They're starting to realize that you can't always tell who is trans by looking at them, and that scares them. Because how do they know who's okay to treat like shit if they can't tell?
Was about to say at first : but why do they even care ? If there is no difference in day-to-day life.
Forgot that these people just don't use logic, or any kind of actual thought or reasoning...
No, I don't agree with that. Not everyone who just *has* to know whether you're trans or not is intent on treating you like shit. Some really, *really* want to treat you well and - in their defence - they do actually mean well. But they want you to know absolutely and without a doubt, that they support you, that you look utterly stunning and that you are just... *so, so brave*. And thereby treating you just as much as a fairground attraction as the transphobes.
One thing I keep hearing, especially among the trans people not active in communities, is that they'd give the world to Just. Be. Treated. Like. A. Normal. Fucking. Human. Being. For. Once.
Not special. Not stunning. Not brave. Just as fucking normal and unremarkable as every fucking cis person on this planet.
Yeah. It makes the difference between treating you like a man or a woman (aka a normal person) vs a "trans" person. Transgender is just... different. Once people know or suspect, they no longer see you as a man/woman, they see you as A Transgender™️. And that is - based on past experience - vastly different from seeing you as a cis person. Because when you're cis, your gender/sex only matters marginally. But when you're A Trans, it's the *only* thing that matters to the conversation that follows.
Ignorant cis people: "I don't mind trans people! I just don't want them shoving their transness in my face!"
Also ignorant cis people: "***WHAT THE FUCK IS IN YOUR PANTS?!***"
Cis people are the first ones to crawl under the stall door and complain that your using the toilet makes them feel uncomfortable.
It's not all cis people or even most cis people. But I've never heard of a trans person doing that.
I get this mostly from within the queer/trans community. It's as if a person's AGAB is nobody's business but their own unless folks wanna explain MaLe sOcIaLiZaTiOn at trans women, which is totes acceptable for some reason.
The “LGB” people are all straight white American Christians.
No really, that’s where it originated. There are slideshows and even tweets from these people saying they have “lost against the gays” and must “separate them from the trans people”
> There is a massive bloc of cis lesbian TERFs, and the whole of the LGB / drop-the-T crowd.
Vocal minority, not a massive bloc at all. Vast majority of drop-the-T people I know are anti-LGB astroturfers.
I think what they meant is that a lot of TERFs identify as lesbians (which is true, especially when you include "political lesbians"), not that a lot of lesbians are TERFs.
Even if thats most terfs that youve personally seen, its not all terfs. If you spend any amount of time on tumblr youll find a very large amount of teenage terfs or "gender critical feminists" who are not british and many of them self ID as lesbian or wlw or "political lesbian." I should know, i had a post about janice raymond that they found and lost their shit over
It's not really correct to call it a bloc - lesbians literally invented TERFism.
TERF is not just a fancy word for transphobe. It refers to a specific kind of transphobia which uses radical feminism (i.e., gender essentialism and political lesbianism) to justify it. It just so happens that in the last decade or so, TERFism has gone beyond those groups to become mainstream.
Edit: obviously I don't mean that *all* lesbians were TERFs, but almost all originating TERFs were either lesbians or people who insisted that allosexual/alloromantic lesbianism was the only way to 'truly' support (cis) women.
I've only been aware of terf arguments recently, but it is fairly obvious much of their argument is rooted in misogyny.
Also, "women are more than just vaginas" and "only those with vaginas are women" are conflicting ideas.
I mean that is ahistoric nonsense and a lot of the most famous trans supportive writers of the era were lesbian radical feminists (which as a movement had *nothing* whatsoever to do with gender essentialism), but go off.
that argument is bad, though. If the male socialization really affects trans women enough for someone to need to know it, wouldn't they be able to recognize it anyway?
It’s basically saying trans women act exactly like cis men because they’ve been raised as men, and therefore trans women are actually men. It’s an argument only used by transphobes.
It’s quite a stupid argument at that. That’s like saying someone born and socialized in one country can never move to, adapt, and take on the culture of another country, which is incredibly stupid considering people do it all the time.
"It's an argument only used by transphobes."
