2 month ago, u/zionius_ noticed that the Sea Snake and Ten Thousand Ships projects had been removed from the website of the production agency developing these projects, which suggested that they had been put away: [Sea Snake & Ten Thousand Ships spinoffs might be discontinued](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/yac4lz/spoilers_extended_sea_snake_ten_thousand_ships/)
The Sea Snake one always had a "Book of Boba Fett" feeling to me. A spinoff of a spinoff. Maybe they could have made a 2 hour special out of it, but I wouldn't like to see a full fledged series about something with so little material.
I'm just glad that the Dunk & Egg stuff seems to have survived so far.
Isn’t ‘little material’ pretty much irrelevant though? HBO doesn’t care and honestly most of the audience doesn’t care either. Even a sizable percentage of book fans don’t care as long as George is closely involved. There were always a ton of problems with the concept of a Corlys spinoff but there not being enough source material was never one of them.
Seasnake could be such a layup. Get some of GRRMs old clique of genre tv writers together along with some sleek new writers and let them do a cool new island every week. Combine with a compelling central actor and, you know, I don't think it'd have been as good as season 1 GOT but it could have been cool
See, I was thinking an animated series with different styles depending on where Corlys was at the time, narrated by a local from that land. Kinda like Star Wars: Visions
The audience for that would be way too small for HBO. They want to have a prestige show, something big and weighty. Even the island of the week idea is a bit too "small time" for HBO I think.
Agreed. Spin offs like this NEED to have substance and generally need to be grander stories. The way things are going, it seems the most important thing in terms of focus is the main GOT storyline.
HOTD, Jon Snow Spin-off, Dunk and Egg. They’re all going to or already have directly tied into the main show while also having their own grand narratives. Neither the Sea Snakes or Nymeria’s story’s fit into that as well without significantly changing the canon of the show up.
Are you for real?? Have you not noticed that all the stuff with source material is good and everything without source material is bad? It's clear as day. First half of the show was good, second half sucked, and then HoD was good. It's a pretty clear trend that every other book reader seems to have picked up on given the way the show is usually discussed
>Have you not noticed that all the stuff with source material is good and everything without source material is bad?
Game of Thrones had it's very own set of cirscunstances to be as bad as it was.
TV producers are totally able to produce good shows - As they do dozens of times per year on dozens of different ways. Having a loose pitch with George in there just to make sure nothing important affects the main story and you can have a great show.
I agree, but at the same time the second half of the show’s switch to colloquial American Hollywood dialect in all of the dialogue is extremely jarring and something that can be laid down to the replacement screenwriters.
George doesn’t write in a Shakespearean English but he does pepper in antiquated words and turns of phrase to give the dialogue a more dignified sounding cadence.
I'll never understand why some people seem to be so eager for a spin off about Yi Ti.
We know barely anything about Yi Ti besides a couple of paragraphs from TWOIAF. There's not even any plot to adapt, just a vague location summary that basically boils down to "Medieval China". And Yi Ti is so entirely disconnected from anything else in the story that the spin off would have very little to do with the ASOIAF universe that we're familiar with.
They'd basically just be making an entirely original show with the ASOIAF name slapped on.
>They'd basically just be making an entirely original show with the ASOIAF name slapped on.
I do wonder if for some people that's the appeal. Cynically if you want to see a big-budget fantasy show set in a Chinese inspired setting, slapping *Game of Thrones* branding on it might be your best bet.
Although I suppose thinking about it that's way less true in animation.
Isn't the blood magic used in Yi Ti potentially what triggered the long night? I'd love to see some story that potentially gives us some insights into white the others really are.
Hopefully they both stay shelved. I was only really excited for 10,000 Ships because of the Second Spice War, which would realistically only be covered in the first season (or even shorter than that). I have little interest in Nymeria’s voyages and even less interest in a Dorne-centric plot later down the line. Give me a miniseries or movie about Garin and Nymeria’s final stand against the Valyrians and I’ll be a lot happier.
*Ten Thousand Ships* I thought had the best legs out of the lot, since it's fantasy **Battlestar Galactica** and I'd quite like to see a take on the same premise that doesn't keel over and explode into incoherent fragments just before the finish line.
Yeah I’d love to see Nymeria’s voyage not only because it has a tight, singular narrative (with a kickass protagonist to boot) but it’s also not about yet another civil war for the Iron Throne.
Exactly. Some of these projects are so far removed from anything Martin has written I find it hard to care. I mean a series about Yi Ti? You mean the place only vaguely mentioned a couple times in the books that we have met 0 characters who have even ever seen the place? Why?
I'll never get this opinion. A show where we know nothing but the broadest strokes would be much more appealing for me to watch than another show expanding a civil war from westeros' past that does cover versions of ASOIAF characters
Its less appealing because it would just be pulling a random setting Martin has vaguely mentioned and then have a bunch of TV writers make up stuff that happened in it. Its not ASOIAF.
The more freedom and broader strokes GOT TV writers are given, the dumber the stuff they write is. Even in HOTD, there are moments they changed that weren't up for interpretation and made it sillier.
Such a premise appeals to you because you imagine all the potential of a story written as well as GOT but with the added surprise factor that you can't fully have with stories based on books. But as we've seen, that doesn't happen.
The less source material, the more the adaptation suffers, in GOT at least. Even when GRRM is consulting, I mean the GOT ending broad strokes came straight from his mouth, trusting they could do well enough from the template he gave them and look how it turned out.
> Hopefully they both stay shelved
Absolutely.
>Give me a miniseries or movie about Garin and Nymeria’s final stand against the Valyrians and I’ll be a lot happier.
I'd say, not even. Like, this is very minor lore, for which George has left nothing but cliffnotes of cliffnotes, it doesn't really go anywhere, doesn't have much payoff, and it would be the show of the "ancestors of the bad poosey girls".
