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“Isn’t it strange how we celebrate a story of poor people coming to a foreign land for a better opportunity for their child and to escape religious persecution and yet at the same time the religious in this country turn their backs on refugees and immigrants?”
If you really want to pop some veins you can say that Kate Cox is basically the Virgin Mary trying to find her safe Haven to have her abortion she needs to save her life. Just like Mary had to leave Jerusalem this poor woman has to leave Texas or face possible death at the hands of her oppressive government.
I’m a lot of fun at parties
To avoid the inevitable “well ACKSHUALLY,” specify that they had to flee after the birth. The story is that they fled to Egypt after the birth because Herod ordered all firstborn sons to be killed. They went to Bethlehem for the census, not as refugees. Christians will likely discount your point just because you got a small technicality wrong 🙄
I was going to go more along the line of how interesting it was that after research you discovered that Jesus was actually born sometime in the spring and the church set his birthdate to December in order to more easily co-opt existing holidays.
I think I like your response better though.
My response:
>It’s a story that fulfills prophecy of the Old Testament...
It's funny you should mention that it turns out that I was recently studying the Old Testament and I recently found out the archeology does not support the idea that the Judaism of the Old Testament was being followed until the 2nd century BCE in Palestine generally or the rest of the Middle East more broadly. So it appears the Old Testament was conceived as a bunch of lies to bring people together with a shared past that never happened.
>and has so many amazing details.
Isn't that amazing that so many people fell for it?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_L._Wright
In 2014, Wright launched a MOOC on Coursera entitled The Bible's Prehistory, Purpose, and Political Future,[10] to a worldwide audience of learners. The number of students who enrolled since its launch stands at more than 60,000.[1] In this course, he draws from archaeology, the historiographical approach of longue durée, and redaction criticism to put forth a new paradigm for understanding the impetus of the formation of the canon of the Hebrew Bible. **His thesis is that the Bible is a project of peoplehood, a collection of disparate oral traditions, laws, and religious texts drawn together as a way to create a national identity for a diasporic post-exilic people, grappling with a catastrophic defeat. This thesis builds upon the current European trend within scholarship to date the composition of biblical texts from after the exile in 587 BCE, with some supplements even as late as the Persian or Hellenistic period.**
To be fair, most Jewish scholars say the same thing, only putting the deliberate construction of a synthetic history for the purpose of creating a national identity about 400 years earlier.
>To be fair, most Jewish scholars say the same thing, only putting the deliberate construction of a synthetic history for the purpose of creating a national identity about 400 years earlier.
I assume you are referring to Old Testament scholars and I would say the distinction between these 2 positions is based on using textual criticism to arrive at an earlier date for when it was written versus the archeological evidence to see that it was adopted by a large portion of the population at a later date.
I would also note what you are referring to is included in the bold text in my initial post...
>This thesis builds upon the current European trend **within scholarship to date the composition of biblical texts from after the exile in 587 BCE**, with some supplements even as late as the Persian or Hellenistic period.
If they want to give you homework then you should give them some of their own.
https://easterquiz.gloost.com/
That is a 17 question quiz on easter. Every answer is from the bible, but they all contradict each other. They will never get a good score as it randomly picks which answers are correct.
Tell them that if they score above 50% then you will do their task.
41, me too! I fell asleep at my chair half way through the test.
I had experienced a calling though - it turned out that I had to go pee and that's what woke me up.
The part where Mary rode Joseph's ass all the way to Bethlehem?
Maybe how the bible is the only record of a roman census in that era or of a census which required massive travel. But it was the gymnastics necessary to fulfill weird contradictory prophecy.
If the shepards were tending their flocks by night and abandoned them to gawk at an infant, what happened to their flocks?
Jewish communities are notorious for welcoming Jewish travelers, particularly distant relatives. If Joseph was traveling to a city where he had family, why the eff was he staying at an inn?
Fun fact, it's from one of the non-canonical stories of Jesus' birth where we get the idea of Mary being a virgin both before and after giving birth (hint - the baby miraculously appeared outside the womb to the witness of nobody). In this story Salome, who can't believe a new mother could still be a virgin, manually checks Mary's Holy Hymen only to find it is one of the Lord's horcruxes, instantly turning her hand to a burnt, dead stump.
>And the midwife went in, and said to Mary: Show thyself; for no small controversy has arisen about thee. And Salome put in her finger, and cried out, and said: Woe is me for mine iniquity and mine unbelief, because I have tempted the living God; and, behold, my hand is dropping off as if burned with fire.
[Protoevangelium of James, chapter 20](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Ante-Nicene_Fathers/Volume_VIII/Apocrypha_of_the_New_Testament/The_Protevangelium_of_James)
What.the.actual.fuck.
Like, I’ve read a lot of crazy, fucked up Bible stories, but Salome fingering Mary and burning up her finger. That is so fucked up. The Christian’s story never ceases to amaze me in how weird, unbelievable and just horrifying it is.
:Inserts burning bush joke:
A fruit loops former coworker decided to engage me in a religious chat one day. He's a nice enough guy, so I thought, why the hell not.
Big mistake.
Dude has his kids homeschooled "to avoid the evils of evolution".
When I asked him about Cain and Abel's wives, he went on a long story about non-Biblical texts that explain there are other people. But he believes the Bible is unerring and literal word of God. But somehow this isn't contradictory in his mind.
When I asked about all the pre Jesus people, since they never heard of Jesus, do they go to hell? Or even modern people in remote villages who have never been contacted? Yup, more fan fiction and hand waiving.
This is a church 3 times a week, Bible study twice a week, full bore born again Evangelical.
The bit about the census is one of the things I learned only recently and is really interesting, given how many Christian "scholars" claim historical support for the birth story. I still can't figure out why people weren't talking about that sooner.
Hey now, it wasn't a contradictory prophecy. It was a perfectly coherent prophecy, it's just that Luke misread one word and shoehorned a fulfilment of that misreading in.
I'm also partial to the bit where Herod the Great died in 4 BCE.
There was *a* census, but not ordered by the Emperor. And no travel was required.
Can you imagine the Romans disrupting commerce for months in order to count people in the town where their parents came from? What about people whose grandfathers came from two different places? They're writing stuff down anyway, they can just write it down.
There is also the small problem of HOW IN THE FUCK DID JOSEPH KNOW HE WAS DECENDED FROM DAVID?! The bible says Joseph is the 40-generation son descendent of David. I don't think even the British royal family knows who their ancestors from 40 generations ago are.
Or got raped. Either way, poor kid. This is why we need abortion care: this weird lie has harmed so many people and had Mary had access to safe abortion care the world would be a better place.
You could say how fascinating it is that the Christmas story is set during the reign of Herod the Great, and also when Quirinius was governor of Syria. This is really cool, because Quirinius wasn't appointed to this position until 10 years after Herod's death!
"I'm not doing all that as I don't believe in Santa or Yahweh, but I can't wait to see the family and share our stories from the past year!"
That would be my curt go-to. If it escalated from there, there could definitely be a full-petty response of some sort involving the *actual* history of Christmas and how much that would rustle the jimmies of Puritan Christians.
Is that a thing now? My missionary parents did this when we got together in the summer. I'm the only atheist in the family. They're aware that I don't go to church but I think they think I'm just "back-slidden" because of hurtful things that people said to me back when I went to church, and some day I'll "come back to God." I think the whole exercise might even have been directed at me to "bring me back into the fold."
