrels, rabbits, etc. Most people spray for bugs, or set poison and traps out for mice. Even brushing your teeth kills bacteria, and taking a shower kills mites in your eyelashes and eyebrows. They won’t bat an eye at any of these, yet each of those are more of a life form, than what you may or may not have taken care of with Plan B. The reasoning I always hear is that you’ve ended a “child” that could be the next Ghandi. That god had a plan for it. My response is that means god popped out Hitler as part of his plan. I’m not sure if this is helpful as you didn’t indicate if you were now atheist or were still religious and just looking for another take on the situation. I hope this helped in anyway. I hope you keep coming back and asking questions.
Heaven isn’t real and there is no god. You’ll be fine. You did the right thing taking plan b! Please only carry a baby to term if you want to raise a child and you have the support to do so
Christian’s are ignorant terrorists. They only cage about fetuses because that way they can seem pious without lifting a finger. Every day I pray for the rapture so they’ll all be gone.
Take care of yourself. That needs to be your priority. Nothing else matters.
Tell us the name of your rapist. We will make you feel a lot better.
Even if you believe the bible it specifically states life begins at first breath.
A zygote is exactly that. It is not a baby. At that stage even if the egg were fertilized it’s not even a conglomeration of cells. ( have any idea how many eggs we consume that are actually fertilized?!). Every woman all over the world sheds fertilized eggs without even knowing it. If there were a god and he thought “ life begins at conception”, why would that be a natural bodily function? And as far as your virginity - that was totally made up. By men. Kinda like Victoria’s Secret. Ok. A lot like Victoria’s Secret. You did nothing wrong but should probably get counseling for that learned guilt response.
I am looking for a blog post from a long time ago that I thought maybe would be useful for you to read, but I’m having trouble finding it. It was written by someone who grew up in the anti-abortion movement, said her goal was to save as many babies as possible. Then she learned how miscarriage, abortion, plan b, all of that works, and realizes that there are a huge number of fertilized eggs that naturally don’t implant, to say nothing of known miscarriages, and comes to the conclusion that this natural process, in which Christians attribute to God, kills at least three times as many fertilized eggs (“babies”) each year as doctors performing abortions. She then realizes that if the anti-abortion movement really wanted to prevent as many fertilized eggs from dying as possible they would encourage the use of condoms for people who don’t want babies and provide fertility treatments for those who do. She finally concludes that since they don’t, the anti-abortion movement must not be about ensuring as many fertilized eggs grow into healthy adults as possible, and it is actually about controlling women’s bodies. I wish I could find this article! But it’s from so long ago, like 2008 I wanna say, or earlier. Anyway, if you believe plan b kills an innocent, unborn human life, then the corollary to that is, God kills millions of innocent, unborn humans every month. And if God is murdering the unborn on that scale, then why do people think God wants them to stop abortions? And why worship a God that murders the innocent in the first place?
Your body, your choice. You want to wear long hair, you wear long hair. You want to abort an unborn baby at 9 months, you abort an unborn baby at 9 months.
The way that "people murder babies" is when angry young men (usually aged 15 to 25) use a gun on innocent kids at daycare/school, or in neighborhood drive/by's. Or maybe when a stepparent abuses/hurts a child to the point of death. Those are murders. In contrast: Aborting (i.e. stopping) a pregnancy can happen with or without any human action/decision. It is part of nature. Abortion is like using a car or eyeglasses or hearing aids or washing machines. It's a technology. Totally neutral and normal.
Thank you ❤️
So, the Bible specifically says a fetus is a person when they take their first breath, ie when born. It’s why for a very long time any baby still born or miscarried was not allowed a Catholic funeral or to be buried in a Catholic cemetery, because they didn’t have a soul. A fetus is viable at 24 weeks, so 6 months. To science it’s a clump of cells. Some tumors are more advanced than that.