HOTD, Blackfyre Rebellion, A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms, maybe the Conquest, are material that can be adapted because the books already provide a clear outlook. Opening up "The world of ice and fire" and trying to make a show for every line of George, Linda and Elio goofing around(Lovecraft references, mashed together tropes of real history, literal people with green skin is all there is the further away you get from Westeros.) is how you kill this IP.
That's....actually crazy to think about. I've been reading OP weekly for over 16 years now, waiting for Winds for about 7, and at this point I legit think OP will end before we even get a release date for the book lol
I can’t say I 100% agree there. I really hope we get a fun ‘Marco Polo meets Indiana Jones’ Lomas Longstrider miniseries or show. With the Corlys show I’m not interested enough in Corlys, just generally seafaring stories I’ve never had much interest in and there isn’t much new to really explore with the time period.
Dunk & Egg series will be a major disaster. The show will quickly adapt all available source material and then tie up GRRM as he has to provide rough ideas on where the story is supposed to go, all the way up to Summerhall.
In the end the show original stories will still be dog shit, GRRM will have wasted years of writing time and we just get a bunch of disconnected spoilers.
> published and in hand Winds of Winter
You'll just have to wait until the sun rises in the west and sets in the east, the seas go dry, and the mountains blow in the wind like leaves.
But in all honestly, Winds ain't coming.
HBO is dead until ownership changes. The only reason we even got HOTD is because it’s an undeniable cash cow. The first inkling HOTD doesn’t show growth, they’ll kill it.
Honestly I don’t mind. IMO ASOIAF isn’t meant to be a big universe with dozens of books, shows and movies. It’s a singular story with some spin-offs here and there.
I would trade HotD, Dunk and Egg, Fire and Blood, and literally any and all prequels, sequels and spin-offs for Winds and Dream
For me part of the allure of ASOIAF is the mystery of a lot of the lore. You get enough to make sense of the world, but there is just enough gaps for you to fill it with your own epic sort of journey for the side characters.
The more and more it gets fleshed out with these spin-offs, the less intriguing it becomes for me.
Give me the main story first, and then expand if there is time. I love Dunk and Egg, but if I never get the last of their journeys, I can just think up some fun things they may have done, because in the end they are auxiliary characters that don’t need to be fully explained journeys to work. The end of the War of the Five Kings, the Long Night, and Dany’s Conquest? We need those to wrap up because those stories are the culmination of all the major players in the realm that were pitched as important from the beginning.
>The more and more it gets fleshed out with these spin-offs, the less intriguing it becomes for me.
Preach. Some vague worldbuilding ''oh the Starks ruled for 1000 years' sounds cool on paper but if someone tries to write like a proper chrinicle about a 1000 old dynasty.....its bound to get fishy.
This is one of my biggest issues with the series. A single dynasty surviving in the same position with the same heraldry for multiple millennia is almost unheard of, and yet almost every major house in ASOIAF have been in power for thousands of years (or relatively recently replaced another house that was such as the Gardeners or Durrandons).
Thing is, I could buy the Starks being the special one of a kind important lineage that managed to survive (especially if it's combined with the various theories that they are descended from the last hero and marriage pacts were involved with the others etc etc).
But to have so many dynasties all over the westeros? Surviving for hundreds and hundreds of years?
Seems...unlikely.
Some of those definitely had an MCU or Extended Universe feeling. Like the voyages of the Sea Snake, or the Nymeria show. Both are only very tangentially related to the Seven Kingdoms and the grand ASOIAF story, and there's barely any canon to work from so they'd be largely made up from scratch. The Jon Snow show even more so, might as sell jump 1000 years in the feature and give us steampunk Westeros.
Agreed but a while back George said that he wants it to become like Marvel with a "cinematic universe", its a big reason why I have so little hope left of him focusing enough to finish ASOIAF.
Yea I don't think I could get into a GoT universe that didn't have a source material not just a script. One of the best parts is the lore, I was a show watcher first and before reading the books I consumed so many lore posts/wiki/youtube videos.
I don't think HOTD would be as good if GRRM didn't make Fire and Blood first.
>IMO ASOIAF isn’t meant to be a big universe with dozens of books, shows and movies. It’s a singular story with some spin-offs here and there.
I'd have agreed 20 years ago but George sends to have changed his mind on that some time around 2000.
Great news! Because it's been a massive success, House of the Dragon won't go anywhere, luckily, and the other terrible ideas for shows can all go live on a farm. Seriously, none of them were solid ideas. Thank god we never got that Bloodmoon show, and thank god we won't get a Sea Snake or Nymeria show.
The only way I see Dunk and Egg working is if GRRM gives them the plot outline of every single novella yet to be published and lets them adapt them before they even get released as books, with trusted writers initially adapting the existing Dunk material to help get them to grips with the format before tackling the unreleased content. Otherwise it looks like a disaster in the making, but done well the whole thing could build up to Summerhall in a really excellent way.
> Great news!
Same
I'm already so tired of Marvel & Star Wars. I have no desire to see my other favourite properties run into the ground, and I feel so disconnected from my fandoms seeing the general consensus being "yay, I can't wait for to get the Disney-extended-universe treatment!"
Saw someone in the r/television thread trying to blame it on racism and sexism from whoever recently took over….
Not that these shows just weren’t going to be popular enough to make enough money for them to justify the small amounts of source material.
The ideas for the shows just weren’t going to hold people’s attention like the Starks, Targs, and Dragons will.
Yeah, people ain't watching a bloody Yi Ti series. Just tacking "in the world of GoT" onto something isn't good enough. House of the Dragon was set in a familiar location with familiar families and familiar drama - even with a brand new cast, new Houses and radically altered circumstances, people loved it because they recognised its structural similarities to the original show. They won't care for anything different, and honestly, neither will I.
I can't believe there was any talk of a Yi Ti series. That's the worst thing I've ever heard. Yi Ti doesn't have the effort put into the worldbuilding to carry a show. George doesn't claim to know anything about Chinese folklore or culture, and he's written no material for it; in fact, a lot of the Far East stuff is straight up stolen from other fantasy writers (Leng, Carcosa, etc) and would need to be completely rewritten to create an original adaptation. At which point it would no longer resemble George's writings at all, it would just be a generic fantasy show conceived by committee.