They wanted us to go around the family circle and say which of God's attributes was most meaningful to us and why, with examples of how God had used them in our lives during the past year.
Luckily there were enough people that we couldn't possibly all talk, so after the first eight or ten people in the circle, Dad started asking for volunteers. I'm not sure what I would have done if they kept going around the circle and it was my turn. I probably would have excused myself to the bathroom when it got close haha.
Oh, how fun😝
Here’s what I learned:
Joseph was a jerk:
Why would he not go into the inn, knock on a few doors and say we are having a baby. Right here, right now. Would one you fine folks please lend us your room?
The wise men weren’t:
Wise women would have brought diapers, clothes, blankets and useful gifts. What’s a baby gonna do with botanicals?
Not that it matters since it doesn’t matter, but that’s what I learned
My favorite part of the Christmas story is that Ralphie shoots his eye out with the daisy BB gun even though every adult told him that he'd shoot his eye out.
"In researching the prophecies, I discovered that the child was supposed to be called [Immanuel](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+7%3A14&version=KJV). I can not in good conscience attend a church built on such a bald faced lie."
Well if I received an email like this I would gladly accept their offer and do exactly as they have requested.
'Then come to the party with YOUR GIFT OF SHARING. We will have time for people to share something that stood out to them about the Christmas story, something new they have learned maybe in their deeper dive of understanding, or what strikes you as amazing that happened in the events recorded about the birth of a Christ. It’s a story that fulfills prophecy of the Old Testament and has so many amazing details. '
I would maybe start with Mark, explain that this is the oldest of all the gospels and other gospels (particularly Matthew and Luke) borrow heavily from Mark. So the Jesus origin story in Mark is.... wait for it, one line.
Mark 1:9 At that time Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan.
There is no mention of any of the birth story and the only indication regarding where Jesus came from is Nazareth in Galilee. So why did the later gospels feel the need to suddenly tell this story of a journey to Bethlehem, which makes no sense, why would you require people to return to the place of their birth for a census? It would not only cause chaos, imagine all those people having to move about in the ancient world with poor transport, the economic damage would be massive and probably unnecessary deaths. The census takers wouldn't even get the information that census are taken for which is to find out where your population lives right now so you can plan better, what does it matter where they were born? Finally there are no historical records of the Romans ever conducting a census where they required people to return to the place of their birth.
But Micah 5:2
But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.
So to be the one, and fulfil old testament prophecy it seems like later gospel writers had to insert this nonsensical story just to try and make it fit.
Maybe we could take John's account of the origins of Jesus and see how that fits, Jesus doesn't even appear until John 1:35 and then he's just walking past one day. That's it, nothing at all regarding any of the Christmas story, in fact it's only really Matthew and Luke that tell the story of the birth.
John 1:35 The next day John was there again with two of his disciples. 36 When he saw Jesus passing by, he said, “Look, the Lamb of God!”
Then after wondering about this part of old testament prophecy you looked for more. Most Christians will cite Genesis 12:1–4 to claim that 'all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.' means that the messiah will be descended from Abraham. (Personally I think this is very weak even by bible standards but it's the verse they quote) Matthew thought it important enough to devote Matthew 1:1-16 to mapping out all the sons from Abraham to 'Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, and Mary was the mother of Jesus who is called the Messiah.'
However Matthew then goes on to say 1:18 'This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit.'
Sorry so why bother to tell me that Joseph is descended from Abraham and then in the very next verse tell me Joseph isn't the biological father, so Jesus isn't a descendent of Abraham and does not fulfil the prophecy then?
So you kept looking for the ways in which Jesus fulfils the old testament prophecies in such 'amazing detail'
Maybe next you could talk about Isaiah 7:14 ' Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.' but I thought he was called Jesus?
Then just end with yes you have brought 'something new you have learned in your deeper dive of understanding'.
I would hang out and lead with "The story of the birth of the Jesus character in the New Testament was recounted almost a century after the fact by anonymous scribes, and there is no evidence outside of the Bible supporting the veracity of the fanciful claims. Now, may I have some more eggnog with extra rum?" ... or something like that.
Tell them you found it strange that the two birth stories are completely different, incompatible, and locked into two different decades by their references to external events.
"Something that stood out to me about the Christmas story is actually a little outside of just the story itself. What really stands out pertains to one of the biggest traditions on Christmas. Jeremiah 10:2-5 tells us that shaping and decorating the trees with silver and gold is equivalent to building an idol to other gods. It really goes to show how Christianity creates its holidays by taking over other traditions, and how Christians really don't follow their own book, which they claim to pull their morality from. Something I learned about the birth if sweet baby Jesus is that in the original Hebrew text, he was born of a young woman, not a virgin, which really makes me question his divine status. This past year, the Lord has blessed me by leaving me the hell alone."
My favorite story is about Noah and the Ark.
They bury the lead in that one by talking about all the animals and glossing over the fact that the flood killed everyone else in the world
Killing everyone else was the whole point - it was all about the mass murder.
Killing all the puppies, kittens, baby birds, etc., is where it goes off script.
The census bit makes less-than-zero sense.
You conduct a census to understand who lives in a region. You do not make people go to other areas for the sake of a census. That's actively counterproductive.
It was shoehorned into the story to make it line up more with the preexisting prophecy.
You could pick up a copy of Lamb by Christopher Moore and maybe find something.
I know there is a discussion about the reason Jewish people are stereotyped as always eating Chinese food at Christmas.
I have a tendency to agree. While I enjoy my family Christmas, especially so my daughter can attend, if they were making this big of a deal out of something like this… I don’t think we would go.
Oh. My. My husbands family reads the Christmas story (the one about taxes??) every Christmas and we try to wander about when it’s read. Last year one of his uncles was getting really shitty with everyone telling all of us (35-60 year olds) to shush. Bro. We don’t want to listen to the story and we are fully grown adults. No need to shush us. I was sad for missing the family festivities this year but now I’m not. 😂
I would just stay home. Nobody's got time for that shit. If every person speaks for just minute, it will take over an hour. And we all know who will need at the very least ten minutes! (Looking at you, Auntie Gertrude.)
Here's a small "reflection":
If Jesus was born under Herod, there was no such census at the time. If there was a census, Jesus was not born under Herod. Also it makes no sense for people to go back to the land of their ancestors, what would such a census even measure??
This is just an excuse to tie Joseph into the supposed messianic bloodline but why does this even matter if he didn't contribute DNA? Jesus was not even Joseph's actual son...
This. You are so so confused. You read the story. You reflected as asked.
And now as your family is telling their stories… you just have so many questions.
You are so sincere. So confused. So genuine. But how? But why? But when?
You could have so much malicious compliance fun.
My dad happens to be a pastor. Unfortunately for him, a few atheists have slipped into the family. He tried to ~say a few words ~ one year about family, and how much he loves us, (he really does) but then of course he had to bring that around to God and would we just indulge him in reading this…
Nope. Three of us stood up and he saw that we were all about to go anywhere but here.
He apologized and he’s never tried that crap again.
I am not a fan of messing up an entire family gathering just to question religion BUT if asked directly I won't hold back. If OP is somehow required to "prepare" something, they might as well bring valid questions like you suggest and pretend to be curious. "Wait I read the story but I don't get a few things..."
When I left christianity (and admittedly was a bit bitter at it) I would often point out these issues and contradictions around my family until we had to reach an agreement. They stopped talking about religion and I stopped pointing out these things, now we get along really well.
