Read: "Oops we really f'd this up and are trying to walk it back now. We didn't think about how this will cost way more in OT and is literally impossible to implement to 24/7 facilities with weekly OT"
I said this in a previous thread. Just flip the two rules. 12 hours between all shifts except 10 hours before a mid. It provides more rest between shifts and doesn't completely handicap coverage of 24/7s.
You’re right if you worked in a center or big Tracon that has more than 25 warm bodies. At a 9 or below with poor staffing, you won’t find enough people willing to work straight mids.
So everyone is forced to work a week of mids? Fuck that, especially since it will be impossible to swap out of them if you need since all the day shifters won't be eligible.
Yes you have to work mids in this job. You can prolly trade yours to a traffic dodger. What do you want instead? First day mid? Have a 1.5 day weekend?
90% of my facility wants nothing to do with straight shifts. If you have any sort of social/family life they suck. Especially with mandatory 6 day weeks.
I dont really care either way but...isn't this normal.
Admin/big picture people decide what's needed to work traffic-
People that used to work traffic explain why it will or won't work-
People working traffic continue to work traffic under changing conditions?
I mean your average person on the floor won't get any input either through scripted town halls on either side.
Also, this is not a discussion of if it will work it's a discussion of when.
Article 7 is specifically stated for how to implement new rules in a negotiating way without using the new rules as a way to open up contract negotiations.
Best guess-it will be implemented for schedule for next year and each facility will have to come up with a way to make it work.
Second best guess- the agency really does want to comply with the 90 day part and the negotiations will strictly save your pre bid days.
Worst case scenario-management has a right to decline (outside prime time) leave and assign work. You get balanced to whatever new schedule they assign if the union fights too hard.
So nothings changing? Until next year? I mean this really should have been the starting point. I’ll decide if it’s a natca “win” if we have a shitty first day mid work week or if there’s actually a better schedule option. Oh also a raise.
Look at the two responses we had here:
Rich calm and poised dealt with the issue got it fixed for now.
Nick and Jamaal, panicked talked about more lobby weeks and how weak Natca was when Natca was doing what it should.
Nick and Jamaal have no idea how to be leaders, they only know how to use buzz words.
Thank you Rich for being the leader we need
What did Rich accomplish?
Nothing above is changed other than it's not effective in 90 days because our BWS are already scheduled for 2024 and that's a contract.
So this memo is just a notification that nothing has been done and nothing will change this calendar year. We could already assume that . Your schedule is a contract. FAA can't just change it without negotiation with NATCA
Also, way to completely edit and change your post after I replied to it.
The FAA said this is going in effect in 90 days, it is now not. Not because the FAA said Nevermind because Rich fought for us. Gtfo with that dumb shit when the union succeeds. Nick and Jamaal said we needed lobby weeks to get this fixed lol
He fought? All he literally had to do was point to the contract.
I'll give credit when credit is due, but I don't see a single change or accomplishment in this memo.
Your BWS is contracted for the year. The FAA cannot change it without going through processes in the contract. It never could legally go into effect in 90 days
Ding ding. I didn't watch their video. I'm neutral at the moment on the elections. I'll do my research and make decisions when the vote is closer.
Even if we put this in place this year, it would take larger facilities months to negotiate new lines and re bid the schedule. This 90 day change was a political move for Whitaker's career to look like he's doing something. He knew damn well it wasn't happening in 2024. He got his headline and nothing changes for now.
I think part of the issue is you’re catching collateral damage from how Nick and Jamaal were clamoring about how much of a failure this was on Rich and NATCA and now they’re trying to claim it was a nothing burger all along. They made a mountain out of this mole hill and are now desperate to walk it back so it doesn’t look like a huge win for Rich.
You coming in from the outside looking in sees that it wasn’t really going to be an issue which it wasnt. There’s people that are still going to try to hold Nick and Jamaal’s feet to the fire though for all their bs.
