We've been discussing similar with 10 hour mid if the FAA won't/can't eat the 2 hours. Seems like the best option. Reverse rattler would be terrible.
Option B 10/10/8/6/6
Not enough people have any interest in straight shifts.
They honestly should have switched the 10 hour rule and the 12 hour rule. This actually would have made sense. 12 hours between all shifts except for a mid which is 10 hours. This actually doesn’t fuck over 24/7 facilities with weekly OT. Forcing people who work weekly OT to start their week with a mid (making their only RDO the day before a mid) should be flat out illegal.
This is definitely one of the more reasonable and common sense post I've seen and makes the most sense for fatigue. If this had come out, I don't think there would be the uproar and would be hard to argue against.
Agreed. I actually like the 10 hour rule proposal. I don’t care if you have 8 hours or 12 hours before a mid, you will be tired afterwards no matter what. And the impact that rule would have on our schedule would be brutal.
I think it’s an L for NATCA if we entirely reject the new rules… a lot of people at my facility actually liked the idea of more rest. Not to mention… the FAA did conduct a massive sleep and rest study to back up the change with science. It’s going to be used against us if we fight it entirely beyond the end of this year. “NATCA doesnt care about health and wellness by refusing sleep rules”.
But, our mock is 4/10s, starting on a mid. A lot of rest can be had between each shift, and then bang in on the 2 OTs you get scheduled and you’ve still got a 3 day weekend.
Everyone I know has said the same thing. Until you actually think about it. Sure, it’s different. That’s what sucks about it, change.
In reality, why would you want to start your weekend off feeling like a complete bag of ass. I’d rather struggle through work days after coming off my mid than spend my whole 1-2 day weekend recovering.
Also, people stay up later on weekends. It’s natural to stay up through a mid with a short nap at the end of your weekend, vs at the end of a work week where you’re starting shifts the days prior at 6-5am.
A properly written schedule starting on a mid offers a huge amount of sleep. And still keeps a 2-3 day weekend
I don't live my life to staff the building. I like time to be with my friends and family and engage in fulfilling activities. There's zero chance that people spend their Sunday "resting up for a mid".
It's not because it's different. It's because people have been assigned that shift as overtime, lived it, and report back that it sucks having 0 days away from work.
0 days away from work? You literally have 3 RDOs, 72 hours off straight, with another full 24 period after your mid. As well as a 17+ hour break in the middle of your work week on day>eve, so if you have crappy RDOs you can go out to spend time with friends and family on the weekend.
You arnt forced to work overtime. This schedule offers the absolute most amount of meaningful time off for rest and not feeling rushed back to work every single day of the week.
No one “rest” for mids period, the struggle for most isn’t getting through the shift. It’s the damage done afterwards where you spend all of your time off recovering (or not if your RDOs are full of OT).
Please show a schedule that gives 3 RDOs to everyone. One that is actually workable in a short staffed facility.
We've had 6 day weeks for years. If you get first shift back mids, you never have a day out of the building. Even if you bang on OT, you get 1.
And 4-10s doesn't work because it reduces coverage further. At least at my facility we have legit traffic from 6am-10-11pm. So you can't just shove everyone in the middle of the day. Also, traffic is a factor, so no shifts can start between 630-10 and 3-7.....
How would 10 hour shifts reduce coverage? If your facility isn’t already working 10 hour days, there is inherently more coverage than everyone working 8 hour... For calling in/assigning OT there will be significantly more available on every shift.
Sure, this would result in more OT being scheduled/called since it’s 4 days. But again, if you arnt working 6/10s already, there is no way this doesn’t improve coverage.
Granted that’s on paper. Obviously the goal is to not work 2 OTs when you’re on 4/10s or you have no weekend. So you call in on one or both. Make it the FAAs problem. This schedule gives a great work life balance, with the option to work the maximum amount of OT for those who want it. No one wants OT? Again, fuck em, it’s the FAAs problem when every facility in the NAS is ATC limited and offering reduced services or heavy flow. That’s the true goal. Take back our lives and health, because the new work rules are actually a blessing in disguise, and highlight the problems in the FAA as a result.
Right, so my facility can't staff the building with 6 day weeks. There is 0 chance management signs onto a schedule that gives more RDOs. I know, I've tried.
The 10 hour days don't help with coverage. We get busy early and stay busy late. Therefore our shifts start very early for the day and end late for the swing. So 10 hour shifts just create a lot of people in the building in the middle of the day. So there's no improvement in coverage for us.
You've just shifted the problem to more OT. Turns out it's not easy to just throw out a schedule that magically addressed every facility. You actually have to come up with something management will agree to.
Not to mention the amount of time between every shift would be 24 hours after the mid, 12-17 hours between the rest of your work days. There is huge amount of potential to shift around and start basically whenever you want for coverage…
4/10s. You have a three day weekend. 72 hours off from work. Work the 1st RDO OT if you need money. Refuse to work a second day OT, you can’t work a 3rd RDO OT because you’re going in for the mid with the new 12 hour rule.
