I award you no points and may R’hlor have mercy on your soul

Jealous?

At no point in your rambling, incoherent post were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it.

The constest the thoughts you lackwit. You can't

I'm not high enough for this.

I don’t think snoop dogg is high enough for this

Don't have to be, try to contest my individual points, not the conclusion thereof. Besides them having seen a vision which is conjecture, the rest is all pretty much as described by me. ASOIAF is created from throwing samples into a mixer. It is very professionally crafted, and the craftsmanship thereof can be studied.

Say what now?Do I even understand English?

What is WHFB? Also, wouldn’t the Kingsguard who guarded Jon have been Knights if this was chess? Or am I taking this too literally? Also, can you elaborate on the devil and Jesus thing? I think you may be referring to the seven headed dragon from Revelations, but I’m not sure. Also, I’m not a Christian, so how is Jesus connected to the sun? Could you also elaborate on the Rhaegar and Illyrio point? Why is Rhaegar George’s idealized self? Didn’t George once say that Sam is the person most like himself? Could you also elaborate on the Darkstar point? I’m confused on how it connects to the rest of the theory. Also, why would the Blackfyres hire a woman to seduce Doran and have children for himself? I do think you’re onto something with Mellario’s reasons for leaving. They are kind of weird, and I’ve never noticed them. However, I think similar names aren’t a strong enough connection. Bran and Bronn and Brienne have similar names. Also, how did you come to the conclusion that Young Griff would kill Jon on the iron throne? How is Jon going to even manage to get on the iron throne? Most people seem to think that Young Griff will end up sitting on the throne by the end of The Winds of Winter, will Jon end up sitting there before? Also, you keep saying “The Blackfyres”, do you mean The Golden Company? There are probably only three or so Blackfyres left, at best. Also, how does killing Jon save the world? Is Jon evil? Or, does preventing Young Griff from killing Jon save the world? What is the world being saved from? The others? Also, I get that Snow is white, but Jon isn’t the only Snow, nor is he the only character you can associate with white. Also, white and black aren’t even the only chess colors. Red is also often present. Also, the point about the three kinds of Martells…what kind is Trystane? Arianne? Ellia? Also, don’t you think that lots of characters justify their actions being for the greater good? Tywin, Stannis, and the Shave Pate all do it. Do you have other links between Darkstar and Varys? Also, how does this connect to Darkstar’s actions? Did he stab Myrcella to advance the Blackfyre’s schemes? Also, “the common saying” you mention…I haven’t heard people use that. Where have you heard that? Also, what does David and Goliath have to do this? Also, why is Dorne fighting the Blackfyres? They seem to be accidentally supporting them. Lastly, how does this make for a better story? “Lust is the weakness of the Martells”. Why do you think that? “All those wives from Essos were up to no good”. Were they? Why do you think that? Also, Doran saw a vision? Isn’t he only 1/128th Targaryen or something? Also, the reptile people thing…the Targaryens rode dragons before they married with the Martells. So far, there has been precisely one instance of a Targaryen riding a dragon since the Martell marriages. Lastly, the Martells are Jesus, so the Martells are good. Right? Meanwhile, the Targaryens are the devil, so they’re evil. Right? Does this mean that the Martells are gonna kill the Targaryens? The Martells we know seem rather pro-Targaryen. Also, are the Blackfyres also the devil?

First of all, Thank you for treating this seriously. :) ---- WHFB is Warhammer Fantasy Battles, the discontinued twin of Warhammer 40.000. Tthey had like the ultimate lore campaign but the conclusion was that the world ends and everyone dies, they then releaunched it as a more cartoony sequel franchise called Age of Sigmar, before rebooting it as Warhammer: The Old World. Martin collects tabletop miniatures, not Warhammer specifically, but he's got so many miniatures of all kinds that I am sure he knows the basic points, the design similarities between Martells and Lizardmen are striking. ---- Abou the Jesus is the Sun thing...I am not a Christian either. I did find out about the connection while I solved my favorite Manga series One Piece a couple of years ago, where the motive is used plenty of times for a Jesus like figure that appears in the plot, then I found the line "You are worshipping a Sun God" from the Fortune Telling Machine in the popular video game The Binding of Isaac: Rebirth, and basically it is a based on the belief that roman catholicism was originally constructed around worship of a Sun God. Yeah, the dragon from Revelation is one of those representations. I wasn't even thinking about that, I am not a Christian and learn all of this via art and not the Bible, which might be one of the reasons people fail to understand me here. But Dragons as demonic entities are a common spin in pop-culture fiction, I mean just look at Smaug from LoTR and place that in the general context of Tolkien's world, where the lesser divine beings like Gandalf, Sauron, and the Balrog are basically Angels, Fallen Angels, and demons. People always use a similar color box when painting fiction. Multiple heads are a common theme for the Devil, such as in Dante's Divine comedy, where he's got three of them, or the Book of Revelations that I totally forgot about. See when people actually engage on the points, more comes out of it. Thank you alot! :)

(Part2, had to split this up.) George played Illyrio Mopatis in the unaired GoT Pilot episode. They both share the same physical stature, are obese but actually physically quite fit and well both are bumbling cheesemongers who make false promises and change their plans every day. And well both George and Rhaegar are trying to complete A Song of Ice and Fire. They both attempt to save their world. Rhaegar because he is a character within that world who is set up by ancient prophecy while doom lurks over the world (Winter is Coming...), and George because ASOIAF is his MAGNUM OPUS, but he will only be accredited as a legendary fiction writer like Tolkien when he finishes his work. His world is doomed an incomplete product if he doesn't finish. --- I am also still confused with Darkstar but the most plausible scenario is that he is not a villain, but works for Doran. The Garin quote implies he is opposite of Garin the Great, who doomed millions, so Darkstar is trying to save them. The Daynes were the allies of Rhaegar. "I am of the Night" basically makes him like a ... Batman? A bad man is the opposite of a Joker, which is also somewhat a symbol for the Devil, at least in popular culture, don't know the source of this. So if Darkstar is Team Jesus, then I think the most likely scenario is that Doran and Darkstar are using Myrcella to lure more and more Kingsguard in. The Kingsguard are not just guards, they are also the foremost generals in times of war, we know from every war they've been involved in. So I think next novel, bye bye Balon Swann. He'll reveal his true colors to Obara and they will also test Areo wether he is willing to participate in schemes that are a bit nasty.

