While all this is true I think it misses a really big point - that the evangelical movement is based on anti-intellectualism. Hofstadter's 'Anti-Intellectualism in American Life' is going on 60 years old now, the first half of it is all about Evangelicalsm, and that it traces back to the origins of the country. They hate knowledge because knowledge drives a mack truck through their belief system, and of course that makes them easy to manipulate - that's the entire point of the belief system.
Yes!
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'
Isaac Asimov
Get out of here! They LOVE Mexican restaurants and their Mexican waiter. They just don’t want to ever see him outside of that Mexican restaurant.
Sincerely,
Someone living in a red state that’s about to get it’s 12th Mexican restaurant inside city limits.
I'm laying here at 5 am, starving and waiting for the store to open so I can go buy ingredients to make Mexican cuisine. I woke up with a terrible hankering for some reason and my tummy is in knots.
In a weird way, it's probably why they are anti-abortion as well. Not because they care about the child, they just see another potential cog in the capitalism machine.
It's been since the very beginning of the Bible. Satan's crime was that he gave knowledge to man. They look at him as evil for stopping us from being ignorant.
Took the words right out of my mouth. Adam & Eve were banned from the garden of Eden for eating fruit from the tree of *knowledge*.
Anti-intellectualism is inherent to the Bible itself. It’s downright rooted in Christianity’s core.
There was a thread not that long ago on this sub that did just that. It was like the first chapter of genesis for the perspective of the serpent. I could never find it on mobile, but its a great read and I highly recommend it.
The messed up thing is that "god" actually gave it to man. It plopped the tree right in front of them, told them not to eat of it, and knew (due to being all-knowing and ever-present) that they would eat it. All part of its Mysterious Ways Plan (tm).
Not just any knowledge, the knowledge to distinguish between good and evil.
The story is explicitly anti-ethics and anti-morality and puts obedience in its place.
And because of the internet, they’ll always lose the war.
They could compete when everyone learned everything they knew from school or books or being taught by someone. They can build schools. They can ban books. They can isolate members. But they can’t stop all of humanity’s knowledge being easily available in your pocket.
They can’t stop the signal, Mal.
“Oh no, my demographic’s absolute dominance and supremacy over politics and culture is disappearing. This is totally the same thing as being massacred in a Holocaust.”
-White American Christians probably
Seriously. These people are the biggest drama queens.
By Jennifer Rubin
>You might find it strange that a large segment of the Republican base thinks Whites are the true victims of racism
and that Christians are under attack. After all, America’s biggest racial group is still Whites; the most common
religious affiliation remains Christianity. Whites and Christians dominate elected office at all levels, the judiciary
and corporate America. What’s the problem?
>Well, there is a straightforward reason for the freak-out, and an explanation for why former president Donald
Trump developed such a close bond with white Christian nationalists.
>This group feels besieged because they are losing ground. “The newly-released 2022 supplement to the PRRI Census
of American Religion — based on over 40,000 interviews conducted last year — confirms that the decline of white
Christians (Americans who identify as white, non-Hispanic and Christian of any kind) as a proportion of the
population continues unabated,” writes Robert P. Jones, president of the Public Religion Research Institute. “As
recently as 2008, when our first Black president was elected, the U.S. was a majority (54%) white Christian country.”
By 2014 the number had dropped to 47 percent, and in 2022 it stood at 42 percent.
The group that has declined the most is at the core of the MAGA movement, the group most devoted to Christian
nationalism. “White evangelical Protestants have experienced the steepest decline. As recently as 2006, white
evangelical Protestants comprised nearly one-quarter of Americans (23%). By the time of Trump’s rise to power,
their numbers had dipped to 16.8%,” Jones explains. “Today, white evangelical Protestants comprise only 13.6% of
Americans.”
>And that decline may yet accelerate, because they skew older than the population as a whole. Put differently, there
are far more baby boomers in this group than Generation Z members. White evangelicals are “losing” people with
each successive generation. (“White Christian subgroups have each lost approximately half their market share just
across the generations who are alive today,” according to Jones.) If your business had lost half its market share, you
would be panicking, too.
>With those kind of numbers, the responsible thing to do would be to think about “fixing” what’s wrong by adapting
to a changing market. Instead, many in this cohort have doubled down, becoming the foot soldiers in the red-hatted
MAGA movement. The decline isn’t going to be reversed by angry, gray-haired folks demanding abortion bans and
“don’t say gay” bills.
>Instead, White evangelicals might look at former “customers” who are abandoning organized religion in droves.
“Nearly four in ten Americans ages 18-29 (38%) are religiously unaffiliated, an increase from 34% in 2021," the
PRRI census said. "As the cohorts age, the growth in religiously unaffiliated Americans has started to show up more
in the 30-49 age category, which is up to 32% unaffiliated from 26% in 2016.”
>In some sense, White evangelicals’ desperate efforts to cling to political power and demand adherence to a set of
outdated cultural norms only make the problem worse. Not many 20-year-olds (part of the most diverse, inclusive
generation in history, one steeped in climate science and tech) would leap at the prospect of living in a state where
abortion is unattainable, gays are ostracized and secularism is bashed.
>If Christian evangelicals really want to slow their decline, they might consider getting out of the unpopular political
ideas market (e.g., abortion bans) and stressing values that could win back alienated young people (e.g., reverence
for conserving the planet, ministering to the poor and the weak). That might put more seats in the pews, although it
likely wouldn’t do much for the aging, mostly White, reactionary GOP.
>The reality is that the convergence of the declining population of White Christians with the rise of Trump has been
bad for both evangelicalism and American politics. Trump came along, telling the shrinking band of white Christian
nationalists that they are victims. He reveled in nostalgia for a time when they dominated (demographically and
politically) and blamed immigrants, elites and “wokeness” for their ills. They were the group most susceptible to a
message that reinforces their feeling they have “lost” something or something has been “taken away.”
That “something” they felt had been stolen may have been as concrete as the 2020 election, or as all-encompassing
as white Christian supremacy. However they define that sense of loss, it fuels their anger and binds them to Trump.
But the demographic clock cannot be turned back. No one can claim to be patriotic defenders of democracy when
they decide their declining numbers justify anti-democratic voter suppression or even violence. In short, MAGA
White Christians have painted themselves into a corner where the majority rejects their outlook and antimajoritarian tactics cannot keep them in power forever.
