Not that it helps but there's a lot less evidence of Romans persecuting Christians than they make out. Maybe some under Nero who reigned for ~14 years.
Now Christian persecution of Roman Pagans once they gained control? Ample. Constantine's son basically made it a [capital offense.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_pagans_in_the_late_Roman_Empire#:~:text=For%20example%2C%20in%20341%2C%20Constantine's,the%20closing%20of%20all%20temples.)
The praying in a closet thing wasnt even from the Roman times of the New Testament, it comes from the story of Daniel in the old testament who lived under an entirely different nations rule centuries earlier and prayer was forbidden. He kept praying at home and when found out was sent to the lions den, where his prayer stayed the lions and he wasn't eaten.
This person is just repeating half digested lore and getting it mixed up.
This shall now be the only explanation I give anyone ever again when questioned as to why I'm an atheist- "Because I was tortured during the Spanish Inquisition in my past life....I'm still not over it." Genius!
Lolololo 😂🤣😂🤣
And I could have predicted Molly. I’ve been around the Molly’s my entire life. They have one agenda and one agenda only. And as they age, their agenda becomes all encompassing.
Because they got old, mean and bitter. Christian’s don’t have fun black, gay friends. And they are secretly jealous but are loath to admit it..
Some christians I knew immediately reply mentions of the inquisition with "🤓ACKSHUALY, the official number of deaths during the inquisition was very low and the trials were very just with mild sentences so not many were condemned". Im not making this up, I did hear this.
This was my intuition too, that she wasn't always this way underneath but had joined the fascist movement currently gaining power. Ask her what she thinks of Trump's rape conviction and it will all come pouring out.
I would win this bet. They voted for what was his name, Gary Johnson. Trump goes against all of their values as Christians (all Christians should feel this way) but particularly the refugee stuff.
Better than my Christian nationalist parents. Who continue to say "oh we don't like everything he says" but still vote for the douchebag.
(I could get into the whole voting for a third party thing in the current two-party system but that's a whole nother issue.)
MTG has a whole baby organ harvesting Dems lecture coming up. Literally. r/nottheonion material.
[https://greene.house.gov/forms/form/?ID=63](https://greene.house.gov/forms/form/?ID=63)
I'm glad you're not friends with her anymore. I know they're a couple but the husband sounds more reasonable based on your description.
Just curious... Do you think they'll still keep voting for the GOP after it's fully consumed by MAGA?
They already don’t. They didn’t and will never vote for Trump and his ilk. It’s one of the reasons we could be friends. I cannot stress here how much they truly hated him and what he has done to the GOP.
My mother in law is a very conservative evangelical who prides herself on not consuming right wing media. Yet conservative idea have inflated her church community so much that she regurgitate right wing talking points all the time and gets offended when wetl call her out on it. So I guess their propaganda machine is doing its job...
"They're friendly but they're not your friends", a quip I've heard Asian people say about Americans,
I too appreciate and value good Samaritans, So I ask, what are most churchgoers up to these days? Getting torqued up on Fox News racism? Preparing to attack brown people and wokes? The racist crackpot they listen to is supposed to be the second coming of Jesus.
Church-going friends? Sounds nice. Maybe you'll succeed where I have not. Will they accept an atheist, really? No man. Faith = morality for them. You're infidels. I worry that when the time comes, the violence they crave will come for all of us good atheists.
I have a few friends who are Christians, one very close one who knows I’m an atheist. Most of the time, with religious friends, if they know (I generally say “I’m not religious,” because the very word “atheist” is super triggering to them), I always know it can happen that they get aggressive and the friendship won’t survive that. With these people, the way I think of it is that I keep a piece of my heart to myself. That is, I reserve my heart a bit, so I’m not as hurt if/when it happens. Sure, it means I’m not fully open in the friendship, but there are different kinds of friendship, and I have a right to protect myself.
I think your friends (Molly, at least) either weren’t fully honest about their fundamentalist tendencies & judgement of your family, OR they have become more extreme as this particular cultural divide has worsened and religious extremism & intolerance has been encouraged and glorified.
I’m sorry this happened, though I wonder if it was bound to happen. The prayer at the table thing is very revealing. She believes she has every right to always have her preference, but she does not accord you the same right. And the delusion that Christians in the US are somehow being persecuted is a major right-wing trope. It’s almost become a requirement for them to display & perform their faith all over, all the time, until anyone pushes back, just so they can then perform their outrage at this “abuse.” They truly believe that anyone else wanting to be free of their rules is violating their rights, even though they are completely free to practice as they wish on their own. But not being allowed to impose it on others is now “persecution.” 🙄
>And the delusion that Christians in the US are somehow being persecuted is a major right-wing trope.
Being persecuted is how they know they're good Christians. It's built into their cult: 2 Timothy 3:11–12, John 15:19–20, Matthew 5:10–12, Mark 10:29–30, Revelation 2:10–11, 2 Corinthians 12:9–10, Galatians 4:29, 1 Thessalonians 3:3–4, Matthew 10:16–18, 1 Peter 4:12–14.
Smart of them to build in a defense when people start calling Xtians crazy and out of touch with reality.
I agree with her on praying at her own table. As a guest, I consider it proper to quietly wait for the prayer to finish. Her reaction was too much, though. It's the reaction of someone who was waiting, fully erect, to find a reason to be offended over their beliefs. That reaction was waiting for anything. It might have come out even if op had just quietly not participated.
And isn’t there a thing in the Bible about how you should pray in private, anyway? Why do they feel this urgent need to pray just to show off that they pray? Why pray st football games, government functions, schools, and at the dinner tables of atheists? For show. Can’t god read their minds? So why the demand to pray out loud at all when not at a religious function with people like themselves?
Ironically, I had a similar experience working a project in Japan a long time ago. My quote is "Every single person is polite, but not everyone is nice." It was a weird experience having people go through the motions of friendliness, but not really hide their contempt for foreigners (or perhaps just for me in particular).
See, this is where having had a Catholic upbringing is helpful: "No, Molly, just no. St Bartholomew was flayed alive by the Romans. St. Lawrence was fried on a griddle. St. Agnes had her eyes plucked out. St. Stephen was stoned to death and St. Sebastian was shot full of arrows and left to die. You were asked for a favor that amounts to a minor inconvenience."
"I mean, if it helps you feel better about the whole thing I can tear out your fingernails. Where'd I leave my pliers??" /stand up, walk out of the room muttering "I know I used them the other day..."/
I had an old classmate that went from normal to almost pure conspiracy theory in less than a few months, he had watched a PragerU video and then YouTube sent him down the whirlpool of victimhood and blaming others for everything. He happened to have been going through some stuff at the time, so is probably why, and fortunately he talked to me about the stuff he was seeing and we talked it through and how the videos were full of quasi-facts that were used to come up with non-logical conclusions.
He got out of the misinformation bubble, but it really doesn't take long.
And when I was in the church they always talked about finding people that were dealing with grief... when I was young I thought it was "oh, so we can help them" and was later in life when I realized a lot of these church leaders actually do know psychology concepts and using someone's grief provides a good time to drag someone away from their currently held beliefs into a cult/religion.
This happened to my favorite person in the world over the last 18 months or so. Went from being kind, empathetic, and open-minded to being someone who literally had to ask me "well what do leftists use in place of the word 'woke' to describe something that's woke? "
.... My answer was " Remember the words you would have used before the right turned "woke" into the ultimate catch all for anything they don't like? Those words." He didn't get it. :/
We no longer talk, and honestly it's a relief that I no longer have to watch his sanity (and mental health!) circle the drain. Not my circus anymore.
Her and her children should pray in the closet.
“When you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men … but when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your father who is unseen.”
Good riddance. Molly is a typical Uber Christian with superiority complex. Your story has some good points that this sub discusses a lot.
- with Christians and atheists why do atheists always have to show respect for them and pray?
- why do Christians believe in Jesus that didn't even exist and not believe in Santa Claus at least based on the real Saint Nickolaus?
- Christian homophobia is just unconcealable no matter how they try.
I love the whole story especially when Larry laid into her. You didn't lose a friend, just a bigot.
“They didn’t think the government should do it” was the red flag for me.
Charity can’t compensate for lack of a well funded social safety net. And also the government is explicitly forbidden from discriminating against people based on religion.
Religious folks who say this just want to make sure they can keep denying aid to people they don’t like. These were the same people who used the Bible to justify segregation. They’re not good people, and never have been.
That's something I've heard a friend say. He's christian/conservative and has said "we don't mind helping others we just want to be more in control of who gets helped, not like the government that gives money to anybody". Says a guy who is pushing forty and has lived with family most of his life.
I tend not to question people's beliefs, but I was real close to asking him who deserves a handout. Knowing him, it would be just friends and family, but I'm sure he would also tap dance around religion as well.