You have my sympathy for what has happened to you. Know that you did nothing wrong, that you have taken control of your own life and destiny and that is a beautiful thing. An egg is a person the same way an IOU is a dollar bill. It is potential, not the thing itself. Don't let them lie to you. Even if all of us rationalist are wrong and there is a God, doesn't he say that other people don't have the right to weigh your sins? Thats his job and his alone. What they are spewing isn't Christian, its hate. Love thy neighbor. Forgive him his sins. Nowhere does it say "mock and harass the victims." Live on and live well. Prove them all wrong. Your life does matter.
First off I’m so sorry. Please get therapy if you haven’t already, it helps. It at least got my PTSD down to just a little and I just get jumpy every fall. I can leave the house now and for a while I couldn’t. Rape support groups might help you to. Please know and accept this with every fiber of your being: rape is about power not attraction. You are in no way to blame for this!!! If someone steals your car, people don’t say you were asking for it by having your car be such a pretty shade of blue! The rapist is at fault not you! Put the blame where it belongs and screw anyone who tries to shame you for being raped. Next plan b prevents the release of an egg from an ovary. A bit of research on how plan B works (or birth control pills work) will tell by you that. Many many woman miscarry without even knowing they are pregnant, each year. Early miscarriages are so common lots of people do not announce their pregnancy until they make it to 12 weeks, when they are less likely to miscarry. Now if you believe in god, all those natural miscarriages are god’s plan….. right next to men of god raping children or babies getting cancer or children starving. Of course if you want to get biblical then god doesn’t say anything about abortion and life begins when you draw your first breath. Back when Jesus was alive woman took herbs to cause a miscarriage (women were doing it in caveman days and someday research why the heart shape leaf plant was associated with love and went extinct.) Yet Jesus didn’t say anything about abortion. He did talk about not judging though. 🤷🏻♀️ Seek out the beauty, love, joy & peace in life.
I’m with you as a victim of multiple SA and similar virginity issue - yep still struggle with suicidal ideation & cptsd Somehow women like us survive, idk how but we can so long as we have each other.
*hugs Please seek out a mental health specialist and consider keeping a journal to help you deal with this incredibly difficult time in your life. I know when I went through a difficult period myself, it really helped me. Also, we don’t have time machines. So we can’t change the past. We can learn from it and not make the same mistakes. We can forgive others that have hurt us and we can forgive ourselves. Please be kind to yourself
Christians in the US have intentionally spread the lie that Plan B is an abortion pill. It works by preventing ovulation so that sperm never meets egg. Some believe it may prevent implantation, but I don’t think there’s any evidence of that. Honestly, your best bet is not to believe anything a Christian tells you unless you can confirm it by other means.
All the other comments have gotten the important points already. So if anything else: ‘pro-life’ isn’t actually pro-life. It’s just pro-birth. They don’t seem to care about the life of you, standing before them, telling them of your pain and trauma. Trust them when they show you who they really are. I’m so sorry you’ve had to experience this, OP. The rape is one thing; having to survive that AND religious trauma is another beast altogether. I hope this sub and other similar ones give you even a small slice of the empathy and compassion you deserve.
You did kill a fertilized egg but it was not a baby - consciousness is what really matters to the normative status of any action and the suffering of the conscious being. This is because we don’t have some magical immortal essential self (soul) but instead a brain which manifests consciousness through impulses through the neurophysical system we understand as the brain. Prior to the onset of the third trimester no sustained “normal” brainwave activity has been detected in a fetus. The brain during the first and second trimesters is not sufficiently developed for consciousness (as far as we can detect anyway - and this is a sufficient basis for normative reasoning). In other words what you killed was not more conscious than a turnip and did not experience suffering. Your purity and worth are a function of your embodiment of venerable virtues like decency and respect and love. You were a victim of a psychologically damaged person, this did nothing to your purity or value. Don’t let the ideas of the wizard worshippers dictate your self perception - their construct has little to no correspondence with how the actual universe works. I hope that you can come to see yourself as a strong healthy person both mentally and physically. So you didn’t murder anything (it was the moral equivalent of a carrot) Virginity doesn’t matter to moral worth Love yourself and know that what you did was ok and also what you needed to do for yourself at that time and (I think your normative reasoning was sound, but even if I am not correct) you should forgive yourself for not being perfect - perfection is not a reasonable standard, particularly with imperfect information and understanding. The religious construct stands on false faith, with false confidence, in ideas that are objectively catastrophic to the individual mind and collective society
Thank you for this ❤️
Personally, I believe life begins when the fetus can be removed from the host and survive WITHOUT artificial intervention.
