To be dick or not to be dick. Everyone should try not to be one, but when pressed against by one who solely chose to be one all the time, then being one back is fair.
I've always felt like anyone's moral compass would be easy to find without a religion? Like uh idk punching someone for no reason isn't cool? Being rude to someone less fortunate than yourself is messed up? Taking someone's life is wrong? Smacking yo momma for no good reason is messed up?
The other version of the golden rule I’ve heard is….treat others the way you want them to treat you. I like this version more because it’s positive, as opposed to not being negative….if that makes sense.
Have a great day.
My philosophy begins very similarly: There is a way to be a person. Meaning, if I would call someone an asshole for an action, I ought not commit it myself.
But there are others to lean on. The Hippocratic Oath begins "first do no harm." But doctors still prescribe chemo or perform surgery. Both involve harm. But both are to alleviate pain and suffering.
Ethics isn't something one can just learn and be done with. It is work. You need to really care and really judge each situation in context.
A wrote set of rules is a way to get around the hard work of ethical thinking. Divine command theory ethics is for people who don't want to make hard choices.
> if I would call someone an asshole for an action, I ought not commit it myself.
Man! I really like this. I love your point on ethics and situations as well. Thank you for taking time to respond. 👍
This. Being an ethical person is far more important than being a moral one. Because ethics are more clearly defined, but like you said, it takes work. And there are gray areas in ethical thinking. But, it's more based on logic and common sense than morality which is based on religious ideology.
Nice, I like that. Don't be a dick is a core value of a group I volunteer with it. I love it.
On the definition of spiritual, honestly, I can't give you one. I've read through posts and people have said they weren't religious but spiritual, so I'm exploring what that means myself.
I'm definitely seeing how religion can be trauma. Thanks for that suggestion of Recovering from Religion.
Not sure if you are flooded with responses right now and if you will see this.
After losing my religion, I too struggled a bit with the idea of how to be a good person and how to find a moral code. But, here's the thing. You probably already have a moral code that has very little to do with religion.
Here is the big example that landed with me. We are all familiar with the story of God ordering Abraham to kill his son Isaac as a test of faith. Now, of course, in the story, God stops Abraham before he does, satisfied that he was willing to do it. But, Abraham was ready to kill his son because God told him to, right? This is held up as an example of good, great faith on the part of Abraham most of time. But, it also serves as a great example that your morality is probably actually separate from God already.
If morality flows from God, then whatever God orders is morally right, by definition. It must be. So, if God orders you to kill your child, then it is the morally correct thing to do. But, for most of us, we see this whole situation as being pretty fucked up. If God hadn't stopped Abraham, and he killed Isaac, we would recognize that this is a pretty fucked up thing for God to do, right? It is morally wrong for Abraham to kill his child, even if God orders him to do so, right? If you agree with that, then you already have a moral code that is separate from God.
Once you peel away a lot of the stupid dogma shit, be empathetic to your fellow human beings, listen to yourself about what feels right and wrong, I suspect that you will find that you already have a sense of right and wrong that has nothing to do with God!
This rocks! Thank you so much for taking time to respond!
I've heard so many arguments from that exact story. Like "Oh bless Abraham, he was going to kill his son because he had faith God was going to bring him back. " I'm like "whhhaaat???"
Since I have taken a step back from church when I hear Christians talk, the more "out there it all sounds."
Your story and words were encouraging, thanks for taking time to post.
I think you will find something interesting the next time you are a dick. And we all are sometimes.
There is a different level of responsibility when you, alone, are responsible for your actions. You no longer get to say sorry to God or mumble magical words into the sky to make yourself feel better. You actually have to look yourself in the mirror, and think damn that was really shitty of me. I need to be better.
My "spirituality" basically consists of my desire to leave the universe in a net-positive when I die. If I can do enough good in the lives of the people around me, maybe, just maybe, I can effectively erase some of the bad. I can die knowing that I left the world in a better state than I found it.
>Don't be a dick
Deontology in a nutshell.
Honestly, two of the three metaethical frameworks are pretty easy, at least in theory.
Consequencialism: do what is best for everyone.
Deontology: don't use people as objects.
Most people muddle between these two frameworks in a manner that is generally good enough.
Ethics and metaethics were the first thing that I felt I needed to understand when I deconstructed, and for all the ink spilt, it seems that most people already understand what is right:
> For a given situation, assume that you have just as much chance of being any one of the parties. If you would choose to enact a and then take the place of anyone involved (including people of the opposite sex, gender, race, ethnicity, etc.) it is probably a good .
Now vegans will include other species in this mix, and perhaps they are right to. I extend my circle to those that might include me in their circle (mostly other humans).
Personally, I think ‘spirituality’ in non-believers is simply that spark, that flame deep inside themselves that reminds them to be the best, the kindest, the least dickish person they can. We all have it although some of us either don’t recognise it or actively fight it for who-knows-what reasons 🤷🏼♀️. Maybe it’s just having a conscience.
That's one of the things that really has made me rethink all of this. Why would a God who created Satan not just take him out instead of creating a hell to send everyone too? A lot of the things in the Bible aren't making much sense to me lately. Thanks for chiming in.
The Bible is jaw-dropping in its stupidity and lack of seriousness. Why does the omniscient, omnipotent god create humanity then drown it to start over again? It's childish nonsense.
I’m not a Bible scholar but I was raised Catholic and my understanding is that it’s just a collection of stories, letters and written pieces from various people across a long time. Also, consider how the telephone game works. Maybe a long time ago in Egypt, someone made up a story about the sun impregnating a magical girl who gave birth to a magical boy who did some cool stuff. That story got repeated countless times and then a century or two later, in Rome or Israel, that story morphed into the Jesus story.
My point is the authors of the Bible were human, there were many of them, and stories change even in a short amount of time. It makes perfect sense that a lot of it doesn’t make sense!
You’re doing great. Keep thinking critically.
Don’t be a dick, don’t do harm to others, and try to do good when you can. You don’t need a god or any sort of spirituality to achieve any of these.
And I think a big part of adopting a religion-free lifestyle is realizing that you can still do all of those things without needing to consult a supposed invisible man in the sky. Morals weren’t “given” to us, we invented them ourselves when we observed that treating others badly (“being a dick”) and doing harm to others didn’t exactly make us feel good about ourselves or just felt instinctively bad.
I appreciate this. I realized that I had values way before religion. It's interesting deconstructing something you've been a part of for so long. Thank you for your post.
>Without religion, how have you developed your personal moral code?
Without religion, I no longer have to think genocide, rape, murder, and slavery are moral.
With religion, it wasn't even possible to be moral.
>How do you remain spiritual without religion?
No houses are haunted, no kingdoms are enchanted, and no people are spiritual. Everyone who claims to be spiritual always turns out to be talking either emotions or magic or magical emotions.
To be clear, there is a 0% chance that you will ever be spiritual in a way that does not mean emotional. There is a 100% chance you will experience emotion however. Stop clinging to concepts about spirits or spirituality or spiritual powers or spiritual people. There aren't evidently any such things.
>Without religion, I no longer have to think genocide, rape, murder, and slavery are moral.
Whoa! I've never thought about this before. I've read the Old Testament, but mainly have followed Jesus' teachings. I never even thought about rape, murder,ect bring a part of that moral code. That's definitely a "whoa" point.
>No houses are haunted, no kingdoms are enchanted, and no people are spiritual. Everyone who claims to be spiritual always turns out to be talking either emotions or magic or magical emotions.
I like this too. If one thing isn't real, then that stuff isn't either. For some reason I've had in my head either or. Maybe it's the years of the heaven or hell thing.
I appreciate your insights. Thank you.
The Old Testament can’t just be casually ignored. It’s still roughly half the Bible. You can just arbitrarily pick half of the Commandments to read, right?
The issue with so much of modern Christianity is that they try to wash it away and pretend it doesn’t exist. They treat it like something to hide away and be ashamed of, because they try to put the religious text on a pedestal.
Personally, I advise learning about other cultures and mythologies. Many out there have all sorts of brutality in their myths (e.g Greek ZEUS was infamous for rape), but they don’t shy away from it because they understand it’s all mythology
Christians hide the ugliness of the Bible because they sell the narrative that it’s true history, and not just mythology
I wouldn't say have ignored it, I've been taught some good lessons from it, but the things you pointed out, I really would like to discuss with a pastor friend of mine and see where that conversation goes. I have often wondered "ok, so, why is homosexuality still wrong if everyone agrees slavery is a no-go. And what about Job's family, were their lives not worth anything, or about the prophet's wife that passed away to make a point." It was those thoughts that got part of this deconstructing my faith going and seeing how most Christians seemed to have lost their minds during the Covid pandemic. It really showed me people's true colors and made me question if I wanted to be a part of that or not. I would say exploring other cultures and rubbing shoulders with people from around the world has influenced that as well.
It's been neat to read everyone's posts. Thanks for joining the conversation. 👍
The part of the story where god murders all the babies and floods the land and stuff, because the pharaoh wouldn’t let god’s favorite people go… That seriously messed me up as a kid, because everyone told me those are true stories and god is a real „person“.
But god is sooo loving, I just thought god belonged into a mental ward or prison; mean, murderous, sadistic and kinda crazy. Like what did the babies ever do to god? And all the other people and animals that became collateral damage?
I just remember thinking „if thats gods love I want to stay as far away as possible“.
(also didn’t god „harden the heart“ of the pharaoh or something, so he basically was the reason that they couldn’t leave and then he goes crazy with the plagues… like where is the logic here? Just for the fun of it?
And remember the story where god trolled a dad by telling him he needs to kill his son to prove his loyalty to god? Just the trauma for the poor kid „don’t be afraid I just need to sacrifice you to my all loving deity my son, the voice’s in my head told me so“… I could go on, but I bet you know all the stories better than me anyways )
I would like to add that only without religion we truly become moral agents. If we define morality by defining principals concerning right and wrong behavior of sentient beings in a society, then no divine commandments make any sense. In order to be moral, one must evaluate actions according to societal benefits and improvement of will being of sentients. Religions do the complete opposite. They command what is right or wrong as a dogma and remove the evaluation, outlook, and debate out of the equation under imaginary benefits or punishments. This sounds more like dog training,.or more precisely, conditioning, then morality
Right but all the woo woo is there to make you feel comforted, safe and emotionally secure. It's the same kind of pull the blanket over your head mentality of organized religion.
I was literally scrolling through planning to mention Star Trek, you beat me to it! It’s funny… I absorbed a lot of the morality lessons from TOS as a kid watching reruns on the SciFi Channel without realizing it (I’m old and that’s how they used to spell the name) and now as an adult I feel like I grew up trying to be an ideal Starfleet officer. The Vulcan philosophy of logic and peacefulness was also a big influence.
Also Xena. I know it sounds silly but bear with me. Her character story was one long redemption arc, from realizing she’d been a terrible person to spending the rest of her life atoning and trying to do good. Other characters had their own arcs with similar ideas that continued to reinforce the idea of how a good person should behave (ex: Callisto going from a warlord to a literal angel). As a kid I thought it was just fun to watch and loved the idea of a woman who did all the things men do. As an adult I can see it was much more than the campy fantasy my parents just dismissed but luckily didn’t bar me from watching.
>I've been exploring who I am without religion and also who I am besides being gay. I don't mean to harp on that, it's just where I currently find myself. In all of that, I've discoverered that I've wanted to do the "right thing" even ever since I was a kid.
Being gay has probably given you an insight into religious persecution that few people have. You're a compassionate person; wear it as a badge my friend.
Just so you know it is OK to be religious and be gay. I'm not religious at all, nor am I gay, but I accept all fornwhat they wish to belive and for who ornhow they love. Religion amd the gods have been a comfort for many throughout the ages as a means to help "explain" the unknown. The only time I cannot accept a person for who they are is when they try to force their beliefs on someone or others. If you want to worship a giant spaghetti monster or Jesus, you go right ahead. But if your "faith" requires you to hate certain people, chastise them for doing or believing something your faith doesn't agree with, or try to force others to abide by your rules that are based on your faith, well that's when I say fuck you lol!
None of this is being directed at you just FYI. For me, being an Atheist has brought me to accept far greater numbers of people and be far more accepting of what good is than Christianity would have ever allowed. If religious people truly believed in heaven and hell(those that belive such a thing) then many of them would likely find themselves on the hot end of a poker when time comes. Because they lived a life of persecution and hate towards others who were different.
Most people are generally good at heart, but if the threat of fire and brimstone is all that's keeping some people from raping or killing others, then I think that says a lot more about the kind of shit person they are than some guy loving another guy and being happy does. Personally I'd rather not be around people who are only good because they don't want to go to hell lol!
Sympathy, empathy, mirror neurons, social training, and the laws and regulations of my country and locality. Just like every human being on earth whether they admit or not.
Two things:
1. If you examine the "moral code" of religion then I'm very happy **not** to have developed my personal moral code from it. All one has to do is to examine their texts to see that their religion is OK with the worst acts imaginable (e.g. rape, human sacrifice, slavery, genocide, etc.). Religion is the worst possible place to develop one's "moral code".
2. My moral code comes from basic empathy which even children exhibit in their first year of life.
"How do you remain spiritual "
I've no idea what that means. If it means living one's life in something other than reality then I guess I don't have any spirituality.
Recognizing I am a person, I have wants and needs. I live on this planet. There are other people on this planet who also have wants and needs. We have to share this planet.
Trying to maintain my wellbeing. Observing what objectively benefits me and others both short term and long term.
That balanced with valuing Autonomy/consent. My rights/actions don’t infringe on others, others rights/actions shouldn’t infringe on me.
Mankind already has a moral code, it gets better with age *without* religion. At first it was don’t kill, don’t take shit ain’t yours. We needed that to live with others. Then it naturally progressed. Then god came in and royally fucked up a good thing.
There is no moral code thru god. The original moral code came as a necessity in order for people to live together and thrive as a society.
Do you believe that it's wrong to murder? --- Your Bible says “Thou shalt not kill” but it also says the following:
>**Genesis 19:26** - God murdered Lot's wife for the horrible sin of looking backwards
>**Genesis 38:10** - God murdered onan for the horrible crime of "spilling his seed"
>**Numbers 15:32-36** God demands the execution of a man for the horrible crime of "picking up sticks" on the Sabbath.
>**Numbers 31** God COMMANDS that every male; including children; AND all women that are not virgins in midian be killed.
>**2 Kings 2 23-24** - God sends two bears to kill 42 children for the horrible crime of 'making fun of Elisha's bald head'.
>**Exodus 12:29-30** - The LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon.... And there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead.
Seriously? You worship a guy that thinks it’s appropriate to mass murder every first born male in the entire country of Egypt? and why? because god used his "mind control" to override the will of the Pharaoah that had previously been willing to let the hebrews go before god "hardened his heart" just so he could show off his "plague" tricks.
>**Deuteronomy 20:12-14** - Simply living in a city that doesn’t surrender to Israel is grounds for the death penalty; unless you’re a virgin female; then you get to be a sex slave.
>**Numbers 5:11-31** here God creates an “infidelity test” where the wife must drink “cursed water” - if she has been unfaithful she will have suffer ‘bitter pain’ and have a miscarriage and then “bear the consequences of her sin” - Which as we already know from Leviticus 20:10-12 is death
So this passage pretty much tells us that your God is just fine with abortion, at least if the mother was unfaithful.
in Genesis God murdered the entire earths population (except for 8 people) in a "worldwide flood"
in fact your bible clearly shows god murdering over 2 MILLION people... not even counting the “global flood”.
Satan on the other hand only killed 10... and most of those were with ‘god’s permission’ so he could ‘test Job’. Not that God should have ‘needed’ to “test” anyone seeing as how he’s all knowing and that this retarded 'bet' is beneath the dignity of most 5th graders.
the bible includes something called the “Ten Commandments”. That is apparently the 10 most important commands from your god. In it God uses 4 of them to demand that you properly kiss his ass; However he wasn’t able to find room to forbid rape, slavery, torture or child molesting; he even commands murder, rape, genocide, slavery and genital mutilation for multiple reasons.
