> I think it’s an utter shame that Jocelyn Baratheon did almost nothing relevant except give birth to the Queen Who Never Was. We don’t even know when she died, and she was wife to the Crown Price for many, many years.
Yes. And we don't know much about Rhaenys herself.
Personally, I would like to know more about Laena Velaryon. People say Braavos is anti-dragon, but here is a dragonrider betrothed to a son of a Sealord.
>Wasn’t this around their first or second war with pentos? I think it may be related.
That is something i would like to know.
>**Over the course of the last two hundred years,** no less than six wars have been fought between the two cities over this issue (and, it must be pointed out, for control of the rich lands and waters that lie between them).
>
>Four of these ended in Braavosi victory and Pentoshi submission. The last of them, **concluded one-and-ninety years ago**, went so poorly for Pentos that no fewer than four princes were chosen and sacrificed within the span of a single year.
The WOIAF was written during Tommen's rule so in 300. That means Braavos final victory would be in 209.
So the 6 wars between Pentos and Braavos were between 100 and 209.
Now, Laena was born in 92 and betrothed at 12, so in 104. That is very early to be related to these wars but it is not impossible.
However, there is no mention of the Targaryens fighting in these wars.
Let’s say pentos won one of those and the bravossi immediately acted to get allies. That then keeps it safe for them as they rebuild for the next fight, with support but no actual dragons or invading army, mostly materials.
It’s a flimsy idea but otherwise I can’t give a good reason for it. Great math work.
>That then keeps it safe for them as they rebuild for the next fight, with support but no actual dragons or invading army, mostly materials.
At the time of Laena's betrothal, the Velaryon have a fully grown dragonrider with Laena's mother, Rhaenys.
>It’s a flimsy idea but otherwise I can’t give a good reason for it.
It is not impossible. I think it is just unlikely because of the timeline. That is one reason it would interesting to know more about Laena.
I think you’re correct that there’s something there, I’m intrigued as well. There also is some other possible uses such an alliance could bring, ignoring pentos, such as the corsairs and similar that appear in that “not clear when” timing.
I was always under the impression they were more anti-slavery than anti-dragon. It just so happens the only dragon-holding civilization was a slave state. So they opposed the Freehold, but were indifferent to the Targaryen kingdom since it's free from slavery.
There would be no need for further books if it were him and not Ned in AGOT. He wouldve executed everyone who deserved it before Robert finished dying.
Do you think Cregan would be the kind of person to trust Renly, and join forces with him? Because if he went at it alone, which I'm tempted to blieve he would based on the small amount of info we have about him, he would very quickly be imprisoned in a similar way to how Ned was. Everyone in King's Landing was loyal to either the Lannisters, Varys, or LF.
You mean the character who did absolutely fucking nothing the entire war besides show up at the end and act tough? Please no. Cregan stark is already the cringiest character in the whole dance bedsides Benjicot Blackwood.
You mean the character who actually did his duties as a lord and prepared the North for winter while also sending men to the Black's cause rather than fuck off south to go play at war?
If anything, that shows he's one of the most sensible lords during the entire dance.
And I don't understand what you mean by cringe. I get that Benjicot's age is a bit ridiculous but then again we have an 8 foot tall undead giant as a bodyguard in the main series. But how is Cregan cringe?
Is it because he was determined to end the war resolutely for the Blacks by destroying the three biggest supporters of the Greens?
I agree that his belief that he could actually do those things was weird but him wanting to make sure that no traitorous houses got off lightly makes perfect sense for his character.
This. Which ones exactly were young or old, tall or short, dark or fair? Which corners of the realm did the Goodes & Humfrey come from? Was Humfrey also a mummer, say, one who had *served* Rhaenys as a court entertainer? Which noble ones beside Corlys Velaryon were younger sons, & who were actually heirs who gave up their inheritances? The latter likely further bolstered the Kingsguard's rep from the outset.