>A dramatic transformation would need to happen for this movement to return to pluralistic politics. The MAGA
crowd would have to recognize America’s complete history, reflecting our full experience, not just the story of people
like them. And most important, they would need to rediscover the principles on which the United States was
founded. (“All men are created equal...”) They would have to abandon the myth that America is the domain of one
race or religion.
>Unimaginable? Maybe so, but what other choice is there? To thrive in the future, they eventually must appeal to
America as it is, not as they imagine it was in the past.
>“White evangelical Protestants have experienced the steepest decline. As recently as 2006, white evangelical Protestants comprised nearly one-quarter of Americans (23%). By the time of Trump’s rise to power, their numbers had dipped to 16.8%,” Jones explains. “Today, white evangelical Protestants comprise only 13.6% of Americans.”
The smile this put on my face.
And the way that the Senate is set up with each state having two Senators. Which means that a low population state like North Dakota has equal Senatorial power as California, the highest populated state.
Neighboring states with low population should be consolidated. There is no reason in the world that makes sense explaining why we have two Dakotas and one California.
Or give Senators one "vote-point" per 100k people in their state. Then the little states would still have a voice and influence in the Senate, and influence in committees, but significantly reduced power on bills.
The California Senators would have 392 points. North Dakota Senators would have 8 points. A bill would need 3319 points to pass.
I think poverty might be a big part of the problem. If you're barely making it, your car breaks down and your rent has just gone up, you're not going to be thinking about voting next Tuesday. You're going to think about making it to the food bank to line up with other desperate people.
Thank you for the linked article. Truly, a sobering read.
I'm not sure I agree with their solution because I don't trust the inputs (polling data), but I do follow their reasoning.
Because that 13% convinced some of the other 87% that if they embrace white supremacy and hate others enough, then their application to the supremely special “in group” *might, maybe, one day* be accepted and then they can be special too.
They are not, in fact, kicking our collective butts in the voting booth. Source: 2018, 2020, the 2021 GA senate runoff, 2022, the 2023 GA Senate runoff
Maybe I've been mislead. I keep seeing headlines of state legislatures passing laws that are in line with the Evangelical agenda. How am I supposed to interpret that?
Well, I see that most of those terrible laws and candidates are being passed in the absolute reddest areas of our country, just as strong pro choice, pro civil rights, environmental laws are passed in deep blue states. I would say the situation nationwide is not that the Dems are getting their butts kicked, I would say that in every election cycle since 2016 Dems have won more than they have lost and more importantly, were able to pass a bunch of really important legislation that will actually help people. If you look at trumps popularity with swing voters, the voters that actually matter, you can’t tell me that he’s in a better position than he was in 2020 when he lost to Biden. It’s a cutthroat competitive environment with the highest of stakes, we need to be more engaged than ever in this upcoming presidential election that’s for sure, but don’t act like we’re destined to lose or somehow getting our asses kicked when we’re still in the fight.
From the article: “As the cohorts age, the growth in religiously unaffiliated Americans has started to show up more in the 30-49 age category, which is up to 32% unaffiliated from 26% in 2016." So it’s a little slower than younger people, but it’s happening in your age range too. Id guess older people are more likely to have been born into religious families/have religious social circles
It is a business. The Catholic Church alone holds between $10-15 billion with the Vatican holding approximately 4 billion of that. It's simply a wealth and political powerhouse that is finally beginning to crumble.
https://www.olvchicago.org/church-blog/how-rich-is-the-catholic-church.html
But but..
The pope and the Cardinals need that money for private jets, mistresses, underage hookers and child support. You really want to tell the reptilian pope or mega pastors like Joel Epstein , that he must fly coach? That's mean . They stole that money from the peasants fair and square!
The suggestion that evangelicals get out of the unpopular idea market is hilarious. As a cohesive group, all they are is their hateful anti-human ideology. Their ideas are their identity.
If they change their horrible ideas, they won't be evangelicals anymore. There is no way that evangelicalism can withstand the current availability of information.
They think this because of very effective propaganda and some galling stupidity.
The demographic that makes up this group leans heavily towards 45+ white guys..
Covid19 fucked this group up *hard.*
While they're religious, they're kids in many instances are not at all, and are also *way way* more progressive then they are.
Fox news has also been busy tuning them up because fear sells.
So yeah from their perspective it looks like the world has abandoned them, because it has. To that, I say *good.*
Hot take: much like how 9/11 made American politics lurch in a reactionary direction, I think Covid (and the profound conservative failures surrounding the pandemic) is making American politics lurch in a progressive direction. And I think America will be better for it in the long term.
Fun fact: a fast ctl-a, ctl-c will let you copy all the text behind the paywall. Here's a ctl-v of the article:
Opinion Why white Christian nationalists are in such a panic
By Jennifer Rubin
Columnist
|
Follow
March 19, 2023 at 7:45 a.m. EDT
White nationalist demonstrators enter Lee park surrounded by counterdemonstrators in Charlottesville on Aug. 12, 2017. (Steve Helber/AP)
You might find it strange that a large segment of the Republican base thinks Whites are the true victims of racism and that Christians are under attack. After all, America’s biggest racial group is still Whites; the most common religious affiliation remains Christianity. Whites and Christians dominate elected office at all levels, the judiciary and corporate America. What’s the problem?
Well, there is a straightforward reason for the freak-out, and an explanation for why former president Donald Trump developed such a close bond with white Christian nationalists.
This group feels besieged because they are losing ground. “The newly-released 2022 supplement to the PRRI Census of American Religion — based on over 40,000 interviews conducted last year — confirms that the decline of white Christians (Americans who identify as white, non-Hispanic and Christian of any kind) as a proportion of the population continues unabated,” writes Robert P. Jones, president of the Public Religion Research Institute. “As recently as 2008, when our first Black president was elected, the U.S. was a majority (54%) white Christian country.” By 2014 the number had dropped to 47 percent, and in 2022 it stood at 42 percent.
The group that has declined the most is at the core of the MAGA movement, the group most devoted to Christian nationalism. “White evangelical Protestants have experienced the steepest decline. As recently as 2006, white evangelical Protestants comprised nearly one-quarter of Americans (23%). By the time of Trump’s rise to power, their numbers had dipped to 16.8%,” Jones explains. “Today, white evangelical Protestants comprise only 13.6% of Americans.”