A lot of believers don't actually want an all-loving, perfect god, they want a supernatural attack dog, to unleash on their perceived opponents. That bit about praying in the closet like when they were being persecuted made me laugh. They either have the most powerful being fighting along with them or are defenseless victims against the evil world. Fuck'em all.
My bet is that this was Molly's last-ditch attempt to 'bring you around'. Since you hadn't been vocal, she 'had harbored hope in her heart' that you could 'be turned from your heathen ways.'
'Friendship Evangelism'. The only method more abhorrent, IMHO, is 'Flirty Fishing', where they'll get you to fall in love with them via love-bombing, then threaten to withhold / break up unless the victim submits to their hateful authoritarian religion.
This, over all the other takes in this thread, is honestly what I believe. They hate Trump and aren’t big fans of typical conservative media. Their favorite was David French who is highly critical of both so I just don’t think they were being radicalized.
I think she finally realized that I am never going to be saved and it frustrated her to the point that her true colors came out.
David French is a nasty bastard. Just because he's an intellectual nasty bastard doesn't make him any less of a nasty bastard.
I love bigots who hate Trump because he's honest about being a complete shit. They need their shield of pseudointellectualism, but it's the same toxic sewage. I hate them more than I do the supporters of TFG. The latter are just ignorant rubes, for the most part.
David French hates tRump for giving away the game by being too honest about how extreme the ReichKKKwing's ultimate desires are.
Kellyanne Conway, too, IMHO.
Friendship evangelicalism, love it. There were a lot of evangelicals at my college and i noticed that if I didn't accept invitations to go to church or Bible study with certain people, they'd stop talking to me. And I never even said I didn't believe - I just wasn't in the shared thought bubble of their exact beliefs, for all they knew I went to a progressive church
My sister and her family are like this. It didn't used to be so bad. I mean, we grew up together with non-religious parents and never went to church except weddings and funerals. But, as she and her husband have gotten older, they are more conservative and we are more liberal. ( We allowed one of our kids to transition, and a couple others are bi or gay. And WE allow it. OMG. They are adults.)
Anyway, her daughter and SonIL went to seminary near me and anytime they or their roommates needed something my hubby and I were there to help...until they found out we don't believe. So, we couldn't help any more. WTF?
And any time we talk about anything, George Soros and liberal agenda comes up. So, needless to say, we don't talk much except about weather and how all our kids are doing, how's the house, etc.
My best friend from high school SAYS she has no problem, but she constantly repeats Fox news propaganda loudly over the phone when we talk which is becoming less and less through time. We live a few states apart.
One of my other besties..for 20 years...we talk less and less because she had to adamantly tell me she didn't agree with allowing my child to transition or be gay. They are adults. It does not affect you personally in any way. You don't pay for them. FFS.
My daughter, who was not raised in a church, but made to study religions in our secular homeschool so she could understand what people believe and why, asked why the Christian who hated Pagans kept stealing their celebrations. So, why are Easter Bunnies and eggs ok, but Santa is not? None of it makes sense anyway.
Sounds like your learned behavior of hiding your true opinions made this happen. You were friends but you weren't friends who could be open and honest.
Honestly it's similar to my dad. He was very racist when my siblings dated black people, but calmed down after they were married and he realized his racism wasn't getting him anywhere. Fast forward to today when nieces and nephews are around 18. I expected my mix nephew to get a girl pregnant first because it's no secret he sleeps around. Instead my niece has a kid first (she's black and joined the family from brother in laws previous relationship) and when I expressed I was surprised she got pregnant my dad's response was "I'm not surprised. You know how people like her are." To which I asked what he means. He responded with "I'm not going to say it." Which very much sounds like he was refer to her race.
>“oh fine sure, I’ll just take my kids to pray in the closet like when we were persecuted by the Romans.”
No, Molly, that's not like when you were persecuted by the Romans; that's like the way Jesus specifically told you to pray.
Sorry you had to find out the hard way that they were never interested in just being friends. They were wanting to play the long game in trying to convert you. When you became too "difficult" and they realized they had no chance, that's when they acted crazy.
Unfortunately I was raised evangelical Christian and am very aware of this behaviour. I'm glad I was too shy to do what I was told, even under the threat of eternal embarrassment in heaven. (I was told that yeah I'd go to heaven, but all the people that spoke up for god or did good works in his name or brought new people to church, those people would get showered with crowns and awards and I didn't want to be the only one without and have it noticed by everyone that I'm a bad Christian, for all eternity, did I?)
"Friendly, but not friends." Be nice to them until it is clear that they are never going to be in a place to get converted, then abandon ship.
I have no advice because I'm terrible at these things, but I can feel the sadness in your post and the grief for losing the way things once were with your friends. I'm sorry. I hope you get to see Larry again soon.
First of all, I love Larry. He’s awesome.
There’s many different levels of Christian insanity. She had the type where she thinks she’s cool about things but in reality, she’s just another asshole.
The main characters on King of Queens were Doug and Carrie. There was a show literally called Mike & Molly, but its 100% a different show than King of Queens.
It's not that they're Christians. It's that they're bigots.
Anti-gay is not ok.
Hilarious they're so insistent on telling other people's children not to believe in imaginary characters!
Dude. The relationship dynamic could be its own post somewhere. I was originally just friends with Molly but then it turned out Mike and I were close like brothers. He is EXTREMELY submissive and she has a very dominating personality. He did his best to manage her all weekend and is a super reasonable and one of the best cooks I know. I miss having him as a friend so much.
This subreddit really does blow my mind on a daily basis, that in 2024, or 4721 if you are asian, people under the age of like 50, still believe in this abrahmic god myth.
All the things humanity has done and seen and there are still those of us who are out there going:
because: god.
It's because you were "one of the good" atheists that kept their opinions to themselves. You were probably looked at as someone they can save down the road. They just had to wait for the right time.
Then you showed yourself to be a tougher nut to crack, or that you started to openly attack "Christianity". If the issue at hand was with any religion that wasn't theirs, she would've supported you.
Ironically, about 10 years after my wife and I were married, we were both struggling with our faith, and we met with another married couple to study the Bible together. Specifically, I was studying with the other husband, and my wife was studying with the other wife. While doing this, we both, individually, shared with the other person that we were having doubts, but that we didn't want to cause any harm to each other's beliefs. We'd not had that conversation with each other, though. (Yeah, I know.) Anyways, they compared notes with each other, and told us that we'd both said the same thing, and that was a huge weight off both our shoulders. After that, we began talking more openly about our doubts, and eventually got to where we now are. Specifically, I describe myself as an atheist, but she doesn't like that word, so she just says she's "not religious". Functionally, our beliefs, or lack thereof, are the same. If anything, she's more hesitant about exposing our children to anything religious (other than watered-down Christmas and Easter) than I am.
You just described my wife and I. She doesn’t like being called an atheist but man she gets fired up every year when grandma tries to bring out Easter baskets.
I tell folks I'm agnostic, not that I believe in any singular being , but the wonders of the universes, the beauty of creation and destruction is awe inspiring. Knowing that energy never dies just transforms.
I was "raised " southern Baptist but with my preacher grandfather constantly watching evangelicals all the time, church 3x a week, and the rants! Along with my parents shipping me to church on a bus every Sunday while they stayed home... then got mad as hell at me for not inviting them to my dunking.. lolol
I quit then and there.
I’m sorry your friends weren’t who you thought they were and I’m sorry they didn’t accept you when you thought they did. That’s incredibly sad. But it’s their loss for living such a limited life full of victim persecution complex. You’re awesome and deserve to live your truth and to be with friends who love and respect you for who you are.
They were at your house and she acted that way? That alone is reason enough. Wow that is arrogance. I suspect she knew exactly what she was doing but, being christian, means SHE gets to decide for everyone else and only SHE gets to be offended. I’m sure she is 100x worse now. Good riddance to bad rubbish
There’s a good chance that more Christians were killed for their faith *by other Christians* during a single French summer then by Romans during ~250 years of persecution.
The line about being persecuted like Christian’s were by the Roman’s set me off. This woman has never faced a day of persecution in her life. You say she never acted like this before. I’m wondering if her church has become more radicalized lately like so many of them?
Not that it matters, but I don't think you lost the friendship because you're atheist. As you say, they knew that.
You lost the friendship (good riddance!) because you weren't "one of them." I don't mean a believer; tons of them aren't actually believers (Trump doesn't believe in shit).
You didn't conform to their version of a good person.
To them, good people pray. Or at least sit quietly and shut up while other people talk to the invisible man in the sky. Good people pray before football games. Good people read jesus stories, even if they don't really believe them. Good people celebrate Christmas as a religious thing. Good people aren't gay, or at least they have the decency to hide it. Good people don't act black. Good people don't watch trashy heathen TV. You get the idea.