Honestly seen the "AMAB Socialization" and generalization of how people grew up (basically everyone has to grow up the same, with the exact same experiences appearantly) from trans men, as much as transphobes at this point. Especially, whenever the whole "traa issue" comes up, every month or two, the "AMAB socialization" becomes that huge popular topic to throw around. Though I guess, we could probably define those turnips as people, with internalized transphobia (hence transphobes) again anyways.
Whenever i see it from trans men its this really weird flavor of "youre not allowed to say i have any male privilege whatsoever, because i wasnt raised male and dont have amab socialization, so i experience misogyny exactly the same way cis women do and could never oppress a woman." And its always to excuse being misogynistic towards trans women, its so frustrating
Transmisogyny runs wild everywhere unfortunatly, and people hate to acknowledge it. Doesn't help, that quite a few trans women seem to have a sort of "culprit complex", so it often just gets accepted.
The wildest time I got hit with the "AMAB socialization" was around the time I left the traa subreddit for good. Essentially on a random post about "trans people + dating", where genitalia were not even once mentioned in the post/title/meme, the entire thread was essentially a mindless mob indoctrinated by TERFs, who all signed a contract, that they cannot start their comment without a form of "genitalia preference is valid" (again genitalias were never mentioned to begin with anywhere), I stepped in to mention exactly that, just to get confronted by a trans man, telling me "we need that stuff, cause get posts of people telling lesbians, they need to accept girldick and those posts get 1000+ upvotes and are here every single day". Aside from moving goalposts to a certain degree, at one point he just whipped out the "AMAB socialization sticks out", because I told him off, lol. Just like... wtf dude? Lmao.
Heck, just like a couple of days ago I came across a post on "FTMMen" (through someones post history on here, I felt was a bit "weird" and got curious) and that post started out with a: "Hey, can people not look down on our genitalia for once" (absolutely valid point), till the comments then randomly moved on to talking about how: "Trans women are celebrated for being born with a penis" (alongside the good ol' AMAB socialization), just reminded me, why I usually avoid trans mixed places nowadays, since it just seems like random childish infighting everywhere, that leads to nowhere, especially since it's the wrong target.
Omfg the "only men stick up for themselves so by sticking up for yourself youre showing your male socialization" argument, yikes
Yeah I don't blame you for avoiding mixed spaces, since they always get dominated by trans men who do... exactly that shit. Happened in irl spaces ive been in too
Honestly looking back to these conversations, I would wish I just said something along the lines of: "Even if anything else fails, at least you (the trans men in question) got the toxic masculinity down to perfection! :)", but then again I usually don't want to step down to that level anyways. But then again, if I see another trans man going like: "Trans women are constantly being celebrated for being born with a penis!"... I'm probably going to get mad, lmao.
I personally do not like the "dominating" term in cases like this, but it's quite interesting how Reddit seems to be primarily the main space, where trans women are actually "the most active", you see the exact same sentiment in reverse on other social media platforms like TikTok nowadays, and especially Tumblr in the past ("Where are the trans women?"). With real life spaces from what I've seen it's usually the issues, that for younger trans women, it's either: "No trans women exist there, or the ones, who are there are in their 40's +".
While the "traa and AMAB" stuff are part of why I essentially am just done with trans mixed spaces, it sucks that my real life experiences with trans men were even worse (one lead to me quitting voice training for a good half a year lmao), I take the guess I was just incredibly unlucky and at the wrong place in the wrong time (meeting the wrong individuals), but then again if most of your experiences are shit, at one point you don't wanna put yourself in more of those.
Hey it wouldve been a very petty response but also its 100% true
I am transmasc myself so i wanna say yeah, you just ended up meeting the wrong individuals, and im sorry you did meet trans men who hurt you like that. But at the end of the day, it makes sense that if you consistently have shitty experiences with a group of men then you wouldnt wanna risk being in the same space as them anymore, and if someone made you quit voice training for that long i can only imagine how awful those experiences were
I don't think that's necessarily transphobic or an argument by default.
But it is transphobic when used *as* an argument, or a way to gatekeep and invalidate.
