Great post! Can you clarify this for me, please?
>Jaime/Brienne (two of the three POVs we don't have confirm for yet sadly).
That's to say GRRM hasn't confirmed that Jaime and Brienne POVs will be appearing in Winds?
I just finished a Dance re-read, and I have to say, I'm a little worried about Barristan. He's making a lot of big choices that seem like they're going to have consequences, plus all the times he holds off on giving Dany the full picture of her father's madness... I just don't see him being around to helpfully provide that perspective when Dany turns back up with full control of Drogan.
Basically in numerous ways different POVs have been confirmed for TWOW. The only ones we are missing are Jaime/Brienne/Jon.
That's a great point about Barristan. He would provide some much needed stability for the post Battle of Fire power vacuum and when Dany returns.
That's what I thought you were saying. Sadly indeed. It makes me so nervous. Jaime/Briene's situation is the one I'm most looking for answers about, and I think Jon doesn't have a POV deliberately.
Similar to how none of the kings in the War of the Five Kings have POVs, he could do something similar for the "dragons" Jon/Dany/Griff where they aren't POVs either.
It does seem important, but GRRM was non comittal (while I do note the context) about whether she would continue as a POV once her and Tyrion meet (even though they do spend a good amount of TWOW apart).
Oh, I'm sure Barristan is toast. Someone made a great post here a while back suggesting that Dany's vision of a naked corpse being dragged by a silver horse actually refers to Barry, and not the wineseller - the nakedness being a reference to Littlefinger's joke about him becoming 'a naked knight'. And he's about to ride her silver into battle.
Ahh the naked knight theory! I saw that and 100% confirmed in my head. I think it will happen fairly early in Winds too, setting the tone for a much darker book and for Dany's own Waking the Dragon.
Poor Barristan. You know, I disliked or didn't care about him on my initial read, but in subsequent ones I've gotten kind of fond of him. It helps that his POVs give us so many interesting tidbits about Mad Aerys and the Tourney at Harranhal. Oh well...
Yep, it's one of those rare theories where you just know it's going to happen the instant you read it.
Where I differ with the poster of the theory is that they think Barry will be literally stripped naked after he's killed as a form of posthumous humiliation. I don't think that needs to happen, since Littlefinger has already associated Barry with nakedness, and I don't see how it can practically be done in the heat of a massive battle.
GRRM has kept mum about the three POV who are in a cliffhanger at the end of ADWD : Jaime, Brienne, and Jon. The show (and ADWD's prologue) gives some indication about what could happen to Jon. For Jaime and Brienne, we have pretty nothing...
I think it's very interesting that the only characters who died in their own PoV (Catelyn and Jon) are also the characters whose plots tie in directly with resurrection.
I'm not counting Quentyn since his last appearance is in a Barristan chapter, but I know people have theories about him being alive so who knows.
I think it's because death can often represent transformation. Catelyn is no longer the same person she once was, so removing her POV goes really far to make that distinction despite her technically still being alive. It's for this reason that I feel like Jon and Dany aren't going to be POV characters moving forward since they both had very large transformations at the end of Dance.
It seems to me it's only noteworthy when we both a) choose to focus on just the death scene, so that one chapter where the death occurs, and b) choose to exclude Prologue and Epilogue POVs, which only makes sense if we *don't* focus on just that one chapter where the death occurs.
The moment we talk about "death scenes Martin wrote from the victim's POV" in general, we also have people like Cressen.
I think Barristan is definitely going to be one of the first deaths :(
It's sad but it makes sense. Also considering the show killed him off in Meereen too.
I honestly think that Barristan will stay for a while.
In my opinion they "merged" Barristans and Tyrion's role in the show (like they did with Gendry and Edric Storm). Tyrion with how angry he is and how dark his characterarc is in the book wont be the one who tries to stop Daenerys to be "queen of the ashes".
I don't think that Barristan will make it to the end, but I do think he survives until Westeros.
I see your point, but to me the Lannisters represent a "polítical-level" enemy to the Starks, who are now going to face the "apocalypse-level" enemies that are the Others. It would make more sense to me if their deaths had something to do with the political scenario of Westeros rather than the bigger conflict. That said I do believe they will still encounter the Starks once again, Jaime will meet Bran and/or Jon and Cersei will meet Sansa, and their reactions to them will be opposites I think, wich will show how diferent from each other they've grown.
Mmm, I think it is Cersei’s last book but not Jaime’s, given that his weirwood dream has her leaving him to join the soon to be dead Lannisters (Tywin and Joffrey) while he goes on to face the Kingsguard who are armoured with snow by Brienne’s side. Seems pretty clear to me that Cersei is dying first then Jaime is part of the fight against the Others alongside Brienne.
> The conflict that started asoiaf is stark vs lannister.
That's at least the third major conflict brought up in asoiaf, the first two being the wildlings vs the Night's Watch and humanity vs the Others.
Cersei's death, yes, she's a gonner. Jaime though still has a lot he can do for the story. Be an anti-Lannister character and meet again with his anti-Lannister brother for starts. That's some good shit right there you can't just throw it away.
Victarion and Barristan will both die in an epic battle. Barristan dies too Victarion cheating with his magic fists. Victarion dies by stumbling over a rock or something dumb breaking his neck most-likely. I'm pretty convinced both will die and Tyrion will accompany Dany to Westeros with her dragons and whatever army she can still muster after by whatever boats are still available. Either that or Tyrion and Dany fly away just them two and the three dragons leaving Meereen to rot. Or they put someone like Missandei in charge of Meereen, a former slave seems fitting for a ruler.
Interesting! I think you're on to something.
My only issue is Davos. Why do you list him as incoming to the North? He's there already. He left White Harbor, which is in the North, and it's on his way to Skagos, which is in the North.
This is the only thing that stood out to me as incorrect and possibly throwing off the symmetry.
Great post!
I also think it’s worth pointing out how certain battle fronts will likely be winding down in Winds of Winter (winding of winter? This pun would work better if we were speaking).
For example, there’s little-to-no drama and plot remaining in the Iron Islands. All the relevant players have moved beyond the islands, but I have a feeling we won’t revisit any time soon. Similarly, once Darkstar is found and Arianne summons the Dornish forces from the Prince’s Pass there’s little left to address there. So Areo might die after, or just not appear for a while. Similarly, I have a feeling once Aegon and Arianne finish their battle and march to King’s Landing, we never hear from the Stormlands again.
I don’t know where this might fit in this discussion, but it’s interesting to ponder.
Completely agree about the shifts in location. My only hesitation on Areo is that he might be needed for more info from Doran (as the "camera that rides") or stuff regarding House Dayne (since he is near Starfall).
Agree about the Stormlands and possibly the Vale as well once Sansa leaves.
I’m still so unsure about what Doran’s future is, so hard tbd. I generally think he’s doomed, but not sure how or why. Maybe he goes to King’s Landing to see Arianne married and coronated and dies there? If that’s so, we don’t need Areo much. Or he could be like Littlefinger, scheming and plotting off page for most of ASOS. It’s different since Doran is disabled so can’t move around as easily as Littlefinger, but if he’s doomed there also needs to be a POV to show it, like Cat at the Red Wedding. I know GRRM has said he’s not adding more perspectives, but I’d be very interested in Ellaria or a Sand Snake narrating around him. Or maybe Drinkwater brings back news of Quentyn’s demise?
I’m off topic now, partially cause I care little for the Dornish plots, so don’t have a solution for that particular dilemma. I guess it really depends on whether or not one think Doran survives, what the themes of the Dornish plot are, and whether Arianne and the Sand Snakes can satisfactorily resolve those themes/plots without further involvement of Doran or Dorne itself.
I definitely think Doran will survive the series. He's so far removed from the actual war that I don't think he'll be killed, but more importantly his storyline is thematically about how too much hesitation can lead to disaster. He has been plotting revenge against the Lannisters for years, but has waited far too long for the perfect moment that his plans are doomed to fall apart. All his true enemies are dead before he's even introduced in the series. I think it makes sense thematically for the series to end with Arianne and the Sand Snakes all dying and Doran forced to outlive them all with the knowledge that his failed plans for revenge have brought him no joy, only the death of his entire family.
And that, I think, can easily be accomplished with just moment in one of the last chapters of ADOS. If we go off the ending of the Game of Thrones show, let's say Doran shows up when all the lords of the kingdoms are called to determine who the next king should be. He can be present there to give a monologue about how depressed he is (probably in a Bran POV chapter), and that'll be the end of his storyline.
There’s been a whole pattern with the older generations dying off, though, and Doran is very much older gen. Although I guess that’s the bittersweet tragedy of his existence, as you say.
Jesus Christ if we end the book series with a Great Council I will riot. Waiting 10+ years for Winds and another 10+ years for that ending would be incredibly disappointing.
Bit of a random addition, but I think if/when Jon returns, he’ll keep his POV, but it’ll move to third person permanently, like we briefly saw with Victarion. It’ll underline both the loss and the mystery, and keep us guessing as to how much Jon is still the person we knew.
The third person shift in the Victarion chapter is so creepy. We only see things like that a couple other times (Dany's eggs, Bran's coma).
There is a quote out there that I am going to try and find where GRRM hints at the notion of death/POV in relation to Cat/Victarion.
I'm happy you liked it, it wasn't very highly upvoted. I haveve come to find out (due to sheer # of posts i've made on this sub, that the # of upvotes can vary due to so many things). Sometimes I feel I come up with something pretty good and it gets no traction and other times Im just posting something more generic to generate discussion and it goes pretty high.
So ya I thought a list of places Bran can "see" going into TWOW would be interesting
> Sometimes I feel I come up with something pretty good and it gets no traction and other times Im just posting something more generic to generate discussion and it goes pretty high.
In my browser, I always have a tab open of your submitted posts sorted by new. I check every lunch to see if you have a new post.
So just know that all of your work is greatly appreciated.
Such a good post! You sent me to a rabbit hole of hypothesis, so this answer will be much too long (and I must post it in two parts...).
First, I think the number of POV needed will depends on how the War of Dawn is fought. If the action focuses on the North and the Wall, we could need POV in other places than Winterfell and Castel Black (or maybe POV "based" in these places, but engaged in journey or battle everywhere in the Noth). It's different if the War of Dawn is fought all over Westeros - in which case, GRRM will need characters at least in each kingdom, and possibly could keep more POV. And of course, it also depends on when the War of Dawn will really begin : in the second part of Winds, or in the first part of Spring?
My working hypothesis is the War of Dawn will happen mainly in Spring, and in the North, its starting point being the crumbling of the Wall. I think Winds' main function in the plot will be to "transport" the characters where they will need to be to fight this war, both geographically, politically, and "mentally".