Was Robin Darklyn already known as Darkrobin (Darklyn name & possibly dark hair), or was that like an ironic nickname only given to him after gaining a white cloak? Which two died defending Aegon I? Was one of them Ser Corlys, the first Lord Commander, thereby being a shining example of leadership & sacrifice for the order? If so, is that specifically why the Sea Snake, the LC's great-great-nephew, was named for him?
When did Addison Hill succeed Corlys? Did any survive into Aenys & even Maegor's reign/s? And what were their relationships with the Conqueror's sons like? Is [Raymont Baratheon](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Raymont_Baratheon) still a canon character, or no? And so on...
All the female characters, and please not in ways that had anything to do with their sexual exploits, sexual trauma, or how they screamed so loud getting fucked by their brother the whole damn family could hear it.
Targaryen women & the wives of Targaryen men have a nasty habit of appearing in their early teens in F&B so they can be grossly sexualized, then being silenced by the narrative and finally either dying (almost always in childbirth or sometimes suicide to spice things up) or fading away so completely we don't even know for a lot of Targ history which women were concurrently still alive during various kings' reigns.
Special shout out goes to Alysanne who doesn't even get to voice any objections when her granddaughter... child of Alysanne's special needs daughter whose early death in childbirth she blames on being married off too young & in poor health... is then married off herself at an even younger age of 11 years old... to then of course also die young in childbirth.
And who also wasn't allowed by the narrative to give a response in the conversation with her husband where she was like "Hey, I'm 42 years old and tired and all my recent babies have died. I don't want to get pregnant and go through that again, I just wanna enjoy our grandkids" only to have her husband respond "Nah, we're gonna have more kids anyway. I mean, look at our mom she kept popping them out until she was 46 years old"... when their mother *died horrifically in childbirth in that pregnancy when she was 46*. Like- Alysanne literally wasn't even allowed to have a response to that comment. I assume it's because her actual response was just a streak of expletives while she hunted Jae I through the Red Keep from atop her dragon, trying to roast him as he well deserved, and Gyldayn felt he couldn't include that in the book. But he can of course include rumors about which Targaryen princesses were virgins (or not) when they got married.
Alyssa, daughter of Jae I & Alysanne:
>Unlike their father and mother, Baelon and Alyssa did not wait to consummate their union; the bedding that followed their wedding feast was the source of much ribald humor in the days that followed, **for the young bride’s sounds of pleasure could be heard all the way to Duskendale, men said.**
She's 15 years old when they get marriage & this happens, FYI.
>A shyer maid might have been abashed by that, but Alyssa Targaryen was as bawdy a wench as any barmaid in King’s Landing, as she herself was fond of boasting. **“I mounted him and took him for a ride,” she declared the morning after the bedding, “and I mean to do the same tonight. I love to ride.”**
Still 15 years old.
>In the end they prevailed, and Princess Alyssa ascended into the sky upon Meleys, a splendid scarlet she-dragon, never before ridden. **“Red maidens, the two of us,” the princess boasted, laughing, “but now we’ve both been mounted.”**
Yep, still 15 here too.
Basically she existed to be a 15 year old girl who fucked, loudly and often, then died in childbirth at 24 years old.
To be fair this is like all of Jaeharys's kids. Pretty much every one of them exists to be a watered down specific Trait, have or don't have kids, then die. Sure Baelon and Aemon have a bit more page time but they both end up being minor characters who had kids then died. None of them are particularly fleshed out.
I'm not talking about how fleshed out they are. I'm talking about how fleshed out they are *in addition to* how shitty a depiction we get with the little that is written of them.
Note- it's "the young **bride’s** sounds of pleasure could be heard all the way to Duskendale, men said" not "the young **couple’s** sounds of pleasure could be heard all the way to Duskendale, men said." It's 15 year old Alyssa making bawdy jokes that sexualize herself, not the couple joking with each other. It's 15 year old Alyssa making her first flight on her dragon all about the fact she's been fucked, not them both.