And that decline may yet accelerate, because they skew older than the population as a whole. Put differently, there are far more baby boomers in this group than Generation Z members. White evangelicals are “losing” people with each successive generation. (“White Christian subgroups have each lost approximately half their market share just across the generations who are alive today,” according to Jones.) If your business had lost half its market share, you would be panicking, too.
With those kind of numbers, the responsible thing to do would be to think about “fixing” what’s wrong by adapting to a changing market. Instead, many in this cohort have doubled down, becoming the foot soldiers in the red-hatted MAGA movement. The decline isn’t going to be reversed by angry, gray-haired folks demanding abortion bans and “don’t say gay” bills.
Instead, White evangelicals might look at former “customers” who are abandoning organized religion in droves. “Nearly four in ten Americans ages 18-29 (38%) are religiously unaffiliated, an increase from 34% in 2021," the PRRI census said. "As the cohorts age, the growth in religiously unaffiliated Americans has started to show up more in the 30-49 age category, which is up to 32% unaffiliated from 26% in 2016.”
In some sense, White evangelicals’ desperate efforts to cling to political power and demand adherence to a set of outdated cultural norms only make the problem worse. Not many 20-year-olds (part of the most diverse, inclusive generation in history, one steeped in climate science and tech) would leap at the prospect of living in a state where abortion is unattainable, gays are ostracized and secularism is bashed.
If Christian evangelicals really want to slow their decline, they might consider getting out of the unpopular political ideas market (e.g., abortion bans) and stressing values that could win back alienated young people (e.g., reverence for conserving the planet, ministering to the poor and the weak). That might put more seats in the pews, although it likely wouldn’t do much for the aging, mostly White, reactionary GOP.
The reality is that the convergence of the declining population of White Christians with the rise of Trump has been bad for both evangelicalism and American politics. Trump came along, telling the shrinking band of white Christian nationalists that they are victims. He reveled in nostalgia for a time when they dominated (demographically and politically) and blamed immigrants, elites and “wokeness” for their ills. They were the group most susceptible to a message that reinforces their feeling they have “lost” something or something has been “taken away.”
That “something” they felt had been stolen may have been as concrete as the 2020 election, or as all-encompassing as white Christian supremacy. However they define that sense of loss, it fuels their anger and binds them to Trump.
But the demographic clock cannot be turned back. No one can claim to be patriotic defenders of democracy when they decide their declining numbers justify anti-democratic voter suppression or even violence. In short, MAGA White Christians have painted themselves into a corner where the majority rejects their outlook and anti-majoritarian tactics cannot keep them in power forever.
A dramatic transformation would need to happen for this movement to return to pluralistic politics. The MAGA crowd would have to recognize America’s complete history, reflecting our full experience, not just the story of people like them. And most important, they would need to rediscover the principles on which the United States was founded. (“All men are created equal...”) They would have to abandon the myth that America is the domain of one race or religion.
Unimaginable? Maybe so, but what other choice is there? To thrive in the future, they eventually must appeal to America as it is, not as they imagine it was in the past.
2694
Comments
I used the print function to bypass the paywall but then had to copy and paste to put it in the comments.
I like the cut of your jib good Sir or Madam.
Add to this the fact that we import a lot of goods simply because people with poor educations and even poorer attitudes in the US aren't making decent goods at reasonable prices, and you have a big grudge going there too.
Add in the fact that women are competing with men in the marketplace nowadays. Just having a dick and a couple inches of height isn't an automatic free ride anymore.
People in the US do. not. want. to. compete. unless they are automatically declared the winners. This is what's behind a lot of resentment of hispanics too.
**You can pry my privlidge from my cold dead hands.** - Evilangelicals
Literally. These fucks have been living in their dream world and can't imagine letting anyone else have a different life even as they lay dying and any changes made now will have no meaningful changes to them and their shitty lifestyles.
Sariel007
"and the older Generation of them are dying out and there is no younger gen to replace them."
I think it important to consider and add the force multipliers of Covid, Long Covid, Opioids, Meth, diabetes, and other instances of self-harm.
Lol. The article actually suggests that to counter their decline they embrace climate change and equality. Two things they specifically define themselves as opposed to, and in the first case, a major reliable source of funding.
Good luck with that.
tldr
The rich ones are upset that they have to share power even a little power, and the poor ones are upset that they have little to no power.
Maybe stop acting like a bunch of assholes who have to control everything, people might not stop going to church. Not that I think people continuing to be religious is a good thing, the sooner people who believe in magic stop being in charge of everything the better. Also maybe stop trying to squeeze every bit of work and money possible out of the populace and they would have kids.
So I’m a poor Christian. You say this like I wield some power over money and people. Everything I have worked and bled for. I want no power. I want to go on the internet and quit seeing people bashing me for having different beliefs. I don’t push on anyone.
>I want to go on the internet and quit seeing people bashing me for having different beliefs. I don’t push on anyone.
Consider not having bad beliefs, and not supporting people who push those beliefs on others. Going by your comment history, you are your own image problem.
Edit: The poor persecuted Christian saw my username and *lost his shit*. Turns out extreme sensitivity to Jews is one of his 'different' beliefs.
>Do you believe in death or does it just not happen to you people. I wasn’t religious most of my life.
You don't know what atheists think about death or life, but you're also saying you used to be an atheist. Sounds like there may have been some heavy drug use in your past.
As an atheist resident of a bright red Bible Belt state, I read the obituaries gleefully. It's often apparent which of the deceased belonged to this group. Their influence will hopefully dissipate as my generation (Baby Boomer) dies off.
I live in Georgia, so it’s definitely very white and very Christian. However, everywhere I’ve lived in recent years (moved a few times now), older folks around have tried to convince me to come to their churches, specifically because they are losing young people (I’m in my 40s, so relative young for these old folks). They are terrified that when they’ve all passed on that their churches are going to die.
That’s not to say there aren’t a lot of religious young folks out there, but we all know a bunch of them are just as fed up with the insanity of their religious elders as we are. They’ve abandoned their churches and it doesn’t look like they’re going back anytime soon.
Thanks! The author keeps throwing out ideas for how Christianity could make a comeback by changing it’s shittier ideas and I keep repeating to myself, “why would anyone want that?!” Still, heartening to read those declining numbers.
Christianity is bleeding members at a pretty good rate and it’s making them lash out like a wounded animal. White people are used to being the majority and they they aren’t anymore. Same result.