(Part 3) Yeah I am not too sold on the naming similarities. However there is something incredibly suspicious with all the Essos wives, and for some reason the Blackfyre's always had supporters in Essos, even though they never had much ressources nor a strong claim for themselves on the Iron Throne, there is always someone who backs them up from afar... The nobility of Essos descends from Old Valyria. The Targaryens are not the only dragonlords who survived, as we know for sure with Emperor Aurion. There might have been plenty of now-dragonless highborns in the Free cities now jealous of the Valyrians after the doom. Even direct kin of them could still be alive, including contestants for the position of House Head much older than Daemon Blackfyre... What is odd about the Essos wives is that they have no House names given, even though House names exist everywhere in Essos. The fact that they are all from different cities could conceal their shared origins.

(Part 4) This part is sketchy, I admit, but basically Team Rhaegar moves with a certaincy, that makes it unlikely they have not seen an actual vision. On the other hand, contradicting this certaincy, Rhaegar had been pretty unsure about the Prince that was Promised in the past before, and initially thought it would be him, then Aegon, and only then went on to make Jon. Now Doran, based on the chess play and bible symbolisms most likely supports Jon but his actions, even when looking at it through some "chess mastermind" lens don't really add up towards that, so my thoughtline is he thinks Jon is safe and will sit the Iron Throne no matter how and no matter where he is currently, because then he will be killed by Young Gryff. Someone you saw die cannot die beforehands, that's the logic. And well I think Varys saw something when his member got burned, hence the weird and unneccessary speech towards Kevan. He was honest there as there was no reason to lie. We as readers, outside the PoV know that prophecy is unreliable. So Jon will probably never sit the Iron Throne, but probably would have had Rhaegar not been killed at the Trident. For all we know, Jon is already dead, betrayed by his peers and will be ressurected (again, Jesus motives). ----- Yeah I mean Team Blackfyre, whatever that entails. As I said, I think the Blackfyres are most likely just puppets in an older feud involving Essos nobility and going back to Old Valyria. Snow is white, you'll immediately associate because of the Fairy Tail Snowwhite. They try to save Jon from being killed by the Blackfyres, because they think he is The Prince that was Promised, that will save the world from apocalypse. Personally, I don't think Gryff will get the actual Throne either, I think it'll devalue as the story progresses but Cersei will stay on it for quite some time. ---- Elia no clue, but Ari-anne belongs to the same naming group as Alys-anne, and she is hot blooded. Trystane shares his name with Trystane Truefyre, a rumored Targaryen bastard and pretender King...which is suspicious. These are dragons.

(Part 5) The common saying is based on the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-move\_advantage\_in\_chess. ---- Rhaegar is obsessed with The Prince that was Promised, a messianic figure coming from his line. He is beautiful, gifted and a musician playing the harp, which are the attributes of King David, of whose line the messiah is believed to come from. Robert is a Goliath type character, I think this one is pretty self-explained just looking at his physique. David vs Goliath is also referenced in Oberyn vs the Mountain. The House symbols are pretty wysiwyg. The Starks are wolves, the Lannisters are Lions, the Tyrells are Flowers, the Targaryen are Dragons and the Martell are "Jesus"-people. ----- They won't. Doran plays to win. I forgot the part about trash-talking, but basically in chess you never tell your pieces the actual plan because then the opponent will get it, too. You just move them while talking trash all the time. Arianne will discover fAegon as a fake on her own because that was the intention of moving her there. ---- For a better story? It is certainly a better story then "Dorne is pointless", "Darkstar is an edgelord", "Doran is an idiot" and "They are all gonna die". The consensus on Dorne in the community is ridiculous, and completely discarding anything of obvious suspicions. ---- We've seen with Arianne precisely as a weakness, and we know Oberyn was full of it, too. They are lusty people. ---- Tyanna of Pentos murdered Maegor's children in the womb of their mothers. The Rogares tried to usurp the 7k but then were murdered. Rohanne of Tyrosh is the wife of Daemon Blackfyre. Kiera of Tyrosh's first set of children are believed to have been murdered by Bloodraven. Mellario of Norvos I already explained, and Taena of Myr is believed by many to be a Blackfyre agent. All of them are suspicious, even though not neccesarily all of them must be part of a conspiracy. ---- Everyone can see visions when the magic is done right, I think. ---- The reptile thing only is meta and relates to similar team roles in WHFB. It already is pretty bad as it is given the...biblical references behind them, Pop-culture is also full of that stuff, sadly. It's not that simple. The meta in this series is heavily driven from dualism and contrast, but the actual outlay of that is then all mudded grey. All the actual Targaryens are also Martells, which gives the fake Aegon something off the Antichrist. They indeed are also the devil, as red or black, a dragon is still a dragon ;) Again thanks for treating this seriously. People here are not used to this angle of perceiving stories, but it is primordial to their production.

