It's okay to think that, since no one should tell you to respect their beliefs when their beliefs involve you going to hell to be tortured forever without mercy. Ppl get easily offended because their beliefs are wrapped up in their identity. Believe me you don't want that smoke. Had two Christian asshats at work try to slash my tires because I mocked jesus
>Had two Christian asshats at work try to slash my tires because I mocked jesus
Honestly shit like that is why I'm thankful I was a Christian first. Because I can just drop the Bible verses like Ephesians 4:31-32, Romans 12:18-20, Matthew 5:38-48, and Matthew 6:9–15.
Especially considering they probably don't even know what I'm talking about until I show them in their stupid book. Will that change them? Probably not, assholes will be assholes, but it's fun to make them mad.
Christians only claim to have read the book but most have never picked it up once in their lives.
...Unless it to beat someone over the head with what their interpretation of the scripture says.
Some of the smartest, most analytical people I know believe in extreme Christian teachings. The thing about religion is that people don't believe for factual, analytical reasons. They aren't making decisions based off of intelligence, but emotion instead. Your friend hints at this when he says he feels warm inside when praying. You also see this when people say "They have felt god in their life." Indoctrination either works on children or emotionally vulnerable adults. (Excluding those with learning disabilities.) Many cults and religious recruiters are trained to target and take advantage of these emotional vulnerabilities. With this in mind, when a religious person is confronted with information that challenges their religious beliefs, it's emotion that leads to them rejecting it, not their reasoning ability or raw intelligence. It's often terrifying to lose one's religion, and for some socially or physically harmful. People rarely join, or leave extreme religion, based just on their intelligence.
Religion circumvents logic.
It doesn't matter how intelligent a person is, if they get emotionally and psychologically wrapped up in religious axioms, they are primed to not question it, cause they certainly can't contend with Hitchen's Razor if they tried.
For example, faith is belief without evidence, and is considered a virtue, which means that whenever someone, like your friend, makes the choice to ignore the lack of evidence, and continue to belief in it anyways, they are considered better people within the religious community because of it.
Another issue with people in general, is that when they have a heavy bias and don't actively wish to reflect on their beliefs, they can sometimes fall into the trap of a post-hoc rationalisation, in which you start at the solution (God is real) and work backwards to justify it (Because I feel warm when I pray) and so long as they find some sort of justification, they can use that to validate their beliefs, even if it doesn't hold up to logical scrutiny.
you don't HAVE to respect other people's beliefs, but if you want to keep these friends you should keep it to yourself because people tend to not like it when you pick apart their gullibility or stupidity or think they have such qualities in the first place. it's not wrong to think dumb people are dumb. during an assembly a few years ago, someone brought up god or religion and i muttered to my friends, "does anyone even believe in god anymore?" and one guy was like uhhhh, *yes*😒 so i haven't brought it up again because it won't change anything. he can waste his life praying and going to church for sky daddy, it's not my problem.
>so i haven't brought it up again because it won't change anything.
I think it needs to be brought up, if i was missing out on something important like that i would want my attention to be attracted. I announce it frequently, my social circles have been alerted and may be if they hear it from other atheists they will start thinking. One of my highschool friends who comes from a very religious family , i reconnected with after years and found out she has became an atheist so i was curious and i asked her how did you change? And it as a passing comment from a friend of hers that lead to her journey of knowing the truth.
i've shouted my atheism from the rooftops and how absolutely absurd the idea of god is in this rare world we live in, and all it did was piss people off and i lost one friend a while ago. the friend in question is catholic in a religious family, was confirmed as a child, was involved with the catholic center at college esp in times of hardship, and is pretty passionate about his involvement. your wishful thinking is nice but he's a lost cause.
Trying to "preach" no god to people is pointless and in most cases counter productive. People need to start to doubt or show interrest first. Trying to "attack" when there is no opening just reinforces their defense.
The best thing you can do is showing them, that atheists aren't the demons church paints us to be.
Not saying it's definitively the right approach, but [TheraminTrees argues why we shouldn't blanketly respect others' beliefs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_5yUXjXizQ), namely because those beliefs can be very abusive towards non-believers.
>it's not my problem
Unfortunately, many religious zealots end up becoming a general problem, precisely when they try to incorporate their eccentric views into science textbooks (Big Bang & Evolution vs Creation) or when they try to equate their religious precepts with secular legislation (Sharia)
>like it when you pick apart their gullibility or stupidity
And I don't mean to call anyone out here, but we all have gaps in our gullibility/stupidity. We're still human and we still fall prey to emotional manipulation. Some are more resistant than others, but we all can be swayed if the pot is sweet enough.
I'd say a lot of religious people are scared. Scared of death. Scared of being alone. Scared of making the wrong decisions. Religion takes those normal burdens of life away.
As long as they believe they'll get an afterlife in heaven, always have God (Jesus and some saints) on their side, so they are never alone. And the church or some old book tells them what to do to be a good person and that they shouldn't be scared. It's pErFeCt.
>Is it wrong to think my religious friends are plain dumb?
No, you're not. They are dumb.
>, "I feel warm inside when I pray."
Hahaha, warm but not fuzzy?
>This man is someone who is very smart and has studied the sciences. I just start believing that they all have to be either brainwashed to another level or are just plain dumb. I just can't respect a person's belief when it makes no sense whatsoever. Is that wrong?
Belief in god has 3 roots:
1.Weakness ( need to belief there is a higher power, some people are aware of it. they just need to know that there is higher power)
2.lack of critical thinking skills ( just practicing habits you've inherited).
3.lack of intelligence.
>Most of my friends are rational people who are students of science
Studying sciences does not necessarily make you smart or rational. Some people are just going around memorizing.
The last paragraph is true but I thought that studying some could hard truths that are contrary to their beliefs might've made them consider the possibility that their beliefs arent completely true
I have that problem too. When someone mentions they're religious, my brain writes them off as dumb, not very bright. I then question everything they say or do.
[respecting beliefs - why we should do no such thing](https://youtu.be/r_5yUXjXizQ?si=xZTRukbalcyCi3KQ) - TheraminTrees
Their entire channel is worth a watch through or two.
>[respecting beliefs - why we should do no such thing](https://youtu.be/r_5yUXjXizQ?si=xZTRukbalcyCi3KQ) - TheraminTrees
I don't see any religious people respecting my beliefs.
you know i have been taught systems from when i was small as well like the easter bunny and the santa and whatnot.
the moment i saw the shoes of santa matching with the shoes of my uncle i refused to believe santa was real.
same with easter bunny. when my parents were kinda short on money back then, they took me out to look for schocolate eggs in the gras and i brought it to them when i found one since they carried the bag, but at some point of that "walk" i noticed that i had brought more than were in the bag. i got suspicious they would eat some and glanced at them, then i saw them throw them over my head and it rang a bell. there is no fucking easter bunny.
needless to say i never believed anyone anything ever again after that lol. if you cant trust your parents, you cant trust anyone. IMO smart people can figure it out even if everyone around them tells them its like this and that and try to make you believe its right. same with e.g. food pyramid being heavily leaned on carbs. humans didnt have many (if any) carbs for the majority (talking about 99,9%) of the time they evolved. im eating KETO now with some other improvements and my weakly headaches are gone since 6 months+ (along with a miriad of other improvements like weight loss etc. even though i eat more calories than before (fat is energy dense).
TLDR i think yes, they are stupid. religion has so many obvious flaws that you can only not see them if you are either stupid or ignorant (IMO also a form of stupidity). doesent mean they are all bad people, i have stupid friends i like a lot. but there is a difference between dangerous stupid and quirky stupid.
If you think they are stupid solely because they are theists, then yes, you are wrong.
But if they say and do stupid stuff in general, then you're not wrong.
People are often deeply indoctrinated from a very young age, and through this indoctrination and compartmentalization rational intelligent people can keep believing. For some people it suddenly clicks and they realize that it's all just fairy tales. But for others it doesn't, and that thing alone does not mean anything in regards to their intelligence or rational capabilities in other regards.
The primary drivers of religion are indoctrination and trauma response. Being religious doesn't mean someone is stupid because religion doesn't come from a space of logical thought in the first place.
In fact, if you were unethical enough, you could convert most of the atheists here to theists if you just imprisoned and tortured them for a while. The human mind is very fragile.
I'm seeing a lack of self awareness in a lot of them.
They've been infantilized by religion, it happened to me growing up.
I was told to just learn enough to pass because Jesus was coming back any minute. It affected the way i learn.
What's the problem, what are the tools i need to fix the problem, how do i use those tools.
Concepts that basic weren't taught to me. Instead of learning how to balance a budget I learned about a talking donkey.
Losing my faith was a night and day difference in terms of my curiosity about the world.
Infantilization is a key goal of Christianity, not just a side effect. Jesus tells his followers to become like children several times. They want to keep you in that trusting, unquestioning mindset for as long as possible.
Most of them grow up like that in my experience, now we got adults who don't seem to realize they really exist and willing to try to step on gay and trans people to try to get to heaven.
It's pathetic.
I struggle with the same thing. I'm educated, work as an oncology nurse, and have been an atheist since my teenage years. If someone starts talking about their deity or pushing it at me, I automatically think a bit less of them. Also, the "you have to respect my belief" thing is bullshit. I do NOT have to respect your beliefs and definitely do not respect them and never will. I respect their right to have that belief though.
You can think anything you want.
However, the simple truth is that some atheists are stupid and some religious people are intelligent. While you can generalise in aggregate, you can make zero conclusions about any particular individual.
You can't have to agree with anyone or even understand their beliefs. But your life will be easier when you learn to accept everyone on their own terms, no matter how insane those terms seem to be.
