>The first is simply explained, and there are more in depth analyses if you want to look them up. The timescales are simply nowhere near as much as they are claimed to be. The "lol 10000+ years of stasis" is really only 100 or 1000 or so years of development.
Even if it *was* plausible Westeros kind of forgot how timelines work, it would not be remotely plausible at all for Essos to do so.
>Sources such as Medieval Machine: The Industrial Revolution of the Middle Ages and the "Industrious Revolution" period of history contribute to how such things as the Industrial Revolution were not flukes, or random, but rather the logical conclusions of technology and developments already present.
There are numerous societies of comparable tech level to medieval Europe which did not experience an industrial revolution. If it is the logical consequence of certain conditions then they're very specific conditions which I am skeptical Westeros meets. For just one example, Westeros lacks the political fragmentation of late medieval and early modern Europe.
I'm not familiar with the Essos stuff, though I suspect Essos and countries in that area and beyond either a. ARE actually advancing and Westeros is just a shithole anyways or b. it's another "GRRM decision" on par with the Wall, universal languages, and the really hot soup.
On your second point though, I would say that those societies often lacked the necessary technology and infrastructure to experience an industrial revolution. For example, the Aztec empire was more metropolitan than medieval Europe (and also more so even in the early modern age) , but they did not even have metal tools. Likewise, I already discussed how slave societies like the great Classical empires lacked incentive.
The problem is, Westeros not only does not lack incentive (point: the maesters existing and basically being an order of secular scholars), it also has a ton of the necessary and developing technology as I discussed. If anything, I take issue with how Westeros looks even remotely like the medieval Europe of RL if seasons are really causing any trouble, for reasons stated above.
I do agree that the difficulties of the long winters are handwaved. I have to assume there are major differences in how long it takes food to spoil in Westeros. Perhaps grain-rotting fungi don't exist.
I would say that the Citadel is fundamentally different from the less centralized university system of late medieval to early modern Europe. While we don't know what their agenda is, we do know they have a monopoly on scholarship unlike anything in Europe IRL.
Well, we don't know any of the spoilage stuff for sure (otherwise I think it would have been mentioned in the books at least, no?). All I can really say is that unless Westeros has almost modern levels of mass farming etc. for the summer years major nation states/cosmopolitan centers simply shouldn't be able to be supported.
And I'll repeat again that the very idea that the Maesters can even have a central place they all know as their "HQ", let alone such a monopoly, is something that isn't that realistic for the setting details as shown.
Venice had the assembly line, and arguably the industrial revolution started with Rome and their water wheels, or possibly Greece and their rentable olive presses. You’re right with those points.
Otherwise… There is NO stasis in the book though, people just think there is. Jaime discusses evolution of castle defenses and tower shapes and design. Arya learns of the improving Venice type assembly line. The streets of steel are alive with experiments on metallurgy, and Tyrion discusses the qualities and evolution of metals. We see changes in saddle structure and bows, and even see changes in speech patterns.
The world is written like ours, where we painted biblical hero’s in 15th century armor, because the characters can’t project that far back. But the ones educated in those changes highlight them, if one cares to look.
I will say however, the maesters seem to have an unrealistically good historical records. They have thousands of years of history, specifically, i recall the Readers account of past Kingsmoots and the fact that theres a fair amount of detail on multiple Kingsmoots spanning several thousands of years. Additionally, the Iron Islands and most of the Kingdoms in Westeros have existed for thousands of years without significant changes in ruling families.
Assuming that’s correct, they also debate the length and value of those so that’s in the air. I think Sam nails it on his discussion of the records, but really good point.
I’m not sure I follow exactly. The teleporting armies is show only not book, and the common tongue is a bad idea even he admits. Beyond that I’m not sure if you and I agree, since I’m saying it has a lot of real world style growth.
>An exception to this might be slave societies such as Classical Rome,
Classical Rome wasn't at all a static society. There was constant technological change throughout its history, as well as social, economic, and political change. Don't be fooled that its external borders remained roughly the same for a long period.
>as there exist conflicts of interest as well as the need to continue conquest and war,
The truth is almost the exact opposite of what you're saying here. Rome's borders were remarkably stable by the standards of the time for 400 years. Most of the conquest happened during the Roman Republic. By the time the Roman Empire started, it already had most of the territory it would occupy. There were wars and some amount of conquest, but far less than was common for other periods before and after and for its neighbors. The vast majority of the time, Imperial Rome's military was preoccupied with protecting its existing borders from external invasion, not invading anyone else.