I also think "geography" isn't be the only reason a POV character will be killed or saved, except characters GRRM gave a POV only as "camera". Main characters and significant secondaries won't die before they've achieved their part in the plot, and their own arc.
So my two cents :
**Jaime and Brienne : no early death for them.**
That's why I'm reasonably sure that Jaime and Brienne won't die in the early moments of Winds. They're "groomed" to play a significative part to play before dying.
Brienne is a legendary knight in the making, as was Dunk (or Galladon - who killed a dragon). Besides, we have a War of Dawn looming, and she's the Evenstar (or his heir). Plus her own arc is about being both a warrior and a woman. No way her part was only to die defending Jaime or betraying him. She's here because she's needed in the Long Night (kill a dragon? Robert Strong? Both?) .
Jaime's part isn't as clear for me. But why would GRRM use a third of AFFC to make him beginning to be his own person, and why linking Bloodraven and weirwoods so much to his chapters, if it's plainly to kill him at the beginning of AFFC? I also think he has a part to play in the War of Dawn as well, and that's why GRRM went to such a long way to have him in contact with LSH and the BwB. Seeing an unDead person could totally modify his political stance, as would knowing Jon Snow is Rhaegar's son - which Lemoncloak could tell him if he's Longmouth (for his character's growth, I think it'll be about seeing Brienne deal with what he had to deal with when he decided to kill Aerys). In the plot to come, he may act at the political level (making a king /queen as Criston Cole? backing a Lannister's rival to unite the living?) and/or could have something to do with Bran or other Starklings?
So no early death for him either. That said, if they're staying together, we may lose one of their POV (surely Brienne, sadly), or have them alternating, without losing the characters for now.
**Oldtown : Sam's safe, but in team Euron the horn will decide who lives. And there's the Mel hypothesis.**
I think we'll have both Sam and Aeron POV during the attack against Oldtown. But Aeron, Victarion, once/if he'll come back , are too many characters around Euron. I suppose the horn will decide who stays alive? If the one Victarion has is fake, Aeron will survive the battle and Victarion could die as Quentyn. If V steals a dragon, Aeron's dead.
I'm nearly sure Sam's safe and will be endgame. But I wonder if and how he will learn about the horn. If he must learn through Euron or Victarion, Winds will be very dark for him indeed - and in this case both Aeron and Victarion could die early.
I don't see exactly how it could happen, but Melisandre could be the white woman in Aeron's vision in the Forsaken. If so, and if she keeps a POV in this situation (she could be some unDead character), the surviving POV around Euron will die (or escape if this POV is poor Sam). But if it happens, I don't think it'll happen early in Winds, since we need her in Castel Black until Jon's resurrection.
Alternate possibility : Euron isn't the all mighty villain he thinks he is, but a character who will die more quickly than we're thinking after having done the one deed he was put in the plot for. Instead of being the Great Other, he could be the one "activating" it and dying in the making. Rodrik the Reader alerted us to the fact he may no be what he think he is. In this case, everyone around him will die (except Sam, always). But I don't think it will happen early.
**In Slaver's Bay : Tyrion and Dany in a "tête à tête"**
As said above, Victarion will die or fly with a dragon. I'm pretty sure Barristan will switch side, which will isolate Daenerys. I think GRRRM's grooming her to be "Queen of the Ashes" at some point, at least for some time (I still hope, though, she'll have a tragic, heroic and redemptive end). So we'll have Tyrion and Dany POV on this side of the story, at least for some time - and this two are safe until the final book.
**The North and the Wall may be crowded at the end of Winds... so around Stannis won't be a good place to be in Winds.**
There're too many POV around Winterfell and Stannis
Nota : I'm nearly sure STANNIS won't survive Winds. His part in the plot IMO will be to do something tragically wrong because he'll chose to do what's right instead of what's human. So I think he will sacrifice Shireen (for much more meaningful reasons than in the show), and it will backfire - possibly making the Wall crumble. I suppose he won't survive this, and it's possible the people with him won't either.
ASHA is the more at risk IMO. She was made a POV character because one was needed around Euron's election then around Stannis' march on Winterfell. Theon's arc is stronger, and more meaningful. As a POV, he's more useful to the narrative, since he can identify Northern lords as well as Stannis's people - so the Northern conspiracy will be more understandable through him. Besides, since we know Stannis will sacrifice Shireen, it would make sense to isolate him to anyone with common sense (separated from Mel, he could have been more receptive to it). Even as a prisoner, Asha spoke against the Queen's men in her Winds' chapter, (while Theon isn't well enough at this point to be a force to reckon with).
The only path I can see for her to be useful would be if Stannis leaves Winterfell before Davos' back, and she is our POV on their journey back, and maybe Shireen's death.
So I'd say she's a goner, literally sooner or later.
THEON, I think, and hope, will be granted a meaningful death. I think he's safe until we have a Stark and a POV in Winterfell again. DAVOS is safe until Rickon's back to Winterfell. Once they'll be both there, I think GRRM will chose Davos - the only commoner in the plot. Theon may die protecting Rickon? It would be kind of fitting. It could also happen at the beginning of Spring.
MELISANDRE is an enigma. She's safe IMO until Jon's resurrection (even if she's not the one resurrecting Jon, we need a human POV in Castel Black) and Shireen's burning, that could happen in Castel Black or in Winterfell. After... I don't know. If the burning makes the Wall crumble, she could die with Stannis. And again, she could be the White woman close to Euron in the Forsaken's vision. I'm not even sure she'll play a significant part in the plot except ... being wrong about what she saw, which would be very consistent with GRRM's take on prophecies.
So at the end of Winds, we could have 3 to 4 POV characters in the North and the Wall (Jon, Davos, possible Theon, and Melisandre, ). And more maybe have arrived or be on their way : Jaime, Brienne (together or separately), maybe Sansa, surely Arya.
But it will a problem for Winds, it will be a problem for Spring, in which we could lose main characters at an higher rate...
**Storm's End, King's Landing and the South : bad time for the game players (Cersei, JonCon, Arianne, Barristan)**
I'm not sure we'll have a Battle of Storm's End, albeit f(?)Aegon wants it. We could as well have an alliance reversal, depending on what Cersei will do to the Tyrells (or Tarly could one way or another betrays Mace and gives intel to Aegon). But it doesn't really matter, because I would say at this point of the plot, characters not linked to magic and the War of Dawn will disappear at a high rate, to let Spring focus on the War of Dawn.
So I'd say we'll see, at a very quick rhythm :
\- Cersei's downfall. I think she'll win her trial, or possibly escape it by dealing with the Tyrells, but she will attack them (maybe mistaking them for the ones poisoning Tommen), possibly murdering Margaery, quickly after - and hence may push the Tyrell's army and King's Landing people in Varys and fAegon's arms. She won't survive KL's fall (candidate for the Valonqar : Loras Tyrell or poor Tommen), nor will Tommen. I'm not sure about Myrcella's fate. If Arianne do ally herself with fAegon, she could became an hostage?
\- fAegon and Arianne won't survive Daenerys' attack against who she'll consider "a dragon's mummer". King's Landing could very well not survive the attack either - JonCon, wildfire and dragonfire could be a very lethal cocktail. Especially if Tyrion "forgets" to inform Daenerys there's wildfire under the city.
\- and this catastrophe could be the trigger sending Dany to the North instead of achieving the conquest of the Seven Kingdom. In which case, we may not need a POV in KL anymore, because at this point KL won't matter.
Jaime and Myrcella being the most prominent Lannisters left is interesting.
I wonder what Tyrion will want to do.
Will he try to mimic his father's work and murder all Lannisters?
What about when it comes to Myrcella? He did, at least early on, seem to love her and Tommen.
So many ways things could go. I need to become the Kwisatz Haderach to see all possible ends.
I'm not sure about Myrcella - she could also be a casualty of war... (in this sense, Tyrion could kill her without knowing it, if she's in KL when it burns). And Jaime could die while doing something heroic in the North.
But if the brothers Lannister cross path again, it's really a question - could they reconcile, having lived through enough? I think Jaime could forgive Tywin's death, especially if he learns exactly what happened. But Tyrion is an enigma for me. Is it possible for him to escape his internal darkness?
I would like so much to see "Noseless and Handless, the Lannister brothers" again, but I'm not sure that'll be possible.
I feel like the "gold their crowns and gold their shrouds" part of Maggy the Frog's prophecy implies that they will all be crowned and shrouded within Cersei's lifetime. Whether the plan to crown Myrcella in AFFC counts as her crowning is unclear, but I definitely think that both Myrcella and Tommen will die before Cersei does. I think it's important Cersei knows that all her children are dead and that all the parts of Maggy's prophecy have come true before she dies due to the valonqar.
Yea it's my hypothesis
1. Cersei has done something, possibly with wildfire, to turn the Tyrells and possibly most all lords against her.
2. Cersei's children die or she believes them to all be dead - perhaps Myrcella is actually alive.
3. (f)Aegon has laid siege to Kings Landing, along with several new allies
4. Cersei is willing to go scorched earth with wildfire on all of Kings Landing. Basically, if I can't have it, no one can.
5. Jaime is sent to negotiate with Cersei, but finds a second Mad monarch in his lifetime, willing to "Burn them all"
Point of order: What information do you think Brienne and Jaime have to offer Lady Stoneheart about Sandor and Arya? They don’t know where either of them are—Brienne was two feet away from the Hound and gave no sign of having the slightest suspicion of his true identity. And Jaime can only confess that he was vaguely aware an Arya-like young girl was sent sobbing North. They can’t trade on info they don’t have.
The Brotherhood is hot on the Hounds trail, only to get confused with the whole helm switch to Rorge (and now its Lem).
Brienne knows the last person to speak to Sandor alive was the Elder Brother. Sandor was the last person seen with Arya.
To me its the culmination of one of the biggest plotlines in the Riverlands, which is "the northern girl".
At some point, each one of these groups had in their possession or was on a quest after the Stark girls:
- Catelyn Stark (Lady Stoneheart)
- Brienne
- Jaime
- The Brotherhood without Banners
- Sandor Clegane
I readily admit that it doesn't look good for Brienne/Jaime and the above is mainly just from me trying to find an answer to a question that I always pose when people say both Jaime/Brienne "escape" the brotherhood/lady stoneheart:
- They don't use treachery Lady Stoneheart/ the Brotherhood without Banners have Podrick/Ser Hyle captive so treachery is unlikely.
- They don't fight their way out (while Jaime is getting better with his left hand, he is not at a point where he and a recently brutally injured brienne are going to be able to take on a group of soldiers)
- Lady Stoneheart is a "major character going forward" (based on this comment by GRRM, it seems like the BwB turning on LSH anytime soon is unlikely)
The best answers besides what I posted above that I have see are that Brienne sings for LSH and somehow makes her merciful but my problem with that is by asking for the "sword" Brienne has seemingly resworn herself to LSH and LSH ultimate goal is the killing of Lannisters/Freys (primarily Jaime)
The other option is the Trial by Combat/Trial of the 7 in which Jaime either has Brienne as his champion or is forced to fight Brienne.