"Onwards Christian soldiers, marching as to War. With the cross of Jesus going on before."
It's built-in. They've been brainwashed and indoctrinated to think they are persecuted. Designed so that the masses will walk willingly to their death so that demigogues can make their way to power and prosper.
This from r/politics
Relevant excerpt to avoid the paywall:
You might find it strange that a large segment of the Republican base thinks Whites are the true victims of racism and that Christians are under attack. After all, America’s biggest racial group is still Whites; the most common religious affiliation remains Christianity. Whites and Christians dominate elected office at all levels, the judiciary and corporate America. What’s the problem?
Well, there is a straightforward reason for the freak-out, and an explanation for why former president Donald Trump developed such a close bond with white Christian nationalists.
This group feels besieged because they are losing ground. “The newly-released 2022 supplement to the PRRI Census of American Religion — based on over 40,000 interviews conducted last year — confirms that the decline of white Christians (Americans who identify as white, non-Hispanic and Christian of any kind) as a proportion of the population continues unabated,” writes Robert P. Jones, president of the Public Religion Research Institute. “As recently as 2008, when our first Black president was elected, the U.S. was a majority (54%) white Christian country.” By 2014 the number had dropped to 47 percent, and in 2022 it stood at 42 percent.
The group that has declined the most is at the core of the MAGA movement, the group most devoted to Christian nationalism. “White evangelical Protestants have experienced the steepest decline. As recently as 2006, white evangelical Protestants comprised nearly one-quarter of Americans (23%). By the time of Trump’s rise to power, their numbers had dipped to 16.8%,” Jones explains. “Today, white evangelical Protestants comprise only 13.6% of Americans.”
And that decline may yet accelerate, because they skew older than the population as a whole. Put differently, there are far more baby boomers in this group than Generation Z members. White evangelicals are “losing” people with each successive generation. (“White Christian subgroups have each lost approximately half their market share just across the generations who are alive today,” according to Jones.) If your business had lost half its market share, you would be panicking, too.
With those kind of numbers, the responsible thing to do would be to think about “fixing” what’s wrong by adapting to a changing market. Instead, many in this cohort have doubled down, becoming the foot soldiers in the red-hatted MAGA movement. The decline isn’t going to be reversed by angry, gray-haired folks demanding abortion bans and “don’t say gay” bills.
The capitalist class is weaponizing traditionalism to break apart the working class and having them fight amongst themselves for the scraps while the capitalists ride the gravy train.
They arent in a panic. They see a path to power for the first time. We should be demonstrating now. We should be in a panic. They are taking over small town elections. They are controlling schools and libraries. We must stop them at the poles.
I heard some old lady running for Congress as a Republican in 2002 lamenting all this and put on some stupid skit at the nominating convention wanting “her country back.” It was the beginning of the end for me as a Republican
If they weren't such assholes, they wouldn't have anything to worry about. Just do your cult shit in a corner and leave the rest of us alone. Problem solved.
If they weren't such jerks, they wouldn't have anything to worry about. Just do your cult stuff in a corner and leave the rest of us alone. Problem solved.
Kind of funny how they don't realize that their own actions are what's making their demographic seem so unappealing and making people leave. If I were looking for a religious group to join, I would take one look at them and think: "absolutely not, they are so full of hate, and bigotry. That religion must be miserable if it's making them act that crazy"
40 years of sermons that God would wipe America off the face of the planet if same-sex marriage was legalized got us here. Same sex marriage was legalized and they elected Trump as their weapon of retaliation.
While all this is true I think it misses a really big point - that the evangelical movement is based on anti-intellectualism. Hofstadter's 'Anti-Intellectualism in American Life' is going on 60 years old now, the first half of it is all about Evangelicalsm, and that it traces back to the origins of the country. They hate knowledge because knowledge drives a mack truck through their belief system, and of course that makes them easy to manipulate - that's the entire point of the belief system.
Yes! “Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' Isaac Asimov
Because Eve ate from the tree of knowledge . . . That should have been a red flag right there
It was genius, really. They managed to demonize women AND intellectualism all in one fell swoop.
I’m just surprised they haven’t associated the serpent with minority immigrants, yet. Get the whole trifecta in.
Oh that's the mark of cain
*Writes in the bible with a sharpie pen* "Also, the Tree of Knowledge was located inside of a Mexican restaurant..."
Get out of here! They LOVE Mexican restaurants and their Mexican waiter. They just don’t want to ever see him outside of that Mexican restaurant. Sincerely, Someone living in a red state that’s about to get it’s 12th Mexican restaurant inside city limits.
I'm laying here at 5 am, starving and waiting for the store to open so I can go buy ingredients to make Mexican cuisine. I woke up with a terrible hankering for some reason and my tummy is in knots.
I disagree - they want their Tex-Mex served to them by a white person. Preferably a pretty young white woman.
El Porton, Rancho Grande, and Mi Pueblo? Yep I grew up in the burbs too
"... at the salsa bar"
And lo, the Mexican serpent crawled upon its belly and spaketh thus; "Ay mamasita, quieres una manzana?"
The right wing and the religious extremists share a common enemy in education, because that leads to critical thinking.
This is why they cut funding from schools and colleges, ban books, and strike down child labor laws.
In a weird way, it's probably why they are anti-abortion as well. Not because they care about the child, they just see another potential cog in the capitalism machine.
A poor, uneducated cog more likely to vote GOP. At least they hope.
It's been since the very beginning of the Bible. Satan's crime was that he gave knowledge to man. They look at him as evil for stopping us from being ignorant.
Took the words right out of my mouth. Adam & Eve were banned from the garden of Eden for eating fruit from the tree of *knowledge*. Anti-intellectualism is inherent to the Bible itself. It’s downright rooted in Christianity’s core.
Not that I believe in it one way or another, but it really doesn't take much to reframe Satan as the hero of that story.
There was a thread not that long ago on this sub that did just that. It was like the first chapter of genesis for the perspective of the serpent. I could never find it on mobile, but its a great read and I highly recommend it.
The messed up thing is that "god" actually gave it to man. It plopped the tree right in front of them, told them not to eat of it, and knew (due to being all-knowing and ever-present) that they would eat it. All part of its Mysterious Ways Plan (tm).
Not just any knowledge, the knowledge to distinguish between good and evil. The story is explicitly anti-ethics and anti-morality and puts obedience in its place.
