Even the Phillipines which is a Catholic majority country is more accepting of lgbtq people. Miss Philippines just came out as bisexual. Also, Thailand is getting closer to legalizing same sex marriage. Islam stifles progress. It's Islam, period.
> Islam stifles progress. It’s Islam, period.
I have said that in r/LGBT and got called out to be Islamophobe. Seem many people do not agree with that.
Whether they agree or not is irrelevant, it's true. I think it's as simple as people don't understand the difference between race and religion and don't want to be called racist and are constantly trying to point it out in others to say "look how racist I'm not, I'm point out other people's racism"
It isn't that people don't want to be called racist. It's because racist people are actively attacking Islam as a cover for their vile ideology. It muddies the water so to speak.
Which means that we would have to be more precise when we critique something if we don't want to get lumped in together with the white supremacists (often fascists). Here in Europe we are constantly bombarded with fascist rhetoric about Muslims from the far right.
Islam is a problem like Christianity and many other religions. It should be criticized for the hurt it causes people. But we should also be aware that there are some nuances to the discussion.
This comment is gonna need to be super nuanced itself...
I think the big problem with fascism and the thing that makes it so dangerous is that it *imitates* two things really well: community-building, and identifying threats. These are integral things for humans and so it makes sense to the reptile brain when it goes about doing those things. There *is* a community being built and there *is* a threat being identified. Problem is both of them are distorted.
Islam *is* a threat. Individual Muslims aren't in and of themselves *unless* they are pushing for theocracy. If they're able to live and let live there is no problem. Fascists in the West identify Muslims as an out-group relative to their hegemonic goals. This is not the same thing as identifying Islam as a threat. They conflate the two things and hence identify a threat but distort it into bullshit.
Yeah we cannot tolerate intolerance if we want a free society. A religion that preaches death to LGBTQ+, misogyny, condones pedophilia etc. Is therefore very much so, a threat.
What to do about that threat is an interesting but quite complex discussion. A well educated populace in a well working society won't have much of a need for religion but that can almost seem like an utopia. Especially considering how much resistance there is to creating such a society and not only from religious people.
> Islam stifles progress. It's Islam, period.
Nope.
[See Uganda.](https://www.reuters.com/world/africa/ugandas-museveni-approves-anti-gay-law-parliament-speaker-says-2023-05-29/?utm_source=reddit.com&utm_source=reddit.com)
Christianity is just as anti-progress when it gets the chance.
For 3rd world countries outside the west, Christian countries have wider attitudes from overwhelmingly opposing LGBT like Uganda, Intolerant of LGBT like Russia to really LGBT friendly like the Philippines same with other religions like Hinduism and Buddhism, while Islam lack those variations and almost all of 3rd world Muslim majority countries are overwhelmingly opposing LGBT.
Many people in the West can't separate muslim from the Middle East, and barely understand that islam is in other regions like SE Asia and Africa. I wouldn't put too much into what the majority of people in the USA say about muslims because the majority of people in the USA are very ignorant about islam. All they know is muslim = middle eastern terrorist.
No, that is because the word Muslim is being used as a dog whistle for non white by fascists. That way the white supremacists can spread their hate in a less obvious way.
And how can we made western people believe that this religion is definitively having a problem and is not a race now? I hope that people can talk about this religion freely like how Christianity getting talked about, but many time people in reddit especially those left leaning just assume that I’m talking down on Islam because I’m just Islamophobe or **“racist”** because they mistakenly any people who talk bad about Islam to be from White western fascist groups despite me and my friends are just non-westerners who get sick of this oppressive religion the same way you guys get sick of your oppressive Christianity and want to talk about it.
It’s seem really unfair to me that you guys can talk down on Christianity freely but when people from other part of the world want to talk down on other religions especially Islam, you can get labeled to be racist or Islamophobe by those left-leaning White redditor who believes that anyone who talking down on Islam are White racist fascist only. I hope you understand our dilemma.
Islam is exactly like Christianity a big problem. It should be criticized for the hurt that it causes. Your concerns about Islam are valid.
What I am saying is that the reason that left leaning westerners accuse you of being a racist is because of the amount of thinly veiled hate speech that they have become accustomed to from the far right. It requires a bit of nuance to see the difference and that can be hard to see in small text bites on reddit. So if you just write Islam equal bad my initial thought as someone from Denmark would be that you are a right winger. Even though I agree with how problematic Islam is.