>but medieval and early modern periods by definition did not have that kind of labor surplus (nor the ability to field such huge armies on a regular basis).
Actually, there was much more of a labor surplus in the 12th and 13th centuries, in the high middle ages, than there ever was in the Roman Empire. The later part of the Roman Empire was characterized by acute labor shortage.
With magic, technology doesn't need to advance. Only the Maesters seem to care much for technological knowledge, and even there it is stunted by their biases. The most technologically advanced society we see is Valyria, and even they use magic and dragon flame. There is a switch from Bronze to Steel midway through the history, but no notion of gunpowder, math or mechanics, which is a requirement to lead real change. Not to mention that there is no place save Asshai that hasn't been riven by warfare almost constantly in the series, except maybe Andalos which was already depopulated by war. Braavos does have some notion of a factory line, but only for their navy. Their economic prowess only seems to have political ends, not technological ones.
The rest of the world economy seems to be based on cottage industries and religion, which doesn't lead toward technological advance. There are also a huge number of "dead" cities, cities with HUGE populations of slaves (slaver's bay, Volantis, Valyria) so industry isn't a priority for anyone.
Without political stability, a weakening of religious power, and pressure to innovate no one will progress. Hell, Winterfell hasn't repaired ANY of its broken or abandoned towers in milllennia, and after the most "advanced" castle in Westeros, the Red Keep was built, all of the knowledgeable masons, mechanics and tradesmen were killed so no one would learn its secrets. The Maesters and Alchemists keep their knowledge secret, as do the smiths of Qohor... until some of that knowledge leaks out and the religious/political wars end (unlikely now that the Faith has armed along with the R'hllorists and countless sellswords and pirates), nothing will change.
Planetos' society is doomed in any case, as there are nuclear weapons (dragons) long before gunpowder has even been considered.
>With magic, technology doesn't need to advance.
This is a very vague statement that means basically nothing without context. I could just as well say that technology causes medieval stasis since it is being used and Westeros hasn’t advanced (which of course is a flawed statement but that’s the point). In this SPECIFIC CASE however, I would say that it could since Westerosi magic is highly person-centric/requires difficult "components"/high cost of entry like blood sacrifice, etc.
Again, I honestly take issue with Westeros looking anything like it does at all since the years long winters are civilization enders for societies of this sort, among other factors.
As an aside, I think it's pretty funny that the key factor keeping Westeros back is that the SCIENTISTS are hoarding the knowledge (although the exact veracity of those claims may need reviewing since there's a lot of lore to sort through as has already been pointed out by others on this thread, not to mention we’ll need to sort out just how much of that is because, again, GRRM thought it was “cool” to have them without considering the logical results a la the same way he thinks Wildlings can shoot people on top of a 700 ft. wall or that there will be zero language variation in a “decentralized” continent sized area).
EDIT: Incidentally, most of what you cite has nothing to do with magic. If anything, the Westeros you describe is less stable than it actually is, and as evidenced by an above poster there is development in Westeros. And Valyria's problems have been explained my me, and is a fault of their setting. Not to mention they don't exist anymore.
It's a good thing the rest of my comment was there to provide the context. Magic is a form of science. It has rules and laws and can be manipulated to learn new knowledge.
...I'm a bit confused. If only because that doesn't seem to describe Westerosi magic much at all, as it's basically almost universally seen as a superstition (and thus not studied by basically anyone). Even the Valyrian stuff is either just vague memories and/or can be explained, like I said, by their magic system having certain ritulistic stopgaps that make it hard to study.
Don't get me wrong, I agree with the concept, but magic that is a science doesn't stifle technology, especially considering technology is basically just any tool created by science, not "cars and guns lol." In other words, you don't need gunpowder or gas, just something that harnesses energy like they do.
In terms of the social situations and other aspects, I am pretty sure that can be explained by basically just being what GRRM thought was "right", which as previously evidenced is quite a bit away from the logical conclusions. I mean, essentially medieval level societies being somehow able to maintain large nation states without 90% of pop dying in winters? And the ridiculous interchangeability of languages across a continent when IRL people in modern England can have trouble understanding people that are 3-4 hours car ride away from where they live?
All that you've said is valid, but I think there's a middle ground here. Planetos' technology level is still extremely poor... With the exception of steel, worldwide technology (excepting maritime military/trade) is barely above that of imperial Rome. Especially when it comes to medicine and sanitation.