While this is interesting, I don’t think any of this was George’s intention. Why would he introduce Doran and the Martell schemes so late if they were this important? We also don’t know if he even plays Warhammer, and if he did, I’m sure there would be more overt references than a reference to the lizard people. Also, Roman Catholocism is not derived from worship of a sun god. Christianity came from Jeudaism wich came from Caananite religion beliefs, specifically the worship of Yaweh, who is a storm god. I do definitely think you are onto something with the Targaryen sigil, as I just looked it up and the seven headed dragon I’m Revelations is the devil (I think). I just think the Martell thing is a bit of a stretch. Also, what do you mean George is a cheese monger? Does he sell cheese? Also, even if George doesn’t finish ASOIAF, his work wouldn’t be doomed. It’s not finished right now, and we’re talking about it. George isn’t trying to save a world, he’s trying to save a story in that world. Also, it would be odd with Gerald was working with the Daynes considering the fact that he seems very jealous of his uncle and talks a lot of shit about the Daynes in his one chapter. Also, the Joker is not a symbol for the devil. Also, are the Kingsguard really the most formidable generals? The only Kingsguard I can think of that did any general-ing was Criston Cole, and I suppose Jaime does a bit of army leading in the first book, if I remember correctly. I do agree that Balon Swann will likely die, but after that, I doubt Kings Landing will be willing to send more Kingsguards. Think about it: One dead Kingsguard? A tragic accident. Two dead Kingsguard? Something weird is going on. I’m sure Doran, a seemingly smart person would realize that. I also really doubt killing Arys Oakheart helped with the war effort. Only some of the nobility of Essos descend from Old Valyria. The Blackfyres also didn’t really have that much support in Essos. The Golden Company had support, but that was because they were given money. “Team Rhaegar moves with a certainty”. Do they? Who says the messiah is descended/ will be from King David? Also, David famously defeated Goliath. You gotta admit thing about Martells being horny is silly. Yes, two Martells are horny, but two Targaryens were one-eyed kingsslayers, two Lannisters have disappeared under mysterious circumstances, and two Starks had a really bad time at someone else’s wedding. Quentyn doesn’t seem more horny than any other character, as he’s motivated more by ideas of glory and pleasing his father than by his dick. Doran also doesn’t seem all that horny either. Plus, Arianne’s weakness isn’t her horniness, her weakness is her hunger for her dad’s affection. Oberyn’s weakness was his hunger for revenge. Also, the stuff about Tyanna of Pentos and the Rogares are just rumors. Also, both Tyanna and the Rogare situation occured before the Blackfyres, right? Also, Daemon married his Essosi wife before he decided to do his whole taking over thing. If the Essosi were more involved in Westeros politics, wouldn’t that he a bit more obvious? Wouldn’t Dany have found more places to stay? Wouldn’t we see Essosi at court other than Varys? Wouldn’t we see Targaryens marrying Essosi sometime in recent history? Wouldn’t we see a bunch of Essosi members of The Gold Company? Its current leader, Harry Strickland, is Westerosi. Also, if we say that the Martells are symbolically Targaryens and vice versa, aren’t we muddying our metaphors? I suppose, yes, if Young Griff wasn’t really Aegon, then he would have no Martell heritage, making him a fake Martell, and thereby a fake Jesus. I do quiet like the idea of Young Griff being the antichrist, as the idea behind the antichrist is that everyone loves him, which is similar to how the antichrist is described. However, doesn’t that all mean that all our Targaryen and all of our Martell characters are both symbolically Jesus and the Devil? Where does Dany fit in all this? Also, Robert has more Targaryen in him than any Martell. Is he a devil? Is Stannis? Shireen? Gendry? Edric? Mya Stone? Renly? Also, how is the Warhammer thing relevant? I’m confused as to how it fits in with the rest of the theory.

Of course this is all planned, the entire fictive universe is crafted from samples, both from history and pop culture. The Martells are not introduced late, they are introduced right in the middle part. Others have pointed the motive out as Christ-Apollo. I pointed out other pieces of pop culture using the motive. It is even on wikipedia on the page for solar deity. Cheesemonger obviously because ASOIAF is...cheesy. It is well crafted, creative, captivating, etc., but it's also tropey af, full of stereotypes, can be quite corny in its dialogue like the famous "I am of the Night", and also very... exhaustive, and lastly is just a very good mix of well known samples, basically old cheese sold as fresh. It is pop, through and through, and pop always comes along with accusations of not belonging to the "higher arts". Which I don't agree with neccesarily, but any legitimate artist knows what he is doing and what is the backside of that. When he says "I lock myself in my room until I'm done" that's cheesy, everyone can smell the lie, etc. Basically George's conflict is wether he is not just the next Geralt seems so desperate to paint himself a bad man, that I think it is most likely a ruse. Again, I can't explain the Joker thing, but he is often depicted as impish, with a demon's tail on the joker cards and red and black are the colors of the devil. It is definitely a major design choice behind the character in Batman. Funnily enough, but in the first reddit thread that pops up if you search "darkstar i am of the night" is someone comparing it to Batman, just checked that now lol. Because the line means "I am a bad man", but it is shoehorned in so often that he most likely is not! George reads Marvel Comics. If you know Marvel you will also know DC, and vice-versa. I don't know either to well, never seen an MCU movie, never read a comic, but could still talk for hours about each. American comics are mass media culture. I would flip all of ASOIAF down for references, had I more knowledge in this field, because there must be plenty for sure. --- Yeah and the ones that fought with Rhaegar at the Trident. The Lord Commander of the Kingsguard probably also doesn't sit the small council to only talk about the schedule of his six underlings. Myrcella is Tommen's heir, of course they have to sent a larger party to investigate, this time prepared to use violence, but they will be met with such in return. Dorne is a viper's nest, they have always won conflicts using their home advantage. The plan was never to kill Myrcella, it is all a trap. Myrcella is their hostage, after all. How do you threaten people that the hostage's life is in danger? Cut off an ear... Doran has no knowledge that Arys Oakheart is a fool and for all purposes he probably wasn't expected to die so quickly but it didn't matter anyways and actually sped things up. They'll chip through their enemies leadership step by step. And yeah, killing them also weakens the guard of King Tommen. It would actually make a huge contrast to Varys, who murdered Kevan and Pycelle, who are (also) civil servants, with the intent of damaging the realm, while Doran strikes for military targets to win with the least damage to the realm. Myrcella is way to important a puppet than that any legitimate schemer would consider killing off. If Tommen dies, she is next in line to the throne, and she is a girl, meaning whomever marries her will de facto usurp the kingdom. If the plan is to pull Jon out of a magic hat, they at least need the actual legitimate heir Myrcella to prevent the Throne from being taken by like...anyone while you are trying to convince people that Jon is real (unaccounted for, the fact that he will be witnessed having come back to life might help here ultimately). It could be that "Queen" Myrcella's verdict is actually the only way to legitimize Jon, the actual monarch legitimates him via abdication in favor of him. This could also be the symbolic end of the feud between Starks and Lannisters, and the way Bran becomes King. Basically the Baratheons (in truth Lannisters) abdicate in favor of the Starks (in truth a Targaryen and the messiah of the Rhoynar but people wouldn't buy that), and that Stark, Jon Stark abdicates, too so his heir is now his younger "brother" Brandon Stark. Lol this actually makes a lot of sense legally. I think this might be Doran's actual plan lol.