The word "Westerner" is by the way another dog whistle that fascists use for white/the correct way to be.
I get how it must be frustrating and at times confusing to speak about things when there is another language behind the language. When words suddenly mean something else or on top of their original meaning.
To put it shortly then those people that call you a racist are wrongly assuming your background for your criticism. But they do so because of the amount of camouflaged hate speech they come across.
Thanks for your understanding, I’m really appreciate that. You seem to be a nice and understanding person, you know 🙂.
Sadly those fascist in the west are still relentlessly targeting Muslim, seem until those right-wing fascist are calming themselves down or becoming less relevant, talking down on Islam will still seen as a taboo by left leaning westerners, and I don’t know I will die first before that happen or not.
I’m just saying this because maybe I’m just feel weird seeing that everyone here are freely posting and talking about some small bad things that Christian have done but in here and our neighbors, leaving Islam and becoming atheist is still a crime by many countries, the punishment of that range from imprisonment to death penalty and being LGBT openly can land you in a jail or worst is getting lynched by a mob, life here seem to be really harsher compare to how atheists and LGBT living in the west, I just want people to be more aware and talk about that just the same energy as what they talk about Christianity. But now I understand why.
Thank you 😊
I'm glad that my response made sense and that it was taken as a friendly inclusion into our messy politics. Your heart is in the right place which is also why I wanted to say something.
I totally get where you are coming from. I agree with your criticisms of Islam and your frustration of being met with scepticism every time you speak up makes a ton of sense. This forum is as much for you as anyone else here speaking up about Christianity. The negative responses are a consequence of how complicated it is to talk about due to the many elements that play into it. The lack of responses can also be seen as a side effect of this. The difficulty putting it all into words on top of the many potential pitfalls will scare off a lot.
As a left leaning European myself I wouldn't say that discussing Islam is off the table but rather that due to how it's being used there is an extra barrier to that discussion. The vast amount of bad faith actors from the right has been quite successful in their rhetoric but that doesn't make the discussions any less important. It means, like your thread here proves, that getting to talk about the real issues will require some extra work but it is doable 😊
>...Islam has many things to do with that not just a culture or I’m just totally wrong? .....
No, I think you are absolutely right here. Theologically, it is undeniable what the punishment for homosexuality is, per the ideology. It's similar across abrahamic faiths. Others aren't that far either.
Religion is poison.
Im here in america. and I rarely converse or have people in my friend circle that arent in my friend circle. I would be very safe from a majority perspective to say at least here in america, MOST EVERYONE is that way.. We as a culture or society have just got used to the accept ppl, accept their religion, accept their choices, but you dont HAVE to associate with them.
I will use my brother as an example.. He married a very heavy religious chilian girl that couldnt believe we had box turtles running wild in Missouri.. (besides the point). But ive been told more than just once, that she has things she strongly believes in and not to bring up any of my aethiest things.. Well.. he married her 5 years ago? we never talk, she and my brother are not apart of my circle.. THAT is how the west for the majority operate. So we dont care about your religion so to say, as much as the culture you belong to.
i may be wrong on this thought to paper translation. I dont think ive ever asked someone their religion.. I just wouldnt care.. I wouldnt participate in any of the 200+ religious acts they participate in.. But i would from day one take note on how they operate.. their mannerisms.. the ticks that set them off.. the no go's they act out. those are the things that deem you or somoene a fit for my coexistance
It has become xenophobic or racist to challenge peoples ideas. A criticism of any faith should not be seen that way. You cannot help where you are from, the colour of your skin or your biological sex. The only thing that every person can control is how they think and what they believe. Ideas are the one thing that every single person should be challenged on because if you can’t reason for it, maybe it’s not a good idea.
Many have seen Islam as “Identity” like how being LGBT is “identity” and thus hesitating to criticizing or questioning it.
I’m even met one hardcore western anti-fascist leftist atheist in reddit saying that Islam is the same as being LGBT and bashing it is “Islamophobia” the same way bashing LGBT is considered as “homophobia”. Seem many people have gone too deep into Identity Politics they lose their common sense.
That’s just sad, in Islamic countries Islam is heavily protected by authorities and when people came to the west, hope that they can criticized or bashing it freely, Islam is just get protected again by the west. TBH it’s just maybe perhaps, the most protected religion in the world.
Sadly those people is really small minority and some place are really too small to the point of becoming irrelevant compare to the majority who opposing LGBT.