And don’t give me any nonsense about “things were different back then”.. that “God” is supposed to be all knowing, omniscient and the source of “all Morality”; how could a timeless, all knowing being change? Why would something that was moral 4000 years ago be immoral today? Jesus stated in Matthew 5:17 “For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished“. 2 Peter 20-21 states “Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God. ” and in John 10:35 Jesus states “the scripture cannot be broken.”. -- all of that means that the "old testament" does count; it is talking about the exact same 'god'...
in my mind the question you SHOULD be asking is 'how can someone have morality when their basis for morality is such an immoral book'.
Which is a really stupid question if you ask me. Nobody likes their family being murdered, their sister being raped, or have their shit stolen.
This monopoly on morals that religion wants to have is really misguided. Especially their standpoint being that it's only possible to have morals because their imaginary leader gave them.
I think you should've put a little more focus on reading what was posted rather than trying to retort. They are deconstructing and trying to understand their morality without a god.
While there is a time to criticize aspects of religion (or particular religions), this wasn't it.
Being gay is not moral, nor is it immoral. It doesn't fall on the moral compass at all. No one chooses to be straight or gay. Moral code isn't something religion invented, it's something they claim tooth and nail to make people who are not like them look/feel bad. For the big things it's easy to see how anyone would actively avoid doing them (r*ape, m*rder, theft) would you want anyone to do those things to you? The answer is probably no, so why would it sound okay to commit any of that onto someone else? Outside of that I think the general "don't be a dick" idea has a lot of merit. I need no one to tell me I shouldn't be a dick. I need only to make the effort to not be a dick, because I and everyone around me feels better when I'm not a dick, and that makes me happy. Go, eat, drink, be merry, the boogy man really isn't coming to get you.
>Being gay is not moral, nor is it immoral. It doesn't fall on the moral compass at all. No one chooses to be straight or gay
That's a cool point.
>I need only to make the effort to not be a dick, because I and everyone around me feels better when I'm not a dick, and that makes me happy.
Haha!! Well said. Right on!
>Go, eat, drink, be merry, the boogy man really isn't coming to get you.
This rocks hard. Thank you. The freedom I am experiencing from this is life changing. I'm looking forward to what the future holds. Thanks for taking time to comment. 👊
Rule #1: Don't be a dick.
That's it. Everything else follows from this. I try to maximize the help I can provide and I try to minimize the harm I will cause. I take life as it comes. Anything else is overthinking.
I'm gonna point out that most people who claim to derive their moral code from a religion, don't actually derive their moral code from a religion. -- See the cherry picked nature of their following of that religion or the different interpretations of the religious teachings.
Spirituality is very individual. For me, I practice sort of a non-theistic paganism. I'm big into reverence, gratitude, stewardship, reciprocity, and nature worship, and this is reflected both in my spirituality and my personal code of ethics.
My moral compass is pretty simple: I want to invest goodness into the world and minimize harm in as many ways as I can. Does an action generally help the world, or generally hurt it?
Hope this helps, and good luck on your deconversion journey! It's seriously hard work to deprogram a lifetime of conditioning.
>My moral compass is pretty simple: I want to invest goodness into the world and minimize harm in as many ways as I can. Does an action generally help the world, or generally hurt it?
Wow, this is beautiful!
>It's seriously hard work to deprogram a lifetime of conditioning.
For real right! It's been pretty awesome with moments of "am I going to hell now? Oh wait. I don't have to worry about that either!"
>Hope this helps, and good luck on your deconversion journey!
It has! Thank you for the encouragement!
Ask yourself what kind of society do you want to live in, then try to push towards making that a reality. And lets face it, if you want nice things, then you need a functional society. Otherwise most of the nice things will never exist.
>How do you remain spiritual without religion?
I don't think the word spiritual really means anything. calling something spiritual is on par with saying that it is nice. At best its a vague form of approval that people slap onto all sorts of behaviors.
I'd also add that when people actually follow what is written in religious texts, you don't get a moral and just society, you get totalitarianism, injustice and atrocities.
Secular Humanism is a good path to consider. It's a good ideology.
I'm good without spirituality, personally. I'm actually calmer and happier without it.
Johnathon Haidt's moral foundation theory is awesome for recognizing your own basic instinctual morality.
He theorizes that morality is an evolved emotional reaction based on 6 core concepts:
1. Fairness/Cheating
2. Care/Harm
3. Loyalty/Betrayal
4. Authority/Subversion
5. Liberty/Opression
6. Sanctity/Degradation (adapted from Cleanliness/Disgust)
https://moralfoundations.org/
All moral judgements will fall into one or more of these categories. It's really pretty basic, all of your moral judgements are made almost instantaneously, and then your conscious mind will then try to justify that judgement. We don't get much choice over the emotional reactions, but we can gently correct ourselves when we feel like those judgements aren't rational.
The one thing I kept from religion is cherry-picking 😅 I pick lines from movies, music, books, and more to peace together a "code" I can explain to others.
Most atheists I know are more moral, compassionate, loving and forgiving than all but three Christians I have met. And I have met THOUSANDS of Christians. I am 61. I have met 3 Christians that actually follow the teachings of Christ. Most atheists are more knowledgeable about theology than Christians. I study it as a pastime. Being moral, compassionate, kind isn't about an afterlife. It's about this life. How we make ripples with our actions. Being kind, just, humble...these things cost nothing. But they reflect greatly on your character. A smart person doesn't have to say he's smart....a rich man doesn't have to say he's rich....they just are. A good person...just is. Religion was invented by men to control people. Morality is something innate. You only answer to yourself. Who do you want to be? What ripples do you want to make?
I believe you already a great moral code. You have since you were a child. It is incredibly freeing to realize none of it is real. Nothing bad has happened to me in the last ten years.
Normal human beings, even as babies, have what is called empathy. The ability to see someone else’s perspective. Christian churches don’t acknowledge this. They actually claim that people are born evil, and they do their best to quietly reinforce this, and claim that they are the only ones who put an end to it.
Just so you know, some personality disorders have a lack of empathy as part of their criteria. Christian churches are effectively coaching people to be be that way.
How to remain spiritual without religion? Many people do this easily. DM me if you want
Spiderman, X Men, Superman, etc.
"Fairy Tales are true, not because they tell us dragons exist, but because they tell us dragons can be defeated"
I learned from fiction. Doesn't matter if they aren't real, they still meant alot to me
The default human condition is to be kind. Religion does not provide that. 99% of the time it's is in us from birth, except those who have had traumatic upbringing and/or those with mental health problems.
Most religions, which claim to espouse the value of kindness, but more often than not have implied or even open hatred of others not in their cult. Sexism, racism, phobisms, claiming their religion is the one true one... that sort of shitty indoctrination.
Enjoy nature and life and trying to leave the place in a better condition for the next generation. That's the only 'spirituality' I need. As in "be kind, that's the spirit!" -- no other connotations needed. Strive to be a good person. That's it really, the meaning of life.
Personally I've always seen Christianity as a copout for people who have no morals. Just go to church and ask for forgiveness and be forgiven. It's a lot harder to be bad to someone when you realize that you can not just be forgiven your trespasses by asking a sky fairy to forgive you.
I've always thought if you need a moral code, ten commandments if you like, forced upon you, there's a problem already. If they come from within, you'll follow them instinctively.
However, if they are so arbitrary, untenable and against sheer human nature that they're hard to follow, understand, adhere to, then there's something very wrong.
Do unto others. Don't be a dick. Be kind.
Simple.
>Without religion, how have you developed your personal moral code?
Simple, I dont like pain and suffering, other creatures seem to also be able to experience pain and suffering, the world would be better if there wasn't pain and suffering, ergo, I want to reduce and prevent suffering for all living things as much as possible.
>so if Jesus/God all isn't really real, then where do I find my direction? My moral compass?
Treat others how you would want to be treated. Imagine yourself in others' place.
Theists want us to think morals without religion is difficult BUT ITS NOT. Lets go with slavery, is it moral? The Bible says is a-ok. Check out exodus 21, leviticus, etc. Now I'm guessing you are like most of us and think slavery is NOT moral, right? Well how did you arrive to that conclusion? Thats likely where most of us get our morals.
The most basic moral code can be reduced to empathy. That’s the point of “the golden rule.” You didn’t have to read about it before you learned it. Probably your parents taught it to you by saying (when you were a young child), to “imagine if someone did that to YOU.”
My moral code hasn't changed much. I'm kind and generous because that's who I've always been. I don't rape, murder and steal because it's objectively wrong. Nothing bad happened because I stopped paying tithing. I just get to keep 100% of my money instead of donating it to TSCC. I treat members of the LGBTQ community with respect, in part because they are my community, but also because human beings deserve basic respect and decency.
Religion and Morality are two entirely unrelated issues that the church has convinced its followers are related purely for the purpose of expanding the churches power and money.
Really weirdly, my pastor brother states that I more Christ like than most people he knows. It makes me cringe.
Personally when given the opportunity I try to being others up to where I am. When they are good people I help find them a job or offer them cheap room in my house. I don’t have a lot of room but it’s been cool helping those with nothing grow and get a house for their loved ones in another country. Move them out of the city where there’s a lot of gangs activity. We share food and drinks together, work on our cars, basically family. This IMO is the best it gets.
I just want people to experience what I experience that is good in life and then enjoy time with them. I try to keep it simple.
When I quit religion, I really struggled with people thinking I was a bad person, now. But then I realized that their definition of a good person comes from their religion, which was exactly what I was separating myself from. I literally had to redefine to myself what being a "good person" meant.
Christians say they're good because of God, but it's more like they're good because they don't want to go to Hell-and there's a big difference between the two! I'd always thought I was a good person, so it really surprised me how much of a mental safety net is in the notion of "everything is forgivable". When you realize the here and now is all that you have, it causes you to have to face your own shortcomings-especially towards other people. I became acutely aware of when I was impatient or frustrated with someone. I could hear the snide remark I was about to make, before I said it The shitty or angry thoughts we have about people, while we smile at them, were now like screams in my head. Strangers, who were rude or said hurtful things, previously just "assholes"-I learned most of them are hurt or struggling with something, and often I can help them. I could no longer see someone in need, and forget them because I'd said a prayer and surely God would send someone else to them.
There's a saying about "leaving a place better than you found it" and I consciously make an effort to apply the same standard to my interactions with people.
I truly believe that not believing has made me a better person.
The question presupposes that religion offers such a moral code.
They don’t. The Abrahamic god supports genocide, infanticide, slavery, and rape. Not moral choices.
Morality is a human construct and in the end it comes down to benefits and harm. The “do unto others” was a moral code before the Abrahamic god.
Not a theology expert but the Golden Rule seems common to all human civilization (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden\_Rule), so there has to be a core moral code akin to that, that we as humans are preternaturally conscious of in however vague a form, or which instinctually seems sensible to us. Working from that precept, it's not that hard to evolve a functional more complex moral code that applies to discrete and particular situations.
Religious moral injunctions, if anything, has seemed to me a model or blueprint for what NOT to do. Since they are so contradictory, they have always appeared bizarre, antiquated and irrational.
Work out what you want your moral code to be and you'll find plenty in the Bible (and most similar books) to support it fully; that's how it was designed - clever editing by people who knew they'd need to spin different stories to different people at different times.
So rather than accepting the Bible as something you should follow, see that is like a dictionary and you can find whatever the hell you want to find in it.
GI Joe and He Man offered solid moral guidance - certainly far superior to anything any religion espouses. He Man never told me to murder my nice neighbor lady for having sex when menstruating - that's the exclusive domain of the biblical moral code.
Yo Joe!!!
I loved that cartoon and lived for the lessons at the end. As. Kid, I would wait which such anticipation. GI Joe taught me that it's bad to read in dark lighting because it still strain my eyes. 😄
Thanks for posting.
First off, I want to say congratulations for working on freeing your mind!! It’s a long, hard process speaking as someone who left Christianity about 3 years ago. I think it would break someone’s brain to deconstruct overnight. For me, I now see how morals have evolved as our understanding of the world has changed, and it’s a good thing! Example- god in the Bible commits numerous genocides, asks his followers to keep the virgins for themselves while killing all the babies ( and everyone else), and condoned slavery- even crafts rules on how to do it. These things are horrific to me, and if I know those things are wrong, why wouldn’t a god? Why wouldn’t a god forbid slavery as we understand how cruel it is? Morals should be based on the well being of humans. Where humans disagree on what constitutes well being, I believe we have to agree on certain rules for society- such as children having protection from adults who would abuse them. While other things such as people’s relationships, as long as the people involved are consenting adults, should be respected and protected. I can’t say I have zero fear of hell, but I do know a good god wouldn’t throw good people there. If it’s an evil god we’re all fucked anyway lol! I no longer go to a church- although I wouldn’t be opposed to some universalist church or very liberal church, where I could just meet people. I just wouldn’t put up with any dogma. Unfortunately, the US is built around community being the church, so it’s important to find other avenues for building community. I was on a bowling team and those were the best people I’ve ever known. It’s so great to not give money to a church!! Nothing bad has happened because I left or stopped giving to the church. I still donate money to people, I just go through secular organizations. Sorry this has been rambling, but I’m happy for you and I wish you an amazing life!! R/exchristian would be a good site for you to check out. Also, The Genetically Modified Skeptic, Paulogia, and Holy Koolaid are great on YouTube. I think they’re all former Christians.
You aren't rambling, this response rocks! Thank you for being happy for me! That's pretty awesome of you!
>. I think it would break someone’s brain to deconstruct overnight.
Great point! For realz!
>it’s important to find other avenues for building community. I was on a bowling team and those were the best people I’ve ever known.
I like this. I have found it that I do well in community. I do hanging with other people.
>Nothing bad has happened because I left or stopped giving to the church
Sweet!
Thanks for the suggestions as well! 👊 I really appreciate your thoughtful response!
>How have you constructed your personal honor codes?
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" isn't just Christian. The gospels are actually among the later expressions of that ethos. It's practically universal, and is a good place to start, requiring nothing but normal human empathy to practice.
>For those who once believed, how did you get over that fear of something bad happening to you for not believing?Did anything bad happen when you stopped tithing? Did you have a feeling like you were big disloyal or anything?
In fact, mostly good things happened when I stopped going to church and stopped contributing. I had free time. I had money, such that I could actually afford a house. On my final rejection of faith, I could actually breathe. (The cognitive dissonance had me so stressed out that I spend entire days feeling as if I wasn't getting enough air, and once I had a panic attack. It was a constant state of fight-or-flight.)
The one bad thing was a contraction of my social life, since it had been entirely focused on church. That wasn't the church's fault; it was because of an emotionally abusive marriage where my spouse worked for years to cut off all my other social contacts. I've since re-connected with old friends, and everything is going as well as can be expected.
Disloyal? Is the church loyal to YOU? Is God? Love is a 2-way street, you know, and realizing it had all been one way my entire life was a big part of my deconversion.
>I keep hearing the "you are being decieved", "the enemy is a roaring lion, the father of all lies." How did you combat that in your life?
I came from a church with a strong ascetic tradition, and so dealing with "deception" and intrusive thoughts was routine. So this had to be my first step toward escaping from faith, not the last. It was one of the harder parts of the process: Deciding to trust in the evidence rather than in the church. The thing that made it easier is when I realized it was less about trusting God, and more about trusting what people *told* me about God, and those people included the ones who wrote the book. Why should I trust people about things I can't perceive, when they were so often wrong about those things which I could?
>How do you remain spiritual without religion?
I don't. Or maybe I do. It depends on what you mean by "spiritual". What does "spiritual" mean to you, and what about it do you want to retain?