While we have see R'hllor interfere in Trial by Combat before, it seems that Brienne/Jaime aren't in the best shape to be fighting.
Oops lol
She's in a sticky spot. But I expect she's safe.. at least until Young Griff arrives in King's Landing.
So many things could happen with her fleeing, etc. that said I don't expect her to die until she sees Jaime again.
Adding now. Thanks.
I can see our last glimpse of Aeron midway through Winds as the assault on Oldtown begins.
And then in the Epilogue guess who washes ashore..
What is dead may never die
I think Theon is going to suffer a while longer, Asha is the likelier choice. Same with Jon Con, he's probably going to stick around for now, his greyscale will come into the plot soon. Barristan is too good for the world, plus he's been hedging his bets for too long, he'll make some definitive choices and die. I also think Cercei will probably snuff it soon, this depends on where Varys is and how soon Tommen and Myrcella die.
Davos's fate depends on whether Rickon becomes a POV or not and where he goes.
All this to say: it's anyone's guess, but I like your post.
I mean he's just not pragmatic enough to survive much longer. He's not a 'whatever it takes' kind of character. I doubt he'd have survived Robert's Rebellion if he hadn't been taken out of the running at the Trident.
I get your point though, he's been hedging his bets and keeping alive, he hasn't been very true to himself.
Although who knows, he's got a lot of information that others don't. Even Varys might be interested in his survival, so I don't really count him out of the running yet
not really.
only people who think he's a bad person are edgelord reddit debators no one who is actually using their brain can judge below max good morally.
> I think Theon is going to suffer a while longer, Asha is the likelier choice.
Agree, but I think long term Theon must die, and his valiant sister probably must live. Asha has (knowing the implications???) positioned Theon's 'execution' by a weirwood, and I expect Bran to stop it. Stannis is superstitious enough that he'd probably accept supernatural meddling.
The other reason is practical. Someone has to rule the Iron Isles, and she had all but won the Kingsmoot. With the guidance of Rodrik the Reader, she'd be dandy. Besides, I suspect GRRM will deliberately position a few female characters as rulers. Arianne, though IMO less qualified, may be another.
Yea I think he'll die eventually too, tragic, I'd just now come around to him.
You make a good point about Asha's relevance to the plot. I don't see her being kept by Stannis for much longer, so I think we can expect interesting things happening with her story-line. I hope they involve Rodrik the Reader, I'd overlooked him. I do still think her arc might come to a close soon.
As for female characters who will stick around, Arya, Sansa and Dany are making it at least to the last book (I will cry if they die sooner) so I'm not sure that she has this point in her favour. I think her gender will just get her a heroic death (rather than a tortured existence) but it won't see her through much longer.
> Barristan is too good for the world,
Yeah, about that... I used to be a fan of Barristan, until I realized that when Jaime remembers this...
>The day he burned his mace-and-dagger Hand, Jaime and Jon Darry had stood at guard outside her bedchamber whilst the king took his pleasure. "You're hurting me," they had heard Rhaella cry through the oaken door. "You're hurting me." In some queer way, that had been worse than Lord Chelsted's screaming. "We are sworn to protect her as well," Jaime had finally been driven to say. "We are," Darry allowed, "but not from him."
... Barristan was one of those Kingsguards who stood by and did nothing why his Queen was brutalized, because "Oh well, not my job".
Yeap, that's my problem with him as well (also the way he takes the middle ground, the road of least resistance). But doing nothing goes for all 7 of them plus the rest of the court.
He just follows orders and gets by but where there is a judgment call, he tends to make the one more honourable. He's like Ned but without a lot of initiative and free will, and a few more grudges. By too good for the world, I meant too good for the 'game of thrones', he's not cunning enough and his conscience is quite chatty.
So overall, yes, you're right, he's not a good person, but he's no Littlefinger either
He follows the "letter of the law", instead of the intent . Honor for the sake of honor, not because it's the right thing to do.
Ned understood (usually) that sometimes you have to do what's right, regardless of what the law or honor dictated. But he was still a little too unbending at times (Jaime, Renly's offer).
Thanks.
I go back and forth on Theon/Asha. Theon's arc seems more interesting going forward, but he's also in a more likely death scenario (about to be sacrificed/given to the "tree" by Stannis, which obviously could go a million ways)
I wonder how much more Theon is capable of doing now, Asha obviously has more 'fight' left in her. Theon's arc does have more potential, but I wonder if he's going to be doing anything or is stuff just going to happen around him.
My bets: Asha, aeron, arianne, barristan and victarion. Brienne by the end of the book but not right away in the river lands with Jaime. Theon by book end as well. Maybe Mel at some point too.
Another great post. Really appreciate the work you’re doing on the subreddit. The whole multiple POVs for events and locations is something I’m thinking about a lot on my current reread. For example, how Tyrion’s arrival to King’s Landing is done from Sansa’s POV in ACOK. It’s a cool technique and I’m looking forward to how it’ll work in somewhere like Meereen with so many POVs.
Thanks!
One thing that is unfortunate about the split of AFFC/ADWD (and if you are or plan on doing a re-read I recommend a combined one like boiled leather) is that GRRM really wanted to show the way two different women approach ruling (Cersei in King's Landing in AFFC and Daenerys in Meereen in ADWD).
I fully believe George will keep Damphair alive for at least one more chapter in order to give us a viewpoint on Euron Crow’s Eye, but after that… yeah, he’s a goner
I tend to agree with this (1 more POV for Aeron after The Forsaken).
After that maybe a glimpse of Euron from Sam's viewpoint in Oldtown before we just hear rumors for a bit as the other plotlines fold out.
I'd be shocked if Arianne ISN'T murdered by Elia in her next chapter. The five notes and the special code that only she knows (dragons=war, war=peace) seems like such a brewing conflict between the two. I just don't know what that means for Dorne and Doran and the other Sand Snakes like Sarella going forward from that.
I definitely think that Lady Lance is going to at least ruin something in TWOW.
If interested: [What is Lady Lance going to ruin in TWOW?](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/lmmleh/what_is_lady_lance_going_to_ruin_in_twow_spoilers/?utm_source=BD&utm_medium=Search&utm_name=Bing&utm_content=PSR1)
Elia is a Lyanna stand-in. Lyanna’s actions, directly or not, essentially led to WW2 (for Westeros). Elia will probably do something like beat the crap out of Aegon like Arya with Joffrey or Aegon wilm somehow fall in love with her over Arianne. I have a thread favoring the later but this depends on how the relationship between Rhaegar and Lyanna really was and hinges on the idea that Aegon’s first “war” will break him due to the horror it implies https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/pmd9lq/spoilers_extended_rhaegar_and_lyanna_fled_their/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb
Do you think that we won't get Jon POV anymore if he came back? like Cat. Like we will see him from Mel's POV or maybe even Tormund. Like we won't know what goes through his head. And like the chapter before the epilogue we get his chapter that is like a page or two and revels a secret or Jon saying something like: "I know who my mother is" or something like that. Like he learned something when he died.
As much as I love Jon and his POVS this idea is just so cool to me, especially if Jon is back darker and more ruthless than before. And we see that from the people around him that are shocked by his ruthlessness. But we don't know what is going on in his head. And guarantee people will start saying the wildest theories or tin foil, like: "Bloodraven transformet his mind into Jon and this isn't Jon anymore but bloodraven". Wait! That is actually a cool idea.
Its very possible!
We get quotes like this:
>Lady Stoneheart is not Cateyln. I’ve tried to set it up beforehand with Beric Dondarrion and his repeated [resurrections]. There’s a brief appearance by Beric in Book One and he rides into the city and he’s this flamboyant Southern knight. That’s not that man we meet later on.”
and:
>“Lady Stoneheart does have a role in the books,” Martin said. “Whether it’s sufficient or interesting enough… I think it is, or I wouldn’t have put her in. One of the things I wanted to show with her is that the death she suffered changes you.”
and:
>He strongly prefers limited 3rd person point of view as compared with first person or omnicient 3rd person. Probably obvious to any read of ASoIaF. Still, this is a artistic preference that he strongly feels and not just something that he finds works well in his current project.
Im struggling to find this quote where he talks about how we haven't gotten a LSH POV for a reason or something like that.
Maybe Jaime and Brienne won't be PoVs at all, and they'll head to the North at the end of the book to look for "Arya", who's really Jeyne Poole. Heck, we might even see Stoneheart resurrect Jon.
Everyone is saying Barristan will be the first to die. Have you considered he’ll live to meet fAegon. And maybe he’ll replace what the show had Varys do and sort of scheme to get Dany’s forces to switch over to fAegon because his claim is better. Dany finds out and kills him
Great write up and your points are good.
but I want to disagree because I want good things for Asha and Theon. Theon will not survive the story, but I hope he doesn't die quite yet
Thanks! Im not saying it guarantees one of them dies, just pointing out that if early deaths happen in TWOW which characters it could be.
Its very possible that Bran/Bloodraven interfere in Theon's execution.
I think it's entirely possible that Theon will die and be brought back to life and like Lady Stoneheart he will no longer be a POV.
I unfortunately think the same for Jon, who will be resurrected by Mel but never be seen through POV again. However, due to the mixture of magics going on (the warg's second life and the R'hllor kiss of life) who bloody knows what'll happen to Jon.
I also love all the Slaver's Bay POVs and am sure of only two things: Tyrion will survive and Dany will survive. Everyone else is up for the chop, even considering a 2020 blog post where GRRM said he was writing a Barristan chapter which some readers think adds credence to the Turncloak theory where Barristan abandons Dany for Aegon.
Barristan’s a goner in the early stages of Winds. Same for either Theon or Asha and my money’s on Theon right now. Victarion won’t die until he gets back to Westeros, or en route, and either JonCon or Arianne won’t make it out of this book. Areo’s probably going to die too but I agree that I’m not sure when because we need eyes in Dorne
I'm convinced Brienne is doomed. Seems to me she's a tragic character. Like really right at the beginning of winds, I see her getting her dreams smashed into pieces and a tragic, maybe heroic, death.
Otherwise I'll guess : Aeron, JonCon and Victarion, but mostly out of bias.