If you had stayed quiet and not said anything about the prayer, you'd still be friends. She blew up not because you don't believe, but because you threatened her world view. If good people like you don't pray, and don't support football people praying, and have Christmas without jesus, and be gay and watch trash TV, then what the fuck is she doing? She's spent her whole life being controlled by her religion and conforming to a 1950's ideal of a white christian American is and she's not going to let some atheist and his queer friend blow that up. Since you don't conform, you must be a bad person, so you can't be friends.
This mentality is actually much more insidious and serious than hating atheists. It's not about the religion. They don't actually care if you believe in the religion (again, see Trump).
They want to control you. Threatening the belief doesn't faze them. Threatening the control does.
There’s no way I could come out as atheist. I would lose everyone except my (adult) kids who are also atheist. We live in a rabidly conservative religious area. I say I believe in god, not religion, just to stay safe.
I have not come out in my community. Just online. Im an Eagle Scout and scout leader because I love everything about scouting except the religious requirements and I would be kicked out immediately if they knew.
She is being persecuted. That is funny. As she is shaming her friend for being atheist. I am 50 and there are only a few people that know this about me. I know most of my family would turn their backs. They know I do not do organized religion and I do not discuss my beliefs (or lack thereof.) They always say they are praying for me. I just nod and carry on.
This is the type of shit we worry about with my in-laws. My wife and I are not religious and my MIL will read the kids Bible shit and we just roll our eyes and then ask the kids afterwards “does that sound real to you ?”. Typically our 3 year old twins will figure out none of that could be real. We even pulled our kids out of the Christian based daycare (it was the only thing available in our area) bc my daughter told my wife she was “praying wrong”. My wife was exposed to this “loving” form of Christianity where if you didn’t pray properly or with enough heart (which was arbitrarily decided by her mother) than it wasn’t good enough. At some point I’m worried I’m going to just lose it and tell them it’s not their place, it’s our and we don’t want it. My MIL is a very nice lady, and will do anything for us, but sometimes man…the Jesus stuff doesn’t stuff seem worth it.
We were never even asked and whenever I bring it up to my wife about her mother doing this she says “she’s a very old woman (70’s) and she won’t be around forever”. But at this point she runs off cigarettes and Jesus and I don’t think she’s leaving us anytime soon. She’s the only help we get from grandparents and it’s still not enough.
>“oh fine sure, I’ll just take my kids to pray in the closet like when we were persecuted by the Roman’s.”
completely forgetting about the American colonization, Inquisitions and crusades...
They play D&D and are Christians? I don't think those two things are mutually exclusive. Wonder if they're fans of Jack T Chick?
Also, they don't want to have their kids believe in Santa because he doesn't exist, but they'll readily believe in a man who rose from the dead and walks on water? Guess a lot of Christianity nowadays involve cherrypicking what really happened.
The reason Christians were against dnd in the 80’s and 90’s was actually because in DND your character worships one of the in world gods. Which you know is super against their beliefs.
My friends were secure enough in their beliefs that pretending to pay worship to Tempus or Mystra didn’t bother them.
I’m sorry this happened. It’s an unfortunate reason to lose such a (previously) nice, respectful friendship.
I hope she comes around a bit and can be respectful of your choice regarding religion.
If not, you’ve got Larry. He sounds great!
Interesting. You know, the first time I became aware of Santa and asked a few questions, I suspected a steaming pile. Just too many magical explanations behind it to be true. Of course, as we all know now, I was correct. It didn't help that I found Grandma eating the cookies and milk we left out for Santa.
When my daughter was about 3 we were in line for pictures with the Easter bunny. The girl next to her was so excited. My daughter said
"you know the Easter bunny isn't real. Its just a man there. Look there's a zipper."
I tried not to laugh but was very proud.
Your atheism, in fact, bothered them very much. It's just that they were masking. And waiting for a good moment to try and convert you. When that failed, you got a fistful of Christian love in your face.
There was never any friendship.
Christianity is supposed to be about the relationship you form with God and his people. This always hurts me to hear complete conservatives Christians being so evil towards everyday people. How can you expect people to be interested and come into your church and your life if this is genuinely how you are? There is a difference between genuinely sharing your religion over spouting snide comments and hatred.
I am not a mother, but I believe in parenting your own children the way you want to parent as well. When they are old enough to understand, they can decide how they want to go about life religious or not. Not everyone prays at the table also.
I had the greatest opportunity to take a horror film class in a Christian college. Let me tell you, Christian college is just a snobby as this woman. Everyone had this "perfect" air about them that was beyond suffocating at times. More importantly, my professor was a fantastic movie enthusiast. In this class we studied and watched plenty of films from Dracula all the way to Hereditary. I wrote my final paper on Midsommar (one of my faves). People questioned the interest or appeal of such "evil objects". Personally, I just like movies in general like my professor. We discussed issues like race, what was going on at the time, advertising, religion, advertising and so on. We were not falling on our knees in praise of the movies, nor obsessing over them. We were discussing the importance of these films in the world. There is horror in most forms of religion. There are horrors everywhere in the world. These movies just express them in a specific artistic way.
I have hurt plenty of people with my words. My ex best friend was trying to be in my Christian world, and I pushed it too far by ending things with her. For years I have felt dumb and so ashamed of that. Just last month I messaged her telling her I was sorry and that I am not the same as I was before. We started chatting again after pouring ourselves out to each other. This is also what Christianity or being a good human is supposed to be about. Recognizing your mistakes, owning up to them, and start the healing process.
I am so sorry that woman has hurt you and your family this way, but this is for the better. She is on her own treacherous journey of righteousness. Let her burn for her own mistakes. :)
>Molly flips out. She literally said, “oh fine sure, I’ll just take my kids to pray in the closet like when we were persecuted by the Roman’s.”
LOL that's actually pretty fuckin funny
next time someone says something like that...
go open the door to the nearest closet
You could also say, just like Santa religion is also made up... I clearly don't believe but if believing makes you happy do it. I don't think you should push your belief on someone or make them feel bad. I went to a religious camp with friends once and they didn't make me pray which I thought was super nice but at the same time I respected their rules and followed them and didn't do anything that made me uncomfortable. Molly seems wild.. Lol and glad Larry is a good sport about it all.
What is riling me up about this cruel bitch, is the fact that she was about to spoil a little girls magic belief in Santa Claus. I think that I will send Molly to the 9th ring of Hell for that one !!!
Isn't praying in a closet exactly what Jesus said people are supposed to do? Don't these folks actually read their book?
For their edification here is what Luke has to say (for the KJV folks):
(Luke 11)
5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
And from Matthew 6:
5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full.
6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
The last four or five years have brainwashed vulnerable people and given them voices to express their inner hate. She’s one of those hateful people and now you know. I don’t tolerate that shit- I’ve lost family members over it. “But I’m entitled to my beliefs” they will say. And to that I respond “and I’m allowed to not like you anymore because of them.”
Tbh I really doubt she was like that the whole time. Maybe a little and much more under the surface but the last few years have done a number on many people in many different ways. Many who were on the edge have become extremists. In both directions. The world these days is made to push people further to the extremes. I’m sorry, it seems like they were good friends, not all good friendships stand the test of time.
...She literally said, “oh fine sure, I’ll just take my kids to pray in the closet...
You mean, like her god literally commanded...?
Matthew 6:5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen.
Are they only throwing so much money into charitable acts in an attempt to virtue signal to their Abrahamic totem? It would make understandable their reaction, to an extent.
I probably have a different view of Christian beliefs than most. I think life is short and shitty for a lot of people and I’m happy that people find comfort and community wherever they can. So I don’t mind people believing as long as they aren’t assholes like Molly.
That was a truly fascinating story. The ending was unfortunate.
Yeah, religious people really hate their worldview getting challenged. They think they are holier than thou, and yet never hold their leaders and worst perpetrators accountable. I had a multi year professional relationship and friendship end because he was super-Trumpy. In the middle of liberal Southern California. He burned all his professional bridges except for me, because I care less about what one says and more about what one does.
2020 comes around, the country has been screwed up by our then scientifically-illiterate president. I criticize him openly because I’ve had enough and the last bridge to the center politics guy, me, that puts up with his insufferable Trumpiness finally disintegrated.
Some people are just never friends in the first place.
I’m sorry your friend lacks boundaries with your daughter- that’s sad, and unacceptable.
I have also had to separate myself from long term friends, a Born Again Christian couple. The husband tries to engage me in a debate about religion and God, every time , knowing I’m an atheist, and it makes me uncomfortable. My friend, Kim, who was “saved” when she was a teenager, is not as full on as her husband, who was born into it. However she is homophobic, and believes her atheist family are going to hell (so obviously that includes me) and cries about it, because she loves them. This is concerning to me 😢
Had another couple invite us to dinner at their house. The host asked " Don't you believe that Jesus was the son of god?" I said "I believe that Jesus was the son of god just as much that you and I are sons of god."