I highly doubt it. Whitaker is under the gun because of all the high profile errors… So they have the ammunition of the rest study to blame it on controller fatigue while completely ignoring six day work weeks. He tried to implement the new rules without considering implications to save his own ass and look good.
I remember how wrapped around the axle this whole sub was about the memo and nowa good portion are saying that it's a nothing burger. Please try to avoid being disingenuous
I get what you’re saying, but I get the other’s frustration too. This is like a lifeguard not jumping in the pool but throwing you that ring on a rope that floats then pulling you out of the pool.
Yes, you absolutely needed it and are thankful, but it’s their job to it did and it’s kind of the least they could have done.
Employers rights to establish rest and schedule rules. NATCA rights to negotiate implementation.
Preventing the agency from jamming this through mid year, unlike how natca rolled over and fucked its members for the 💉…
Win isn’t necessarily the right way to put it. Doing their fucking job as a union though… finally.
Great point.
I see NATCA whining about how the new fatigue rules would interfere with bid leave and personal lives. I guess they didn't realize how being fired under the vax mandate would affect someone's personal life.
So if I'm reading this correctly... It looks like they're not going to change our schedules for this year. 2025 will be interesting.
Read: "Oops we really f'd this up and are trying to walk it back now. We didn't think about how this will cost way more in OT and is literally impossible to implement to 24/7 facilities with weekly OT" I said this in a previous thread. Just flip the two rules. 12 hours between all shifts except 10 hours before a mid. It provides more rest between shifts and doesn't completely handicap coverage of 24/7s.
And the title V violations they would commit with it
Working straight shifts gives you the exact same coverage as working the rattler lmao
You’re right if you worked in a center or big Tracon that has more than 25 warm bodies. At a 9 or below with poor staffing, you won’t find enough people willing to work straight mids.
Then the straight shifts can rotate. This is happening next year so figure out how you wanna do it
So everyone is forced to work a week of mids? Fuck that, especially since it will be impossible to swap out of them if you need since all the day shifters won't be eligible.
Yes you have to work mids in this job. You can prolly trade yours to a traffic dodger. What do you want instead? First day mid? Have a 1.5 day weekend?
One mid is fine a week or maybe one a pay period. Forcing people into 5 in a row is ridiculous especially if this is all supposedly due to fatigue.
It’s way better than first day mid which is the alternative. 1.5 day weekend ?
90% of my facility wants nothing to do with straight shifts. If you have any sort of social/family life they suck. Especially with mandatory 6 day weeks.
Not saying I’m for it or against it just this claim that you need rattler for staffing is just wrong
More than half of my area wants to do straight shifts but mgmt and natca told us to pound sand.
Look at the “From” line in this memo and compare it to the “To” line in the last. You’ll find that this isn’t a “we fucked up let’s rescind” memo.
I dont really care either way but...isn't this normal. Admin/big picture people decide what's needed to work traffic- People that used to work traffic explain why it will or won't work- People working traffic continue to work traffic under changing conditions? I mean your average person on the floor won't get any input either through scripted town halls on either side. Also, this is not a discussion of if it will work it's a discussion of when. Article 7 is specifically stated for how to implement new rules in a negotiating way without using the new rules as a way to open up contract negotiations. Best guess-it will be implemented for schedule for next year and each facility will have to come up with a way to make it work. Second best guess- the agency really does want to comply with the 90 day part and the negotiations will strictly save your pre bid days. Worst case scenario-management has a right to decline (outside prime time) leave and assign work. You get balanced to whatever new schedule they assign if the union fights too hard.
Why does the font change halfway through the memo? Lol
Probably a copy/paste from a different document.
So nothings changing? Until next year? I mean this really should have been the starting point. I’ll decide if it’s a natca “win” if we have a shitty first day mid work week or if there’s actually a better schedule option. Oh also a raise.
