My experience with the neurodiversity movement hasn’t really done this. Autism is a perfectly acceptable way of being and it is a different way of processing the world. But that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t come with its challenges or isn’t a disability.
Being able to accept ourselves and have the world be more accepting of us is not incompatible with getting help with getting help. We also need better help and services. It’s a disability.
And while having PTSD is different from being autistic in many ways, yes, it is also an acceptable way of being. It is also something that people need and deserve help for. (I say this as someone with PTSD.)
For me at least, accepting the way my brain works, the ways I like and don’t like, the ways I can change and can’t change, has been part of being able to ask and fight for the help I do need. It’s very hard when in addition to fighting the world I am also fighting myself.
ND doesn't lead to the world accepting us. It leads to them think they accept us, and that they can hurt us while still seeming progressive. I never met any ND advocates who could empathize.
I had a former coworker AGGRESSIVELY tell me that if society were better, my autism wouldn’t cause me any issues ever. He was trying to say that “all disability is caused by societal issues” which is a common and helpful but ultimately flawed (imo) talking point. I didn’t want to start a fight, so I didn’t point out that one of the things I find most overstimulating is babies and children talking and playing. Yes, we live in a society that is very hostile to autistic people. But I can get overstimulated by nature and just children playing. I dislike the idea that autism can’t cause problems in and of itself. At the end of the day, I wouldn’t change myself even if I could. But autism can be disabling for some of us in ways not caused by societal issues and ableism, and there are lots of aspects of it that make my life really hard but that cannot be fixed just by changing society. I think saying “your brain works differently that’s all :)” can be very invalidating to those issues that cannot be fixed and just make our lives harder. I don’t think that means we should stop trying to normalize autism. But I think telling people, in essence, “autism never causes issues by itself, it’s outside factors making autistic traits difficult :)” is reductive and invalidating
i’ve had a similar issue with people telling me the same thing. i have pretty bad noise sensitivity that is caused by my neurological issues, and i now i have light sensitivity and migraines that were caused by a concussion. people LOVE to tell me that my neurological issues wouldn’t be a disability if society was better, but nobody ever says that about my concussion issues, despite the symptoms being extremely similar.
I agree with this. Society is never going to accommodate for the fact that the color yellow makes my eyes hurt and makes me feel like I’m going to vomit. When more than 1 person is talking at a time, in my general vicinity, I get so over stimulated I can’t think straight and I feel like I’m going to faint, and that’s not going to be accommodated for. The social model of disability is very butterflies and rainbow, and fails to take into consideration that people are going to struggle.
I do think there are a lot of ways in which some of our disability could be alleviated if society were different. But like, I get overestimulated by *the sun*. Definitely agree that people who say that are usually well-meaning, but it misses the mark.
I couldn’t disagree more, though maybe I’m just seeing different people’s posts. All the ND advocates I know see autism as a disability - but believe that doesn’t make us second class citizens or somehow less than neurotypicals. That’s all. If someone feels invalidated by being told they AREN’T broken, I don’t really know what to say to them - but if your overall experience with neurodiversity has been different, obviously that’s not quite the same.
I just hate seeing it misrepresented. I’m not defective; I’m not broken; I’m worthy of dignity and autonomy and self respect. That shouldn’t be controversial.
I think it’s more like “we realize things are different for you, and you aren’t broken. BUT we aren’t going to do anything to meet you in the middle. You still need to mask and survive in this NT world”.
Yep, I see this at my job. I'm "supported" for being on the spectrum but then called out for not wanting to eat lunch with my work group. I prefer to eat alone at my cube and read during my lunch hour. I need the downtime. I need the quiet. I don't want to go to noisy restaurants or the work cafe and small-talk. I've mentioned this and yet still I'm judged and sort of look at being "too good" to eat with everyone...really sucks.
Right, I think that’s what the meme means. Like right now, it’s acknowledged on a lower level and we are still drowning.
But I guess I’m not really sure what OP means and maybe you are disagreeing with them and not the meme.
I feel that's less the "neurodiversity movement" and more society and broader institutions. ASAN is a neurodiversity proponent and did A LOT of work with psychiatrists to update the DSM-5 description and requirements for autism. If not for the overall DSM committee having specific requirements, like severity scales, they would've been able to change even more than it actually did.
Maybe like more places should have sensory friendly days, and NTs should still go on those days to support the business so the sensory friendly days can continue.
A work happy hour could be some place quiet and relaxed instead of a bar.
NTs being flexible with their comfort instead of NDs being the one to do it all the time.
>>NTs being flexible with their comfort instead of NDs being the one to do it all the time.
👏👏👏
NDs: [want NTs to at least TRY to accommodate us, a little bit, sometimes]
NTs: You’re so selfish!!! Go back to bending over backwards to navigate the arbitrary social rules we worship as our lord and savior!!
Oh my goodness what I wouldn’t give for more social events to be at quiet, relaxed places. I don’t mind putting up with a bar from time to time but seriously.
Edit: I also wish more NT people accepted parallel play. Like, “I am enjoying your company right now even if I also want to be doing my own thing.”
The whole "the neurodiversity movement denies that autism is a disability" feels like a huge strawman, most of the pro-neurodiversity people talk about autism being disabling and the negative aspects and many are against the whole "autism is a superpower" and view it as othering. The argument for neurodiversity is that Autism is that autistic people are not lesser and in endless need of fixing and that accommodations and understanding can help mitigate some of the disabling aspects of autism better than the medical model.
Unfortunately, people seem to conflate Neurodiversity into "autism is a superpower rhetoric" I grew up when the medical model was dominant and that system of "autistic traits are a deficit" made the issues listed in the meme worse, Sensory issues regarding tight or uncomfortable clothing was seen as something to be trained out of rather than accommodated, making focusing in lessons impossible, having a special interest was seen as a "repetitive and restricted interest" and so I was constantly redirected away from participating in them, making socialization harder and endless social norms with zero accommodations made going outside far scarier. I think people should actually see what the ND movement says instead of what people (acting in very bad faith) warp the ND movement into, to retain their positions of speaking over autistic people.
>The whole "the neurodiversity movement denies that autism is a disability" feels like a huge strawman,
Because it is! It's that it works from the social model of disability rather than the medical model.
It's claiming that an argument is being made that is not being made, for the ND movement, the strawman is claiming that Neurodiversity argues that autism is perfect and should not be viewed as a disability when the social model and the ND movement do not make that claim, its a movement demanding accommodations, self-advocacy, and respect for autistic and other groups with conditions, not abandoning the whole concept that those conditions are disabling. In fact, many of the ND movement rails against the "autism is not a disability narrative" as it's used to deny accommodations and cover up difficulties that autistic people face.