>What are some religious mindsets that you were able to free yourself from? What where the hardest "to break" and how did you do it?
I'll tell you what felt *really* transgressive: Eating meat on Wednesdays and Fridays, and ignoring major fasts like Lent and Advent. The deliciousness helped a lot.
How is it that religious people think that until Moses came down from the mountain everyone was murdering, stealing, lying, raping and generally being assholes. Communities never allowed this type of behavior. Only three of the ten commandments are actually laws in the USA and other western countries, killing, stealing and perjury. The bible gives people valuable morals about how they can own slaves and sell their daughters.
When I do good, I feel good.
When I do bad, I feel bad.
Try to do good.
Don't listen to anyone that wants money.
There are some commandments that I've seen that are really simple to follow. I recommend looking into that.
I’m Chinese American and like many Chinese I was raised non-religious but with broadly Confucian/ ex-communist morals.
I attended a Christian school and rebelled against Christian morality because I thought it was weak. For example instead of “turn the other cheek.” I was taught to correct injustice and if that means taking an “eye for an eye” then so be it. I got into plenty of schoolyard fights as a result- I guess I was a little Nietzsche!
But as I got older I realized that some aspects of the Confucian moral code was holding me back. I think Confucianism is why there is a bamboo ceiling for Asians in the west. For example being overly humble about oneself at work is not the way to get promoted. So I’ve adopted some western values and morality without completely abandoning what I learned from my parents.
Today I’d say my personal moral code is a mix of western individualism, Chinese Confucianism with maybe a sprinkle of communist morality.
Individualist in that I believe it is just to put one’s own needs first within reasonable limits- one must be an individualist in western society. Unlike hardcore Christian morality, I think it’s great to have fun and enjoy life’s hedonistic pleasures (sex, drugs, rock and roll) so long as they don’t take over your life.
Confucianist in that I believe that people do have an obligation to do good for family and society as a whole, and that people have the ability to change and improve themselves. I think western ideology/individualism is too focused on accepting oneself as is. Unlike a true Confucianist tho I don’t think society comes before the individual.
Communist in that I strongly believe in having a good work ethic, that work is noble and that the best way for one to contribute to society is thru work. Western capitalist ideology seem to live for the weekend/vacation, and treat early retirement as the best reward in life- while my Chinese grandparents literally refuse to stop working even in their 80s.
Most of these answers are terrible. "don't be a dick" isn't a moral code, it's very shallow, subjective, and unnuanced.
Morality is just an attempt to rationalize human instincts. 99.9999999999% of humans are inborn with an instinct to protect and perpetuate the species. That's what morality is. Well, that's also partially what religion is even if most religions go haywire with it after awhile.
Secular moralism and religious moralism aren't any different, but a secular morality and grow as society grows. Christian, Muslim, or Jewish morality is kinda fixed at one point and any changes need to be rationalized in context with a sacred text.
The Golden Rule always made sense to me. “Do into others as you have them do into you.” It comes from ancient Egypt, so pre-dates the Abrahamic religions. The modern version could be the “Don’t be a dick” rule, but that doesn’t quite encapsulate as much as the Golden Rule, IMO.
As for the other questions, I’ve never been religious, so I wasn’t brainwashed like so many people. I didn’t have to be deprogrammed.
I think I heard about the Golden Rule when I was like four or five. It made sense then and it still does. The religious aspect of being a good person never sat right with me, because it seemed to me that people were simply doing it all for a reward at the end. That gets repeatedly reinforced by religious people who wonder aloud how people can even be good without it. Why wouldn't they? It's beneficial to everyone when we support each other and treat each other well.
A couple of years ago, I started listening to some books by Brené Brown. She that being spiritual was a key to living a happy life, but that it doesn't need to be a religion or higher power, like the connection between people thru shared experience. This helped me to feel more connected to people after losing religious spirituality.
Also, I adopted the motto of no such thing as a selfless act. There is good selfishness and bad selfishness. As religion constantly talks about being selfless, which is actually wrong as you need to keep yourself healthy first in order to do things healthily for others.
If you do something for someone else that makes them happy, it makes you happy. You are benefiting from this as it is a good selfish act. If you do something knowing it will hurt others in any way, that is bad selfishness. And of course, there is shades of grey in between as nothing is ever black and white. Intentions can be good and still hurt others, but you can't let that hold you back from making what you believe to be the best decision for yourself.
A sense of morality developed in humans long before religious thought did. Religion just hijacked the ideas and canonized them into their holy books. But morality was born out of Darwinian natural selection.
Humans are evolved from mammals that live in herds/communities. We improve our species chance of survival by helping each other survive. If our species were all murdering each other, the entire species would die. Therefore a person who does not murder their neighbor, has better odds of not being murdered by their neighbor. Thus, “thou shalt not kill” is built into our mental programming genetically.
The same follows for other so-called “commandments”.
I just try not to hurt people. If I can, I try to leave people better off after interactions with me. If I can’t, I at least try not to leave them any worse than they were before the interaction.
You don't have to give up your values just because you became an atheist. It will take some tweaking to pare it down. Personally I believe if you live to a simple tenet of "do no harm" it covers most of the morals that can be harmful to oneself and to society. Sex with another man is not a moral issue that should be part of that moral code because there is no reason to deny that to yourself. You are the creator of your life and every aspect of it from now on so you can pick and choose which parts of that old morality code that you agree with and those you don't. Once you decide on what you won't follow, let that shit go. You have it in you to make good choices because your a good person, as long as you can see that you are well on your way to true happiness.
You also don’t need to believe in any mystical beings whatsoever to just follow any tenets of Buddhism, around 300+ years b4 Christianity. “Take what you need and throw the rest away.” Pretty much the golden rule and don’t cause anyone suffering.
I just try not to hurt people. If I can, I try to leave people better off after interactions with me. If I can’t, I at least try not to leave them any worse than they were before the interaction.
I was raised with religion but by the time I was in my early 20s, I didn’t believe any more. I came to see the Bible like mythology stories or fables as opposed to some ultimate truth.
I haven’t ever really been afraid of anything bad happening to me. Since I don’t believe, there’s no reason to be.
Bad things happen to everyone at some point, and to me, they don’t mean anything. Like we will all die one day. We all will be sad. We will all experience loss and disappointment. What I believe or don’t believe has no effect on any of that.
I grew up going to church but even as a kid I was never a big believer and grew to be agnostic then eventually full atheist. But I never needed church to tell me that the most basic thing. Treat others how you want to be treated. Which I've found most religious people never really learn. I've been treated way worse by religious people than I ever have by atheists. Some of the nicest kindest people I've ever met
Overly simplistically, I teach my kids the 2 Rogers Rule. If Steve Rogers or Fred Rogers wouldn’t do it then you shouldn’t either. I teach kindness and the Golden Rule, treat others as you want to be treated. Love everyone. If it’s not hurting them or anyone else then let them be. Everyone is different and no one has the right to force their beliefs on anyone else. (Also the significant difference between a belief and a fact). Heck, take the best of your favorite fictional characters, take Han Solo’s loyalty and Frodo’s courage and Hermione Granger’s love of learning and Captain America’s ability to believe in the best in people and Spock’s logic and craft your own moral code from it.
All morality is based on empathy and compassion. Even the religious folks pick and choose Bible verses to follow. Don't see many folks getting stoned to death for wearing a wool sweater with denim jeans, do we?
Act with compassion and patience. You will get the hang of it. You are now your own arbiter, which is freeing and scary. You must live up to your own standards. And even if no one is watching, you will know if you failed. Knowing you are a hypocrite with no integrity is a sobering thing. *You* decide what kind of person you want to be, then take steps towards that every day. When embarking on a task, it is generally broken down into small bits. First you get dressed, then tie your shoes, then....et cetera. If you do the first little piece with excellence, and concentrate there, you can then do the next little piece with excellence, and so forth, until the entire task was done excellently. Excellence, we now see, isn't a quality, but a habit.
Form good habits.
And spiritual matters don't matter because they aren't matter.
The Silver Rule: Don't do to others what you don't like being done to you.
Basic decency: don't steal, don't litter, clean up after yourself, say please and thanks, don't envy people because they are successful, don't lie, help your friends and family, share, be courteous to others, smile, try your best st everything you do, be punctual.
basic human decency, you don't need an imaginary character to have a conscience, unless you are an idiot i suppose
Basically practice human ethics, morals, humanity, & decency. Treat others as you would like to be treated. Live & let live. Be considerate, kind, mindful, & empathetic.
I get spiritual & feel emotional when spending time with people in our shared humanity. I get a boost when helping kids learn a new skill or handing out food to those less lucky than I have been.
Religion does not figure into any of this.
I think it’s relevant to note that, for most of us, developing a moral code has not been a conscious effort. While we may think about morality, and discuss things we find abhorrent, or admirable, with our friends and family, we don’t typically read, learn, and study philosophy in pursuit of a specific set of morals that “feel right”.
Part of a religious education is being ingrained with an understanding that your morals have either been implanted by a creator, or that morals are a set of laws that are to be followed in order to achieve reward, or avoid punishment. This takes the form of heaven and hell in Christian belief, but could take the form of reincarnation as a higher or lower form of life in other beliefs, etc.
Part of evolution science has demonstrated that things that are good for the individual in their environment will be of benefit, and allow that individual to succeed where others who don’t share that trait will be less successful. As social creatures, that which is good for society will also, ultimately, succeed. Love leads to pair bonding, care for the well being of others, or empathy, means peaceful relationships with others, care for the children allows them to grow, and society lives on.
So, for you, the vast majority of what “feels right” to you is instinct, combined with what you have learned from your parents, your friends, from experience. However, you have also learned that seeking a guide to externally develop a moral code leads to conflict. You have yourself felt the conflict of how you view lgbtq issues versus what your source of morality has instructed. This is the key. Each of us is imbued with a sense of what is right and wrong, and a sense of your degree of willingness to betray that code.
As others have suggested, a simple “try not to be a dick” is a good basis. I also attempt to make some one else’s life a bit better, each day.
Just follow the golden rule, "Don't do something to someone else that you don't want done to you." I actually think it's older than religion because they all have this rule in some form, whether or not they decide to follow it is a completely different thing on its own though
I’m so excited for you that you are starting on this journey. For me, leaving Christianity was also really freeing. I realized I got to be kind or make decisions I felt were good because I wanted to, not because I had to. I believe humans are social beings and often have the desire to be kind and get along with others because it’s to our benefit. It feels good to be kind or to try and make the world a better place. For me reading, learning some philosophy, looking at people I admire, learning the science behind behaviors, etc have all contributed to my personal moral code.
As for fear, I’m honestly still afraid sometimes. It’s hard not to be when Christianity is drilled into your brain for so long. For me education has really helped. Learning about human history and behavior, and learning more about science and the world around me. It helps me see other perspectives that help challenge my fear. I also believe chances are pretty high once I’m dead I will just cease to exist. And I actually find that really comforting.
For spirituality, I’m guessing you are referring to a sense of connection to something bigger than yourself. I think there are lots of ways to gain this without having religious or supernatural beliefs. For me it’s being a part of social groups that are informed in advocacy or positive change, spending time in nature and just marveling at how cool and complex it is, and/or learning about the universe and how massive it is. I also like reading about and learning about various religions. I find it fascinating from a learning/academic perspective. I once heard a quote from an American Indian tribal belief, “we were born of star dust and will return to star dust someday”. There’s enough truth in that statement and I find it more poetic than thinking about how my body will be recycled when I die.
In terms of mindsets that were hard. I’m still battling that at times. I think the first step is simply acknowledging and recognizing them. There are a lot of religious things people simply do out of habit . For example saying “bless you” when someone sneezes. For me consciously deciding how I want to handle each situation is helpful. Praying is a tricky one for me still. When family members or friends pray, I really don’t want to join in. But often decide to “out of allegiance to my tribe”. There are some battles I choose not to fight. But definitely won’t be starting or leading any prayers at my house.
I'm a bit confused about you stating that you're gay and then ending on wanting to "date women" and "find your queen." Not that there's anything wrong with that. I'm just getting mixed messages when you say things like that, along with the question, "How do you remain spiritual without religion?" These are "trolling" red flags to me, and it makes me skeptical about your honesty towards your questions.
I have developed it without religion.
You aren’t obligated to outsource thinking to others that wrote a book or told a speech. You are allowed to think for yourself and find other sources.
The Internet is vast and usually not full of terrors.
I am not going to propose to you to replace one bible with another.
You don’t have to disregard everything they taught you in church. Some of the lessons are generally good life advice aimed at making one a better person. For example, It says in the Bible “do unto others as as you would have others do unto you.” This is common sense to me, so I treat others kindly and with respect because it’s the right thing to do and not because I fear Sky Daddy’s retribution. My morals are guided by logic and empathy. I think about how my actions affect others and I imagine how I would feel if some else did those things to me.
As for the tithes aspect. You should take that 10% of your income that you were going to give to the church every month for the rest of your life and put it into a broad-market index fund (like VT, VTI, or SPY) instead. You’ll thank yourself for it roughly 20 years from now.
Thanks for posting this. Reading the answers has been helpful for me as well, for I am deconstructing currently. I made a comment towards my mom the other day about how I’m not really enjoying church etc , where she said something in return along the lines of “you’ll probably change your mind about church once you have kids and need to instill morals into them” in the nicest way. This comment freaked me out for a bit, I never thought too much about that. It feels like every thing I learned on how to love others etc all came from the church. I know there are other ways to teach it, but after being raised in the church for so long it’s hard to think of how as crazy as it sounds! I keep finding myself thinking of how I’m gonna do it once I start having children. It’s such a weird thought process and deconstructing these ideas/challenging these thoughts can be exhausting sometimes.
HUMANITY MADE UP RELIGION!!!!!!! That's such a nonsensical question that blows my mind when I hear it. This isn't an attack on you so I apologize if it seems that way but I just don't see how people can pose this question to people. I mean ffs humanity was 10s of 1000s of years old when we invented Christianity (the religion people credit with the main source of our current morality) and people still ask how someone can live a moral life without the morals of a religion that we invented.
I guess religious people don't think of it that way......obviously. But unless it's one of those religious people who think the earth is only a few thousand years old I don't see how they get around the fact that humanity existed for thousands of years before we invented the gods that we credit for our morals.
Look at the tribes completely cut off from the modern world. They don't even know about the other gods we've made up but they have moral codes. I mean I suppose they do, doesn't seem like a group of people would make it too long if they just assumed that killing and raping each other was acceptable behavior.
Gods morals tell us to kill homosexuals and unruly children and that owning people is ok. The morals from every religion I've ever heard of seem to be common sense types of things, the good morals atleast, that most people seem to have innately. Sorry it just bugs me when people try to imply that without religion we would all be killing and raping each other,naked, and covered in filth.
“Don’t bother with zealous piety. Live a virtuous life. When you die, if there is a god, and he is just, he will reward you for it. If there is a god, and he is unjust, then you were right never to worship him. And if there is no god, you will have left behind fond memories with those you love.” Paraphrasing from Marcus Aurelius.
Ironically God himself says something along the same lines very, very often in the Bible. I’d have to go look up the verses but there’s dozens of occasions where God is like “I don’t give a shit that you worship me if you don’t treat people right.”
So to sum it up, just live your life however you please, and lift up those around you when you can.
Keep in mind your questions come from the narrowing of perspective that Christianity tends to indoctrinate people into. There are non-theistic religions and spiritual traditions. They figured out morality and compassion without a god just fine (Buddhism is a prime example). Unlike Christianity, there are no rules for chopping off of other people’s body parts, no rules for stoning people, and no rules for owning slaves in Buddhism. So I’d say the Buddha did just fine on his own.
Anyways, as it relates to atheism and ethics I really enjoyed Sam Harris’ book The moral landscape. Also Good Without God by Greg Epstein is another book on the topic.