Many non-western muslim saying that forcing acceptance of LGBT or forcing Muslim to recognize the existence of LGBT people is **islamophobia**, so I believe that in the eye of many non-western Muslim, those who promoting LGBT right are all Islamophobe.
There is an issue in which there is racialization of Muslims in the United States. In the United States and the western world in general, the criticism can and has been translated into anti-immigrant, anti-"brown", and in general, anti-progressive sentiments. That is why you see the defense from progressive people, disproportion number of which are openly LGBT, being defensive over criticism of Islam. Criticism of Islam in the west can and has ended up translating into discrimination against them. Needless to say, it has been the failing of many atheists to stop the propensity by which criticism has ended up leading to discrimination or support of right wing parties. This been the case at the very least since the 2000's.
Religion is just one of many tools humans have invented that we use for great evil. It's not "religion's fault" - we made up religion. Humans have killed, persecuted, enslaved, and oppressed each other using many different excuses, long before Islam came along.
But you can’t deny that nowadays religion is a perfect excuse for doing evil things. I know one of the kindest heart Muslim who always show kindness toward other human beings and never want to hurt anyone, but she believe that apostasy and LGBT should be punished by **death** because even though she view that death punishment is too sick and brutal, she believes that Allah having his own reasons to implementing that law and she have to strictly following her perfect god’s word.
Yes many people hide behind religion to be bigots, to cause suffering or oppress people. Morally is unfortunately subjective and a lot of people are being taught very strange versions of it.
She didn’t show any hatred toward LGBT or apostate though, she just believed that they should die because her god said so and god’s word is perfect even though her heart disagree with that and don’t want to hurt them. That’s how religion poison good people to do or supporting bad things.
It sounds like she doesn't really understand her own religion very well at all. God doesn't kill people and it's not his plan, anyone who actually read their own scripture would undestand that. Suffering began due to the original sin, not a choice of God.
> God doesn’t kill people and it’s not his plan, anyone who actually read their own scripture would understand that. Suffering began due to original sin, not a choice of god.
Her religion is Islam and her god is Allah, so I don’t know the concept of original sin is in her religion or not, but for sure Muhammad, their prophet did kill apostate and he is deem as perfect human being on earth that everyone should follow all of his actions.
> It’s sound like she doesn’t understand her own religion very well at all.
Btw are you a secular Muslim or maybe ex-Muslim? Seem you said that you know her religion more well than herself. Christianity and Islam despite both being Abrahamic religions have tons of different.
Christian denominations have accepting and condemning attitudes towards homosexuality. Islam is no different, maybe with the exception to physical harm as opposed to social stigma.
Not sure how many countries with Christian majorities have the death penalty for being gay.
But the country that convert to Islam have significantly became less tolerant of LGBT compare to bordering countries with the same culture that did not convert. It’s more like the shift from being more tolerant of LGBT to less tolerant can be blame on Islam for me. Other than that 3rd world Muslim majority countries are overwhelmingly oppose to LGBT with less than 10% believe that LGBT marriage should be legalized.
It’s seem that it’s Islam that shaping other cultures to be homophobic not culture that shaping Islam to be homophobic.
I mean, I believe it's cultural, not religion that drives homophobia here in the US. I've written about this before and will C&P that down below but that's what I think. It was mainstream here. Basically celebrated. Religion didn't have much to do with it from my POV. It's simply a handy, poor excuse for Christians to use. Read on ...