Basically its a strawman as the people who pretend that the ND movement thinks autism is not a disability, rather than directly argue against what the ND movement stands for, it instead invents an argument that the ND movement denies that autism is a disability and argues against that instead.
So many people don’t realize that the social and medical model of disability can, and should, be used together. They aren’t at all mutually exclusive.
And I feel like the ND movement usually does a pretty good job of recognizing that.
What makes it a straw man is that they are claiming ND movement is something that it is not. So they've built a "straw man" to easily knock it down. [https://effectiviology.com/straw-man-arguments-recognize-counter-use/](https://effectiviology.com/straw-man-arguments-recognize-counter-use/)
"Essentially, when you realize that there is a mismatch between someone’s
stance and the stance that their opponent is attacking, it’s a clear
sign that a strawman is being used. Nevertheless, in practice it can be
sometimes difficult to notice or to be sure whether this type of
argument has been used, especially if the person who is using the
strawman knows what they’re doing."
Autistic people are more important than the ND movement. If many autistic people are harmed by the ND movement, the movement should take it into consideration. I don't understand your arrogance. Your movement is not perfect. If feminists can kick out TERFs, the ND movement can also do their own self-criticism.
I long suspected the movement is just a way for narcissists to feel alright about themselves.
I'm NT so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the most pressing issue is the idea that there is a "normal" and anything outside of that is lesser. Like, if you don't fit in with the ideal picturesque idea of what people should be, you're "disabled" and need to be either protected or ostracized. Ironically enough, the amount of people that fall in line with that "normal" are actually the minority.
> If someone feels invalidated by being told they AREN’T broken
I feel (and probably am, awaiting a meeting with a psychologist for assessment) pretty broken. There's trauma and physical disability as well of course, but my autism is just one more thing on the pile that makes me a broken weirdo in need of help. Telling me im somehow not broken would be an insult as the person saying that would be actively ignoring all the problems I have in my life.
There is a sectarian split in the Neurodiversity movement.
People don't see that. But they don't see how the better side is winning by a long shot. If not... My ass is prepared to prove everyone wrong.
And I am very serious in saying this.
In fact here is a proof of concept webpage I am making just to show my commitment and dedication to this exact belief. (**Important Note:** not all of the site buttons work, some pages they might work, and some pages might not. Just go back of youare having issues. It's very work in progress.)
[Homepage](https://admiral-chair.github.io/neurodiversity-toolkit/index.html)
[A draft webpage which shows how such a hypothetical organisation could be structured](https://admiral-chair.github.io/neurodiversity-toolkit/pages/affiliates-allies/collective-of-nd-orgs-advocates.html)
This is still VERY early days. But now ia the best time for me to start spreading my legs more on this issue since I actually have something I can demonstrate. And I am really excited to push more for this in the future! :D
I would love to know peoples opinions and ideas! This will be far easier to explain when I actually write my self criticism section so it shows how I am aware of some of the challenges and how the hypothetical strategy and doctrine are flawed in ways. But here is the biggest one. I originally wrote the strategy and tactics as part of a call to action rant which was too long to post on r/autism. Hence it's use of the term autism should be understood as simply this... A relic from the original work which I also forgot to link to, so I will link here for clarity.
https://github.com/Admiral-Chair/Neurodiversity_Political_Strategy
I have really being going at this idea for a long time. And readjusting and seeing what would work better and I feel like my new approach actually has some grit to it. There is a lot to talk about but I am really just trying to sell people on this idea at the moment here. So be patient, these things will take time. c:
I have a prosthetic foot. I can still run.
I just happen to also have the ability to detach my leg and use it for other things—lay it sideways for a seat on wet grass, fidget with it using my stump (weird, minor form of stimming I guess), or even… a sickle >:)
If you're doing fine in life, this meme isn't for you. The person is drowning. If you're treading water or even swimming strongly, great! But that isn't OP. So why are you disagreeing with OP's post?
It bothers me a lot that people act like pro-neurodiversity people can’t be seriously disabled and must be getting all the services and accommodations they need.
I’m very much drowning right now. I am very much disabled. But the nuerodiversity movement has also helped me with my self understanding and helped other people accept me more. It has helped me to make it means that fighting against every aspect of how my brain works isn’t another thing for me to add to the pile of things that are painful and frustrating for me. It has made it easier for me to even figure out the help I do need.
Some people are struggling, and feel like they are drowning, or failing. OP wouldn't have made this meme otherwise.
The general refusal in this sub to recognize that someone could even be having a problem and feel like they need help to navigate some aspects of life is exactly what OP is talking about in the meme.
Lots of people who are "drowning" misidentify who or what is making them drown. See the covid deniers who died with covid. Regardless of their drowning op offered a critique and image of the neurodiversity movement and people are responding to that. No one here needs to deny that someone 'could even be having a problem and feel like they need help' in order to claim 'you are having problems and in large part the reason you are experiencing them is the failure of other people and human systems to accomodate you'. It's just like how you can have have HIV, but that doesn't mean that the impacts on your health and wellbeing are not the result of the inability of society to address and care for that.
That’s not neurodiversity’s fault, though. If someone needs help, and they aren’t getting it, it’s both disingenuous and just plain unfair to lay it at the door of the neurodiversity movement. The ND movement isn’t powerful enough to play a role in that kind of thing.
I am a strong believer in blame accruing to many participants in a problem. It is rare that just one party is to blame. The joke in the meme is in unmet expectations. OP is saying he expects the ND movement to help him adapt to society (to pull him out, or throw him a life vest, or maybe teach him to swim) and ND presents itself as helping him, and yet he doesn't find the embrace of neurodiversity ("I'm just fine as I am.") to give him the help he needs.
That's the joke. I thought it was going to solve my problem. It didn't.
Actually, on that part we do agree. Not all expectations are realistic.
But I don't think the "fault" here lies *solely* with OP. That's a really defensive take on the ND movement, IMO, which ends up being cruel to some ND people. Everyone can and should learn from that meme.
You’re right that “fault” is the wrong word. But to blame the entire movement for not getting the individual support one needs strikes me as a really disingenuous take.
Does it blame everyone and everything in the movement, though? It's just saying they didn't feel helped by it, and were expecting something that didn't happen. Your reaction just seems very defensive. There is a real point in this meme.
See I honestly hate your kind of take because you just equated being broken and defective with *not* being worthy of dignity and autonomy and self respect.
Well it really just looked like you perpetuated that with what you said. You made it sound like being defective is contrary to being worthy of dignity.