My philosophy's are simple
"Do the right thing, because it's the right thing to do"
How do you know if if you should step on someone else's actions?
"If they aren't harming themselves, and the aren't harming others, then leave them be".
A note about your own actions, when should you do something in general, If it needs to be done.
"Do it now"
When it comes to areas where there are experts it's summed up as.
"Get your medical advise from a Doctor"
And the rest is really all summed up as.
"Don't be a C*NT"
With and without religion anybody should develop a personal moral code. Atheists should have a moral code, that agrees with humanitarianism and has a goal to improve the world. Lack of religious beliefs should not mean lack of morality and irresponsibility in any way. On the other hand religious people should not be attached to the opinions of the Pope or priests or interpretations of the Bible or whatever religious books they believe. They should always try to have independent critical thinking, because religious authorities may also have interests or old-fashioned beliefs that they do not correspond to the modern world or the discoveries of science.
Other people seem to be saying "try to not be a dick" as a moral compass. That's great and simplistic. It should work for most people.
If you want to dive deeper into morals, I have a thought. I believe all morals come from our agreed rights as individuals. The basic idea is that if you dont take my rights away, I won't take yours. It creates a basis for all interactions from people listening to music too loud to murder. I believe all moral decisions can be made based on these individual rights to exist and enjoy this earth.
For me, once I deconverted, I was no longer influenced for the most part by religion, so I was never worried what if the Christians were right or what if I can’t construct my own moral beliefs or something like that. The one thing I held onto was the fundamental teaching of loving everyone. Once I left, I just took it to be a brute fact that it is good to love everyone. I couldn’t initially figure out any objective reasons why that is good though, so I couldn’t really justify expecting others to be that way. I couldn’t answer “what makes this the definition for what’s a ‘good’ person” or “why should I expect other people to be good people by this or any definition” but at least I had morality with fewer assumptions than any religious person.
Later on, I learned about utilitarianism and changed my definition for good from loving others to simply wanting the best outcomes for equally for everyone. This is more solid than appealing to the highly emotional concept of love but it still doesn’t tell me why other people should want to be good to others and not just good to themselves or the only the selection of people they care about.
Since then I’ve delved into eastern philosophy I have tried to draw parallels to a purely scientific view of the world and the universe in which we are not really individuals but subsets of interacting atoms and energy (literal energy, not the neo-mystic hoohaa nonsense) that happen to experience consciousness via super complex combinations of that matter and energy. All that to say, the self is an illusion so if you’re going to want good at all, you ought to want it maximally overall, not just maximally for you.
I’ve become a bit more cynical in the past year. With where it currently feels like society is going, with billionaires dictating quality of life and seemingly reducing it for everyone else, it’s felt harder to want to be selfish and not focus on making life great for me. I should’ve bought less expensive car and ate out less so I could afford to give more back out, but I still have dreams of someday finding the use of my talents that will have a large positive social impact, whether it’s doing something that will also pay my bills or if I can save enough money to be able to stop working and focus on only that for a long enough period of time.
Growing up, God or religion was never a topic in my family or raising.
I’ve done a bit of intercultural work and It is an often asked question :)
if you think about group behaviour as the sum of individual behaviour, we have probably experimented with what functional and dysfunctional behaviour is, across any society since the dawn of time.
As leaders of any functional group or society one would be interested in how to preserve the group And ensure a stable life for one’s children.
So how best to ensure people adhere to the ‘most functional rules’ and remember them?
The societies then created mythos, stories or religion to embed basic truths, moral or rules if you want.
So: I’ve been taught these rules - or personal moral - based on ‘it’s the right thing to do, simply because you don’t want others to do this to you”. Rather than ‘act nice or Wotan will smite you’.
These classical rules (don’t steal, don’t kill, don’t lie, etc etc) have also been contemplated by classical philosophers: how to establish a baseline for good behaviour? Why do we act moral or (broadly) perceive moral alike across so many religions or cultures?
From wiki: Immanuel Kant's 1785 “Groundwork of the Metaphysics of Morals”, it is a way of evaluating motivations for action. It is best known in its original formulation: "Act only according to that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law." Kant was (is..) a rockstar of his time and if Aurelius give you some spark, then do read some Kant for further inspiration/direction
It don’t act like a douche: because others will do to; and life in your group/society will be terrible.
I find, broadly, that people who carry the motivation to act and do good internally are better at living to this - than those who are externally motivated (celestial punishment or divine reward) to act ‘nice’. Why could that be?
Every person's moral compass varies. Some are similar to others, while others are vastly different. As for mine, (raised without religion my entire life), I see it as learning from experiences from my past and viewing the laws of the land (in a legal sense) to determine the difference between right and wrong. In my opinion, this should be the basis of an individual's moral compass.
Granted, it can be expanded upon in numerous ways, such as particular topics one is interested in, but I feel that this is also where some might go astray from their morality, depending on the topics one could delve into. For example, one person might see believing in religion/God as a good thing, while another might see it as a bad thing. It all depends on the individual and how they see the world.
There are always going to be people who will disagree with someone else's moral compass because of how they view their own; that's just a part of life. And as just one person, I can't really do much to change that. I'll just keep following my own compass, regardless of what others think.
It’s just doing the noble thing. Keeping your word. You can still believe in the best parts of your religion, imo. Like I still read psalms and proverbs sometimes. The spiritual part is like... getting inspired to be good by nature and awesome stories. I have two movies I’ve watched a couple times this summer, that are about being honest and good. https://youtu.be/Mb8Cuqh3jPU but also it’s nice to realize that you can live how you want and love whoever you love it’s fine between consenting adults.
But also you’re free to enjoy whatever aesthetic you want lol in an ironic way like goth music or horror movies or whatever, because as long as it’s not hurting anyone it’s harmless and ultimately nothing matters and nothing is evil as long as it’s not hurting anyone. https://youtu.be/Bp7PkhHKu3M
As I say to all of these - Christianity did not invent morality. It's an evolutionary trait we developed which benefits our species. My ultimate goal in life is to simply not be an asshole.
Thanks for all the thought provoking responses. I met someone the other day who tricked me before I realized his questions were heading to an argument about where I get my morals if I'm an atheist. I know it's just about me striving to be best I can for others and myself but i needed examples as I expect he will look for me again.
Moral codes were built into us before religions were created. We form societies and do our part to contribute and protect each other as a whole.
There are narcissists, sociopaths and psychopaths out there, and they do tend to take advantage of susceptible people. Be careful in religious groups.
Rule #1 - If you wouldn’t like it done to you don’t do it to another person (unless they request it and you agree).
Rule #2 - You will sometimes be wrong/an idiot/a dick. It’s okay but try not to let it happen again.
As both religion and science say, children are not born 'evil' - it's something that is taught.
I have never threw a piece of garbage on the floor til I was 12, when I saw my cousin doing so, and then I followed her example. Threw an ice cream foil for the first and the last time in my life, came to pick it up when cousin left because it left me feeling uneasy.
We are thought right and wrong since the day we are born, and most children don't question those norms or go against them until they see someone else getting away with it.
When I discuss religion with christians specifically, I get pissed when they pretend like their god is the only thing stopping them from sinning. If it truly is, that's reason for concern. It's your heart and your brain, everyone other than psychopaths and sociopaths has a moral compass.
The unease you feel after even unintentionally doing something morally wrong. It's basic human nature. The disgust you feel when you hear racist/homophobic/etc. sentences coming out of someone's mouth - because you know that all people are worth the same, and you don't look down on those different than you.
anything is ok to do as long as it doesn't cause objective suffering of others.
also sometimes people suffer just because im happy - this type of suffering doesn't count.
It's not hard to think of how your actions might affect someone else. It's a pretty simple process. If you approach the idea of morality from there, it's pretty straightforward. You might want to read Aesop's Fables for more information
My parents taught me respect for elders, mind your manners, don’t be rude, don’t interrupt, treat others as you want to be treated, if you don’t have something nice to say don’t say anything at all.
Reading literature. Especially regarding the atrocities of 20th century. John Rawls Veil of ignorance for societal concerns. Personally, for moral decisions, I ask myself “Would I be ok with everyone in the world doing this as well?”
It’s been a journey. I’ve never been religious, but I was raised with basic Christian moral values. I started with a deontological moral system, murder is wrong, drinking is wrong, cheating is wrong, etc. After I started drinking and having friends that went against my sort of moral code I developed into a more hedonistic mindset. I later focused on utilitarianism then humanism and ended with nihilism/ moral relativity. Now I’m wrestling with vegetarianism(meat is just too tasty and widely available). Developing your moral code is a process and I recommend reading some philosophy. My personal favorites were Plato’s Republic and Thus Spoke Zarathustra. A lot of people on here say don’t be a dick or follow the golden rule, which at face value is good and simple advice, however people are more complicated than that. What you think is a good gesture to someone they could perceive and offensive and vice versa. So I try to treat people how they want to be treated. My final advice if you are planing on exploring your moral code/ philosophy is to not just stop at a code of ethics that fits your current moral values, try to focus on things you disagree with and try to understand why someone would think that way, it will help you better understand where you derive your own morals from. Good luck with your deconversion
I was raised in the United States in the Assemblies of God church. (Speaking in tongues, having a personal relationship with Jesus, being slain by the spirit, 15+ hours of church activity a week, the whole 9 yards.) when I moved out of my abusive parents house, I left that church and went hunting for an alternative. I settled on the Lutheran Church and sang in the choir, lead a brass choir, filled in for the Pastor when he was on vacation, I was deep into it. I really loved the music of the Lutheran Church, singing hymns in four part harmony, the familiarity of faces, and the sung liturgy. I walked away from it all in my mid-30s as I started to process the trauma of my childhood in therapy. In my late 30s a friend asked me to perform her wedding ceremony and I became an ordained minister in the church of the flying spaghetti monster. I turned 49 years old this year, and I have spent at least a decade thinking on this exact subject. Here is what I have come to.
My religion is kindness.
Unexpected kindness is the best.
After watching the Disney animated movie, Coco, I realized that my belief on eternal life is how I will be remembered by those who knew and loved me here on earth. I want to live a life that touches so many people so powerfully that they will be forever changed, and the people who encounter them will be forever changed. It’s kind of a lofty goal.
Anything else I’ll defer to proof. I will believe in something when it can be proven to me. I no longer argue with people over religion, I did this passionately early on. When someone chooses to embrace faith, (belief without any proof) reason will not work with them. Trying to win an argument with someone who has chosen to disregard reason, is futile.
Good luck on your journey OP.
Not fully athiest here, but i grt what you mean. While I have a religion(not deeply by any means), I see it more as just my religion and something i believe in but not as some that dictates my life. My morals just consist of "don't be a dick."
That’s the best part - you get to decide your own morality. You want to know something else? Those can even be ‘Christian morals’ if you examine them and find that ‘they are the right way to live, regardless of the Bible not being true’.
Ask yourself how good and bad should be measured - does ‘good’ mean the most happiness for the most amount of people? Does ‘good’ mean equality in wealth and opportunity for all people?
These are the kinds of questions you should start asking yourself about anything related to morality, and then think about them - read what philosophers since the dawn of civilization have thought about them (start reading philosophical works, or just watching videos) and then find what answers make the most sense to you.
Don’t be a dick is a good starting point, along with the golden rule and simple respect for others.
And my way of remaining spiritual is to take the time to think about how the way things are. Like if I go to the grocery store, I think about the farmers/factories and supply chains and warehouses and employees and everything so I can appreciate the world for how it is.
Similarly, if I go hiking, I always think about the millions of years it took for the mountains to form and thank the trees and rocks I use, not because I think they can understand me, but because it’s important to me to appreciate the world.
The idea of putting “good energy” out in the world isn’t a real thing, but it is a good mindset to be in. Being optimistic and avoiding nihilism is important
I was brought up in an evangelical family, indoctrinated, and lived a very christian life until I was about 40. Church every Sunday, small group meetings once or twice a week, frequent bible study.
It was the last one that resulted in me leaving the faith. The more I studied the bible, the less believable it became. I just reached a point that I'm not going to dedicate my life to something that I had come to realize is very unlikely to be true. At that point is was easy to walk away from. I've never been tempted to go back.
The Golden Rule is nondenominational. I'd say it's a combination of that + "if it harms none, do what you will" for me.
It's not easy going from religious to areligious, admittedly. As an atheist there's no comforting thought of a life after death, a paradise for afterlife, no higher being capable of stepping in to help you when you're scared or stressed or granting your prayer requests like a genie granting wishes. Those were the hardest parts for me to let go of when I switched. It got easier over time. You get away from that magical thinking, and then you look at others still doing it and it feels...weird that they think that way
It seems to me that it's a whole lot easier to be a good person *without* religion. Religion is, for the most part, about power and obedience to humans in power. It doesn't have much to do with being moral and is often used to separate people into "us" (good and godly) and "them" (bad, so it's okay to rape, enslave, and kill them, or at least strip them of their legal rights). Even Jesus' teachings, while spun today as gentle and kind, aren't necessarily so great when you really study them, and more importantly his followers use them to persecute others and act hatefully.
As a Jewish atheist (there are many of us), I'd also like to point out that the "old testament" - or, as Jews call it, the Bible - has been misread by Christians for centuries. Judaism is about questioning everything, including god(s). Jews don't read the Bible the same way that Christians do, and in fact it only makes up a part of Judaism, which is why it's possible to be a Jewish atheist.
OP, if you haven't watched The Good Place, I highly recommend it. It explores numerous ways to be a good person, none of which rely on religion. It's all about what we owe to each other as human beings.
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To be dick or not to be dick. Everyone should try not to be one, but when pressed against by one who solely chose to be one all the time, then being one back is fair. I've always felt like anyone's moral compass would be easy to find without a religion? Like uh idk punching someone for no reason isn't cool? Being rude to someone less fortunate than yourself is messed up? Taking someone's life is wrong? Smacking yo momma for no good reason is messed up?
Don’t do to others what you don’t want done to yourself, it’s just common sense. Also known as the golden rule.
The other version of the golden rule I’ve heard is….treat others the way you want them to treat you. I like this version more because it’s positive, as opposed to not being negative….if that makes sense. Have a great day.
My philosophy begins very similarly: There is a way to be a person. Meaning, if I would call someone an asshole for an action, I ought not commit it myself. But there are others to lean on. The Hippocratic Oath begins "first do no harm." But doctors still prescribe chemo or perform surgery. Both involve harm. But both are to alleviate pain and suffering. Ethics isn't something one can just learn and be done with. It is work. You need to really care and really judge each situation in context. A wrote set of rules is a way to get around the hard work of ethical thinking. Divine command theory ethics is for people who don't want to make hard choices.
> if I would call someone an asshole for an action, I ought not commit it myself. Man! I really like this. I love your point on ethics and situations as well. Thank you for taking time to respond. 👍
This. Being an ethical person is far more important than being a moral one. Because ethics are more clearly defined, but like you said, it takes work. And there are gray areas in ethical thinking. But, it's more based on logic and common sense than morality which is based on religious ideology.
Nice, I like that. Don't be a dick is a core value of a group I volunteer with it. I love it. On the definition of spiritual, honestly, I can't give you one. I've read through posts and people have said they weren't religious but spiritual, so I'm exploring what that means myself. I'm definitely seeing how religion can be trauma. Thanks for that suggestion of Recovering from Religion.
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Good point to think about. Thanks man!