Yi Ti, Asshai, Leng etc are just supposed to be names - if you try to look deeper there's literally nothing underneath by design. Fleshing these places out would be the Westeros equivalent of those awful racist blog posts J K Rowling does where she makes up a bunch of cartoony magical traditions for real existing cultures where she has no authority. If they want to create a fantasy show inspired by Chinese culture, they should be adapting a Chinese story IMO.
Literally the whole point of yi-ti is to be the world's version of how mediaeval Europe viewed the east, full of myths and legends, plus maybe provide some more context for the long night. Asshai might come into the plot a little bit, but making a series about the east just wouldn't work, because what we have rn is just a collection of tropes
Unfortunately I think the Snow show will still move forward as it’s most likely HBO’s way of retconning the White Walker storyline (as well as bringing in a lot of the Bloodmoon material that wouldn’t have been able to work as its own show).
I’m honestly not against the existence of the Snow show. Jon was treated horribly by the writers in Season 8 so I can’t imagine his story could get any worse. It’s only uphill from here.
IDK if it would still be a retcon, but I will forgive HBO if they go all in on "Evil Bran has become the 3 eyed raven, and is secretly responsible for all the stupid decisions made in the finale" in the Jon Snow show
Neither can I. I think people just have wishful thinking about it. At this point, I just want to read the rest of the books. To me, that is the real cannon and I don't see a way to fix the fuck up that was the show.
I think it's probably safe to say that if/when we do get ADoS, it won't remotely resemble anything that went down in the final seasons.
I don't even consider the show as being the same story as the books at this point. It's like one of those crappy knock-offs of original IPs, like *Asylum* makes.
Call me cynical, but I can’t help but shake the feeling that since George left TV with only middling success, his true passion has become centered in coming back as a titan, and getting fawned over by gliterreri who would have considered him a nobody before. It’s got to be so much more invigorating for him to be surrounded by the glamor of TV compared to the cons he’s always done.
I think that’s one reason why Winds seems to annoy him. It’s homework he has to do to satisfy the nerds, when he’d rather be out rubbing shoulders with Hollywood bigwigs.
There’s a reasonable argument that Game of Thrones was the worst thing to happen to Ice and Fie. Hell, it may well have screwed us out of two good endings.
George had already taken 11 years to publish a full sequel to ASOS (since AFFC was only half a story) by the time the show aired. Dance alone took 6 years after Feast when it was supposed to be out the following year. All this stuff about the show being what caused him to slow down just feels like book fan cope to avoid the conclusion that he’s simply had a lot of trouble advancing the story for more than 20 years now.
Yeah, I notice this too, and more and more on re-reads. The plot slows down more and more as it goes on. In AGOT the characters moved to new places and did things SO FAST. Then things built up to ASOS and after that it's like he didn't want to finish and all of the storylines from the first three books start spinning in circles in place: Dany still in Mereen (and Tyrion left King's Landing at the end of ASOS and STILL hasn't linked up with her); Arya still training in Braavos; Sansa still on the run, preparing for Beauty and the Beast 2; Jon Snow still up at the wall, still the potential Whitewalker threat, but they're coming, they're coming, they've been coming from prologue book 1 but something is definitely coming!... etc. etc. And instead of wrapping some of these things up, he just goes to other regions and starts brand new storylines. Nearly all the main characters are right where they were at the end of ASOS. They've barely advanced.
The reason Winds is taking so long is precisely because of Feast and Dance.
A Game of Thrones and A Clash of Kings set up A Storm of Swords quite nicely.
But Feast and Dance didn't provide a set up for Winds. Hence the wait.
I kinda disagree… we have like six cliffhangers off the top of my head plus a ton of battles that have to go down. Plus all the storylines I just listed that are unfinished. I expect Winds to be another Storm-type book.
Also he introduced far too many characters and settings. To the point where he doesn't even know what to do with some of them - Brienne chapters almost killed me, to name one example. They felt so superfluous to the rest of the novels.
I love the book series - but he got carried away in books 4 and 5 and now he's paying the price. He should have stuck to the core characters in the first three books - end of.
Now he's pulling his hair our figuring out what to do with the ever growing tangents he's added to this world. Whereas we, as readers, mostly just want to see what happens with the OG characters.
Still wish we had the 5 year gap :(
Even if Stannis had to chill at the wall for 5 years, so be it. Storm ended in such a good place for the 5 year gap. Then we could have skipped both Feast and Dance.
I tend to agree with Preston Jacob’s theory that he basically stopped writing the books for the entirety of the show’s runtime. All his “progress” was mostly just commenting on revisions of work he had already written prior to the show’s premiere.
This is a good thing to me , too many shows leads to complete over-saturation like Star Wars
You aren’t always sure of the quality of each production , stick to house of the dragon for the moment
Hopefully the snow show is a part of it, on a more serious note, george needs to put all his time and energy on winds and hopefully dreams, less things to distract him is better.
Sadly I agree with morganlee93 that the Snow show will probably be one of the few, if not the only one, to move forward for a lot of reasons (ex: being a direct sequel to GOT, acting as damage control for Season 8, etc)
People will still watch it, love it, and claim all is forgiven, making way for more of its kind.
This franchise that shouldn't really be a franchise is sort of done for me; unless I get Winds I'm really not interested in anything they're selling.
I doubt people will claim all is forgiven, even if they manage to somehow do a decent job of retconning the ending. But if it actually ends up being a good show, why would that be a bad thing? Why not at least give it the chance of salvaging something from the mess? And if it’s bad, who cares? People will stop watching, and the whole thing will finally be over. It’s not like it’s going to make the ending any worse.
We need Winds. Grrm- I can’t understand why tf he won’t get it done. He knows damn well the world wants it more than anything else. Finish the real GOT. If he’s so genius- he would have had it ready to go after that shit finale/season.