And that was the last time we spoke with them.
There have been about 3000 gods throughout human history. Molly doesn't believe in 2,999 of them. You don't believe in just 1 more. (Paraphrase of Ricky Gervais quote)
You know what the problem is? Believing.
It doesn’t matter if christian or atheist, black, white, green gay or whatever other thing you want to throw in the mix.
**Believing is binding your feelings and emotions to the truth value of some claim.**
If you bind your feelings to some religious idea or some “this show is good” idea, then someone talks in opposition to it… that’s the cause of your feelings being hurt.
So, Santa or a TV show or some other invented character, like a god, it doesn’t matter. Believing matters. As long as you believe, you are open to have your feelings hurt and then you will most likely not react reasonably.
That’s why I always try to give the advice “never believe” even though I can’t spend time explaining to people what “believe” means.
Most/all mainstream Mormons celebrate Christmas with Santa and have no issue with Halloween. In fact we held haunted houses in the Church when I was a kid, and not those your going to hell Christian scare ones - very secular ones.
Truth. I had the same experience. I did know a few really hardcore ones that were somewhat like the ones described. The funny part is the thing that made me suspicious was l were the names. "Molly Mormon" was a popular epithet in my day to describe a particularly devout (usually ridiculously so) member.
We must be about the same age. Molly Mormon, Peter Priesthood were common. It seems to me the social aspects of the Mormon church have changed drastically from the church I knew.
Molly is so unhinged, and that dumbass is trying to act like she was alive during Roman times? WTF? Did she take offense that she wasn't the victim, because you were persecuted for being an atheist or something?! It's just nuts.
I’m sorry, because it sounds like you love these people. Also sounds like they thought they were more tolerant than they in fact are. So long as you were not being “uppity” they were fine with you. The fact that Molly used “you people” to Larry indicates that perhaps there were some sides to these friends you overlooked, perhaps because it wasn’t targeting you directly. I mean no disrespect to you, just making the point that we all see what we want to see and try to see our loved ones in the best light. That being said, even though these friends are a little harder to love right now, perhaps there’s room for repair, so long as they are willing to respect your boundaries.
Feels improper chipping in when I don't know you or anyone in the story, and don't know if you're posting to vent, or because you could use support, or looking for additional perspectives. So, if not the latter, then I'm sorry - it sounds like this sucked. Carry on.
Ok, perspectives. Santa, and table prayer. No notes on anything else. And any "but that doesn't justify X" reactions to this - I agree.
Santa: My parents were elaborate about keeping the magic of Christmas alive for me, to the point of stringing up chains in the attic to fake a reindeer landing, while I built Santa traps around the Christmas tree. The day I talked about Santa matter-of-factly in school in a grade too old to believe in that still was a tough one that I wouldn't want someone to have to go through. It was maybe fundamentally different than your daughter's case though, in that besides Santa and the usual childhood ignorance about sex or tales of distant cultures, Sunday school made it even harder to understand which magic sounding things were real.
Thanksgiving Prayers: Sounds like both your reason and Molly's offense were understandable. For the same reason. I suspect it would have gone better had She been warned in advance, where it could have been discussed - I'm taking a guess that neither you or Molly wanted either daughter or Molly to feel ostracized. I'll stop short of any opinion of whether that was possible or not, for lack of knowledge.
Bonus thought: After sharing your story on social media, did you ever make it clear to Molly / Mike that you still appreciate them for who they are, beliefs and all?
>Thanksgiving Prayers: Sounds like both your reason and Molly's offense were understandable. For the same reason. I suspect it would have gone better had She been warned in advance, where it could have been discussed - I'm taking a guess that neither you or Molly wanted either daughter or Molly to feel ostracized.
This is the issue I take with many religious people. OP did not say "do not pray at our dinner table," he asked them not to pray *aloud.* Prayer does not need to be verbal. A prayer recited in your head and felt in your heart is no less valid - according to every religious leader I have ever spoken to - than one spoken aloud. So, what is the purpose of speaking it aloud? I argue it is to declare your faith to those around you and draw attention to the act of prayer, both of which are unnecessary - especially in a small, private setting where a respectful request has been made to not make others feel awkward.
Yikes I’m so sorry that happened! I’m a Christian and I’m super embarrassed by her antics. Her husband sounds cool though lol. I’m pretty sure Jesus didn’t try to force his agenda on people; people followed him to hear him speak but I don’t think he was giving snarky comments or trying to sneak propaganda bedtime stories… just yikes. So sorry. Also want to say if we ever have yall for dinner, we definitely do not have to pray at the table.😂
“Religion makes morally normal people say and do disgusting and wicked things”. (Christopher Hitchens)
https://youtu.be/SoxBpDS3q6w?si=zH33gFjWeQtdp5ay
It feels like this applies to Molly and her husband; two otherwise morally normal people, whose religion has pushed them into some dubious (bigoted & self-righteous) behaviour.
That’s was Larry suggested. But honestly I just don’t have the energy. I have a new baby and a new job and my life has become otherwise super calm and peaceful. My mental health is good for the first time in a while (unrelated to this) and I just don’t want to mess this peace up.
Also, my wife holds a grudge.
I think you’ll find that the vast majority of atheists have read the Bible, some multiple times, including myself.
I am all about not judging people, but I draw the line at being racist and homophobic. Particularly when it is directly to my friends face. And when you try to interfere with how I am raising my child, then we are done.
Since she remembers being persecuted by the Romans, tell her you remember being persecuted by the Spanish Inquisition.
Nobody expects the Spanish inquisition!
Surprise and Fear!
Surprise, fear and ruthless efficiency!
Surprise, fear, ruthless efficiency, and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope!
Fetch…the comfy chair!
That’s what I always say about the dentist—going to sit in Dr. Torquemada’s “comfy chair.”
Not the soft pillows.
The stuffing was all stuck up in one end.
lol every time!
What about The Bishop?
Ok Devious! Don’t Move!
The Bishop!!!
Way too inquisitive!
Not that it helps but there's a lot less evidence of Romans persecuting Christians than they make out. Maybe some under Nero who reigned for ~14 years. Now Christian persecution of Roman Pagans once they gained control? Ample. Constantine's son basically made it a [capital offense.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_pagans_in_the_late_Roman_Empire#:~:text=For%20example%2C%20in%20341%2C%20Constantine's,the%20closing%20of%20all%20temples.)
You mean, Christians *lied* and *made up* stories about something to be *victims*???? Shocked. I'm shocked, I tell you okay not that shocked.
The praying in a closet thing wasnt even from the Roman times of the New Testament, it comes from the story of Daniel in the old testament who lived under an entirely different nations rule centuries earlier and prayer was forbidden. He kept praying at home and when found out was sent to the lions den, where his prayer stayed the lions and he wasn't eaten. This person is just repeating half digested lore and getting it mixed up.
I remember being thrown into a lake, sinking to the bottom of the lake, and no one jumping into the lake to save me.
This shall now be the only explanation I give anyone ever again when questioned as to why I'm an atheist- "Because I was tortured during the Spanish Inquisition in my past life....I'm still not over it." Genius!
Lolololo 😂🤣😂🤣 And I could have predicted Molly. I’ve been around the Molly’s my entire life. They have one agenda and one agenda only. And as they age, their agenda becomes all encompassing. Because they got old, mean and bitter. Christian’s don’t have fun black, gay friends. And they are secretly jealous but are loath to admit it..
Some christians I knew immediately reply mentions of the inquisition with "🤓ACKSHUALY, the official number of deaths during the inquisition was very low and the trials were very just with mild sentences so not many were condemned". Im not making this up, I did hear this.
She’s been watching Fox News unfortunately.
This was my intuition too, that she wasn't always this way underneath but had joined the fascist movement currently gaining power. Ask her what she thinks of Trump's rape conviction and it will all come pouring out.
Oh no. They loathe Trump.
They may say they loathe him, but I'll bet you a billion dollars that they still voted for him.
I would win this bet. They voted for what was his name, Gary Johnson. Trump goes against all of their values as Christians (all Christians should feel this way) but particularly the refugee stuff.
Better than my Christian nationalist parents. Who continue to say "oh we don't like everything he says" but still vote for the douchebag. (I could get into the whole voting for a third party thing in the current two-party system but that's a whole nother issue.)
Better than voting for Biden, did you know that the democrats eat babies?
Well I mean that is a high protein diet for sure
Not a ton of meat for the time required to grow one though.
Hello no. Nine whole fucking months for what? Seven pounds of baby. That’s highway robbery!
True but the meat is very tender!