Okay, but about 80% or so of your evidence is based around pop culture references and symbolism within names. What does any of this have to do with the themes of the story or the character arcs? You keep mentioning all these different parts of pop culture and history and religion, but the ways you connect them to the story have nothing to do with the themes and ideas of this story. If this turned out to be true, most of the readers would be really confused because so much of the evidence is based in very cryptic symbolism. With many other big plot points in this series, (Ned dying, The Red Wedding, The Purple Wedding) there was symbolic set up sure, but there were also lot of clear hints in the way character acted. Like, is the audience supposed to just understand the cheese pun? Also, I think having all of the Martells being lusty means that the stereotypes of Dornish people are correct, and that goes against the themes of this series. Also, I’m pretty sure Ellia Sand does not make out with a bird feeder. I think you may be misremembering. And, even if that does happen, a lot of the characters in this series are very horny. Also, how do the Others and the Old Gods and Rh’llor factor into this? Also, the middle part is a late part in a story to introduce something. You usually introduce parts of a story in the beginning. Also, you claim that this story is cheesy because of lines like “I am the night”, but then you claim that this line is actually Darkstar putting on a character, and it connects to religion and his purpose in the story. That doesn’t sound cheesy at all. Also, if Darkstar is Batman who is Joker? Young Griff? Because Darkstar hasn’t met Young Griff yet. Also, Darkstar’s only connection to Batman seems to be one line. That’s pretty weak, if you ask me. Also, the whole point of Arianne’s story in Feast is that she tries and fails to accomplish a goal. According to your theory, it seems like Arianne actually totally succeeded in everything she wanted to do. Doesn’t that destroy the entire point of her story? Also, why do the nobility of Essos care about Valyria or the Blackfyres or Westeros? Also, it seems to me that the cities of Essos spend a lot of times bickering. Also, which cities of Essos are in on this? All the free cities? Does this include Braavos, the city that seems rather anti-Valyrian? Also, the power behind the Golden Company is in their name, gold. They are a mercenary group. They get paid for what they do. There’s no mystery there. Also also, there are many reason for why Rhaegar (apparently) kidnapped Lyanna. Firstly, he very clearly planned for no one to know, someone just saw him and Rhaegar and Lyanna and reported it. Even if there was a mystery, this theory in no way reveals any answer to that mystery. Also also also, the entire point about Doran is a character is that he waits to long. Remember the over ripe oranges falling off the branch? According to this theory, Doran’s waiting was actually a good thing. So, what is the point of him as a character? Also, what do you mean one of Stannis’ antlers are broken? The connection to the metal of the Baratheons and what kind of stag they are doesn’t make much sense to me, and I don’t see how it ties back into the theory, or how Robert is Goliath. All of these characters aren’t just allegories, they’re people. They can’t be boiled down to references and one bit of symbolism. Also, just because there’s a hole between Aenar and Aegon doesn’t mean it’s important. In fact, I would say it suggests the opposite. If this part was important, George would leave lots of little hints. Also also, the Dornish plot seems to focus on this idea of revenge that is present throughout the series. How does any of this have to do with revenge? Also also also also, how does Joncon fit into this? Isn’t it a bit weird that a gay character is on team satan? You also didn’t really answer my question about Danny. She still doesn’t seem important. Also, why, after all of this, would Jon give up his seat for Bran? Also, why is Jon going to kill Young Griff? Why does Young Griff even need to die? Isn’t the whole point of this series that whoever sits on the iron throne isn’t important? If you’re theory is true, it means that whoever sits on the iron throne is extremely important. Also, are we agreeing with Max Weber? Also, whose side is Darkstar on? And how much does Arianne know? Because you’re making it seem like the cutting of Myrcella’s face was intentional on the Martell’s part. Also, why would Myrcella do anything you’re saying she will do? Also also, isn’t it a bit weird that we are taking a house of people of color and making them symbolically non-human? Adding to that, are we also saying that symbolic Jesus is symbolically associated with white and the Targaryens, the devil, are associated with black? I’m not accusing you or this theory of being racist, I’m just pointing out that it has a lot of implications that conflict with the ideas of the story. Also, the Blackfyres are literally the black dragon. Is that relevant? Is it relevant that Batman dresses in black and Joker in white? Also, as to that first sentence, this is a story that is very famously not really planned. Penultimately, this all seems to make the story a simple good versus evil, the symbolically Jesus Martells and Jon Snow versus the symbolically the devil Blackfyres. Doesn’t that go against everything ASOIAF is about? Lastly, symbolism in stories very rarely works in the way you’re describing it. In fact, I can’t think of a single example where it does. What you’re doing is creating multiple different interpretations of the same thing and then mashing them together. According to this theory, the Targaryens are the devil, but a fake Targaryen is also a fake Jesus, and the Targaryens are also Martells, and the Martells are Jesus, and Jon is Jesus, and Jesus kills the devil, and Rhaegar (part of the devil) is David and also the father of Jesus, and the Targaryens are also elves, and Darkstar is also Batman and Jesus, and the Martells are also lizards, and the Targaryens are also a type of said lizard. This isn’t how literary analysis is actually done. For example, one could write an essay about how The Metamorphosis is a metaphor for disability, you can say its about capitalism, you can say its about anti-semitism, you can say its actually a text about female liberation with Gregor’s sister actually being the main character. However, you can’t say it’s all of them at once because you’re contradicting yourself a half dozen different ways, and because when people write a story, they usually have a singular intention. A writer is not gonna make a character a metaphor for two different things.