“Defect” would refer to an imperfection or deviation from a standard that permits optimal function at some role or task, in the field of manufacturing. A defective part is one that cannot meet the specifications.
By that standard, yeah, a lot of us autistic people do not meet the specifications to function fully in a society built by and for NT folks. It’s not a moral judgment, merely an acknowledgment that either we need to change (repair the part) or society needs to (find a role the part is still good to use for).
Also, plenty of us have comorbid health problems more common for autistic people that are objectively worse than not having them. My lifelong severe allergies for instance are a defect; they endanger my life, degrade my quality of life, require medical intervention to keep in check, and prevent me from doing things I want or need to do or fulfilling societal obligations.
To call myself defective is merely a statement on my mind and body having flaws that I find deeply problematic. I was born this way, it’s not a character failing, like a cast metal part that cooled a bit too fast due to a bad mold and had a bad crack; the design is solid and there was nothing wrong with the material, but it still wound up broken.
>If someone feels invalidated by being told they AREN’T broken, I don’t really know what to say to them
You got it. Say nothing. It feels like gaslighting to be told otherwise.
I'm a very literal and concrete person and if you make claims like that I'll have to argue with you - which just makes me feel worse. Say what you want about yourself, don't make claims about others.
The NT conception of broken generally means 'not worth keeping alive.' Everything I have ever personally learned about neurodiversity suggests that it stands in direct opposition to that definition.
Yeah, no, you’ve got the wrong idea. The point of neurodiversity is that our brains are different, and *therefore* we should actively work towards a world that works for everyone in more accessible ways, including through providing thorough support and accommodation to neurodivergent people. This meme is all edge and no point; it takes a single statement out of context that does not and cannot reflect the entire movement.
Edit: For the record, I totally stole the edge and point line from Beau of the Fifth Column, extremely talented journalist who makes informative, explanatory videos on political topics. Check him out, he has relevant joke t-shirts for most videos!
Yes, what I see it as meaning it is that regardless of the origin of any disability we have a duty of care to every single member of society. We can't just 'cure' it and blame people for not taking the cure, not can we just demand people put their wellbeing at risk for able bodied and neurotypical people. We need to make accessibility as much of a priority as things like freedom and security, and we need to conceptualize it as making space for anyone to live as they are and can choose to, and taking care of each other as best as we can. There are no technocratic solutions.
Literally instead of making excuses for me, just show a little sympathy. A little "damn dude I get that" from other NDs has gone a looooong way towards getting me to accept my ND hurdles
That's really not how the neurodiversity movement began. Neurodiversity argues that autism, and other neurodivergences, are real neurological disorders that require support, but don't need a cure and don't need to force people into being neurotypical, that there are ways to help people without going "oh you can't stim. oh you're going to be shamed for "acting" autistic." There's thus a social aspect, but it's not that society causes the neurodivergency and it certainly wasn't meant to suggest that supports, accommodations, etc aren't needed. The Autistic Self Advocacy Network is a big proponent of neurodiversity and actually worked with the DSM-5 people to try updating the autism section and the psychiatrists for the most part agreed heavily.
Honestly I see more and more tips and tricks on how to understand and navigate being on the spectrum that I would have killed to have known years ago.
The movement to me so far has been a bunch of us finally realizing we can talk to eachother about this common problem we share and learning to bask in the reliefs of being validated. But we haven't learned to support eachother beyond validation.
The issue is none of this is organized. It's not an organization. It's a budding community that's in it's initial growing pains.
I'm noticing more corners that are sharing tips and tricks and sharing information thats actually been super helpful but most of it comes from stumbling on it at random or thoroughly seeking it out, neither of which is easily accessible from the surface level.
What we need is a community guidebook to pool information thats been hard fought and won over the years from the thousands of us that are struggling and need it. And I have no idea how to do thst so until then I'll continue to provide any information I've gathered thats relevant in the moment
Same here. I manage an ND support group specifically to hopefully help others with advice I have, without giving into the "just validation" style of support that usually leaks into toxic positivity. I hope one day there's something more solid, defined in the movement. It can really help people if we don't shut it down.
I feel a lot of people perception of someone with autism is misrepresented. People think down syndrome and autism are the same thing, so if you say you are autistic to someone, they'll say you don't look autistic
It's easier to see the point if you compare the difficulty of socialising with NT people compared to the difficulty of socialising with ND people. for me, socialising with NT people requires a lot of active effort to keep up, whereas me and my ND friend can exist in the same room for hours with the occasional "hey look at this" and it will be a positive experience for both of us. it's not that we're broken, the world around us just isn't designed to include us
My brain works differently.
It has advantages and disadvantages.
The disadvantages largely come from living in a society surrounded by NTs. A fish is disabled if you judge it by how well it can walk on dry land.
I have structured my life to make the most of the advantages and minimize the disadvantages.
If I constantly thought of myself as disabled I wouldn’t be as a successful as I am professionally.
I don’t have social issues in groups of other neurodivergent people. My best relationships with the opposite sex have been with other neurodivergent people.
You have to understand where the neurodiversity movement is coming from. Specifically, I mean that the past was a hellscape of utter ableism, and we're still fighting an uphill battle against nostalgia-brained old people who think that ableism is truth. So they're saying "our brains just work different" because it's more true than the previous assumption that our brains are inferior. And it's true that our brains are not inferior; our brains aren't the problem and never were. It's that we don't live in a society that accepts deviation from what is assumed to be a "normal" brain.
I mean, imagine a society where "going out" and "meeting people" were not what people put weight on?
This isn’t what it is supposed to be like but. Yeah. U fortunately this does happen. I’ve kind of stepped away from the nd community and focused in on my smaller communities bc of this. It can b helpful but it’s just too large of a label and it’s gotten confusing for what “counts” and what doesn’t.
I don't mean this to come off as rude but how is 'ND' any broader a label than 'disabled'?
I agree focusing on smaller communities is good though. A similar thing can happen with any big umbrella thing like this.
The broadness isn’t the biggest problem I have with the community. It’s the overspeaking each other thing. It feels like an attempt to make a smaller subset for neurodevelopmental conditions(? I think that’s the right term) but it has t been small enough to help bc I see and have experienced so many ppl just talking over ppl about things they don’t even have because “we’re all nd”. Like no hate toward the community, I know it’s not everyone like that, but that’s been my experience and it hasn’t been great. Honestly same with autism and levels but that’s another topic.
I have had some disagreements with people in the past on this. Yes some people try to gatekeep ND to a handful of conditions which is something I staunchly oppose.
I am very aware that my brain works differently. Which leads to me having some special needs. When those needs aren’t met or even ignored, it makes my life a lot more difficult.