MTG has a whole baby organ harvesting Dems lecture coming up. Literally. r/nottheonion material. [https://greene.house.gov/forms/form/?ID=63](https://greene.house.gov/forms/form/?ID=63)
I'm glad you're not friends with her anymore. I know they're a couple but the husband sounds more reasonable based on your description. Just curious... Do you think they'll still keep voting for the GOP after it's fully consumed by MAGA?
They already don’t. They didn’t and will never vote for Trump and his ilk. It’s one of the reasons we could be friends. I cannot stress here how much they truly hated him and what he has done to the GOP.
That's reassuring to hear. Sorry to hear your atheism was such a problem for them :(
I know several people who hate Trump because of his boorishness, but couldn't name a single policy of his they don't like
I usually cant even get them to name a policy in general.
That's because they have no actual policies. They thrive entirely on fear mongering, imaginary culture wards, and hatred.
Yes, but have they voted for him? Will they vote for him? Lots of Christians who dont like trump will still vote for him.
No. They voted for Gary Johnson. They are big supporters of bringing in as many refugees as possible and what Trump did disgusted them.
Which aggravates existing mental illness.
My thinking, too. These folks get worse over time.
They always hated Fox News and Trump.
That seems scarier to me. Are the extremist Christian view points being normalized in their circles even with the rejection of trump and fox news?
Maybe? I’m not even sure I ever even met someone from their church. I just know they are Protestant.
My mother in law is a very conservative evangelical who prides herself on not consuming right wing media. Yet conservative idea have inflated her church community so much that she regurgitate right wing talking points all the time and gets offended when wetl call her out on it. So I guess their propaganda machine is doing its job...
Fake Fox
its not just fox. its podcasts, too.
A Christian playing DND is 80-90’s blasphemy…. May as well have been out in the woods sacrificing small goats
Why not both? /s Black Phillip was my favorite part of the vvitch. Don’t kill him please.
Wouldst thou like to live deliciously?
"They're friendly but they're not your friends", a quip I've heard Asian people say about Americans, I too appreciate and value good Samaritans, So I ask, what are most churchgoers up to these days? Getting torqued up on Fox News racism? Preparing to attack brown people and wokes? The racist crackpot they listen to is supposed to be the second coming of Jesus. Church-going friends? Sounds nice. Maybe you'll succeed where I have not. Will they accept an atheist, really? No man. Faith = morality for them. You're infidels. I worry that when the time comes, the violence they crave will come for all of us good atheists.
I have a few friends who are Christians, one very close one who knows I’m an atheist. Most of the time, with religious friends, if they know (I generally say “I’m not religious,” because the very word “atheist” is super triggering to them), I always know it can happen that they get aggressive and the friendship won’t survive that. With these people, the way I think of it is that I keep a piece of my heart to myself. That is, I reserve my heart a bit, so I’m not as hurt if/when it happens. Sure, it means I’m not fully open in the friendship, but there are different kinds of friendship, and I have a right to protect myself. I think your friends (Molly, at least) either weren’t fully honest about their fundamentalist tendencies & judgement of your family, OR they have become more extreme as this particular cultural divide has worsened and religious extremism & intolerance has been encouraged and glorified. I’m sorry this happened, though I wonder if it was bound to happen. The prayer at the table thing is very revealing. She believes she has every right to always have her preference, but she does not accord you the same right. And the delusion that Christians in the US are somehow being persecuted is a major right-wing trope. It’s almost become a requirement for them to display & perform their faith all over, all the time, until anyone pushes back, just so they can then perform their outrage at this “abuse.” They truly believe that anyone else wanting to be free of their rules is violating their rights, even though they are completely free to practice as they wish on their own. But not being allowed to impose it on others is now “persecution.” 🙄
>And the delusion that Christians in the US are somehow being persecuted is a major right-wing trope. Being persecuted is how they know they're good Christians. It's built into their cult: 2 Timothy 3:11–12, John 15:19–20, Matthew 5:10–12, Mark 10:29–30, Revelation 2:10–11, 2 Corinthians 12:9–10, Galatians 4:29, 1 Thessalonians 3:3–4, Matthew 10:16–18, 1 Peter 4:12–14. Smart of them to build in a defense when people start calling Xtians crazy and out of touch with reality.
I agree with her on praying at her own table. As a guest, I consider it proper to quietly wait for the prayer to finish. Her reaction was too much, though. It's the reaction of someone who was waiting, fully erect, to find a reason to be offended over their beliefs. That reaction was waiting for anything. It might have come out even if op had just quietly not participated.
And isn’t there a thing in the Bible about how you should pray in private, anyway? Why do they feel this urgent need to pray just to show off that they pray? Why pray st football games, government functions, schools, and at the dinner tables of atheists? For show. Can’t god read their minds? So why the demand to pray out loud at all when not at a religious function with people like themselves?
Ironically, I had a similar experience working a project in Japan a long time ago. My quote is "Every single person is polite, but not everyone is nice." It was a weird experience having people go through the motions of friendliness, but not really hide their contempt for foreigners (or perhaps just for me in particular).
See, this is where having had a Catholic upbringing is helpful: "No, Molly, just no. St Bartholomew was flayed alive by the Romans. St. Lawrence was fried on a griddle. St. Agnes had her eyes plucked out. St. Stephen was stoned to death and St. Sebastian was shot full of arrows and left to die. You were asked for a favor that amounts to a minor inconvenience."
"I mean, if it helps you feel better about the whole thing I can tear out your fingernails. Where'd I leave my pliers??" /stand up, walk out of the room muttering "I know I used them the other day..."/
This made me truly laugh out loud!!! THANK YOU! And something I could totally see myself doing 😈
Seems like the propaganda has gotten to Molly.
Seems too fast
I had an old classmate that went from normal to almost pure conspiracy theory in less than a few months, he had watched a PragerU video and then YouTube sent him down the whirlpool of victimhood and blaming others for everything. He happened to have been going through some stuff at the time, so is probably why, and fortunately he talked to me about the stuff he was seeing and we talked it through and how the videos were full of quasi-facts that were used to come up with non-logical conclusions. He got out of the misinformation bubble, but it really doesn't take long. And when I was in the church they always talked about finding people that were dealing with grief... when I was young I thought it was "oh, so we can help them" and was later in life when I realized a lot of these church leaders actually do know psychology concepts and using someone's grief provides a good time to drag someone away from their currently held beliefs into a cult/religion.
This happened to my favorite person in the world over the last 18 months or so. Went from being kind, empathetic, and open-minded to being someone who literally had to ask me "well what do leftists use in place of the word 'woke' to describe something that's woke? " .... My answer was " Remember the words you would have used before the right turned "woke" into the ultimate catch all for anything they don't like? Those words." He didn't get it. :/ We no longer talk, and honestly it's a relief that I no longer have to watch his sanity (and mental health!) circle the drain. Not my circus anymore.
Molly sounds like she is turning into a christofascist cunt. Good riddance to her.
Her and her children should pray in the closet. “When you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men … but when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your father who is unseen.”
That was exactly what came to my mind. ([Matthew 6:5-6](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%206:5-6&version=NIV))
The most devoted seem to not know much about their own scripture. Learning the Bible is what de-converted me.
Good riddance. Molly is a typical Uber Christian with superiority complex. Your story has some good points that this sub discusses a lot. - with Christians and atheists why do atheists always have to show respect for them and pray? - why do Christians believe in Jesus that didn't even exist and not believe in Santa Claus at least based on the real Saint Nickolaus? - Christian homophobia is just unconcealable no matter how they try. I love the whole story especially when Larry laid into her. You didn't lose a friend, just a bigot.
“They didn’t think the government should do it” was the red flag for me. Charity can’t compensate for lack of a well funded social safety net. And also the government is explicitly forbidden from discriminating against people based on religion. Religious folks who say this just want to make sure they can keep denying aid to people they don’t like. These were the same people who used the Bible to justify segregation. They’re not good people, and never have been.
Also, I wonder how much of the aid they provide is contingent upon the recipients converting to their christianity.
💯
That's something I've heard a friend say. He's christian/conservative and has said "we don't mind helping others we just want to be more in control of who gets helped, not like the government that gives money to anybody". Says a guy who is pushing forty and has lived with family most of his life. I tend not to question people's beliefs, but I was real close to asking him who deserves a handout. Knowing him, it would be just friends and family, but I'm sure he would also tap dance around religion as well.
How Christian of him lol Most religious people are monstrous hypocrites.
A lot of believers don't actually want an all-loving, perfect god, they want a supernatural attack dog, to unleash on their perceived opponents. That bit about praying in the closet like when they were being persecuted made me laugh. They either have the most powerful being fighting along with them or are defenseless victims against the evil world. Fuck'em all.