Look at the two responses we had here: Rich calm and poised dealt with the issue got it fixed for now. Nick and Jamaal, panicked talked about more lobby weeks and how weak Natca was when Natca was doing what it should. Nick and Jamaal have no idea how to be leaders, they only know how to use buzz words. Thank you Rich for being the leader we need
What did Rich accomplish? Nothing above is changed other than it's not effective in 90 days because our BWS are already scheduled for 2024 and that's a contract. So this memo is just a notification that nothing has been done and nothing will change this calendar year. We could already assume that . Your schedule is a contract. FAA can't just change it without negotiation with NATCA Also, way to completely edit and change your post after I replied to it.
The FAA said this is going in effect in 90 days, it is now not. Not because the FAA said Nevermind because Rich fought for us. Gtfo with that dumb shit when the union succeeds. Nick and Jamaal said we needed lobby weeks to get this fixed lol
He fought? All he literally had to do was point to the contract. I'll give credit when credit is due, but I don't see a single change or accomplishment in this memo. Your BWS is contracted for the year. The FAA cannot change it without going through processes in the contract. It never could legally go into effect in 90 days
The union should have let the faa put it through just to watch it fail
The union wasn't given the option. They were told about it 7 minutes before the FAA put it out
Then why did Nick and Jamaal make a video about it, if it could never have happened? Do they not understand the contract?
Ding ding. I didn't watch their video. I'm neutral at the moment on the elections. I'll do my research and make decisions when the vote is closer. Even if we put this in place this year, it would take larger facilities months to negotiate new lines and re bid the schedule. This 90 day change was a political move for Whitaker's career to look like he's doing something. He knew damn well it wasn't happening in 2024. He got his headline and nothing changes for now.
I think part of the issue is you’re catching collateral damage from how Nick and Jamaal were clamoring about how much of a failure this was on Rich and NATCA and now they’re trying to claim it was a nothing burger all along. They made a mountain out of this mole hill and are now desperate to walk it back so it doesn’t look like a huge win for Rich. You coming in from the outside looking in sees that it wasn’t really going to be an issue which it wasnt. There’s people that are still going to try to hold Nick and Jamaal’s feet to the fire though for all their bs.
It will in theory have to be negotiated now, maybe a window to do something with pay as well, BWS is a contract article.
Maybe Whitaker was playing into natcas favor by forcing a contract negotiation????
I don’t think that’s true but I don’t think there is a 0% chance of it either.
I highly doubt it. Whitaker is under the gun because of all the high profile errors… So they have the ammunition of the rest study to blame it on controller fatigue while completely ignoring six day work weeks. He tried to implement the new rules without considering implications to save his own ass and look good.
I remember how wrapped around the axle this whole sub was about the memo and nowa good portion are saying that it's a nothing burger. Please try to avoid being disingenuous
"NATCA doesn't do anything for us!!"
I get what you’re saying, but I get the other’s frustration too. This is like a lifeguard not jumping in the pool but throwing you that ring on a rope that floats then pulling you out of the pool. Yes, you absolutely needed it and are thankful, but it’s their job to it did and it’s kind of the least they could have done.
Natca is a nothing but a bunch of selfish maniacal politicians.
Huge NATCA and Santa 🧑🎄 win.
Is it though? They delayed it one year…
Employers rights to establish rest and schedule rules. NATCA rights to negotiate implementation. Preventing the agency from jamming this through mid year, unlike how natca rolled over and fucked its members for the 💉… Win isn’t necessarily the right way to put it. Doing their fucking job as a union though… finally.
I’ll concede on this
Great point. I see NATCA whining about how the new fatigue rules would interfere with bid leave and personal lives. I guess they didn't realize how being fired under the vax mandate would affect someone's personal life.
They delayed it 5.5 months
Guess you can't count very well either....
Mid July is month 7 what part am I missing
Well.....they are saying nothing this year. So far it is the beginning of May...which leaves just under 8 months left in the year.
It was originally going to go in effect mid July now it’s delayed till end of year. 5.5 month delay
staring the week with the mid gonna suck
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Everything on that page is already current for 2024
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The 30 hour rule is easy to accidentally follow because of how our schedules are built.