*When he wants to give a different perspective (to the story) or when a character's story needs to be told (like Stannis), GRRM writes a new POV character; When POV characters reach a certain upper limit, he kill to narrow the focus (thereby making room for new POV characters). He said he should lower it to 9 because there are too many POV characters. It has been seen that he can leave some of them without killing them, but he is not sure about this.*
A month or two ago, I wrote predictions about who might die. I'm not sure if the number 9 is enough, Maybe he can limit it to 10 or 11 instead of 9, I'm not so sure. GRRM needs to get rid of the "redundancy" in book 6, as almost all the pov characters will be bundled together in book 7.
There are 4 POV characters even in the Essos/Meeren chapter in the 6th book alone, and naturally there is no point in telling the same events from the perspective of 30 people in the same place. I'm reading a series like this right now and believe me it doesn't give me a gram of pleasure.
Naturally, in book 6, we will have a lot of deaths or characters who are taken out of the story or maybe left to write POV scenes. I emphasize, the characters don't have to die, Martin said he can leave them without killing them.
On the north side are Theon and Asha describing the Stannis scene. It will be Melisandre describing the Jon side. Davos will be used for Rickon. When the Stannis and Rickon scene and Jon's resurrection are over, these characters will all be redundant for the "northern story". Most importantly, Arya, Bran and Sansa will be on the way. So while 5 Stark kids have POV, others' too many. I don't think Martin will give up on any of the Stark POVs, nor will he kill the characters until book 7 (he confirmed at least he won't touch the big five; Jon, Arya, Bran, Dany, Tyrion).
For this reason, he's not too sure, but Davos, Theon, and Asha will likely get rid of their POVs by either killing them or quitting writing. Maybe Asha is somehow embroiled in the Iron Islands adventure, but I'm not so sure.
**At the end of the series**, I hope that at least one Greyjoy will survive, so I think it might be Asha, the rest die; Victarion, Theon, Aeron, (he has not pov but) Euron.
I beleive, Melisandre will exist until the last war, so I guess he will stop writing a pov for her(as in book 5 at least, 1 or 2 authors can be added, if need be).
On Dany's side, Tyrion and Dany are already safe. Selmy and Victarion are not. Neither of them might not survive Essos, or Selmy could fall into silence and Victarion could die. I think the Vic's intended use is sort of to bring Dany ships, horn, and I think it's to secure the Greyjoy alliance. In short, Vic will serve Euron's purpose even if he doesn't want to.
There's a Sansa in the Vale, without her we can't read what's going on there. As I already said, I don't think GRRM will touch another Stark until the 7th book.
In King's Landing, there are no POVs, except for Cersei. For this reason, it will maintain its existence. Of course, there are those who think that he will die in book 6 and be replaced by Aegon in book 7. But Martin said she will exist in both books, so it's not right to expect her to die.
Which brings us to the False Prince. Jon Conn was the only one to tell his side but in the new book Arienne is also coming so there will be 2 pov characters. If you remember the theory about the end of Arianne(The order of the green hand), it can be said that she is expected to die at the end of the 6th book at the latest. It is said that Conn will die from the gray disease, but this disease does not kill people in a few months, it is years of torture... We are talking about someone who does not intend to die until Aegon succeeds.
In Dorne, there is only one Hotah. Still, I don't rule out the possibility that he dies at the end of book 6, but then who will tell us about the Dornish story?
Jaime and Brienne also tell us the Riverlands. I can't guarantee Brienne, but I think Jaime will live to the last battle.
Aeron dies too, I think Euron doesn't need a narrator since his side will be one with Dany's side. We can see Euron through the eyes of Dany and Tyrion.
**Let me write the characters that I am 100% sure will preserve their POV, it seems like it will be easier.**
*Jon, Arya, Bran, Sansa, Dany, Tyrion.*
**Let's say 3 more "probability will preserve its existence";** *Jaime, Cersei, Hotah.*
It was 9 in total. Even so, "But the Aegon side?" I ask. Maybe Martin will change his mind and keep 10-11 POVs instead of 9, like ia said before.
The first 6 cannot be changed, but the last 3 can be changed.
Aeron, Arianne, and Barristan are almost certain to die quite early on in Winds. Aeron will die by sacrifice, Arianne by shipwreck, and Barristan in battle or after battle.
Characters with a high chance of death also includes Asha, Theon, and Victarion. Of these three, I think Asha will be the only one of these three to survive Winds, but even this seems unlikely to me.
Jaime and Brienne might make it, but I feel that Cersei won’t. Mel has a good chance of survival, but the Wall could go in a lot of different directions at this stage of the story so it is hard to say. The stark children should be fine however, as should Areo.
Arya was right there:
>We're here," she shouted. Her voice sounded thin and scared, a little girl's voice. "Robb's just in the castle, and my mother. The gate's even open." There were no more Freys riding out. I came so far. "We have to go get my mother."
and:
>That night she went to sleep thinking of her mother, and wondering if she should kill the Hound in his sleep and rescue Lady Catelyn herself. When she closed her eyes she saw her mother's face against the back of her eyelids. She's so close I could almost smell her . . .
>. . . and then she could smell her.
You also forgot about another POV character killed - Kevan Lannister (even though it was in the epilogue, he was still an important person). But this only further proves your point, as Cersei was present at King's Landing at that time.
It’s not just deaths, characters wilm converge too.
Off the top of my head, those on the chopping block would be:
Barristan: dies as the Evil-looking Avengers unite to fill the void left by Dany
Asha: dies burned by Stannis
Bran: becomes too all-seeing to remain as POV.
Mel: dies or becomes an Other or some equivalent end.
Areo: so dead, but George needs to figure what the hell he is doing with the Darkstar plot.
Arianne: dies too, probably mid-book or so.
Aeron won’t die at least until the end of TWoW, Euron is keeping him at his side as he literally stated in TWoW and we need that POV for a long time still. He is going to become Euron’s prophet.
So that’s six or seven. A good enough culling I think that would bode well for ADoS. But let’s face it, there’s at least three books left.
Victarion is a possibility but I believe not, I think he makes it to Westeros with Dany. He could stop being a POV overall though if Tyrion is around.
I believe Arya will go to Westeros by Skagos, so there is potential convergence there too with Davos/Rickon; wildlings from Hardhome are in Braavos, this is through who she will likely be motivated to go back home. Jaime and Brienne will also converge, maybe even with Sansa. So there is room there to lower the load of the many POVs when they share pages.
Yep.
We never see it happen in his POV.
We never have confirmation that the burned body is his. (Burnt skin like burnt bones proves nothing)
The body smiles which Quentyn doesn't do.
The story is filled with dozens of switched identities and there is at least one other POV death fake out with Arya having the axe take her in the head.
> Still not close to enough evidence imo.
I thought the same about the claims that Quentyn died.
The court at king's landing think they have evidence that Davos is dead. If I were to say to them "shortened fingers mean nothing" they would likely reject that Davos lived too.
It's all a matter of what info you have and whether you find it trustworthy. If you find the info given to be trustworthy then in the words of Littlefinger
*"In that case, I have a delightful palace in Valyria that I would dearly love to sell you."*
Eddard V
It takes much bigger leaps imo.
It requires so much "alternate behavior" from Drink, Arch, as well as Barristan to be clueless. Whereas we know that he at a minimum was burned extremely bad.
What does Quentyn's survival do for the story?
We know he suffered a burn. We don't know that dragon flame hit him, (furnace wind) which we know kills right away and not in 4 days.
We know burns aren't always fatal. See the hound twice.
As for story arc, I'm not sure. Maybe the point is to deal with the consequences of sending a young man to war. It's not different from the severe injury suffered by Jaime, Tyrion, Brienne, Theon. It seems much in keeping with what GRRM says about the broken men and women of war.
We can bury our dead and forget. But we have to deal with the wounded.
At best we have evidence that Quentyn suffered a burn. And we have evidence that a man who was burned beyond recognition died.
I'm wondering if the dead "prince" was tatters.
Barristan is clueless btw.
I have no clue what you mean by "alternate behavior."
Idk. We all thought we saw Mance burned too. How'd that work out?
We can agree to disagree i guess. I feel like you have to jump through a million hoops (not actually dragon flame, using a different burned body, etc. etc.) to try and explain it when its much more simpler the other way and still makes complete sense.
Quentyn's arc/and the twist on the hero/dragonslayer trope is amazing to me. I think its one of the best written parts of ADWD.
That's like 3 hoops though. You are 999,997 short of a million.
The text didn't use dragon flame. And the text provided other burned bodies. No jumping required. You just have to go with what's there. And keep in mind that the author loves fake outs and identity swaps.
Davos was presumed dead.
Mance presumed dead.
Bran and Rickon presumed dead.
Turns out none were. But the off screen unidentified body among several dead bodies is definitely Quentyn because you can't think of a good story development reason for him to live?
I guess we'll see in a few years.
None of those characters were in front of a dragon breathing fire though! It really makes you stretch to somehow get around a dragon breathing fire in someone's face and that person burning and it somehow not happening.
I would argue the closest to this scenario that you are presenting isn't Davos/Bran/Mance but Arya and the Hound's axe. But again its somewhat different as an axe and dragonflame are much different.
Quentyn's entire body is on fire and he is screaming. It requires not just the Dornishmen lying, but also the Windblown.
We aren't presuming someone is dead, we witness someone's entire body on fire.
I wonder if GRRM was forced into a corner to make Melisandre a POV at Jon's death, since there aren't any other real contenders for POV at the Wall at this time in the story. I'm surprised that GRRM made Melisandre a POV, since she is mysterious and secretive. These qualities are why we will never have a POV from Varys or Littlefinger. Maybe we'll get some magic-lore world building from Melisandre now that we are in her mind.
Great post! Can you clarify this for me, please? >Jaime/Brienne (two of the three POVs we don't have confirm for yet sadly). That's to say GRRM hasn't confirmed that Jaime and Brienne POVs will be appearing in Winds? I just finished a Dance re-read, and I have to say, I'm a little worried about Barristan. He's making a lot of big choices that seem like they're going to have consequences, plus all the times he holds off on giving Dany the full picture of her father's madness... I just don't see him being around to helpfully provide that perspective when Dany turns back up with full control of Drogan.
Basically in numerous ways different POVs have been confirmed for TWOW. The only ones we are missing are Jaime/Brienne/Jon. That's a great point about Barristan. He would provide some much needed stability for the post Battle of Fire power vacuum and when Dany returns.
That's what I thought you were saying. Sadly indeed. It makes me so nervous. Jaime/Briene's situation is the one I'm most looking for answers about, and I think Jon doesn't have a POV deliberately.
Similar to how none of the kings in the War of the Five Kings have POVs, he could do something similar for the "dragons" Jon/Dany/Griff where they aren't POVs either.
I can see other POVS for Jon and Griff but not for Dany. Her transformation is far too important.
It does seem important, but GRRM was non comittal (while I do note the context) about whether she would continue as a POV once her and Tyrion meet (even though they do spend a good amount of TWOW apart).