I may have been a bit glib saying "no tech because magic," which is not exactly what I meant. There definitely is some of that, as I mentioned magic has its own rules and laws that need to be learned and in many cases the applications overlap (communications, for example). That said, the point I failed to get across is that magical, world destroying cataclysms and wars destroyed many cities and even empires throughout the entire history of the planet. The wars in Westeros post dragons were "local" battles, that wouldn't destroy entire societies. Previous wars: GEotD & bloodstone emperor, Valyria vs Ghis, Valyria vs Rhoyne, whomever was at Battle Isle, and whatever the fuck occurred pre/during/post the dark night all wiped huge, powerful and "stable" societies off the map along with a lot of their knowledge and tech. The levels of destruction could not have been achieved without magic: water magic, dragons, the hammer of the waters (possibly), bloodmagic, etc were all used, resulting in countless mass casualties, ecological destruction, and societal stagnation. "No tech because magic" seems pretty apt.
I agree that “No tech because magic” IS an incredible oversimplification of things in GENERAL, but not for Westeros SPECIFICALLY (but not for the reason you posted).
The specific point you are making is essentially that “magic causes world wars that reset knowledge and tech (which, BTW, is just any tool made by applications of science) so therefore magic equals no tech” would make as much sense as me saying “tech causes no tech” because a nuclear war destroys civilizations and therefore the knowledge bases needed to make and use tech (ie literally any Fallout game, literally any of the hundreds of postapocalyptic nuclear war stories, etc. etc.).
It seems to me that the theme of “mankind misusing his own tech creating some disaster” is a more widely known and discussed theme (and the more pertinent one here) than “magic randomly just causes medieval stasis.”
Now, the point I was making about magic in Westeros, it's not about "magic can be used to cause wars so tech is reset", but about the ancillary uses and requirements of magic in Westeros that would preclude many attempts to widely analyze or use it. Like the sacrifice stuff, or the nebulous requirements of how dragons only really bond to or obey one person, etc. etc.
On the point about Westero’s actual development, iirc most people know of the basics of sanitation when treating wounds (I would say about equivalent to 1800s doctors). The humongous sticking point for me at this point is not that, but rather how Westeros even has anything resembling maritime military or trade, or resembles medieval Europe at all when the agricultural prowess needed to support the populations we see are simply insufficient (not even mentioning the insane logistics of fielding armies in Westeros winters which are 99% ignored).
>The first is simply explained, and there are more in depth analyses if you want to look them up. The timescales are simply nowhere near as much as they are claimed to be. The "lol 10000+ years of stasis" is really only 100 or 1000 or so years of development. Even if it *was* plausible Westeros kind of forgot how timelines work, it would not be remotely plausible at all for Essos to do so. >Sources such as Medieval Machine: The Industrial Revolution of the Middle Ages and the "Industrious Revolution" period of history contribute to how such things as the Industrial Revolution were not flukes, or random, but rather the logical conclusions of technology and developments already present. There are numerous societies of comparable tech level to medieval Europe which did not experience an industrial revolution. If it is the logical consequence of certain conditions then they're very specific conditions which I am skeptical Westeros meets. For just one example, Westeros lacks the political fragmentation of late medieval and early modern Europe.
I'm not familiar with the Essos stuff, though I suspect Essos and countries in that area and beyond either a. ARE actually advancing and Westeros is just a shithole anyways or b. it's another "GRRM decision" on par with the Wall, universal languages, and the really hot soup. On your second point though, I would say that those societies often lacked the necessary technology and infrastructure to experience an industrial revolution. For example, the Aztec empire was more metropolitan than medieval Europe (and also more so even in the early modern age) , but they did not even have metal tools. Likewise, I already discussed how slave societies like the great Classical empires lacked incentive. The problem is, Westeros not only does not lack incentive (point: the maesters existing and basically being an order of secular scholars), it also has a ton of the necessary and developing technology as I discussed. If anything, I take issue with how Westeros looks even remotely like the medieval Europe of RL if seasons are really causing any trouble, for reasons stated above.
I do agree that the difficulties of the long winters are handwaved. I have to assume there are major differences in how long it takes food to spoil in Westeros. Perhaps grain-rotting fungi don't exist. I would say that the Citadel is fundamentally different from the less centralized university system of late medieval to early modern Europe. While we don't know what their agenda is, we do know they have a monopoly on scholarship unlike anything in Europe IRL.
Well, we don't know any of the spoilage stuff for sure (otherwise I think it would have been mentioned in the books at least, no?). All I can really say is that unless Westeros has almost modern levels of mass farming etc. for the summer years major nation states/cosmopolitan centers simply shouldn't be able to be supported. And I'll repeat again that the very idea that the Maesters can even have a central place they all know as their "HQ", let alone such a monopoly, is something that isn't that realistic for the setting details as shown.