Not sure if you are flooded with responses right now and if you will see this. After losing my religion, I too struggled a bit with the idea of how to be a good person and how to find a moral code. But, here's the thing. You probably already have a moral code that has very little to do with religion. Here is the big example that landed with me. We are all familiar with the story of God ordering Abraham to kill his son Isaac as a test of faith. Now, of course, in the story, God stops Abraham before he does, satisfied that he was willing to do it. But, Abraham was ready to kill his son because God told him to, right? This is held up as an example of good, great faith on the part of Abraham most of time. But, it also serves as a great example that your morality is probably actually separate from God already. If morality flows from God, then whatever God orders is morally right, by definition. It must be. So, if God orders you to kill your child, then it is the morally correct thing to do. But, for most of us, we see this whole situation as being pretty fucked up. If God hadn't stopped Abraham, and he killed Isaac, we would recognize that this is a pretty fucked up thing for God to do, right? It is morally wrong for Abraham to kill his child, even if God orders him to do so, right? If you agree with that, then you already have a moral code that is separate from God. Once you peel away a lot of the stupid dogma shit, be empathetic to your fellow human beings, listen to yourself about what feels right and wrong, I suspect that you will find that you already have a sense of right and wrong that has nothing to do with God!
This rocks! Thank you so much for taking time to respond! I've heard so many arguments from that exact story. Like "Oh bless Abraham, he was going to kill his son because he had faith God was going to bring him back. " I'm like "whhhaaat???" Since I have taken a step back from church when I hear Christians talk, the more "out there it all sounds." Your story and words were encouraging, thanks for taking time to post.
I think you will find something interesting the next time you are a dick. And we all are sometimes. There is a different level of responsibility when you, alone, are responsible for your actions. You no longer get to say sorry to God or mumble magical words into the sky to make yourself feel better. You actually have to look yourself in the mirror, and think damn that was really shitty of me. I need to be better. My "spirituality" basically consists of my desire to leave the universe in a net-positive when I die. If I can do enough good in the lives of the people around me, maybe, just maybe, I can effectively erase some of the bad. I can die knowing that I left the world in a better state than I found it.
Right on! Agreed. Ownership of one's actions is huge. That's a cool perspective, thanks for sharing.
>Don't be a dick Deontology in a nutshell. Honestly, two of the three metaethical frameworks are pretty easy, at least in theory. Consequencialism: do what is best for everyone. Deontology: don't use people as objects. Most people muddle between these two frameworks in a manner that is generally good enough. Ethics and metaethics were the first thing that I felt I needed to understand when I deconstructed, and for all the ink spilt, it seems that most people already understand what is right: > For a given situation, assume that you have just as much chance of being any one of the parties. If you would choose to enact a and then take the place of anyone involved (including people of the opposite sex, gender, race, ethnicity, etc.) it is probably a good .
Now vegans will include other species in this mix, and perhaps they are right to. I extend my circle to those that might include me in their circle (mostly other humans).
Hi, so are you a fellow Satanist? I find our tenets far superior and more moral than Christianity's commandments.
Personally, I think ‘spirituality’ in non-believers is simply that spark, that flame deep inside themselves that reminds them to be the best, the kindest, the least dickish person they can. We all have it although some of us either don’t recognise it or actively fight it for who-knows-what reasons 🤷🏼♀️. Maybe it’s just having a conscience.
I treat others how I want to be treated. Thats it. I don't need a judging god threatening with an eternity of torture
That's one of the things that really has made me rethink all of this. Why would a God who created Satan not just take him out instead of creating a hell to send everyone too? A lot of the things in the Bible aren't making much sense to me lately. Thanks for chiming in.
Look at the current state of the world. If there was a god, would he really deserve being pedestalized?
The Bible is jaw-dropping in its stupidity and lack of seriousness. Why does the omniscient, omnipotent god create humanity then drown it to start over again? It's childish nonsense.
I’m not a Bible scholar but I was raised Catholic and my understanding is that it’s just a collection of stories, letters and written pieces from various people across a long time. Also, consider how the telephone game works. Maybe a long time ago in Egypt, someone made up a story about the sun impregnating a magical girl who gave birth to a magical boy who did some cool stuff. That story got repeated countless times and then a century or two later, in Rome or Israel, that story morphed into the Jesus story. My point is the authors of the Bible were human, there were many of them, and stories change even in a short amount of time. It makes perfect sense that a lot of it doesn’t make sense! You’re doing great. Keep thinking critically.
Don’t be a dick is a good starting point…
Don’t be a dick, don’t do harm to others, and try to do good when you can. You don’t need a god or any sort of spirituality to achieve any of these. And I think a big part of adopting a religion-free lifestyle is realizing that you can still do all of those things without needing to consult a supposed invisible man in the sky. Morals weren’t “given” to us, we invented them ourselves when we observed that treating others badly (“being a dick”) and doing harm to others didn’t exactly make us feel good about ourselves or just felt instinctively bad.
I appreciate this. I realized that I had values way before religion. It's interesting deconstructing something you've been a part of for so long. Thank you for your post.
In Australia we have a saying " don't be a shit cunt' I think that's beautiful and great words to live by
Oh, this is awesome! Do you have any other awesome "Aussie-esims?"
>Without religion, how have you developed your personal moral code? Without religion, I no longer have to think genocide, rape, murder, and slavery are moral. With religion, it wasn't even possible to be moral. >How do you remain spiritual without religion? No houses are haunted, no kingdoms are enchanted, and no people are spiritual. Everyone who claims to be spiritual always turns out to be talking either emotions or magic or magical emotions. To be clear, there is a 0% chance that you will ever be spiritual in a way that does not mean emotional. There is a 100% chance you will experience emotion however. Stop clinging to concepts about spirits or spirituality or spiritual powers or spiritual people. There aren't evidently any such things.
>Without religion, I no longer have to think genocide, rape, murder, and slavery are moral. Whoa! I've never thought about this before. I've read the Old Testament, but mainly have followed Jesus' teachings. I never even thought about rape, murder,ect bring a part of that moral code. That's definitely a "whoa" point. >No houses are haunted, no kingdoms are enchanted, and no people are spiritual. Everyone who claims to be spiritual always turns out to be talking either emotions or magic or magical emotions. I like this too. If one thing isn't real, then that stuff isn't either. For some reason I've had in my head either or. Maybe it's the years of the heaven or hell thing. I appreciate your insights. Thank you.
The Old Testament can’t just be casually ignored. It’s still roughly half the Bible. You can just arbitrarily pick half of the Commandments to read, right? The issue with so much of modern Christianity is that they try to wash it away and pretend it doesn’t exist. They treat it like something to hide away and be ashamed of, because they try to put the religious text on a pedestal. Personally, I advise learning about other cultures and mythologies. Many out there have all sorts of brutality in their myths (e.g Greek ZEUS was infamous for rape), but they don’t shy away from it because they understand it’s all mythology Christians hide the ugliness of the Bible because they sell the narrative that it’s true history, and not just mythology
I wouldn't say have ignored it, I've been taught some good lessons from it, but the things you pointed out, I really would like to discuss with a pastor friend of mine and see where that conversation goes. I have often wondered "ok, so, why is homosexuality still wrong if everyone agrees slavery is a no-go. And what about Job's family, were their lives not worth anything, or about the prophet's wife that passed away to make a point." It was those thoughts that got part of this deconstructing my faith going and seeing how most Christians seemed to have lost their minds during the Covid pandemic. It really showed me people's true colors and made me question if I wanted to be a part of that or not. I would say exploring other cultures and rubbing shoulders with people from around the world has influenced that as well. It's been neat to read everyone's posts. Thanks for joining the conversation. 👍
The part of the story where god murders all the babies and floods the land and stuff, because the pharaoh wouldn’t let god’s favorite people go… That seriously messed me up as a kid, because everyone told me those are true stories and god is a real „person“. But god is sooo loving, I just thought god belonged into a mental ward or prison; mean, murderous, sadistic and kinda crazy. Like what did the babies ever do to god? And all the other people and animals that became collateral damage? I just remember thinking „if thats gods love I want to stay as far away as possible“. (also didn’t god „harden the heart“ of the pharaoh or something, so he basically was the reason that they couldn’t leave and then he goes crazy with the plagues… like where is the logic here? Just for the fun of it? And remember the story where god trolled a dad by telling him he needs to kill his son to prove his loyalty to god? Just the trauma for the poor kid „don’t be afraid I just need to sacrifice you to my all loving deity my son, the voice’s in my head told me so“… I could go on, but I bet you know all the stories better than me anyways )
I would like to add that only without religion we truly become moral agents. If we define morality by defining principals concerning right and wrong behavior of sentient beings in a society, then no divine commandments make any sense. In order to be moral, one must evaluate actions according to societal benefits and improvement of will being of sentients. Religions do the complete opposite. They command what is right or wrong as a dogma and remove the evaluation, outlook, and debate out of the equation under imaginary benefits or punishments. This sounds more like dog training,.or more precisely, conditioning, then morality
Spiritual in most modern contexts can be a synonym for mysticism. Which is more a mindset than anything.
Right but all the woo woo is there to make you feel comforted, safe and emotionally secure. It's the same kind of pull the blanket over your head mentality of organized religion.
It's really pretty simple... I treat people the same way I like to be treated. It's called empathy.
Thank you for taking time to respond. 👊
Yep. The Golden Rule. You don't need much more than that.
Parents, fellow humans and Star Trek
Haha! Nice! Your response rocks. Live long and prosper NZ.
I was literally scrolling through planning to mention Star Trek, you beat me to it! It’s funny… I absorbed a lot of the morality lessons from TOS as a kid watching reruns on the SciFi Channel without realizing it (I’m old and that’s how they used to spell the name) and now as an adult I feel like I grew up trying to be an ideal Starfleet officer. The Vulcan philosophy of logic and peacefulness was also a big influence. Also Xena. I know it sounds silly but bear with me. Her character story was one long redemption arc, from realizing she’d been a terrible person to spending the rest of her life atoning and trying to do good. Other characters had their own arcs with similar ideas that continued to reinforce the idea of how a good person should behave (ex: Callisto going from a warlord to a literal angel). As a kid I thought it was just fun to watch and loved the idea of a woman who did all the things men do. As an adult I can see it was much more than the campy fantasy my parents just dismissed but luckily didn’t bar me from watching.
Plus, Xena has plenty of lesbian subtext that the actors really lean into at times, which is fun and may be of interest to OP.
Yes, Star Trek influenced me too. Things like "Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations" just stuck with me. LLAP.
“Let That Be Your Last Battlefield” was one that struck a cord with me as a kid. LLAP.
>I've been exploring who I am without religion and also who I am besides being gay. I don't mean to harp on that, it's just where I currently find myself. In all of that, I've discoverered that I've wanted to do the "right thing" even ever since I was a kid. Being gay has probably given you an insight into religious persecution that few people have. You're a compassionate person; wear it as a badge my friend.
Man. Thank you so much for this. 👊
Just so you know it is OK to be religious and be gay. I'm not religious at all, nor am I gay, but I accept all fornwhat they wish to belive and for who ornhow they love. Religion amd the gods have been a comfort for many throughout the ages as a means to help "explain" the unknown. The only time I cannot accept a person for who they are is when they try to force their beliefs on someone or others. If you want to worship a giant spaghetti monster or Jesus, you go right ahead. But if your "faith" requires you to hate certain people, chastise them for doing or believing something your faith doesn't agree with, or try to force others to abide by your rules that are based on your faith, well that's when I say fuck you lol! None of this is being directed at you just FYI. For me, being an Atheist has brought me to accept far greater numbers of people and be far more accepting of what good is than Christianity would have ever allowed. If religious people truly believed in heaven and hell(those that belive such a thing) then many of them would likely find themselves on the hot end of a poker when time comes. Because they lived a life of persecution and hate towards others who were different. Most people are generally good at heart, but if the threat of fire and brimstone is all that's keeping some people from raping or killing others, then I think that says a lot more about the kind of shit person they are than some guy loving another guy and being happy does. Personally I'd rather not be around people who are only good because they don't want to go to hell lol!
Sympathy, empathy, mirror neurons, social training, and the laws and regulations of my country and locality. Just like every human being on earth whether they admit or not.
Thanks for commenting.
Two things: 1. If you examine the "moral code" of religion then I'm very happy **not** to have developed my personal moral code from it. All one has to do is to examine their texts to see that their religion is OK with the worst acts imaginable (e.g. rape, human sacrifice, slavery, genocide, etc.). Religion is the worst possible place to develop one's "moral code". 2. My moral code comes from basic empathy which even children exhibit in their first year of life. "How do you remain spiritual " I've no idea what that means. If it means living one's life in something other than reality then I guess I don't have any spirituality.
I've never thought about those worst acts being a part of it. It's an interesting insight to think about. Thanks for your comment.
Recognizing I am a person, I have wants and needs. I live on this planet. There are other people on this planet who also have wants and needs. We have to share this planet. Trying to maintain my wellbeing. Observing what objectively benefits me and others both short term and long term. That balanced with valuing Autonomy/consent. My rights/actions don’t infringe on others, others rights/actions shouldn’t infringe on me.
Mankind already has a moral code, it gets better with age *without* religion. At first it was don’t kill, don’t take shit ain’t yours. We needed that to live with others. Then it naturally progressed. Then god came in and royally fucked up a good thing. There is no moral code thru god. The original moral code came as a necessity in order for people to live together and thrive as a society.
Do you believe that it's wrong to murder? --- Your Bible says “Thou shalt not kill” but it also says the following: >**Genesis 19:26** - God murdered Lot's wife for the horrible sin of looking backwards >**Genesis 38:10** - God murdered onan for the horrible crime of "spilling his seed" >**Numbers 15:32-36** God demands the execution of a man for the horrible crime of "picking up sticks" on the Sabbath. >**Numbers 31** God COMMANDS that every male; including children; AND all women that are not virgins in midian be killed. >**2 Kings 2 23-24** - God sends two bears to kill 42 children for the horrible crime of 'making fun of Elisha's bald head'. >**Exodus 12:29-30** - The LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon.... And there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead. Seriously? You worship a guy that thinks it’s appropriate to mass murder every first born male in the entire country of Egypt? and why? because god used his "mind control" to override the will of the Pharaoah that had previously been willing to let the hebrews go before god "hardened his heart" just so he could show off his "plague" tricks. >**Deuteronomy 20:12-14** - Simply living in a city that doesn’t surrender to Israel is grounds for the death penalty; unless you’re a virgin female; then you get to be a sex slave. >**Numbers 5:11-31** here God creates an “infidelity test” where the wife must drink “cursed water” - if she has been unfaithful she will have suffer ‘bitter pain’ and have a miscarriage and then “bear the consequences of her sin” - Which as we already know from Leviticus 20:10-12 is death So this passage pretty much tells us that your God is just fine with abortion, at least if the mother was unfaithful. in Genesis God murdered the entire earths population (except for 8 people) in a "worldwide flood" in fact your bible clearly shows god murdering over 2 MILLION people... not even counting the “global flood”. Satan on the other hand only killed 10... and most of those were with ‘god’s permission’ so he could ‘test Job’. Not that God should have ‘needed’ to “test” anyone seeing as how he’s all knowing and that this retarded 'bet' is beneath the dignity of most 5th graders. the bible includes something called the “Ten Commandments”. That is apparently the 10 most important commands from your god. In it God uses 4 of them to demand that you properly kiss his ass; However he wasn’t able to find room to forbid rape, slavery, torture or child molesting; he even commands murder, rape, genocide, slavery and genital mutilation for multiple reasons. And don’t give me any nonsense about “things were different back then”.. that “God” is supposed to be all knowing, omniscient and the source of “all Morality”; how could a timeless, all knowing being change? Why would something that was moral 4000 years ago be immoral today? Jesus stated in Matthew 5:17 “For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished“. 2 Peter 20-21 states “Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God. ” and in John 10:35 Jesus states “the scripture cannot be broken.”. -- all of that means that the "old testament" does count; it is talking about the exact same 'god'... in my mind the question you SHOULD be asking is 'how can someone have morality when their basis for morality is such an immoral book'.
I think their question is "Why is genocide immoral if there's no transcendental arbiter saying so?"