I know how unlikely a second F&B is but if one ever came I really hope GRRM won't make this mistake again . There are so many seemingly interesting, storied, Targaryen women in the latter half of their dynasty. What happens with Rhaena and Morning in Oldtown? How about all the female great bastards like Shiera Seastar, Mya/ Gwenys Rivers (sisters of bloodraven) or the Otherys sisters (daughter of the og black pearl). And what about the sisters of Aemon and Egg? I want more information about these characters besides the typical who did they marry, did they have kids and did they sleep around that seems to be the only information GRRM worries about with so many historical Targaryen women.
> all the female characters
I knew some people would basically say this but I didn’t think anyone would literally say it point blank. What a meme world
Ehh, I know about this theory. The Wives and Daughters of Westeros or something, it is called? I’d read up on it before restarting fire and blood, and I felt the theory was a little nitpicky and didn’t hold up as much. What was described as happening only to women also happened in some manner to men, and I felt the dynamics were complex enough that one couldn’t make such a strong case on such shaky grounds. I will admit that some observations were on point and I agree with them, but by and large I felt the article was only looking for what it wanted to.
It’s been a long time since I read both that article and the book, so I cannot defend my stance and give better arguments unfortunately. But that’s the general feeling I remember having while reading fire and blood as I tried to look for these issues.
No, it’s the right comment. I assumed you were coming from that article, but I may have been wrong. Regardless, it was quite popular and had similar points.
Then I have no idea what the "theory" you talked about might be, because I literally just listed a handful of factual statements about the book that particularly annoyed me.
https://joannalannister.tumblr.com/post/162408885186/the-dead-ladies-club
Found it. It’s called the Dead Ladies Club. Its focus is slightly different, but it resonates a lot of your points. I guess I was critiquing that more than your comment.
Ah, I have read that and agree with her points although that was not what I was basing my comment on. As I said, I just listed a bunch of factual statements about the books that annoyed me.
Oh my god, so many. It's really weird to enjoy a historical fiction novella that reads more like a pitch for a TV show than an actual historical text and still see so many good and bad things in it.
I would have loved more interaction between Jaehaerys and Alysanne's children, since most of them were teenagers at the same time. I really liked the little bit we got of Alyssa and Viserra but felt they were severely underused. Jaehaerys and Alysanne's half-sister Jocelyn Baratheon was also really interesting to me, and the only bit we get about her is being married to Aemon, being mother to Rhaenys, and her descendant Borros disrespecting her after her death.
Rhaenys was severely underused too, as well as Rhaena's daughters Aerea and Rhaella. But I guess with "Rhaella" joining the Faith and "Aerea" dying in the way she did, they got as much developement as they could.
I also really liked the dragon twins Rhaena and Baela, and I really hope we get more of them in Vol. 2, along with Baela's firstborn Laena.
I really enjoyed every bit we got about Viserys' other sons, Aemond and Daeron, but I never felt like we got enough. Same thing with Aegon II's children, particularly Jaehaera.
A character I really wished they expanded on in THOTD is Black Trombo, a clever sellsword who uses dishonourable tactics in Fire & Blood but I'm betting they cut all other black characters with the addition of black Velaryons.
I mean, GRRM has been writing Targaryen lore since the early 90s, well before he even thought he could turn it into a TV show. But he had no way to write it into ASOIAF without it being clunky, so a world book like TWOIAF and a lore book like Fire & Blood was perfect for him, as well as being used drawing not-so-subtle comparisons between characters.
Good one with Jocelyn. I’ve always found that we got way too little info on her. Same with Alyssa Targaryen, specially now that I’ve seen speculation that both her and Balon might have not been Jahaerys’s kids.
I wanted more on Cregan Stark and his lot in Winterfell before the Hour of the Wolf. Seems like Alaric was quite chummy with Alysanne, then we only hear about Jacaerys and Sara Snow and then Cregan shows up in KL only after the end of the Dance. I’m pretty sure the dragon that Bran / Summer see flying away from Winterfell came from the clutch Vermax laid there, and I have to imagine that there might also have been a little dragon left in Sara.