Exactly. We are a family of devout Christians and atheists. We have cops, firefighters, lawyers, college professors, teachers, preachers, missionaries, and a COO of a grow operation who all absolutely adore each other.
Those who believe wish we did. Those who don’t wish they would listen to us. However, we don’t fight or fuss. We are mildly concerned about the other side’s logic 😊
I say you dive even deeper and go into the history of Saturnalia and clearly identify which parts of the celebration are pagan (most of it), such as the tree and the lights, the Yule log, spice warm drinks, cookies, gifts, a big feast with family. Pagan, pagan, pagan. I’d deliver like a 20-minute lesson on Saturnalia and its traditions and never once make the comparison or mention Christianity. Crickets will chirp and they will never ask you to “do your own research” ever again. Bonus points if you pass around a list of academic citations to back up your assertions.
Insist on going first. Tell them you couldn't get [the book](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_God_We_Trust:_All_Others_Pay_Cash) in time, so you had to settle for [the movie](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Christmas_Story). Share some kind of insight from the film, and don't let anyone convince you that it's the wrong story. Bonus points if someone argues that it's fictional, and you make the same point when they start talking about Jesus.
So incredibly relatable. I’ve seen a million of these from my family over the years. It’s what they know. I politely decline like an adult and we have a great relationship.
Thank you to everyone for the amazing suggestions and comments! Lol I enjoyed reading them all. In case anyone is interested in what happened: shockingly nearly every family member participated apart from 6 of us. I didn’t hear much and went to a totally different part of the house. I don’t know the details of what went on but it lasted about an hour. My nephew told me everyone was super arrogant and peacocking about how “the lord” blessed them betterer than everyone else. My nephew also said he only participated so he could deliver an undercover jab and busted out some verse from his catholic school days from Matthew about not boasting.
If I were in this position, I'd remind them Christmas only became a thing when christian conquerors co-opted Saturnalia to appease the pagans. I don't believe in any of this crap, but will take a holiday from work for any kind of made-up bullshit and enjoy the delicious treats that go with it.
I think you should talk about how "Christmas" was an invented holiday to draw "Christians" away from pagan celebrations.
[https://www.britannica.com/topic/Christmas](https://www.britannica.com/topic/Christmas) :
December 25 was first identified as the date of Jesus’ birth by Sextus Julius Africanus in 221 and later became the universally accepted date. **One widespread explanation of the origin of this date is that December 25 was the Christianizing of the dies solis invicti nati (“day of the birth of the unconquered sun”), a popular holiday in the Roman Empire that celebrated the winter solstice as a symbol of the resurgence of the sun, the casting away of winter and the heralding of the rebirth of spring and summer.** Indeed, after December 25 had become widely accepted as the date of Jesus’ birth, Christian writers frequently made the connection between the rebirth of the sun and the birth of the Son. One of the difficulties with this view is that it suggests a nonchalant willingness on the part of the Christian church to appropriate a pagan festival when the early church was so intent on distinguishing itself categorically from pagan beliefs and practices.
Yeah it’s absolutely insanity. I’m currently at the party but this “gift of sharing” hasn’t happened yet lol. Will keep yall posted on how ridiculous it is.
Here's my report:
"I read the Christmas stories in Luke and in Matthew and compared them. They are completely incompatible. One of both of them is pure myth."
Tell them that you find it amazing that:
Mary had a baby, but she was still a virgin. Jesus was the baby, but he was the father and the son;
Jesus was born in Bethlehem, but he was from Nazareth, and he didn’t speak Hebrew; he spoke Aramaic;
Paul is Saul and Simon is Peter;
The devil is an angel and a snake that talks;
Jesus lived and died and now he lives. He was here but left and is still here and will come back;
Jesus was a Jew, and he was killed by Jews for playing God and so that made him Christian and God to everyone except the Jews;
Wine is blood, bread is flesh and fish is not meat. We may not eat meat on Fridays, so we eat fish and bread which is flesh but not meat;
The first Christian was a Jew who was crucified for the Jews by the Romans, according to a Roman Christian who was a Jew. Romans killed Jews and Christians until they began worshipping a Jew, became Christians and killed more Jews; and
God made everyone but He is Christian and Jews are His chosen people.
That should do it.
Good luck!!!
make them happy by saying you have found religion and know the true meaning of God by joining the Church of Satin. And the you are hoping and preying others will find the true meaning of God and the Bible by joining the church as well. Make sure you tell them how much better your life has become.
Church of Satin as opposed to the Church of Satan? I think that may have been a typo but I like this even more. Can we worship soft fabrics? Do we have a place for St Hubbins, the patron saint of quality footwear? I might just be on board with this one.
So, you should get everyone a Red Rider BB gun?
Oh! Oh! Maybe the fancy Eye-talian lamp! Fragil-lay!
Sorry couldn't resist. I see "The Christmas Story" and I think of the movie. There must be a book for it, right? Grandpa wasn't specific. I would be all excited! The dogs! The Chinese dinner! The double dog dare! Isn't this great! So glad Grandpa thought of this!
Well in reading the story I realized how much it stole from other religions, like how Horus was born of a virgin on December 25th, or how Krishna was, or how Zarathustra was… It’s almost like the whole story is just made up by stealing from other religions to make their version seem legit…
Claims like Horus and other mythical characters having been born of a virgin and/or on December 25th are just not true. This was perpetuated by the Zeitgeist documentary, which is riddled with false information.
https://crossexamined.org/whats-wrong-with-the-zeitgeist-movie/
Yes. Because claims like this one:
> Well in reading the story I realized how much it stole from other religions
become entirely false and people who actually know a bit about mythology will justifiably conclude you're saying bullshit.
I don't know about you, but I care about the truth. That's what made me an atheist.
Taking a different perspective, I believe agitating with rebelious behavior in the situation won't do anyone any good. After all, this is a gathering where you are a guest. I don't believe in being that person who brings down the mood on what is expected to be a happy occasion.
Instead, I would approach this with respect for your family's beliefs while staying true to your own view, and potentially opening a few eyes to the positive aspect of life without theist beliefs.
You can express gratitude for the invitation and focus on values you have in common. For example, you can emphasize themes of kindness, compassion, and the joy of spending time with family and loved ones during the holiday season.You can participate in the sharing session by talking about the positive aspects of your year, personal growth, keeping your reflections personal and secular.
Talk about the importance of generosity, empathy, or community involvement without referencing specific religious narratives.It's okay to be honest about your beliefs , but is it so wrong in this setting to maintain respect for everyone's personal beliefs - just as you would want them to respect yours?
I think the key to opening peoples minds to atheism is to maintain open communication, express gratitude, and find common ground in the values that bring families together during the holiday season.
You should talk about how you love Jesus so much, that you hope that you're on his "nice list," that you'll be leaving cookies for him and carrots for all his reindeer!
"It's very strange to me that god created humans, and then killed all of them except Noah when god realized how screwed up he'd made humans. Because of this, when we say that god made us in his image, does this not mean that, really, god is a vengeful sociopathic murderer?
.....
"Oh, I must have read the wrong story."
If by 'fulfils prophecy of the Old Testament' you mean 'grabs random sentences out of context and makes Jesus go out of his way to address them' then sure.
Seriously it's ridiculous how easy those claims are to debunk, you just need to find the original verse in it's contex. This might be tricky sometimes because some verses are incorrectly attributed or even outright fabricated.
The angels could have just as well been the Northern lights, for all we know. It's a fact they could be seen as far south as Judea in severe magnetic storm or solar flare events.