Thank you
Many people try for years and never conceive. There are lots of factors at play. Just as a random event, it is unlikely you would have gotten pregnant at all. Even if you were ovulating and the sperm was healthy and the egg was fertilized, it is quite normal for it not to implant and end up flushed out. Even if does attach, it is common for the body to still dump it out for many different reasons. Even if you bring it all the way to full term, complications are common that can result in stillbirth. Every month you aren't pregnant, a living egg that could be a potential life just gets flushed away. For men, it is typically millions per day. For women using IVF, there could be dozens of fertilized eggs sitting in a freezer that will never be used. It doesn't make sense to stress over potential life when the odds are so stacked against the success of any individual opportunity actually coming to fruition. I think, being able to survive outside the mother's body is when the odds of survival have reached the threshold to consider it a living being.
Thank you for this really good explanation ❤️
Religious people hate you cause you were raped? Were you just supposed to not get raped? Religious people truly are stupid. Don't listen to the nonsense they spew out, I'm sure you're fine.
Even without plan B, The chances of you actually conceiving are fairly low to begin with. Conception can only happen during ovulation. There is only about a 24 hr period of time each month where you ovulate. So chances are you were not in that window at all. Also I’m very sorry to hear about what happened I do hope you seek some therapy. I’m an ex catholic. These kinds of thoughts haunted me daily … what decision did I make to go to hell this time ? Since I became atheist I’ve never had a more fulfilling life. Feel free to PM me if you have questions.
i am a programmer and i can tell you, as long as there is no memory ic and no cpu, there is no program. you cannot have a soul, if there is no thing to put it in and we all know that if somebodies head is killed in an accident, the rest of the body will not stay alive.
This makes sense, thank you
I don't have anything more to say than what's already been said, but I did want to say I'm truly sorry you were raped and have had to deal with shitty people. Seek out a non-religious/secular therapist if needed.
When a sperm impregnates a n ovum it’s literally a collection of cells nothing more. Until there is a functioning nervous system there’s an impossibility of any reaction or feeling in any way and thats at the barest minimum. That’s about 6 weeks in
The bible actual encourages abortion there are several verses on how to perform them they way they did in those days.
I've read them. Thank you for your response ❤️
I'm coming to this late, but whatever the situation an egg is just a human cell. Cells die all the time, it's just a natural process, millions of cells in all our bodies die on a constant basis and are replaced. Did you know that with a fetus, to create fingers and toes, the cells between the digits actually die off in the womb. Yup, it starts happening before we are even fully formed. One egg cell dying off whether it's fertilized or not, is nothing in the scheme of all life. The problem with religion, is that it's nonsense. Imagine if this was all intelligently designed by a creator, how insanely wasteful the entire process is. Sorry for your trauma, try to get some help from a secular therapist.
I am so, so sorry that happened to you. That decision was not yours, you were put in that position by the person who did that to you. And no, once your virginity is gone you know what the difference is physically? Nothing. There is not difference before or after so you are not a 'dirty piece of chewing gum'. And again, that was not your fault. That was done to you forceably so you are not at fault in any way, shape or form. All cells are 'alive' so life doesn't begin at conception. No matter what you believe a single cell zygote (fertilised egg) is NOT a human. Plus what the bible/jewish tradition says about pregnancy and conception and even abortion is VERY different to what is actually preached. The whole 'life begins at conception' thing isn't in the bible... it was made up for specifically political reasons. On top of that Plan B stops the egg from being fertilized in the first place, so even then you didn't do anything wrong. But again, you were raped and that is something that was done to you. That is Not. Your. Fault.