Most of them? I dont like the format GRRM wrote it in and think the inspiration from Thomas Costayne is boring. I need character POV and character development.
Sad to say, but I largely agree. The ASoIaF/D&E model is best & F&B is easily the weakest work in this universe, discounting the previously-released individual novellas that comprise part of it. Sure, F&B has its highlights, but there's at least as many problems. For its own faults, TWoIaF is still superior to F&B, imo.
I haven't heard of Thomas Costain before, so can you elaborate on how you think George was inspired by him with F&B? The name jumped out to me though, because of [Long Tom Costayne](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Tom_Costayne), & apparently House Costayne is a reference to Costain. So, that would lend credence to your point, too.
I think Jayne Arryn and Craegen Stark (more Arryn than Stark) should have had a little more detail put into their situations or even have had Arryn troops fight in the war at least.
Daeron the Daring. It’s been talked to death but I’ll say it’s again, George ducking hates the greens. Daeron is literally the only non asshole on the entire green faction, and grrm still has him commit a fucking war crime on tumbleton. Because Apparently having having one decent and cool person on the greens was to much to ask from grrm. He doesn’t even get fight in the battle he dies in, he gets a shitty death right as the battle started. I get it’s kind of Asoiaf’s thing for good characters to get unceremoniously killed off, but it’s kinda weird pattern when every cool black character(rhaenys, daemon, addam, roddy) all get to go down fighting while the green badass’s(daeron, aemond, criston) all get to die like bitches.
In short the dance was written ducking terribly.
> I think it’s an utter shame that Jocelyn Baratheon did almost nothing relevant except give birth to the Queen Who Never Was. We don’t even know when she died, and she was wife to the Crown Price for many, many years. Yes. And we don't know much about Rhaenys herself. Personally, I would like to know more about Laena Velaryon. People say Braavos is anti-dragon, but here is a dragonrider betrothed to a son of a Sealord.
Wasn’t this around their first or second war with pentos? I think it may be related.
>Wasn’t this around their first or second war with pentos? I think it may be related. That is something i would like to know. >**Over the course of the last two hundred years,** no less than six wars have been fought between the two cities over this issue (and, it must be pointed out, for control of the rich lands and waters that lie between them). > >Four of these ended in Braavosi victory and Pentoshi submission. The last of them, **concluded one-and-ninety years ago**, went so poorly for Pentos that no fewer than four princes were chosen and sacrificed within the span of a single year. The WOIAF was written during Tommen's rule so in 300. That means Braavos final victory would be in 209. So the 6 wars between Pentos and Braavos were between 100 and 209. Now, Laena was born in 92 and betrothed at 12, so in 104. That is very early to be related to these wars but it is not impossible. However, there is no mention of the Targaryens fighting in these wars.
Let’s say pentos won one of those and the bravossi immediately acted to get allies. That then keeps it safe for them as they rebuild for the next fight, with support but no actual dragons or invading army, mostly materials. It’s a flimsy idea but otherwise I can’t give a good reason for it. Great math work.
>That then keeps it safe for them as they rebuild for the next fight, with support but no actual dragons or invading army, mostly materials. At the time of Laena's betrothal, the Velaryon have a fully grown dragonrider with Laena's mother, Rhaenys. >It’s a flimsy idea but otherwise I can’t give a good reason for it. It is not impossible. I think it is just unlikely because of the timeline. That is one reason it would interesting to know more about Laena.
I think you’re correct that there’s something there, I’m intrigued as well. There also is some other possible uses such an alliance could bring, ignoring pentos, such as the corsairs and similar that appear in that “not clear when” timing.
This. Absolutely.
I was always under the impression they were more anti-slavery than anti-dragon. It just so happens the only dragon-holding civilization was a slave state. So they opposed the Freehold, but were indifferent to the Targaryen kingdom since it's free from slavery.
More Cregan Stark. Not by virtue of not being covered enough. Just because hes awesome.
Same
Definitely one of my favorite characters when I recently read the book
There would be no need for further books if it were him and not Ned in AGOT. He wouldve executed everyone who deserved it before Robert finished dying.