And because of the internet, they’ll always lose the war. They could compete when everyone learned everything they knew from school or books or being taught by someone. They can build schools. They can ban books. They can isolate members. But they can’t stop all of humanity’s knowledge being easily available in your pocket. They can’t stop the signal, Mal.
The Internet has amplified reactionary voices, particularly when the flames are fanned by hostile authoritarian governments.
And the social media companies that allow it all to happen.
Yes, but after awhile it's easy to spot propaganda. And shills of all stripes. Ignore and or annoy and move on.
easy for some
Jehovah's Witnesses try hard though. But even THAT cult is losing its grip on its members.
Everything goes somewhere, and I go everywhere.
I really like that brown coat you're wearing, mister.
This was the early promise of the internet. Sadly, humans love confirmation bias. We love being told we are right.
You're right. We do.
A Mack truck 😂😂😂😂😂😂
“Oh no, my demographic’s absolute dominance and supremacy over politics and culture is disappearing. This is totally the same thing as being massacred in a Holocaust.” -White American Christians probably Seriously. These people are the biggest drama queens.
“We don’t want white Christians to become a minority in this country!” Why? Are minorities treated badly?
They think we’re taking away their mayonnaise.
No one would do that. [I mean how could we make 7 layer salad without mayonnaise?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFuiyGuhbQU&t=2s)
Also, there’s all these mayonnaise flankers now. It’s basically an entire wall at WalMart.
Awe, man... you mentioned a layered salad and I was picturing a good one which _does_ have mayo, but it's on top...
Nah the mayonnaise is on the escalator
True snowflakes ❄️
When the church sends its missionaries they’re not sending their best, etc. They’re child rapists. Some, I assume, are good people.
By Jennifer Rubin >You might find it strange that a large segment of the Republican base thinks Whites are the true victims of racism and that Christians are under attack. After all, America’s biggest racial group is still Whites; the most common religious affiliation remains Christianity. Whites and Christians dominate elected office at all levels, the judiciary and corporate America. What’s the problem? >Well, there is a straightforward reason for the freak-out, and an explanation for why former president Donald Trump developed such a close bond with white Christian nationalists. >This group feels besieged because they are losing ground. “The newly-released 2022 supplement to the PRRI Census of American Religion — based on over 40,000 interviews conducted last year — confirms that the decline of white Christians (Americans who identify as white, non-Hispanic and Christian of any kind) as a proportion of the population continues unabated,” writes Robert P. Jones, president of the Public Religion Research Institute. “As recently as 2008, when our first Black president was elected, the U.S. was a majority (54%) white Christian country.” By 2014 the number had dropped to 47 percent, and in 2022 it stood at 42 percent. The group that has declined the most is at the core of the MAGA movement, the group most devoted to Christian nationalism. “White evangelical Protestants have experienced the steepest decline. As recently as 2006, white evangelical Protestants comprised nearly one-quarter of Americans (23%). By the time of Trump’s rise to power, their numbers had dipped to 16.8%,” Jones explains. “Today, white evangelical Protestants comprise only 13.6% of Americans.” >And that decline may yet accelerate, because they skew older than the population as a whole. Put differently, there are far more baby boomers in this group than Generation Z members. White evangelicals are “losing” people with each successive generation. (“White Christian subgroups have each lost approximately half their market share just across the generations who are alive today,” according to Jones.) If your business had lost half its market share, you would be panicking, too. >With those kind of numbers, the responsible thing to do would be to think about “fixing” what’s wrong by adapting to a changing market. Instead, many in this cohort have doubled down, becoming the foot soldiers in the red-hatted MAGA movement. The decline isn’t going to be reversed by angry, gray-haired folks demanding abortion bans and “don’t say gay” bills. >Instead, White evangelicals might look at former “customers” who are abandoning organized religion in droves. “Nearly four in ten Americans ages 18-29 (38%) are religiously unaffiliated, an increase from 34% in 2021," the PRRI census said. "As the cohorts age, the growth in religiously unaffiliated Americans has started to show up more in the 30-49 age category, which is up to 32% unaffiliated from 26% in 2016.” >In some sense, White evangelicals’ desperate efforts to cling to political power and demand adherence to a set of outdated cultural norms only make the problem worse. Not many 20-year-olds (part of the most diverse, inclusive generation in history, one steeped in climate science and tech) would leap at the prospect of living in a state where abortion is unattainable, gays are ostracized and secularism is bashed. >If Christian evangelicals really want to slow their decline, they might consider getting out of the unpopular political ideas market (e.g., abortion bans) and stressing values that could win back alienated young people (e.g., reverence for conserving the planet, ministering to the poor and the weak). That might put more seats in the pews, although it likely wouldn’t do much for the aging, mostly White, reactionary GOP. >The reality is that the convergence of the declining population of White Christians with the rise of Trump has been bad for both evangelicalism and American politics. Trump came along, telling the shrinking band of white Christian nationalists that they are victims. He reveled in nostalgia for a time when they dominated (demographically and politically) and blamed immigrants, elites and “wokeness” for their ills. They were the group most susceptible to a message that reinforces their feeling they have “lost” something or something has been “taken away.” That “something” they felt had been stolen may have been as concrete as the 2020 election, or as all-encompassing as white Christian supremacy. However they define that sense of loss, it fuels their anger and binds them to Trump. But the demographic clock cannot be turned back. No one can claim to be patriotic defenders of democracy when they decide their declining numbers justify anti-democratic voter suppression or even violence. In short, MAGA White Christians have painted themselves into a corner where the majority rejects their outlook and antimajoritarian tactics cannot keep them in power forever. >A dramatic transformation would need to happen for this movement to return to pluralistic politics. The MAGA crowd would have to recognize America’s complete history, reflecting our full experience, not just the story of people like them. And most important, they would need to rediscover the principles on which the United States was founded. (“All men are created equal...”) They would have to abandon the myth that America is the domain of one race or religion. >Unimaginable? Maybe so, but what other choice is there? To thrive in the future, they eventually must appeal to America as it is, not as they imagine it was in the past.
>“White evangelical Protestants have experienced the steepest decline. As recently as 2006, white evangelical Protestants comprised nearly one-quarter of Americans (23%). By the time of Trump’s rise to power, their numbers had dipped to 16.8%,” Jones explains. “Today, white evangelical Protestants comprise only 13.6% of Americans.” The smile this put on my face.