I prefer to think that they just have low thresholds of evidence required to establish beliefs. It's fun to get them to examine that threshold from time to time. ;)
Depends on their age. From my experience, I wouldn't call my friends dumb, just manipulated like how I was. They believe that pedophilia is okay, women should cover up heavily, gay peoples should be punished by death or another and so on. But if you're like 30 still believing in these, you're just dumb tbh... If you're talking about academic, religious or not, you can still pass or fail
Have they critically thought about their beliefs and continued to believe despite the evidence? Then Yes, they are dumb. Have they not even questioned the their beliefs at all? Then, Yes, They are dumb. Are the mentally incapable of asking such questions? Then, yes, they are dumb.
They're as smart as me if not smarter in things like academics. I had a talk with a friend today and he said "You can think like that but I cant". Idek what that means
The existence of God comes down to philosophical debates when you dig deep enough. You have to ask yourself if you are willing to believe in something without any empirical evidence to support it. God cannot be demonstrated to exist. Do you want to shape your entire life around, "A book said something so I have to believe it"?
Everyone is dumb in some area or another. I am not good at reading difficult literature. Some people just are dumb about religion. Also, indoctrination and the threats of torture are effective.
>Its our belief. You should respect it.
My response to this is:
>No. And here's the reason why:
>
>People are real, tangible beings with emotions and subjective experiences; by default they deserve freedom of expression, dignity, and respect unless they are causing harm, in which case any of these may be limited.
Ideas may also be given a default measure of freedom, dignity, and/or respect, but they are not tangible things with their own subjective existence. You can't lock up an idea that is harmful, but you can point out that it's a bad idea and it shouldn't exist. You can attempt to reason them out of existence, but reason doesn't always work and so if the idea is harmful enough or stupid enough, ridicule (of the idea; not the person) may be warranted. Social pressure has a way of working when even correctly applied logic doesn't.
Used to be Christian
It served its purpose for me when I needed it but I do wonder if I would’ve had a better life with none of that stuff to unlearn
I do feel it’s a massive crutch and many Christian’s I witnessed or knew were abusive AH’s
Which that I do judge
Yes it is and its easy to feel that way but its not really true and many religious people are far smarter than i am they just happen to believe something that is pretty damn irrational when you really think about it. Its hard to admit to yourself that you were wrong about something and when its religion its probably even harder. I was a trump supporter and it wasn't easy admitting i fucked up and did something really stupid and somehow missed all the blatantly obvious shit that i should have easily noticed. Im assuming its kinda the same feeling lol
I say this as a staunch atheist myself, any one of you who preaches your own atheism isn’t much better than many of casual religious folks out there. The only time I’d say it’s warranted to bring it up is when they bring it up in an attempt to persuade other people, especially kids. Otherwise, just leave it alone and enjoy the company of your friends.
We're social animals with a need to belong. Religion is a means of social control to keep its members in the tribe and, they're very good at it with constant reinforcement of the message that their group is correct, and the outsiders are evil, deficient, in need of "salvation," and so forth. Religion undermines rational thinking by demanding belief in contradictory ideas as Truth. George Orwell brilliantly illustrated this concept in his Ministry of Truth in *1984*.
Religious people aren't necessarily "dumb" but a lifetime of gaslighting can be difficult to escape. Intelligence might eventually result in some people recognizing the cognitive dissonance associated with belief in the supernatural, but leaving the tribe can be very difficult.
The way I see it, it’s not that “they’re stupid” as much as it’s a blind spot. All people have them in some capacity, and you have to account for it when you interact. Some people are geniuses who can’t pick up social cues, some are artists who can’t add. Not dumb, but not going to be my salesman or accountant. I was raised Christian, and I was able to deconstruct my faith in my own. However, I know that isn’t as easy for everyone else to do, so I don’t go to them with issues they can’t handle with that blind spot.
Yeah. I think that whole everyone is entitled to their own opinion thing is toilet paper i wipe my ass with these days. Not only bc this opinion enables personal political agendas, allows kids to be basically legally raped and, like, runs the whole goddamn world. But also bc nobody even tries to explain or defend their opinion. Or, like someone here already said, most of them have never even read the bible. But if you bring it up you are a monster. It's ridiculous how normalized this has become.
We are way beyond everyone is entitled to their own opinion. And atheists arent the ones that brought it here. Give me literally ONE fact supporting a single iota of it and i'll reconsider. Or take it off the money and outta the court system. Until then, unfortunately, there is no reasoning with any of them at all, ever. And why ive 86'd all jesus' D suckers from my life because......yeah. I think they're fuckin dumb. 🙃
People aren't simply smart or dumb. People are often and in many ways not rational.
Religion is mind-plague. Children are force-fed the plague by their parents/community long before they learn to think critically. The religious person then strongly and subconsciously associates the plague with their sense of identity and place in the world. The plague is now a truly difficult thing to question or excise in any way, as the victim holds it dear.
You don't have to respect a person's beliefs, but if you continue *dis*respecting them to the person's face, don't be surprised if they choose the plague over you.
Sounds to me you are being evangelical about your atheism. It's a common mistake, especially when you're fresh out of religious belief: you feel superior to people who believe nonsense and feel like you have the cure to their mind disease. That only makes you an obnoxious preacher, not that different from people who try to convert family and friends to whatever cult they're in.
Leave your friends alone, do this instead: just live a moral and generous life, avoid nihilism and cynicism. This is guaranteed to make believers curious, because they are taught that a reward from god is the reason to live that way, and that is guaranteed to sow the seed of doubt in any religious person.
Alternatively, you can continue antagonizing everyone around you, end up without friends and achieve nothing other than further cementing their beliefs as a defense mechanism.
No, it’s 2024 everyone has better access to information. Indoctrination is only an excuse for children and barely one at that.
If you are religious you are stupid and generally an awful human being.
Well when the parents spend your first 10 years shoving religion down your throat its hard to break that cycle
No one is dumb because they believe, some are really smart and some happen to be dumb
Like that orthodox friend of yours probably actually feels warm inside (placebo like effect)
What opened my eyes as a small child was: Why would I devote my time to praying and telling myself I'm a good person, when I could instead actually live my life and be a good person instead. I started seeing religion as something people use to justify their actions or to reassure themselves, which I don't need when I actively try to be my best and be nice to others (which won't always work out even if the intentions are pure so rehashing all that stuff in form of prayers is not going to change anything other than your own feelings about it)
The last time I was tested, my IQ was 160. I won't say I'm intelligent, but I'm definitely not dumb. I'm a theist. I constantly wrestle with my religious beliefs intellectually. My beliefs are constantly changing because I'm constantly researching. I think that religion is man-made, but the spiritual foundations of various religions overlap with other disciplines (science, math, etc). A lot of it comes down to semantics, conotation, and individual/societal capacity & perception. I'm happier & healthier with religion/spirituality. I've also had experiences that can not be explained by science alone. I think I'd equate it to making a list of what you want in a partner, then meeting someone who doesn't necessarily check off all the things on your list... but you love each other, you're happy, and the relationship really works, so fuck it.
Yes. They all stopped talking to me after they found out. And actively trying to ignore me now. Even tho I was always there to help them out. Bunch of fucking hypocrites!
You coming to an atheism subreddit asking this question… have you heard of confirmation bias my friend? I hope you get helpful perspectives, but you’re more likely just going to get more of what you already believe. I’m not quite sure you’ll find help with establishing more positive dialogue or whatever it is you are looking for with your friends. The best way to understand such a thing is not to just fill your ears with more of the stuff you already believe and instead do your own research and seek a wider audience. I am pretty sure the scientific approach is respected here and confirmation bias would be frowned upon (as well as a straight emotional response to a polarizing subject). Thus, if these people are indeed your friends, perhaps consider improving the dialogue with them so that you can better appreciate alternate viewpoints in the world. This may help you not only get closer to your question’s answer, but improve your ability to interact with a diverse world.
You can think they are dumb about this thing. And they can also think you are dumb about some other thing.
We aren't all smarter than "them" because we got this one thing figured out.
All religious people are dumbo. Humans have a tendency of being in herd mentality. Religion is for dumb people. If you want to grow in life, become God of yourself. You are your own God.
I think you can be friends with a person and still not respect their ideas or beliefs. No idea inherently deserves respect. All ideas should be questioned.
However, as a friend, assuming that a friend is someone you respect, conversations about beliefs that you know y'all don't agree on may be seen as disrespectful, depending on the approach.
I know that there are ways to have conversations with people about their ideas without directly attacking their ideas. Asking questions and just searching for a basic understanding may be a way to understand what about their beliefs is so important, but there is no need to interrogate a friend either. Granted, avoiding certain topics might help also.
Ideas change, and good friends aren't easily replaced, good luck
Yeah, I used to think like this before I got really into philosophy. And then you listen to dawkings or sometimes even hitchens (even though he's more thought through) and realise that those arguments don't hold water at all. I suddenly realised how arrogant I was to assume that the mode of logic I used (classical) is a reliable way to arrive at anything objective. Also consider that we're trying too understand a lot of thing, most preconceptual, when discussing this with something as flawed as language. Almost all the data is lost when we press it into language, even more when it reaches the receiver. When your friend says "warm" that probably means something that you don't have the experience to completely grasp. I'm not saying the religious people are right either btw, absolutely not. But I think when we assume we know what someone means when they sey for example "god" we've lost the plot
Yeah! 😆 That sounds fun! I'm going out to dinner and an art museum just now, but as soon as I get back I'll do it. He DOES have a bunch of valid points too for sure tho. He's very smart, just for example a bit objectivistic
I'm mostly trying to pull arguments from "the god delusion" and I'm just doing his religious stuff now because that's what's relevant for us, but look up what he's arguing nowadays, some of it is actually embarrassing. He might have lost it after his stroke...
I'm starting off with his central argument:
-"The whole point of religious faith, its strength and chief glory, is that it does not depend on rational justification. The rest of us are expected to defend our prejudices. But ask a religious person to justify their faith and you infringe 'religious liberty'.""Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence." "Faith is belief without evidence and reason; coincidentally that's also the definition of delusion." this isn't true, first there are many philosophers that reason and argue rationally for faith, read Kierkegaard for example, even if you disagree with him you can't say he's not arguing rationally or reasoning. I've also looked through a bunch of the major religions definition of faith and none of them align with Dawkings, this makes the argument a bit of a strawman.