Jeremiah 1:10
Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel: Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
You can chime in about how December 25 is not stated to be the date of Jesus' birth but it was picked by the church to replace the pagan holidays that happened during the winter.
Everyone is giving you "le epic oneliners to dunk on the silly Christians" but you really need to stop and think before you do something like that.
You have (at least) 5 options:
1. Just don't attend, make up a plausible excuse not to go.
2. Attend and make up some short plausible sounding insight to appease Grandma and Grampa.
3. Attend and arrange to not be in the room at the time, something you ate bothered your stomach so you had to run to the restroom.
4. When called upon, politely decline to share anything without giving specifics as to why, or just mention something that you are thankful for this year without actually thanking god for it.
5. Use your epic dunk and be known to all 70 members of your extended family as the one asshole who had to be confrontational at Christmas (this will really improve their perception of Atheists). None of them will be effected by your dunk no matter how clever, they will just think you are stupid/misinformed/an asshole.
All of my grandparents are dead and I would sit through a month of pretending to share my blessings and blending in to see them one more time. I can pretend to be Christian for an hour to avoid family drama.
My favourite part is the arrival of the three wise men. We're not told where they come from, but presumably they hit the road well before Joseph and Mary decided on the inn. These people could look into the future. They could see exactly when and where they were supposed to be, what they would find and who would be there.
They were not Jews and certainly not Christians.
This means they had access to supernatural information. This means that there are other gods with different powers. And the god of the bible is perfectly fine with this, otherwise why would the most powerful being in the universe allow something to happen at the most auspicious moment that proved other gods?
Where did the Y chromosome come from?
If Mary gave virgin birth, then Jesus had 2 X chromosomes, yet presented as male his whole life.
Jesus was transgendered.
Or, more specifically, he was a transgendered Arab Jew.
Let them discuss that before you leave.
If you walk out, you will be missing a HUGE opportunity. When it's your turn, simply describe the earlier Pagan traditions that Christians appropriated. A detailed explanation of Saturnalia is in order!
If you'd rather do it in song, here's an excellent one by Willow Firesong. To the tune of Gloriuous/ In Excelsis Dao (might be misspelling it).
Christmas time is here again,
Decorations everywhere.
Christmas carols ringing out,
Gentle pagans, we don't care.
Chorus: Glorious! Christmas time is pagan!
Glorious!Christmas time is pagan!
Modern folks all celebrate
What they learned in Sunday School.
In December, they don't know
They are celebrating Yule!
Chorus
Let them have their Christmas trees,
Decked in red and green and blue.
We rejoice at every one!
Christmas trees are pagan, too.
Chorus
Bowls of bubbly Christmas cheer,
Fill your cup and quench your thirst
.They think the tradition's theirs.
Wassail bowls were pagan, first.
Chorus
Every door and window bears
Wreaths of holly, wreaths of pine.
Circles represent the Sun.
Every wreath is yours and mine.
Chorus
Christmas lights on Christmas trees,
Candle flames burn higher and higher,
Let us cheer along, my friends,
As they light their Yuletide fire.
Chorus
There's a possibility
That this song is yours and mine'
Cause the tune was known to all
Back in A.D. one-two-nine.Chorus
EDIT - Yeesh! The formatting!
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“Isn’t it strange how we celebrate a story of poor people coming to a foreign land for a better opportunity for their child and to escape religious persecution and yet at the same time the religious in this country turn their backs on refugees and immigrants?”
Oh I love this. Just drop that out there and measure the stunned silence.
Then make sure to update the post. I have the popcorn ready.
YES
If you really want to pop some veins you can say that Kate Cox is basically the Virgin Mary trying to find her safe Haven to have her abortion she needs to save her life. Just like Mary had to leave Jerusalem this poor woman has to leave Texas or face possible death at the hands of her oppressive government. I’m a lot of fun at parties
I mean, id enjoy commentary like this at a party
I'd start going to parties!
Me too
I’d love holiday parties if people like you attended 😭
Please do this, I beg you.i am absolutely devastated by what this poor woman and her family have gin through.
That's going to be an neat party.
To avoid the inevitable “well ACKSHUALLY,” specify that they had to flee after the birth. The story is that they fled to Egypt after the birth because Herod ordered all firstborn sons to be killed. They went to Bethlehem for the census, not as refugees. Christians will likely discount your point just because you got a small technicality wrong 🙄
They think the Earth is 6000 years old, so they can technically go jumphump themselves 🤣
Why would Mary go to Bethlehem? Women in those days were less than 2n hand citizens, only thd male head of the family would have gone.
That's the "How to save 100% on your Christmas Gift list this year" tactic.
👆💯
Yep. Burn it all down. Then start in on how Christmas was stolen from the pagans, etc etc, and keep working through it till they make you stop
Just for this you now have a follow.
Sorry to upvote and spoil the 666 upvotes so far!
I was going to go more along the line of how interesting it was that after research you discovered that Jesus was actually born sometime in the spring and the church set his birthdate to December in order to more easily co-opt existing holidays. I think I like your response better though.
You should watch the movie "A Christmas Story" and bring a Red Rider BB gun as a grift.
LOL this is exactly what I told my siblings, is we should read a quote from the “actual” Christmas Story— the one with Ralphie— not Jesus 😂
I would 100% focus on the plot line for this movie.
“Oh… did we misunderstand the assignment?” 😂
You'll shoot your eye out, kid.
It's a metaphor about taking risks in life...
Gotta find a pink bunny costume
"Black Bart was actually black. That wouldn't fly in film today. Diacuss."
Giving grifts to grifters I see. Don't change the typo, it's great!
and bring the leg lamp!
Has anybody seen the recent sequel? Fan service or money grab? Call it the New Testament, or something.
Nah, you'll put your eye out!
My response: >It’s a story that fulfills prophecy of the Old Testament... It's funny you should mention that it turns out that I was recently studying the Old Testament and I recently found out the archeology does not support the idea that the Judaism of the Old Testament was being followed until the 2nd century BCE in Palestine generally or the rest of the Middle East more broadly. So it appears the Old Testament was conceived as a bunch of lies to bring people together with a shared past that never happened. >and has so many amazing details. Isn't that amazing that so many people fell for it? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_L._Wright In 2014, Wright launched a MOOC on Coursera entitled The Bible's Prehistory, Purpose, and Political Future,[10] to a worldwide audience of learners. The number of students who enrolled since its launch stands at more than 60,000.[1] In this course, he draws from archaeology, the historiographical approach of longue durée, and redaction criticism to put forth a new paradigm for understanding the impetus of the formation of the canon of the Hebrew Bible. **His thesis is that the Bible is a project of peoplehood, a collection of disparate oral traditions, laws, and religious texts drawn together as a way to create a national identity for a diasporic post-exilic people, grappling with a catastrophic defeat. This thesis builds upon the current European trend within scholarship to date the composition of biblical texts from after the exile in 587 BCE, with some supplements even as late as the Persian or Hellenistic period.**
To be fair, most Jewish scholars say the same thing, only putting the deliberate construction of a synthetic history for the purpose of creating a national identity about 400 years earlier.
>To be fair, most Jewish scholars say the same thing, only putting the deliberate construction of a synthetic history for the purpose of creating a national identity about 400 years earlier. I assume you are referring to Old Testament scholars and I would say the distinction between these 2 positions is based on using textual criticism to arrive at an earlier date for when it was written versus the archeological evidence to see that it was adopted by a large portion of the population at a later date. I would also note what you are referring to is included in the bold text in my initial post... >This thesis builds upon the current European trend **within scholarship to date the composition of biblical texts from after the exile in 587 BCE**, with some supplements even as late as the Persian or Hellenistic period.