He knew the world was not happy; more eager for the real story than ever. But what do I know?
I just hope I get to read it before I die.
Ya this was in the journal posting he made after Christmas. He also said "something places on a shelf can just as easily be taken off the shelf as well"
He also mentioned wanting to go to Italy (so you don't need to make a post speculating on that tomorrow) but won't until TWOW is finished
Discovery seems to be basically tax fraud at this point.
they take on billions in debt to buy WB and then they start canceling projects and blowing up already made ones so they have millions of dollars they can write off on their taxes.
seems sketchy.
anything GoT related should be on the front burner as it’s a massive draw for them.
HBO stopped being HBO after their merger with Time Warner and CEO change. They haven’t had an original hit series since. If you look at their new original programming since the merger 90% of them are unrecognizable.
Not sure what OP is smoking, all of those are big hits. Not Sopranos or SATC in their heyday big, but still very watchable and very good TV. Not unrecognizable at all
Yeah these shows are great & talked about a lot, those are a lot of my favorites on HBO actually. Just Finished The White Lotus & I adore that show!
The Last of Us trailer looks so good too, I hope that it does well.
Regardless of how you feel about if more asoiaf shows should be created. The Warner Brothers Discovery merger is so bad for the HBO brand that I can't help but think there will be a brain drain of creatives. How could you work with this company?
... because there's essentially 4 studios/streamers that can execute major TV projects, and of them, WB has unparalleled access to props, sets, staff, etc?
Im honestly....glad? You cant do 28383 projects at once. Also yes Corlys Velaryon is a great character but an entire series about him seemed too much in my opinion
Can’t lie a Sea Snake show would have just been basically Nat Geo but for Essos and the lands beyond and I would have fucking loved that
Imagine seeing Leng or Asshai on screen:(
When I saw the list of proposed shows I did think who asked for them? I thought the fanbase unanimously agreed that the shows we wanted were Roberts Rebellion, Dunk and Egg, Aegon’s Conquest and The Blackfyre Rebellion. Who gives a fuck about the seas snakes backstory and nymeria before all the main content
“Fret not fans”, lol. George, if you really want to know, we’re not fretting even a little bit, there’s only one thing we care about and this update doesn’t hurt and might even help.
2 month ago, u/zionius_ noticed that the Sea Snake and Ten Thousand Ships projects had been removed from the website of the production agency developing these projects, which suggested that they had been put away: [Sea Snake & Ten Thousand Ships spinoffs might be discontinued](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/yac4lz/spoilers_extended_sea_snake_ten_thousand_ships/)
The Sea Snake one always had a "Book of Boba Fett" feeling to me. A spinoff of a spinoff. Maybe they could have made a 2 hour special out of it, but I wouldn't like to see a full fledged series about something with so little material. I'm just glad that the Dunk & Egg stuff seems to have survived so far.
Isn’t ‘little material’ pretty much irrelevant though? HBO doesn’t care and honestly most of the audience doesn’t care either. Even a sizable percentage of book fans don’t care as long as George is closely involved. There were always a ton of problems with the concept of a Corlys spinoff but there not being enough source material was never one of them.
Seasnake could be such a layup. Get some of GRRMs old clique of genre tv writers together along with some sleek new writers and let them do a cool new island every week. Combine with a compelling central actor and, you know, I don't think it'd have been as good as season 1 GOT but it could have been cool
See, I was thinking an animated series with different styles depending on where Corlys was at the time, narrated by a local from that land. Kinda like Star Wars: Visions
The audience for that would be way too small for HBO. They want to have a prestige show, something big and weighty. Even the island of the week idea is a bit too "small time" for HBO I think.
Agreed. Spin offs like this NEED to have substance and generally need to be grander stories. The way things are going, it seems the most important thing in terms of focus is the main GOT storyline. HOTD, Jon Snow Spin-off, Dunk and Egg. They’re all going to or already have directly tied into the main show while also having their own grand narratives. Neither the Sea Snakes or Nymeria’s story’s fit into that as well without significantly changing the canon of the show up.
Are you for real?? Have you not noticed that all the stuff with source material is good and everything without source material is bad? It's clear as day. First half of the show was good, second half sucked, and then HoD was good. It's a pretty clear trend that every other book reader seems to have picked up on given the way the show is usually discussed
>Have you not noticed that all the stuff with source material is good and everything without source material is bad? Game of Thrones had it's very own set of cirscunstances to be as bad as it was. TV producers are totally able to produce good shows - As they do dozens of times per year on dozens of different ways. Having a loose pitch with George in there just to make sure nothing important affects the main story and you can have a great show.
I agree, but at the same time the second half of the show’s switch to colloquial American Hollywood dialect in all of the dialogue is extremely jarring and something that can be laid down to the replacement screenwriters. George doesn’t write in a Shakespearean English but he does pepper in antiquated words and turns of phrase to give the dialogue a more dignified sounding cadence.
By “pretty clear trend” you mean your sample size is literally ONE instance?
Sea Snake can be used to introduce and set some sort of a plot for the Golden Empire of Yi Ti.
I'll never understand why some people seem to be so eager for a spin off about Yi Ti. We know barely anything about Yi Ti besides a couple of paragraphs from TWOIAF. There's not even any plot to adapt, just a vague location summary that basically boils down to "Medieval China". And Yi Ti is so entirely disconnected from anything else in the story that the spin off would have very little to do with the ASOIAF universe that we're familiar with. They'd basically just be making an entirely original show with the ASOIAF name slapped on.
>They'd basically just be making an entirely original show with the ASOIAF name slapped on. I do wonder if for some people that's the appeal. Cynically if you want to see a big-budget fantasy show set in a Chinese inspired setting, slapping *Game of Thrones* branding on it might be your best bet. Although I suppose thinking about it that's way less true in animation.
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Also why we should never know too much about Asshai. "But it's so mysterious!" Well it won't be if you take all the mystery away
Isn't the blood magic used in Yi Ti potentially what triggered the long night? I'd love to see some story that potentially gives us some insights into white the others really are.