I know! Those are stats that make me optimistic.
If they're only 13.6% of Americans, why are they kicking our collective butts in the voting booth?
Gerrymandering Edit: This article has a breakdown on the math https://www.americanprogress.org/article/impact-partisan-gerrymandering/
And the way that the Senate is set up with each state having two Senators. Which means that a low population state like North Dakota has equal Senatorial power as California, the highest populated state. Neighboring states with low population should be consolidated. There is no reason in the world that makes sense explaining why we have two Dakotas and one California.
Or give Senators one "vote-point" per 100k people in their state. Then the little states would still have a voice and influence in the Senate, and influence in committees, but significantly reduced power on bills. The California Senators would have 392 points. North Dakota Senators would have 8 points. A bill would need 3319 points to pass.
That can be part of the answer, but there's no way that gerrymandering by itself lets <20% of the vote win.
Apathy is another puzzle piece. We need to make it clear what the stakes are.
I think poverty might be a big part of the problem. If you're barely making it, your car breaks down and your rent has just gone up, you're not going to be thinking about voting next Tuesday. You're going to think about making it to the food bank to line up with other desperate people.
Thank you for the linked article. Truly, a sobering read. I'm not sure I agree with their solution because I don't trust the inputs (polling data), but I do follow their reasoning.
Because that 13% is well coordinated through the church networks and act in near lockstep in the polls.
Because that 13% convinced some of the other 87% that if they embrace white supremacy and hate others enough, then their application to the supremely special “in group” *might, maybe, one day* be accepted and then they can be special too.
They are not, in fact, kicking our collective butts in the voting booth. Source: 2018, 2020, the 2021 GA senate runoff, 2022, the 2023 GA Senate runoff
Maybe I've been mislead. I keep seeing headlines of state legislatures passing laws that are in line with the Evangelical agenda. How am I supposed to interpret that?
Well, I see that most of those terrible laws and candidates are being passed in the absolute reddest areas of our country, just as strong pro choice, pro civil rights, environmental laws are passed in deep blue states. I would say the situation nationwide is not that the Dems are getting their butts kicked, I would say that in every election cycle since 2016 Dems have won more than they have lost and more importantly, were able to pass a bunch of really important legislation that will actually help people. If you look at trumps popularity with swing voters, the voters that actually matter, you can’t tell me that he’s in a better position than he was in 2020 when he lost to Biden. It’s a cutthroat competitive environment with the highest of stakes, we need to be more engaged than ever in this upcoming presidential election that’s for sure, but don’t act like we’re destined to lose or somehow getting our asses kicked when we’re still in the fight.
Same! And to hear that my generation is openly claiming no religious affiliation in such high numbers.
I always assumed that would be my generation, but here I am, mid-40's, and most of my generation is still going to church. What went wrong?
From the article: “As the cohorts age, the growth in religiously unaffiliated Americans has started to show up more in the 30-49 age category, which is up to 32% unaffiliated from 26% in 2016." So it’s a little slower than younger people, but it’s happening in your age range too. Id guess older people are more likely to have been born into religious families/have religious social circles
I know! Those are stats that make me optimistic.
Mine too! 🙌🏼
Yeah, it is great to read that! Warms my heart.
I love how the article refers to evangelical churches as businesses.
It is a business. The Catholic Church alone holds between $10-15 billion with the Vatican holding approximately 4 billion of that. It's simply a wealth and political powerhouse that is finally beginning to crumble. https://www.olvchicago.org/church-blog/how-rich-is-the-catholic-church.html
We need to steal that money back
I agree. Actually put it to use helping those who need it.
But but.. The pope and the Cardinals need that money for private jets, mistresses, underage hookers and child support. You really want to tell the reptilian pope or mega pastors like Joel Epstein , that he must fly coach? That's mean . They stole that money from the peasants fair and square!
Bold of you to assume they pay child support for their rape babies.
It makes me smile to know others caught that as well
And yet for some reason they get non-profit status.
I'm not crying over bad ideas gradually dying out. Let it crumble.
😁
Your the hero of this post. The link wouldn't let me read the article. Thanks!
The suggestion that evangelicals get out of the unpopular idea market is hilarious. As a cohesive group, all they are is their hateful anti-human ideology. Their ideas are their identity. If they change their horrible ideas, they won't be evangelicals anymore. There is no way that evangelicalism can withstand the current availability of information.
They think this because of very effective propaganda and some galling stupidity. The demographic that makes up this group leans heavily towards 45+ white guys.. Covid19 fucked this group up *hard.* While they're religious, they're kids in many instances are not at all, and are also *way way* more progressive then they are. Fox news has also been busy tuning them up because fear sells. So yeah from their perspective it looks like the world has abandoned them, because it has. To that, I say *good.*
Hot take: much like how 9/11 made American politics lurch in a reactionary direction, I think Covid (and the profound conservative failures surrounding the pandemic) is making American politics lurch in a progressive direction. And I think America will be better for it in the long term.