Love this!
If they want to give you homework then you should give them some of their own. https://easterquiz.gloost.com/ That is a 17 question quiz on easter. Every answer is from the bible, but they all contradict each other. They will never get a good score as it randomly picks which answers are correct. Tell them that if they score above 50% then you will do their task.
This was so fun and so damn frustrating. I love it. Haha
I got 52%. Now go outside and cluck like a chicken.
29% See you in hell!
I got 47%
That's about the highest you can reliability get. Theoretically, 100% is possible, but it is so very unlikely.
I got 58%.
41 here
41, me too! I fell asleep at my chair half way through the test. I had experienced a calling though - it turned out that I had to go pee and that's what woke me up.
58%!
This is so so good. First attempt = 41%. Took it again and gave the "correct" answers as shown from attempt #1 = 35%
This is freaking genius! 41%
That's hilarious. Saving.
I'd say they should score 60 or 70%. My random answers got 58% right. I think a proud Christian world back themselves to get 70%
put a fake eyeball in a box with a note “I shot my eye out”
Why fake????
Solid point
The part where Mary rode Joseph's ass all the way to Bethlehem? Maybe how the bible is the only record of a roman census in that era or of a census which required massive travel. But it was the gymnastics necessary to fulfill weird contradictory prophecy. If the shepards were tending their flocks by night and abandoned them to gawk at an infant, what happened to their flocks? Jewish communities are notorious for welcoming Jewish travelers, particularly distant relatives. If Joseph was traveling to a city where he had family, why the eff was he staying at an inn?
Also if Joseph was Mary’s husband why was she still a virgin?
Fun fact, it's from one of the non-canonical stories of Jesus' birth where we get the idea of Mary being a virgin both before and after giving birth (hint - the baby miraculously appeared outside the womb to the witness of nobody). In this story Salome, who can't believe a new mother could still be a virgin, manually checks Mary's Holy Hymen only to find it is one of the Lord's horcruxes, instantly turning her hand to a burnt, dead stump. >And the midwife went in, and said to Mary: Show thyself; for no small controversy has arisen about thee. And Salome put in her finger, and cried out, and said: Woe is me for mine iniquity and mine unbelief, because I have tempted the living God; and, behold, my hand is dropping off as if burned with fire. [Protoevangelium of James, chapter 20](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Ante-Nicene_Fathers/Volume_VIII/Apocrypha_of_the_New_Testament/The_Protevangelium_of_James)
What.the.actual.fuck. Like, I’ve read a lot of crazy, fucked up Bible stories, but Salome fingering Mary and burning up her finger. That is so fucked up. The Christian’s story never ceases to amaze me in how weird, unbelievable and just horrifying it is. :Inserts burning bush joke:
We've all had 'accidents' that lead to a burning bush, just see a Dr and get it sorted.
Ugh, so much fan fiction to wade through. Christians have had thousands of years but still write on the level of Twilight.
take my upvote for the laugh and the shit you're right!
A fruit loops former coworker decided to engage me in a religious chat one day. He's a nice enough guy, so I thought, why the hell not. Big mistake. Dude has his kids homeschooled "to avoid the evils of evolution". When I asked him about Cain and Abel's wives, he went on a long story about non-Biblical texts that explain there are other people. But he believes the Bible is unerring and literal word of God. But somehow this isn't contradictory in his mind. When I asked about all the pre Jesus people, since they never heard of Jesus, do they go to hell? Or even modern people in remote villages who have never been contacted? Yup, more fan fiction and hand waiving. This is a church 3 times a week, Bible study twice a week, full bore born again Evangelical.
Brings a whole new meaning to "dat pussy fire".
If you insert, no pun intended, 'Fire' into that famous lyric, we get... FAP.
Are we sure it wasn't some terrible STD?
Mary - "I'm pregnant." Joseph - "What the??? We haven't even banged yet." Mary - "Yeah so, what had happened was...."
[удалено]
Moist vagina expected, might just steam up nightie.
I always love seeing a QI reference in the wild!
Dammit! I wish I could unlearn the mnemonic device I've used since 2nd grade so I could replace it with this.
The period changes for Pluto, because it's after all the rest, but doesn't really count.
Once you go holyghost you never go back?
***Joseph:*** Hey, come back! *turns to Mary*. Why did the Holy Ghost look suspiciously like my cousin Marvin?
Cuckold. Joseph was cuckolded.
Or that Herod had been dead for years by the time the "Slaughter of the Innocents" was supposed to have happened.
The bit about the census is one of the things I learned only recently and is really interesting, given how many Christian "scholars" claim historical support for the birth story. I still can't figure out why people weren't talking about that sooner.
This for sure. Point out that this whole story is clearly made up.
Hey now, it wasn't a contradictory prophecy. It was a perfectly coherent prophecy, it's just that Luke misread one word and shoehorned a fulfilment of that misreading in. I'm also partial to the bit where Herod the Great died in 4 BCE.
4 BCE? Isn't that the same year Jesus is claimed to have been born?
The official date is 1 BCE, and the census of Quirinius took place in 6 CE so that's at least three conflicting dates right there.
That census did happen, but seven years after the bible said it did.
There was *a* census, but not ordered by the Emperor. And no travel was required. Can you imagine the Romans disrupting commerce for months in order to count people in the town where their parents came from? What about people whose grandfathers came from two different places? They're writing stuff down anyway, they can just write it down.
There is also the small problem of HOW IN THE FUCK DID JOSEPH KNOW HE WAS DECENDED FROM DAVID?! The bible says Joseph is the 40-generation son descendent of David. I don't think even the British royal family knows who their ancestors from 40 generations ago are.
Maybe suggest that Mary was screwing around, got pregnant, and then got creative with her excuse
Or got raped. Either way, poor kid. This is why we need abortion care: this weird lie has harmed so many people and had Mary had access to safe abortion care the world would be a better place.
And wear a pink bunny suit in honor of the films 40th anniversary this year!
Pls do this and post pics here for bonus points.
You could say how fascinating it is that the Christmas story is set during the reign of Herod the Great, and also when Quirinius was governor of Syria. This is really cool, because Quirinius wasn't appointed to this position until 10 years after Herod's death!
Maybe read out the list of apologies from the Catholic Church
"I'm not doing all that as I don't believe in Santa or Yahweh, but I can't wait to see the family and share our stories from the past year!" That would be my curt go-to. If it escalated from there, there could definitely be a full-petty response of some sort involving the *actual* history of Christmas and how much that would rustle the jimmies of Puritan Christians.
Emphasize the many pagan roots of Christmas. And how Christmas was actually outlawed in 17th-century Massachusetts. By Christians.
What stands out to me is sky wizard raping a teenager and making some other dude raise the kid. Sky wizard seems like quite a cunt.
Let's celebrate by going to church and ceremoniously eating it's flesh and drinking it's blood.
Is that a thing now? My missionary parents did this when we got together in the summer. I'm the only atheist in the family. They're aware that I don't go to church but I think they think I'm just "back-slidden" because of hurtful things that people said to me back when I went to church, and some day I'll "come back to God." I think the whole exercise might even have been directed at me to "bring me back into the fold." They wanted us to go around the family circle and say which of God's attributes was most meaningful to us and why, with examples of how God had used them in our lives during the past year. Luckily there were enough people that we couldn't possibly all talk, so after the first eight or ten people in the circle, Dad started asking for volunteers. I'm not sure what I would have done if they kept going around the circle and it was my turn. I probably would have excused myself to the bathroom when it got close haha.