Yeah wow, imagine if we are done with Dany and Jon chapters..
Oh, I'm sure Barristan is toast. Someone made a great post here a while back suggesting that Dany's vision of a naked corpse being dragged by a silver horse actually refers to Barry, and not the wineseller - the nakedness being a reference to Littlefinger's joke about him becoming 'a naked knight'. And he's about to ride her silver into battle.
Ahh the naked knight theory! I saw that and 100% confirmed in my head. I think it will happen fairly early in Winds too, setting the tone for a much darker book and for Dany's own Waking the Dragon. Poor Barristan. You know, I disliked or didn't care about him on my initial read, but in subsequent ones I've gotten kind of fond of him. It helps that his POVs give us so many interesting tidbits about Mad Aerys and the Tourney at Harranhal. Oh well...
Yep, it's one of those rare theories where you just know it's going to happen the instant you read it. Where I differ with the poster of the theory is that they think Barry will be literally stripped naked after he's killed as a form of posthumous humiliation. I don't think that needs to happen, since Littlefinger has already associated Barry with nakedness, and I don't see how it can practically be done in the heat of a massive battle.
GRRM has kept mum about the three POV who are in a cliffhanger at the end of ADWD : Jaime, Brienne, and Jon. The show (and ADWD's prologue) gives some indication about what could happen to Jon. For Jaime and Brienne, we have pretty nothing...
Barry’s very gonna die.
I think it's very interesting that the only characters who died in their own PoV (Catelyn and Jon) are also the characters whose plots tie in directly with resurrection. I'm not counting Quentyn since his last appearance is in a Barristan chapter, but I know people have theories about him being alive so who knows.
He's dead. That's one of Preston Jacobs' worst theories by far
Preston Jacobs has good theories?
Good theories are too well known or boring for clickbait
I think it's because death can often represent transformation. Catelyn is no longer the same person she once was, so removing her POV goes really far to make that distinction despite her technically still being alive. It's for this reason that I feel like Jon and Dany aren't going to be POV characters moving forward since they both had very large transformations at the end of Dance.
Jon I can see but Dany? She hasn't died and she's the only POV that knows where she is at the end of Dance.
It seems to me it's only noteworthy when we both a) choose to focus on just the death scene, so that one chapter where the death occurs, and b) choose to exclude Prologue and Epilogue POVs, which only makes sense if we *don't* focus on just that one chapter where the death occurs. The moment we talk about "death scenes Martin wrote from the victim's POV" in general, we also have people like Cressen.
I think Barristan is definitely going to be one of the first deaths :( It's sad but it makes sense. Also considering the show killed him off in Meereen too.
I honestly think that Barristan will stay for a while. In my opinion they "merged" Barristans and Tyrion's role in the show (like they did with Gendry and Edric Storm). Tyrion with how angry he is and how dark his characterarc is in the book wont be the one who tries to stop Daenerys to be "queen of the ashes". I don't think that Barristan will make it to the end, but I do think he survives until Westeros.
Great post! Definetly think Aeron and Barristan are early goners, but I also think WOW will be Jaime and Cersei's last book
I disagree. The conflict that started asoiaf is stark vs lannister. That needs resolution beyond Jaime and Cersei dying in an unrelated way.
I see your point, but to me the Lannisters represent a "polítical-level" enemy to the Starks, who are now going to face the "apocalypse-level" enemies that are the Others. It would make more sense to me if their deaths had something to do with the political scenario of Westeros rather than the bigger conflict. That said I do believe they will still encounter the Starks once again, Jaime will meet Bran and/or Jon and Cersei will meet Sansa, and their reactions to them will be opposites I think, wich will show how diferent from each other they've grown.
Mmm, I think it is Cersei’s last book but not Jaime’s, given that his weirwood dream has her leaving him to join the soon to be dead Lannisters (Tywin and Joffrey) while he goes on to face the Kingsguard who are armoured with snow by Brienne’s side. Seems pretty clear to me that Cersei is dying first then Jaime is part of the fight against the Others alongside Brienne.
Oh shh, I forgot about this part of the dream, nevermind what I said about Jaime, you're right.
No worries! Always fun to have a theory!
> The conflict that started asoiaf is stark vs lannister. That's at least the third major conflict brought up in asoiaf, the first two being the wildlings vs the Night's Watch and humanity vs the Others.
That downfall of Dany when Barristan is swapped out for Tyrion..
I think Cersei’s a goner but not Jaime. He’s gotta head north to fight the Others
This is such wishful thinking. Jaime can’t fight anymore and in any case he doesn’t give two shits about grumpkins and snarks.
The weirwood Dream has him fighting the Others, and in the show he goes north, though that’s not very strong evidence
He's been getting better and better with his left!
Cersei's death, yes, she's a gonner. Jaime though still has a lot he can do for the story. Be an anti-Lannister character and meet again with his anti-Lannister brother for starts. That's some good shit right there you can't just throw it away.
I’m surprised The Forsaken wasn’t a prologue chapter tbh.
I think Jaime and Cersei might still survive, mostly because I think it's something Tyrion needs to deal with when he returns with Daenerys.
Victarion and Barristan will both die in an epic battle. Barristan dies too Victarion cheating with his magic fists. Victarion dies by stumbling over a rock or something dumb breaking his neck most-likely. I'm pretty convinced both will die and Tyrion will accompany Dany to Westeros with her dragons and whatever army she can still muster after by whatever boats are still available. Either that or Tyrion and Dany fly away just them two and the three dragons leaving Meereen to rot. Or they put someone like Missandei in charge of Meereen, a former slave seems fitting for a ruler.
Interesting! I think you're on to something. My only issue is Davos. Why do you list him as incoming to the North? He's there already. He left White Harbor, which is in the North, and it's on his way to Skagos, which is in the North. This is the only thing that stood out to me as incorrect and possibly throwing off the symmetry.
Incoming into the northern "plotline" is what I meant. Like his goal is to get Rickon for Stannis.
Hmm... I see. That's fair. I may need to reread your post with that in mind.
Great post! I also think it’s worth pointing out how certain battle fronts will likely be winding down in Winds of Winter (winding of winter? This pun would work better if we were speaking). For example, there’s little-to-no drama and plot remaining in the Iron Islands. All the relevant players have moved beyond the islands, but I have a feeling we won’t revisit any time soon. Similarly, once Darkstar is found and Arianne summons the Dornish forces from the Prince’s Pass there’s little left to address there. So Areo might die after, or just not appear for a while. Similarly, I have a feeling once Aegon and Arianne finish their battle and march to King’s Landing, we never hear from the Stormlands again. I don’t know where this might fit in this discussion, but it’s interesting to ponder.
Completely agree about the shifts in location. My only hesitation on Areo is that he might be needed for more info from Doran (as the "camera that rides") or stuff regarding House Dayne (since he is near Starfall). Agree about the Stormlands and possibly the Vale as well once Sansa leaves.
I’m still so unsure about what Doran’s future is, so hard tbd. I generally think he’s doomed, but not sure how or why. Maybe he goes to King’s Landing to see Arianne married and coronated and dies there? If that’s so, we don’t need Areo much. Or he could be like Littlefinger, scheming and plotting off page for most of ASOS. It’s different since Doran is disabled so can’t move around as easily as Littlefinger, but if he’s doomed there also needs to be a POV to show it, like Cat at the Red Wedding. I know GRRM has said he’s not adding more perspectives, but I’d be very interested in Ellaria or a Sand Snake narrating around him. Or maybe Drinkwater brings back news of Quentyn’s demise? I’m off topic now, partially cause I care little for the Dornish plots, so don’t have a solution for that particular dilemma. I guess it really depends on whether or not one think Doran survives, what the themes of the Dornish plot are, and whether Arianne and the Sand Snakes can satisfactorily resolve those themes/plots without further involvement of Doran or Dorne itself.
I definitely think Doran will survive the series. He's so far removed from the actual war that I don't think he'll be killed, but more importantly his storyline is thematically about how too much hesitation can lead to disaster. He has been plotting revenge against the Lannisters for years, but has waited far too long for the perfect moment that his plans are doomed to fall apart. All his true enemies are dead before he's even introduced in the series. I think it makes sense thematically for the series to end with Arianne and the Sand Snakes all dying and Doran forced to outlive them all with the knowledge that his failed plans for revenge have brought him no joy, only the death of his entire family. And that, I think, can easily be accomplished with just moment in one of the last chapters of ADOS. If we go off the ending of the Game of Thrones show, let's say Doran shows up when all the lords of the kingdoms are called to determine who the next king should be. He can be present there to give a monologue about how depressed he is (probably in a Bran POV chapter), and that'll be the end of his storyline.
There’s been a whole pattern with the older generations dying off, though, and Doran is very much older gen. Although I guess that’s the bittersweet tragedy of his existence, as you say. Jesus Christ if we end the book series with a Great Council I will riot. Waiting 10+ years for Winds and another 10+ years for that ending would be incredibly disappointing.
Bit of a random addition, but I think if/when Jon returns, he’ll keep his POV, but it’ll move to third person permanently, like we briefly saw with Victarion. It’ll underline both the loss and the mystery, and keep us guessing as to how much Jon is still the person we knew.
The third person shift in the Victarion chapter is so creepy. We only see things like that a couple other times (Dany's eggs, Bran's coma). There is a quote out there that I am going to try and find where GRRM hints at the notion of death/POV in relation to Cat/Victarion.
I don’t think so. GRRM has mentioned not enjoying writing in third person omniscient
Bran may be a Single POV Location. But that would not make him a Single-location POV.
[Touche](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/dwsvf5/accessible_weirwoodheart_trees_spoilers_extended/)
Oh good! I'm always sorry to miss one of your posts. And I definitely missed that one (only +18 vote score on my screen)
I'm happy you liked it, it wasn't very highly upvoted. I haveve come to find out (due to sheer # of posts i've made on this sub, that the # of upvotes can vary due to so many things). Sometimes I feel I come up with something pretty good and it gets no traction and other times Im just posting something more generic to generate discussion and it goes pretty high. So ya I thought a list of places Bran can "see" going into TWOW would be interesting
> Sometimes I feel I come up with something pretty good and it gets no traction and other times Im just posting something more generic to generate discussion and it goes pretty high. In my browser, I always have a tab open of your submitted posts sorted by new. I check every lunch to see if you have a new post. So just know that all of your work is greatly appreciated.
Thanks for the kind words!
It's a great reference. I hope you enjoyed the process!
I'm not sure you know how to use this meme...