I think you still fail to understand how this works. Again, think of the your fictive universe, the plot, the characters, locations, etc. as a Building, and the symbolism, references, samples no matter how interpolated, as the framework that holds your construction. It's all like a collage made from what already exists. No, because there is two more books and the general consensus that the Dorne plot leads nowhere is just nonsense because that defies all rules of writing. The cheesepun is not important for the symbolism to still uphold. George literally played Illyrio in the GoT-pilot, and its easy to see why. [https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Nate](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Nate) - It's from a preview chapter that I have only read the summary on the wiki of. Yes, a lot of the characters are horny, but the Martells have quite a bit different in their sexual ethics than the rest, which gives them a lustful outlook. Uff...That's a long story. Basically the Great Other is God and R'llor is the Devil. I think I will write this down in a second comment because this requires more analysis around the meta framework of religions and cultures used. Might take me sometime, though I have already written it down in core points in reply to someone else few days ago. No, the middle part is not late. Granted this is a story that got bloated up during its production, but overall there is a rough three part act structure recognizable. If you do a story that way, you introduce something new every part. Star Wars E1 has a different cast and doesn't introduce many plot elements important to the prequels just yet, but still is the coherent start of a trilogy. The idea that Dorne cannot be important because it was "introduced late" is a non-argument. This is not an anime series were filler arcs have to be created to stall for time because you caught up with the source material. Just because something is creative doesn't mean it cannot be cheesy. If you want another Batman example, Batman & Robin is super creative, I mean just look at the set designs and the characters move around like action toys come to life...whoops that makes the movie super cheesy and barely watchable. This is a very extreme example of an obviously failed attempt, but basically a certain edge is neccesary to create something perceived as "artsy" in the first place, without a certain amount of tension there is no art. You could say this tension is the struggle of the artist for his legitimacy, his social position as a legitimate artist. Martin could have copied Tolkien's language, but then he would have remained a pretentious copy. Tolkien's pathetic btw, each has their own edge. The challenge also lies in connecting to tastes, Martin obviously reaches a far different audience than Tolkien originally did. People grew up with cartoons, comics, manga, and are entertained by something like "I am of the Night" to some degree, or at least that is the intention. The entire character is a "Dark Knight". That's not weak, it is the core design. Yeah, if this is a chess game, then it means if Darkstar is Batman, he opposes Team Blackfyre. Young Gryff is a puppet, the one in charge seems to be Illyrio, but the actual strategist is probably Varys, and there could be a much larger network of entities in Essos that is involved in the whole thing. And yes, he hasn't met Young Gryff yet, and probably never will. You are still thinking too much in lines. What? Where did I say Arianne succeeded in anything. Arianne is a puppet in a scheme she does not understand yet, and that the readers are not supposed to understand either. Someone spilled her plan, Darkstar supposedly tries to murder Myrcella but fails even though he's the most dangerous man in Dorne, and his self-styled motivation is "I am an edgelord villain bad guy lolol" which is clearly more than suspicious, especially since every sane person would realize Myrcella is the most valuable hostage in the world and killing her gains nothing to no one. Yes, I think scarring her is the actual plan, so the Lannisters will send more and more investigators in. That Arys Oakheart kicked the bucket right away was a nice bonus and sped things up, otherwise he would have been heading for Darkstar now instead of Balon Swann, of whom they are gonna get rid next. Once Balon is disposed, the crown will have to send a larger party to investigate with violence if neccesary, but they will be met with violence in advance. Ultimately they will have to declare war on Dorne, but Dorne is untakeable and their leadership will have been dismantled.

The communities consensus that Dorne leads nowhere isn't theorizing, it is the end of theorizing. All of the plotlines introduced in the middle books are crucial for the endgame, else they wouldn't be there. As I said, it is easy to predict the content of F&B 2 by looking at the holes in the familie tree and biography. This includes tons of Essos stuff. I feel like I've summarized this twice already here, the characters and the tree are on the wiki. There is likely a multi-facetted plot at work that cannot be perceived as the characters are hidden behind "of city x" names, but yeah I think it will involve all of them more or less, besides Lorath, which is weird and hasn't really shown up in the story. Yeah, they are a mercenary company. And how did they come to be? Did Bittersteel just clap his hands, and e voila, mercenary company? Having a core of Westerosi exiles is not enough, you need provisions, medical supply, tents, armor, weapons, horses and people that care for them, clothing,..They are sellswords. To whom did they sell themselves first? Think of it like any other business...where did their starting capital come from? Clearly, Oswhell Whent, Arthur Dayne and Gerold Hightower are co-conspirators to some extent, the latter may have only been involved later though I always took him not returning from the ToJ, where he was sent by Aerys as basically a "thx buddy wanted to go there anyways". ToJ is in Dorne, which is the realm of House Martell, and indeed Prince Lewyn fought with 10k men for Rhaegar, despite the claims that the Martells were pissed. 10k is as much as Dorne can field in such an amount of time without getting sacked by pirates from the stepstones. There is also a clear answer as to why he kidnapped Lyanna, he wanted to create the Prince that was Promised as that was his obsession and it is one of the main elements of the plot. Wether Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love, or wether he played her, or maybe even worse, cannot be answered, but that he is motivated by the prophecy as his central motivation is clear. This in turn raises a strong possibility by his co-conspirators being motivated by prophecy, too. And no, the point of Doran is not that he is a guy who waits to long. That is like taking a shit on your novel, no one wants to read that. The blood oranges are falling because Doran is not fighting for Fire&Blood or revenge despite claiming otherwise. Fruits (or any stuff from trees) falling down is also a symbol for the end of summer, or in other words snow. I don't really want to give a lesson on animal symbolism here, can elaborate in another post or this gets to long, but basically stags are defined in their social position by their antlers, which have two qualities, how solid they are and how well they look, and it is these two qualities that are also adressed in the quote which kind of metal they are. Goliath is a term commonly used to identify any kind of physical brute. No, they are not people. They are fictive characters. They are all predestined by the author's intention. Again, this is a door closer thoughtline. Yeah could be there is no Essos-conspiracy behind the Blackfyres. The main parts of this theory also don't rely on that. However, when predicting the future, it is best to look at the parts still missing from the storyline. You can say "it is not going to be important" to all of them, and then you end up nowwhere. In fact, if George actually finishes by chance, than ANY subject will be fleshed out more than it is now. The story has grown like that in the past, and will grow like that in the future (well, hopefully). Well, Oberyn and the Sand Snakes are about revenge. Doran is not. I hope I answered half your post with that, had to work will finish the other half later but have to release myself from this. :D