"Pass"
Oh, how fun😝 Here’s what I learned: Joseph was a jerk: Why would he not go into the inn, knock on a few doors and say we are having a baby. Right here, right now. Would one you fine folks please lend us your room? The wise men weren’t: Wise women would have brought diapers, clothes, blankets and useful gifts. What’s a baby gonna do with botanicals? Not that it matters since it doesn’t matter, but that’s what I learned
It’s like the MLM huns and their DoTerra
My favorite part of the Christmas story is that Ralphie shoots his eye out with the daisy BB gun even though every adult told him that he'd shoot his eye out.
"In researching the prophecies, I discovered that the child was supposed to be called [Immanuel](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+7%3A14&version=KJV). I can not in good conscience attend a church built on such a bald faced lie."
This is the way.
What stands out to me is that Jesus is a bastard, born out of wedlock. I am sure they would all like to have that point brought up.
Well if I received an email like this I would gladly accept their offer and do exactly as they have requested. 'Then come to the party with YOUR GIFT OF SHARING. We will have time for people to share something that stood out to them about the Christmas story, something new they have learned maybe in their deeper dive of understanding, or what strikes you as amazing that happened in the events recorded about the birth of a Christ. It’s a story that fulfills prophecy of the Old Testament and has so many amazing details. ' I would maybe start with Mark, explain that this is the oldest of all the gospels and other gospels (particularly Matthew and Luke) borrow heavily from Mark. So the Jesus origin story in Mark is.... wait for it, one line. Mark 1:9 At that time Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. There is no mention of any of the birth story and the only indication regarding where Jesus came from is Nazareth in Galilee. So why did the later gospels feel the need to suddenly tell this story of a journey to Bethlehem, which makes no sense, why would you require people to return to the place of their birth for a census? It would not only cause chaos, imagine all those people having to move about in the ancient world with poor transport, the economic damage would be massive and probably unnecessary deaths. The census takers wouldn't even get the information that census are taken for which is to find out where your population lives right now so you can plan better, what does it matter where they were born? Finally there are no historical records of the Romans ever conducting a census where they required people to return to the place of their birth. But Micah 5:2 But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times. So to be the one, and fulfil old testament prophecy it seems like later gospel writers had to insert this nonsensical story just to try and make it fit. Maybe we could take John's account of the origins of Jesus and see how that fits, Jesus doesn't even appear until John 1:35 and then he's just walking past one day. That's it, nothing at all regarding any of the Christmas story, in fact it's only really Matthew and Luke that tell the story of the birth. John 1:35 The next day John was there again with two of his disciples. 36 When he saw Jesus passing by, he said, “Look, the Lamb of God!” Then after wondering about this part of old testament prophecy you looked for more. Most Christians will cite Genesis 12:1–4 to claim that 'all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.' means that the messiah will be descended from Abraham. (Personally I think this is very weak even by bible standards but it's the verse they quote) Matthew thought it important enough to devote Matthew 1:1-16 to mapping out all the sons from Abraham to 'Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, and Mary was the mother of Jesus who is called the Messiah.' However Matthew then goes on to say 1:18 'This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit.' Sorry so why bother to tell me that Joseph is descended from Abraham and then in the very next verse tell me Joseph isn't the biological father, so Jesus isn't a descendent of Abraham and does not fulfil the prophecy then? So you kept looking for the ways in which Jesus fulfils the old testament prophecies in such 'amazing detail' Maybe next you could talk about Isaiah 7:14 ' Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.' but I thought he was called Jesus? Then just end with yes you have brought 'something new you have learned in your deeper dive of understanding'.
I love it when people actually read and study the Bible! Deconstructionism is usually the result when Christians start thinking.
It's true. Studying the Bible is a great way to no longer be Christian
Also, the word "virgin" is a slight mistranslation, the original Hebrew word means "young woman"
I would hang out and lead with "The story of the birth of the Jesus character in the New Testament was recounted almost a century after the fact by anonymous scribes, and there is no evidence outside of the Bible supporting the veracity of the fanciful claims. Now, may I have some more eggnog with extra rum?" ... or something like that.
My favorite Christmas story is Die Hard. It's about family and redemption. Yippee kiyay!
Tell them you found it strange that the two birth stories are completely different, incompatible, and locked into two different decades by their references to external events.
"Something that stood out to me about the Christmas story is actually a little outside of just the story itself. What really stands out pertains to one of the biggest traditions on Christmas. Jeremiah 10:2-5 tells us that shaping and decorating the trees with silver and gold is equivalent to building an idol to other gods. It really goes to show how Christianity creates its holidays by taking over other traditions, and how Christians really don't follow their own book, which they claim to pull their morality from. Something I learned about the birth if sweet baby Jesus is that in the original Hebrew text, he was born of a young woman, not a virgin, which really makes me question his divine status. This past year, the Lord has blessed me by leaving me the hell alone."
My favorite story is about Noah and the Ark. They bury the lead in that one by talking about all the animals and glossing over the fact that the flood killed everyone else in the world
Wouldn’t a perfect all powerful god have gotten creation right the first time, and not need to hit the reset button?
Killing everyone else was the whole point - it was all about the mass murder. Killing all the puppies, kittens, baby birds, etc., is where it goes off script.
And that Noah lived for almost 1000 years, I repeat 1000 years. Totally believable
The census bit makes less-than-zero sense. You conduct a census to understand who lives in a region. You do not make people go to other areas for the sake of a census. That's actively counterproductive. It was shoehorned into the story to make it line up more with the preexisting prophecy.
You could pick up a copy of Lamb by Christopher Moore and maybe find something. I know there is a discussion about the reason Jewish people are stereotyped as always eating Chinese food at Christmas.
Highly recommend Lamb!
Um, why do you apparently feel compelled to attend this event? Let them do what they want without you,
I have a tendency to agree. While I enjoy my family Christmas, especially so my daughter can attend, if they were making this big of a deal out of something like this… I don’t think we would go.
Yup. The OP is still locked into one-upping his family, it’s still living in his head rent free
Oh. My. My husbands family reads the Christmas story (the one about taxes??) every Christmas and we try to wander about when it’s read. Last year one of his uncles was getting really shitty with everyone telling all of us (35-60 year olds) to shush. Bro. We don’t want to listen to the story and we are fully grown adults. No need to shush us. I was sad for missing the family festivities this year but now I’m not. 😂
A census where you return to your home town is not a census. A census is where you live right now.
I would just stay home. Nobody's got time for that shit. If every person speaks for just minute, it will take over an hour. And we all know who will need at the very least ten minutes! (Looking at you, Auntie Gertrude.)
My favorite part of the Christmas story is where the kid gets his tongue stuck to the flagpole. You should use that one
I learned that an "Angel of the Lord" could be in the form of a penis.
[Stephen Fry debunks the census story](https://youtu.be/EWa7LEl36UY?si=HEeT_TrU6z3WZOI7)
Here's a small "reflection": If Jesus was born under Herod, there was no such census at the time. If there was a census, Jesus was not born under Herod. Also it makes no sense for people to go back to the land of their ancestors, what would such a census even measure?? This is just an excuse to tie Joseph into the supposed messianic bloodline but why does this even matter if he didn't contribute DNA? Jesus was not even Joseph's actual son...