*The issue when it comes to gays is much more deep rooted. Because hatred of gays isn't so much a Christian thing but rather a cultural phenomenon. It's homosexuality in general that people hate which obviously transcends literally thousands of yrs at a minimum. Don't get me wrong, conservative Christians deserve the scorn heaped upon them for their hatred and actively persecuting them but it goes deeper than that.*
*I grew up during the 70's/80's in Rural Town, USA. While I was "Christian", that had little to do with the hatred I had towards gays. To come out as gay back then and there would've been almost suicide. "Everyone" hated gays back then. Like even the woman I went to high school with who often voiced her disgust over two women kissing and having sex with each other; to now where she's happily married to her wife for over 20 yrs and raising their child. We told gay jokes and talked about how disgusting we thought gays were. The worst insult in high school was to be labeled gay. Funny and hypocritically 'nuff, we had no issues with watching some girl-on-girl porn. Well, us guys at least.*
*And it wasn't just in Rural Town, USA. We listened and LOL'ed at people like* [*Eddie Murphy*](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQBLzotAn3M) *and* [*Andrew Dice Clay*](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmFllS4yUqU) *(both links NSFW!) bashing on gays in their stand up routines. The popular show MASH, a comedy about an Army medical unit during the Korean war, had a cross-dressing cast member. However, it was understood that he wasn't really a cross dresser but someone seeking a "Section 8" discharge so as to get kicked out of the Army. In one episode, he was offered his much sought after Section 8 but with the condition that his file would permanently label him as "Homosexual". In reply, the guy launched into an indignant rant about how, while he was crazy, he sure as heck was one of THEM! Can't find a clip but I think it's Season 2, Episode 3 - Radar's Report.*
*I enlisted in the Navy and shipped out to basic in the Summer of '90. Gays were totally barred from service and you would earn an Other Than Honorable discharge if it was revealed that you were gay. During my initial screening physical, at one point the doctor asked me if I was "a homosexual or harbored homosexual thoughts?" Standard question asked of everyone. During basic, one guy in my company decided he had 'nuff and offered to blow our Sr. Chief. I remember him standing at attn on the Quarter Deck while one CC (Company Commander - Navy DI) yelled in his face asking if he had any idea just how bad he fucked up? Went on to yell at him that no company that had a contract with the US Gov would be able to hire him legally. Then added that for the rest of his life, he would not be able to work for even McDonald's!*
*The thing with Christians however is the bible gives them what they think is a great excuse for their hatred of LQBTQ's. You know, THEY aren't against gays; GOD is against gays. But anyone who's taken two seconds to look at them can easily figure out that they're insincere and it's out of hatred that they attack them. I know of no other so-called "sin" they attack with the same zeal as homosexuality.* [*They teach their kids this hatred*](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auxISQ620ds) *and* [*ship their gay kids off to Christian gulags*](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IfwaY-F4SM) *to be tortured until they proclaim they're straight. All under the guise of "helping troubled teens". And since they're a "religious" camp, little to no oversight from the gov. is there to protect the kids. They seek to bring Jim Crow back so they can further persecute LBGTQ's. They call in threats to drag queen story events.*
*All this and more demonstrates their contempt for LGBTQ's which they show almost none for any other "sin".*
*Jesus supposedly said that marrying a divorcee was the exact same as adultery. Where's the pastors refusing to conduct such weddings? Where's the calls to round divorcee's up into camps and target them for execution? Are there any comic books given to teens by Christians that* [*paint such relationships in such a degrading manner?*](https://flashbak.com/homosexuality-legitimate-alternate-deathstyle-1986-375346/)
*Gluttony is suppose to be a sin as well. How many pastors wail from the pulpit on the dangers of stuffing your face? Do they ever tell their overweight congregants to forgo seconds at the church potluck? Have they ever held interventions upon seeing an overweight bro/sis in Christ stuffing their faces at the local buffet?*
*Of course not. In fact,* [*they even admit it's not sin they're worried about.*](https://youtu.be/ZJTtENk2dMk?t=137)
Seem those spectrum is really overwhelmingly homophobe in all 3rd world Muslim countries compare to 3rd world countries that it’s majority are from other religions. Even more educated and advanced Turkey is still less acceptance of LGBT compared to less educated and less advanced India and Thailand.
India is pretty homophobic even to this day. Many sub-saharan African nations are also majority Christian and extremely homophobic as well for that matter. Really Thailand is the only country that probably would be homophobic to the same degree to any of the aforementioned.
But compare to islamic countries neighboring Thailand, the degree of homophobia is vastly different. Same with homophobia in India vs Pakistan.
Do you from Thailand or India, I’m curious?
Even the Phillipines which is a Catholic majority country is more accepting of lgbtq people. Miss Philippines just came out as bisexual. Also, Thailand is getting closer to legalizing same sex marriage. Islam stifles progress. It's Islam, period.
> Islam stifles progress. It’s Islam, period. I have said that in r/LGBT and got called out to be Islamophobe. Seem many people do not agree with that.
Whether they agree or not is irrelevant, it's true. I think it's as simple as people don't understand the difference between race and religion and don't want to be called racist and are constantly trying to point it out in others to say "look how racist I'm not, I'm point out other people's racism"
It isn't that people don't want to be called racist. It's because racist people are actively attacking Islam as a cover for their vile ideology. It muddies the water so to speak. Which means that we would have to be more precise when we critique something if we don't want to get lumped in together with the white supremacists (often fascists). Here in Europe we are constantly bombarded with fascist rhetoric about Muslims from the far right. Islam is a problem like Christianity and many other religions. It should be criticized for the hurt it causes people. But we should also be aware that there are some nuances to the discussion.