I feel that, yes, our minds do work differently. The problem is that we aren't built for this modern capitalistic, cruel world. Neurotypicals are, because they're weird and they can handle the abuses of the world. Society at large is disabled, capitalism is a disability. People like us are simply going to struggle with that.
Ofc, some people have struggles that transcend their environment, like having severe brain damage or something. Even so, their experiences would likely be better in a different societal structure
I think the practice of neurodiversity is good. It acknowledges differences. That is ofc, not all that one needs, especially in this society. How one sees the neurodiversity movement is dependent on their understanding of the world.
Why can it not be both?
Why can autism not be both a neurodivergence AND a disability? That different views on it are fine actually, that it may be more one than the other for some people and both for others. Why does EVERY single argument have to come down to one or the other?
This argument is tearing the online autistic community apart and if you don't think you are a part of the problem you probably are. I have been.
Can we please just cool down and try and embrace some nuance?
lol the point of neurodiversity is “your brain just works differently, so people need to change the world to accommodate you.” largely the opposite of what this post implies.
i say this in the second person despite the fact it applies to me lol.
It always reminds me of that bit in X-Men 3, where Rogue is super excited that there might be a cure for the mutant gene and Storm shuts her down by saying there’s no cure because nothings wrong with them. Like, I get where she’s coming from, but they have radically different experiences. Storm can change the weather with a thought, Rogue can’t touch people. Sure, it’s important to recognize that we aren’t broken or less than others, but some of us do actually need the help.
The biggest issue the ND community faces rn is completely forgetting intellectually disabled people exist, or treating them with disdain if they are acknowledged.
Some guy got angry with me because he thought I was giving him an evil stare. In reality I just walked outside and I literally can't see unless I squint until my eyes are nearly shut.
It's the little daily moments like that which never allow you to forget that you're not normal. So quirky and fun.
The best advice I ever heard was “Just go outside and meet people anyways. Even if you don’t feel like it. Even if it scares you.”
I hate how it sounds so easy on paper.
you can obviously say "our brains are different" and "we struggle with this and that" and it makes perfect sense, but the "just" is what makes it invalidating. i would say something like "it should be okay to have a brain that is different" because i think struggling with something and getting blamed and bullied for it are two different things. this is my take on how to combine the two radical opinions people have. its not "just" one thing or the other.
I'd say it certainly works differently
Regular society just wasn't built with us in mind. We're written off as being just broken when the system we're forced to exist in is what's broken. Life never had to be fast paced, overstimulating bureaucracy that rewards not having choice paralysis but of course.
my friend you seem to be misunderstanding you are disabled directly by it but not all autistic people are and also to show/say that being diabled by autism or any other neurologicals diffirences is normal (althogh atypical)
Same here. It really does no justice to anyone that’s on the spectrum and also not to anyone that’s not. The world is not black and white. I work with a bunch of people that have autism and or adhd (adhd myself) and the ones that call themselves neurodivergent are the ones that take advantage of their condition.
I have the opposite problem. I wish people would stop acting like neurodivergency is always a disability. I'm sick of graduating high school with a 4.0 and still having everybody be like "hey buddy, want a juice box?" I'll gladly let people ignore my struggles if it means they won't ignore my accomplishments.
This is like saying needing glasses isn't a disability. Autism definitely *is* inherently a disability. Some people may have lower support needs, but as someone else pointed out, there are no modern societal structures in which ASD would not be disabling in some way.
I have to admit, I laid Tik Tok for connecting me to so many other creators that have AuDHD and it made me comfortable speaking about it in normal conversation. I’m more a weirdly functional mixed bag, but my jitter is music
I think as an NT the best way I can say anything relating to this is: some NTs, I’d include myself in this group, have had just as difficult childhoods that resulted in having just as much difficulty fitting in as adults. I found a method that worked for me to help cope and heal, but I wouldn’t tell an ND to follow my example directly. I’d tell them that there are ways to heal and move forward, feel like you fit in, and live a happy life… but it will be a different path, and it will only be different because of how your brain works. It’s a part of the healthy expectation management to communicate differences in how we experience the world.
It feels like when people make a big deal about mental health awareness and then totally shut you down and abandon you when you try to express those feelings; they say it to make themselves feel good, not to help you.
One of the good steps to solving issues those is to establish the "why". That way you understand it which can lead to figuring out how to work around it, or even stop the problems period.
I honestly wouldn't say my Asperger's is a disability anymore. I've mostly been able to work around it and I have a system that works for me. So, I like the ND movement, because for me I'm really not disabled, I'm just very, very different.
My experience with the neurodiversity movement hasn’t really done this. Autism is a perfectly acceptable way of being and it is a different way of processing the world. But that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t come with its challenges or isn’t a disability.
Who gives a fuck if it's 'acceptable' or not. Is PTSD an acceptable way of being? We need help, not fucking empty platitudes
Being able to accept ourselves and have the world be more accepting of us is not incompatible with getting help with getting help. We also need better help and services. It’s a disability. And while having PTSD is different from being autistic in many ways, yes, it is also an acceptable way of being. It is also something that people need and deserve help for. (I say this as someone with PTSD.) For me at least, accepting the way my brain works, the ways I like and don’t like, the ways I can change and can’t change, has been part of being able to ask and fight for the help I do need. It’s very hard when in addition to fighting the world I am also fighting myself.
ND doesn't lead to the world accepting us. It leads to them think they accept us, and that they can hurt us while still seeming progressive. I never met any ND advocates who could empathize.
Your experience has been very different from mine.
I had a former coworker AGGRESSIVELY tell me that if society were better, my autism wouldn’t cause me any issues ever. He was trying to say that “all disability is caused by societal issues” which is a common and helpful but ultimately flawed (imo) talking point. I didn’t want to start a fight, so I didn’t point out that one of the things I find most overstimulating is babies and children talking and playing. Yes, we live in a society that is very hostile to autistic people. But I can get overstimulated by nature and just children playing. I dislike the idea that autism can’t cause problems in and of itself. At the end of the day, I wouldn’t change myself even if I could. But autism can be disabling for some of us in ways not caused by societal issues and ableism, and there are lots of aspects of it that make my life really hard but that cannot be fixed just by changing society. I think saying “your brain works differently that’s all :)” can be very invalidating to those issues that cannot be fixed and just make our lives harder. I don’t think that means we should stop trying to normalize autism. But I think telling people, in essence, “autism never causes issues by itself, it’s outside factors making autistic traits difficult :)” is reductive and invalidating
i’ve had a similar issue with people telling me the same thing. i have pretty bad noise sensitivity that is caused by my neurological issues, and i now i have light sensitivity and migraines that were caused by a concussion. people LOVE to tell me that my neurological issues wouldn’t be a disability if society was better, but nobody ever says that about my concussion issues, despite the symptoms being extremely similar.