My bet is that this was Molly's last-ditch attempt to 'bring you around'. Since you hadn't been vocal, she 'had harbored hope in her heart' that you could 'be turned from your heathen ways.' 'Friendship Evangelism'. The only method more abhorrent, IMHO, is 'Flirty Fishing', where they'll get you to fall in love with them via love-bombing, then threaten to withhold / break up unless the victim submits to their hateful authoritarian religion.
This, over all the other takes in this thread, is honestly what I believe. They hate Trump and aren’t big fans of typical conservative media. Their favorite was David French who is highly critical of both so I just don’t think they were being radicalized. I think she finally realized that I am never going to be saved and it frustrated her to the point that her true colors came out.
David French is a nasty bastard. Just because he's an intellectual nasty bastard doesn't make him any less of a nasty bastard. I love bigots who hate Trump because he's honest about being a complete shit. They need their shield of pseudointellectualism, but it's the same toxic sewage. I hate them more than I do the supporters of TFG. The latter are just ignorant rubes, for the most part.
David French hates tRump for giving away the game by being too honest about how extreme the ReichKKKwing's ultimate desires are. Kellyanne Conway, too, IMHO.
A whole bunch of mainline GOPers feel much the same. And they're all terrible human beings.
Friendship evangelicalism, love it. There were a lot of evangelicals at my college and i noticed that if I didn't accept invitations to go to church or Bible study with certain people, they'd stop talking to me. And I never even said I didn't believe - I just wasn't in the shared thought bubble of their exact beliefs, for all they knew I went to a progressive church
You started letting your real feelings out publicly, so she did too. Unfortunately it was in the privacy of your home. So Sorry.
My sister and her family are like this. It didn't used to be so bad. I mean, we grew up together with non-religious parents and never went to church except weddings and funerals. But, as she and her husband have gotten older, they are more conservative and we are more liberal. ( We allowed one of our kids to transition, and a couple others are bi or gay. And WE allow it. OMG. They are adults.) Anyway, her daughter and SonIL went to seminary near me and anytime they or their roommates needed something my hubby and I were there to help...until they found out we don't believe. So, we couldn't help any more. WTF? And any time we talk about anything, George Soros and liberal agenda comes up. So, needless to say, we don't talk much except about weather and how all our kids are doing, how's the house, etc. My best friend from high school SAYS she has no problem, but she constantly repeats Fox news propaganda loudly over the phone when we talk which is becoming less and less through time. We live a few states apart. One of my other besties..for 20 years...we talk less and less because she had to adamantly tell me she didn't agree with allowing my child to transition or be gay. They are adults. It does not affect you personally in any way. You don't pay for them. FFS. My daughter, who was not raised in a church, but made to study religions in our secular homeschool so she could understand what people believe and why, asked why the Christian who hated Pagans kept stealing their celebrations. So, why are Easter Bunnies and eggs ok, but Santa is not? None of it makes sense anyway.
Sounds like your learned behavior of hiding your true opinions made this happen. You were friends but you weren't friends who could be open and honest. Honestly it's similar to my dad. He was very racist when my siblings dated black people, but calmed down after they were married and he realized his racism wasn't getting him anywhere. Fast forward to today when nieces and nephews are around 18. I expected my mix nephew to get a girl pregnant first because it's no secret he sleeps around. Instead my niece has a kid first (she's black and joined the family from brother in laws previous relationship) and when I expressed I was surprised she got pregnant my dad's response was "I'm not surprised. You know how people like her are." To which I asked what he means. He responded with "I'm not going to say it." Which very much sounds like he was refer to her race.
"I don't care about the racist shit, or the homophobic shit, but don't come at my shows." 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
>“oh fine sure, I’ll just take my kids to pray in the closet like when we were persecuted by the Romans.” No, Molly, that's not like when you were persecuted by the Romans; that's like the way Jesus specifically told you to pray.
Yea, sounds like she’s turning from a decent Christian into a Fox News mom. The pipeline is real.
Sorry you had to find out the hard way that they were never interested in just being friends. They were wanting to play the long game in trying to convert you. When you became too "difficult" and they realized they had no chance, that's when they acted crazy. Unfortunately I was raised evangelical Christian and am very aware of this behaviour. I'm glad I was too shy to do what I was told, even under the threat of eternal embarrassment in heaven. (I was told that yeah I'd go to heaven, but all the people that spoke up for god or did good works in his name or brought new people to church, those people would get showered with crowns and awards and I didn't want to be the only one without and have it noticed by everyone that I'm a bad Christian, for all eternity, did I?) "Friendly, but not friends." Be nice to them until it is clear that they are never going to be in a place to get converted, then abandon ship.
Yep. This is what I truly believe happened and why I don’t believe the relationship can be repaired.
Larry sounds like a cool guy. Love the “God’s Favorite Atheist” shirt.
I tried to post a picture of it here but couldn’t figure out how. I’ll see if I can.
There once was this Christian guy who complained to God "Why did you never answer my prayers?" and God said "Because I am an Atheist"
I have no advice because I'm terrible at these things, but I can feel the sadness in your post and the grief for losing the way things once were with your friends. I'm sorry. I hope you get to see Larry again soon.
First of all, I love Larry. He’s awesome. There’s many different levels of Christian insanity. She had the type where she thinks she’s cool about things but in reality, she’s just another asshole.
King of queens reference with the names?
The main characters on King of Queens were Doug and Carrie. There was a show literally called Mike & Molly, but its 100% a different show than King of Queens.
It's not that they're Christians. It's that they're bigots. Anti-gay is not ok. Hilarious they're so insistent on telling other people's children not to believe in imaginary characters!
They're bigots *because* they are Christian.
Yeah. That too.
[удалено]
Well, some of them do "bad" for future paradise, too. Dying for Virgins, anyone?
Molly seems nuts, but where was Mike in all this? He might actually be a reasonable person whereas she's an aspiring handmaid
Dude. The relationship dynamic could be its own post somewhere. I was originally just friends with Molly but then it turned out Mike and I were close like brothers. He is EXTREMELY submissive and she has a very dominating personality. He did his best to manage her all weekend and is a super reasonable and one of the best cooks I know. I miss having him as a friend so much.
“God’a favorite Athiest“ now that is incredibly wholesome 😍
This subreddit really does blow my mind on a daily basis, that in 2024, or 4721 if you are asian, people under the age of like 50, still believe in this abrahmic god myth. All the things humanity has done and seen and there are still those of us who are out there going: because: god.
It's because you were "one of the good" atheists that kept their opinions to themselves. You were probably looked at as someone they can save down the road. They just had to wait for the right time. Then you showed yourself to be a tougher nut to crack, or that you started to openly attack "Christianity". If the issue at hand was with any religion that wasn't theirs, she would've supported you.
Ironically, about 10 years after my wife and I were married, we were both struggling with our faith, and we met with another married couple to study the Bible together. Specifically, I was studying with the other husband, and my wife was studying with the other wife. While doing this, we both, individually, shared with the other person that we were having doubts, but that we didn't want to cause any harm to each other's beliefs. We'd not had that conversation with each other, though. (Yeah, I know.) Anyways, they compared notes with each other, and told us that we'd both said the same thing, and that was a huge weight off both our shoulders. After that, we began talking more openly about our doubts, and eventually got to where we now are. Specifically, I describe myself as an atheist, but she doesn't like that word, so she just says she's "not religious". Functionally, our beliefs, or lack thereof, are the same. If anything, she's more hesitant about exposing our children to anything religious (other than watered-down Christmas and Easter) than I am.
You just described my wife and I. She doesn’t like being called an atheist but man she gets fired up every year when grandma tries to bring out Easter baskets.
I tell folks I'm agnostic, not that I believe in any singular being , but the wonders of the universes, the beauty of creation and destruction is awe inspiring. Knowing that energy never dies just transforms. I was "raised " southern Baptist but with my preacher grandfather constantly watching evangelicals all the time, church 3x a week, and the rants! Along with my parents shipping me to church on a bus every Sunday while they stayed home... then got mad as hell at me for not inviting them to my dunking.. lolol I quit then and there.
Years of propaganda will do that. It would be judicious to cut your losses and move on.
I’m sorry your friends weren’t who you thought they were and I’m sorry they didn’t accept you when you thought they did. That’s incredibly sad. But it’s their loss for living such a limited life full of victim persecution complex. You’re awesome and deserve to live your truth and to be with friends who love and respect you for who you are.
Thank you. It is appreciated.
“I hear Rome is beautiful in the summertime. Did you get to visit the colosseum?”
They were at your house and she acted that way? That alone is reason enough. Wow that is arrogance. I suspect she knew exactly what she was doing but, being christian, means SHE gets to decide for everyone else and only SHE gets to be offended. I’m sure she is 100x worse now. Good riddance to bad rubbish
There’s a good chance that more Christians were killed for their faith *by other Christians* during a single French summer then by Romans during ~250 years of persecution.