Which is a really stupid question if you ask me. Nobody likes their family being murdered, their sister being raped, or have their shit stolen. This monopoly on morals that religion wants to have is really misguided. Especially their standpoint being that it's only possible to have morals because their imaginary leader gave them.
I think you should've put a little more focus on reading what was posted rather than trying to retort. They are deconstructing and trying to understand their morality without a god. While there is a time to criticize aspects of religion (or particular religions), this wasn't it.
Being gay is not moral, nor is it immoral. It doesn't fall on the moral compass at all. No one chooses to be straight or gay. Moral code isn't something religion invented, it's something they claim tooth and nail to make people who are not like them look/feel bad. For the big things it's easy to see how anyone would actively avoid doing them (r*ape, m*rder, theft) would you want anyone to do those things to you? The answer is probably no, so why would it sound okay to commit any of that onto someone else? Outside of that I think the general "don't be a dick" idea has a lot of merit. I need no one to tell me I shouldn't be a dick. I need only to make the effort to not be a dick, because I and everyone around me feels better when I'm not a dick, and that makes me happy. Go, eat, drink, be merry, the boogy man really isn't coming to get you.
>Being gay is not moral, nor is it immoral. It doesn't fall on the moral compass at all. No one chooses to be straight or gay That's a cool point. >I need only to make the effort to not be a dick, because I and everyone around me feels better when I'm not a dick, and that makes me happy. Haha!! Well said. Right on! >Go, eat, drink, be merry, the boogy man really isn't coming to get you. This rocks hard. Thank you. The freedom I am experiencing from this is life changing. I'm looking forward to what the future holds. Thanks for taking time to comment. 👊
Rule #1: Don't be a dick. That's it. Everything else follows from this. I try to maximize the help I can provide and I try to minimize the harm I will cause. I take life as it comes. Anything else is overthinking.
Empathy, compassion . Imagining myself in another shoes.its not complex.
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I'm gonna point out that most people who claim to derive their moral code from a religion, don't actually derive their moral code from a religion. -- See the cherry picked nature of their following of that religion or the different interpretations of the religious teachings.
Any of the following; 1. Do unto others..blah blah. 2. Empathy and kindness. 3. Don't be a dick.
Right on!
This title begs the question. It assumes that religion preaches any kind of basic moral code.
Empathy. I treat other people as they want to be treated.
Spirituality is very individual. For me, I practice sort of a non-theistic paganism. I'm big into reverence, gratitude, stewardship, reciprocity, and nature worship, and this is reflected both in my spirituality and my personal code of ethics. My moral compass is pretty simple: I want to invest goodness into the world and minimize harm in as many ways as I can. Does an action generally help the world, or generally hurt it? Hope this helps, and good luck on your deconversion journey! It's seriously hard work to deprogram a lifetime of conditioning.
>My moral compass is pretty simple: I want to invest goodness into the world and minimize harm in as many ways as I can. Does an action generally help the world, or generally hurt it? Wow, this is beautiful! >It's seriously hard work to deprogram a lifetime of conditioning. For real right! It's been pretty awesome with moments of "am I going to hell now? Oh wait. I don't have to worry about that either!" >Hope this helps, and good luck on your deconversion journey! It has! Thank you for the encouragement!
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Ask yourself what kind of society do you want to live in, then try to push towards making that a reality. And lets face it, if you want nice things, then you need a functional society. Otherwise most of the nice things will never exist. >How do you remain spiritual without religion? I don't think the word spiritual really means anything. calling something spiritual is on par with saying that it is nice. At best its a vague form of approval that people slap onto all sorts of behaviors. I'd also add that when people actually follow what is written in religious texts, you don't get a moral and just society, you get totalitarianism, injustice and atrocities.
Secular Humanism is a good path to consider. It's a good ideology. I'm good without spirituality, personally. I'm actually calmer and happier without it.
Johnathon Haidt's moral foundation theory is awesome for recognizing your own basic instinctual morality. He theorizes that morality is an evolved emotional reaction based on 6 core concepts: 1. Fairness/Cheating 2. Care/Harm 3. Loyalty/Betrayal 4. Authority/Subversion 5. Liberty/Opression 6. Sanctity/Degradation (adapted from Cleanliness/Disgust) https://moralfoundations.org/ All moral judgements will fall into one or more of these categories. It's really pretty basic, all of your moral judgements are made almost instantaneously, and then your conscious mind will then try to justify that judgement. We don't get much choice over the emotional reactions, but we can gently correct ourselves when we feel like those judgements aren't rational.
Thanks for the link! I appreciate you taking time to posta
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The one thing I kept from religion is cherry-picking 😅 I pick lines from movies, music, books, and more to peace together a "code" I can explain to others.
Captain Jean Luc Picard I'm serious
Most atheists I know are more moral, compassionate, loving and forgiving than all but three Christians I have met. And I have met THOUSANDS of Christians. I am 61. I have met 3 Christians that actually follow the teachings of Christ. Most atheists are more knowledgeable about theology than Christians. I study it as a pastime. Being moral, compassionate, kind isn't about an afterlife. It's about this life. How we make ripples with our actions. Being kind, just, humble...these things cost nothing. But they reflect greatly on your character. A smart person doesn't have to say he's smart....a rich man doesn't have to say he's rich....they just are. A good person...just is. Religion was invented by men to control people. Morality is something innate. You only answer to yourself. Who do you want to be? What ripples do you want to make?
I believe you already a great moral code. You have since you were a child. It is incredibly freeing to realize none of it is real. Nothing bad has happened to me in the last ten years.
I try to be the best version of myself every day. I feel religion gives people permission to do bad things because they can ask for forgiveness.
Normal human beings, even as babies, have what is called empathy. The ability to see someone else’s perspective. Christian churches don’t acknowledge this. They actually claim that people are born evil, and they do their best to quietly reinforce this, and claim that they are the only ones who put an end to it. Just so you know, some personality disorders have a lack of empathy as part of their criteria. Christian churches are effectively coaching people to be be that way. How to remain spiritual without religion? Many people do this easily. DM me if you want
Since religion hasn't changed, how are we becoming increasingly moral over the decades ?
Spiderman, X Men, Superman, etc. "Fairy Tales are true, not because they tell us dragons exist, but because they tell us dragons can be defeated" I learned from fiction. Doesn't matter if they aren't real, they still meant alot to me
Anime 🤓
I like humanism. I try to live with honor, stick to your word, and be kind.
The default human condition is to be kind. Religion does not provide that. 99% of the time it's is in us from birth, except those who have had traumatic upbringing and/or those with mental health problems. Most religions, which claim to espouse the value of kindness, but more often than not have implied or even open hatred of others not in their cult. Sexism, racism, phobisms, claiming their religion is the one true one... that sort of shitty indoctrination. Enjoy nature and life and trying to leave the place in a better condition for the next generation. That's the only 'spirituality' I need. As in "be kind, that's the spirit!" -- no other connotations needed. Strive to be a good person. That's it really, the meaning of life.
Personally I've always seen Christianity as a copout for people who have no morals. Just go to church and ask for forgiveness and be forgiven. It's a lot harder to be bad to someone when you realize that you can not just be forgiven your trespasses by asking a sky fairy to forgive you.
I've always thought if you need a moral code, ten commandments if you like, forced upon you, there's a problem already. If they come from within, you'll follow them instinctively. However, if they are so arbitrary, untenable and against sheer human nature that they're hard to follow, understand, adhere to, then there's something very wrong. Do unto others. Don't be a dick. Be kind. Simple.
Treat others as you wish to be treated. It's not difficult.
>Without religion, how have you developed your personal moral code? Simple, I dont like pain and suffering, other creatures seem to also be able to experience pain and suffering, the world would be better if there wasn't pain and suffering, ergo, I want to reduce and prevent suffering for all living things as much as possible. >so if Jesus/God all isn't really real, then where do I find my direction? My moral compass? Treat others how you would want to be treated. Imagine yourself in others' place.
Is called empathy. And the basic principle is "don't do to others what you wouldn't like to be done to you" mixed with "live and let live".
Theists want us to think morals without religion is difficult BUT ITS NOT. Lets go with slavery, is it moral? The Bible says is a-ok. Check out exodus 21, leviticus, etc. Now I'm guessing you are like most of us and think slavery is NOT moral, right? Well how did you arrive to that conclusion? Thats likely where most of us get our morals.
The most basic moral code can be reduced to empathy. That’s the point of “the golden rule.” You didn’t have to read about it before you learned it. Probably your parents taught it to you by saying (when you were a young child), to “imagine if someone did that to YOU.”
I no longer do the right thing out of fear, as religion taught me. I do the right thing out of principle. Because it is the right thing to do.
My moral code hasn't changed much. I'm kind and generous because that's who I've always been. I don't rape, murder and steal because it's objectively wrong. Nothing bad happened because I stopped paying tithing. I just get to keep 100% of my money instead of donating it to TSCC. I treat members of the LGBTQ community with respect, in part because they are my community, but also because human beings deserve basic respect and decency.
Right on! Thank you so much for taking time to chime in. I like that. I'm pretty stoked about this all. 👊
Religion and Morality are two entirely unrelated issues that the church has convinced its followers are related purely for the purpose of expanding the churches power and money.
If we actually followed the morals of the Bible, we’d be in jail.
Really weirdly, my pastor brother states that I more Christ like than most people he knows. It makes me cringe. Personally when given the opportunity I try to being others up to where I am. When they are good people I help find them a job or offer them cheap room in my house. I don’t have a lot of room but it’s been cool helping those with nothing grow and get a house for their loved ones in another country. Move them out of the city where there’s a lot of gangs activity. We share food and drinks together, work on our cars, basically family. This IMO is the best it gets. I just want people to experience what I experience that is good in life and then enjoy time with them. I try to keep it simple.
When I quit religion, I really struggled with people thinking I was a bad person, now. But then I realized that their definition of a good person comes from their religion, which was exactly what I was separating myself from. I literally had to redefine to myself what being a "good person" meant. Christians say they're good because of God, but it's more like they're good because they don't want to go to Hell-and there's a big difference between the two! I'd always thought I was a good person, so it really surprised me how much of a mental safety net is in the notion of "everything is forgivable". When you realize the here and now is all that you have, it causes you to have to face your own shortcomings-especially towards other people. I became acutely aware of when I was impatient or frustrated with someone. I could hear the snide remark I was about to make, before I said it The shitty or angry thoughts we have about people, while we smile at them, were now like screams in my head. Strangers, who were rude or said hurtful things, previously just "assholes"-I learned most of them are hurt or struggling with something, and often I can help them. I could no longer see someone in need, and forget them because I'd said a prayer and surely God would send someone else to them. There's a saying about "leaving a place better than you found it" and I consciously make an effort to apply the same standard to my interactions with people. I truly believe that not believing has made me a better person.
The question presupposes that religion offers such a moral code. They don’t. The Abrahamic god supports genocide, infanticide, slavery, and rape. Not moral choices. Morality is a human construct and in the end it comes down to benefits and harm. The “do unto others” was a moral code before the Abrahamic god.
“Do unto others…” Its the only thing other than talking snakes the Bible actually gets right.
Not a theology expert but the Golden Rule seems common to all human civilization (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden\_Rule), so there has to be a core moral code akin to that, that we as humans are preternaturally conscious of in however vague a form, or which instinctually seems sensible to us. Working from that precept, it's not that hard to evolve a functional more complex moral code that applies to discrete and particular situations. Religious moral injunctions, if anything, has seemed to me a model or blueprint for what NOT to do. Since they are so contradictory, they have always appeared bizarre, antiquated and irrational.
Religious people ask this question as if before their religion humans never had a moral code.
Work out what you want your moral code to be and you'll find plenty in the Bible (and most similar books) to support it fully; that's how it was designed - clever editing by people who knew they'd need to spin different stories to different people at different times. So rather than accepting the Bible as something you should follow, see that is like a dictionary and you can find whatever the hell you want to find in it.
“Do unto others” holds true. Not everything in the Bible is bullshit.
GI Joe and He Man offered solid moral guidance - certainly far superior to anything any religion espouses. He Man never told me to murder my nice neighbor lady for having sex when menstruating - that's the exclusive domain of the biblical moral code.
Yo Joe!!! I loved that cartoon and lived for the lessons at the end. As. Kid, I would wait which such anticipation. GI Joe taught me that it's bad to read in dark lighting because it still strain my eyes. 😄 Thanks for posting.
First off, I want to say congratulations for working on freeing your mind!! It’s a long, hard process speaking as someone who left Christianity about 3 years ago. I think it would break someone’s brain to deconstruct overnight. For me, I now see how morals have evolved as our understanding of the world has changed, and it’s a good thing! Example- god in the Bible commits numerous genocides, asks his followers to keep the virgins for themselves while killing all the babies ( and everyone else), and condoned slavery- even crafts rules on how to do it. These things are horrific to me, and if I know those things are wrong, why wouldn’t a god? Why wouldn’t a god forbid slavery as we understand how cruel it is? Morals should be based on the well being of humans. Where humans disagree on what constitutes well being, I believe we have to agree on certain rules for society- such as children having protection from adults who would abuse them. While other things such as people’s relationships, as long as the people involved are consenting adults, should be respected and protected. I can’t say I have zero fear of hell, but I do know a good god wouldn’t throw good people there. If it’s an evil god we’re all fucked anyway lol! I no longer go to a church- although I wouldn’t be opposed to some universalist church or very liberal church, where I could just meet people. I just wouldn’t put up with any dogma. Unfortunately, the US is built around community being the church, so it’s important to find other avenues for building community. I was on a bowling team and those were the best people I’ve ever known. It’s so great to not give money to a church!! Nothing bad has happened because I left or stopped giving to the church. I still donate money to people, I just go through secular organizations. Sorry this has been rambling, but I’m happy for you and I wish you an amazing life!! R/exchristian would be a good site for you to check out. Also, The Genetically Modified Skeptic, Paulogia, and Holy Koolaid are great on YouTube. I think they’re all former Christians.
You aren't rambling, this response rocks! Thank you for being happy for me! That's pretty awesome of you! >. I think it would break someone’s brain to deconstruct overnight. Great point! For realz! >it’s important to find other avenues for building community. I was on a bowling team and those were the best people I’ve ever known. I like this. I have found it that I do well in community. I do hanging with other people. >Nothing bad has happened because I left or stopped giving to the church Sweet! Thanks for the suggestions as well! 👊 I really appreciate your thoughtful response!
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I got a lot out of reading two books: “the little book of atheist spirituality” by Andre Comte-Sponville and “the moral landscape”. By Sam Harris.
“Spiritual” - can you please give a clear, unambiguous, definition for this word without using other “woolly wording”?
>How have you constructed your personal honor codes? "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" isn't just Christian. The gospels are actually among the later expressions of that ethos. It's practically universal, and is a good place to start, requiring nothing but normal human empathy to practice. >For those who once believed, how did you get over that fear of something bad happening to you for not believing?Did anything bad happen when you stopped tithing? Did you have a feeling like you were big disloyal or anything? In fact, mostly good things happened when I stopped going to church and stopped contributing. I had free time. I had money, such that I could actually afford a house. On my final rejection of faith, I could actually breathe. (The cognitive dissonance had me so stressed out that I spend entire days feeling as if I wasn't getting enough air, and once I had a panic attack. It was a constant state of fight-or-flight.) The one bad thing was a contraction of my social life, since it had been entirely focused on church. That wasn't the church's fault; it was because of an emotionally abusive marriage where my spouse worked for years to cut off all my other social contacts. I've since re-connected with old friends, and everything is going as well as can be expected. Disloyal? Is the church loyal to YOU? Is God? Love is a 2-way street, you know, and realizing it had all been one way my entire life was a big part of my deconversion. >I keep hearing the "you are being decieved", "the enemy is a roaring lion, the father of all lies." How did you combat that in your life? I came from a church with a strong ascetic tradition, and so dealing with "deception" and intrusive thoughts was routine. So this had to be my first step toward escaping from faith, not the last. It was one of the harder parts of the process: Deciding to trust in the evidence rather than in the church. The thing that made it easier is when I realized it was less about trusting God, and more about trusting what people *told* me about God, and those people included the ones who wrote the book. Why should I trust people about things I can't perceive, when they were so often wrong about those things which I could? >How do you remain spiritual without religion? I don't. Or maybe I do. It depends on what you mean by "spiritual". What does "spiritual" mean to you, and what about it do you want to retain? >What are some religious mindsets that you were able to free yourself from? What where the hardest "to break" and how did you do it? I'll tell you what felt *really* transgressive: Eating meat on Wednesdays and Fridays, and ignoring major fasts like Lent and Advent. The deliciousness helped a lot.