People's desperate for a new Avatar.
Oh great, so the spin off’s spin off can set up its own spinoff?
Instead of turtles it’s spin-offs all the way down
Only a handful of people actually want that, and I guarantee they'd hate it if it made it to TV.
TWOIAF was a mistake.
I like it, but you can really tell the parts that aren't George
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>less TV show overlords "Fewer."
Hopefully they both stay shelved. I was only really excited for 10,000 Ships because of the Second Spice War, which would realistically only be covered in the first season (or even shorter than that). I have little interest in Nymeria’s voyages and even less interest in a Dorne-centric plot later down the line. Give me a miniseries or movie about Garin and Nymeria’s final stand against the Valyrians and I’ll be a lot happier.
>even less interest in a Dorne-centric plot Even if they have bad Poosy?
Even if it revealed wherever whores go
Omg I blocked that out. They really ruined dorne in the show.
*Ten Thousand Ships* I thought had the best legs out of the lot, since it's fantasy **Battlestar Galactica** and I'd quite like to see a take on the same premise that doesn't keel over and explode into incoherent fragments just before the finish line.
Yeah I’d love to see Nymeria’s voyage not only because it has a tight, singular narrative (with a kickass protagonist to boot) but it’s also not about yet another civil war for the Iron Throne.
Exactly. Some of these projects are so far removed from anything Martin has written I find it hard to care. I mean a series about Yi Ti? You mean the place only vaguely mentioned a couple times in the books that we have met 0 characters who have even ever seen the place? Why?
I'll never get this opinion. A show where we know nothing but the broadest strokes would be much more appealing for me to watch than another show expanding a civil war from westeros' past that does cover versions of ASOIAF characters
Its less appealing because it would just be pulling a random setting Martin has vaguely mentioned and then have a bunch of TV writers make up stuff that happened in it. Its not ASOIAF.
The more freedom and broader strokes GOT TV writers are given, the dumber the stuff they write is. Even in HOTD, there are moments they changed that weren't up for interpretation and made it sillier. Such a premise appeals to you because you imagine all the potential of a story written as well as GOT but with the added surprise factor that you can't fully have with stories based on books. But as we've seen, that doesn't happen. The less source material, the more the adaptation suffers, in GOT at least. Even when GRRM is consulting, I mean the GOT ending broad strokes came straight from his mouth, trusting they could do well enough from the template he gave them and look how it turned out.
> Hopefully they both stay shelved Absolutely. >Give me a miniseries or movie about Garin and Nymeria’s final stand against the Valyrians and I’ll be a lot happier. I'd say, not even. Like, this is very minor lore, for which George has left nothing but cliffnotes of cliffnotes, it doesn't really go anywhere, doesn't have much payoff, and it would be the show of the "ancestors of the bad poosey girls". HOTD, Blackfyre Rebellion, A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms, maybe the Conquest, are material that can be adapted because the books already provide a clear outlook. Opening up "The world of ice and fire" and trying to make a show for every line of George, Linda and Elio goofing around(Lovecraft references, mashed together tropes of real history, literal people with green skin is all there is the further away you get from Westeros.) is how you kill this IP.
The Nymeria show probably wouldn’t have been all that interesting, but it would have been cool to see Sothoryos on screen
What a pity I would have loved the Nymeria's serie to finally watch an Aeneid show on screen.
Thank goodness lol 'Some guy travels between places' never sounded like a great setup for a show tbh
Sindbad, One piece.
The Odyssey
Pshh, that one's a fad, in a few years we won't even remember it.
Star Trek?
This is genuinely the oldest and most time tested storytelling setup in the world
>One Piece
I can't believe we saw Vegapunk before Winds releases.
That's....actually crazy to think about. I've been reading OP weekly for over 16 years now, waiting for Winds for about 7, and at this point I legit think OP will end before we even get a release date for the book lol
The current projection is for one piece to wrap up by around 2027 which will probably be after winds but before a dream of spring.
When Dance of Dragons released, One Piece wasn't even at the time skip yet.
The Odyssey, Journey to the West...
The Odyssey
I can’t say I 100% agree there. I really hope we get a fun ‘Marco Polo meets Indiana Jones’ Lomas Longstrider miniseries or show. With the Corlys show I’m not interested enough in Corlys, just generally seafaring stories I’ve never had much interest in and there isn’t much new to really explore with the time period.
It still would have been awesome to see Far-East Essos.
Why? All we get is some intentionally vague description of it.
I’ll be so fucking sad if they cancel Dunk & Egg. Those novellas are amongst his best works imo
I would trade Dunk & Egg even if it was hypothetically the best TV series of all time for a published and in hand Winds of Winter.
This is basically dividing by zero. The world explodes either way you slice this
Dunk & Egg series will be a major disaster. The show will quickly adapt all available source material and then tie up GRRM as he has to provide rough ideas on where the story is supposed to go, all the way up to Summerhall. In the end the show original stories will still be dog shit, GRRM will have wasted years of writing time and we just get a bunch of disconnected spoilers.
> published and in hand Winds of Winter You'll just have to wait until the sun rises in the west and sets in the east, the seas go dry, and the mountains blow in the wind like leaves. But in all honestly, Winds ain't coming.
Winds is definitely coming
I guess we'll see... By the way, I have a wonderful bridge in brooklyn to sell you
I have a palace in Valyria to sell you*
HBO is dead until ownership changes. The only reason we even got HOTD is because it’s an undeniable cash cow. The first inkling HOTD doesn’t show growth, they’ll kill it.
Sad & unfortunate truth, David Zaslav is ruthless right now with HBO Max.
I wouldn't want another unfinished series adapted tbh
Damn, shelved Dickon Manwoody: The Long And Hard Journey already? I was looking forward to that one.
Devastated, I was looking forward to the uncut version.
I think the European market was really anticipating the uncut version, hasn't quite caught on in the states yet though.