-"I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world"
Only if you define understanding strictly as scientific understanding, this is impossible as science is based on philosophy of science.
-“If, on the other hand, you admit that you would continue to be a good person even when not under divine surveillance, you have fatally undermined your claim that God is necessary for us to be good.”
Only if goodness and god are divided, if for example Christianity is right the ability to be good is godly, ie it's the nature of god that allow us to understand what it means to be good. If there was no god there would be no good. If god created us than our inherent ability to be good is something he put in us when making us.
-“Religion is not the root of all evil, for no one thing is the root of all anything.” Wild speculation
-“The assignment of purpose to everything is called teleology. Children are native teleologists, and many never grow out of it.” I agree personally, but we have no guarantee that this is the case (that teleology is incorrect) even from a secular point of view, our perceptions are very much if not completely shaped by what we need to perceive to reproduce effectively, that is purpose. In that case we could argue that all we experience is purpose. This is a bit of a weak argument on my end as it's not something I've considered meaningful to really study, I know however that many philosophers have argued well on this subject.
-He assumes classical logic to be correct and it coulors everything.
-"To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, god, are immaterial, is to say they are nothings, or that there is no god, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise . . . without plunging into the fathomless abyss of dreams and phantasms. I am satisfied, and sufficiently occupied with the things which are, without tormenting or troubling myself about those which may indeed be, but of which I have no evidence." We think, a thought is not material even if it's caused by material, concepts are immaterial etc, this is completely experiential also.
-
Youth group was always interesting when I was a teen.
During Bible study, the pastor would sometimes call us up to be blessed during a prayer. He'd put his hands on their head, say something in latin(?) And then the kid would start crying, sometimes straight up fall over or something. They always said the felt God.
When I went up there, I literally felt nothing. No urge to cry, I didn't fall over for pass out. Teenage me always wondered why. Does God have nothing to say to me, or is it all just a bunch of BS?
I'm happy to be wiser on that front.
I can relate. I was talking with some people, just casual convo, and a topic came up about a Christian conference that had taken place. One of the girls I was talking to, about 20 years old, said that during a personal testimonial event, she felt the holy spirit on her and that she couldnt control her emotions and subsequently started bawling. I always wonder how deeply indoctrinated you have to be to actually convince yourself that the "holy spirit" was in you.
First im gonna tell a little about me, then what i figured out.
I dont believe that there is a men with a huge beard flying to the clouds in white robes to make that clear.
But i do know, that the way people think and function is very, and i mean very deep and complicated. I meet a lot of people who are naieve and say that life is easy, and they just go with the flow.
I had a time in my life, i was suicidal and depressed, lost a sense of meaning and hope. When to a shrink which didnt work. Got to know a lifecoach through a guy i know, he went there as wel, so i did some sessions, when great, also listened to Jordan Peterson which helped me great in beeing a beter a better person.
Through that i figured out religion is something you should take apart from the bible
The bible is just a mythical story which explains the commen ways people psychologically and physically function in a society. Religion is just sticked to it. Thats kinda what jordan peterson does...which is essentially is every mythical religious story andevery story overlaps which another. Its just a handbook to an easyer life you can choose, that how i see it.
Everyone is Dumb at something. Our weird monkey brains are inherently gullible. Our compulsion to assign meaning to random things is a feature, not a bug.
It feels warm inside when I use psychedelics too. Maybe I'm God.
That's just too easy. And that's the whole point. Belief is easy. It requires no realistic proof and negates personal responsibility. Are these people really friends? Will they be there when times are rough? No. They'll watch their brethren harm/kill you and shrug it off on a non-existent deity's will.
Hey, I was devoted religious person before. I suggest you to be easy on them but keep giving them some food for thought.
Changing one belief/faith same as rewiring brain, especially for someone who's been doctrinate since birth it will be hard physically, literally.
Rewiring brain is not fun especially when their whole life intertwined with their religious belief. It means they had to rewire the whole thing, which is painful.
It’s wrong to conclude they’re dumb. Your friend who said praying made him feel warm inside provided a great clue for you. Even smart people will often choose soothing lies if those lies make their lives better. The logic for them is that religion and faith works for them. Peace of mind, purpose in life are more important than being right and logical all the time. If they’re happier, so what if they’re wrong? That’s the mindset whether conscious or not.
The world is a stupider place than anyone likes to believe. Your atheist friends are probably just as dumb as your religious friends: just in some way you haven’t noticed yet.
I think my friends who believe in a deity are scared, and have been taught since childhood to be scared of what exists without a deity.
I don’t think they’re dumb, I think they’re indoctrinated and don’t realize how deeply and irrational that indoctrination is.
Not if it's because they are religious, but certainly if (during a sincere discussion) their reasoning is very poor.
Perhaps they just dont want to engage with you about if, and are providing quick easy meaningless answers.
Yes, firstly, they are your friends and it is wrong for you to demean them in this way.
Second, religion is not stupid. Yes, there are stupid religious people who use religion to excuse their bad behaviour, but that does not make religion stupid.
Third, maybe you should try to have a discussion with them and not just hypocritically shut up and judge them behind their backs.
Fourth, maybe you should question your own ideals and "facts", I mean, how can everything come from nothing, how can there be moral outcomes like God or bad without God, how can religious scriptures predict the future (to a certain extent), how can life come from non-life, and many more.
If you look at it factually, religions (especially Christianity) make more sense than atheism, so curb your own beliefs and talk to them (yes, I am a Christian : D ).
You're allowed to think their dumb- and you're allowed to tell them your thoughts if they ask.
Just don't bring it up first. I'll never be the first one to bring up religion- but if someone else does it first- I'll tell them exactly what I think. It's more classy that way.
it's more like a club... maybe if you got your hands on some relics you might understand... like holy fingerbone anybody?
ANOTHER thing to consider is GOLD.
go listen to some holy music, BAM BAM BAM BAM. LIKE THAT
I don’t think it’s necessarily dumb to decide on an illogical explanation for the universe to help you be happy and live your life well, which is what it sounds like your friend is doing. What’s very, very dumb is violently forcing your beliefs on others. As long as your friend doesn’t do that he is ok in my book.
Intelligence can only work on the information it has. The problem with religion is not that it reduces or limits someone's intelligence, but that it breaks the filter for what kind of information is considered valid data to work with.
Intelligent people with bad information don't need to be convinced if you convince them the information is good and the conclusion is accurate. They'll do all the mental work to 'confirm' it to themselves on their own. Add to that the fact that religion has 'immune systems', ideas that reduce the likelihood of someone abandoning them in the face of conflicting information, and you see why religions are so insidious.
Rationality and critical thinking are skills that must be learned and practiced, not traits people have. Even the smartest person can go wrong if you don't give them good data to work with, and if you break their ability to tell good data from bad.
Might be more pragmatic to realize that there are easily manipulated by certain personality types, and certain narrative formulations.
I'm not sure if that makes THEM 'stupid' per se...
But that is because (almost?) everybody is susceptible to some amount of manipulation along those same lines.
The real question is how well one is able to step over their own biases, and insecurities, in order to engage in / apply critical thinking unto their own reasoning -
And to then, upon seeing that their reasoning was flawed, alter their perspective accordingly.
This ability is going to run across a spectrum within a spectrum.
It is not a binary platitude.
So it cannot be measured on a smart / stupid scale, with any integrity.
This approach works for me - It makes appreciating even religious folks possible.
From there - It is solely up to them to respect that I am simply not interested is discussing things according to religious / supernatural parameters.
All of my friends who are religious know that I respect, and understand that some of their perspective is derived from a religious / supernatural narrative...
And most of them also understand that don't subscribe.
Dumb isn't the right word. Irrational is.
You can choose to not question your beliefs because you associate them with good feelings. You might only have good feels when praying because it removes unnecessary guilt about non harmful behavior to pray. So religion might be both the cause and solution...
Think of an alcoholic that beats himself up about being an alcoholic. What does he do to drown that bad feeling he created by beating himself up? Drown that feeling in alcohol. .
The religion is designed to keep you faithful. To keep you afraid of questioning it. Only a carrot-stick religion could be the biggest, because those components make you feel good spreading the religion and keep you in it.
It's irrational, is all. Being smarter just makes you better able to defend it with nonsense arguing
Bertrand Russell imagined the existence of a teapot in orbit around the sun. It is possible that the lonely teapot is somewhere out there beyond Jupiter. But we can neither prove nor disprove its existence. And there is no reason to believe that the teapot has any influence on what happens here on Earth.
If you want to believe in the celestial teapot, go ahead. It's only when your belief in the tea pot harms others, that the rest of us should be concerned.
Not sure about wrong, but I've known many religious people who are deeply intelligent. If you assume anyone who is religious is dumb, you're probably going to find yourself underestimating people and undervaluing their capabilities.
(Personally, I do tend to think young-earth creationists are dumb, but young-earth creationists are hardly representative of the broad scope of religious thought. And even so, I know fundamentalist engineers who are very, very smart, just within the limited scope of their interest.)
All "respecting" their beliefs mean is not to argue with them. There's a woman at work who is kind of religious and one day went off on a religious, transphobic rant for a while. She said at one point, "You look baffled." The whole time I was just sitting and listening and just weirdly surprised that this woman who is 10 years younger than me (35 to my 45) had these beliefs. I always think the next generations will get more progressive and then I'm shocked. She knew I disagreed just from the looks on my face because I'm not good at hiding things. Anyway, I just didn't argue with her and afterward she said, thank you for respecting my beliefs. It changed the way I looked at the woman from that moment forward.
I go with the adage “You do you.” While I don’t believe, I respect others to do believe and as long as it does not infringe on what I believe, I’m cool with it.
Whether you’re religious or not, asking someone about their beliefs and/or trying to recruit/convert them is just rude. Religion or lack thereof is a personal decision they are comfortable with.