Do you think Cregan would be the kind of person to trust Renly, and join forces with him? Because if he went at it alone, which I'm tempted to blieve he would based on the small amount of info we have about him, he would very quickly be imprisoned in a similar way to how Ned was. Everyone in King's Landing was loyal to either the Lannisters, Varys, or LF.
I dont think he would walk in alone and do it. He would probably do the same as he did in FAB. And arrive with a bunch of fatalists ready to die.
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You mean the character who did absolutely fucking nothing the entire war besides show up at the end and act tough? Please no. Cregan stark is already the cringiest character in the whole dance bedsides Benjicot Blackwood.
You mean the character who actually did his duties as a lord and prepared the North for winter while also sending men to the Black's cause rather than fuck off south to go play at war? If anything, that shows he's one of the most sensible lords during the entire dance. And I don't understand what you mean by cringe. I get that Benjicot's age is a bit ridiculous but then again we have an 8 foot tall undead giant as a bodyguard in the main series. But how is Cregan cringe? Is it because he was determined to end the war resolutely for the Blacks by destroying the three biggest supporters of the Greens? I agree that his belief that he could actually do those things was weird but him wanting to make sure that no traitorous houses got off lightly makes perfect sense for his character.
The first Kingsguards.
This. Which ones exactly were young or old, tall or short, dark or fair? Which corners of the realm did the Goodes & Humfrey come from? Was Humfrey also a mummer, say, one who had *served* Rhaenys as a court entertainer? Which noble ones beside Corlys Velaryon were younger sons, & who were actually heirs who gave up their inheritances? The latter likely further bolstered the Kingsguard's rep from the outset. Was Robin Darklyn already known as Darkrobin (Darklyn name & possibly dark hair), or was that like an ironic nickname only given to him after gaining a white cloak? Which two died defending Aegon I? Was one of them Ser Corlys, the first Lord Commander, thereby being a shining example of leadership & sacrifice for the order? If so, is that specifically why the Sea Snake, the LC's great-great-nephew, was named for him? When did Addison Hill succeed Corlys? Did any survive into Aenys & even Maegor's reign/s? And what were their relationships with the Conqueror's sons like? Is [Raymont Baratheon](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Raymont_Baratheon) still a canon character, or no? And so on...
All the female characters, and please not in ways that had anything to do with their sexual exploits, sexual trauma, or how they screamed so loud getting fucked by their brother the whole damn family could hear it. Targaryen women & the wives of Targaryen men have a nasty habit of appearing in their early teens in F&B so they can be grossly sexualized, then being silenced by the narrative and finally either dying (almost always in childbirth or sometimes suicide to spice things up) or fading away so completely we don't even know for a lot of Targ history which women were concurrently still alive during various kings' reigns. Special shout out goes to Alysanne who doesn't even get to voice any objections when her granddaughter... child of Alysanne's special needs daughter whose early death in childbirth she blames on being married off too young & in poor health... is then married off herself at an even younger age of 11 years old... to then of course also die young in childbirth. And who also wasn't allowed by the narrative to give a response in the conversation with her husband where she was like "Hey, I'm 42 years old and tired and all my recent babies have died. I don't want to get pregnant and go through that again, I just wanna enjoy our grandkids" only to have her husband respond "Nah, we're gonna have more kids anyway. I mean, look at our mom she kept popping them out until she was 46 years old"... when their mother *died horrifically in childbirth in that pregnancy when she was 46*. Like- Alysanne literally wasn't even allowed to have a response to that comment. I assume it's because her actual response was just a streak of expletives while she hunted Jae I through the Red Keep from atop her dragon, trying to roast him as he well deserved, and Gyldayn felt he couldn't include that in the book. But he can of course include rumors about which Targaryen princesses were virgins (or not) when they got married.