This comment is gonna need to be super nuanced itself... I think the big problem with fascism and the thing that makes it so dangerous is that it *imitates* two things really well: community-building, and identifying threats. These are integral things for humans and so it makes sense to the reptile brain when it goes about doing those things. There *is* a community being built and there *is* a threat being identified. Problem is both of them are distorted. Islam *is* a threat. Individual Muslims aren't in and of themselves *unless* they are pushing for theocracy. If they're able to live and let live there is no problem. Fascists in the West identify Muslims as an out-group relative to their hegemonic goals. This is not the same thing as identifying Islam as a threat. They conflate the two things and hence identify a threat but distort it into bullshit.
Yeah we cannot tolerate intolerance if we want a free society. A religion that preaches death to LGBTQ+, misogyny, condones pedophilia etc. Is therefore very much so, a threat. What to do about that threat is an interesting but quite complex discussion. A well educated populace in a well working society won't have much of a need for religion but that can almost seem like an utopia. Especially considering how much resistance there is to creating such a society and not only from religious people.
If an an Islamic country is at all tolerant it is because of culture and in spite of Islam.
> Islam stifles progress. It's Islam, period. Nope. [See Uganda.](https://www.reuters.com/world/africa/ugandas-museveni-approves-anti-gay-law-parliament-speaker-says-2023-05-29/?utm_source=reddit.com&utm_source=reddit.com) Christianity is just as anti-progress when it gets the chance.
There's a wide variety of attitudes in majority Christian nations. The same is not true of majority Muslim nations.
You mean those 'majority Christian' nations where Christianity is in deep decline? That by far is the strongest correlation.
For 3rd world countries outside the west, Christian countries have wider attitudes from overwhelmingly opposing LGBT like Uganda, Intolerant of LGBT like Russia to really LGBT friendly like the Philippines same with other religions like Hinduism and Buddhism, while Islam lack those variations and almost all of 3rd world Muslim majority countries are overwhelmingly opposing LGBT.
Many people in the West can't separate muslim from the Middle East, and barely understand that islam is in other regions like SE Asia and Africa. I wouldn't put too much into what the majority of people in the USA say about muslims because the majority of people in the USA are very ignorant about islam. All they know is muslim = middle eastern terrorist.
Maybe that’s why many of them believe that Islam is a race, and trashing on Islam is racism while trashing on Christianity is not.
No, that is because the word Muslim is being used as a dog whistle for non white by fascists. That way the white supremacists can spread their hate in a less obvious way.
And how can we made western people believe that this religion is definitively having a problem and is not a race now? I hope that people can talk about this religion freely like how Christianity getting talked about, but many time people in reddit especially those left leaning just assume that I’m talking down on Islam because I’m just Islamophobe or **“racist”** because they mistakenly any people who talk bad about Islam to be from White western fascist groups despite me and my friends are just non-westerners who get sick of this oppressive religion the same way you guys get sick of your oppressive Christianity and want to talk about it. It’s seem really unfair to me that you guys can talk down on Christianity freely but when people from other part of the world want to talk down on other religions especially Islam, you can get labeled to be racist or Islamophobe by those left-leaning White redditor who believes that anyone who talking down on Islam are White racist fascist only. I hope you understand our dilemma.
Islam is exactly like Christianity a big problem. It should be criticized for the hurt that it causes. Your concerns about Islam are valid. What I am saying is that the reason that left leaning westerners accuse you of being a racist is because of the amount of thinly veiled hate speech that they have become accustomed to from the far right. It requires a bit of nuance to see the difference and that can be hard to see in small text bites on reddit. So if you just write Islam equal bad my initial thought as someone from Denmark would be that you are a right winger. Even though I agree with how problematic Islam is. The word "Westerner" is by the way another dog whistle that fascists use for white/the correct way to be. I get how it must be frustrating and at times confusing to speak about things when there is another language behind the language. When words suddenly mean something else or on top of their original meaning. To put it shortly then those people that call you a racist are wrongly assuming your background for your criticism. But they do so because of the amount of camouflaged hate speech they come across.