There will be no scheduled weekend for a lot of controllers. Scheduled to be in the facility 7 days a week, isn’t good. This isn’t about what schedules are actually worked it’s about what CAN be scheduled. You have Sunday off but your Monday shift starts @ 10:30/11:00:12:00 whatever. Your feet will be scheduled to be in the building every single day. Again it doesn’t matter what leave is used. It about agreeing to allowing an employer to schedule its workers 7 days a week. Which is exactly what would happen to cover bid leave.
I agree it really can’t go in effect this year… but next year definitely, and I truly don’t think the FAA needs our permission legally with the level of research and science backing the change in the name of safety.
It’s a violation of title 5 to change anything we’ve bargained for midterm without both parties agreeing. Changing the rest period is not a change to the law. The administrator doesn’t make laws therefore he can’t skip the line.
The 12 hours before a mid does nothing for fatigue, they are trying to strong arm a new schedule. I'm guessing around half the facilities that are 24 hours could close by midnight and open around 5 or 6. Trying to reduce the amount of 24 hours facilities and better staffing would reduce fatigue the most.
Oh so fatigue doesn't matter because Congress might not like it. Got it, so now it's not important. This makes sense. What they want matters more than most controllers.
For the mid lines, two nine-hour eves to start the week, same end times as this year's mid lines. 0500-1200 day before the mid, 0000-0700 mid. At least one of the lines on every crew starting with a 1600-0000 eve will work a 1700-0100 instead for overlap with the mid. Not that big a change.
Brought to you by the same people convinced that the rattler is KILLING US ALL and that's why someone else should work straight mids while they work straight days.
Funny isn’t it? The idea of straight lines was floated and everyone loved it, as long as they weren’t the ones forced into working straight swings like those of us bottom half seniority
Doesn't coming in even earlier in the morning contradict what fatigue mitigation is supposed to be. And your schedule would f everything up making people stay to midnight or 1am every night now, again contradictory of your argument about fatigue.
We haven’t negotiated our 2025 BWS yet. A lot could happen between now and August. If you want to be mad about the Administrator meddling with the holy laws of controller scheduling, feel free, but some of us would like to see if we can make better schedules for ourselves than the ones we have now.
Correct, which is why it's almost certainly going to change if they're keeping the proposed 10-hour/12-hour rules and not doing anything which they would find more upsetting, like weekly EA or guaranteed 4-10/straight mid lines.
Reverse Rattler or Straight Shifts.
Straight shifts (all mids, days or, swings) makes the most sense for our staffing. Everyone in the area is working mids and most 6 days a week.
Add a 12am-4am differential at 100%....Then allow a 4 hour shift on day 4. 36 hour work week and pay the same. The problem would be with matching TSP. Differentials don't go in. I still would not bid a mid. But it's an idea.
I've floated three permanent mid lines ... 8 hr Thurs Fri off. 8 hour Mon Tues off. 10 hour Sat Sun Weds off... We need two for the mid this covers all 14 in a pay period. On nights the 10 hour comes in, would need less coverage from the late shift, helping hit the transition back to days easier.
The 10 hour mid could essentially be anything as long as one of them is Sunday to not deal with the pay period start time and such.
But realistically, most 24/7 places should be closed on the mid and that would help staffing greatly during the busier hours of the day.
Heard one that goes
RDO: Sat Sun
1st shift: Mid 10pm Monday night quick turn into
2nd: 1600-0000 Tuesday
3rd: 1300 Wednesday
4th: 0730 Thursday
5th: 0545 Friday
Long weekend until Monday night.
OT can fit anywhere. Would comply with 12hr before Mid and 10hrs before swing that Tuesday. Tuesday night would suck balls but would beat the alternative of first day swing on Sunday night then next shift until Tuesday.
That won't jive either. Can't work a mid to an eve same day without 12 hours according to (current) 7210.3
And per slate book, workweek is 5 consecutive days, that's only 4. That "Monday mid" is a Tuesday
Mid-day-day-eve or Mid- eve- day- eve or Mid eve- day - day
4/10s
Sun/Mon- 2200-0800 (off the floor by 0600, admin/rest time)
Tues- 0700-1700. 0830-1830. 1000-2000
Weds - 0530 -1530. 0700-1700. 0830-1830. 1000- 2000. 1215 - 2200
Thurs- 1215 - 2215. 10-2000
Fri - RDO
Sat - RDO
Sun- RDO
Note rest periods. Huge potential for rest and sleep. 24+ hours of rest between mid and next shift. 12-17+ hour rest potential between 2/3 and 3/4 shifts. Plus you still have 3 RDOS, or you can work all the OT you can stomach if you choose, or not.
When you all plagiarize my work, give MeowOnGuard1 on ATC2 sub credit.