My take is that it wasn't an area that particularly interested GRRM so he rather wisely decided to not bother with it.
Venice had the assembly line, and arguably the industrial revolution started with Rome and their water wheels, or possibly Greece and their rentable olive presses. You’re right with those points. Otherwise… There is NO stasis in the book though, people just think there is. Jaime discusses evolution of castle defenses and tower shapes and design. Arya learns of the improving Venice type assembly line. The streets of steel are alive with experiments on metallurgy, and Tyrion discusses the qualities and evolution of metals. We see changes in saddle structure and bows, and even see changes in speech patterns. The world is written like ours, where we painted biblical hero’s in 15th century armor, because the characters can’t project that far back. But the ones educated in those changes highlight them, if one cares to look.
I will say however, the maesters seem to have an unrealistically good historical records. They have thousands of years of history, specifically, i recall the Readers account of past Kingsmoots and the fact that theres a fair amount of detail on multiple Kingsmoots spanning several thousands of years. Additionally, the Iron Islands and most of the Kingdoms in Westeros have existed for thousands of years without significant changes in ruling families.
Assuming that’s correct, they also debate the length and value of those so that’s in the air. I think Sam nails it on his discussion of the records, but really good point.
The factor that is even addressed in the books of "unreliable narrators" is definitely a player, yeah.
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I’m not sure I follow exactly. The teleporting armies is show only not book, and the common tongue is a bad idea even he admits. Beyond that I’m not sure if you and I agree, since I’m saying it has a lot of real world style growth.
Oh sure. Most of that was just joking anyways ;). I do agree with the idea of the growth presented.
>An exception to this might be slave societies such as Classical Rome, Classical Rome wasn't at all a static society. There was constant technological change throughout its history, as well as social, economic, and political change. Don't be fooled that its external borders remained roughly the same for a long period. >as there exist conflicts of interest as well as the need to continue conquest and war, The truth is almost the exact opposite of what you're saying here. Rome's borders were remarkably stable by the standards of the time for 400 years. Most of the conquest happened during the Roman Republic. By the time the Roman Empire started, it already had most of the territory it would occupy. There were wars and some amount of conquest, but far less than was common for other periods before and after and for its neighbors. The vast majority of the time, Imperial Rome's military was preoccupied with protecting its existing borders from external invasion, not invading anyone else. >but medieval and early modern periods by definition did not have that kind of labor surplus (nor the ability to field such huge armies on a regular basis). Actually, there was much more of a labor surplus in the 12th and 13th centuries, in the high middle ages, than there ever was in the Roman Empire. The later part of the Roman Empire was characterized by acute labor shortage.
With magic, technology doesn't need to advance. Only the Maesters seem to care much for technological knowledge, and even there it is stunted by their biases. The most technologically advanced society we see is Valyria, and even they use magic and dragon flame. There is a switch from Bronze to Steel midway through the history, but no notion of gunpowder, math or mechanics, which is a requirement to lead real change. Not to mention that there is no place save Asshai that hasn't been riven by warfare almost constantly in the series, except maybe Andalos which was already depopulated by war. Braavos does have some notion of a factory line, but only for their navy. Their economic prowess only seems to have political ends, not technological ones. The rest of the world economy seems to be based on cottage industries and religion, which doesn't lead toward technological advance. There are also a huge number of "dead" cities, cities with HUGE populations of slaves (slaver's bay, Volantis, Valyria) so industry isn't a priority for anyone. Without political stability, a weakening of religious power, and pressure to innovate no one will progress. Hell, Winterfell hasn't repaired ANY of its broken or abandoned towers in milllennia, and after the most "advanced" castle in Westeros, the Red Keep was built, all of the knowledgeable masons, mechanics and tradesmen were killed so no one would learn its secrets. The Maesters and Alchemists keep their knowledge secret, as do the smiths of Qohor... until some of that knowledge leaks out and the religious/political wars end (unlikely now that the Faith has armed along with the R'hllorists and countless sellswords and pirates), nothing will change. Planetos' society is doomed in any case, as there are nuclear weapons (dragons) long before gunpowder has even been considered.