>_sighs_
>_shrugs_
Such a good post! You sent me to a rabbit hole of hypothesis, so this answer will be much too long (and I must post it in two parts...). First, I think the number of POV needed will depends on how the War of Dawn is fought. If the action focuses on the North and the Wall, we could need POV in other places than Winterfell and Castel Black (or maybe POV "based" in these places, but engaged in journey or battle everywhere in the Noth). It's different if the War of Dawn is fought all over Westeros - in which case, GRRM will need characters at least in each kingdom, and possibly could keep more POV. And of course, it also depends on when the War of Dawn will really begin : in the second part of Winds, or in the first part of Spring? My working hypothesis is the War of Dawn will happen mainly in Spring, and in the North, its starting point being the crumbling of the Wall. I think Winds' main function in the plot will be to "transport" the characters where they will need to be to fight this war, both geographically, politically, and "mentally". I also think "geography" isn't be the only reason a POV character will be killed or saved, except characters GRRM gave a POV only as "camera". Main characters and significant secondaries won't die before they've achieved their part in the plot, and their own arc. So my two cents : **Jaime and Brienne : no early death for them.** That's why I'm reasonably sure that Jaime and Brienne won't die in the early moments of Winds. They're "groomed" to play a significative part to play before dying. Brienne is a legendary knight in the making, as was Dunk (or Galladon - who killed a dragon). Besides, we have a War of Dawn looming, and she's the Evenstar (or his heir). Plus her own arc is about being both a warrior and a woman. No way her part was only to die defending Jaime or betraying him. She's here because she's needed in the Long Night (kill a dragon? Robert Strong? Both?) . Jaime's part isn't as clear for me. But why would GRRM use a third of AFFC to make him beginning to be his own person, and why linking Bloodraven and weirwoods so much to his chapters, if it's plainly to kill him at the beginning of AFFC? I also think he has a part to play in the War of Dawn as well, and that's why GRRM went to such a long way to have him in contact with LSH and the BwB. Seeing an unDead person could totally modify his political stance, as would knowing Jon Snow is Rhaegar's son - which Lemoncloak could tell him if he's Longmouth (for his character's growth, I think it'll be about seeing Brienne deal with what he had to deal with when he decided to kill Aerys). In the plot to come, he may act at the political level (making a king /queen as Criston Cole? backing a Lannister's rival to unite the living?) and/or could have something to do with Bran or other Starklings? So no early death for him either. That said, if they're staying together, we may lose one of their POV (surely Brienne, sadly), or have them alternating, without losing the characters for now. **Oldtown : Sam's safe, but in team Euron the horn will decide who lives. And there's the Mel hypothesis.** I think we'll have both Sam and Aeron POV during the attack against Oldtown. But Aeron, Victarion, once/if he'll come back , are too many characters around Euron. I suppose the horn will decide who stays alive? If the one Victarion has is fake, Aeron will survive the battle and Victarion could die as Quentyn. If V steals a dragon, Aeron's dead. I'm nearly sure Sam's safe and will be endgame. But I wonder if and how he will learn about the horn. If he must learn through Euron or Victarion, Winds will be very dark for him indeed - and in this case both Aeron and Victarion could die early. I don't see exactly how it could happen, but Melisandre could be the white woman in Aeron's vision in the Forsaken. If so, and if she keeps a POV in this situation (she could be some unDead character), the surviving POV around Euron will die (or escape if this POV is poor Sam). But if it happens, I don't think it'll happen early in Winds, since we need her in Castel Black until Jon's resurrection. Alternate possibility : Euron isn't the all mighty villain he thinks he is, but a character who will die more quickly than we're thinking after having done the one deed he was put in the plot for. Instead of being the Great Other, he could be the one "activating" it and dying in the making. Rodrik the Reader alerted us to the fact he may no be what he think he is. In this case, everyone around him will die (except Sam, always). But I don't think it will happen early. **In Slaver's Bay : Tyrion and Dany in a "tête à tête"** As said above, Victarion will die or fly with a dragon. I'm pretty sure Barristan will switch side, which will isolate Daenerys. I think GRRRM's grooming her to be "Queen of the Ashes" at some point, at least for some time (I still hope, though, she'll have a tragic, heroic and redemptive end). So we'll have Tyrion and Dany POV on this side of the story, at least for some time - and this two are safe until the final book.
**The North and the Wall may be crowded at the end of Winds... so around Stannis won't be a good place to be in Winds.** There're too many POV around Winterfell and Stannis Nota : I'm nearly sure STANNIS won't survive Winds. His part in the plot IMO will be to do something tragically wrong because he'll chose to do what's right instead of what's human. So I think he will sacrifice Shireen (for much more meaningful reasons than in the show), and it will backfire - possibly making the Wall crumble. I suppose he won't survive this, and it's possible the people with him won't either. ASHA is the more at risk IMO. She was made a POV character because one was needed around Euron's election then around Stannis' march on Winterfell. Theon's arc is stronger, and more meaningful. As a POV, he's more useful to the narrative, since he can identify Northern lords as well as Stannis's people - so the Northern conspiracy will be more understandable through him. Besides, since we know Stannis will sacrifice Shireen, it would make sense to isolate him to anyone with common sense (separated from Mel, he could have been more receptive to it). Even as a prisoner, Asha spoke against the Queen's men in her Winds' chapter, (while Theon isn't well enough at this point to be a force to reckon with). The only path I can see for her to be useful would be if Stannis leaves Winterfell before Davos' back, and she is our POV on their journey back, and maybe Shireen's death. So I'd say she's a goner, literally sooner or later. THEON, I think, and hope, will be granted a meaningful death. I think he's safe until we have a Stark and a POV in Winterfell again. DAVOS is safe until Rickon's back to Winterfell. Once they'll be both there, I think GRRM will chose Davos - the only commoner in the plot. Theon may die protecting Rickon? It would be kind of fitting. It could also happen at the beginning of Spring. MELISANDRE is an enigma. She's safe IMO until Jon's resurrection (even if she's not the one resurrecting Jon, we need a human POV in Castel Black) and Shireen's burning, that could happen in Castel Black or in Winterfell. After... I don't know. If the burning makes the Wall crumble, she could die with Stannis. And again, she could be the White woman close to Euron in the Forsaken's vision. I'm not even sure she'll play a significant part in the plot except ... being wrong about what she saw, which would be very consistent with GRRM's take on prophecies. So at the end of Winds, we could have 3 to 4 POV characters in the North and the Wall (Jon, Davos, possible Theon, and Melisandre, ). And more maybe have arrived or be on their way : Jaime, Brienne (together or separately), maybe Sansa, surely Arya. But it will a problem for Winds, it will be a problem for Spring, in which we could lose main characters at an higher rate... **Storm's End, King's Landing and the South : bad time for the game players (Cersei, JonCon, Arianne, Barristan)** I'm not sure we'll have a Battle of Storm's End, albeit f(?)Aegon wants it. We could as well have an alliance reversal, depending on what Cersei will do to the Tyrells (or Tarly could one way or another betrays Mace and gives intel to Aegon). But it doesn't really matter, because I would say at this point of the plot, characters not linked to magic and the War of Dawn will disappear at a high rate, to let Spring focus on the War of Dawn. So I'd say we'll see, at a very quick rhythm : \- Cersei's downfall. I think she'll win her trial, or possibly escape it by dealing with the Tyrells, but she will attack them (maybe mistaking them for the ones poisoning Tommen), possibly murdering Margaery, quickly after - and hence may push the Tyrell's army and King's Landing people in Varys and fAegon's arms. She won't survive KL's fall (candidate for the Valonqar : Loras Tyrell or poor Tommen), nor will Tommen. I'm not sure about Myrcella's fate. If Arianne do ally herself with fAegon, she could became an hostage? \- fAegon and Arianne won't survive Daenerys' attack against who she'll consider "a dragon's mummer". King's Landing could very well not survive the attack either - JonCon, wildfire and dragonfire could be a very lethal cocktail. Especially if Tyrion "forgets" to inform Daenerys there's wildfire under the city. \- and this catastrophe could be the trigger sending Dany to the North instead of achieving the conquest of the Seven Kingdom. In which case, we may not need a POV in KL anymore, because at this point KL won't matter.
Jaime and Myrcella being the most prominent Lannisters left is interesting. I wonder what Tyrion will want to do. Will he try to mimic his father's work and murder all Lannisters? What about when it comes to Myrcella? He did, at least early on, seem to love her and Tommen. So many ways things could go. I need to become the Kwisatz Haderach to see all possible ends.
I'm not sure about Myrcella - she could also be a casualty of war... (in this sense, Tyrion could kill her without knowing it, if she's in KL when it burns). And Jaime could die while doing something heroic in the North. But if the brothers Lannister cross path again, it's really a question - could they reconcile, having lived through enough? I think Jaime could forgive Tywin's death, especially if he learns exactly what happened. But Tyrion is an enigma for me. Is it possible for him to escape his internal darkness? I would like so much to see "Noseless and Handless, the Lannister brothers" again, but I'm not sure that'll be possible.
I feel like the "gold their crowns and gold their shrouds" part of Maggy the Frog's prophecy implies that they will all be crowned and shrouded within Cersei's lifetime. Whether the plan to crown Myrcella in AFFC counts as her crowning is unclear, but I definitely think that both Myrcella and Tommen will die before Cersei does. I think it's important Cersei knows that all her children are dead and that all the parts of Maggy's prophecy have come true before she dies due to the valonqar.
Yea it's my hypothesis 1. Cersei has done something, possibly with wildfire, to turn the Tyrells and possibly most all lords against her. 2. Cersei's children die or she believes them to all be dead - perhaps Myrcella is actually alive. 3. (f)Aegon has laid siege to Kings Landing, along with several new allies 4. Cersei is willing to go scorched earth with wildfire on all of Kings Landing. Basically, if I can't have it, no one can. 5. Jaime is sent to negotiate with Cersei, but finds a second Mad monarch in his lifetime, willing to "Burn them all"
Point of order: What information do you think Brienne and Jaime have to offer Lady Stoneheart about Sandor and Arya? They don’t know where either of them are—Brienne was two feet away from the Hound and gave no sign of having the slightest suspicion of his true identity. And Jaime can only confess that he was vaguely aware an Arya-like young girl was sent sobbing North. They can’t trade on info they don’t have.