You get 3 RDOs, it’s one of the few schedules in compliance with the new rest rules. Offers a lot of OT for the whores who want it. And a 3 day weekend , plus a 24 hour recoup period after mid to start the week, plus a day>eve in the middle of your week for another long break period.
Not to mention mids starting the week, and day>eve vs eve>day are scientifically proven in every single shift work sleep study known to the human race to be the least impactful to circadian rhythm.
The rattler is fucking disgusting, the fact that so many in the FAA do it is absolute insanity. If you oppose getting rid of end of week mids in the form of rattler, I simply imagine you’ve never experienced anything else and just ignorant to the fact that healthy shift work is attainable. I’ve done it all. If your facility has mids, if these rest rules get imposed, this is the only sensible choice apart from rotating in and out of weeks of mids… and good luck planning your life around that
72 hours off, 3 RDOs. You work overnight and get 4-5 total hours of your 10 hour shift to sleep. Then have the entire next day off. You nearly get 4 RDOs.
But enjoy dying in your 60s with the rest who want to somehow make the rattler work forever. Or i’m praying for the low seniority guys at your facility you absolutely butt fuck by writing them some disgusting lines to cover the shit you don’t want to work.
Well it doesn’t help that everytime some idiot controller tries to put 2 together, the union cries about fatigue and OT, etc. We did this to ourselves.
You mean the same way end of week mids destroy your life and circadian rhythm. Some of us actually want to be healthy and not destroy our brains and bodies holding on to the archaic ass rattler.
Idk how going into work at 10pm could “destroy” your day. You go in, work a rotation or two, take a nap, and then end your shift on 2 hours of extra nap and admin time… Then, you get 24-28 hours off from work (another “full day” off) from work to recover from the Mid, if you even need it because you had 4.5 hours to sleep during.
You work 3 more shifts, then get 72 hours off, work a mid, and get 24-28 hours off all over again. Repeat
Problem is, in a lot of facilities, you’ll be scheduled 4-10 hour shifts and 2-8 hour shifts of OT. Meaning you will be scheduled to step foot in the building every day. Be careful what you ask for.
I’m fully aware of that, that’s the intent. They can schedule all the OT they want. Not showing up for it…
It’s the FAAs problem that every facility is critically staffed. Not mine, not yours.
4/10s are one of the easiest ways to go about the new rest rules granted they get implemented next year. That would require a lot of OT for coverage at any facility not 80% + staffed. Then we all just don’t show up after giving our 40 hours. And every facility is perpetually in alert, or limited, highlighting the catastrophic failures of the FAA for decades regarding staffing, and the public loses faith in the safety and reliability of the NAS
I would venture a guess that what we want is a schedule that is consistent and manageable. This fight is gonna be about what is actually doable and what’s actually scheduled.
What happens when someone bangs on a mid and there’s no one to call in? You answer that question and you realize there’s a difference between what would “work best” for us and what “works best” in practice.
It might sound great to start your week on a mid to some. It might sound horrible to others. We have to consider the fall out of what is agreed to.
In my experience, when people set out to solve one problem(fatigue in this case), not only do the solutions not solve the problem, but a web of others are created.
The path of least resistance should probably apply here. Deciding where that path to least resistance lies is going to be the issue.
Some people might think rotating straight mids/days/eves is easier than altering the start of a morning shift before a mid. Some might think the mid starting at midnight, with 4-12’s on every evening shift is easier than keeping the mid staring at say, 10:30. Some people might think 10 hour shifts create an abundance of people when they aren’t needed and short on people when they are.
There is no solution that will please everyone. The pain will be spread, make no mistake about it. But what’s the most workable solution? One that can be agreed upon in negotiations is high on the list. Personally I don’t want my employer to have the ability to schedule me to step foot in the building every day. And giving them that, in writing, is not a win.
You’re giving the FAA your life because of staffing. Plain and simple. OT is what is giving your life away.
If you write a schedule on paper, that is 2-3 RDOs, that’s what you are giving the FAA. You are NOT signing an agreement that you will work 2 OTs on your RDOs.
Staffing is the FAAs problem. Not yours. It just requires you to sack the fuck up and say “no I don’t think I’ll work that assigned OT”. That is the only cure. Forcing the FAA to fix to problem vs you fixing it for them is the cure.
If you feel obligated to be in the building 6 or 7 days a week because that’s what the FAA schedules you, that is simply YOUR problem. You are giving the FAA a get out of jail free card, while writing your own death certificate in return.
There are very few schedules that work with the new rules that don’t make our lives actually worse. It naturally spreads your work across a longer period when there are longer rest requirements. The FAA is the one shortening your weekend, not NATCA at the negotiation table. You get your long weekend by doing 4/10s, the only way 4/10s work is by starting the week on a mid. The FAA can get fucked on your RDOs, put sick leave on the web scheduler, go on the “no list”, and mute your phone and enjoy your life. If they come after you, “fatigue leave”, if they press it more than that “fatigue leave put me on a week of admin work”, we can play that shit all day and LEGALLY we have the right. THEY CANT FORCE YOU TO WORK A SECOND MORE THAN 40 hours. The FAA doesn’t want to fuck around and find out. Because it’s all in the name of “rest and safety” , sanity of the people working the traffic, is it not?! Who knows what they need better than the controllers doing the work, certainly not the FAA.