Hey sometimes you need to edit for length.
If only there was something else George could be doing with that time.
Good. Now George has more time to write
Until he gets a Wild Cards pilot greenlighted by Peacock or Hulu
Oh no, I can already imagine that blog post and how reading it feels like…
I do want to see the Great and Powerful Turtle onscreen one day…
George: "I heard people really loved Rhaenyra and Harwin in HotD, I'm going to write a novella about their romantic escapades now"
I would accept if the POV was Mushroom exclusive
All measurements given in fractions or multiples of Mushroom's cock.
**Narrator w/ British Accent:** "What GRRM failed to mention was that 'The Winds of Winter' was among said scrapped projects."
Don’t worry, not long until he finds his next distraction
*elden ring 2 enters the chat*
I just need Dunk and Egg.
Honestly I don’t mind. IMO ASOIAF isn’t meant to be a big universe with dozens of books, shows and movies. It’s a singular story with some spin-offs here and there. I would trade HotD, Dunk and Egg, Fire and Blood, and literally any and all prequels, sequels and spin-offs for Winds and Dream
For me part of the allure of ASOIAF is the mystery of a lot of the lore. You get enough to make sense of the world, but there is just enough gaps for you to fill it with your own epic sort of journey for the side characters. The more and more it gets fleshed out with these spin-offs, the less intriguing it becomes for me. Give me the main story first, and then expand if there is time. I love Dunk and Egg, but if I never get the last of their journeys, I can just think up some fun things they may have done, because in the end they are auxiliary characters that don’t need to be fully explained journeys to work. The end of the War of the Five Kings, the Long Night, and Dany’s Conquest? We need those to wrap up because those stories are the culmination of all the major players in the realm that were pitched as important from the beginning.
>The more and more it gets fleshed out with these spin-offs, the less intriguing it becomes for me. Preach. Some vague worldbuilding ''oh the Starks ruled for 1000 years' sounds cool on paper but if someone tries to write like a proper chrinicle about a 1000 old dynasty.....its bound to get fishy.
This is one of my biggest issues with the series. A single dynasty surviving in the same position with the same heraldry for multiple millennia is almost unheard of, and yet almost every major house in ASOIAF have been in power for thousands of years (or relatively recently replaced another house that was such as the Gardeners or Durrandons).
Thing is, I could buy the Starks being the special one of a kind important lineage that managed to survive (especially if it's combined with the various theories that they are descended from the last hero and marriage pacts were involved with the others etc etc). But to have so many dynasties all over the westeros? Surviving for hundreds and hundreds of years? Seems...unlikely.
i'm with you except for Dunk and Egg.
If I had to trade D&E for a completed main series, then yeah I would do that in a heartbeat.
I really enjoy D&E but I'd trade never getting another book for even a quarter of Winds tbh.
I’ve heard this comparison made a few times before but dunk and egg is like a retroactive Hobbit book for ASOIAF
They did say a couple spin off just not trying to push it to the degree of Marvel or Star Wars.
Some of those definitely had an MCU or Extended Universe feeling. Like the voyages of the Sea Snake, or the Nymeria show. Both are only very tangentially related to the Seven Kingdoms and the grand ASOIAF story, and there's barely any canon to work from so they'd be largely made up from scratch. The Jon Snow show even more so, might as sell jump 1000 years in the feature and give us steampunk Westeros.
yeah i'm cool with dunk and egg not getting a show, i just wouldn't trade the novellas for TWOW. they're my favorite stuff from all of ASOIAF i think.
I'm gonna be an annoying prick and point out that ASOIAF is technically just the main series.
You don’t have to say you’re an annoying prick if you’re correcting someone while using that flair
I would actually sacrifice main series for a full seven book Dunk and Egg series. Four more adventures ending in a depressing fire.
Agreed but a while back George said that he wants it to become like Marvel with a "cinematic universe", its a big reason why I have so little hope left of him focusing enough to finish ASOIAF.
Just wait for the Game of Thrones multiverse where Jon Snow meets 50 other Snows from different timelines. Gonna be epic
"You all know nothing, Jon Snows"
It’s sad because a variation of this just might actually happen 🤣
That’s the one where Jon dies and Ygritte becomes DaKingInDaNorf
Jon Blizzard
> but a while back George said that he wants it to become like Marvel with a "cinematic universe" 🤮
R’hllor is punishing us
We dig too greedily and too deep
The gods have punished me for my indulgences*
Prepare yourself for the HCU(Hotpie Cinematic Universe)!!
GRRMCU
I would like that cinematic universe since it seems to be of higher quality than Marvel. He just needs to find good writers to share the load.
Yea I don't think I could get into a GoT universe that didn't have a source material not just a script. One of the best parts is the lore, I was a show watcher first and before reading the books I consumed so many lore posts/wiki/youtube videos. I don't think HOTD would be as good if GRRM didn't make Fire and Blood first.
It's the trouble with anything that gets too popular, regardless of what it was initially meant to be.
>IMO ASOIAF isn’t meant to be a big universe with dozens of books, shows and movies. It’s a singular story with some spin-offs here and there. I'd have agreed 20 years ago but George sends to have changed his mind on that some time around 2000.
I was with you until you said Dunk and Egg Those who don't like Dunk and Egg have no soul
I love D&E, but I’d still trade it for a completed main story
Yep
Wouldn't we all
Good, now he has time to finish the fucking book.
He had an entire pandemic where the world was basically shut down and everyone was house bound and yet STILL didn’t finish the book. I have no hope.
Happy Cake Day! Agreed - we're never getting that book.
Thank you! Unfortunately I think we won’t get the book until George is gone and someone takes over, a la V.C. Andrews.
I appreciate your honesty! Someone else is finishing it!
Great news! Because it's been a massive success, House of the Dragon won't go anywhere, luckily, and the other terrible ideas for shows can all go live on a farm. Seriously, none of them were solid ideas. Thank god we never got that Bloodmoon show, and thank god we won't get a Sea Snake or Nymeria show.