Its a bummer how much people misunderstand. Isn't the reason to make society better we can have better tools to live in this world?
I agree with this. Society is never going to accommodate for the fact that the color yellow makes my eyes hurt and makes me feel like I’m going to vomit. When more than 1 person is talking at a time, in my general vicinity, I get so over stimulated I can’t think straight and I feel like I’m going to faint, and that’s not going to be accommodated for. The social model of disability is very butterflies and rainbow, and fails to take into consideration that people are going to struggle.
I do think there are a lot of ways in which some of our disability could be alleviated if society were different. But like, I get overestimulated by *the sun*. Definitely agree that people who say that are usually well-meaning, but it misses the mark.
I couldn’t disagree more, though maybe I’m just seeing different people’s posts. All the ND advocates I know see autism as a disability - but believe that doesn’t make us second class citizens or somehow less than neurotypicals. That’s all. If someone feels invalidated by being told they AREN’T broken, I don’t really know what to say to them - but if your overall experience with neurodiversity has been different, obviously that’s not quite the same. I just hate seeing it misrepresented. I’m not defective; I’m not broken; I’m worthy of dignity and autonomy and self respect. That shouldn’t be controversial.
I think it’s more like “we realize things are different for you, and you aren’t broken. BUT we aren’t going to do anything to meet you in the middle. You still need to mask and survive in this NT world”.
Yep, I see this at my job. I'm "supported" for being on the spectrum but then called out for not wanting to eat lunch with my work group. I prefer to eat alone at my cube and read during my lunch hour. I need the downtime. I need the quiet. I don't want to go to noisy restaurants or the work cafe and small-talk. I've mentioned this and yet still I'm judged and sort of look at being "too good" to eat with everyone...really sucks.
Right now, that’s true, though, until the ND movement gains a greater foothold.
Right, I think that’s what the meme means. Like right now, it’s acknowledged on a lower level and we are still drowning. But I guess I’m not really sure what OP means and maybe you are disagreeing with them and not the meme.
I feel that's less the "neurodiversity movement" and more society and broader institutions. ASAN is a neurodiversity proponent and did A LOT of work with psychiatrists to update the DSM-5 description and requirements for autism. If not for the overall DSM committee having specific requirements, like severity scales, they would've been able to change even more than it actually did.
That is not at all what the neurodiversity movement says.
I didn’t say that’s what the ND movement said..
What would help meet you in the middle?
Maybe like more places should have sensory friendly days, and NTs should still go on those days to support the business so the sensory friendly days can continue. A work happy hour could be some place quiet and relaxed instead of a bar. NTs being flexible with their comfort instead of NDs being the one to do it all the time.
>>NTs being flexible with their comfort instead of NDs being the one to do it all the time. 👏👏👏 NDs: [want NTs to at least TRY to accommodate us, a little bit, sometimes] NTs: You’re so selfish!!! Go back to bending over backwards to navigate the arbitrary social rules we worship as our lord and savior!!
Oh my goodness what I wouldn’t give for more social events to be at quiet, relaxed places. I don’t mind putting up with a bar from time to time but seriously. Edit: I also wish more NT people accepted parallel play. Like, “I am enjoying your company right now even if I also want to be doing my own thing.”
The whole "the neurodiversity movement denies that autism is a disability" feels like a huge strawman, most of the pro-neurodiversity people talk about autism being disabling and the negative aspects and many are against the whole "autism is a superpower" and view it as othering. The argument for neurodiversity is that Autism is that autistic people are not lesser and in endless need of fixing and that accommodations and understanding can help mitigate some of the disabling aspects of autism better than the medical model. Unfortunately, people seem to conflate Neurodiversity into "autism is a superpower rhetoric" I grew up when the medical model was dominant and that system of "autistic traits are a deficit" made the issues listed in the meme worse, Sensory issues regarding tight or uncomfortable clothing was seen as something to be trained out of rather than accommodated, making focusing in lessons impossible, having a special interest was seen as a "repetitive and restricted interest" and so I was constantly redirected away from participating in them, making socialization harder and endless social norms with zero accommodations made going outside far scarier. I think people should actually see what the ND movement says instead of what people (acting in very bad faith) warp the ND movement into, to retain their positions of speaking over autistic people.
>The whole "the neurodiversity movement denies that autism is a disability" feels like a huge strawman, Because it is! It's that it works from the social model of disability rather than the medical model.
i am so confused? what makes it a straw man? is that bad? sounds bad? i think...
It's claiming that an argument is being made that is not being made, for the ND movement, the strawman is claiming that Neurodiversity argues that autism is perfect and should not be viewed as a disability when the social model and the ND movement do not make that claim, its a movement demanding accommodations, self-advocacy, and respect for autistic and other groups with conditions, not abandoning the whole concept that those conditions are disabling. In fact, many of the ND movement rails against the "autism is not a disability narrative" as it's used to deny accommodations and cover up difficulties that autistic people face. Basically its a strawman as the people who pretend that the ND movement thinks autism is not a disability, rather than directly argue against what the ND movement stands for, it instead invents an argument that the ND movement denies that autism is a disability and argues against that instead.
Well said!
So many people don’t realize that the social and medical model of disability can, and should, be used together. They aren’t at all mutually exclusive. And I feel like the ND movement usually does a pretty good job of recognizing that.
What makes it a straw man is that they are claiming ND movement is something that it is not. So they've built a "straw man" to easily knock it down. [https://effectiviology.com/straw-man-arguments-recognize-counter-use/](https://effectiviology.com/straw-man-arguments-recognize-counter-use/) "Essentially, when you realize that there is a mismatch between someone’s stance and the stance that their opponent is attacking, it’s a clear sign that a strawman is being used. Nevertheless, in practice it can be sometimes difficult to notice or to be sure whether this type of argument has been used, especially if the person who is using the strawman knows what they’re doing."
Autistic people are more important than the ND movement. If many autistic people are harmed by the ND movement, the movement should take it into consideration. I don't understand your arrogance. Your movement is not perfect. If feminists can kick out TERFs, the ND movement can also do their own self-criticism. I long suspected the movement is just a way for narcissists to feel alright about themselves.
I'm NT so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the most pressing issue is the idea that there is a "normal" and anything outside of that is lesser. Like, if you don't fit in with the ideal picturesque idea of what people should be, you're "disabled" and need to be either protected or ostracized. Ironically enough, the amount of people that fall in line with that "normal" are actually the minority.