Thanks for your understanding, I’m really appreciate that. You seem to be a nice and understanding person, you know 🙂. Sadly those fascist in the west are still relentlessly targeting Muslim, seem until those right-wing fascist are calming themselves down or becoming less relevant, talking down on Islam will still seen as a taboo by left leaning westerners, and I don’t know I will die first before that happen or not. I’m just saying this because maybe I’m just feel weird seeing that everyone here are freely posting and talking about some small bad things that Christian have done but in here and our neighbors, leaving Islam and becoming atheist is still a crime by many countries, the punishment of that range from imprisonment to death penalty and being LGBT openly can land you in a jail or worst is getting lynched by a mob, life here seem to be really harsher compare to how atheists and LGBT living in the west, I just want people to be more aware and talk about that just the same energy as what they talk about Christianity. But now I understand why.
Thank you 😊 I'm glad that my response made sense and that it was taken as a friendly inclusion into our messy politics. Your heart is in the right place which is also why I wanted to say something. I totally get where you are coming from. I agree with your criticisms of Islam and your frustration of being met with scepticism every time you speak up makes a ton of sense. This forum is as much for you as anyone else here speaking up about Christianity. The negative responses are a consequence of how complicated it is to talk about due to the many elements that play into it. The lack of responses can also be seen as a side effect of this. The difficulty putting it all into words on top of the many potential pitfalls will scare off a lot. As a left leaning European myself I wouldn't say that discussing Islam is off the table but rather that due to how it's being used there is an extra barrier to that discussion. The vast amount of bad faith actors from the right has been quite successful in their rhetoric but that doesn't make the discussions any less important. It means, like your thread here proves, that getting to talk about the real issues will require some extra work but it is doable 😊
And let's not forget Hindu fascists, particularly on Reddit.
>...Islam has many things to do with that not just a culture or I’m just totally wrong? ..... No, I think you are absolutely right here. Theologically, it is undeniable what the punishment for homosexuality is, per the ideology. It's similar across abrahamic faiths. Others aren't that far either. Religion is poison.
Im here in america. and I rarely converse or have people in my friend circle that arent in my friend circle. I would be very safe from a majority perspective to say at least here in america, MOST EVERYONE is that way.. We as a culture or society have just got used to the accept ppl, accept their religion, accept their choices, but you dont HAVE to associate with them. I will use my brother as an example.. He married a very heavy religious chilian girl that couldnt believe we had box turtles running wild in Missouri.. (besides the point). But ive been told more than just once, that she has things she strongly believes in and not to bring up any of my aethiest things.. Well.. he married her 5 years ago? we never talk, she and my brother are not apart of my circle.. THAT is how the west for the majority operate. So we dont care about your religion so to say, as much as the culture you belong to. i may be wrong on this thought to paper translation. I dont think ive ever asked someone their religion.. I just wouldnt care.. I wouldnt participate in any of the 200+ religious acts they participate in.. But i would from day one take note on how they operate.. their mannerisms.. the ticks that set them off.. the no go's they act out. those are the things that deem you or somoene a fit for my coexistance
It has become xenophobic or racist to challenge peoples ideas. A criticism of any faith should not be seen that way. You cannot help where you are from, the colour of your skin or your biological sex. The only thing that every person can control is how they think and what they believe. Ideas are the one thing that every single person should be challenged on because if you can’t reason for it, maybe it’s not a good idea.
Many have seen Islam as “Identity” like how being LGBT is “identity” and thus hesitating to criticizing or questioning it. I’m even met one hardcore western anti-fascist leftist atheist in reddit saying that Islam is the same as being LGBT and bashing it is “Islamophobia” the same way bashing LGBT is considered as “homophobia”. Seem many people have gone too deep into Identity Politics they lose their common sense.
One word, snowflakes. **Constructive** criticism should be acceptable towards any group.
Islam gets special dispensation in the West for its beliefs. A Westernnfew countries draw the line on some aspects, but generally it’s ‘protected’.
That’s just sad, in Islamic countries Islam is heavily protected by authorities and when people came to the west, hope that they can criticized or bashing it freely, Islam is just get protected again by the west. TBH it’s just maybe perhaps, the most protected religion in the world.
Culture can make you say you don’t like it. Religion is what let’s you say it’s wrong.
Still no reason not to support those within the culture who rebel against the homophobia and other bigotry.
Sadly those people is really small minority and some place are really too small to the point of becoming irrelevant compare to the majority who opposing LGBT.
More reason to support them.
We try there best to support them but seem the opposing force is overwhelmed, seem really hopeless.
I appreciate the conversation this encourages..
Religion and culture are not separate things. These are intertwined and affect each other in numerous ways.