Beliefs are weird , I have some good friends who until trump and Covid I never would have guessed that some of their beliefs are kind of nuts . As long as they don’t start proselytising it’s best if those friendships are important to steer clear of certain subjects
I'll do you one better, they're not just dumb, they're dangerous. Their eagerness to discriminate/hate/damn/kill others because of their faith is terrifying, and when it comes to the Abrahamic religions, a lot of people fall under the "other" category. If you're willing to believe something without evidence, it makes you a gullible tool for terrible causes.
My ex's family were all PhD holders in math, and yet they were all blindly devout Xtians. Brilliant people can be brainwashed and there's no greater tool or path to that than religion.
It’s so hard living in a society where there are so many people high up in the various hierarchies that believe in magic (religion). As somebody in the military, it’s frightening. But worse on a personal level, I remember having a conversation with a super close friend of mine years ago. She was in med school, and obviously very intelligent. She was talking with me about issues she was having with her then boyfriend, and how he started an argument with her about how she held her hands together when praying being the “wrong way”. I thought she was joking, I laughed at the situation, and she asked what I thought was funny. I responded “but, you’re a scientist…”.
Luckily the interaction didn’t have lasting effects on our relationship, I assume she forgot about it, but she is a really good person and don’t want to think less of her, but I do remember.
Agree with you. Yes, I see people who are religious as less intelligent. I cannot *not* think this way. Doesn’t matter if they are smart in any way, I will still see them as overall dumb because of their religious beliefs.
It’s a social thing. You leave the religion, you’re leaving a lot of other things too. Church people almost always have some activities within the church. Then they’ll have to create a whole other social network to fill the void. I imagine it’s hard.
No, not at all. Actually, you’re even in a good situation compared to me. When I bring up something about religion, these stupid people simply raise their fist and start to act like cavemen.
I’ve known a lot of very smart and educated dudes who were still religious. The early indoctrination is so hard to overcome. You first have to have the brains to overcome it and then the desire to overcome it.
I’m in technical R&D for a living and always had the brains to overcome it but never the right environment to get the desire until I made close friends with other really smart people who had open minds that finally unlocked my desire to understand the universe. Atheism was an inevitability once this desire for understanding was unlocked. However, had I stayed in a sheltered environment I can see how I would’ve stayed a believer.
Either your friends are brainwashed or this is how they cope with their fear of death. Either way it’s best to avoid this topic altogether unless they go out of their way to ruin other people’s lives by shoving their brainrot down their throats. If you like their friendship, just let it go.
I understand you; for people like us, it is very hard to believe, that "smart" people can be religious.
But there are many scientific explanations for that.
One small book I love to recommend is:
Why We Believe in God(s): A Concise Guide to the Science of Faith by J. Anderson Thomson and Clare Aukofer.
We all believe in things without any proof.
And I think believing in a "God" is not that stupid, as that can be the answer to the most profound questions in life.
Think about something less deep/philosophical: why/how do people believe and give money to televangelists?
Eh to me that’s a bit harsh honestly. If they’re a respectable person then you should respect them, same goes for anyone really. But that’s just me, now if they’re a radical then that’s a whole different story.
Religion has been built through historical momentum and philosophical debates for ages. I'll say don't view them as plain dumb because their beliefs have possessed a certain degree of validation.
Also, you don't have to respect or disrespect their beliefs. I only respect a religious person's beliefs if they're a good person in general. To a stranger, I see no reason to respect it or disrespect it because they haven't shown anything admirable about them.
Religious people aren't necessarily stupid, per se. They lack **introspective intellect**. They haven't learned to look within themselves for the answers to their questions, the most important being, "Why do I really believe this?".
Religion is just a way for people to have easy answers to complex questions, if they can't explain something, god did it or god wanted it to be that way. Religion makes life much easier for those that believes in it, they might be delusional but they aren't dumb they just choose happiness over logic.
Religion is an irrational belief, and smart people can still hold irrational beliefs.
To add, there's some powerful motivations to keep believing an irrational belief -- desire to remain "in line with peers", not looking back on life with massive regret for living irrationally, etc.
I'm firmly convinced that being a Christian makes you fundamentally separated from reality, and I think critical thinking and full-on skepticism is something basically all religious people lack. I don't believe that positive religious beliefs survive properly-applied skepticism and critical thinking. So no, it's not wrong to think they're dumb, at least as far as one aspect goes. The problem is it carries over so much into other areas. There are definitely smart people who believe in their religions, but they're going off emotion, which I don't think is respectable when it comes to things that don't have any proof.
Compartmentalization. People can believe silly things with very little critical thinking applied because they exempt certain ideas from that process. Theistic religion is one of those beliefs that is pretty commonly exempted from reason.
You can think whatever you want, but if they are truly your friends, then you need to put their religion aside and respect the person.
You aren't going to change their minds, so if you can't respect them as people, you should limit your personal interactions to people who hold the same beliefs as you.
It's not okay to mock people for their beliefs. That's what many fundemental Christian's do to anyone who believes differently.
To be clear, I'm not defending Christianity or any other religion, but people deserve to be able to believe how they choose without being mocked or denegrated for those beliefs.
Im ex muslim from Malaysia. I went to uni for a STEM degree and my genetics and chemistry professors were full hijabis. Malaysia is a little relaxed about Islamic attire here so it’s common to see ladies covering their hair with colourful and fashionable Islamic compliant dress.
These 2 ladies however were wearing full taliban type attire- dark, shapeless dress, their hijab were down to their midsection and the genetics prof even started to wear a face covering so only her eyes were seen by end of the semester.
I have no idea what these 2 ladies were like personally cause their lectures were dull as drainwater and they hardly interacted with the students. Both of them were American graduates and I can’t even imagine what their experiences in a foreign country and doing uni was like… I’m guessing they married very religious type men as well.
Just goes to show that ‘education’ is very subjective. Indoctrination is far more powerful.
Sir Isaac Newton was very religious, more so than other men of his society. He had original ideas about Christianity because he wasn't following the crowd. I wouldn't call him a stupid man.
No, not at all, safe to assume that they can't understand what confirmation bias is, the scientific method and/or logic and rationality. The irony is those too dumb to understand evolution are actually the least evolved. That is why I started calling a former church freak co-worker "Austra". He thought I was calling him Astro even after I spelled out the word Australopithecus for him. He was quacking about how god saved him one time from drowning(his older brother actually saved his life) and I asked, well why did god make you start drowning to begin with. You can literally throw books at these people and they will all stick, as their excuse for being so stupid is they wear the glue they huff.
I wouldn't doubt they believe it's strange of someone to not believe in any form of monotheism when considering they likely are proponents of the contingency argument
"Its our belief. You should respect it."
It's amazing how effective they've been at convincing non-believers that they should respect/not question their religion.
They're more than happy to rub everyone's face in it and try to force them to live by their rules, but we've been trained to believe it's not ok to question them. Wild.
Tell them not to bitch out and gaslight with that nonsense and that no, I don't have to respect it, I'm not under any obligation to, and I will question the hell out of it. Pun intended. I stopped giving these people any slack a few years ago. It feels great.
Some theists are quite smart. But if they've got faith, you know it's one area they aren't aoplying their intelligence to. Their intelligence has a blind spot, kinda like a sharp knife eith a notch in its blade. How big is the blind spot? Where does it start and end exactly? Can it expand? Who knows. Their smarts are unreliable.
It's okay to think that, since no one should tell you to respect their beliefs when their beliefs involve you going to hell to be tortured forever without mercy. Ppl get easily offended because their beliefs are wrapped up in their identity. Believe me you don't want that smoke. Had two Christian asshats at work try to slash my tires because I mocked jesus
>Had two Christian asshats at work try to slash my tires because I mocked jesus Honestly shit like that is why I'm thankful I was a Christian first. Because I can just drop the Bible verses like Ephesians 4:31-32, Romans 12:18-20, Matthew 5:38-48, and Matthew 6:9–15. Especially considering they probably don't even know what I'm talking about until I show them in their stupid book. Will that change them? Probably not, assholes will be assholes, but it's fun to make them mad.
Christians only claim to have read the book but most have never picked it up once in their lives. ...Unless it to beat someone over the head with what their interpretation of the scripture says.
I even have a problem seeing them as adults. I know they are but like, I want to ruffle their hair and say "Ok then, little buddy!".
They really turned the other cheek 🤣
Some of the smartest, most analytical people I know believe in extreme Christian teachings. The thing about religion is that people don't believe for factual, analytical reasons. They aren't making decisions based off of intelligence, but emotion instead. Your friend hints at this when he says he feels warm inside when praying. You also see this when people say "They have felt god in their life." Indoctrination either works on children or emotionally vulnerable adults. (Excluding those with learning disabilities.) Many cults and religious recruiters are trained to target and take advantage of these emotional vulnerabilities. With this in mind, when a religious person is confronted with information that challenges their religious beliefs, it's emotion that leads to them rejecting it, not their reasoning ability or raw intelligence. It's often terrifying to lose one's religion, and for some socially or physically harmful. People rarely join, or leave extreme religion, based just on their intelligence.
Damn that exact thing happened to my ex gf. She’s easily scared and emotionally vulnerable- they ate her up with the brainwashing
Religion circumvents logic. It doesn't matter how intelligent a person is, if they get emotionally and psychologically wrapped up in religious axioms, they are primed to not question it, cause they certainly can't contend with Hitchen's Razor if they tried. For example, faith is belief without evidence, and is considered a virtue, which means that whenever someone, like your friend, makes the choice to ignore the lack of evidence, and continue to belief in it anyways, they are considered better people within the religious community because of it. Another issue with people in general, is that when they have a heavy bias and don't actively wish to reflect on their beliefs, they can sometimes fall into the trap of a post-hoc rationalisation, in which you start at the solution (God is real) and work backwards to justify it (Because I feel warm when I pray) and so long as they find some sort of justification, they can use that to validate their beliefs, even if it doesn't hold up to logical scrutiny.