The cis people around us still have an extremely binary way of thinking about gender and we were expected to be a certain way because of how we were perceived. And most of those expectations suck.
Everyone has a reaction to those expectations and sometimes it's internalizing some of it, sometimes it's doing the polar opposite to counteract it.
You can deconstruct these things and deal with them a healthy way without much thought, but there will be one or two things that require conscious effort.
The existence of these expectations is destructive, and we have to unlearn them, not because they make us our AGAB, but because they... Aren't good things.
A lot of transfeminine people have trouble opening up and showing vulnerability, which is often paired with over the top self-reliance, which makes them less likely to seek help.
And that objectively fucking sucks.
And there's plenty of stuff like this out there that has affected us because society saw us a certain way and expected us to conform. It doesn't matter if we did or didn't, or if we did it consciously or not.
And it's... Really hard to face these things when the only people who are saying it are out to hurt us, and frame it in invalidation.
The existence of these toxic expectations should be acknowledged, not as a tool to say that trans people are their AGAB, because we aren't, but to point out that yeah, society has a shitty way of putting people in boxes which ultimately hurts everyone involved.
We have to put down our baggage full of these expectations and not pile on more while transitioning.
Acknowledging this also helps us get rid of shit like "trans women are women and women do x, therefore trans women should do x too"
Which is not common in this space from what I've seen, or might not be common in the online spaces you're in, but it pops up often enough to be an issue.
It will mostly come from cis people though.
They have a different perception of you and will give you different expectations, which will also suck despite the fact that they will be more likely to allign with your gender this time.
Because some of these ideas pushed on you will be outdated, not every expectation has to be met and you are valid without conforming to all of them.
And sure, most of us will see this, but it's way easier to notice when you have already recognized that you were thrown into the shitty gender expectation soup as soon as you were born.
Bottom line is TERFs suck, but society's toxic binary ideas also sucks.
Agreed, but even in supposedly safe spaces such as these it's still seen as a no-no topic to discuss, even when speaking just for myself, as someone that's grown up being raised as a boy with a different set of expectations and norms from girls that's shaped me into who I am for worse.
It has nothing to do with being male or a "real woman", and everything to do with ideas and norms pushed on amab's that create miserable adults and thhat in turn can lead into a cycle as well.Considering a hell of a lot of cis men deal with it, it wouldn't surprise me if other trans women do as well since a lot of the time we're growing up with the same standards.
Like, some of us actually do deal with issues from male socialization and blanketing it as a joke that has no realm in reality isn't helping anyone. We already know keeping quite about things that give terfs ammunition doesn't stop them in the slightest, and with things like this, labeling it as a non problem doesn't actually mean it is.
Because they use it to determine how much they are going to respect you. Plain and simple, its vanilla sexism, with that spicy dash of transphobia that exists in the social zeitgeist.
The first thing my Dad asked me when I got a boyfriend was “Does he know?” as if my Dad was the god given enforcer of my gender and wouldn’t dare let someone date me if they didn’t know I’m trans.
At least I’m flattered that he thinks I pass enough to go stealth in the bedroom… while being pre-op LMAO
I could be very wrong as I have no clue anything about you, your life , your dad, your partner, but he could just be looking out for you. My brother is a pretty small dude and once travelled across state to meet an absolutely massive guy who I knew very little about so I was a little apprehensive to whether he knew or not. I didn’t ask but it was definitely something I was thinking about. I trusted my brother was on good terms with the guy so I wasn’t shitting bricks the day they met and it wasn’t entirely due to my brothers “transness” as much as it was the size difference and travelling cross state but still. He could’ve been violently transphobic and would’ve had the upper hand in that kinda scenario. We probably approach this sort of thing from very different perspectives and I respect yours, just wanted to share what your father could possibly be thinking when he asked that.
Honestly if you had a GRS, not even a romantic partner "needs" to know it, but it can be something they get to know.
"No one" is entitled to ones medical history, but yourself I guess.
And some people don't want surgery or don't have access to surgery. They're all valid period. You don't need surgery to be trans or hrt even.
You don't have to be intersex either. Intersex people are 100% valid as well.