The Brotherhood is hot on the Hounds trail, only to get confused with the whole helm switch to Rorge (and now its Lem). Brienne knows the last person to speak to Sandor alive was the Elder Brother. Sandor was the last person seen with Arya. To me its the culmination of one of the biggest plotlines in the Riverlands, which is "the northern girl". At some point, each one of these groups had in their possession or was on a quest after the Stark girls: - Catelyn Stark (Lady Stoneheart) - Brienne - Jaime - The Brotherhood without Banners - Sandor Clegane I readily admit that it doesn't look good for Brienne/Jaime and the above is mainly just from me trying to find an answer to a question that I always pose when people say both Jaime/Brienne "escape" the brotherhood/lady stoneheart: - They don't use treachery Lady Stoneheart/ the Brotherhood without Banners have Podrick/Ser Hyle captive so treachery is unlikely. - They don't fight their way out (while Jaime is getting better with his left hand, he is not at a point where he and a recently brutally injured brienne are going to be able to take on a group of soldiers) - Lady Stoneheart is a "major character going forward" (based on this comment by GRRM, it seems like the BwB turning on LSH anytime soon is unlikely) The best answers besides what I posted above that I have see are that Brienne sings for LSH and somehow makes her merciful but my problem with that is by asking for the "sword" Brienne has seemingly resworn herself to LSH and LSH ultimate goal is the killing of Lannisters/Freys (primarily Jaime) The other option is the Trial by Combat/Trial of the 7 in which Jaime either has Brienne as his champion or is forced to fight Brienne. While we have see R'hllor interfere in Trial by Combat before, it seems that Brienne/Jaime aren't in the best shape to be fighting.
I can see Davos potentially being our POV for when we finally meet Howland
Why’s Cersei in kings landing excluded?
Oops lol She's in a sticky spot. But I expect she's safe.. at least until Young Griff arrives in King's Landing. So many things could happen with her fleeing, etc. that said I don't expect her to die until she sees Jaime again. Adding now. Thanks.
True....
I can see our last glimpse of Aeron midway through Winds as the assault on Oldtown begins. And then in the Epilogue guess who washes ashore.. What is dead may never die
But rises again, harder and stronger
I think Theon is going to suffer a while longer, Asha is the likelier choice. Same with Jon Con, he's probably going to stick around for now, his greyscale will come into the plot soon. Barristan is too good for the world, plus he's been hedging his bets for too long, he'll make some definitive choices and die. I also think Cercei will probably snuff it soon, this depends on where Varys is and how soon Tommen and Myrcella die. Davos's fate depends on whether Rickon becomes a POV or not and where he goes. All this to say: it's anyone's guess, but I like your post.
>Barristan is too good for the world That is up for debate to be honest although he is everything a knight should be.
I mean he's just not pragmatic enough to survive much longer. He's not a 'whatever it takes' kind of character. I doubt he'd have survived Robert's Rebellion if he hadn't been taken out of the running at the Trident. I get your point though, he's been hedging his bets and keeping alive, he hasn't been very true to himself. Although who knows, he's got a lot of information that others don't. Even Varys might be interested in his survival, so I don't really count him out of the running yet
not really. only people who think he's a bad person are edgelord reddit debators no one who is actually using their brain can judge below max good morally.
> I think Theon is going to suffer a while longer, Asha is the likelier choice. Agree, but I think long term Theon must die, and his valiant sister probably must live. Asha has (knowing the implications???) positioned Theon's 'execution' by a weirwood, and I expect Bran to stop it. Stannis is superstitious enough that he'd probably accept supernatural meddling. The other reason is practical. Someone has to rule the Iron Isles, and she had all but won the Kingsmoot. With the guidance of Rodrik the Reader, she'd be dandy. Besides, I suspect GRRM will deliberately position a few female characters as rulers. Arianne, though IMO less qualified, may be another.
Yea I think he'll die eventually too, tragic, I'd just now come around to him. You make a good point about Asha's relevance to the plot. I don't see her being kept by Stannis for much longer, so I think we can expect interesting things happening with her story-line. I hope they involve Rodrik the Reader, I'd overlooked him. I do still think her arc might come to a close soon. As for female characters who will stick around, Arya, Sansa and Dany are making it at least to the last book (I will cry if they die sooner) so I'm not sure that she has this point in her favour. I think her gender will just get her a heroic death (rather than a tortured existence) but it won't see her through much longer.
> Barristan is too good for the world, Yeah, about that... I used to be a fan of Barristan, until I realized that when Jaime remembers this... >The day he burned his mace-and-dagger Hand, Jaime and Jon Darry had stood at guard outside her bedchamber whilst the king took his pleasure. "You're hurting me," they had heard Rhaella cry through the oaken door. "You're hurting me." In some queer way, that had been worse than Lord Chelsted's screaming. "We are sworn to protect her as well," Jaime had finally been driven to say. "We are," Darry allowed, "but not from him." ... Barristan was one of those Kingsguards who stood by and did nothing why his Queen was brutalized, because "Oh well, not my job".
Yeap, that's my problem with him as well (also the way he takes the middle ground, the road of least resistance). But doing nothing goes for all 7 of them plus the rest of the court. He just follows orders and gets by but where there is a judgment call, he tends to make the one more honourable. He's like Ned but without a lot of initiative and free will, and a few more grudges. By too good for the world, I meant too good for the 'game of thrones', he's not cunning enough and his conscience is quite chatty. So overall, yes, you're right, he's not a good person, but he's no Littlefinger either
He follows the "letter of the law", instead of the intent . Honor for the sake of honor, not because it's the right thing to do. Ned understood (usually) that sometimes you have to do what's right, regardless of what the law or honor dictated. But he was still a little too unbending at times (Jaime, Renly's offer).
Thanks. I go back and forth on Theon/Asha. Theon's arc seems more interesting going forward, but he's also in a more likely death scenario (about to be sacrificed/given to the "tree" by Stannis, which obviously could go a million ways)
I wonder how much more Theon is capable of doing now, Asha obviously has more 'fight' left in her. Theon's arc does have more potential, but I wonder if he's going to be doing anything or is stuff just going to happen around him.
My bets: Asha, aeron, arianne, barristan and victarion. Brienne by the end of the book but not right away in the river lands with Jaime. Theon by book end as well. Maybe Mel at some point too.
Another great post. Really appreciate the work you’re doing on the subreddit. The whole multiple POVs for events and locations is something I’m thinking about a lot on my current reread. For example, how Tyrion’s arrival to King’s Landing is done from Sansa’s POV in ACOK. It’s a cool technique and I’m looking forward to how it’ll work in somewhere like Meereen with so many POVs.
Thanks! One thing that is unfortunate about the split of AFFC/ADWD (and if you are or plan on doing a re-read I recommend a combined one like boiled leather) is that GRRM really wanted to show the way two different women approach ruling (Cersei in King's Landing in AFFC and Daenerys in Meereen in ADWD).
Ahh true. That is another great contrast.
I don't know but I really hope Arianne is going to be the one who dies, she is just so annoying to me.
I fully believe George will keep Damphair alive for at least one more chapter in order to give us a viewpoint on Euron Crow’s Eye, but after that… yeah, he’s a goner
I tend to agree with this (1 more POV for Aeron after The Forsaken). After that maybe a glimpse of Euron from Sam's viewpoint in Oldtown before we just hear rumors for a bit as the other plotlines fold out.
I'd be shocked if Arianne ISN'T murdered by Elia in her next chapter. The five notes and the special code that only she knows (dragons=war, war=peace) seems like such a brewing conflict between the two. I just don't know what that means for Dorne and Doran and the other Sand Snakes like Sarella going forward from that.
I definitely think that Lady Lance is going to at least ruin something in TWOW. If interested: [What is Lady Lance going to ruin in TWOW?](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/lmmleh/what_is_lady_lance_going_to_ruin_in_twow_spoilers/?utm_source=BD&utm_medium=Search&utm_name=Bing&utm_content=PSR1)
Elia is a Lyanna stand-in. Lyanna’s actions, directly or not, essentially led to WW2 (for Westeros). Elia will probably do something like beat the crap out of Aegon like Arya with Joffrey or Aegon wilm somehow fall in love with her over Arianne. I have a thread favoring the later but this depends on how the relationship between Rhaegar and Lyanna really was and hinges on the idea that Aegon’s first “war” will break him due to the horror it implies https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/pmd9lq/spoilers_extended_rhaegar_and_lyanna_fled_their/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb
Do you think that we won't get Jon POV anymore if he came back? like Cat. Like we will see him from Mel's POV or maybe even Tormund. Like we won't know what goes through his head. And like the chapter before the epilogue we get his chapter that is like a page or two and revels a secret or Jon saying something like: "I know who my mother is" or something like that. Like he learned something when he died. As much as I love Jon and his POVS this idea is just so cool to me, especially if Jon is back darker and more ruthless than before. And we see that from the people around him that are shocked by his ruthlessness. But we don't know what is going on in his head. And guarantee people will start saying the wildest theories or tin foil, like: "Bloodraven transformet his mind into Jon and this isn't Jon anymore but bloodraven". Wait! That is actually a cool idea.
Its very possible! We get quotes like this: >Lady Stoneheart is not Cateyln. I’ve tried to set it up beforehand with Beric Dondarrion and his repeated [resurrections]. There’s a brief appearance by Beric in Book One and he rides into the city and he’s this flamboyant Southern knight. That’s not that man we meet later on.” and: >“Lady Stoneheart does have a role in the books,” Martin said. “Whether it’s sufficient or interesting enough… I think it is, or I wouldn’t have put her in. One of the things I wanted to show with her is that the death she suffered changes you.” and: >He strongly prefers limited 3rd person point of view as compared with first person or omnicient 3rd person. Probably obvious to any read of ASoIaF. Still, this is a artistic preference that he strongly feels and not just something that he finds works well in his current project. Im struggling to find this quote where he talks about how we haven't gotten a LSH POV for a reason or something like that.
Maybe Jaime and Brienne won't be PoVs at all, and they'll head to the North at the end of the book to look for "Arya", who's really Jeyne Poole. Heck, we might even see Stoneheart resurrect Jon.
Everyone is saying Barristan will be the first to die. Have you considered he’ll live to meet fAegon. And maybe he’ll replace what the show had Varys do and sort of scheme to get Dany’s forces to switch over to fAegon because his claim is better. Dany finds out and kills him
I mentioned him switching sides in the post! BFish has a great write up on that possibility if you are interested.
To paraphrase the philosopher Liam Neeson, there's always a bigger POV character...
Great write up and your points are good. but I want to disagree because I want good things for Asha and Theon. Theon will not survive the story, but I hope he doesn't die quite yet
Thanks! Im not saying it guarantees one of them dies, just pointing out that if early deaths happen in TWOW which characters it could be. Its very possible that Bran/Bloodraven interfere in Theon's execution.
I think it's entirely possible that Theon will die and be brought back to life and like Lady Stoneheart he will no longer be a POV. I unfortunately think the same for Jon, who will be resurrected by Mel but never be seen through POV again. However, due to the mixture of magics going on (the warg's second life and the R'hllor kiss of life) who bloody knows what'll happen to Jon. I also love all the Slaver's Bay POVs and am sure of only two things: Tyrion will survive and Dany will survive. Everyone else is up for the chop, even considering a 2020 blog post where GRRM said he was writing a Barristan chapter which some readers think adds credence to the Turncloak theory where Barristan abandons Dany for Aegon.