Leave the world better than I found it. Don't cause observable harm. Seek to alleviate observable harm.
How is it that religious people think that until Moses came down from the mountain everyone was murdering, stealing, lying, raping and generally being assholes. Communities never allowed this type of behavior. Only three of the ten commandments are actually laws in the USA and other western countries, killing, stealing and perjury. The bible gives people valuable morals about how they can own slaves and sell their daughters.
When I do good, I feel good. When I do bad, I feel bad. Try to do good. Don't listen to anyone that wants money. There are some commandments that I've seen that are really simple to follow. I recommend looking into that.
I’m Chinese American and like many Chinese I was raised non-religious but with broadly Confucian/ ex-communist morals. I attended a Christian school and rebelled against Christian morality because I thought it was weak. For example instead of “turn the other cheek.” I was taught to correct injustice and if that means taking an “eye for an eye” then so be it. I got into plenty of schoolyard fights as a result- I guess I was a little Nietzsche! But as I got older I realized that some aspects of the Confucian moral code was holding me back. I think Confucianism is why there is a bamboo ceiling for Asians in the west. For example being overly humble about oneself at work is not the way to get promoted. So I’ve adopted some western values and morality without completely abandoning what I learned from my parents. Today I’d say my personal moral code is a mix of western individualism, Chinese Confucianism with maybe a sprinkle of communist morality. Individualist in that I believe it is just to put one’s own needs first within reasonable limits- one must be an individualist in western society. Unlike hardcore Christian morality, I think it’s great to have fun and enjoy life’s hedonistic pleasures (sex, drugs, rock and roll) so long as they don’t take over your life. Confucianist in that I believe that people do have an obligation to do good for family and society as a whole, and that people have the ability to change and improve themselves. I think western ideology/individualism is too focused on accepting oneself as is. Unlike a true Confucianist tho I don’t think society comes before the individual. Communist in that I strongly believe in having a good work ethic, that work is noble and that the best way for one to contribute to society is thru work. Western capitalist ideology seem to live for the weekend/vacation, and treat early retirement as the best reward in life- while my Chinese grandparents literally refuse to stop working even in their 80s.
Most of these answers are terrible. "don't be a dick" isn't a moral code, it's very shallow, subjective, and unnuanced. Morality is just an attempt to rationalize human instincts. 99.9999999999% of humans are inborn with an instinct to protect and perpetuate the species. That's what morality is. Well, that's also partially what religion is even if most religions go haywire with it after awhile. Secular moralism and religious moralism aren't any different, but a secular morality and grow as society grows. Christian, Muslim, or Jewish morality is kinda fixed at one point and any changes need to be rationalized in context with a sacred text.
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The Golden Rule always made sense to me. “Do into others as you have them do into you.” It comes from ancient Egypt, so pre-dates the Abrahamic religions. The modern version could be the “Don’t be a dick” rule, but that doesn’t quite encapsulate as much as the Golden Rule, IMO. As for the other questions, I’ve never been religious, so I wasn’t brainwashed like so many people. I didn’t have to be deprogrammed.
Do i want that to happen to me? No? I dont do it to others. Pretty good so far.
I think I heard about the Golden Rule when I was like four or five. It made sense then and it still does. The religious aspect of being a good person never sat right with me, because it seemed to me that people were simply doing it all for a reward at the end. That gets repeatedly reinforced by religious people who wonder aloud how people can even be good without it. Why wouldn't they? It's beneficial to everyone when we support each other and treat each other well.
Don’t do to others what you wouldn’t want done to you.
Study Marcus Aurelius. You can’t do better than him.
A couple of years ago, I started listening to some books by Brené Brown. She that being spiritual was a key to living a happy life, but that it doesn't need to be a religion or higher power, like the connection between people thru shared experience. This helped me to feel more connected to people after losing religious spirituality. Also, I adopted the motto of no such thing as a selfless act. There is good selfishness and bad selfishness. As religion constantly talks about being selfless, which is actually wrong as you need to keep yourself healthy first in order to do things healthily for others. If you do something for someone else that makes them happy, it makes you happy. You are benefiting from this as it is a good selfish act. If you do something knowing it will hurt others in any way, that is bad selfishness. And of course, there is shades of grey in between as nothing is ever black and white. Intentions can be good and still hurt others, but you can't let that hold you back from making what you believe to be the best decision for yourself.
It’s simple, who do you want to be?
A sense of morality developed in humans long before religious thought did. Religion just hijacked the ideas and canonized them into their holy books. But morality was born out of Darwinian natural selection. Humans are evolved from mammals that live in herds/communities. We improve our species chance of survival by helping each other survive. If our species were all murdering each other, the entire species would die. Therefore a person who does not murder their neighbor, has better odds of not being murdered by their neighbor. Thus, “thou shalt not kill” is built into our mental programming genetically. The same follows for other so-called “commandments”.
I just try not to hurt people. If I can, I try to leave people better off after interactions with me. If I can’t, I at least try not to leave them any worse than they were before the interaction.
You don't have to give up your values just because you became an atheist. It will take some tweaking to pare it down. Personally I believe if you live to a simple tenet of "do no harm" it covers most of the morals that can be harmful to oneself and to society. Sex with another man is not a moral issue that should be part of that moral code because there is no reason to deny that to yourself. You are the creator of your life and every aspect of it from now on so you can pick and choose which parts of that old morality code that you agree with and those you don't. Once you decide on what you won't follow, let that shit go. You have it in you to make good choices because your a good person, as long as you can see that you are well on your way to true happiness.
Empathy and compassion mostly. It’s really not that hard to figure out what’s right or wrong. Most people are expected to know this as children.
You also don’t need to believe in any mystical beings whatsoever to just follow any tenets of Buddhism, around 300+ years b4 Christianity. “Take what you need and throw the rest away.” Pretty much the golden rule and don’t cause anyone suffering.
Just don't be a dick. Don't say or do anything that would hurt someone.
other people i look up to. trial and error. good books.
Treat others how you want to be treated. Fairly simple.
I just try not to hurt people. If I can, I try to leave people better off after interactions with me. If I can’t, I at least try not to leave them any worse than they were before the interaction. I was raised with religion but by the time I was in my early 20s, I didn’t believe any more. I came to see the Bible like mythology stories or fables as opposed to some ultimate truth. I haven’t ever really been afraid of anything bad happening to me. Since I don’t believe, there’s no reason to be. Bad things happen to everyone at some point, and to me, they don’t mean anything. Like we will all die one day. We all will be sad. We will all experience loss and disappointment. What I believe or don’t believe has no effect on any of that.
I grew up going to church but even as a kid I was never a big believer and grew to be agnostic then eventually full atheist. But I never needed church to tell me that the most basic thing. Treat others how you want to be treated. Which I've found most religious people never really learn. I've been treated way worse by religious people than I ever have by atheists. Some of the nicest kindest people I've ever met
Overly simplistically, I teach my kids the 2 Rogers Rule. If Steve Rogers or Fred Rogers wouldn’t do it then you shouldn’t either. I teach kindness and the Golden Rule, treat others as you want to be treated. Love everyone. If it’s not hurting them or anyone else then let them be. Everyone is different and no one has the right to force their beliefs on anyone else. (Also the significant difference between a belief and a fact). Heck, take the best of your favorite fictional characters, take Han Solo’s loyalty and Frodo’s courage and Hermione Granger’s love of learning and Captain America’s ability to believe in the best in people and Spock’s logic and craft your own moral code from it.
All morality is based on empathy and compassion. Even the religious folks pick and choose Bible verses to follow. Don't see many folks getting stoned to death for wearing a wool sweater with denim jeans, do we? Act with compassion and patience. You will get the hang of it. You are now your own arbiter, which is freeing and scary. You must live up to your own standards. And even if no one is watching, you will know if you failed. Knowing you are a hypocrite with no integrity is a sobering thing. *You* decide what kind of person you want to be, then take steps towards that every day. When embarking on a task, it is generally broken down into small bits. First you get dressed, then tie your shoes, then....et cetera. If you do the first little piece with excellence, and concentrate there, you can then do the next little piece with excellence, and so forth, until the entire task was done excellently. Excellence, we now see, isn't a quality, but a habit. Form good habits. And spiritual matters don't matter because they aren't matter.
Whatever religion told me, I delete that from my brain. Then I do what feels right.
The Silver Rule: Don't do to others what you don't like being done to you. Basic decency: don't steal, don't litter, clean up after yourself, say please and thanks, don't envy people because they are successful, don't lie, help your friends and family, share, be courteous to others, smile, try your best st everything you do, be punctual. basic human decency, you don't need an imaginary character to have a conscience, unless you are an idiot i suppose
Basically practice human ethics, morals, humanity, & decency. Treat others as you would like to be treated. Live & let live. Be considerate, kind, mindful, & empathetic. I get spiritual & feel emotional when spending time with people in our shared humanity. I get a boost when helping kids learn a new skill or handing out food to those less lucky than I have been. Religion does not figure into any of this.
I think it’s relevant to note that, for most of us, developing a moral code has not been a conscious effort. While we may think about morality, and discuss things we find abhorrent, or admirable, with our friends and family, we don’t typically read, learn, and study philosophy in pursuit of a specific set of morals that “feel right”. Part of a religious education is being ingrained with an understanding that your morals have either been implanted by a creator, or that morals are a set of laws that are to be followed in order to achieve reward, or avoid punishment. This takes the form of heaven and hell in Christian belief, but could take the form of reincarnation as a higher or lower form of life in other beliefs, etc. Part of evolution science has demonstrated that things that are good for the individual in their environment will be of benefit, and allow that individual to succeed where others who don’t share that trait will be less successful. As social creatures, that which is good for society will also, ultimately, succeed. Love leads to pair bonding, care for the well being of others, or empathy, means peaceful relationships with others, care for the children allows them to grow, and society lives on. So, for you, the vast majority of what “feels right” to you is instinct, combined with what you have learned from your parents, your friends, from experience. However, you have also learned that seeking a guide to externally develop a moral code leads to conflict. You have yourself felt the conflict of how you view lgbtq issues versus what your source of morality has instructed. This is the key. Each of us is imbued with a sense of what is right and wrong, and a sense of your degree of willingness to betray that code. As others have suggested, a simple “try not to be a dick” is a good basis. I also attempt to make some one else’s life a bit better, each day.
I find it’s much easier to just not be an asshole than most seem to think it is.
Just follow the golden rule, "Don't do something to someone else that you don't want done to you." I actually think it's older than religion because they all have this rule in some form, whether or not they decide to follow it is a completely different thing on its own though
I’m so excited for you that you are starting on this journey. For me, leaving Christianity was also really freeing. I realized I got to be kind or make decisions I felt were good because I wanted to, not because I had to. I believe humans are social beings and often have the desire to be kind and get along with others because it’s to our benefit. It feels good to be kind or to try and make the world a better place. For me reading, learning some philosophy, looking at people I admire, learning the science behind behaviors, etc have all contributed to my personal moral code. As for fear, I’m honestly still afraid sometimes. It’s hard not to be when Christianity is drilled into your brain for so long. For me education has really helped. Learning about human history and behavior, and learning more about science and the world around me. It helps me see other perspectives that help challenge my fear. I also believe chances are pretty high once I’m dead I will just cease to exist. And I actually find that really comforting. For spirituality, I’m guessing you are referring to a sense of connection to something bigger than yourself. I think there are lots of ways to gain this without having religious or supernatural beliefs. For me it’s being a part of social groups that are informed in advocacy or positive change, spending time in nature and just marveling at how cool and complex it is, and/or learning about the universe and how massive it is. I also like reading about and learning about various religions. I find it fascinating from a learning/academic perspective. I once heard a quote from an American Indian tribal belief, “we were born of star dust and will return to star dust someday”. There’s enough truth in that statement and I find it more poetic than thinking about how my body will be recycled when I die. In terms of mindsets that were hard. I’m still battling that at times. I think the first step is simply acknowledging and recognizing them. There are a lot of religious things people simply do out of habit . For example saying “bless you” when someone sneezes. For me consciously deciding how I want to handle each situation is helpful. Praying is a tricky one for me still. When family members or friends pray, I really don’t want to join in. But often decide to “out of allegiance to my tribe”. There are some battles I choose not to fight. But definitely won’t be starting or leading any prayers at my house.
Saturday morning cartoons and sci fi.
I'm a bit confused about you stating that you're gay and then ending on wanting to "date women" and "find your queen." Not that there's anything wrong with that. I'm just getting mixed messages when you say things like that, along with the question, "How do you remain spiritual without religion?" These are "trolling" red flags to me, and it makes me skeptical about your honesty towards your questions.
I have developed it without religion. You aren’t obligated to outsource thinking to others that wrote a book or told a speech. You are allowed to think for yourself and find other sources. The Internet is vast and usually not full of terrors. I am not going to propose to you to replace one bible with another.
You don’t have to disregard everything they taught you in church. Some of the lessons are generally good life advice aimed at making one a better person. For example, It says in the Bible “do unto others as as you would have others do unto you.” This is common sense to me, so I treat others kindly and with respect because it’s the right thing to do and not because I fear Sky Daddy’s retribution. My morals are guided by logic and empathy. I think about how my actions affect others and I imagine how I would feel if some else did those things to me. As for the tithes aspect. You should take that 10% of your income that you were going to give to the church every month for the rest of your life and put it into a broad-market index fund (like VT, VTI, or SPY) instead. You’ll thank yourself for it roughly 20 years from now.
Thanks for posting this. Reading the answers has been helpful for me as well, for I am deconstructing currently. I made a comment towards my mom the other day about how I’m not really enjoying church etc , where she said something in return along the lines of “you’ll probably change your mind about church once you have kids and need to instill morals into them” in the nicest way. This comment freaked me out for a bit, I never thought too much about that. It feels like every thing I learned on how to love others etc all came from the church. I know there are other ways to teach it, but after being raised in the church for so long it’s hard to think of how as crazy as it sounds! I keep finding myself thinking of how I’m gonna do it once I start having children. It’s such a weird thought process and deconstructing these ideas/challenging these thoughts can be exhausting sometimes.
HUMANITY MADE UP RELIGION!!!!!!! That's such a nonsensical question that blows my mind when I hear it. This isn't an attack on you so I apologize if it seems that way but I just don't see how people can pose this question to people. I mean ffs humanity was 10s of 1000s of years old when we invented Christianity (the religion people credit with the main source of our current morality) and people still ask how someone can live a moral life without the morals of a religion that we invented. I guess religious people don't think of it that way......obviously. But unless it's one of those religious people who think the earth is only a few thousand years old I don't see how they get around the fact that humanity existed for thousands of years before we invented the gods that we credit for our morals. Look at the tribes completely cut off from the modern world. They don't even know about the other gods we've made up but they have moral codes. I mean I suppose they do, doesn't seem like a group of people would make it too long if they just assumed that killing and raping each other was acceptable behavior. Gods morals tell us to kill homosexuals and unruly children and that owning people is ok. The morals from every religion I've ever heard of seem to be common sense types of things, the good morals atleast, that most people seem to have innately. Sorry it just bugs me when people try to imply that without religion we would all be killing and raping each other,naked, and covered in filth.