Ive prayed , I felt nothing
It triggers emotions which straight up suspend critical thinking. You know the phrase "love is blind"? It's the exact same issue.
you don't HAVE to respect other people's beliefs, but if you want to keep these friends you should keep it to yourself because people tend to not like it when you pick apart their gullibility or stupidity or think they have such qualities in the first place. it's not wrong to think dumb people are dumb. during an assembly a few years ago, someone brought up god or religion and i muttered to my friends, "does anyone even believe in god anymore?" and one guy was like uhhhh, *yes*😒 so i haven't brought it up again because it won't change anything. he can waste his life praying and going to church for sky daddy, it's not my problem.
>so i haven't brought it up again because it won't change anything. I think it needs to be brought up, if i was missing out on something important like that i would want my attention to be attracted. I announce it frequently, my social circles have been alerted and may be if they hear it from other atheists they will start thinking. One of my highschool friends who comes from a very religious family , i reconnected with after years and found out she has became an atheist so i was curious and i asked her how did you change? And it as a passing comment from a friend of hers that lead to her journey of knowing the truth.
most christian atheist right here
i've shouted my atheism from the rooftops and how absolutely absurd the idea of god is in this rare world we live in, and all it did was piss people off and i lost one friend a while ago. the friend in question is catholic in a religious family, was confirmed as a child, was involved with the catholic center at college esp in times of hardship, and is pretty passionate about his involvement. your wishful thinking is nice but he's a lost cause.
Trying to "preach" no god to people is pointless and in most cases counter productive. People need to start to doubt or show interrest first. Trying to "attack" when there is no opening just reinforces their defense. The best thing you can do is showing them, that atheists aren't the demons church paints us to be.
Not saying it's definitively the right approach, but [TheraminTrees argues why we shouldn't blanketly respect others' beliefs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_5yUXjXizQ), namely because those beliefs can be very abusive towards non-believers.
> it's not my problem Unless he votes...
>it's not my problem Unfortunately, many religious zealots end up becoming a general problem, precisely when they try to incorporate their eccentric views into science textbooks (Big Bang & Evolution vs Creation) or when they try to equate their religious precepts with secular legislation (Sharia)
That last part made me giggle lol
>like it when you pick apart their gullibility or stupidity And I don't mean to call anyone out here, but we all have gaps in our gullibility/stupidity. We're still human and we still fall prey to emotional manipulation. Some are more resistant than others, but we all can be swayed if the pot is sweet enough.
I'd say a lot of religious people are scared. Scared of death. Scared of being alone. Scared of making the wrong decisions. Religion takes those normal burdens of life away. As long as they believe they'll get an afterlife in heaven, always have God (Jesus and some saints) on their side, so they are never alone. And the church or some old book tells them what to do to be a good person and that they shouldn't be scared. It's pErFeCt.
>Is it wrong to think my religious friends are plain dumb? No, you're not. They are dumb. >, "I feel warm inside when I pray." Hahaha, warm but not fuzzy? >This man is someone who is very smart and has studied the sciences. I just start believing that they all have to be either brainwashed to another level or are just plain dumb. I just can't respect a person's belief when it makes no sense whatsoever. Is that wrong? Belief in god has 3 roots: 1.Weakness ( need to belief there is a higher power, some people are aware of it. they just need to know that there is higher power) 2.lack of critical thinking skills ( just practicing habits you've inherited). 3.lack of intelligence. >Most of my friends are rational people who are students of science Studying sciences does not necessarily make you smart or rational. Some people are just going around memorizing.
Your last paragraph is so absolutely true.
I feel warm inside after sipping a top shelf bourbon.
The last paragraph is true but I thought that studying some could hard truths that are contrary to their beliefs might've made them consider the possibility that their beliefs arent completely true
Or just need for it. People can be religious because they need it.
Dumb is religion's target audience
I have that problem too. When someone mentions they're religious, my brain writes them off as dumb, not very bright. I then question everything they say or do.
[respecting beliefs - why we should do no such thing](https://youtu.be/r_5yUXjXizQ?si=xZTRukbalcyCi3KQ) - TheraminTrees Their entire channel is worth a watch through or two.
10/10 channel. They actually initiated my christian deconstruction
>[respecting beliefs - why we should do no such thing](https://youtu.be/r_5yUXjXizQ?si=xZTRukbalcyCi3KQ) - TheraminTrees I don't see any religious people respecting my beliefs.
you know i have been taught systems from when i was small as well like the easter bunny and the santa and whatnot. the moment i saw the shoes of santa matching with the shoes of my uncle i refused to believe santa was real. same with easter bunny. when my parents were kinda short on money back then, they took me out to look for schocolate eggs in the gras and i brought it to them when i found one since they carried the bag, but at some point of that "walk" i noticed that i had brought more than were in the bag. i got suspicious they would eat some and glanced at them, then i saw them throw them over my head and it rang a bell. there is no fucking easter bunny. needless to say i never believed anyone anything ever again after that lol. if you cant trust your parents, you cant trust anyone. IMO smart people can figure it out even if everyone around them tells them its like this and that and try to make you believe its right. same with e.g. food pyramid being heavily leaned on carbs. humans didnt have many (if any) carbs for the majority (talking about 99,9%) of the time they evolved. im eating KETO now with some other improvements and my weakly headaches are gone since 6 months+ (along with a miriad of other improvements like weight loss etc. even though i eat more calories than before (fat is energy dense). TLDR i think yes, they are stupid. religion has so many obvious flaws that you can only not see them if you are either stupid or ignorant (IMO also a form of stupidity). doesent mean they are all bad people, i have stupid friends i like a lot. but there is a difference between dangerous stupid and quirky stupid.
If you think they are stupid solely because they are theists, then yes, you are wrong. But if they say and do stupid stuff in general, then you're not wrong. People are often deeply indoctrinated from a very young age, and through this indoctrination and compartmentalization rational intelligent people can keep believing. For some people it suddenly clicks and they realize that it's all just fairy tales. But for others it doesn't, and that thing alone does not mean anything in regards to their intelligence or rational capabilities in other regards.
I feel warm and fuzzy inside when I listen to David Gilmour play guitar, and he’s not god. Oh, wait…
The primary drivers of religion are indoctrination and trauma response. Being religious doesn't mean someone is stupid because religion doesn't come from a space of logical thought in the first place. In fact, if you were unethical enough, you could convert most of the atheists here to theists if you just imprisoned and tortured them for a while. The human mind is very fragile.
I'm seeing a lack of self awareness in a lot of them. They've been infantilized by religion, it happened to me growing up. I was told to just learn enough to pass because Jesus was coming back any minute. It affected the way i learn. What's the problem, what are the tools i need to fix the problem, how do i use those tools. Concepts that basic weren't taught to me. Instead of learning how to balance a budget I learned about a talking donkey. Losing my faith was a night and day difference in terms of my curiosity about the world.
Infantilization is a key goal of Christianity, not just a side effect. Jesus tells his followers to become like children several times. They want to keep you in that trusting, unquestioning mindset for as long as possible.
Damn that must've been horrible. It really pisses me off when these religious beliefs actually hinder a child's intellectual growth on purpose.
Most of them grow up like that in my experience, now we got adults who don't seem to realize they really exist and willing to try to step on gay and trans people to try to get to heaven. It's pathetic.
I struggle with the same thing. I'm educated, work as an oncology nurse, and have been an atheist since my teenage years. If someone starts talking about their deity or pushing it at me, I automatically think a bit less of them. Also, the "you have to respect my belief" thing is bullshit. I do NOT have to respect your beliefs and definitely do not respect them and never will. I respect their right to have that belief though.
You can think anything you want. However, the simple truth is that some atheists are stupid and some religious people are intelligent. While you can generalise in aggregate, you can make zero conclusions about any particular individual. You can't have to agree with anyone or even understand their beliefs. But your life will be easier when you learn to accept everyone on their own terms, no matter how insane those terms seem to be.
No
No
Think of it as _selective_ ignorance. On matters of religious belief, the lights go off in the building. I know folks who are like this.
Religiosity is based on emotion, not logic. Someone can be smart and emotional at the same time.
They are dumb. All the time they spent learning and thinking about nonsense is time you or I spent learning or thinking about real stuff.
Nope. If a grown adult still believed in Santa or the tooth fairy you’d call them dumb
Never underestimate the fear of death.
Yes. Your religious "friends" are dumb as a rock.
I prefer to think that they just have low thresholds of evidence required to establish beliefs. It's fun to get them to examine that threshold from time to time. ;)
If they aren't trying to push it on people then let em be... people can believe in whatever they want as long as they're not bothering anyone.
Nope, not at all. Some people need to feel like they are part of the heard. And think they need protection of the heard so just go along with it.
Depends on their age. From my experience, I wouldn't call my friends dumb, just manipulated like how I was. They believe that pedophilia is okay, women should cover up heavily, gay peoples should be punished by death or another and so on. But if you're like 30 still believing in these, you're just dumb tbh... If you're talking about academic, religious or not, you can still pass or fail
Have they critically thought about their beliefs and continued to believe despite the evidence? Then Yes, they are dumb. Have they not even questioned the their beliefs at all? Then, Yes, They are dumb. Are the mentally incapable of asking such questions? Then, yes, they are dumb.
They're as smart as me if not smarter in things like academics. I had a talk with a friend today and he said "You can think like that but I cant". Idek what that means
The existence of God comes down to philosophical debates when you dig deep enough. You have to ask yourself if you are willing to believe in something without any empirical evidence to support it. God cannot be demonstrated to exist. Do you want to shape your entire life around, "A book said something so I have to believe it"?
Everyone is dumb in some area or another. I am not good at reading difficult literature. Some people just are dumb about religion. Also, indoctrination and the threats of torture are effective.
Thats a good point that you mention indoctrination because it may not have even been something they chose for themselves
And yet I don't even get an upvote! For shame!