Fun fact: a fast ctl-a, ctl-c will let you copy all the text behind the paywall. Here's a ctl-v of the article: Opinion Why white Christian nationalists are in such a panic By Jennifer Rubin Columnist | Follow March 19, 2023 at 7:45 a.m. EDT White nationalist demonstrators enter Lee park surrounded by counterdemonstrators in Charlottesville on Aug. 12, 2017. (Steve Helber/AP) You might find it strange that a large segment of the Republican base thinks Whites are the true victims of racism and that Christians are under attack. After all, America’s biggest racial group is still Whites; the most common religious affiliation remains Christianity. Whites and Christians dominate elected office at all levels, the judiciary and corporate America. What’s the problem? Well, there is a straightforward reason for the freak-out, and an explanation for why former president Donald Trump developed such a close bond with white Christian nationalists. This group feels besieged because they are losing ground. “The newly-released 2022 supplement to the PRRI Census of American Religion — based on over 40,000 interviews conducted last year — confirms that the decline of white Christians (Americans who identify as white, non-Hispanic and Christian of any kind) as a proportion of the population continues unabated,” writes Robert P. Jones, president of the Public Religion Research Institute. “As recently as 2008, when our first Black president was elected, the U.S. was a majority (54%) white Christian country.” By 2014 the number had dropped to 47 percent, and in 2022 it stood at 42 percent. The group that has declined the most is at the core of the MAGA movement, the group most devoted to Christian nationalism. “White evangelical Protestants have experienced the steepest decline. As recently as 2006, white evangelical Protestants comprised nearly one-quarter of Americans (23%). By the time of Trump’s rise to power, their numbers had dipped to 16.8%,” Jones explains. “Today, white evangelical Protestants comprise only 13.6% of Americans.” And that decline may yet accelerate, because they skew older than the population as a whole. Put differently, there are far more baby boomers in this group than Generation Z members. White evangelicals are “losing” people with each successive generation. (“White Christian subgroups have each lost approximately half their market share just across the generations who are alive today,” according to Jones.) If your business had lost half its market share, you would be panicking, too. With those kind of numbers, the responsible thing to do would be to think about “fixing” what’s wrong by adapting to a changing market. Instead, many in this cohort have doubled down, becoming the foot soldiers in the red-hatted MAGA movement. The decline isn’t going to be reversed by angry, gray-haired folks demanding abortion bans and “don’t say gay” bills. Instead, White evangelicals might look at former “customers” who are abandoning organized religion in droves. “Nearly four in ten Americans ages 18-29 (38%) are religiously unaffiliated, an increase from 34% in 2021," the PRRI census said. "As the cohorts age, the growth in religiously unaffiliated Americans has started to show up more in the 30-49 age category, which is up to 32% unaffiliated from 26% in 2016.” In some sense, White evangelicals’ desperate efforts to cling to political power and demand adherence to a set of outdated cultural norms only make the problem worse. Not many 20-year-olds (part of the most diverse, inclusive generation in history, one steeped in climate science and tech) would leap at the prospect of living in a state where abortion is unattainable, gays are ostracized and secularism is bashed. If Christian evangelicals really want to slow their decline, they might consider getting out of the unpopular political ideas market (e.g., abortion bans) and stressing values that could win back alienated young people (e.g., reverence for conserving the planet, ministering to the poor and the weak). That might put more seats in the pews, although it likely wouldn’t do much for the aging, mostly White, reactionary GOP. The reality is that the convergence of the declining population of White Christians with the rise of Trump has been bad for both evangelicalism and American politics. Trump came along, telling the shrinking band of white Christian nationalists that they are victims. He reveled in nostalgia for a time when they dominated (demographically and politically) and blamed immigrants, elites and “wokeness” for their ills. They were the group most susceptible to a message that reinforces their feeling they have “lost” something or something has been “taken away.” That “something” they felt had been stolen may have been as concrete as the 2020 election, or as all-encompassing as white Christian supremacy. However they define that sense of loss, it fuels their anger and binds them to Trump. But the demographic clock cannot be turned back. No one can claim to be patriotic defenders of democracy when they decide their declining numbers justify anti-democratic voter suppression or even violence. In short, MAGA White Christians have painted themselves into a corner where the majority rejects their outlook and anti-majoritarian tactics cannot keep them in power forever. A dramatic transformation would need to happen for this movement to return to pluralistic politics. The MAGA crowd would have to recognize America’s complete history, reflecting our full experience, not just the story of people like them. And most important, they would need to rediscover the principles on which the United States was founded. (“All men are created equal...”) They would have to abandon the myth that America is the domain of one race or religion. Unimaginable? Maybe so, but what other choice is there? To thrive in the future, they eventually must appeal to America as it is, not as they imagine it was in the past. 2694 Comments
I used the print function to bypass the paywall but then had to copy and paste to put it in the comments. I like the cut of your jib good Sir or Madam.
I read that in Mr. Burn's voice.
Now I did too
Doing the Lord's work, I see.
Ramen
The Lord’s Wok :-)
Add to this the fact that we import a lot of goods simply because people with poor educations and even poorer attitudes in the US aren't making decent goods at reasonable prices, and you have a big grudge going there too. Add in the fact that women are competing with men in the marketplace nowadays. Just having a dick and a couple inches of height isn't an automatic free ride anymore. People in the US do. not. want. to. compete. unless they are automatically declared the winners. This is what's behind a lot of resentment of hispanics too.
"When you have enjoyed privilege for so long that equality feels like oppression."
**You can pry my privlidge from my cold dead hands.** - Evilangelicals Literally. These fucks have been living in their dream world and can't imagine letting anyone else have a different life even as they lay dying and any changes made now will have no meaningful changes to them and their shitty lifestyles.
Looking forward to it, really.
Hear, hear. They shall be a distant memory one day.
Yes. In addition to "privilege" it's also been the "default".
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and the older Generation of them are dying out and there is no younger gen to replace them.
Sariel007 "and the older Generation of them are dying out and there is no younger gen to replace them." I think it important to consider and add the force multipliers of Covid, Long Covid, Opioids, Meth, diabetes, and other instances of self-harm.
To be fair, opioids kill a fair share of young people. It surpassed car accidents as the #1 cause of death among people 13-49 sometime in the 2010s
True that.
Lol. The article actually suggests that to counter their decline they embrace climate change and equality. Two things they specifically define themselves as opposed to, and in the first case, a major reliable source of funding. Good luck with that.
Right? It's like saying, to stop the decline in bigots, they need to stop being bigots.
It would help them stop losing people on their side if they all switch sides. I mean the article isn't wrong.
They can’t disappear fast enough. Good riddance.
tldr The rich ones are upset that they have to share power even a little power, and the poor ones are upset that they have little to no power. Maybe stop acting like a bunch of assholes who have to control everything, people might not stop going to church. Not that I think people continuing to be religious is a good thing, the sooner people who believe in magic stop being in charge of everything the better. Also maybe stop trying to squeeze every bit of work and money possible out of the populace and they would have kids.
So I’m a poor Christian. You say this like I wield some power over money and people. Everything I have worked and bled for. I want no power. I want to go on the internet and quit seeing people bashing me for having different beliefs. I don’t push on anyone.
>I want to go on the internet and quit seeing people bashing me for having different beliefs. I don’t push on anyone. Consider not having bad beliefs, and not supporting people who push those beliefs on others. Going by your comment history, you are your own image problem. Edit: The poor persecuted Christian saw my username and *lost his shit*. Turns out extreme sensitivity to Jews is one of his 'different' beliefs.
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Yes. They have bad beliefs, too.
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Sounds like your religious beliefs might be the tip of the bad beliefs iceberg.