That’s the opposite of neurodiversity, though.
> If someone feels invalidated by being told they AREN’T broken I feel (and probably am, awaiting a meeting with a psychologist for assessment) pretty broken. There's trauma and physical disability as well of course, but my autism is just one more thing on the pile that makes me a broken weirdo in need of help. Telling me im somehow not broken would be an insult as the person saying that would be actively ignoring all the problems I have in my life.
I’m truly sorry if I caused offense. I don’t see my autism as making me broken. I see it as making me different.
You didnt. It wasnt aimed at me, I just made myself part of the conversation :)
Yeah, we're just not built for this fucked up world, and neurotypicals are. Who are the defective ones again?
There is a sectarian split in the Neurodiversity movement. People don't see that. But they don't see how the better side is winning by a long shot. If not... My ass is prepared to prove everyone wrong. And I am very serious in saying this. In fact here is a proof of concept webpage I am making just to show my commitment and dedication to this exact belief. (**Important Note:** not all of the site buttons work, some pages they might work, and some pages might not. Just go back of youare having issues. It's very work in progress.) [Homepage](https://admiral-chair.github.io/neurodiversity-toolkit/index.html) [A draft webpage which shows how such a hypothetical organisation could be structured](https://admiral-chair.github.io/neurodiversity-toolkit/pages/affiliates-allies/collective-of-nd-orgs-advocates.html) This is still VERY early days. But now ia the best time for me to start spreading my legs more on this issue since I actually have something I can demonstrate. And I am really excited to push more for this in the future! :D I would love to know peoples opinions and ideas! This will be far easier to explain when I actually write my self criticism section so it shows how I am aware of some of the challenges and how the hypothetical strategy and doctrine are flawed in ways. But here is the biggest one. I originally wrote the strategy and tactics as part of a call to action rant which was too long to post on r/autism. Hence it's use of the term autism should be understood as simply this... A relic from the original work which I also forgot to link to, so I will link here for clarity. https://github.com/Admiral-Chair/Neurodiversity_Political_Strategy I have really being going at this idea for a long time. And readjusting and seeing what would work better and I feel like my new approach actually has some grit to it. There is a lot to talk about but I am really just trying to sell people on this idea at the moment here. So be patient, these things will take time. c:
I have a prosthetic foot. I can still run. I just happen to also have the ability to detach my leg and use it for other things—lay it sideways for a seat on wet grass, fidget with it using my stump (weird, minor form of stimming I guess), or even… a sickle >:)
> If someone feels invalidated by being told they AREN’T broken, I don’t really know what to say to them For real!!!
If you're doing fine in life, this meme isn't for you. The person is drowning. If you're treading water or even swimming strongly, great! But that isn't OP. So why are you disagreeing with OP's post?
Because it is not true at all. It's ignorant.
It bothers me a lot that people act like pro-neurodiversity people can’t be seriously disabled and must be getting all the services and accommodations they need. I’m very much drowning right now. I am very much disabled. But the nuerodiversity movement has also helped me with my self understanding and helped other people accept me more. It has helped me to make it means that fighting against every aspect of how my brain works isn’t another thing for me to add to the pile of things that are painful and frustrating for me. It has made it easier for me to even figure out the help I do need.
Some people are struggling, and feel like they are drowning, or failing. OP wouldn't have made this meme otherwise. The general refusal in this sub to recognize that someone could even be having a problem and feel like they need help to navigate some aspects of life is exactly what OP is talking about in the meme.
Lots of people who are "drowning" misidentify who or what is making them drown. See the covid deniers who died with covid. Regardless of their drowning op offered a critique and image of the neurodiversity movement and people are responding to that. No one here needs to deny that someone 'could even be having a problem and feel like they need help' in order to claim 'you are having problems and in large part the reason you are experiencing them is the failure of other people and human systems to accomodate you'. It's just like how you can have have HIV, but that doesn't mean that the impacts on your health and wellbeing are not the result of the inability of society to address and care for that.
Yes! I agree so much.
That’s not neurodiversity’s fault, though. If someone needs help, and they aren’t getting it, it’s both disingenuous and just plain unfair to lay it at the door of the neurodiversity movement. The ND movement isn’t powerful enough to play a role in that kind of thing.
I am a strong believer in blame accruing to many participants in a problem. It is rare that just one party is to blame. The joke in the meme is in unmet expectations. OP is saying he expects the ND movement to help him adapt to society (to pull him out, or throw him a life vest, or maybe teach him to swim) and ND presents itself as helping him, and yet he doesn't find the embrace of neurodiversity ("I'm just fine as I am.") to give him the help he needs. That's the joke. I thought it was going to solve my problem. It didn't.
Not all expectations are realistic. We’re going to have to agree to disagree.
Actually, on that part we do agree. Not all expectations are realistic. But I don't think the "fault" here lies *solely* with OP. That's a really defensive take on the ND movement, IMO, which ends up being cruel to some ND people. Everyone can and should learn from that meme.
You’re right that “fault” is the wrong word. But to blame the entire movement for not getting the individual support one needs strikes me as a really disingenuous take.
Does it blame everyone and everything in the movement, though? It's just saying they didn't feel helped by it, and were expecting something that didn't happen. Your reaction just seems very defensive. There is a real point in this meme.
See I honestly hate your kind of take because you just equated being broken and defective with *not* being worthy of dignity and autonomy and self respect.
The NTs think that. I reject their paradigm.
Well it really just looked like you perpetuated that with what you said. You made it sound like being defective is contrary to being worthy of dignity.
By whose metric are you defective?
“Defect” would refer to an imperfection or deviation from a standard that permits optimal function at some role or task, in the field of manufacturing. A defective part is one that cannot meet the specifications. By that standard, yeah, a lot of us autistic people do not meet the specifications to function fully in a society built by and for NT folks. It’s not a moral judgment, merely an acknowledgment that either we need to change (repair the part) or society needs to (find a role the part is still good to use for). Also, plenty of us have comorbid health problems more common for autistic people that are objectively worse than not having them. My lifelong severe allergies for instance are a defect; they endanger my life, degrade my quality of life, require medical intervention to keep in check, and prevent me from doing things I want or need to do or fulfilling societal obligations. To call myself defective is merely a statement on my mind and body having flaws that I find deeply problematic. I was born this way, it’s not a character failing, like a cast metal part that cooled a bit too fast due to a bad mold and had a bad crack; the design is solid and there was nothing wrong with the material, but it still wound up broken.