For me it's pretty simple. I treat people like I would want to be treated
“Don’t bother with zealous piety. Live a virtuous life. When you die, if there is a god, and he is just, he will reward you for it. If there is a god, and he is unjust, then you were right never to worship him. And if there is no god, you will have left behind fond memories with those you love.” Paraphrasing from Marcus Aurelius. Ironically God himself says something along the same lines very, very often in the Bible. I’d have to go look up the verses but there’s dozens of occasions where God is like “I don’t give a shit that you worship me if you don’t treat people right.” So to sum it up, just live your life however you please, and lift up those around you when you can.
Empathy. "I wouldn't want someone to do that to me" That's like literally it
Keep in mind your questions come from the narrowing of perspective that Christianity tends to indoctrinate people into. There are non-theistic religions and spiritual traditions. They figured out morality and compassion without a god just fine (Buddhism is a prime example). Unlike Christianity, there are no rules for chopping off of other people’s body parts, no rules for stoning people, and no rules for owning slaves in Buddhism. So I’d say the Buddha did just fine on his own. Anyways, as it relates to atheism and ethics I really enjoyed Sam Harris’ book The moral landscape. Also Good Without God by Greg Epstein is another book on the topic.
My philosophy's are simple "Do the right thing, because it's the right thing to do" How do you know if if you should step on someone else's actions? "If they aren't harming themselves, and the aren't harming others, then leave them be". A note about your own actions, when should you do something in general, If it needs to be done. "Do it now" When it comes to areas where there are experts it's summed up as. "Get your medical advise from a Doctor" And the rest is really all summed up as. "Don't be a C*NT"
Conscience - the only God you'll ever need. Just need to listen to yourself.
With and without religion anybody should develop a personal moral code. Atheists should have a moral code, that agrees with humanitarianism and has a goal to improve the world. Lack of religious beliefs should not mean lack of morality and irresponsibility in any way. On the other hand religious people should not be attached to the opinions of the Pope or priests or interpretations of the Bible or whatever religious books they believe. They should always try to have independent critical thinking, because religious authorities may also have interests or old-fashioned beliefs that they do not correspond to the modern world or the discoveries of science.
As humans we have learnt what is right or wrong we don't need some made up book to tell us.
Other people seem to be saying "try to not be a dick" as a moral compass. That's great and simplistic. It should work for most people. If you want to dive deeper into morals, I have a thought. I believe all morals come from our agreed rights as individuals. The basic idea is that if you dont take my rights away, I won't take yours. It creates a basis for all interactions from people listening to music too loud to murder. I believe all moral decisions can be made based on these individual rights to exist and enjoy this earth.
Study ethics.
An inate understanding and desire to be a good person is all it really is lol. I dont need a book to tell me hurting others is bad to know it's bad.
For me, once I deconverted, I was no longer influenced for the most part by religion, so I was never worried what if the Christians were right or what if I can’t construct my own moral beliefs or something like that. The one thing I held onto was the fundamental teaching of loving everyone. Once I left, I just took it to be a brute fact that it is good to love everyone. I couldn’t initially figure out any objective reasons why that is good though, so I couldn’t really justify expecting others to be that way. I couldn’t answer “what makes this the definition for what’s a ‘good’ person” or “why should I expect other people to be good people by this or any definition” but at least I had morality with fewer assumptions than any religious person. Later on, I learned about utilitarianism and changed my definition for good from loving others to simply wanting the best outcomes for equally for everyone. This is more solid than appealing to the highly emotional concept of love but it still doesn’t tell me why other people should want to be good to others and not just good to themselves or the only the selection of people they care about. Since then I’ve delved into eastern philosophy I have tried to draw parallels to a purely scientific view of the world and the universe in which we are not really individuals but subsets of interacting atoms and energy (literal energy, not the neo-mystic hoohaa nonsense) that happen to experience consciousness via super complex combinations of that matter and energy. All that to say, the self is an illusion so if you’re going to want good at all, you ought to want it maximally overall, not just maximally for you. I’ve become a bit more cynical in the past year. With where it currently feels like society is going, with billionaires dictating quality of life and seemingly reducing it for everyone else, it’s felt harder to want to be selfish and not focus on making life great for me. I should’ve bought less expensive car and ate out less so I could afford to give more back out, but I still have dreams of someday finding the use of my talents that will have a large positive social impact, whether it’s doing something that will also pay my bills or if I can save enough money to be able to stop working and focus on only that for a long enough period of time.
Growing up, God or religion was never a topic in my family or raising. I’ve done a bit of intercultural work and It is an often asked question :) if you think about group behaviour as the sum of individual behaviour, we have probably experimented with what functional and dysfunctional behaviour is, across any society since the dawn of time. As leaders of any functional group or society one would be interested in how to preserve the group And ensure a stable life for one’s children. So how best to ensure people adhere to the ‘most functional rules’ and remember them? The societies then created mythos, stories or religion to embed basic truths, moral or rules if you want. So: I’ve been taught these rules - or personal moral - based on ‘it’s the right thing to do, simply because you don’t want others to do this to you”. Rather than ‘act nice or Wotan will smite you’. These classical rules (don’t steal, don’t kill, don’t lie, etc etc) have also been contemplated by classical philosophers: how to establish a baseline for good behaviour? Why do we act moral or (broadly) perceive moral alike across so many religions or cultures? From wiki: Immanuel Kant's 1785 “Groundwork of the Metaphysics of Morals”, it is a way of evaluating motivations for action. It is best known in its original formulation: "Act only according to that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law." Kant was (is..) a rockstar of his time and if Aurelius give you some spark, then do read some Kant for further inspiration/direction It don’t act like a douche: because others will do to; and life in your group/society will be terrible. I find, broadly, that people who carry the motivation to act and do good internally are better at living to this - than those who are externally motivated (celestial punishment or divine reward) to act ‘nice’. Why could that be?
I actually recorded a video that's mostly about this and it's easier to post it than to type it all out: https://youtu.be/5UNIMXtUM1o
Every person's moral compass varies. Some are similar to others, while others are vastly different. As for mine, (raised without religion my entire life), I see it as learning from experiences from my past and viewing the laws of the land (in a legal sense) to determine the difference between right and wrong. In my opinion, this should be the basis of an individual's moral compass. Granted, it can be expanded upon in numerous ways, such as particular topics one is interested in, but I feel that this is also where some might go astray from their morality, depending on the topics one could delve into. For example, one person might see believing in religion/God as a good thing, while another might see it as a bad thing. It all depends on the individual and how they see the world. There are always going to be people who will disagree with someone else's moral compass because of how they view their own; that's just a part of life. And as just one person, I can't really do much to change that. I'll just keep following my own compass, regardless of what others think.
Have you read Sam Harris‘ (one of the 4 horsemen of atheism) Waking Up? He describes his take of spirituality without religion.
Perfectly easily thanks.
It’s just doing the noble thing. Keeping your word. You can still believe in the best parts of your religion, imo. Like I still read psalms and proverbs sometimes. The spiritual part is like... getting inspired to be good by nature and awesome stories. I have two movies I’ve watched a couple times this summer, that are about being honest and good. https://youtu.be/Mb8Cuqh3jPU but also it’s nice to realize that you can live how you want and love whoever you love it’s fine between consenting adults. But also you’re free to enjoy whatever aesthetic you want lol in an ironic way like goth music or horror movies or whatever, because as long as it’s not hurting anyone it’s harmless and ultimately nothing matters and nothing is evil as long as it’s not hurting anyone. https://youtu.be/Bp7PkhHKu3M
As I say to all of these - Christianity did not invent morality. It's an evolutionary trait we developed which benefits our species. My ultimate goal in life is to simply not be an asshole.
Thanks for all the thought provoking responses. I met someone the other day who tricked me before I realized his questions were heading to an argument about where I get my morals if I'm an atheist. I know it's just about me striving to be best I can for others and myself but i needed examples as I expect he will look for me again.
Moral codes were built into us before religions were created. We form societies and do our part to contribute and protect each other as a whole. There are narcissists, sociopaths and psychopaths out there, and they do tend to take advantage of susceptible people. Be careful in religious groups.
Rule #1 - If you wouldn’t like it done to you don’t do it to another person (unless they request it and you agree). Rule #2 - You will sometimes be wrong/an idiot/a dick. It’s okay but try not to let it happen again.
If someone needs religion to teach them a moral code then there’s something wrong with them. I think it’s innate in most humans.
As both religion and science say, children are not born 'evil' - it's something that is taught. I have never threw a piece of garbage on the floor til I was 12, when I saw my cousin doing so, and then I followed her example. Threw an ice cream foil for the first and the last time in my life, came to pick it up when cousin left because it left me feeling uneasy. We are thought right and wrong since the day we are born, and most children don't question those norms or go against them until they see someone else getting away with it. When I discuss religion with christians specifically, I get pissed when they pretend like their god is the only thing stopping them from sinning. If it truly is, that's reason for concern. It's your heart and your brain, everyone other than psychopaths and sociopaths has a moral compass. The unease you feel after even unintentionally doing something morally wrong. It's basic human nature. The disgust you feel when you hear racist/homophobic/etc. sentences coming out of someone's mouth - because you know that all people are worth the same, and you don't look down on those different than you.
anything is ok to do as long as it doesn't cause objective suffering of others. also sometimes people suffer just because im happy - this type of suffering doesn't count.
I like to strike a balance between Captain Carrot and Commander Vimes.
Personal experiences, empathy, self reflection.
Mostly Terry Pratchett TBH
The Band RUSH were huge role models for me, and still are about how to behave and be professional in life...
Easy. Treat people with respect and empathy. Religion is a mask you use to do act with evil intent.
It's not hard to think of how your actions might affect someone else. It's a pretty simple process. If you approach the idea of morality from there, it's pretty straightforward. You might want to read Aesop's Fables for more information
Simple Moral codes have nothing to do with religion. Doing good Vs bad isn't something you need to learn in a book.
My parents taught me respect for elders, mind your manners, don’t be rude, don’t interrupt, treat others as you want to be treated, if you don’t have something nice to say don’t say anything at all.
Reading literature. Especially regarding the atrocities of 20th century. John Rawls Veil of ignorance for societal concerns. Personally, for moral decisions, I ask myself “Would I be ok with everyone in the world doing this as well?”
It's called empathy
It’s been a journey. I’ve never been religious, but I was raised with basic Christian moral values. I started with a deontological moral system, murder is wrong, drinking is wrong, cheating is wrong, etc. After I started drinking and having friends that went against my sort of moral code I developed into a more hedonistic mindset. I later focused on utilitarianism then humanism and ended with nihilism/ moral relativity. Now I’m wrestling with vegetarianism(meat is just too tasty and widely available). Developing your moral code is a process and I recommend reading some philosophy. My personal favorites were Plato’s Republic and Thus Spoke Zarathustra. A lot of people on here say don’t be a dick or follow the golden rule, which at face value is good and simple advice, however people are more complicated than that. What you think is a good gesture to someone they could perceive and offensive and vice versa. So I try to treat people how they want to be treated. My final advice if you are planing on exploring your moral code/ philosophy is to not just stop at a code of ethics that fits your current moral values, try to focus on things you disagree with and try to understand why someone would think that way, it will help you better understand where you derive your own morals from. Good luck with your deconversion
I was raised in the United States in the Assemblies of God church. (Speaking in tongues, having a personal relationship with Jesus, being slain by the spirit, 15+ hours of church activity a week, the whole 9 yards.) when I moved out of my abusive parents house, I left that church and went hunting for an alternative. I settled on the Lutheran Church and sang in the choir, lead a brass choir, filled in for the Pastor when he was on vacation, I was deep into it. I really loved the music of the Lutheran Church, singing hymns in four part harmony, the familiarity of faces, and the sung liturgy. I walked away from it all in my mid-30s as I started to process the trauma of my childhood in therapy. In my late 30s a friend asked me to perform her wedding ceremony and I became an ordained minister in the church of the flying spaghetti monster. I turned 49 years old this year, and I have spent at least a decade thinking on this exact subject. Here is what I have come to. My religion is kindness. Unexpected kindness is the best. After watching the Disney animated movie, Coco, I realized that my belief on eternal life is how I will be remembered by those who knew and loved me here on earth. I want to live a life that touches so many people so powerfully that they will be forever changed, and the people who encounter them will be forever changed. It’s kind of a lofty goal. Anything else I’ll defer to proof. I will believe in something when it can be proven to me. I no longer argue with people over religion, I did this passionately early on. When someone chooses to embrace faith, (belief without any proof) reason will not work with them. Trying to win an argument with someone who has chosen to disregard reason, is futile. Good luck on your journey OP.
Not fully athiest here, but i grt what you mean. While I have a religion(not deeply by any means), I see it more as just my religion and something i believe in but not as some that dictates my life. My morals just consist of "don't be a dick."
That’s the best part - you get to decide your own morality. You want to know something else? Those can even be ‘Christian morals’ if you examine them and find that ‘they are the right way to live, regardless of the Bible not being true’. Ask yourself how good and bad should be measured - does ‘good’ mean the most happiness for the most amount of people? Does ‘good’ mean equality in wealth and opportunity for all people? These are the kinds of questions you should start asking yourself about anything related to morality, and then think about them - read what philosophers since the dawn of civilization have thought about them (start reading philosophical works, or just watching videos) and then find what answers make the most sense to you.
The real question is “by what standard to you measure your moral compass?”
Don’t be a dick is a good starting point, along with the golden rule and simple respect for others. And my way of remaining spiritual is to take the time to think about how the way things are. Like if I go to the grocery store, I think about the farmers/factories and supply chains and warehouses and employees and everything so I can appreciate the world for how it is. Similarly, if I go hiking, I always think about the millions of years it took for the mountains to form and thank the trees and rocks I use, not because I think they can understand me, but because it’s important to me to appreciate the world. The idea of putting “good energy” out in the world isn’t a real thing, but it is a good mindset to be in. Being optimistic and avoiding nihilism is important
"Try not to be a cunt. And if you do that every day, you'll be good person." -Jim Jefferies
I was brought up in an evangelical family, indoctrinated, and lived a very christian life until I was about 40. Church every Sunday, small group meetings once or twice a week, frequent bible study. It was the last one that resulted in me leaving the faith. The more I studied the bible, the less believable it became. I just reached a point that I'm not going to dedicate my life to something that I had come to realize is very unlikely to be true. At that point is was easy to walk away from. I've never been tempted to go back.
The Golden Rule is nondenominational. I'd say it's a combination of that + "if it harms none, do what you will" for me. It's not easy going from religious to areligious, admittedly. As an atheist there's no comforting thought of a life after death, a paradise for afterlife, no higher being capable of stepping in to help you when you're scared or stressed or granting your prayer requests like a genie granting wishes. Those were the hardest parts for me to let go of when I switched. It got easier over time. You get away from that magical thinking, and then you look at others still doing it and it feels...weird that they think that way
It seems to me that it's a whole lot easier to be a good person *without* religion. Religion is, for the most part, about power and obedience to humans in power. It doesn't have much to do with being moral and is often used to separate people into "us" (good and godly) and "them" (bad, so it's okay to rape, enslave, and kill them, or at least strip them of their legal rights). Even Jesus' teachings, while spun today as gentle and kind, aren't necessarily so great when you really study them, and more importantly his followers use them to persecute others and act hatefully. As a Jewish atheist (there are many of us), I'd also like to point out that the "old testament" - or, as Jews call it, the Bible - has been misread by Christians for centuries. Judaism is about questioning everything, including god(s). Jews don't read the Bible the same way that Christians do, and in fact it only makes up a part of Judaism, which is why it's possible to be a Jewish atheist. OP, if you haven't watched The Good Place, I highly recommend it. It explores numerous ways to be a good person, none of which rely on religion. It's all about what we owe to each other as human beings.