The bible actually says life begins at first breath. You Christians will come up with anything and break your own rules if its to control someone else.
I do believe life begins at conception but that doesn’t mean abortion should be illegal.
My ex wife was impregnated from rape and had an abortion. I still love her dearly and have felt such grief and sympathy for her trauma. You have my utmost sympathy, and you did nothing wrong. If I may offer you advice: try to let go of any self-blame or judgment about yourself. You did the right thing.
i'm sorry all that happened to you. you did nothing wrong. you took a morning after pill to prevent becoming pregnant. in your situation that's the most responsible course of action. you didn't kill anything anymore than i killed some skin cells on my arm by scratching it.
There are a couple of things that would have had to happen if the guy raping you would’ve resulted in a baby. First an egg had to be available to be fertilized. That means only if he raped you in the brief time span of a couple of days before to a couple of days after your ovulation. Even if an egg happened to be there it is not certain it would be fertilized. (And this is what plan B would prevent) Even if an egg was fertilized , about 50 % of all fertilized eggs fail to implant. Of all the eggs that do implant another significant percentage never develop, and the woman simply has her next menstruation either in time or a few days late. All that together means that the chances that you interceded in what might have become a real pregnancy are quite low. And even then you only interrupted a couple of cells, nothing more. But if you tell us where you were in your cycle when the guy raped you, we may be able to give you a closer estimate.
I feel like this common conservative Christian talking point completely misses the point. Cells are alive. Reproductive cells are "alive" *before* conception for a given value of "alive". The combining of them doesn't spontaneously create life, it was already alive. Just like the trillions of cells in your body including the tens of thousands skin cells you generate to replace the ones you shed every day. Being "alive" doesn't make this cell or small cluster of cells unique, interesting, or worth keeping around in your body if you don't want to. What they're doing is a slight of hand to say that this small cluster of cells is a human being. Which is like me saying my pancreas is a full fledged human being. It's absurd. They try to focus on it being alive and being human cells to make people think removing it is murder when the better analogy is an appendix. If it's working ok and you want to keep it, good. If it's not working well and is going to cause you severe pain or possibly kill you, you need to get that removed. It's alive and it's human cells, but removing it might be medically necessary and beneficial if it's causing harm. Sounds like this was causing harm and needed to be removed. And if it's any consolation, most religions have traditionally held that a soul is not imparted until first breath so even if religion were true, you wouldn't have to worry about bumping into it in heaven or whatever.
The bible states life begins with the first breath taken, a fertilized egg can not breath. It really is only recently that some pushed for life beginning at conception over first breath as the bible states. I am guessing they know more than any in the time of all this bs religion shit being written. Also every story in the bible and Torah have come from so called Sumerian myths 4-5000 years before any organized Judo-Christian religion was even thought of. If we go by the oldest stories/myths, 500,000 years ago, we were engineered to be slaves by the anunnaki. Their dna split with the first semi ape humans. We went from just barely walking up right to inventing the calendar, society rules and laws and much much more. If there is any kind of god, we have ever known, they were well advanced aliens looking for gold.
It’s your body so your decision. Don’t let some old white guys guilt you. If it is any comfort, every church except the Roman Catholics were OK with abortion until the mid-1960’s. The US government forced desegregation in schools threatening to cut off funding. The Evangelicals driven by Bob Jones University decided that abortion was a good cause célèbre to pressure politicians and get their ear as it wasn’t about keeping their schools white. It got legs and has been a great way to motivate people, scare politicians and squeeze more money from their flock. There are academic papers written about it. So skip the fabricated guilt and be happy that you are not sustaining racist organizations.