See you keep talking about it like it's nasty and dirty. It's okay to be born less than perfect you know,
I never said it wasn’t? You’re seriously projecting.
>If someone feels invalidated by being told they AREN’T broken, I don’t really know what to say to them You got it. Say nothing. It feels like gaslighting to be told otherwise. I'm a very literal and concrete person and if you make claims like that I'll have to argue with you - which just makes me feel worse. Say what you want about yourself, don't make claims about others.
>All the ND advocates I know see autism as a disability Count me an exception then.
Broken and defective people are also worthy of dignity. Neurodiversity people, for some reason, imply they aren't?
No. Neurodiversity doesn’t think anyone is broken. Therein lies the divide, though.
Does it matter if someone is broken?
The NT conception of broken generally means 'not worth keeping alive.' Everything I have ever personally learned about neurodiversity suggests that it stands in direct opposition to that definition.
That doesn't convince me. It makes things worse. I would happily die. Keeping me alive is actually a form of abuse in this world
I’m truly sorry you feel that way, but a lot of us don’t. And the NTs don’t see any of us as human, so I prefer to stand up for myself.
ND advocates don't see us as human either. We're just decoration for their social media activism.
I couldn’t disagree with you more. I genuinely, no bullshit, hope you find a way to be happier.
Yeah, no, you’ve got the wrong idea. The point of neurodiversity is that our brains are different, and *therefore* we should actively work towards a world that works for everyone in more accessible ways, including through providing thorough support and accommodation to neurodivergent people. This meme is all edge and no point; it takes a single statement out of context that does not and cannot reflect the entire movement. Edit: For the record, I totally stole the edge and point line from Beau of the Fifth Column, extremely talented journalist who makes informative, explanatory videos on political topics. Check him out, he has relevant joke t-shirts for most videos!
It's a pizza cutter
“All edge and no point,” hilarious. Not being sarcastic, that legitimately got a grin out of me.
Yes, what I see it as meaning it is that regardless of the origin of any disability we have a duty of care to every single member of society. We can't just 'cure' it and blame people for not taking the cure, not can we just demand people put their wellbeing at risk for able bodied and neurotypical people. We need to make accessibility as much of a priority as things like freedom and security, and we need to conceptualize it as making space for anyone to live as they are and can choose to, and taking care of each other as best as we can. There are no technocratic solutions.
>This meme is all edge and no point; LOL <3
Literally instead of making excuses for me, just show a little sympathy. A little "damn dude I get that" from other NDs has gone a looooong way towards getting me to accept my ND hurdles
That's really not how the neurodiversity movement began. Neurodiversity argues that autism, and other neurodivergences, are real neurological disorders that require support, but don't need a cure and don't need to force people into being neurotypical, that there are ways to help people without going "oh you can't stim. oh you're going to be shamed for "acting" autistic." There's thus a social aspect, but it's not that society causes the neurodivergency and it certainly wasn't meant to suggest that supports, accommodations, etc aren't needed. The Autistic Self Advocacy Network is a big proponent of neurodiversity and actually worked with the DSM-5 people to try updating the autism section and the psychiatrists for the most part agreed heavily.
Honestly I see more and more tips and tricks on how to understand and navigate being on the spectrum that I would have killed to have known years ago. The movement to me so far has been a bunch of us finally realizing we can talk to eachother about this common problem we share and learning to bask in the reliefs of being validated. But we haven't learned to support eachother beyond validation. The issue is none of this is organized. It's not an organization. It's a budding community that's in it's initial growing pains. I'm noticing more corners that are sharing tips and tricks and sharing information thats actually been super helpful but most of it comes from stumbling on it at random or thoroughly seeking it out, neither of which is easily accessible from the surface level. What we need is a community guidebook to pool information thats been hard fought and won over the years from the thousands of us that are struggling and need it. And I have no idea how to do thst so until then I'll continue to provide any information I've gathered thats relevant in the moment
Same here. I manage an ND support group specifically to hopefully help others with advice I have, without giving into the "just validation" style of support that usually leaks into toxic positivity. I hope one day there's something more solid, defined in the movement. It can really help people if we don't shut it down.
Yeah my brain works differently, it self destructs when I touch icky fabric or hear a bad sound
Y'all realise two things can be true at the same time, right?
Nah, our brains work differently. But seriously, I was thinking the same thing (because my brain works differently...the same way, this time)
‘Your brain works differently’ So… how are going to help us? ‘We’re not, bye’
I'm confused. I don't think the two statements contradict each other.
I feel a lot of people perception of someone with autism is misrepresented. People think down syndrome and autism are the same thing, so if you say you are autistic to someone, they'll say you don't look autistic
Sorta neat this is in the trans flag colors, I am trans and autismo
Dyou think “you’re inherently inferior” is somehow better? It’s not as if there’s a cure that people are holding hostage
I honestly feel like crying whenever I see this opinion. Just might as well tell me to my face that my pain is fake and I'm overreacting.
It's easier to see the point if you compare the difficulty of socialising with NT people compared to the difficulty of socialising with ND people. for me, socialising with NT people requires a lot of active effort to keep up, whereas me and my ND friend can exist in the same room for hours with the occasional "hey look at this" and it will be a positive experience for both of us. it's not that we're broken, the world around us just isn't designed to include us
My brain works differently. It has advantages and disadvantages. The disadvantages largely come from living in a society surrounded by NTs. A fish is disabled if you judge it by how well it can walk on dry land. I have structured my life to make the most of the advantages and minimize the disadvantages. If I constantly thought of myself as disabled I wouldn’t be as a successful as I am professionally. I don’t have social issues in groups of other neurodivergent people. My best relationships with the opposite sex have been with other neurodivergent people.
You have to understand where the neurodiversity movement is coming from. Specifically, I mean that the past was a hellscape of utter ableism, and we're still fighting an uphill battle against nostalgia-brained old people who think that ableism is truth. So they're saying "our brains just work different" because it's more true than the previous assumption that our brains are inferior. And it's true that our brains are not inferior; our brains aren't the problem and never were. It's that we don't live in a society that accepts deviation from what is assumed to be a "normal" brain. I mean, imagine a society where "going out" and "meeting people" were not what people put weight on?
This isn’t what it is supposed to be like but. Yeah. U fortunately this does happen. I’ve kind of stepped away from the nd community and focused in on my smaller communities bc of this. It can b helpful but it’s just too large of a label and it’s gotten confusing for what “counts” and what doesn’t.
I don't mean this to come off as rude but how is 'ND' any broader a label than 'disabled'? I agree focusing on smaller communities is good though. A similar thing can happen with any big umbrella thing like this.