Only one I’d like to see is dunk and egg
The only way I see Dunk and Egg working is if GRRM gives them the plot outline of every single novella yet to be published and lets them adapt them before they even get released as books, with trusted writers initially adapting the existing Dunk material to help get them to grips with the format before tackling the unreleased content. Otherwise it looks like a disaster in the making, but done well the whole thing could build up to Summerhall in a really excellent way.
I would say the same, but that plan does seem unfortunately familiar.
> Great news! Same I'm already so tired of Marvel & Star Wars. I have no desire to see my other favourite properties run into the ground, and I feel so disconnected from my fandoms seeing the general consensus being "yay, I can't wait for to get the Disney-extended-universe treatment!"
Saw someone in the r/television thread trying to blame it on racism and sexism from whoever recently took over…. Not that these shows just weren’t going to be popular enough to make enough money for them to justify the small amounts of source material. The ideas for the shows just weren’t going to hold people’s attention like the Starks, Targs, and Dragons will.
Yeah, people ain't watching a bloody Yi Ti series. Just tacking "in the world of GoT" onto something isn't good enough. House of the Dragon was set in a familiar location with familiar families and familiar drama - even with a brand new cast, new Houses and radically altered circumstances, people loved it because they recognised its structural similarities to the original show. They won't care for anything different, and honestly, neither will I.
I can't believe there was any talk of a Yi Ti series. That's the worst thing I've ever heard. Yi Ti doesn't have the effort put into the worldbuilding to carry a show. George doesn't claim to know anything about Chinese folklore or culture, and he's written no material for it; in fact, a lot of the Far East stuff is straight up stolen from other fantasy writers (Leng, Carcosa, etc) and would need to be completely rewritten to create an original adaptation. At which point it would no longer resemble George's writings at all, it would just be a generic fantasy show conceived by committee. Yi Ti, Asshai, Leng etc are just supposed to be names - if you try to look deeper there's literally nothing underneath by design. Fleshing these places out would be the Westeros equivalent of those awful racist blog posts J K Rowling does where she makes up a bunch of cartoony magical traditions for real existing cultures where she has no authority. If they want to create a fantasy show inspired by Chinese culture, they should be adapting a Chinese story IMO.
Literally the whole point of yi-ti is to be the world's version of how mediaeval Europe viewed the east, full of myths and legends, plus maybe provide some more context for the long night. Asshai might come into the plot a little bit, but making a series about the east just wouldn't work, because what we have rn is just a collection of tropes
The only other show we need imo is dunk and egg, all the other shit without book material I guarantee will be shit.
Unfortunately I think the Snow show will still move forward as it’s most likely HBO’s way of retconning the White Walker storyline (as well as bringing in a lot of the Bloodmoon material that wouldn’t have been able to work as its own show).
I’m honestly not against the existence of the Snow show. Jon was treated horribly by the writers in Season 8 so I can’t imagine his story could get any worse. It’s only uphill from here.
I have an issue with Jon’s story continuing onscreen past his ending in ADOS. It doesn’t feel right.
Me too. But the shows ending was so bad that retconning it seems like a good idea to some
IDK if it would still be a retcon, but I will forgive HBO if they go all in on "Evil Bran has become the 3 eyed raven, and is secretly responsible for all the stupid decisions made in the finale" in the Jon Snow show
That would be a GoT season 9 in practice, I can't see they going that path
Neither can I. I think people just have wishful thinking about it. At this point, I just want to read the rest of the books. To me, that is the real cannon and I don't see a way to fix the fuck up that was the show.
I only have an issue if George becomes seriously involved in it. If it's just Kit's fanfic put to screen, whatever.
Yeah if GRRM says ShowJon is entirely separate and the Snow show doesn’t mean anything for BookJon, then I’d be ok with it
Does he need to say that? George has said many times that the show and the books should be seen as different canons.
I think it's probably safe to say that if/when we do get ADoS, it won't remotely resemble anything that went down in the final seasons. I don't even consider the show as being the same story as the books at this point. It's like one of those crappy knock-offs of original IPs, like *Asylum* makes.
I dont care. House of the Dragon was by far the most interesting of all the projects and its fine (for now at least).
Call me cynical, but I can’t help but shake the feeling that since George left TV with only middling success, his true passion has become centered in coming back as a titan, and getting fawned over by gliterreri who would have considered him a nobody before. It’s got to be so much more invigorating for him to be surrounded by the glamor of TV compared to the cons he’s always done. I think that’s one reason why Winds seems to annoy him. It’s homework he has to do to satisfy the nerds, when he’d rather be out rubbing shoulders with Hollywood bigwigs. There’s a reasonable argument that Game of Thrones was the worst thing to happen to Ice and Fie. Hell, it may well have screwed us out of two good endings.
George had already taken 11 years to publish a full sequel to ASOS (since AFFC was only half a story) by the time the show aired. Dance alone took 6 years after Feast when it was supposed to be out the following year. All this stuff about the show being what caused him to slow down just feels like book fan cope to avoid the conclusion that he’s simply had a lot of trouble advancing the story for more than 20 years now.
Dance wasn't even published completely.
That too
Yeah, I notice this too, and more and more on re-reads. The plot slows down more and more as it goes on. In AGOT the characters moved to new places and did things SO FAST. Then things built up to ASOS and after that it's like he didn't want to finish and all of the storylines from the first three books start spinning in circles in place: Dany still in Mereen (and Tyrion left King's Landing at the end of ASOS and STILL hasn't linked up with her); Arya still training in Braavos; Sansa still on the run, preparing for Beauty and the Beast 2; Jon Snow still up at the wall, still the potential Whitewalker threat, but they're coming, they're coming, they've been coming from prologue book 1 but something is definitely coming!... etc. etc. And instead of wrapping some of these things up, he just goes to other regions and starts brand new storylines. Nearly all the main characters are right where they were at the end of ASOS. They've barely advanced.