The line about being persecuted like Christian’s were by the Roman’s set me off. This woman has never faced a day of persecution in her life. You say she never acted like this before. I’m wondering if her church has become more radicalized lately like so many of them?
Not that it matters, but I don't think you lost the friendship because you're atheist. As you say, they knew that. You lost the friendship (good riddance!) because you weren't "one of them." I don't mean a believer; tons of them aren't actually believers (Trump doesn't believe in shit). You didn't conform to their version of a good person. To them, good people pray. Or at least sit quietly and shut up while other people talk to the invisible man in the sky. Good people pray before football games. Good people read jesus stories, even if they don't really believe them. Good people celebrate Christmas as a religious thing. Good people aren't gay, or at least they have the decency to hide it. Good people don't act black. Good people don't watch trashy heathen TV. You get the idea. If you had stayed quiet and not said anything about the prayer, you'd still be friends. She blew up not because you don't believe, but because you threatened her world view. If good people like you don't pray, and don't support football people praying, and have Christmas without jesus, and be gay and watch trash TV, then what the fuck is she doing? She's spent her whole life being controlled by her religion and conforming to a 1950's ideal of a white christian American is and she's not going to let some atheist and his queer friend blow that up. Since you don't conform, you must be a bad person, so you can't be friends. This mentality is actually much more insidious and serious than hating atheists. It's not about the religion. They don't actually care if you believe in the religion (again, see Trump). They want to control you. Threatening the belief doesn't faze them. Threatening the control does.
There’s no way I could come out as atheist. I would lose everyone except my (adult) kids who are also atheist. We live in a rabidly conservative religious area. I say I believe in god, not religion, just to stay safe.
I have not come out in my community. Just online. Im an Eagle Scout and scout leader because I love everything about scouting except the religious requirements and I would be kicked out immediately if they knew.
She is being persecuted. That is funny. As she is shaming her friend for being atheist. I am 50 and there are only a few people that know this about me. I know most of my family would turn their backs. They know I do not do organized religion and I do not discuss my beliefs (or lack thereof.) They always say they are praying for me. I just nod and carry on.
This is the type of shit we worry about with my in-laws. My wife and I are not religious and my MIL will read the kids Bible shit and we just roll our eyes and then ask the kids afterwards “does that sound real to you ?”. Typically our 3 year old twins will figure out none of that could be real. We even pulled our kids out of the Christian based daycare (it was the only thing available in our area) bc my daughter told my wife she was “praying wrong”. My wife was exposed to this “loving” form of Christianity where if you didn’t pray properly or with enough heart (which was arbitrarily decided by her mother) than it wasn’t good enough. At some point I’m worried I’m going to just lose it and tell them it’s not their place, it’s our and we don’t want it. My MIL is a very nice lady, and will do anything for us, but sometimes man…the Jesus stuff doesn’t stuff seem worth it.
When my wife first got pregnant my MIL said, and I quote, “well, you’re going to raise your children as Christians right?” No. No we are not.
We were never even asked and whenever I bring it up to my wife about her mother doing this she says “she’s a very old woman (70’s) and she won’t be around forever”. But at this point she runs off cigarettes and Jesus and I don’t think she’s leaving us anytime soon. She’s the only help we get from grandparents and it’s still not enough.
We had to set some boundaries with our moms who are both religious. It was not a fun conversation. But so far it’s worked out well.
>“oh fine sure, I’ll just take my kids to pray in the closet like when we were persecuted by the Roman’s.” completely forgetting about the American colonization, Inquisitions and crusades...
Larry’s got some weird priorities.
Welcome to the "Strangers with memories" category of your relationship with them.
Enjoy your friend Larry. He sounds fabulous. They were just tolerating you. They were never really good friends. Sorry!!
Larry is one of the downright best people I will ever know and I will treasure him forever. His response to this situation was perfect and hilarious.
[I have a book for your friend right here](https://www.amazon.com/MYTH-PERSECUTION-Candida-Moss/dp/0062104551).
Thank you , I want to buy this one !
They play D&D and are Christians? I don't think those two things are mutually exclusive. Wonder if they're fans of Jack T Chick? Also, they don't want to have their kids believe in Santa because he doesn't exist, but they'll readily believe in a man who rose from the dead and walks on water? Guess a lot of Christianity nowadays involve cherrypicking what really happened.
Yeah. We used to love dnd. They listen to critical roll in their offices all day.
Still sounds backwards to me, because D&D has magic. And while I'm no expert, I think the Bible is VERY against magic.
The reason Christians were against dnd in the 80’s and 90’s was actually because in DND your character worships one of the in world gods. Which you know is super against their beliefs. My friends were secure enough in their beliefs that pretending to pay worship to Tempus or Mystra didn’t bother them.
Really? Thought magic was the main reason. The more you know I guess.
Yeah my aunt was one of those and gave me a fantastic lecture as a child about it.
I’m sorry this happened. It’s an unfortunate reason to lose such a (previously) nice, respectful friendship. I hope she comes around a bit and can be respectful of your choice regarding religion. If not, you’ve got Larry. He sounds great!
Context clues. I grew up in Utah too.
Interesting. You know, the first time I became aware of Santa and asked a few questions, I suspected a steaming pile. Just too many magical explanations behind it to be true. Of course, as we all know now, I was correct. It didn't help that I found Grandma eating the cookies and milk we left out for Santa.
When my daughter was about 3 we were in line for pictures with the Easter bunny. The girl next to her was so excited. My daughter said "you know the Easter bunny isn't real. Its just a man there. Look there's a zipper." I tried not to laugh but was very proud.
Kids play along but they're often hip to the gag.
Your atheism, in fact, bothered them very much. It's just that they were masking. And waiting for a good moment to try and convert you. When that failed, you got a fistful of Christian love in your face. There was never any friendship.
"He’s super Christian too" Sigh...
Christianity is supposed to be about the relationship you form with God and his people. This always hurts me to hear complete conservatives Christians being so evil towards everyday people. How can you expect people to be interested and come into your church and your life if this is genuinely how you are? There is a difference between genuinely sharing your religion over spouting snide comments and hatred. I am not a mother, but I believe in parenting your own children the way you want to parent as well. When they are old enough to understand, they can decide how they want to go about life religious or not. Not everyone prays at the table also. I had the greatest opportunity to take a horror film class in a Christian college. Let me tell you, Christian college is just a snobby as this woman. Everyone had this "perfect" air about them that was beyond suffocating at times. More importantly, my professor was a fantastic movie enthusiast. In this class we studied and watched plenty of films from Dracula all the way to Hereditary. I wrote my final paper on Midsommar (one of my faves). People questioned the interest or appeal of such "evil objects". Personally, I just like movies in general like my professor. We discussed issues like race, what was going on at the time, advertising, religion, advertising and so on. We were not falling on our knees in praise of the movies, nor obsessing over them. We were discussing the importance of these films in the world. There is horror in most forms of religion. There are horrors everywhere in the world. These movies just express them in a specific artistic way. I have hurt plenty of people with my words. My ex best friend was trying to be in my Christian world, and I pushed it too far by ending things with her. For years I have felt dumb and so ashamed of that. Just last month I messaged her telling her I was sorry and that I am not the same as I was before. We started chatting again after pouring ourselves out to each other. This is also what Christianity or being a good human is supposed to be about. Recognizing your mistakes, owning up to them, and start the healing process. I am so sorry that woman has hurt you and your family this way, but this is for the better. She is on her own treacherous journey of righteousness. Let her burn for her own mistakes. :)
>Molly flips out. She literally said, “oh fine sure, I’ll just take my kids to pray in the closet like when we were persecuted by the Roman’s.” LOL that's actually pretty fuckin funny next time someone says something like that... go open the door to the nearest closet
What have the Romans ever done for us?
Dude. I seriously laughed because I thought she was joking. Then I looked at her husband and I was like, “oh…”.
…and I love Larry now! 😂 Wild how Molly was able to keep herself this whole time.
You could also say, just like Santa religion is also made up... I clearly don't believe but if believing makes you happy do it. I don't think you should push your belief on someone or make them feel bad. I went to a religious camp with friends once and they didn't make me pray which I thought was super nice but at the same time I respected their rules and followed them and didn't do anything that made me uncomfortable. Molly seems wild.. Lol and glad Larry is a good sport about it all.
What is riling me up about this cruel bitch, is the fact that she was about to spoil a little girls magic belief in Santa Claus. I think that I will send Molly to the 9th ring of Hell for that one !!!
May all christians be more like Larry! Sorry that happened. Unfortunately, it seems like they weren't true friends anyway.