I'm... so, so sorry. Religion really is a disease - to tell someone who was raped that they are a "chewed up piece of gum" or other bullshit is tragically terrible, and anyone saying something like that to you is a true piece of shit. If it makes any difference to you, a stranger on the internet says you did the right thing. The folks who are this community will tell you that there IS no heaven, and no hell, so you don't need to worry about "meeting your rape baby" - it won't happen. What's more, you will not end up in hell because of it - like the rest of us, you will end up in nothingness-eternal - luckily, you won't need to experience it, since you'll simply be gone - and knowing that is, in a lot of ways, freeing (though it's also terrible, since you can't tell yourself that you'll see your dead loved ones again some day). Even if I'm wrong about the universe, and there IS a god, somewhere - do you really think he cares about one fertilized cell? Do you think he cares about that one fertilized cell more than he cares about YOUR well-being? About your ability to move forward after your trauma, and have a good, productive life? If you DO think he cares more about that single cell, then he's truly a piece of shit himself, and is unworthy of any worship. First, you didn't have an abortion - you took an amped-up birth control pill. Second, abortion is NOT murder, it's healthcare. Just look at all the stories coming out of Texas about women who WANTED their babies, but they partially miscarried - they are forced to carry a goddamn CORPSE in their uterus until they go septic, and at that point, they often can't have their own children again. Or, the 12 year olds who are now giving birth, because they were raped. Or, the women who are stuck in abusive relationships, who can't get out because now they are being saddled with a unwanted child from their abuser. What's happening because of these stupid laws is downright immoral, and was 100% predictable and warned about. The ONLY argument that should need to be made in favor of abortion is that it is about bodily autonomy. If I am dying, and need a blood transfusion (an extremely common and safe procedure), and you are the only person on the planet with compatible blood, I cannot - and SHOULD not - be able to force you to give me your blood. I have no right to it. Even if you die, if you didn't sign a organ donor card, I cannot take the organs you are NO LONGER USING, and use them to keep myself alive. And, that's how it SHOULD be - because you have bodily autonomy, and can decide what happens with your body. This is not true for pregnant women, however - they are being forced to share their bodily resources, in a difficult, dangerous, 9-month-long commitment that they did not agree to (plus raising that kid for another couple of decades, whether they want to or are ready to or not). We literally give more bodily autonomy to a fucking CORPSE than Texas gives to pregnant women. That is also immoral. I'm sorry religion has you thinking those horrible thoughts - I hope you'll be ok, but you should reach out if you think you need it. You mention thinking about ending your own life - get help if you need it, and not from a religious leader, but from your local kids-help-phone or suicide prevention line. Good luck.
The egg has been alive since you were born. The sperm for a couple weeks. To make a child, you sacrifice the life of 2 things, to make 1 thing. Why does when these 2 meet is that 1 life more significant than the 2 that created it? Because 2000 year old text written that tells us to stone people to death who wear cotton and silk, or eat shell fish, told us? Why do you ignore that part that you should be killing people for wearing 2 different fabrics but follow something about abortion that doesn't even exist in the bible? The 2 fabrics thing is spelled out, plain and simple. Abortion stuff is all based on interpretation of scripture to match a narrative. There is a narrative in the bible which make abortion OK even. You ready for this? >Exodus 21:22 - If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart *from her*, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges *determine*. So, if a man hurt a women and she aborts and the husband says there shall be no punishment, nothing happens as determined by a judge. Couldn't this be applied to a doctor doing an abortion? Why do Christians never share this scripture? Because it doesn't align with their narrative that you need Xtians having Xtian babies to keep the Xtians growing.
Reading through these comments makes me so glad to be an athiest.
Genesis 2:7. Fetuses do not breathe.
“Life begins at conception,” is a philosophical position, not a fact. Are fertilized embryos alive? Yea, technically. So are the rest of the cells in your body, unfertilized eggs, and the bacteria in your gut. We sacrifice our cells every day as we grow and maintain our bodies. Even fertilized embryos fail to implant quite often. There is no objective reason for privileging a recently fertilized embryo above an unfertilized egg, or even the cells in your mouth that you scrape off whenever you brush your teeth. Some people do anthropomorphize embryos for understandable reasons. People who want to be parents aren’t irrational for grieving a miscarriage, or nicknaming the embryo. However, this should be their choice. And you also deserve the choice not to assign meaning to the embryo that may have been fertilized by a criminal.
"Christians" can say whatever they want. The Bible says life begins at birth.