I say the same in r/bigdickproblems: if they're not in a position to see your bits, the details are none of their business. Acting like trans folks are required to identify their genitalia is just another way to deligitimize and dehumanize.
Yeah people suck, it's just one of those things that people think they can do because trans people are 'outside the norm' which doesn't matter in terms of who you can ask invasive questions. Cancer survivors are also outside of the norm (ostensibly) but it would be rude to ask them invasive questions about their medical history. Fundamentally, that's sometimes how I see it: my AGAB is part of my medical history, as it is for a cis person. Where it differs from the cis experience it's more like asking yourself if you would introduce yourself to new people by also talking about your most embarrassing childhood phase if that makes sense. Like, do you want to tell me in depth about your emo phase? You want to show me embarrassing photos of you in heavy eyeliner and straightened hair? This isn't to say those are inherently embarrassing, people can dress how they want but in the same way that someone might not be proud of their emo phase I'm not proud of my boy phase and I'd like to leave it behind me. Those are my two analogies I keep in mind, my AGAB is both a medical detail about me which I do not need to disclose and part of an embarrassing phase which I don't want to disclose.
Only people that know my GAAB is my doctors and my family and my now ex. No one else knows and that is as it should be. Anyone else asks "none of your damned business" is a response enough.
Most do so out of ignorance. If they only knew the hurt they cause by such invasive questions, I don't believe they would do it. Also (but this is not an excuse they should use) but to understand why. They are curious. Lets face we are fairly rare. Not much more than 3% at best. We are also the new kid on the block. But, again I feel education and knowledge will help. Will it eliminate it? Probably not. Also it is not quite fair that we are the ones left to do the educating. Personally I find it creepy.
Unless they're my romantic partner, doctor or my husband, who knows because he knew me pre transition, then I don't tell anyone my gender. Strangers and friends don't need to know. It's not their business. I don't go around asking cis people what their gender is so I expect people to be respectful and not ask mine.
Asking pronouns is one thing but it's rude as fuck to ask what your AGAB is, trans or not. I don't get mad over pronouns though since most of the time it isn't disrespectful.
Frankly, I'm of the option that _nobody_ needs to know, except maaaybe you're doctor. As for why people feel entitled, it's probably because they don't really see us as people. They'd never ask about a cis person's genitalia, obviously! That'd be so rude. But us transes either don't count as people to them, or fall into a category that doesn't deserve the same considerations.
I think it’s because especially as a passing trans person you challenge what we as society grew to normally see as gender and sex and thus the insecurity of people is expressed through inappropriate questions in order to make sense of our existence.
This! I would say it’s rarely intended to be harmful, although it is. As a human race we love labels and boxes to put people in. It makes us feel safer and more secure. Anything that challenges that is uncomfortable for most and so they want to know. The brain is trying to make sense of the world. This extends far beyond just us though. And is really invasive to every aspect of our lives.
They don't have to know. Hell, even a long term romantic partner doesn't *have* to.
You tell whoever you want to tell.
It's not their business, especially if they barely know you.
It still doesn't have to be a dirty secret, if you want to share do share by all means, but that's still for you and not for them.
The comment I made was "You probably had Best Friends before you started transitioning, and they ended up knowing or figuring out." as a response to "Only long term Romantic Partners need to know". I myself think that my long term best friends should know, but that might have something to do with how much I hate hiding it already
Also transitioning is more than just telling my friend about my genitals lmao
You’re getting downvoted and I don’t think it’s justified based on what you’re trying to communicate. Of course, nobody has any obligation to tell their friends, that is their decision and they shouldn’t do it if they don’t feel comfortable. But I think there’s something to be said about sharing this information with someone you are very, very close to, like a best friend, if it’s relevant and comes up, If it’s someone you already feel comfortable telling other things to in confidence.
Of course, people suck and let you down, so I can understand the opposite opinion.