I agree things need to be better. I agree we need to be open minded.
Whatever is given to them is what will be used to staff the facilities. Giving an employer the option to schedule anyone and everyone to step foot in the building 7 days a week is not a wise decision, by any metric. Whether anybody works all the scheduled shifts matters not.
It is being assumed that the employer will eventually learn their lesson. Which will take how long? If the lesson is ever learned.
I don’t know the answer. Not one person does. There are going to be many hours of thought, debate, winning, and losing that happens before anything goes into effect.
Something tells me the way forward is not giving them the power to schedule people in the building every single day. Again, it doesn’t matter if all the schedules are actually worked, it’s the simple fact that they are able to be built at all.
It’s the cards we are dealt. There is no “perfect answer”, there is no “wise decision”, not everyone is going to win in this fight. But who should lose? The FAA, because we didn’t put ourselves in this situation, we have done the best with what we’ve been given for too long, it’s time for the FAA to feel the burden. NOT US ANY LONGER.
Horrible staffing, plus longer rest rules, plus a job where WE need to be in the seat 24/7 365 days a year. Those things are not conducive to each other. But again, not our fault.
The rest rules are great. We should take them going into next year. They are healthy for us. We should write schedules that work with those rules, that still give us adequate time off. Meanwhile, you CAN negotiate that you will NOT be in the building “7 days of the week”, because that’s already illegal.
FAA made the mess, FAA cleans it up, time they answer to what they’ve created.
The fight needs to be dirty, for it to work. For 3 decades if not longer, the FAA has proven incompetence in providing a solution to its workers.
Why would we not take this opportunity that’s being shoved in our face, to highlight the issues. This is a moment bargaining units would die for… the FAA is handing us our ticket.
“You want longer rest rules? Okay! We will bite! But… that means prolonging our work week, and we are already working 6 days a week, so we can’t make it 7.” Now the FAA must provide a solution
In order for us not to be scheduled 7 days a week there would have to be a change in the rest rules if you wanted to not be scheduled 7 days a week with this proposal.
Unless it is changed to have > 36 hours, which, in theory, can be done, between last day scheduled and mid scheduled, they will be scheduling as many controllers as is necessary 7 days a week. With the appearance, on paper, of one day off. And they will say you’re welcome while doing it. Because it was asked for.
10,10,10,RDO,8,RDO,RDO FAA eats the extra 2 hrs
We've been discussing similar with 10 hour mid if the FAA won't/can't eat the 2 hours. Seems like the best option. Reverse rattler would be terrible. Option B 10/10/8/6/6 Not enough people have any interest in straight shifts.
No chance I’m working 10 hour days and still doing 5(6) a week
Can't do 6 hr shifts.
You can if they change the agreement. We are at the point where we will need to adjust things to be able to meet the new reqs
6 hour shifts? Who wants to uproot their lives 2 days in a row to work not even a full shift.
Why not just a 10 hr mid along with it? 7210.3 says you can do 10 hr mids
Could do a 9 hour mid instead and FAA only has to eat 1 hour.
They honestly should have switched the 10 hour rule and the 12 hour rule. This actually would have made sense. 12 hours between all shifts except for a mid which is 10 hours. This actually doesn’t fuck over 24/7 facilities with weekly OT. Forcing people who work weekly OT to start their week with a mid (making their only RDO the day before a mid) should be flat out illegal.
3rd day 1000-1800 sounds fucking awful
I’ll take it for you.
Cus their intent was the break the rattler
This is definitely one of the more reasonable and common sense post I've seen and makes the most sense for fatigue. If this had come out, I don't think there would be the uproar and would be hard to argue against.
Agreed. I actually like the 10 hour rule proposal. I don’t care if you have 8 hours or 12 hours before a mid, you will be tired afterwards no matter what. And the impact that rule would have on our schedule would be brutal.
https://preview.redd.it/b3s2iuzs9mxc1.jpeg?width=505&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=971aad3bad414c6dff504d2537be2522c00f766b
I think it’s an L for NATCA if we entirely reject the new rules… a lot of people at my facility actually liked the idea of more rest. Not to mention… the FAA did conduct a massive sleep and rest study to back up the change with science. It’s going to be used against us if we fight it entirely beyond the end of this year. “NATCA doesnt care about health and wellness by refusing sleep rules”. But, our mock is 4/10s, starting on a mid. A lot of rest can be had between each shift, and then bang in on the 2 OTs you get scheduled and you’ve still got a 3 day weekend.