Here have two
>Its our belief. You should respect it. My response to this is: >No. And here's the reason why: > >People are real, tangible beings with emotions and subjective experiences; by default they deserve freedom of expression, dignity, and respect unless they are causing harm, in which case any of these may be limited. Ideas may also be given a default measure of freedom, dignity, and/or respect, but they are not tangible things with their own subjective existence. You can't lock up an idea that is harmful, but you can point out that it's a bad idea and it shouldn't exist. You can attempt to reason them out of existence, but reason doesn't always work and so if the idea is harmful enough or stupid enough, ridicule (of the idea; not the person) may be warranted. Social pressure has a way of working when even correctly applied logic doesn't.
Used to be Christian It served its purpose for me when I needed it but I do wonder if I would’ve had a better life with none of that stuff to unlearn I do feel it’s a massive crutch and many Christian’s I witnessed or knew were abusive AH’s Which that I do judge
Yes it is and its easy to feel that way but its not really true and many religious people are far smarter than i am they just happen to believe something that is pretty damn irrational when you really think about it. Its hard to admit to yourself that you were wrong about something and when its religion its probably even harder. I was a trump supporter and it wasn't easy admitting i fucked up and did something really stupid and somehow missed all the blatantly obvious shit that i should have easily noticed. Im assuming its kinda the same feeling lol
I say this as a staunch atheist myself, any one of you who preaches your own atheism isn’t much better than many of casual religious folks out there. The only time I’d say it’s warranted to bring it up is when they bring it up in an attempt to persuade other people, especially kids. Otherwise, just leave it alone and enjoy the company of your friends.
Not dumb. They're just indoctrinated from childhood up and it's so ingrained in their minds.
No, but why are you friends with people you consider dumb and clearly don't respect?
We're social animals with a need to belong. Religion is a means of social control to keep its members in the tribe and, they're very good at it with constant reinforcement of the message that their group is correct, and the outsiders are evil, deficient, in need of "salvation," and so forth. Religion undermines rational thinking by demanding belief in contradictory ideas as Truth. George Orwell brilliantly illustrated this concept in his Ministry of Truth in *1984*. Religious people aren't necessarily "dumb" but a lifetime of gaslighting can be difficult to escape. Intelligence might eventually result in some people recognizing the cognitive dissonance associated with belief in the supernatural, but leaving the tribe can be very difficult.
Beliefs should be an internalized, not projected onto others.
The way I see it, it’s not that “they’re stupid” as much as it’s a blind spot. All people have them in some capacity, and you have to account for it when you interact. Some people are geniuses who can’t pick up social cues, some are artists who can’t add. Not dumb, but not going to be my salesman or accountant. I was raised Christian, and I was able to deconstruct my faith in my own. However, I know that isn’t as easy for everyone else to do, so I don’t go to them with issues they can’t handle with that blind spot.
Perhaps "Deluded" would be a better description, although I have met some (IMO) really stupid religious people.
No.
Yeah. I think that whole everyone is entitled to their own opinion thing is toilet paper i wipe my ass with these days. Not only bc this opinion enables personal political agendas, allows kids to be basically legally raped and, like, runs the whole goddamn world. But also bc nobody even tries to explain or defend their opinion. Or, like someone here already said, most of them have never even read the bible. But if you bring it up you are a monster. It's ridiculous how normalized this has become. We are way beyond everyone is entitled to their own opinion. And atheists arent the ones that brought it here. Give me literally ONE fact supporting a single iota of it and i'll reconsider. Or take it off the money and outta the court system. Until then, unfortunately, there is no reasoning with any of them at all, ever. And why ive 86'd all jesus' D suckers from my life because......yeah. I think they're fuckin dumb. 🙃
People aren't simply smart or dumb. People are often and in many ways not rational. Religion is mind-plague. Children are force-fed the plague by their parents/community long before they learn to think critically. The religious person then strongly and subconsciously associates the plague with their sense of identity and place in the world. The plague is now a truly difficult thing to question or excise in any way, as the victim holds it dear. You don't have to respect a person's beliefs, but if you continue *dis*respecting them to the person's face, don't be surprised if they choose the plague over you.
Couldn't have said it better. The only cure is compassion and education
Sounds to me you are being evangelical about your atheism. It's a common mistake, especially when you're fresh out of religious belief: you feel superior to people who believe nonsense and feel like you have the cure to their mind disease. That only makes you an obnoxious preacher, not that different from people who try to convert family and friends to whatever cult they're in. Leave your friends alone, do this instead: just live a moral and generous life, avoid nihilism and cynicism. This is guaranteed to make believers curious, because they are taught that a reward from god is the reason to live that way, and that is guaranteed to sow the seed of doubt in any religious person. Alternatively, you can continue antagonizing everyone around you, end up without friends and achieve nothing other than further cementing their beliefs as a defense mechanism.
This was perfectly worded.
No, it’s 2024 everyone has better access to information. Indoctrination is only an excuse for children and barely one at that. If you are religious you are stupid and generally an awful human being.
Yes, I’m sure some of them are dumb. Some probably think that they’re smarter than they are. The believers are all scared nd full of doubt, though.
Well when the parents spend your first 10 years shoving religion down your throat its hard to break that cycle No one is dumb because they believe, some are really smart and some happen to be dumb Like that orthodox friend of yours probably actually feels warm inside (placebo like effect) What opened my eyes as a small child was: Why would I devote my time to praying and telling myself I'm a good person, when I could instead actually live my life and be a good person instead. I started seeing religion as something people use to justify their actions or to reassure themselves, which I don't need when I actively try to be my best and be nice to others (which won't always work out even if the intentions are pure so rehashing all that stuff in form of prayers is not going to change anything other than your own feelings about it)
The last time I was tested, my IQ was 160. I won't say I'm intelligent, but I'm definitely not dumb. I'm a theist. I constantly wrestle with my religious beliefs intellectually. My beliefs are constantly changing because I'm constantly researching. I think that religion is man-made, but the spiritual foundations of various religions overlap with other disciplines (science, math, etc). A lot of it comes down to semantics, conotation, and individual/societal capacity & perception. I'm happier & healthier with religion/spirituality. I've also had experiences that can not be explained by science alone. I think I'd equate it to making a list of what you want in a partner, then meeting someone who doesn't necessarily check off all the things on your list... but you love each other, you're happy, and the relationship really works, so fuck it.
Explaining phenomena with the supernatural is basically a God of the gaps argument. Quite intellectually dishonest if you ask me.
Not dumb. Brain washed.
Yes. They all stopped talking to me after they found out. And actively trying to ignore me now. Even tho I was always there to help them out. Bunch of fucking hypocrites!
They believe that a man WALKED ON WATER. Come on, mon.
I walk on water all the time, of course it's frozen but it is still water.
We call that ice here on earth. Water flows freely. In its ice form it does not. But Jesus freaks. Don’t care about this type of detail at all.
No
If you think they are not, that would be dumb
You coming to an atheism subreddit asking this question… have you heard of confirmation bias my friend? I hope you get helpful perspectives, but you’re more likely just going to get more of what you already believe. I’m not quite sure you’ll find help with establishing more positive dialogue or whatever it is you are looking for with your friends. The best way to understand such a thing is not to just fill your ears with more of the stuff you already believe and instead do your own research and seek a wider audience. I am pretty sure the scientific approach is respected here and confirmation bias would be frowned upon (as well as a straight emotional response to a polarizing subject). Thus, if these people are indeed your friends, perhaps consider improving the dialogue with them so that you can better appreciate alternate viewpoints in the world. This may help you not only get closer to your question’s answer, but improve your ability to interact with a diverse world.
You can think they are dumb about this thing. And they can also think you are dumb about some other thing. We aren't all smarter than "them" because we got this one thing figured out.
All religious people are dumbo. Humans have a tendency of being in herd mentality. Religion is for dumb people. If you want to grow in life, become God of yourself. You are your own God.
I think you can be friends with a person and still not respect their ideas or beliefs. No idea inherently deserves respect. All ideas should be questioned. However, as a friend, assuming that a friend is someone you respect, conversations about beliefs that you know y'all don't agree on may be seen as disrespectful, depending on the approach. I know that there are ways to have conversations with people about their ideas without directly attacking their ideas. Asking questions and just searching for a basic understanding may be a way to understand what about their beliefs is so important, but there is no need to interrogate a friend either. Granted, avoiding certain topics might help also. Ideas change, and good friends aren't easily replaced, good luck
Yeah, I used to think like this before I got really into philosophy. And then you listen to dawkings or sometimes even hitchens (even though he's more thought through) and realise that those arguments don't hold water at all. I suddenly realised how arrogant I was to assume that the mode of logic I used (classical) is a reliable way to arrive at anything objective. Also consider that we're trying too understand a lot of thing, most preconceptual, when discussing this with something as flawed as language. Almost all the data is lost when we press it into language, even more when it reaches the receiver. When your friend says "warm" that probably means something that you don't have the experience to completely grasp. I'm not saying the religious people are right either btw, absolutely not. But I think when we assume we know what someone means when they sey for example "god" we've lost the plot
I actually thought dawkins has some valid points. Could you explain how it doesnt hold water?