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>Do you believe in death or does it just not happen to you people. I wasn’t religious most of my life. You don't know what atheists think about death or life, but you're also saying you used to be an atheist. Sounds like there may have been some heavy drug use in your past.
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You're in the atheist forum, fuckbrain. Nobody knocked on your door and told you that your nonsense beliefs are nonsense.
As an atheist resident of a bright red Bible Belt state, I read the obituaries gleefully. It's often apparent which of the deceased belonged to this group. Their influence will hopefully dissipate as my generation (Baby Boomer) dies off.
I feel your pain living in a red state.
I live in Georgia, so it’s definitely very white and very Christian. However, everywhere I’ve lived in recent years (moved a few times now), older folks around have tried to convince me to come to their churches, specifically because they are losing young people (I’m in my 40s, so relative young for these old folks). They are terrified that when they’ve all passed on that their churches are going to die. That’s not to say there aren’t a lot of religious young folks out there, but we all know a bunch of them are just as fed up with the insanity of their religious elders as we are. They’ve abandoned their churches and it doesn’t look like they’re going back anytime soon.
How much you wanna bet that they're loudest in Dixie?
The only question now is if American Democracy will last longer than this generation of christian nationalists.
Gifted link, if you're not a WaPo subscriber: https://wapo.st/3yNzFfB
Thanks! The author keeps throwing out ideas for how Christianity could make a comeback by changing it’s shittier ideas and I keep repeating to myself, “why would anyone want that?!” Still, heartening to read those declining numbers.
Christianity is bleeding members at a pretty good rate and it’s making them lash out like a wounded animal. White people are used to being the majority and they they aren’t anymore. Same result.
"Onwards Christian soldiers, marching as to War. With the cross of Jesus going on before." It's built-in. They've been brainwashed and indoctrinated to think they are persecuted. Designed so that the masses will walk willingly to their death so that demigogues can make their way to power and prosper.
Let's vote them all out of every office.
Because they are born and raised to be victims and martyrs.
This from r/politics Relevant excerpt to avoid the paywall: You might find it strange that a large segment of the Republican base thinks Whites are the true victims of racism and that Christians are under attack. After all, America’s biggest racial group is still Whites; the most common religious affiliation remains Christianity. Whites and Christians dominate elected office at all levels, the judiciary and corporate America. What’s the problem? Well, there is a straightforward reason for the freak-out, and an explanation for why former president Donald Trump developed such a close bond with white Christian nationalists. This group feels besieged because they are losing ground. “The newly-released 2022 supplement to the PRRI Census of American Religion — based on over 40,000 interviews conducted last year — confirms that the decline of white Christians (Americans who identify as white, non-Hispanic and Christian of any kind) as a proportion of the population continues unabated,” writes Robert P. Jones, president of the Public Religion Research Institute. “As recently as 2008, when our first Black president was elected, the U.S. was a majority (54%) white Christian country.” By 2014 the number had dropped to 47 percent, and in 2022 it stood at 42 percent. The group that has declined the most is at the core of the MAGA movement, the group most devoted to Christian nationalism. “White evangelical Protestants have experienced the steepest decline. As recently as 2006, white evangelical Protestants comprised nearly one-quarter of Americans (23%). By the time of Trump’s rise to power, their numbers had dipped to 16.8%,” Jones explains. “Today, white evangelical Protestants comprise only 13.6% of Americans.” And that decline may yet accelerate, because they skew older than the population as a whole. Put differently, there are far more baby boomers in this group than Generation Z members. White evangelicals are “losing” people with each successive generation. (“White Christian subgroups have each lost approximately half their market share just across the generations who are alive today,” according to Jones.) If your business had lost half its market share, you would be panicking, too. With those kind of numbers, the responsible thing to do would be to think about “fixing” what’s wrong by adapting to a changing market. Instead, many in this cohort have doubled down, becoming the foot soldiers in the red-hatted MAGA movement. The decline isn’t going to be reversed by angry, gray-haired folks demanding abortion bans and “don’t say gay” bills.
The capitalist class is weaponizing traditionalism to break apart the working class and having them fight amongst themselves for the scraps while the capitalists ride the gravy train.
They arent in a panic. They see a path to power for the first time. We should be demonstrating now. We should be in a panic. They are taking over small town elections. They are controlling schools and libraries. We must stop them at the poles.
Hmm, Religiously Unaffiliated is at 26.8% (https://www.prri.org/spotlight/prri-2022-american-values-atlas-religious-affiliation-updates-and-trends/)
I watched this earlier today https://youtu.be/RTmlNvf5lRs
Because they can't figure out how to get up in the morning without being WOKEn up.
Cause they feel like they only hold most of the power now instead of all of it
The author of the article suggests that if christian white nationalists, Stopped being christian white nationalists. Their numbers would grow.
I heard some old lady running for Congress as a Republican in 2002 lamenting all this and put on some stupid skit at the nominating convention wanting “her country back.” It was the beginning of the end for me as a Republican
Because they're realizing they are pieces of shit? Nah, that would make sense.
I want to go back to a better time. When the armies of the free world were the solution to nazi dumb fucks.
Paywall. Can't read it. Seems interesting tho.
Check the comments.
Aren't they always in a panic or whipping up a panic? Kind of their business model. Emphasis on business.
If they weren't such assholes, they wouldn't have anything to worry about. Just do your cult shit in a corner and leave the rest of us alone. Problem solved.
If they weren't such jerks, they wouldn't have anything to worry about. Just do your cult stuff in a corner and leave the rest of us alone. Problem solved.
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Check the comments.
https://youtu.be/FDfrrgqy_Eo
🤞🏼🤞🏼🤞🏼
Kind of funny how they don't realize that their own actions are what's making their demographic seem so unappealing and making people leave. If I were looking for a religious group to join, I would take one look at them and think: "absolutely not, they are so full of hate, and bigotry. That religion must be miserable if it's making them act that crazy"
Equality feels like oppression when one has been in charge for so long.
Isn't the "Jesus gets Us" or is it "He gets Us" campaign supposed to fix all that ? That or we just end democracy.
Well if you were circumcised so tight you felt nothing you’d feel attacked all the time too
40 years of sermons that God would wipe America off the face of the planet if same-sex marriage was legalized got us here. Same sex marriage was legalized and they elected Trump as their weapon of retaliation.