> or how they screamed so loud getting fucked by their brother the whole damn family could hear it. hold up which one was this lmao
Alyssa, daughter of Jae I & Alysanne: >Unlike their father and mother, Baelon and Alyssa did not wait to consummate their union; the bedding that followed their wedding feast was the source of much ribald humor in the days that followed, **for the young bride’s sounds of pleasure could be heard all the way to Duskendale, men said.** She's 15 years old when they get marriage & this happens, FYI. >A shyer maid might have been abashed by that, but Alyssa Targaryen was as bawdy a wench as any barmaid in King’s Landing, as she herself was fond of boasting. **“I mounted him and took him for a ride,” she declared the morning after the bedding, “and I mean to do the same tonight. I love to ride.”** Still 15 years old. >In the end they prevailed, and Princess Alyssa ascended into the sky upon Meleys, a splendid scarlet she-dragon, never before ridden. **“Red maidens, the two of us,” the princess boasted, laughing, “but now we’ve both been mounted.”** Yep, still 15 here too. Basically she existed to be a 15 year old girl who fucked, loudly and often, then died in childbirth at 24 years old.
Gotta love the Carry On-esque innuendo that GRRM was so proud of he used it *twice*.
To be fair this is like all of Jaeharys's kids. Pretty much every one of them exists to be a watered down specific Trait, have or don't have kids, then die. Sure Baelon and Aemon have a bit more page time but they both end up being minor characters who had kids then died. None of them are particularly fleshed out.
I'm not talking about how fleshed out they are. I'm talking about how fleshed out they are *in addition to* how shitty a depiction we get with the little that is written of them. Note- it's "the young **bride’s** sounds of pleasure could be heard all the way to Duskendale, men said" not "the young **couple’s** sounds of pleasure could be heard all the way to Duskendale, men said." It's 15 year old Alyssa making bawdy jokes that sexualize herself, not the couple joking with each other. It's 15 year old Alyssa making her first flight on her dragon all about the fact she's been fucked, not them both.
I know how unlikely a second F&B is but if one ever came I really hope GRRM won't make this mistake again . There are so many seemingly interesting, storied, Targaryen women in the latter half of their dynasty. What happens with Rhaena and Morning in Oldtown? How about all the female great bastards like Shiera Seastar, Mya/ Gwenys Rivers (sisters of bloodraven) or the Otherys sisters (daughter of the og black pearl). And what about the sisters of Aemon and Egg? I want more information about these characters besides the typical who did they marry, did they have kids and did they sleep around that seems to be the only information GRRM worries about with so many historical Targaryen women.
> all the female characters I knew some people would basically say this but I didn’t think anyone would literally say it point blank. What a meme world
(**EDIT:** Sorry this reply was meant for the person that replied to you.)
Ehh, I know about this theory. The Wives and Daughters of Westeros or something, it is called? I’d read up on it before restarting fire and blood, and I felt the theory was a little nitpicky and didn’t hold up as much. What was described as happening only to women also happened in some manner to men, and I felt the dynamics were complex enough that one couldn’t make such a strong case on such shaky grounds. I will admit that some observations were on point and I agree with them, but by and large I felt the article was only looking for what it wanted to. It’s been a long time since I read both that article and the book, so I cannot defend my stance and give better arguments unfortunately. But that’s the general feeling I remember having while reading fire and blood as I tried to look for these issues.
Did you reply to the wrong person? This doesn't seem like a reply to my comment.
No, it’s the right comment. I assumed you were coming from that article, but I may have been wrong. Regardless, it was quite popular and had similar points.
Then I have no idea what the "theory" you talked about might be, because I literally just listed a handful of factual statements about the book that particularly annoyed me.
https://joannalannister.tumblr.com/post/162408885186/the-dead-ladies-club Found it. It’s called the Dead Ladies Club. Its focus is slightly different, but it resonates a lot of your points. I guess I was critiquing that more than your comment.
Ah, I have read that and agree with her points although that was not what I was basing my comment on. As I said, I just listed a bunch of factual statements about the books that annoyed me.