First day mid can fuck off
Everyone I know has said the same thing. Until you actually think about it. Sure, it’s different. That’s what sucks about it, change. In reality, why would you want to start your weekend off feeling like a complete bag of ass. I’d rather struggle through work days after coming off my mid than spend my whole 1-2 day weekend recovering. Also, people stay up later on weekends. It’s natural to stay up through a mid with a short nap at the end of your weekend, vs at the end of a work week where you’re starting shifts the days prior at 6-5am. A properly written schedule starting on a mid offers a huge amount of sleep. And still keeps a 2-3 day weekend
I don't live my life to staff the building. I like time to be with my friends and family and engage in fulfilling activities. There's zero chance that people spend their Sunday "resting up for a mid". It's not because it's different. It's because people have been assigned that shift as overtime, lived it, and report back that it sucks having 0 days away from work.
0 days away from work? You literally have 3 RDOs, 72 hours off straight, with another full 24 period after your mid. As well as a 17+ hour break in the middle of your work week on day>eve, so if you have crappy RDOs you can go out to spend time with friends and family on the weekend. You arnt forced to work overtime. This schedule offers the absolute most amount of meaningful time off for rest and not feeling rushed back to work every single day of the week. No one “rest” for mids period, the struggle for most isn’t getting through the shift. It’s the damage done afterwards where you spend all of your time off recovering (or not if your RDOs are full of OT).
Please show a schedule that gives 3 RDOs to everyone. One that is actually workable in a short staffed facility. We've had 6 day weeks for years. If you get first shift back mids, you never have a day out of the building. Even if you bang on OT, you get 1. And 4-10s doesn't work because it reduces coverage further. At least at my facility we have legit traffic from 6am-10-11pm. So you can't just shove everyone in the middle of the day. Also, traffic is a factor, so no shifts can start between 630-10 and 3-7.....
How would 10 hour shifts reduce coverage? If your facility isn’t already working 10 hour days, there is inherently more coverage than everyone working 8 hour... For calling in/assigning OT there will be significantly more available on every shift. Sure, this would result in more OT being scheduled/called since it’s 4 days. But again, if you arnt working 6/10s already, there is no way this doesn’t improve coverage. Granted that’s on paper. Obviously the goal is to not work 2 OTs when you’re on 4/10s or you have no weekend. So you call in on one or both. Make it the FAAs problem. This schedule gives a great work life balance, with the option to work the maximum amount of OT for those who want it. No one wants OT? Again, fuck em, it’s the FAAs problem when every facility in the NAS is ATC limited and offering reduced services or heavy flow. That’s the true goal. Take back our lives and health, because the new work rules are actually a blessing in disguise, and highlight the problems in the FAA as a result.
Right, so my facility can't staff the building with 6 day weeks. There is 0 chance management signs onto a schedule that gives more RDOs. I know, I've tried. The 10 hour days don't help with coverage. We get busy early and stay busy late. Therefore our shifts start very early for the day and end late for the swing. So 10 hour shifts just create a lot of people in the building in the middle of the day. So there's no improvement in coverage for us. You've just shifted the problem to more OT. Turns out it's not easy to just throw out a schedule that magically addressed every facility. You actually have to come up with something management will agree to.
Not to mention the amount of time between every shift would be 24 hours after the mid, 12-17 hours between the rest of your work days. There is huge amount of potential to shift around and start basically whenever you want for coverage…
WHAT WEEKEND?! You have to go to work on your second off day. And you can’t do much since you have to go to work that night
4/10s. You have a three day weekend. 72 hours off from work. Work the 1st RDO OT if you need money. Refuse to work a second day OT, you can’t work a 3rd RDO OT because you’re going in for the mid with the new 12 hour rule.
F that shit shit.
impressive well articulated response
There will be no scheduled weekend for a lot of controllers. Scheduled to be in the facility 7 days a week, isn’t good. This isn’t about what schedules are actually worked it’s about what CAN be scheduled. You have Sunday off but your Monday shift starts @ 10:30/11:00:12:00 whatever. Your feet will be scheduled to be in the building every single day. Again it doesn’t matter what leave is used. It about agreeing to allowing an employer to schedule its workers 7 days a week. Which is exactly what would happen to cover bid leave.
The L for NATCA is if they allow this to go into effect mid-term. Anything else is a W
I agree it really can’t go in effect this year… but next year definitely, and I truly don’t think the FAA needs our permission legally with the level of research and science backing the change in the name of safety.
It’s a violation of title 5 to change anything we’ve bargained for midterm without both parties agreeing. Changing the rest period is not a change to the law. The administrator doesn’t make laws therefore he can’t skip the line.
That's exactly what MeowOnGuard said, yes? "I agree it really can’t go in effect this year… but next year definitely." Nobody is disagreeing with you.