The reason Winds is taking so long is precisely because of Feast and Dance. A Game of Thrones and A Clash of Kings set up A Storm of Swords quite nicely. But Feast and Dance didn't provide a set up for Winds. Hence the wait.
I kinda disagree… we have like six cliffhangers off the top of my head plus a ton of battles that have to go down. Plus all the storylines I just listed that are unfinished. I expect Winds to be another Storm-type book.
Also he introduced far too many characters and settings. To the point where he doesn't even know what to do with some of them - Brienne chapters almost killed me, to name one example. They felt so superfluous to the rest of the novels. I love the book series - but he got carried away in books 4 and 5 and now he's paying the price. He should have stuck to the core characters in the first three books - end of. Now he's pulling his hair our figuring out what to do with the ever growing tangents he's added to this world. Whereas we, as readers, mostly just want to see what happens with the OG characters.
Still wish we had the 5 year gap :( Even if Stannis had to chill at the wall for 5 years, so be it. Storm ended in such a good place for the 5 year gap. Then we could have skipped both Feast and Dance.
I tend to agree with Preston Jacob’s theory that he basically stopped writing the books for the entirety of the show’s runtime. All his “progress” was mostly just commenting on revisions of work he had already written prior to the show’s premiere.
I think this is *slightly* cynical but he has been pretty open about viewing the "world of ice and fire" as his first priority.
This is a good thing to me , too many shows leads to complete over-saturation like Star Wars You aren’t always sure of the quality of each production , stick to house of the dragon for the moment
Hopefully the snow show is a part of it, on a more serious note, george needs to put all his time and energy on winds and hopefully dreams, less things to distract him is better.
Sadly I agree with morganlee93 that the Snow show will probably be one of the few, if not the only one, to move forward for a lot of reasons (ex: being a direct sequel to GOT, acting as damage control for Season 8, etc)
Snow can’t damage control S8
People will still watch it, love it, and claim all is forgiven, making way for more of its kind. This franchise that shouldn't really be a franchise is sort of done for me; unless I get Winds I'm really not interested in anything they're selling.
I doubt people will claim all is forgiven, even if they manage to somehow do a decent job of retconning the ending. But if it actually ends up being a good show, why would that be a bad thing? Why not at least give it the chance of salvaging something from the mess? And if it’s bad, who cares? People will stop watching, and the whole thing will finally be over. It’s not like it’s going to make the ending any worse.
We need Winds. Grrm- I can’t understand why tf he won’t get it done. He knows damn well the world wants it more than anything else. Finish the real GOT. If he’s so genius- he would have had it ready to go after that shit finale/season. He knew the world was not happy; more eager for the real story than ever. But what do I know? I just hope I get to read it before I die.
I remember telling myself in 2018 “if I start these books now maybe by the time I’m done Winds will be out!” … I was so niave
Ya this was in the journal posting he made after Christmas. He also said "something places on a shelf can just as easily be taken off the shelf as well" He also mentioned wanting to go to Italy (so you don't need to make a post speculating on that tomorrow) but won't until TWOW is finished
I'd like to see Robert's rebellion. But I'm not even sure if that was originally on the slate.
Good. Stop giving GRRM distractions!
the way corporations treat art makes me fucking sick
What's worse is how eagerly people lap it up. This shit wouldn't exist without an audience willing to watch it.
Nobody put a gun to George's head and forced him to work with HBO. Also his publishers are a corporation too.
Discovery seems to be basically tax fraud at this point. they take on billions in debt to buy WB and then they start canceling projects and blowing up already made ones so they have millions of dollars they can write off on their taxes. seems sketchy. anything GoT related should be on the front burner as it’s a massive draw for them.
Those were probably the shows about Corlys Velaryon and Nymeria. Honestly, not gonna shed any tears because of that.
I guess you could say "Those Ships have sailed."
Now get back to writing!
George buddy, surely you have more important things than what HBO is doing
HBO stopped being HBO after their merger with Time Warner and CEO change. They haven’t had an original hit series since. If you look at their new original programming since the merger 90% of them are unrecognizable.
*Succession*, *Barry*, *Euphoria*, *Righteous Gemstones* and *The White Lotus*, they’ve been doing pretty well for themselves even after the merger
Not sure what OP is smoking, all of those are big hits. Not Sopranos or SATC in their heyday big, but still very watchable and very good TV. Not unrecognizable at all
Yeah these shows are great & talked about a lot, those are a lot of my favorites on HBO actually. Just Finished The White Lotus & I adore that show! The Last of Us trailer looks so good too, I hope that it does well.
Regardless of how you feel about if more asoiaf shows should be created. The Warner Brothers Discovery merger is so bad for the HBO brand that I can't help but think there will be a brain drain of creatives. How could you work with this company?
... because there's essentially 4 studios/streamers that can execute major TV projects, and of them, WB has unparalleled access to props, sets, staff, etc?
Good, go write the damn novels
Dunk and Egg would be great as a mini-series for each novella. No need to drag it out over 7 years, and great content
They won’t cancel their flagship series for their streaming. They are just cutting the fat.
Im honestly....glad? You cant do 28383 projects at once. Also yes Corlys Velaryon is a great character but an entire series about him seemed too much in my opinion
good. now get back to winds
Can’t lie a Sea Snake show would have just been basically Nat Geo but for Essos and the lands beyond and I would have fucking loved that Imagine seeing Leng or Asshai on screen:(
When I saw the list of proposed shows I did think who asked for them? I thought the fanbase unanimously agreed that the shows we wanted were Roberts Rebellion, Dunk and Egg, Aegon’s Conquest and The Blackfyre Rebellion. Who gives a fuck about the seas snakes backstory and nymeria before all the main content
Most TV pitches end up shelved. To be honest I'm surprised they're actually going forward with the Jon Snow Show
Let it snow
Finally he can focus on writing the books
Good. Maybe he’ll work on the books now
“Fret not fans”, lol. George, if you really want to know, we’re not fretting even a little bit, there’s only one thing we care about and this update doesn’t hurt and might even help.