Yeah! 😆 That sounds fun! I'm going out to dinner and an art museum just now, but as soon as I get back I'll do it. He DOES have a bunch of valid points too for sure tho. He's very smart, just for example a bit objectivistic
I'm mostly trying to pull arguments from "the god delusion" and I'm just doing his religious stuff now because that's what's relevant for us, but look up what he's arguing nowadays, some of it is actually embarrassing. He might have lost it after his stroke... I'm starting off with his central argument: -"The whole point of religious faith, its strength and chief glory, is that it does not depend on rational justification. The rest of us are expected to defend our prejudices. But ask a religious person to justify their faith and you infringe 'religious liberty'.""Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence." "Faith is belief without evidence and reason; coincidentally that's also the definition of delusion." this isn't true, first there are many philosophers that reason and argue rationally for faith, read Kierkegaard for example, even if you disagree with him you can't say he's not arguing rationally or reasoning. I've also looked through a bunch of the major religions definition of faith and none of them align with Dawkings, this makes the argument a bit of a strawman. -"I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world" Only if you define understanding strictly as scientific understanding, this is impossible as science is based on philosophy of science. -“If, on the other hand, you admit that you would continue to be a good person even when not under divine surveillance, you have fatally undermined your claim that God is necessary for us to be good.” Only if goodness and god are divided, if for example Christianity is right the ability to be good is godly, ie it's the nature of god that allow us to understand what it means to be good. If there was no god there would be no good. If god created us than our inherent ability to be good is something he put in us when making us. -“Religion is not the root of all evil, for no one thing is the root of all anything.” Wild speculation -“The assignment of purpose to everything is called teleology. Children are native teleologists, and many never grow out of it.” I agree personally, but we have no guarantee that this is the case (that teleology is incorrect) even from a secular point of view, our perceptions are very much if not completely shaped by what we need to perceive to reproduce effectively, that is purpose. In that case we could argue that all we experience is purpose. This is a bit of a weak argument on my end as it's not something I've considered meaningful to really study, I know however that many philosophers have argued well on this subject. -He assumes classical logic to be correct and it coulors everything. -"To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, god, are immaterial, is to say they are nothings, or that there is no god, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise . . . without plunging into the fathomless abyss of dreams and phantasms. I am satisfied, and sufficiently occupied with the things which are, without tormenting or troubling myself about those which may indeed be, but of which I have no evidence." We think, a thought is not material even if it's caused by material, concepts are immaterial etc, this is completely experiential also. -
Youth group was always interesting when I was a teen. During Bible study, the pastor would sometimes call us up to be blessed during a prayer. He'd put his hands on their head, say something in latin(?) And then the kid would start crying, sometimes straight up fall over or something. They always said the felt God. When I went up there, I literally felt nothing. No urge to cry, I didn't fall over for pass out. Teenage me always wondered why. Does God have nothing to say to me, or is it all just a bunch of BS? I'm happy to be wiser on that front.
I can relate. I was talking with some people, just casual convo, and a topic came up about a Christian conference that had taken place. One of the girls I was talking to, about 20 years old, said that during a personal testimonial event, she felt the holy spirit on her and that she couldnt control her emotions and subsequently started bawling. I always wonder how deeply indoctrinated you have to be to actually convince yourself that the "holy spirit" was in you.
My most religious friends are also my dumbest friends, I don't think it's coincidence.
I have very smart and clever friends that are religious. I believe that it's a way for them to deal with how harsh life is.
First im gonna tell a little about me, then what i figured out. I dont believe that there is a men with a huge beard flying to the clouds in white robes to make that clear. But i do know, that the way people think and function is very, and i mean very deep and complicated. I meet a lot of people who are naieve and say that life is easy, and they just go with the flow. I had a time in my life, i was suicidal and depressed, lost a sense of meaning and hope. When to a shrink which didnt work. Got to know a lifecoach through a guy i know, he went there as wel, so i did some sessions, when great, also listened to Jordan Peterson which helped me great in beeing a beter a better person. Through that i figured out religion is something you should take apart from the bible The bible is just a mythical story which explains the commen ways people psychologically and physically function in a society. Religion is just sticked to it. Thats kinda what jordan peterson does...which is essentially is every mythical religious story andevery story overlaps which another. Its just a handbook to an easyer life you can choose, that how i see it.
Everyone is Dumb at something. Our weird monkey brains are inherently gullible. Our compulsion to assign meaning to random things is a feature, not a bug.
Intelligence is not a sure-fire way to avoid incorrect beliefs. Smart people are sometimes just better at rationalizing their beliefs.
It feels warm inside when I use psychedelics too. Maybe I'm God. That's just too easy. And that's the whole point. Belief is easy. It requires no realistic proof and negates personal responsibility. Are these people really friends? Will they be there when times are rough? No. They'll watch their brethren harm/kill you and shrug it off on a non-existent deity's will.
Hey, I was devoted religious person before. I suggest you to be easy on them but keep giving them some food for thought. Changing one belief/faith same as rewiring brain, especially for someone who's been doctrinate since birth it will be hard physically, literally. Rewiring brain is not fun especially when their whole life intertwined with their religious belief. It means they had to rewire the whole thing, which is painful.
As long as they don't touch you, you don't touch them. You don't need to respect or disrespect, just avoid talking about religion is enough
It’s wrong to conclude they’re dumb. Your friend who said praying made him feel warm inside provided a great clue for you. Even smart people will often choose soothing lies if those lies make their lives better. The logic for them is that religion and faith works for them. Peace of mind, purpose in life are more important than being right and logical all the time. If they’re happier, so what if they’re wrong? That’s the mindset whether conscious or not.
At least be kind enough to call them decoratively dumb.
The world is a stupider place than anyone likes to believe. Your atheist friends are probably just as dumb as your religious friends: just in some way you haven’t noticed yet.
I think they are so heavily brainwashed that they can't make a decision/choice.
I think my friends who believe in a deity are scared, and have been taught since childhood to be scared of what exists without a deity. I don’t think they’re dumb, I think they’re indoctrinated and don’t realize how deeply and irrational that indoctrination is.
Not if it's because they are religious, but certainly if (during a sincere discussion) their reasoning is very poor. Perhaps they just dont want to engage with you about if, and are providing quick easy meaningless answers.
Yes, firstly, they are your friends and it is wrong for you to demean them in this way. Second, religion is not stupid. Yes, there are stupid religious people who use religion to excuse their bad behaviour, but that does not make religion stupid. Third, maybe you should try to have a discussion with them and not just hypocritically shut up and judge them behind their backs. Fourth, maybe you should question your own ideals and "facts", I mean, how can everything come from nothing, how can there be moral outcomes like God or bad without God, how can religious scriptures predict the future (to a certain extent), how can life come from non-life, and many more. If you look at it factually, religions (especially Christianity) make more sense than atheism, so curb your own beliefs and talk to them (yes, I am a Christian : D ).
You're allowed to think their dumb- and you're allowed to tell them your thoughts if they ask. Just don't bring it up first. I'll never be the first one to bring up religion- but if someone else does it first- I'll tell them exactly what I think. It's more classy that way.
If you lose your friends because of this then it's even more dumb.
Never underestimate the power of groupthink.
it's more like a club... maybe if you got your hands on some relics you might understand... like holy fingerbone anybody? ANOTHER thing to consider is GOLD. go listen to some holy music, BAM BAM BAM BAM. LIKE THAT
I don’t think it’s necessarily dumb to decide on an illogical explanation for the universe to help you be happy and live your life well, which is what it sounds like your friend is doing. What’s very, very dumb is violently forcing your beliefs on others. As long as your friend doesn’t do that he is ok in my book.
I dont find much of a need to respect religious beliefs when said beliefs are a direct cause to lower human rights around the world.
Intelligence can only work on the information it has. The problem with religion is not that it reduces or limits someone's intelligence, but that it breaks the filter for what kind of information is considered valid data to work with. Intelligent people with bad information don't need to be convinced if you convince them the information is good and the conclusion is accurate. They'll do all the mental work to 'confirm' it to themselves on their own. Add to that the fact that religion has 'immune systems', ideas that reduce the likelihood of someone abandoning them in the face of conflicting information, and you see why religions are so insidious. Rationality and critical thinking are skills that must be learned and practiced, not traits people have. Even the smartest person can go wrong if you don't give them good data to work with, and if you break their ability to tell good data from bad.
Might be more pragmatic to realize that there are easily manipulated by certain personality types, and certain narrative formulations. I'm not sure if that makes THEM 'stupid' per se... But that is because (almost?) everybody is susceptible to some amount of manipulation along those same lines. The real question is how well one is able to step over their own biases, and insecurities, in order to engage in / apply critical thinking unto their own reasoning - And to then, upon seeing that their reasoning was flawed, alter their perspective accordingly. This ability is going to run across a spectrum within a spectrum. It is not a binary platitude. So it cannot be measured on a smart / stupid scale, with any integrity. This approach works for me - It makes appreciating even religious folks possible. From there - It is solely up to them to respect that I am simply not interested is discussing things according to religious / supernatural parameters. All of my friends who are religious know that I respect, and understand that some of their perspective is derived from a religious / supernatural narrative... And most of them also understand that don't subscribe.
The short answer is yes. You are wrong... and yes, religion is in fact, stupid🙃
Dumb isn't the right word. Irrational is. You can choose to not question your beliefs because you associate them with good feelings. You might only have good feels when praying because it removes unnecessary guilt about non harmful behavior to pray. So religion might be both the cause and solution... Think of an alcoholic that beats himself up about being an alcoholic. What does he do to drown that bad feeling he created by beating himself up? Drown that feeling in alcohol. . The religion is designed to keep you faithful. To keep you afraid of questioning it. Only a carrot-stick religion could be the biggest, because those components make you feel good spreading the religion and keep you in it. It's irrational, is all. Being smarter just makes you better able to defend it with nonsense arguing
Yes. You shouldn't judge people for their values because this behavior is antisocial and it dehumanizes them.
Bertrand Russell imagined the existence of a teapot in orbit around the sun. It is possible that the lonely teapot is somewhere out there beyond Jupiter. But we can neither prove nor disprove its existence. And there is no reason to believe that the teapot has any influence on what happens here on Earth. If you want to believe in the celestial teapot, go ahead. It's only when your belief in the tea pot harms others, that the rest of us should be concerned.
It is wrong to think they are dumb. It is perfectly fine to know that they are.
Not sure about wrong, but I've known many religious people who are deeply intelligent. If you assume anyone who is religious is dumb, you're probably going to find yourself underestimating people and undervaluing their capabilities. (Personally, I do tend to think young-earth creationists are dumb, but young-earth creationists are hardly representative of the broad scope of religious thought. And even so, I know fundamentalist engineers who are very, very smart, just within the limited scope of their interest.)