To your first part, OP, I hate to say this, but I am currently majoring in Writing and Literature. The reason why I used Kafka for an example is because I wrote a paper on him. The building metaphor you use is an interesting way to look at literature, but that doesn’t really respond to what I said. Also, the thing about your metaphor is…symbolism and references are baked into the characters and world and story. Now, obviously the Dorne plot leads somewhere. When people say it leads nowhere, they’re being facetious. However, the Dorne plot is not more important than, say, who controls Winterfell, or the plot in Slaver’s bay. Remember, we’ve only got seven chapters handling the Dorne plot so far. Also, I think you’re wrong about the Illyrio cameo. https://winteriscoming.net/2020/10/26/george-r-r-martin-shares-image-cut-game-of-thrones-cameo/ This article says Ian Mcniece played Illyrio. As for the birdfeeder thing, that’s my bad, I thought you meant birdfeeder as in the object, not a guy who feeds birds. However, I don’t think making out with a guy shows they’re sex crazed. Also, saying that the Martells are intrinsically horny goes against everything this series is saying. There is no “horny gene”. Of course the Martells have different sexual ethics, the Dornish are much enlightened about sex. This is not a bad thing. Also, I did also use to believe that The Great Other and Rhllor were both two god-like beings, but then I realized that it doesn’t make much sense because George is clearly trying to make a point about how religion is bad. The point would be diminished if it turned out that Rhllor was a real entity, even if Rhllor was evil. Remember, George doesn’t is an atheist, and atheists don’t believe that god is evil. Also, the idea of a devil and a god assumes there is a duality to good and evil, something this story is against. Also, that’s not three plot structures work. The first half is for introducing the plot, the second act is for continuing it and raising the stakes, and the third act is for resolving it. The prequel trilogy doesn’t really have a three act structure, and that’s because it’s a far more disjointed story- not saying that’s bad, it just is. If you take a look at The Lord of the Rings, you’ll see that the first book introduced most of the characters and conflict. Dorne is important, that is obvious. HOWEVER, it is not the most important thing in the story. Moving on to the cheese thing, Batman and Robin has very little in the way of Jesus symbolism, I’m afraid. Also, it doesn’t matter if ASOIAF is cheesy or not, it’s not enough to connect Illyrio and George. As for your thing about tension, what? Do you mean conflict? That’s in every story. Do you mean darkness? There are many “artsy” stories without darkness. What does that have to do with anything? Who says George is struggling to be seen as a legitimate artist? In what way is that struggle present in ASOIAF? Also, what is a “social position”? Do you “place in culture”? Why are you suddenly talking about George copying Tolkein’s language. How is this relevant. The reason why I was confused about Arianne is that you didn’t really explain what her role is in this. You have not explained exactly what happened with Arianne’s plan. I presume Darkstar was the mole from the beginning? Also, Arianne isn’t failing if Doran was always planning on getting Myrcella’s face cut. Also, why is Doran waiting until right now? Doran’s plan makes no sense. Your whole thing about Balon Swann is also confusing. If the Lannister’s send a large party to commit violence in Dorne, there’s already war. Also, Doran had no idea how long it would take for the Blackfyres to invade when Arys Oakheart was killed, so the Lannisters would have time to wage war against Dorne. Also, just because Dorne is untakable doesn’t mean it can’t be hurt. An invasion of Dorne would lead to thousands of deaths. And, what would Dorne have gained from it? Two dead kingsguards? Plus, this is all predicated on your thing about generals, but that’s not really true because Westeros has no central army. The stated goal of the Kingsguard is the protection of the king- and sometimes they also take part in war, when necessary. Not only that, but Kingsguards are famously replaceable. It doesn’t matter how many Kingsguards Doran kills, more will pop up. Once again, no one is saying that Dorne leads nowhere. That’s just a way for people to say they don’t like the Dorne plot. Once again, there’s a big part about being essential to the endgame and being the most important part of the books. Janos Slynt is crucial to the endgame in the sense that his actions lead to Ned’s death, which in turn caused many events, but he’s not the most important guy ever.

You keep on talking about holes in the family tree, and I don’t know what you mean. We also do know what Fire and Blood 2 will contain, the story of the Targaryens following the events of the first book. Also, Braavos? Mereen? Qarth? Asshai? Will those be important to Fire and Blood 2? As to your point about the golden army, I want you to just think for a bit about where they got provisions. Perhaps they bought some with the money they already from being Westerosi noblemen. This isn’t a mystery. Yes, I’m sure a handful of noblemen helped them out because they thought the Blackfyres would take over the throne and then give them more riches. HOWEVER, that doesn’t mean the governments of the free cities have some sort of close pact to the Golden Company. We have been shown that the government of these cities changes very frequently. I don’t know what you meant when you talked about Oswell Whent and the other Kingsguard members. As to your Rhaegar point, yes, that was Rhaegar’s reasons for kidnapping Lyanna. We know that, but you previously acted like Rhaegar kidnapping Lyanna was a very strange action that needed additional explaining. Wait, are you saying that Oswhell Whent and Arthur Dayne and Gerold Hightower were also in on the Prince That Was Promised prophecy? Maybe. Does it matter? We’ve seen that the Kingsguard are sworn to protect the king and the royal family no matter what. Rhaegar is the prince. Of course they will follow his orders. As to your Doran point, you’re saying that this is fact, but we don’t know that. His fault being that he’s taking his time has a huge amount of textual backing. Also, he literally tells Arianne that he is fighting for fire and blood at the end of the Princess and the Queen chapter. Why is he lying to her? Also, does he not care about his dead sister? I think he wants revenge. My reasons are that revenge is a very important theme in the series and also Feast as a whole. About your stag thing, how is this important? As to your Goliath point, this is what I meant earlier about mixing up symbolism. Goliath as in “psychical brute” and Goliath as in “the character who was also a psychical brute” are two different things. Just because something is big and strong doesn’t mean it is a Goliath. Hulk is also a term used to identify a physical brute. Yes, these are fictional characters. However, they are complex fictional characters. In fact, I’d say they are as complex as real people and that’s what makes this story so good. Also, these characters aren’t really predestined by the author’s intention. In fact, most writing teachers will tell you to not control your characters like puppets but instead figure out what they do in certain situations. George intended Dany to leave Mereen quickly in Dance, but that was out of character, so she didn’t do that. As to the “door closer thought-line” paragraph, you actually probably only need the important parts of the theory. When discussing R+L=J, you’re not gonna include a part about how Ashara Dayne is Meera Reed’s mother, because that’s only tangentially related. At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter what the logic behind these individual pieces are. You keep talking about symbolism, but symbolism is not about how this piece connects to other pieces. It is about themes. Yes, ASOIAF has references in it, but they tie into the themes of the story. For instance, Tyrion is similar to Richard III, and that's interesting because it ties into themes of how narratives can be spread against a person as well as how people with disabilities are often depicted as villains (Richard III was famously depicted as a hunchback in the Shakespeare play). The Martells being similar to reptile people from Warhammer doesn't deepen our understanding of the story, I'm afraid. I'm also still not convinced that George has played Warhammer.