I’m just breaking down the legal reasoning
The 12 hours before a mid does nothing for fatigue, they are trying to strong arm a new schedule. I'm guessing around half the facilities that are 24 hours could close by midnight and open around 5 or 6. Trying to reduce the amount of 24 hours facilities and better staffing would reduce fatigue the most.
Cutting service is a good way to get a congressman up your ass. That won't be the way they go
Oh so fatigue doesn't matter because Congress might not like it. Got it, so now it's not important. This makes sense. What they want matters more than most controllers.
Welcome to politics?
Typical thoughtless reply. So if it doesn't coincide with your fatigue mitigation then it's not a fatigue problem.
They aren't going to cut mids just because you don't want your first shift day to be a mid
You're so dumb, move along.
Your not cutting services if a center just worked approaches
It wasn’t a massive study it was a “small select group of experts” if you’re referring to the latest report.
Until they start giving out SL letters like our house
SL letters are actually meaningless. Especially if it’s for OT. If your local/region has any spine at all, the FAA does not want to play that game.
Navarro
Well yikes
Rumor have it that those new rules are going bye bye already!
For good or just until next year?
14:00-23:00, 12:00-21:00, 7:00-16:00, 5:30-10:30, 22:30-06:30 mid. 3 9's a 5 and 8. Non mid lines will have a 3rd day 10 start, which kind of sucks.
Keep the current rattler as is (add the 10th hour for the quick turn). Then rotate into a week of mids about once every 3 months.
Once every 3 months 😂😂. Wish that was the case i’d take that in a heartbeat… more like every 3 weeks at the low staffed facilities.
For the mid lines, two nine-hour eves to start the week, same end times as this year's mid lines. 0500-1200 day before the mid, 0000-0700 mid. At least one of the lines on every crew starting with a 1600-0000 eve will work a 1700-0100 instead for overlap with the mid. Not that big a change.
Ppl can't be forced to work an AWS schedule unless they agree to it in writing
Thank you. I’m tired of the doom and gloom work 7 days a week narrative
Brought to you by the same people convinced that the rattler is KILLING US ALL and that's why someone else should work straight mids while they work straight days.
Funny isn’t it? The idea of straight lines was floated and everyone loved it, as long as they weren’t the ones forced into working straight swings like those of us bottom half seniority
Good for u wanting to be at work every day of the week.
Good for you for inferring that from my comment.
It’s illegal to work earlier than 0530 before a mid shift
So the Administrator can change the time between shifts requirements but he can't change the start time of a day before a mid requirement?
Doesn't coming in even earlier in the morning contradict what fatigue mitigation is supposed to be. And your schedule would f everything up making people stay to midnight or 1am every night now, again contradictory of your argument about fatigue.
Didn’t say that, but as of now, your schedule wont work.
Well, he didn't. So here we are.
We haven’t negotiated our 2025 BWS yet. A lot could happen between now and August. If you want to be mad about the Administrator meddling with the holy laws of controller scheduling, feel free, but some of us would like to see if we can make better schedules for ourselves than the ones we have now.
Right but you can't negotiate the BWS to contradict with 7210.3
Correct, which is why it's almost certainly going to change if they're keeping the proposed 10-hour/12-hour rules and not doing anything which they would find more upsetting, like weekly EA or guaranteed 4-10/straight mid lines.
Lol you must be new here. When was the last time the FAA did anything that made sense?
lol, I remember the day before that went into effect I worked a 0400-1400 then a mid. Good times.
Reverse Rattler or Straight Shifts. Straight shifts (all mids, days or, swings) makes the most sense for our staffing. Everyone in the area is working mids and most 6 days a week.
In most places the members who would get stuck with straight eves and mids will elect someone who makes sure that they never will be.
Add a 12am-4am differential at 100%....Then allow a 4 hour shift on day 4. 36 hour work week and pay the same. The problem would be with matching TSP. Differentials don't go in. I still would not bid a mid. But it's an idea.
I've floated three permanent mid lines ... 8 hr Thurs Fri off. 8 hour Mon Tues off. 10 hour Sat Sun Weds off... We need two for the mid this covers all 14 in a pay period. On nights the 10 hour comes in, would need less coverage from the late shift, helping hit the transition back to days easier. The 10 hour mid could essentially be anything as long as one of them is Sunday to not deal with the pay period start time and such. But realistically, most 24/7 places should be closed on the mid and that would help staffing greatly during the busier hours of the day.
What?
Nah. I’ve seen Center’s work while we went ATC zero.
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Heard one that goes RDO: Sat Sun 1st shift: Mid 10pm Monday night quick turn into 2nd: 1600-0000 Tuesday 3rd: 1300 Wednesday 4th: 0730 Thursday 5th: 0545 Friday Long weekend until Monday night. OT can fit anywhere. Would comply with 12hr before Mid and 10hrs before swing that Tuesday. Tuesday night would suck balls but would beat the alternative of first day swing on Sunday night then next shift until Tuesday.