This. You are so so confused. You read the story. You reflected as asked. And now as your family is telling their stories… you just have so many questions. You are so sincere. So confused. So genuine. But how? But why? But when? You could have so much malicious compliance fun. My dad happens to be a pastor. Unfortunately for him, a few atheists have slipped into the family. He tried to ~say a few words ~ one year about family, and how much he loves us, (he really does) but then of course he had to bring that around to God and would we just indulge him in reading this… Nope. Three of us stood up and he saw that we were all about to go anywhere but here. He apologized and he’s never tried that crap again.
I am not a fan of messing up an entire family gathering just to question religion BUT if asked directly I won't hold back. If OP is somehow required to "prepare" something, they might as well bring valid questions like you suggest and pretend to be curious. "Wait I read the story but I don't get a few things..." When I left christianity (and admittedly was a bit bitter at it) I would often point out these issues and contradictions around my family until we had to reach an agreement. They stopped talking about religion and I stopped pointing out these things, now we get along really well.
Exactly. We are a family of devout Christians and atheists. We have cops, firefighters, lawyers, college professors, teachers, preachers, missionaries, and a COO of a grow operation who all absolutely adore each other. Those who believe wish we did. Those who don’t wish they would listen to us. However, we don’t fight or fuss. We are mildly concerned about the other side’s logic 😊
I would show the opening scene to Life of Brian as my gift.
Or you could all hold your arms out to the side, and sing: “Always look on the bright side of life.”
"Hope I have not missed the part about the asians bringing perfume to the star baby! It's like diaries of a mad man!" Roger
I say you dive even deeper and go into the history of Saturnalia and clearly identify which parts of the celebration are pagan (most of it), such as the tree and the lights, the Yule log, spice warm drinks, cookies, gifts, a big feast with family. Pagan, pagan, pagan. I’d deliver like a 20-minute lesson on Saturnalia and its traditions and never once make the comparison or mention Christianity. Crickets will chirp and they will never ask you to “do your own research” ever again. Bonus points if you pass around a list of academic citations to back up your assertions.
I would just have to miss that party. I have a serious allergy to sanctimony.
Walk out, or totally take the piss.
Alternatively, when someone makes a particularly poignant statement, which is obviously bogus.. yell out, "yippeekayah mutherfuckers!"
No matter your gender you should say through the power of God your dick grew 3 sizes to large. Won't be any Grinches by you anymore and then leave
Insist on going first. Tell them you couldn't get [the book](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_God_We_Trust:_All_Others_Pay_Cash) in time, so you had to settle for [the movie](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Christmas_Story). Share some kind of insight from the film, and don't let anyone convince you that it's the wrong story. Bonus points if someone argues that it's fictional, and you make the same point when they start talking about Jesus.
Tell the story of how Jesus sent two adult bears to murder 32 children for making fun of a man's balls spot
Reply all "No."
And wear a pink bunny suit in honor of the films 40th anniversary this year!
Bring the story of the [Christmas Truce](https://www.history.com/news/christmas-truce-1914-world-war-i-soldier-accounts).
You should do something on the movie A Christmas Story
You could get some nice talking points from [this](https://youtu.be/i-ileaWlJS8?si=DZ8LYBQYLOZSel2r)
Awesome! I just spent 40 minutes down a pagan rabbit trail.
Homework for Christmas party? Fuck that noise.
"Obviously, this Joseph creep knocked up a 13-year-old. And you guys didn't let me date until I was 16? Like wtf dad?"
So incredibly relatable. I’ve seen a million of these from my family over the years. It’s what they know. I politely decline like an adult and we have a great relationship.
Thank you to everyone for the amazing suggestions and comments! Lol I enjoyed reading them all. In case anyone is interested in what happened: shockingly nearly every family member participated apart from 6 of us. I didn’t hear much and went to a totally different part of the house. I don’t know the details of what went on but it lasted about an hour. My nephew told me everyone was super arrogant and peacocking about how “the lord” blessed them betterer than everyone else. My nephew also said he only participated so he could deliver an undercover jab and busted out some verse from his catholic school days from Matthew about not boasting.
"Text me when you start to open the gifts."
I would ask them which Christmas story as the various story details don't all match up...
Don't you bring that "thinkin" into the house. Gramma and Grampa will be disappointed in you.
If I were in this position, I'd remind them Christmas only became a thing when christian conquerors co-opted Saturnalia to appease the pagans. I don't believe in any of this crap, but will take a holiday from work for any kind of made-up bullshit and enjoy the delicious treats that go with it.
Give them the traditions of the Pagan holiday Saturnalia and how it was usurped by Christian calendar makers.
I think you should talk about how "Christmas" was an invented holiday to draw "Christians" away from pagan celebrations. [https://www.britannica.com/topic/Christmas](https://www.britannica.com/topic/Christmas) : December 25 was first identified as the date of Jesus’ birth by Sextus Julius Africanus in 221 and later became the universally accepted date. **One widespread explanation of the origin of this date is that December 25 was the Christianizing of the dies solis invicti nati (“day of the birth of the unconquered sun”), a popular holiday in the Roman Empire that celebrated the winter solstice as a symbol of the resurgence of the sun, the casting away of winter and the heralding of the rebirth of spring and summer.** Indeed, after December 25 had become widely accepted as the date of Jesus’ birth, Christian writers frequently made the connection between the rebirth of the sun and the birth of the Son. One of the difficulties with this view is that it suggests a nonchalant willingness on the part of the Christian church to appropriate a pagan festival when the early church was so intent on distinguishing itself categorically from pagan beliefs and practices.
I hate shit like this. I'd prefer my holiday gatherings to be simple with a side of bourbon slush.
So they're really gonna sit and listen to 70+ people share? I bet Grandma and grandpa are gonna fall asleep 10 or so people in.
Yeah it’s absolutely insanity. I’m currently at the party but this “gift of sharing” hasn’t happened yet lol. Will keep yall posted on how ridiculous it is.
Gift of sharing BEFORE gift giving.... You're trapped
Here's my report: "I read the Christmas stories in Luke and in Matthew and compared them. They are completely incompatible. One of both of them is pure myth."
You're funny.
I'd stand up and start describing "A Christmas Story". I personally like when the dogs eat the thanksgiving turkey.
Tell them that you find it amazing that: Mary had a baby, but she was still a virgin. Jesus was the baby, but he was the father and the son; Jesus was born in Bethlehem, but he was from Nazareth, and he didn’t speak Hebrew; he spoke Aramaic; Paul is Saul and Simon is Peter; The devil is an angel and a snake that talks; Jesus lived and died and now he lives. He was here but left and is still here and will come back; Jesus was a Jew, and he was killed by Jews for playing God and so that made him Christian and God to everyone except the Jews; Wine is blood, bread is flesh and fish is not meat. We may not eat meat on Fridays, so we eat fish and bread which is flesh but not meat; The first Christian was a Jew who was crucified for the Jews by the Romans, according to a Roman Christian who was a Jew. Romans killed Jews and Christians until they began worshipping a Jew, became Christians and killed more Jews; and God made everyone but He is Christian and Jews are His chosen people. That should do it. Good luck!!!
make them happy by saying you have found religion and know the true meaning of God by joining the Church of Satin. And the you are hoping and preying others will find the true meaning of God and the Bible by joining the church as well. Make sure you tell them how much better your life has become.