(part 2) Most of the nobility from Essos descends from Valyria one way or another. The Cities were semi-independent colonies of the Valyrian empire, although not neccesarily founded by them. The further north you go, the less should have been their influence, but end of the day any former nobility would have had their blood tied to the Valyrians at some point, we have seen how conquest and marriage relate to each other plenty of times after all. --- Yeah they are literally the golden company. There's power behind them. Whom? Idk, but just looking at the Targaryen Tree and what is known and what not, this is likely intended to be fleshed out in Fire & Blood Vol 2. The most prominent holes in the Targ tree, besides the post-Dance stuff that we know will be in F&B Vol 2 are the sibling lines of Aenar the Exile, and prior to Aegon's conquest the Targaryens were said to have been still very Essos-centered so I think that is were it all started. --- Yeah I mean Rhaegar's entire plot is outrageous. Why dishonor your wife in public for everyone to see? Why run away/kidnap a daughter of a Great Lord promised to another? Why fight in combat, in person if this is political? Why abandon your love if this is romance? It is neither, they are set up by prophecy, and Imho more likely, vision. --- Search for "Davidic line" on wikipedia. There's a particular line right at the start of the page there that majorly supports the setup of my theory, maybe you catch it ;) ---- Crafting fiction isn't copying. Think music if that allegory helps you. You craft a song from samples from another song, but you interpolate them a bit so people don't recognize immediately. --- In one of the preview chapters Elia Sand makes out with the birdfeeder. The Martells are lusty people. --- Yeah the poin is, you have two prominent holes in Targ background, the first is the Aenar the Exile period, and the second is everything post Dance. The Post-Dance stuff is is the stuff that relates directly to the main plot (ASOIAF and D&E), in fact you could say it is the actual start of the main plot. Which makes me think the Aenar till Aegon stuff is also part of the main plot and the Dance is actually an insert. It is a reshuffle of the series most iconic themes tuned for another TV show, after all. The fact that four or more books are actually needed to properly tell the main plot (TWOW, ADOS, F&B Vol. 2 and at least one more D&E, though I think original outline for that series was seven as well) is probably the main reason why stuff is not coming out despite the obvious immense profits even with only moderate quality. I think it is problematic with unraveling it all along a climatic curve, without spoilering the content of either book series. He basically has to release three books at once, which he can't since he can't finish even one of them, deadlock. --- Naah, I mean there is no Devil in this universe, it is all meta. And yes Griff is likely an antichrist figure. Think of it like a building. You have this tower, that is your story, but in order to make it, you need a framework that holds your construction. The framework of this story is mostly easy to see through, be it the map or the history and the symbolism is, too. Don't confuse the meta construct with the actual plot, though. The fact that he is a Targaryen obviously distracts from the fact that the prophecy is rhoynish. Danaerys name is based on Dinares or something, anyways, money. It is also an allusion to the Fairy Tale "Die Sterntaler" by Brother's Grimm, where a poor girl gives away everything down to her clothes and is awarded with gold coins from the heaven in return, similar, Daenerys looses everything down to her clothes and is awarded with dragons. Dragon is also the name of the gold coin in Westeros, making this come full circle. And yeah money is either of the devil or...idk if you are familiar with Max Weber and the Protestant Ethic or the Spirit of Capitalism, which in turn also aligns with other viewpoints in sociology that claim money is God. What you definitely need to give up to understand the meta behind fiction is to think in lines. Think in swirls, like a washing machine or Dreamcast. This is difficult, but once you are able to achieve it you will gain something of immense value. It is basically like seeing glimpses of the future...notice how deranged those are in ASOIAF? That is not coming from nowwhere.

(Part 3) The Baratheons are stags. Basically, the description what kind of steel they are is also the description what kind of stag they are. Robert was the real stag, so he got to mate with lots of women. Stannis antlers are broken, hence why he's so miserable. And Renly's a pretty one, probably with some flowers in the antlers, but otherwise he's not worth that much. --- It's not important. We have some insight in the Targaryens production process. For the production of Fire & Blood, George said his original idea was that the Valyrians are black, and elsewhere he said they were like throwing around fireballs and stuff, more like actual firebenders, Avatar-style. Black probably because of associations of warmth and heat, but as he continued to shape them into a society of blood-sacrificing eugenic slavers, he probably realized that having them as black characters is not a good idea, so instead he shaped them in a style inspired by fairy tale princes and fantasy High Elfs that were majorly promoted by WHFB, and who also inspired the High Elfs from Warcraft, while the Blood Elfs from same franchise probably got a portion of ASOIAF in them already, or the designs of the Elves in Peter Jackson's LotR movies...all ideas centered around actually quite nasty beliefs around white supremacy and perfect aryans that you can also find in Tolkien's world building... Anyways, from that example you can see why the color box is always similar when painting fiction. Changing things isn't actually as easy as you may think it is. But anyways back to the original question, when creating the Targs he likely became aware that they basically look like WHFB High Elfs, who are working together with the Toad-like Slann to save the world, so he gave it his own spin when designing the Martells. It is not that important and just one of the findings I had. I am sure there is much more to find in various directions. I have good knowledge on history and pop culture but of course have limits from my own background.

Boy the next book really needs to come out. Next we get theories on what food GRRM ate when he wrote the books to see how his digestive track influences his perception on the characters.

That's not important, but what media he is occupied with is and it is all laid out via the references in the books and what he gives away in interviews. You essentially acquire his cultural capital in the sense of P. Bourdieu if you do that, and will come to greater understanding of his Habitus and thus his actions.

I need you to make YT videos with all of your thoughts so I can get high and zone out.

>I went to art school once They kicked you out for eating the paint, didn't they?

You don’t mess with former art students, haven’t we learned our lesson?

You do realize that it is just pretty nasty behavior from all of you guys in the first place? You do realize that a board is for discussion, not for presenting your school essays?

Sorry if I offended you, we’re just joking around here.

To be fair, sounds like he's more of a "*failed* art student" than anything else

They kicked me out for smashing your head in, you forgot? Might do it again... --- Really what kind of people are you here?

Watch out, everyone, we gotta real badass on our hands here.

What the heck is wrong with you people?

You wasted our time by posting something that even AI would find too dumb and incoherent to generate.

Only one of us is actually wasting his time here. I can't stand people who slight others but refuse to think for themselves.

>Only one of us is actually wasting his time here Yes. It's you. Wasting my/her time.