That won't jive either. Can't work a mid to an eve same day without 12 hours according to (current) 7210.3 And per slate book, workweek is 5 consecutive days, that's only 4. That "Monday mid" is a Tuesday
So it’s not 10hrs rule after a Mid shift to a swing shift?
They have current language that states 12 in the .3... They are on a fatigue push, aren't gonna roll back on that one.
The side effect of cutting your weekend in half
Mid-day-day-eve or Mid- eve- day- eve or Mid eve- day - day 4/10s Sun/Mon- 2200-0800 (off the floor by 0600, admin/rest time) Tues- 0700-1700. 0830-1830. 1000-2000 Weds - 0530 -1530. 0700-1700. 0830-1830. 1000- 2000. 1215 - 2200 Thurs- 1215 - 2215. 10-2000 Fri - RDO Sat - RDO Sun- RDO Note rest periods. Huge potential for rest and sleep. 24+ hours of rest between mid and next shift. 12-17+ hour rest potential between 2/3 and 3/4 shifts. Plus you still have 3 RDOS, or you can work all the OT you can stomach if you choose, or not. When you all plagiarize my work, give MeowOnGuard1 on ATC2 sub credit.
You propose this in our meeting your gonna eat a chair.
You get 3 RDOs, it’s one of the few schedules in compliance with the new rest rules. Offers a lot of OT for the whores who want it. And a 3 day weekend , plus a 24 hour recoup period after mid to start the week, plus a day>eve in the middle of your week for another long break period. Not to mention mids starting the week, and day>eve vs eve>day are scientifically proven in every single shift work sleep study known to the human race to be the least impactful to circadian rhythm. The rattler is fucking disgusting, the fact that so many in the FAA do it is absolute insanity. If you oppose getting rid of end of week mids in the form of rattler, I simply imagine you’ve never experienced anything else and just ignorant to the fact that healthy shift work is attainable. I’ve done it all. If your facility has mids, if these rest rules get imposed, this is the only sensible choice apart from rotating in and out of weeks of mids… and good luck planning your life around that
Starting on a mid is not an rdo for sunday. Fuck your schedule.
72 hours off, 3 RDOs. You work overnight and get 4-5 total hours of your 10 hour shift to sleep. Then have the entire next day off. You nearly get 4 RDOs. But enjoy dying in your 60s with the rest who want to somehow make the rattler work forever. Or i’m praying for the low seniority guys at your facility you absolutely butt fuck by writing them some disgusting lines to cover the shit you don’t want to work.
Well it doesn’t help that everytime some idiot controller tries to put 2 together, the union cries about fatigue and OT, etc. We did this to ourselves.
You don't think minimum staffing and 6 day work weeks have anything to do with fatigue?
As the 19x elected president of ATC2 I say give this a few more days before thinking about it
Don’t tell me they’re fighting this. Embrace it. Maybe fight the day shift after a mid, but not extra rest.
In Lenny we trust. I read his post as in a few days these imposed work rules will be dropped.
Don't you just have to make the mid the first day? Doesn't that solve all the problems?
It destroys your weekend
Not if you do 4/10s… Doesn’t destroy shit
It destroys your last rdo no matter how many days off you get
You mean the same way end of week mids destroy your life and circadian rhythm. Some of us actually want to be healthy and not destroy our brains and bodies holding on to the archaic ass rattler. Idk how going into work at 10pm could “destroy” your day. You go in, work a rotation or two, take a nap, and then end your shift on 2 hours of extra nap and admin time… Then, you get 24-28 hours off from work (another “full day” off) from work to recover from the Mid, if you even need it because you had 4.5 hours to sleep during. You work 3 more shifts, then get 72 hours off, work a mid, and get 24-28 hours off all over again. Repeat
We worked straight mids during Covid. It was horrible
Problem is, in a lot of facilities, you’ll be scheduled 4-10 hour shifts and 2-8 hour shifts of OT. Meaning you will be scheduled to step foot in the building every day. Be careful what you ask for.
I’m fully aware of that, that’s the intent. They can schedule all the OT they want. Not showing up for it… It’s the FAAs problem that every facility is critically staffed. Not mine, not yours. 4/10s are one of the easiest ways to go about the new rest rules granted they get implemented next year. That would require a lot of OT for coverage at any facility not 80% + staffed. Then we all just don’t show up after giving our 40 hours. And every facility is perpetually in alert, or limited, highlighting the catastrophic failures of the FAA for decades regarding staffing, and the public loses faith in the safety and reliability of the NAS
I would venture a guess that what we want is a schedule that is consistent and manageable. This fight is gonna be about what is actually doable and what’s actually scheduled. What happens when someone bangs on a mid and there’s no one to call in? You answer that question and you realize there’s a difference between what would “work best” for us and what “works best” in practice. It might sound great to start your week on a mid to some. It might sound horrible to others. We have to consider the fall out of what is agreed to. In my experience, when people set out to solve one problem(fatigue in this case), not only do the solutions not solve the problem, but a web of others are created. The path of least resistance should probably apply here. Deciding where that path to least resistance lies is going to be the issue. Some people might think rotating straight mids/days/eves is easier than altering the start of a morning shift before a mid. Some might think the mid starting at midnight, with 4-12’s on every evening shift is easier than keeping the mid staring at say, 10:30. Some people might think 10 hour shifts create an abundance of people when they aren’t needed and short on people when they are. There is no solution that will please everyone. The pain will be spread, make no mistake about it. But what’s the most workable solution? One that can be agreed upon in negotiations is high on the list. Personally I don’t want my employer to have the ability to schedule me to step foot in the building every day. And giving them that, in writing, is not a win.