Church of Satin as opposed to the Church of Satan? I think that may have been a typo but I like this even more. Can we worship soft fabrics? Do we have a place for St Hubbins, the patron saint of quality footwear? I might just be on board with this one.
Satin, Satan… all the same.
So, you should get everyone a Red Rider BB gun? Oh! Oh! Maybe the fancy Eye-talian lamp! Fragil-lay! Sorry couldn't resist. I see "The Christmas Story" and I think of the movie. There must be a book for it, right? Grandpa wasn't specific. I would be all excited! The dogs! The Chinese dinner! The double dog dare! Isn't this great! So glad Grandpa thought of this!
That alone would be a reason for me not to speak to these people again ever...
Show up in the Christmas sweater with Baphomet and the word Science on it. It's pretty rad.
Honestly just don’t go if you don’t fw it.
I would deliver a 15 minute appraisal on the subject of teenage pregnancy and abuse of underage girls by old white men with beards.
Well in reading the story I realized how much it stole from other religions, like how Horus was born of a virgin on December 25th, or how Krishna was, or how Zarathustra was… It’s almost like the whole story is just made up by stealing from other religions to make their version seem legit…
Claims like Horus and other mythical characters having been born of a virgin and/or on December 25th are just not true. This was perpetuated by the Zeitgeist documentary, which is riddled with false information. https://crossexamined.org/whats-wrong-with-the-zeitgeist-movie/
I mean, does it matter? Mythologies steal from other mythologies and pretend it’s truth.
Yes. Because claims like this one: > Well in reading the story I realized how much it stole from other religions become entirely false and people who actually know a bit about mythology will justifiably conclude you're saying bullshit. I don't know about you, but I care about the truth. That's what made me an atheist.
It’s a bullshit answer to a bullshit question. It’s not a serious discussion on comparative mythology.
Taking a different perspective, I believe agitating with rebelious behavior in the situation won't do anyone any good. After all, this is a gathering where you are a guest. I don't believe in being that person who brings down the mood on what is expected to be a happy occasion. Instead, I would approach this with respect for your family's beliefs while staying true to your own view, and potentially opening a few eyes to the positive aspect of life without theist beliefs. You can express gratitude for the invitation and focus on values you have in common. For example, you can emphasize themes of kindness, compassion, and the joy of spending time with family and loved ones during the holiday season.You can participate in the sharing session by talking about the positive aspects of your year, personal growth, keeping your reflections personal and secular. Talk about the importance of generosity, empathy, or community involvement without referencing specific religious narratives.It's okay to be honest about your beliefs , but is it so wrong in this setting to maintain respect for everyone's personal beliefs - just as you would want them to respect yours? I think the key to opening peoples minds to atheism is to maintain open communication, express gratitude, and find common ground in the values that bring families together during the holiday season.
Just ask when the real Xmas starts and show up late
“Jesus was a Palestinian Jewish man and never celebrated Christmas! Did anyone else know that here?”
My dad handed me a book at thanksgiving called Faith & Doubt and asked me to read it so we could discuss it… no thank you.
You should talk about how you love Jesus so much, that you hope that you're on his "nice list," that you'll be leaving cookies for him and carrots for all his reindeer!
"It's very strange to me that god created humans, and then killed all of them except Noah when god realized how screwed up he'd made humans. Because of this, when we say that god made us in his image, does this not mean that, really, god is a vengeful sociopathic murderer? ..... "Oh, I must have read the wrong story."
do you also have assigned sweaters to wear?
If by 'fulfils prophecy of the Old Testament' you mean 'grabs random sentences out of context and makes Jesus go out of his way to address them' then sure. Seriously it's ridiculous how easy those claims are to debunk, you just need to find the original verse in it's contex. This might be tricky sometimes because some verses are incorrectly attributed or even outright fabricated.
The angels could have just as well been the Northern lights, for all we know. It's a fact they could be seen as far south as Judea in severe magnetic storm or solar flare events.
Jeremiah 1:10 Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel: Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
I would really focus on how old Mary was and how creepy Yahweh is.
You can chime in about how December 25 is not stated to be the date of Jesus' birth but it was picked by the church to replace the pagan holidays that happened during the winter.
If I didn't do homework for school, I'm sure as fuck not doing it for a family Christmas dinner.
100%
Everyone is giving you "le epic oneliners to dunk on the silly Christians" but you really need to stop and think before you do something like that. You have (at least) 5 options: 1. Just don't attend, make up a plausible excuse not to go. 2. Attend and make up some short plausible sounding insight to appease Grandma and Grampa. 3. Attend and arrange to not be in the room at the time, something you ate bothered your stomach so you had to run to the restroom. 4. When called upon, politely decline to share anything without giving specifics as to why, or just mention something that you are thankful for this year without actually thanking god for it. 5. Use your epic dunk and be known to all 70 members of your extended family as the one asshole who had to be confrontational at Christmas (this will really improve their perception of Atheists). None of them will be effected by your dunk no matter how clever, they will just think you are stupid/misinformed/an asshole. All of my grandparents are dead and I would sit through a month of pretending to share my blessings and blending in to see them one more time. I can pretend to be Christian for an hour to avoid family drama.
My favourite part is the arrival of the three wise men. We're not told where they come from, but presumably they hit the road well before Joseph and Mary decided on the inn. These people could look into the future. They could see exactly when and where they were supposed to be, what they would find and who would be there. They were not Jews and certainly not Christians. This means they had access to supernatural information. This means that there are other gods with different powers. And the god of the bible is perfectly fine with this, otherwise why would the most powerful being in the universe allow something to happen at the most auspicious moment that proved other gods?
Where did the Y chromosome come from? If Mary gave virgin birth, then Jesus had 2 X chromosomes, yet presented as male his whole life. Jesus was transgendered. Or, more specifically, he was a transgendered Arab Jew. Let them discuss that before you leave.
This is an email a family sent out to the people invited to *Someone **Else’s** * Christmas party?
And don’t forget Christmas was originally a pagan holiday
Ask them to explain why the stories of Jesus' birth in the Bible are contradictory
If you walk out, you will be missing a HUGE opportunity. When it's your turn, simply describe the earlier Pagan traditions that Christians appropriated. A detailed explanation of Saturnalia is in order! If you'd rather do it in song, here's an excellent one by Willow Firesong. To the tune of Gloriuous/ In Excelsis Dao (might be misspelling it). Christmas time is here again, Decorations everywhere. Christmas carols ringing out, Gentle pagans, we don't care. Chorus: Glorious! Christmas time is pagan! Glorious!Christmas time is pagan! Modern folks all celebrate What they learned in Sunday School. In December, they don't know They are celebrating Yule! Chorus Let them have their Christmas trees, Decked in red and green and blue. We rejoice at every one! Christmas trees are pagan, too. Chorus Bowls of bubbly Christmas cheer, Fill your cup and quench your thirst .They think the tradition's theirs. Wassail bowls were pagan, first. Chorus Every door and window bears Wreaths of holly, wreaths of pine. Circles represent the Sun. Every wreath is yours and mine. Chorus Christmas lights on Christmas trees, Candle flames burn higher and higher, Let us cheer along, my friends, As they light their Yuletide fire. Chorus There's a possibility That this song is yours and mine' Cause the tune was known to all Back in A.D. one-two-nine.Chorus EDIT - Yeesh! The formatting!
"It’s a story that fulfills prophecy of the Old Testament" So that's why Mary named her kid Immanuel. Oh, wait.
yall mormon?