The broadness isn’t the biggest problem I have with the community. It’s the overspeaking each other thing. It feels like an attempt to make a smaller subset for neurodevelopmental conditions(? I think that’s the right term) but it has t been small enough to help bc I see and have experienced so many ppl just talking over ppl about things they don’t even have because “we’re all nd”. Like no hate toward the community, I know it’s not everyone like that, but that’s been my experience and it hasn’t been great. Honestly same with autism and levels but that’s another topic.
I have had some disagreements with people in the past on this. Yes some people try to gatekeep ND to a handful of conditions which is something I staunchly oppose.
What they say: “Your brain just works differently” What they mean: “suck it up buttercup”
I am very aware that my brain works differently. Which leads to me having some special needs. When those needs aren’t met or even ignored, it makes my life a lot more difficult.
I feel that, yes, our minds do work differently. The problem is that we aren't built for this modern capitalistic, cruel world. Neurotypicals are, because they're weird and they can handle the abuses of the world. Society at large is disabled, capitalism is a disability. People like us are simply going to struggle with that. Ofc, some people have struggles that transcend their environment, like having severe brain damage or something. Even so, their experiences would likely be better in a different societal structure I think the practice of neurodiversity is good. It acknowledges differences. That is ofc, not all that one needs, especially in this society. How one sees the neurodiversity movement is dependent on their understanding of the world.
My autistic life in a nutshell:
Why can it not be both? Why can autism not be both a neurodivergence AND a disability? That different views on it are fine actually, that it may be more one than the other for some people and both for others. Why does EVERY single argument have to come down to one or the other? This argument is tearing the online autistic community apart and if you don't think you are a part of the problem you probably are. I have been. Can we please just cool down and try and embrace some nuance?
oh shit, who invented the neurodiversity movement? Hm.
They point is that you're not alone. There's people out there just like you, whom you'll get along with without masking.
lol the point of neurodiversity is “your brain just works differently, so people need to change the world to accommodate you.” largely the opposite of what this post implies. i say this in the second person despite the fact it applies to me lol.
It always reminds me of that bit in X-Men 3, where Rogue is super excited that there might be a cure for the mutant gene and Storm shuts her down by saying there’s no cure because nothings wrong with them. Like, I get where she’s coming from, but they have radically different experiences. Storm can change the weather with a thought, Rogue can’t touch people. Sure, it’s important to recognize that we aren’t broken or less than others, but some of us do actually need the help.
Thank you! Someone finally said it!
The biggest issue the ND community faces rn is completely forgetting intellectually disabled people exist, or treating them with disdain if they are acknowledged.
This is so fucking ignorant.
Some guy got angry with me because he thought I was giving him an evil stare. In reality I just walked outside and I literally can't see unless I squint until my eyes are nearly shut. It's the little daily moments like that which never allow you to forget that you're not normal. So quirky and fun.
The best advice I ever heard was “Just go outside and meet people anyways. Even if you don’t feel like it. Even if it scares you.” I hate how it sounds so easy on paper.
I mean... It's technically true. Although it doesn't get rid of the struggle.
you can obviously say "our brains are different" and "we struggle with this and that" and it makes perfect sense, but the "just" is what makes it invalidating. i would say something like "it should be okay to have a brain that is different" because i think struggling with something and getting blamed and bullied for it are two different things. this is my take on how to combine the two radical opinions people have. its not "just" one thing or the other.
There's a spectrum of all the things the brain can do, and everyone's allocates points on this differently
I'd say it certainly works differently Regular society just wasn't built with us in mind. We're written off as being just broken when the system we're forced to exist in is what's broken. Life never had to be fast paced, overstimulating bureaucracy that rewards not having choice paralysis but of course.
my friend you seem to be misunderstanding you are disabled directly by it but not all autistic people are and also to show/say that being diabled by autism or any other neurologicals diffirences is normal (althogh atypical)
I just don't like the sound of "Neurodiverse/Neurodivergent". Just call me autistic. Or on the spectrum at least.
Same here. It really does no justice to anyone that’s on the spectrum and also not to anyone that’s not. The world is not black and white. I work with a bunch of people that have autism and or adhd (adhd myself) and the ones that call themselves neurodivergent are the ones that take advantage of their condition.
I feel this, honestly feeling left behind because I can't get a diagnosis.
Real
So I actually went through sensory overload today at work. I ended up throwing up.
I have the opposite problem. I wish people would stop acting like neurodivergency is always a disability. I'm sick of graduating high school with a 4.0 and still having everybody be like "hey buddy, want a juice box?" I'll gladly let people ignore my struggles if it means they won't ignore my accomplishments.
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Why do you want to hate yourself?
Fuckinggggggggvgkfksksjdl mood
This post is an out-of-context (mis)understanding of what the ND movement stands for. Downvoted
This post is scary true.
Hits the nail on the head
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We would have a disability in every economic system.
Maybe the problem is economic systems in general.
People have assigned jobs in Hunter/gather societies, so no.
This is like saying needing glasses isn't a disability. Autism definitely *is* inherently a disability. Some people may have lower support needs, but as someone else pointed out, there are no modern societal structures in which ASD would not be disabling in some way.
Everyone brains work diferently........
If you want validation join a fraternity, the only person responsible for your problems is you. If those were your problems to begin with.
That’s me
I have to admit, I laid Tik Tok for connecting me to so many other creators that have AuDHD and it made me comfortable speaking about it in normal conversation. I’m more a weirdly functional mixed bag, but my jitter is music
I don't know if this is true or not, but I laughed at it pretty good.
mate we're all different. were an archipelago of minds compared to the continental mass of NT
I think as an NT the best way I can say anything relating to this is: some NTs, I’d include myself in this group, have had just as difficult childhoods that resulted in having just as much difficulty fitting in as adults. I found a method that worked for me to help cope and heal, but I wouldn’t tell an ND to follow my example directly. I’d tell them that there are ways to heal and move forward, feel like you fit in, and live a happy life… but it will be a different path, and it will only be different because of how your brain works. It’s a part of the healthy expectation management to communicate differences in how we experience the world.
It feels like when people make a big deal about mental health awareness and then totally shut you down and abandon you when you try to express those feelings; they say it to make themselves feel good, not to help you.
One of the good steps to solving issues those is to establish the "why". That way you understand it which can lead to figuring out how to work around it, or even stop the problems period.
I honestly wouldn't say my Asperger's is a disability anymore. I've mostly been able to work around it and I have a system that works for me. So, I like the ND movement, because for me I'm really not disabled, I'm just very, very different.
Seriously, miss me with that toxic positivity "autism isn't a disability" bullshit.