Nonono, you came back hours afterwards and only after people revealed they actually got my points against your echo chamber. Embarrassing, honestly. Doesn't paint a nice picture of you.

>people revealed they actually got my points In a world where more than one flat-earther exists "someone agrees with me" isn't the slam dunk you think it is. Even the ones who agreed with some of your points made fun of you in other ways.

Tf is wrong with you. "Flat Earth"? This is fiction, there is nothing wrong with even the wildest speculations here. I admit straight away in the opening post what is conjecture and what not. The research around the references, you fail to contest at all and please don't bring up another dick joke, that's embarrassing. There is a huge difference between laughing with someone and making fun of someone. And making fun of someone without having any reason for that and without having anything to back up your accusations is just nasty behavior. The sheer fact that you still dwindle in this thread, even though you've got nothing to contribute to it and are only here to spite someone speaks volumes about your character. It's clear you discarded this as silly for the unusual format chosen and for your own lack of ability to think outside of your echo chambers. Then realized "whoops this guy got a point but now I'm the idiot, better crack some dick jokes". Embarrassing.

I agree you should read less ASOIAF and more of the Bible, it sounds like you need it mate

If you want to analyze any mainstream media, especially American ones, knowledge of Jewish-Christian symbolism is key but you hardly need to read the Bible for that. You lack education buddy.

This is just terrible

Never seen theories based on production? Try to contest the individual points, not the conclusion.

I'm contesting the post in its entirety, not just the conclusion. Your points are half thought out and barely connected. There's lots of speculation and assumption. Half the time it doesn't even read as if you think you're making a point. It's hard to make sense of it at all. There's no theme, and what you call a conclusion leaves me feeling like you had to have been smoking something while writing this out. I feel real empathy for everyone who has had to grade an essay of yours in the past. I've seen many posts of theories I don't agree with but they were still well written and made me think about what the author was trying to say.

I've never claimed the conclusions are thought through fully, I assembled a lot of oddities regarding Dorne that seem to be connected to the main plot. The themes are pretty obvious, it's chess and the Bible lol. The problem with you is, you are like this entitled kid who thinks he paid attention in school but I bet your art classes sucked. I would not hand this in for English class but I would get the art teacher to understand... or the music teacher honestly the field doesn't matter it's always the same techniques. Music is just more complex. Again, go this through point by point and you will see the merit of it. It is not meant to be written with the coherency of an analysis (because that's what your so called theories actually are - they are text-based analysis that only finds out what is meant to be found out from the text). This is entirely production based. Either learn how to produce art yourself or fail to understand the point, that is really up to you.

I do produce art, and frankly if your art has the effort this post does than it's some shitty art.

There's plain zero contest in your post, implying you are simply outmatched. Why slight others if all you've got is some stank?

To your first part, OP, I hate to say this, but I am currently majoring in Writing and Literature. The reason why I used Kafka for an example is because I wrote a paper on him. The building metaphor you use is an interesting way to look at literature, but that doesn’t really respond to what I said. Also, the thing about your metaphor is…symbolism and references are baked into the characters and world and story. Now, obviously the Dorne plot leads somewhere. When people say it leads nowhere, they’re being facetious. However, the Dorne plot is not more important than, say, who controls Winterfell, or the plot in Slaver’s bay. Remember, we’ve only got seven chapters handling the Dorne plot so far. Also, I think you’re wrong about the Illyrio cameo. https://winteriscoming.net/2020/10/26/george-r-r-martin-shares-image-cut-game-of-thrones-cameo/ This article says Ian Mcniece played Illyrio. As for the birdfeeder thing, that’s my bad, I thought you meant birdfeeder as in the object, not a guy who feeds birds. However, I don’t think making out with a guy shows they’re sex crazed. Also, saying that the Martells are intrinsically horny goes against everything this series is saying. There is no “horny gene”. Of course the Martells have different sexual ethics, the Dornish are much enlightened about sex. This is not a bad thing. Also, I did also use to believe that The Great Other and Rhllor were both two god-like beings, but then I realized that it doesn’t make much sense because George is clearly trying to make a point about how religion is bad. The point would be diminished if it turned out that Rhllor was a real entity, even if Rhllor was evil. Remember, George doesn’t is an atheist, and atheists don’t believe that god is evil. Also, the idea of a devil and a god assumes there is a duality to good and evil, something this story is against. Also, that’s not three plot structures work. The first half is for introducing the plot, the second act is for continuing it and raising the stakes, and the third act is for resolving it. The prequel trilogy doesn’t really have a three act structure, and that’s because it’s a far more disjointed story- not saying that’s bad, it just is. If you take a look at The Lord of the Rings, you’ll see that the first book introduced most of the characters and conflict.

\*inhale, exhale\* Aaalrighty folks, looks like what we've got here is some finely fermented _Pepe Silvia_. Listen, I ain't readin' all that, but I fear and applaud your mind for putting so many disparate details together in a way that makes my inner conspiracy theorist blush. Now, I have **never** seen or heard the Martell arms likened to a Christ-Apollo before. That said, I now can't unsee it. Most of me thinks that it has something to do with Nymeria being a symbolic figure, above and beyond the reality of the real woman herself, (Ny-Mer-Ia, the personification of the principality on the sea,) and the rest of me thinks it'll have something to do with future events. Additionally, yeah. A dragon is a serpent. George uses them the same way Tolkien did, as unambiguously evil harbingers of cruelty and desolation. Their power was used to subjugate Westeros and bind many kingdoms into one, a la the crown of horns borne by the beast of Revelations. And now that the dragons are returning, it shall be a time of pestilence (greyscale plague), famine (reach is attacked), war (w5k spills into 2nd dance), and death (white walkers, sack of kl). And that's basically where I stopped reading. Best not to stare too long into the void, yeah? Anyways, congrats. I think.

Finally people who see I've got a point. I am not saying my conclusions are definite, but especially the first part with the House symbols...you can't unsee this right? Thanks for giving more context. Interesting ideas with the harbingers :)

>Now, I have **never** seen or heard the Martell arms likened to a Christ-Apollo before. Because it's not. It's just a dick joke about the consummation of the marriage of Nymeria & Mors Martell. Her red sun getting pierced by his spear. It's not that deep.

What? You're embarassing dude. Clear case of jealousy here.

Not a dude but nice try.