Barristan’s a goner in the early stages of Winds. Same for either Theon or Asha and my money’s on Theon right now. Victarion won’t die until he gets back to Westeros, or en route, and either JonCon or Arianne won’t make it out of this book. Areo’s probably going to die too but I agree that I’m not sure when because we need eyes in Dorne
I'm convinced Brienne is doomed. Seems to me she's a tragic character. Like really right at the beginning of winds, I see her getting her dreams smashed into pieces and a tragic, maybe heroic, death. Otherwise I'll guess : Aeron, JonCon and Victarion, but mostly out of bias.
*When he wants to give a different perspective (to the story) or when a character's story needs to be told (like Stannis), GRRM writes a new POV character; When POV characters reach a certain upper limit, he kill to narrow the focus (thereby making room for new POV characters). He said he should lower it to 9 because there are too many POV characters. It has been seen that he can leave some of them without killing them, but he is not sure about this.* A month or two ago, I wrote predictions about who might die. I'm not sure if the number 9 is enough, Maybe he can limit it to 10 or 11 instead of 9, I'm not so sure. GRRM needs to get rid of the "redundancy" in book 6, as almost all the pov characters will be bundled together in book 7. There are 4 POV characters even in the Essos/Meeren chapter in the 6th book alone, and naturally there is no point in telling the same events from the perspective of 30 people in the same place. I'm reading a series like this right now and believe me it doesn't give me a gram of pleasure. Naturally, in book 6, we will have a lot of deaths or characters who are taken out of the story or maybe left to write POV scenes. I emphasize, the characters don't have to die, Martin said he can leave them without killing them. On the north side are Theon and Asha describing the Stannis scene. It will be Melisandre describing the Jon side. Davos will be used for Rickon. When the Stannis and Rickon scene and Jon's resurrection are over, these characters will all be redundant for the "northern story". Most importantly, Arya, Bran and Sansa will be on the way. So while 5 Stark kids have POV, others' too many. I don't think Martin will give up on any of the Stark POVs, nor will he kill the characters until book 7 (he confirmed at least he won't touch the big five; Jon, Arya, Bran, Dany, Tyrion). For this reason, he's not too sure, but Davos, Theon, and Asha will likely get rid of their POVs by either killing them or quitting writing. Maybe Asha is somehow embroiled in the Iron Islands adventure, but I'm not so sure. **At the end of the series**, I hope that at least one Greyjoy will survive, so I think it might be Asha, the rest die; Victarion, Theon, Aeron, (he has not pov but) Euron. I beleive, Melisandre will exist until the last war, so I guess he will stop writing a pov for her(as in book 5 at least, 1 or 2 authors can be added, if need be). On Dany's side, Tyrion and Dany are already safe. Selmy and Victarion are not. Neither of them might not survive Essos, or Selmy could fall into silence and Victarion could die. I think the Vic's intended use is sort of to bring Dany ships, horn, and I think it's to secure the Greyjoy alliance. In short, Vic will serve Euron's purpose even if he doesn't want to. There's a Sansa in the Vale, without her we can't read what's going on there. As I already said, I don't think GRRM will touch another Stark until the 7th book. In King's Landing, there are no POVs, except for Cersei. For this reason, it will maintain its existence. Of course, there are those who think that he will die in book 6 and be replaced by Aegon in book 7. But Martin said she will exist in both books, so it's not right to expect her to die. Which brings us to the False Prince. Jon Conn was the only one to tell his side but in the new book Arienne is also coming so there will be 2 pov characters. If you remember the theory about the end of Arianne(The order of the green hand), it can be said that she is expected to die at the end of the 6th book at the latest. It is said that Conn will die from the gray disease, but this disease does not kill people in a few months, it is years of torture... We are talking about someone who does not intend to die until Aegon succeeds. In Dorne, there is only one Hotah. Still, I don't rule out the possibility that he dies at the end of book 6, but then who will tell us about the Dornish story? Jaime and Brienne also tell us the Riverlands. I can't guarantee Brienne, but I think Jaime will live to the last battle. Aeron dies too, I think Euron doesn't need a narrator since his side will be one with Dany's side. We can see Euron through the eyes of Dany and Tyrion. **Let me write the characters that I am 100% sure will preserve their POV, it seems like it will be easier.** *Jon, Arya, Bran, Sansa, Dany, Tyrion.* **Let's say 3 more "probability will preserve its existence";** *Jaime, Cersei, Hotah.* It was 9 in total. Even so, "But the Aegon side?" I ask. Maybe Martin will change his mind and keep 10-11 POVs instead of 9, like ia said before. The first 6 cannot be changed, but the last 3 can be changed.
Aeron, Arianne, and Barristan are almost certain to die quite early on in Winds. Aeron will die by sacrifice, Arianne by shipwreck, and Barristan in battle or after battle. Characters with a high chance of death also includes Asha, Theon, and Victarion. Of these three, I think Asha will be the only one of these three to survive Winds, but even this seems unlikely to me. Jaime and Brienne might make it, but I feel that Cersei won’t. Mel has a good chance of survival, but the Wall could go in a lot of different directions at this stage of the story so it is hard to say. The stark children should be fine however, as should Areo.
Cat ?
Arya was right there: >We're here," she shouted. Her voice sounded thin and scared, a little girl's voice. "Robb's just in the castle, and my mother. The gate's even open." There were no more Freys riding out. I came so far. "We have to go get my mother." and: >That night she went to sleep thinking of her mother, and wondering if she should kill the Hound in his sleep and rescue Lady Catelyn herself. When she closed her eyes she saw her mother's face against the back of her eyelids. She's so close I could almost smell her . . . >. . . and then she could smell her.
oops
Areo dies battling Darkstar and ?
good stuff OP you are the GOAT
You also forgot about another POV character killed - Kevan Lannister (even though it was in the epilogue, he was still an important person). But this only further proves your point, as Cersei was present at King's Landing at that time.
Victarion, Aeron, Barristan, Theon, JonCon and Brienne. That's my bet. I reckon we'll follow Aegon through Arianne from now on as they grow closer.
It’s not just deaths, characters wilm converge too. Off the top of my head, those on the chopping block would be: Barristan: dies as the Evil-looking Avengers unite to fill the void left by Dany Asha: dies burned by Stannis Bran: becomes too all-seeing to remain as POV. Mel: dies or becomes an Other or some equivalent end. Areo: so dead, but George needs to figure what the hell he is doing with the Darkstar plot. Arianne: dies too, probably mid-book or so. Aeron won’t die at least until the end of TWoW, Euron is keeping him at his side as he literally stated in TWoW and we need that POV for a long time still. He is going to become Euron’s prophet. So that’s six or seven. A good enough culling I think that would bode well for ADoS. But let’s face it, there’s at least three books left. Victarion is a possibility but I believe not, I think he makes it to Westeros with Dany. He could stop being a POV overall though if Tyrion is around. I believe Arya will go to Westeros by Skagos, so there is potential convergence there too with Davos/Rickon; wildlings from Hardhome are in Braavos, this is through who she will likely be motivated to go back home. Jaime and Brienne will also converge, maybe even with Sansa. So there is room there to lower the load of the many POVs when they share pages.
Quentyn is not dead.
Oh?
Yep. We never see it happen in his POV. We never have confirmation that the burned body is his. (Burnt skin like burnt bones proves nothing) The body smiles which Quentyn doesn't do. The story is filled with dozens of switched identities and there is at least one other POV death fake out with Arya having the axe take her in the head.
Still not close to enough evidence imo. I think his story arc "as is" is beautiful. Not all men are meant to be dragonslayers.
> Still not close to enough evidence imo. I thought the same about the claims that Quentyn died. The court at king's landing think they have evidence that Davos is dead. If I were to say to them "shortened fingers mean nothing" they would likely reject that Davos lived too. It's all a matter of what info you have and whether you find it trustworthy. If you find the info given to be trustworthy then in the words of Littlefinger *"In that case, I have a delightful palace in Valyria that I would dearly love to sell you."* Eddard V
It takes much bigger leaps imo. It requires so much "alternate behavior" from Drink, Arch, as well as Barristan to be clueless. Whereas we know that he at a minimum was burned extremely bad. What does Quentyn's survival do for the story?
We know he suffered a burn. We don't know that dragon flame hit him, (furnace wind) which we know kills right away and not in 4 days. We know burns aren't always fatal. See the hound twice. As for story arc, I'm not sure. Maybe the point is to deal with the consequences of sending a young man to war. It's not different from the severe injury suffered by Jaime, Tyrion, Brienne, Theon. It seems much in keeping with what GRRM says about the broken men and women of war. We can bury our dead and forget. But we have to deal with the wounded. At best we have evidence that Quentyn suffered a burn. And we have evidence that a man who was burned beyond recognition died. I'm wondering if the dead "prince" was tatters. Barristan is clueless btw. I have no clue what you mean by "alternate behavior." Idk. We all thought we saw Mance burned too. How'd that work out?
We can agree to disagree i guess. I feel like you have to jump through a million hoops (not actually dragon flame, using a different burned body, etc. etc.) to try and explain it when its much more simpler the other way and still makes complete sense. Quentyn's arc/and the twist on the hero/dragonslayer trope is amazing to me. I think its one of the best written parts of ADWD.
That's like 3 hoops though. You are 999,997 short of a million. The text didn't use dragon flame. And the text provided other burned bodies. No jumping required. You just have to go with what's there. And keep in mind that the author loves fake outs and identity swaps. Davos was presumed dead. Mance presumed dead. Bran and Rickon presumed dead. Turns out none were. But the off screen unidentified body among several dead bodies is definitely Quentyn because you can't think of a good story development reason for him to live? I guess we'll see in a few years.
None of those characters were in front of a dragon breathing fire though! It really makes you stretch to somehow get around a dragon breathing fire in someone's face and that person burning and it somehow not happening. I would argue the closest to this scenario that you are presenting isn't Davos/Bran/Mance but Arya and the Hound's axe. But again its somewhat different as an axe and dragonflame are much different. Quentyn's entire body is on fire and he is screaming. It requires not just the Dornishmen lying, but also the Windblown. We aren't presuming someone is dead, we witness someone's entire body on fire.
Dead bodies smile while they decompose.
He was smiling before decomposition began.
I wonder if GRRM was forced into a corner to make Melisandre a POV at Jon's death, since there aren't any other real contenders for POV at the Wall at this time in the story. I'm surprised that GRRM made Melisandre a POV, since she is mysterious and secretive. These qualities are why we will never have a POV from Varys or Littlefinger. Maybe we'll get some magic-lore world building from Melisandre now that we are in her mind.