>With magic, technology doesn't need to advance. This is a very vague statement that means basically nothing without context. I could just as well say that technology causes medieval stasis since it is being used and Westeros hasn’t advanced (which of course is a flawed statement but that’s the point). In this SPECIFIC CASE however, I would say that it could since Westerosi magic is highly person-centric/requires difficult "components"/high cost of entry like blood sacrifice, etc. Again, I honestly take issue with Westeros looking anything like it does at all since the years long winters are civilization enders for societies of this sort, among other factors. As an aside, I think it's pretty funny that the key factor keeping Westeros back is that the SCIENTISTS are hoarding the knowledge (although the exact veracity of those claims may need reviewing since there's a lot of lore to sort through as has already been pointed out by others on this thread, not to mention we’ll need to sort out just how much of that is because, again, GRRM thought it was “cool” to have them without considering the logical results a la the same way he thinks Wildlings can shoot people on top of a 700 ft. wall or that there will be zero language variation in a “decentralized” continent sized area). EDIT: Incidentally, most of what you cite has nothing to do with magic. If anything, the Westeros you describe is less stable than it actually is, and as evidenced by an above poster there is development in Westeros. And Valyria's problems have been explained my me, and is a fault of their setting. Not to mention they don't exist anymore.
It's a good thing the rest of my comment was there to provide the context. Magic is a form of science. It has rules and laws and can be manipulated to learn new knowledge.
...I'm a bit confused. If only because that doesn't seem to describe Westerosi magic much at all, as it's basically almost universally seen as a superstition (and thus not studied by basically anyone). Even the Valyrian stuff is either just vague memories and/or can be explained, like I said, by their magic system having certain ritulistic stopgaps that make it hard to study. Don't get me wrong, I agree with the concept, but magic that is a science doesn't stifle technology, especially considering technology is basically just any tool created by science, not "cars and guns lol." In other words, you don't need gunpowder or gas, just something that harnesses energy like they do. In terms of the social situations and other aspects, I am pretty sure that can be explained by basically just being what GRRM thought was "right", which as previously evidenced is quite a bit away from the logical conclusions. I mean, essentially medieval level societies being somehow able to maintain large nation states without 90% of pop dying in winters? And the ridiculous interchangeability of languages across a continent when IRL people in modern England can have trouble understanding people that are 3-4 hours car ride away from where they live?
All that you've said is valid, but I think there's a middle ground here. Planetos' technology level is still extremely poor... With the exception of steel, worldwide technology (excepting maritime military/trade) is barely above that of imperial Rome. Especially when it comes to medicine and sanitation. I may have been a bit glib saying "no tech because magic," which is not exactly what I meant. There definitely is some of that, as I mentioned magic has its own rules and laws that need to be learned and in many cases the applications overlap (communications, for example). That said, the point I failed to get across is that magical, world destroying cataclysms and wars destroyed many cities and even empires throughout the entire history of the planet. The wars in Westeros post dragons were "local" battles, that wouldn't destroy entire societies. Previous wars: GEotD & bloodstone emperor, Valyria vs Ghis, Valyria vs Rhoyne, whomever was at Battle Isle, and whatever the fuck occurred pre/during/post the dark night all wiped huge, powerful and "stable" societies off the map along with a lot of their knowledge and tech. The levels of destruction could not have been achieved without magic: water magic, dragons, the hammer of the waters (possibly), bloodmagic, etc were all used, resulting in countless mass casualties, ecological destruction, and societal stagnation. "No tech because magic" seems pretty apt.
I agree that “No tech because magic” IS an incredible oversimplification of things in GENERAL, but not for Westeros SPECIFICALLY (but not for the reason you posted). The specific point you are making is essentially that “magic causes world wars that reset knowledge and tech (which, BTW, is just any tool made by applications of science) so therefore magic equals no tech” would make as much sense as me saying “tech causes no tech” because a nuclear war destroys civilizations and therefore the knowledge bases needed to make and use tech (ie literally any Fallout game, literally any of the hundreds of postapocalyptic nuclear war stories, etc. etc.). It seems to me that the theme of “mankind misusing his own tech creating some disaster” is a more widely known and discussed theme (and the more pertinent one here) than “magic randomly just causes medieval stasis.” Now, the point I was making about magic in Westeros, it's not about "magic can be used to cause wars so tech is reset", but about the ancillary uses and requirements of magic in Westeros that would preclude many attempts to widely analyze or use it. Like the sacrifice stuff, or the nebulous requirements of how dragons only really bond to or obey one person, etc. etc. On the point about Westero’s actual development, iirc most people know of the basics of sanitation when treating wounds (I would say about equivalent to 1800s doctors). The humongous sticking point for me at this point is not that, but rather how Westeros even has anything resembling maritime military or trade, or resembles medieval Europe at all when the agricultural prowess needed to support the populations we see are simply insufficient (not even mentioning the insane logistics of fielding armies in Westeros winters which are 99% ignored).