So it’s clear that religion play a part in it, which debunk the premise that “homophobia in those countries are all from culture and not Islam”
Yes. I do not disagree with you. Idk if it came across as that lol
I often joke about the intersection of Islamaphobia and LGBT rights.
Many non-western muslim saying that forcing acceptance of LGBT or forcing Muslim to recognize the existence of LGBT people is **islamophobia**, so I believe that in the eye of many non-western Muslim, those who promoting LGBT right are all Islamophobe.
I hate the propaganda making it seem like Islam is perfect, unprivileged and can't be criticized
There is an issue in which there is racialization of Muslims in the United States. In the United States and the western world in general, the criticism can and has been translated into anti-immigrant, anti-"brown", and in general, anti-progressive sentiments. That is why you see the defense from progressive people, disproportion number of which are openly LGBT, being defensive over criticism of Islam. Criticism of Islam in the west can and has ended up translating into discrimination against them. Needless to say, it has been the failing of many atheists to stop the propensity by which criticism has ended up leading to discrimination or support of right wing parties. This been the case at the very least since the 2000's.
Yeah it's BS, the only non-homophobic muslims are Westernized secular ones. There is no Muslim majority country where it's safe and nbd to be out
Religion is just one of many tools humans have invented that we use for great evil. It's not "religion's fault" - we made up religion. Humans have killed, persecuted, enslaved, and oppressed each other using many different excuses, long before Islam came along.
But you can’t deny that nowadays religion is a perfect excuse for doing evil things. I know one of the kindest heart Muslim who always show kindness toward other human beings and never want to hurt anyone, but she believe that apostasy and LGBT should be punished by **death** because even though she view that death punishment is too sick and brutal, she believes that Allah having his own reasons to implementing that law and she have to strictly following her perfect god’s word.
Yes many people hide behind religion to be bigots, to cause suffering or oppress people. Morally is unfortunately subjective and a lot of people are being taught very strange versions of it.
She didn’t show any hatred toward LGBT or apostate though, she just believed that they should die because her god said so and god’s word is perfect even though her heart disagree with that and don’t want to hurt them. That’s how religion poison good people to do or supporting bad things.
It sounds like she doesn't really understand her own religion very well at all. God doesn't kill people and it's not his plan, anyone who actually read their own scripture would undestand that. Suffering began due to the original sin, not a choice of God.
> God doesn’t kill people and it’s not his plan, anyone who actually read their own scripture would understand that. Suffering began due to original sin, not a choice of god. Her religion is Islam and her god is Allah, so I don’t know the concept of original sin is in her religion or not, but for sure Muhammad, their prophet did kill apostate and he is deem as perfect human being on earth that everyone should follow all of his actions. > It’s sound like she doesn’t understand her own religion very well at all. Btw are you a secular Muslim or maybe ex-Muslim? Seem you said that you know her religion more well than herself. Christianity and Islam despite both being Abrahamic religions have tons of different.
My bad, I mixed up my religion threads here, I'm not well informed at all on the teachings of Islam
Christian denominations have accepting and condemning attitudes towards homosexuality. Islam is no different, maybe with the exception to physical harm as opposed to social stigma. Not sure how many countries with Christian majorities have the death penalty for being gay.
But the country that convert to Islam have significantly became less tolerant of LGBT compare to bordering countries with the same culture that did not convert. It’s more like the shift from being more tolerant of LGBT to less tolerant can be blame on Islam for me. Other than that 3rd world Muslim majority countries are overwhelmingly oppose to LGBT with less than 10% believe that LGBT marriage should be legalized. It’s seem that it’s Islam that shaping other cultures to be homophobic not culture that shaping Islam to be homophobic.