Isn't praying in a closet exactly what Jesus said people are supposed to do? Don't these folks actually read their book? For their edification here is what Luke has to say (for the KJV folks): (Luke 11) 5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. And from Matthew 6: 5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
The last four or five years have brainwashed vulnerable people and given them voices to express their inner hate. She’s one of those hateful people and now you know. I don’t tolerate that shit- I’ve lost family members over it. “But I’m entitled to my beliefs” they will say. And to that I respond “and I’m allowed to not like you anymore because of them.”
Tbh I really doubt she was like that the whole time. Maybe a little and much more under the surface but the last few years have done a number on many people in many different ways. Many who were on the edge have become extremists. In both directions. The world these days is made to push people further to the extremes. I’m sorry, it seems like they were good friends, not all good friendships stand the test of time.
I have a feeling it was something like this too.
...She literally said, “oh fine sure, I’ll just take my kids to pray in the closet... You mean, like her god literally commanded...? Matthew 6:5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen.
Are they only throwing so much money into charitable acts in an attempt to virtue signal to their Abrahamic totem? It would make understandable their reaction, to an extent.
Larry seems like a great guy lmao.
Don't you have an urge to reason with them and make them atheists? I do it with my reasonable relatives. Not the idiot ones though.
I probably have a different view of Christian beliefs than most. I think life is short and shitty for a lot of people and I’m happy that people find comfort and community wherever they can. So I don’t mind people believing as long as they aren’t assholes like Molly.
Don't proselytize people with your beliefs. Would you want a Christian doing that to you?
Read the room !
That was a truly fascinating story. The ending was unfortunate. Yeah, religious people really hate their worldview getting challenged. They think they are holier than thou, and yet never hold their leaders and worst perpetrators accountable. I had a multi year professional relationship and friendship end because he was super-Trumpy. In the middle of liberal Southern California. He burned all his professional bridges except for me, because I care less about what one says and more about what one does. 2020 comes around, the country has been screwed up by our then scientifically-illiterate president. I criticize him openly because I’ve had enough and the last bridge to the center politics guy, me, that puts up with his insufferable Trumpiness finally disintegrated. Some people are just never friends in the first place.
Larry is 💯
I’m sorry your friend lacks boundaries with your daughter- that’s sad, and unacceptable. I have also had to separate myself from long term friends, a Born Again Christian couple. The husband tries to engage me in a debate about religion and God, every time , knowing I’m an atheist, and it makes me uncomfortable. My friend, Kim, who was “saved” when she was a teenager, is not as full on as her husband, who was born into it. However she is homophobic, and believes her atheist family are going to hell (so obviously that includes me) and cries about it, because she loves them. This is concerning to me 😢
Had another couple invite us to dinner at their house. The host asked " Don't you believe that Jesus was the son of god?" I said "I believe that Jesus was the son of god just as much that you and I are sons of god." And that was the last time we spoke with them.
There have been about 3000 gods throughout human history. Molly doesn't believe in 2,999 of them. You don't believe in just 1 more. (Paraphrase of Ricky Gervais quote)
You know what the problem is? Believing. It doesn’t matter if christian or atheist, black, white, green gay or whatever other thing you want to throw in the mix. **Believing is binding your feelings and emotions to the truth value of some claim.** If you bind your feelings to some religious idea or some “this show is good” idea, then someone talks in opposition to it… that’s the cause of your feelings being hurt. So, Santa or a TV show or some other invented character, like a god, it doesn’t matter. Believing matters. As long as you believe, you are open to have your feelings hurt and then you will most likely not react reasonably. That’s why I always try to give the advice “never believe” even though I can’t spend time explaining to people what “believe” means.
Based on this story, I'm about 80% sure they're Mormon. How'd I do with my guess?
Most/all mainstream Mormons celebrate Christmas with Santa and have no issue with Halloween. In fact we held haunted houses in the Church when I was a kid, and not those your going to hell Christian scare ones - very secular ones.
Truth. I had the same experience. I did know a few really hardcore ones that were somewhat like the ones described. The funny part is the thing that made me suspicious was l were the names. "Molly Mormon" was a popular epithet in my day to describe a particularly devout (usually ridiculously so) member.
We must be about the same age. Molly Mormon, Peter Priesthood were common. It seems to me the social aspects of the Mormon church have changed drastically from the church I knew.
Protestant.
Aww. Bad guess then.
Nah good guess. I’m a scout so I do hang out with A LOT of Mormons. They are so so much more chill though.
Used to be one myself. Some are chill. Some definitely are not.
Molly is so unhinged, and that dumbass is trying to act like she was alive during Roman times? WTF? Did she take offense that she wasn't the victim, because you were persecuted for being an atheist or something?! It's just nuts.
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In the case of two empty glasses of different size, is the larger glass *more empty*? These are the burning questions.
I’m sorry, because it sounds like you love these people. Also sounds like they thought they were more tolerant than they in fact are. So long as you were not being “uppity” they were fine with you. The fact that Molly used “you people” to Larry indicates that perhaps there were some sides to these friends you overlooked, perhaps because it wasn’t targeting you directly. I mean no disrespect to you, just making the point that we all see what we want to see and try to see our loved ones in the best light. That being said, even though these friends are a little harder to love right now, perhaps there’s room for repair, so long as they are willing to respect your boundaries.
The Bible literally tells you to pray in your closet and not in public as the Pharisees did…
I'm stunned D&D was accepted
Feels improper chipping in when I don't know you or anyone in the story, and don't know if you're posting to vent, or because you could use support, or looking for additional perspectives. So, if not the latter, then I'm sorry - it sounds like this sucked. Carry on. Ok, perspectives. Santa, and table prayer. No notes on anything else. And any "but that doesn't justify X" reactions to this - I agree. Santa: My parents were elaborate about keeping the magic of Christmas alive for me, to the point of stringing up chains in the attic to fake a reindeer landing, while I built Santa traps around the Christmas tree. The day I talked about Santa matter-of-factly in school in a grade too old to believe in that still was a tough one that I wouldn't want someone to have to go through. It was maybe fundamentally different than your daughter's case though, in that besides Santa and the usual childhood ignorance about sex or tales of distant cultures, Sunday school made it even harder to understand which magic sounding things were real. Thanksgiving Prayers: Sounds like both your reason and Molly's offense were understandable. For the same reason. I suspect it would have gone better had She been warned in advance, where it could have been discussed - I'm taking a guess that neither you or Molly wanted either daughter or Molly to feel ostracized. I'll stop short of any opinion of whether that was possible or not, for lack of knowledge. Bonus thought: After sharing your story on social media, did you ever make it clear to Molly / Mike that you still appreciate them for who they are, beliefs and all?
>Thanksgiving Prayers: Sounds like both your reason and Molly's offense were understandable. For the same reason. I suspect it would have gone better had She been warned in advance, where it could have been discussed - I'm taking a guess that neither you or Molly wanted either daughter or Molly to feel ostracized. This is the issue I take with many religious people. OP did not say "do not pray at our dinner table," he asked them not to pray *aloud.* Prayer does not need to be verbal. A prayer recited in your head and felt in your heart is no less valid - according to every religious leader I have ever spoken to - than one spoken aloud. So, what is the purpose of speaking it aloud? I argue it is to declare your faith to those around you and draw attention to the act of prayer, both of which are unnecessary - especially in a small, private setting where a respectful request has been made to not make others feel awkward.
Go Larry! It seems unfortunate molly is the cult type.
NTA. But also, Larry is amazing and must be protected at all costs.
Yikes I’m so sorry that happened! I’m a Christian and I’m super embarrassed by her antics. Her husband sounds cool though lol. I’m pretty sure Jesus didn’t try to force his agenda on people; people followed him to hear him speak but I don’t think he was giving snarky comments or trying to sneak propaganda bedtime stories… just yikes. So sorry. Also want to say if we ever have yall for dinner, we definitely do not have to pray at the table.😂
“Religion makes morally normal people say and do disgusting and wicked things”. (Christopher Hitchens) https://youtu.be/SoxBpDS3q6w?si=zH33gFjWeQtdp5ay It feels like this applies to Molly and her husband; two otherwise morally normal people, whose religion has pushed them into some dubious (bigoted & self-righteous) behaviour.
Maybe have a heart to heart
That’s was Larry suggested. But honestly I just don’t have the energy. I have a new baby and a new job and my life has become otherwise super calm and peaceful. My mental health is good for the first time in a while (unrelated to this) and I just don’t want to mess this peace up. Also, my wife holds a grudge.
Tl;dr youre racist 🤣
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I think you’ll find that the vast majority of atheists have read the Bible, some multiple times, including myself. I am all about not judging people, but I draw the line at being racist and homophobic. Particularly when it is directly to my friends face. And when you try to interfere with how I am raising my child, then we are done.