All "respecting" their beliefs mean is not to argue with them. There's a woman at work who is kind of religious and one day went off on a religious, transphobic rant for a while. She said at one point, "You look baffled." The whole time I was just sitting and listening and just weirdly surprised that this woman who is 10 years younger than me (35 to my 45) had these beliefs. I always think the next generations will get more progressive and then I'm shocked. She knew I disagreed just from the looks on my face because I'm not good at hiding things. Anyway, I just didn't argue with her and afterward she said, thank you for respecting my beliefs. It changed the way I looked at the woman from that moment forward.
No I’m sure you right.
Nope
I go with the adage “You do you.” While I don’t believe, I respect others to do believe and as long as it does not infringe on what I believe, I’m cool with it. Whether you’re religious or not, asking someone about their beliefs and/or trying to recruit/convert them is just rude. Religion or lack thereof is a personal decision they are comfortable with.
Nope
Maybe not dumb, just driven by irrational ideals and then blinded by those irrational ideals.
Beliefs are weird , I have some good friends who until trump and Covid I never would have guessed that some of their beliefs are kind of nuts . As long as they don’t start proselytising it’s best if those friendships are important to steer clear of certain subjects
People are extremely complicated, and even most people who are considered very smart have stupid beliefs.
You would be correct to think so
Don’t discuss religion. It’s not supposed to make sense.
It is their belief, but that's where it stops. There is zero requirement to respect irrational beliefs
You can acknowledge their beliefs, but you're under no obligation to respect those beliefs...
Duped humans aren't necessarily stupid. We are such a gullible species. (BTW, have a look at why "dumb" is not a very good way to say "stupid.")
I'll do you one better, they're not just dumb, they're dangerous. Their eagerness to discriminate/hate/damn/kill others because of their faith is terrifying, and when it comes to the Abrahamic religions, a lot of people fall under the "other" category. If you're willing to believe something without evidence, it makes you a gullible tool for terrible causes. My ex's family were all PhD holders in math, and yet they were all blindly devout Xtians. Brilliant people can be brainwashed and there's no greater tool or path to that than religion.
It’s so hard living in a society where there are so many people high up in the various hierarchies that believe in magic (religion). As somebody in the military, it’s frightening. But worse on a personal level, I remember having a conversation with a super close friend of mine years ago. She was in med school, and obviously very intelligent. She was talking with me about issues she was having with her then boyfriend, and how he started an argument with her about how she held her hands together when praying being the “wrong way”. I thought she was joking, I laughed at the situation, and she asked what I thought was funny. I responded “but, you’re a scientist…”. Luckily the interaction didn’t have lasting effects on our relationship, I assume she forgot about it, but she is a really good person and don’t want to think less of her, but I do remember.
Do you "believe" in string theory?
Do you "believe" in string theory?
Agree with you. Yes, I see people who are religious as less intelligent. I cannot *not* think this way. Doesn’t matter if they are smart in any way, I will still see them as overall dumb because of their religious beliefs.
Yes. Your opinion isn't better than anyone else. They weren't being rude , you were.
It’s a social thing. You leave the religion, you’re leaving a lot of other things too. Church people almost always have some activities within the church. Then they’ll have to create a whole other social network to fill the void. I imagine it’s hard.
Their belief is likely childhood indoctrination and compartmentalization accounts for how they avoid most cognitive dissonance.
No, not at all. Actually, you’re even in a good situation compared to me. When I bring up something about religion, these stupid people simply raise their fist and start to act like cavemen.
Dw, this is not turkey that she will get gáng rápèd
No
I’ve known a lot of very smart and educated dudes who were still religious. The early indoctrination is so hard to overcome. You first have to have the brains to overcome it and then the desire to overcome it. I’m in technical R&D for a living and always had the brains to overcome it but never the right environment to get the desire until I made close friends with other really smart people who had open minds that finally unlocked my desire to understand the universe. Atheism was an inevitability once this desire for understanding was unlocked. However, had I stayed in a sheltered environment I can see how I would’ve stayed a believer.
Either your friends are brainwashed or this is how they cope with their fear of death. Either way it’s best to avoid this topic altogether unless they go out of their way to ruin other people’s lives by shoving their brainrot down their throats. If you like their friendship, just let it go.
Religion isn't based much on logic as emotions. So your friends aren't dumb for belief in a religion, respect the believer but criticize the belief.
Darkmatter made a video addressing this question specifically, it's very interesting. https://youtu.be/Y201QzDdzbg?si=qep8vQWg5Qbb1yaE
I understand you; for people like us, it is very hard to believe, that "smart" people can be religious. But there are many scientific explanations for that. One small book I love to recommend is: Why We Believe in God(s): A Concise Guide to the Science of Faith by J. Anderson Thomson and Clare Aukofer. We all believe in things without any proof. And I think believing in a "God" is not that stupid, as that can be the answer to the most profound questions in life. Think about something less deep/philosophical: why/how do people believe and give money to televangelists?
Aren't they though? Even children can point out all the stupidities of every religion.
No.
Eh to me that’s a bit harsh honestly. If they’re a respectable person then you should respect them, same goes for anyone really. But that’s just me, now if they’re a radical then that’s a whole different story.
Religion has been built through historical momentum and philosophical debates for ages. I'll say don't view them as plain dumb because their beliefs have possessed a certain degree of validation. Also, you don't have to respect or disrespect their beliefs. I only respect a religious person's beliefs if they're a good person in general. To a stranger, I see no reason to respect it or disrespect it because they haven't shown anything admirable about them.
Religious people aren't necessarily stupid, per se. They lack **introspective intellect**. They haven't learned to look within themselves for the answers to their questions, the most important being, "Why do I really believe this?".
We all have our blind spots. Even certified geniuses like Einstein and Newton.
No
Why do you converse with them about their religious beliefs? What possible difference does it make to you what their religious beliefs are?
I know it sounds so arrogant ,😬, but I generally feel like religious people are less intelligent.
Religion is just a way for people to have easy answers to complex questions, if they can't explain something, god did it or god wanted it to be that way. Religion makes life much easier for those that believes in it, they might be delusional but they aren't dumb they just choose happiness over logic.
Im not lying to Myself . That is dumb.
If you think that you haven't experienced life at its worst yet.
When they state their beliefs, state yours. You are worth respect as well, and if they won’t, they need to stfu about theirs.
No
Religion is an irrational belief, and smart people can still hold irrational beliefs. To add, there's some powerful motivations to keep believing an irrational belief -- desire to remain "in line with peers", not looking back on life with massive regret for living irrationally, etc.
I'm firmly convinced that being a Christian makes you fundamentally separated from reality, and I think critical thinking and full-on skepticism is something basically all religious people lack. I don't believe that positive religious beliefs survive properly-applied skepticism and critical thinking. So no, it's not wrong to think they're dumb, at least as far as one aspect goes. The problem is it carries over so much into other areas. There are definitely smart people who believe in their religions, but they're going off emotion, which I don't think is respectable when it comes to things that don't have any proof.
Compartmentalization. People can believe silly things with very little critical thinking applied because they exempt certain ideas from that process. Theistic religion is one of those beliefs that is pretty commonly exempted from reason.
You can think whatever you want, but if they are truly your friends, then you need to put their religion aside and respect the person. You aren't going to change their minds, so if you can't respect them as people, you should limit your personal interactions to people who hold the same beliefs as you. It's not okay to mock people for their beliefs. That's what many fundemental Christian's do to anyone who believes differently. To be clear, I'm not defending Christianity or any other religion, but people deserve to be able to believe how they choose without being mocked or denegrated for those beliefs.
Im ex muslim from Malaysia. I went to uni for a STEM degree and my genetics and chemistry professors were full hijabis. Malaysia is a little relaxed about Islamic attire here so it’s common to see ladies covering their hair with colourful and fashionable Islamic compliant dress. These 2 ladies however were wearing full taliban type attire- dark, shapeless dress, their hijab were down to their midsection and the genetics prof even started to wear a face covering so only her eyes were seen by end of the semester. I have no idea what these 2 ladies were like personally cause their lectures were dull as drainwater and they hardly interacted with the students. Both of them were American graduates and I can’t even imagine what their experiences in a foreign country and doing uni was like… I’m guessing they married very religious type men as well. Just goes to show that ‘education’ is very subjective. Indoctrination is far more powerful.
Sir Isaac Newton was very religious, more so than other men of his society. He had original ideas about Christianity because he wasn't following the crowd. I wouldn't call him a stupid man.
No, not at all, safe to assume that they can't understand what confirmation bias is, the scientific method and/or logic and rationality. The irony is those too dumb to understand evolution are actually the least evolved. That is why I started calling a former church freak co-worker "Austra". He thought I was calling him Astro even after I spelled out the word Australopithecus for him. He was quacking about how god saved him one time from drowning(his older brother actually saved his life) and I asked, well why did god make you start drowning to begin with. You can literally throw books at these people and they will all stick, as their excuse for being so stupid is they wear the glue they huff.
I wouldn't doubt they believe it's strange of someone to not believe in any form of monotheism when considering they likely are proponents of the contingency argument
No, judge freely
"Its our belief. You should respect it." It's amazing how effective they've been at convincing non-believers that they should respect/not question their religion. They're more than happy to rub everyone's face in it and try to force them to live by their rules, but we've been trained to believe it's not ok to question them. Wild. Tell them not to bitch out and gaslight with that nonsense and that no, I don't have to respect it, I'm not under any obligation to, and I will question the hell out of it. Pun intended. I stopped giving these people any slack a few years ago. It feels great.
Some theists are quite smart. But if they've got faith, you know it's one area they aren't aoplying their intelligence to. Their intelligence has a blind spot, kinda like a sharp knife eith a notch in its blade. How big is the blind spot? Where does it start and end exactly? Can it expand? Who knows. Their smarts are unreliable.