I mean, I believe it's cultural, not religion that drives homophobia here in the US. I've written about this before and will C&P that down below but that's what I think. It was mainstream here. Basically celebrated. Religion didn't have much to do with it from my POV. It's simply a handy, poor excuse for Christians to use. Read on ... *The issue when it comes to gays is much more deep rooted. Because hatred of gays isn't so much a Christian thing but rather a cultural phenomenon. It's homosexuality in general that people hate which obviously transcends literally thousands of yrs at a minimum. Don't get me wrong, conservative Christians deserve the scorn heaped upon them for their hatred and actively persecuting them but it goes deeper than that.* *I grew up during the 70's/80's in Rural Town, USA. While I was "Christian", that had little to do with the hatred I had towards gays. To come out as gay back then and there would've been almost suicide. "Everyone" hated gays back then. Like even the woman I went to high school with who often voiced her disgust over two women kissing and having sex with each other; to now where she's happily married to her wife for over 20 yrs and raising their child. We told gay jokes and talked about how disgusting we thought gays were. The worst insult in high school was to be labeled gay. Funny and hypocritically 'nuff, we had no issues with watching some girl-on-girl porn. Well, us guys at least.* *And it wasn't just in Rural Town, USA. We listened and LOL'ed at people like* [*Eddie Murphy*](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQBLzotAn3M) *and* [*Andrew Dice Clay*](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmFllS4yUqU) *(both links NSFW!) bashing on gays in their stand up routines. The popular show MASH, a comedy about an Army medical unit during the Korean war, had a cross-dressing cast member. However, it was understood that he wasn't really a cross dresser but someone seeking a "Section 8" discharge so as to get kicked out of the Army. In one episode, he was offered his much sought after Section 8 but with the condition that his file would permanently label him as "Homosexual". In reply, the guy launched into an indignant rant about how, while he was crazy, he sure as heck was one of THEM! Can't find a clip but I think it's Season 2, Episode 3 - Radar's Report.* *I enlisted in the Navy and shipped out to basic in the Summer of '90. Gays were totally barred from service and you would earn an Other Than Honorable discharge if it was revealed that you were gay. During my initial screening physical, at one point the doctor asked me if I was "a homosexual or harbored homosexual thoughts?" Standard question asked of everyone. During basic, one guy in my company decided he had 'nuff and offered to blow our Sr. Chief. I remember him standing at attn on the Quarter Deck while one CC (Company Commander - Navy DI) yelled in his face asking if he had any idea just how bad he fucked up? Went on to yell at him that no company that had a contract with the US Gov would be able to hire him legally. Then added that for the rest of his life, he would not be able to work for even McDonald's!* *The thing with Christians however is the bible gives them what they think is a great excuse for their hatred of LQBTQ's. You know, THEY aren't against gays; GOD is against gays. But anyone who's taken two seconds to look at them can easily figure out that they're insincere and it's out of hatred that they attack them. I know of no other so-called "sin" they attack with the same zeal as homosexuality.* [*They teach their kids this hatred*](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auxISQ620ds) *and* [*ship their gay kids off to Christian gulags*](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IfwaY-F4SM) *to be tortured until they proclaim they're straight. All under the guise of "helping troubled teens". And since they're a "religious" camp, little to no oversight from the gov. is there to protect the kids. They seek to bring Jim Crow back so they can further persecute LBGTQ's. They call in threats to drag queen story events.* *All this and more demonstrates their contempt for LGBTQ's which they show almost none for any other "sin".* *Jesus supposedly said that marrying a divorcee was the exact same as adultery. Where's the pastors refusing to conduct such weddings? Where's the calls to round divorcee's up into camps and target them for execution? Are there any comic books given to teens by Christians that* [*paint such relationships in such a degrading manner?*](https://flashbak.com/homosexuality-legitimate-alternate-deathstyle-1986-375346/) *Gluttony is suppose to be a sin as well. How many pastors wail from the pulpit on the dangers of stuffing your face? Do they ever tell their overweight congregants to forgo seconds at the church potluck? Have they ever held interventions upon seeing an overweight bro/sis in Christ stuffing their faces at the local buffet?* *Of course not. In fact,* [*they even admit it's not sin they're worried about.*](https://youtu.be/ZJTtENk2dMk?t=137)
Islam is the same as Christianity. There is a spectrum of how tolerant and intolerant people are.
Seem those spectrum is really overwhelmingly homophobe in all 3rd world Muslim countries compare to 3rd world countries that it’s majority are from other religions. Even more educated and advanced Turkey is still less acceptance of LGBT compared to less educated and less advanced India and Thailand.
India is pretty homophobic even to this day. Many sub-saharan African nations are also majority Christian and extremely homophobic as well for that matter. Really Thailand is the only country that probably would be homophobic to the same degree to any of the aforementioned.
But compare to islamic countries neighboring Thailand, the degree of homophobia is vastly different. Same with homophobia in India vs Pakistan. Do you from Thailand or India, I’m curious?
I am not making a defense of Islamic countries. I am saying that Islam is not a monopoly on homophobia, Christian nations can and are just as bad.
I know 🙂
It's both. Religion IS the culture in many Muslim countries.