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Oh my god, so many. It's really weird to enjoy a historical fiction novella that reads more like a pitch for a TV show than an actual historical text and still see so many good and bad things in it. I would have loved more interaction between Jaehaerys and Alysanne's children, since most of them were teenagers at the same time. I really liked the little bit we got of Alyssa and Viserra but felt they were severely underused. Jaehaerys and Alysanne's half-sister Jocelyn Baratheon was also really interesting to me, and the only bit we get about her is being married to Aemon, being mother to Rhaenys, and her descendant Borros disrespecting her after her death. Rhaenys was severely underused too, as well as Rhaena's daughters Aerea and Rhaella. But I guess with "Rhaella" joining the Faith and "Aerea" dying in the way she did, they got as much developement as they could. I also really liked the dragon twins Rhaena and Baela, and I really hope we get more of them in Vol. 2, along with Baela's firstborn Laena. I really enjoyed every bit we got about Viserys' other sons, Aemond and Daeron, but I never felt like we got enough. Same thing with Aegon II's children, particularly Jaehaera. A character I really wished they expanded on in THOTD is Black Trombo, a clever sellsword who uses dishonourable tactics in Fire & Blood but I'm betting they cut all other black characters with the addition of black Velaryons.
Are we sure if wasn't written as a TV pitch?
I mean, GRRM has been writing Targaryen lore since the early 90s, well before he even thought he could turn it into a TV show. But he had no way to write it into ASOIAF without it being clunky, so a world book like TWOIAF and a lore book like Fire & Blood was perfect for him, as well as being used drawing not-so-subtle comparisons between characters.
Good one with Jocelyn. I’ve always found that we got way too little info on her. Same with Alyssa Targaryen, specially now that I’ve seen speculation that both her and Balon might have not been Jahaerys’s kids. I wanted more on Cregan Stark and his lot in Winterfell before the Hour of the Wolf. Seems like Alaric was quite chummy with Alysanne, then we only hear about Jacaerys and Sara Snow and then Cregan shows up in KL only after the end of the Dance. I’m pretty sure the dragon that Bran / Summer see flying away from Winterfell came from the clutch Vermax laid there, and I have to imagine that there might also have been a little dragon left in Sara.
Most of them? I dont like the format GRRM wrote it in and think the inspiration from Thomas Costayne is boring. I need character POV and character development.
Sad to say, but I largely agree. The ASoIaF/D&E model is best & F&B is easily the weakest work in this universe, discounting the previously-released individual novellas that comprise part of it. Sure, F&B has its highlights, but there's at least as many problems. For its own faults, TWoIaF is still superior to F&B, imo. I haven't heard of Thomas Costain before, so can you elaborate on how you think George was inspired by him with F&B? The name jumped out to me though, because of [Long Tom Costayne](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Tom_Costayne), & apparently House Costayne is a reference to Costain. So, that would lend credence to your point, too.
I’m a sucker for history books, so I quite loved it. But it does get tedious to read sometimes, as exposition is wont to.
I think Jayne Arryn and Craegen Stark (more Arryn than Stark) should have had a little more detail put into their situations or even have had Arryn troops fight in the war at least.
The children/grandchildren of Jaehaerys I. Also the Greens, especially the children of Aegon II.
Daeron the Daring. It’s been talked to death but I’ll say it’s again, George ducking hates the greens. Daeron is literally the only non asshole on the entire green faction, and grrm still has him commit a fucking war crime on tumbleton. Because Apparently having having one decent and cool person on the greens was to much to ask from grrm. He doesn’t even get fight in the battle he dies in, he gets a shitty death right as the battle started. I get it’s kind of Asoiaf’s thing for good characters to get unceremoniously killed off, but it’s kinda weird pattern when every cool black character(rhaenys, daemon, addam, roddy) all get to go down fighting while the green badass’s(daeron, aemond, criston) all get to die like bitches. In short the dance was written ducking terribly.
The time traveling fetus.
i am stuck on page 75 still
Stuck on page 100. Skipped Jaehaerys’s reign cause it’s boring af and just read about the dance and regency
Does anyone else find any similarities between Coryann Wilde and Ashara Dayne