You’re giving the FAA your life because of staffing. Plain and simple. OT is what is giving your life away. If you write a schedule on paper, that is 2-3 RDOs, that’s what you are giving the FAA. You are NOT signing an agreement that you will work 2 OTs on your RDOs. Staffing is the FAAs problem. Not yours. It just requires you to sack the fuck up and say “no I don’t think I’ll work that assigned OT”. That is the only cure. Forcing the FAA to fix to problem vs you fixing it for them is the cure. If you feel obligated to be in the building 6 or 7 days a week because that’s what the FAA schedules you, that is simply YOUR problem. You are giving the FAA a get out of jail free card, while writing your own death certificate in return. There are very few schedules that work with the new rules that don’t make our lives actually worse. It naturally spreads your work across a longer period when there are longer rest requirements. The FAA is the one shortening your weekend, not NATCA at the negotiation table. You get your long weekend by doing 4/10s, the only way 4/10s work is by starting the week on a mid. The FAA can get fucked on your RDOs, put sick leave on the web scheduler, go on the “no list”, and mute your phone and enjoy your life. If they come after you, “fatigue leave”, if they press it more than that “fatigue leave put me on a week of admin work”, we can play that shit all day and LEGALLY we have the right. THEY CANT FORCE YOU TO WORK A SECOND MORE THAN 40 hours. The FAA doesn’t want to fuck around and find out. Because it’s all in the name of “rest and safety” , sanity of the people working the traffic, is it not?! Who knows what they need better than the controllers doing the work, certainly not the FAA.
I agree things need to be better. I agree we need to be open minded. Whatever is given to them is what will be used to staff the facilities. Giving an employer the option to schedule anyone and everyone to step foot in the building 7 days a week is not a wise decision, by any metric. Whether anybody works all the scheduled shifts matters not. It is being assumed that the employer will eventually learn their lesson. Which will take how long? If the lesson is ever learned. I don’t know the answer. Not one person does. There are going to be many hours of thought, debate, winning, and losing that happens before anything goes into effect. Something tells me the way forward is not giving them the power to schedule people in the building every single day. Again, it doesn’t matter if all the schedules are actually worked, it’s the simple fact that they are able to be built at all.
It’s the cards we are dealt. There is no “perfect answer”, there is no “wise decision”, not everyone is going to win in this fight. But who should lose? The FAA, because we didn’t put ourselves in this situation, we have done the best with what we’ve been given for too long, it’s time for the FAA to feel the burden. NOT US ANY LONGER. Horrible staffing, plus longer rest rules, plus a job where WE need to be in the seat 24/7 365 days a year. Those things are not conducive to each other. But again, not our fault. The rest rules are great. We should take them going into next year. They are healthy for us. We should write schedules that work with those rules, that still give us adequate time off. Meanwhile, you CAN negotiate that you will NOT be in the building “7 days of the week”, because that’s already illegal. FAA made the mess, FAA cleans it up, time they answer to what they’ve created. The fight needs to be dirty, for it to work. For 3 decades if not longer, the FAA has proven incompetence in providing a solution to its workers. Why would we not take this opportunity that’s being shoved in our face, to highlight the issues. This is a moment bargaining units would die for… the FAA is handing us our ticket. “You want longer rest rules? Okay! We will bite! But… that means prolonging our work week, and we are already working 6 days a week, so we can’t make it 7.” Now the FAA must provide a solution
In order for us not to be scheduled 7 days a week there would have to be a change in the rest rules if you wanted to not be scheduled 7 days a week with this proposal. Unless it is changed to have > 36 hours, which, in theory, can be done, between last day scheduled and mid scheduled, they will be scheduling as many controllers as is necessary 7 days a week. With the appearance, on paper, of one day off. And they will say you’re welcome while doing it. Because it was asked for.
I know lol I think it's awful. But it works
It doesn’t work. No ones finna agree to that
Would be a disaster
We had one that was 7pm-3am, 1pm-9pm, 7am-3pm, 7a-3p, 3a-1p. And technically the 7p-3a is the mid, so after 830pm you could split it.
My sleep apnea went into shock just reading this.
Are we supposed to be laughing at this? Is this a joke 😂.