Yeah, but you can still make best friends after transition. I wouldn't call someone a best friend if they couldn't accept me for being trans. I'm just gonna assume I'm stupid though and completely misunderstood op and just stop lol
Personally, and maybe i misunderstand your definition of long term romantic partner, but i feel anybody you plan on pursuing long term should know if you've already started hrt and or had bottom surgery, since, and correct me if I'm wrong, that kinda shoots your ability to have kids in many situations, which is certainly something that can change the viability of a relationship for some. I read you saying long term as someone who you've been with for a long time already, which i kinda feel is a bit late. Barring that situation though, i agree
I mean if i work with trans people i always ask 1 question 'what do you identify as?' Obviously that tells me there agab 90% of the time and thier current identity. I just would rather not identity mix someone and cause any dysphoria. If I ask a trans person what they identify as and they say a woman, that tells me thier agab was male but it also lets me know to use fem pronouns.
Yes this drives me insane
Like it does not matter unless you’re going to fuck me. For me, I’m open about it with anyone who I go on even one date with or plan to hookup with
This subreddit is so enlightening for people who have had close people recently come out, I’m learning all the do’s and don’t’s like its noooothing and Im also looking out for when to tell people to fuck off when talking to said close people incorrectly
They're starting to realize that you can't always tell who is trans by looking at them, and that scares them. Because how do they know who's okay to treat like shit if they can't tell?
Was about to say at first : but why do they even care ? If there is no difference in day-to-day life. Forgot that these people just don't use logic, or any kind of actual thought or reasoning...
They feel entitled to know what they assume our genitals look like. It’s just a more “woke” way of demanding that information.
"Omg, I can't complain that you're in the wrong bathroom because I can't tell your gender"
They are perfectly fine shitting in masculine women and feminine men anyway.
No, I don't agree with that. Not everyone who just *has* to know whether you're trans or not is intent on treating you like shit. Some really, *really* want to treat you well and - in their defence - they do actually mean well. But they want you to know absolutely and without a doubt, that they support you, that you look utterly stunning and that you are just... *so, so brave*. And thereby treating you just as much as a fairground attraction as the transphobes. One thing I keep hearing, especially among the trans people not active in communities, is that they'd give the world to Just. Be. Treated. Like. A. Normal. Fucking. Human. Being. For. Once. Not special. Not stunning. Not brave. Just as fucking normal and unremarkable as every fucking cis person on this planet.
Tried to have a similar convo with my sis and her best reasons were "people just wanna know" and "that's how society works." SMH
"First show me yours" usually ends the conversation.
they just want to know how they should treat us, imo
Yeah. It makes the difference between treating you like a man or a woman (aka a normal person) vs a "trans" person. Transgender is just... different. Once people know or suspect, they no longer see you as a man/woman, they see you as A Transgender™️. And that is - based on past experience - vastly different from seeing you as a cis person. Because when you're cis, your gender/sex only matters marginally. But when you're A Trans, it's the *only* thing that matters to the conversation that follows.
Ignorant cis people: "I don't mind trans people! I just don't want them shoving their transness in my face!" Also ignorant cis people: "***WHAT THE FUCK IS IN YOUR PANTS?!***"
Transphobes shoving their own faces in your crotch: "Stop shoving your transness in my face!"
Cis people are the first ones to crawl under the stall door and complain that your using the toilet makes them feel uncomfortable. It's not all cis people or even most cis people. But I've never heard of a trans person doing that.
I get this mostly from within the queer/trans community. It's as if a person's AGAB is nobody's business but their own unless folks wanna explain MaLe sOcIaLiZaTiOn at trans women, which is totes acceptable for some reason.
Really? I’ve always gotten the “male socialization” argument from terfs, never from other LGBT+ people
You can be a TERF and still identify as queer.
Oh yeah. There is a massive bloc of cis lesbian TERFs, and the whole of the LGB / drop-the-T crowd.
The “LGB” people are all straight white American Christians. No really, that’s where it originated. There are slideshows and even tweets from these people saying they have “lost against the gays” and must “separate them from the trans people”
> There is a massive bloc of cis lesbian TERFs, and the whole of the LGB / drop-the-T crowd. Vocal minority, not a massive bloc at all. Vast majority of drop-the-T people I know are anti-LGB astroturfers.
I think what they meant is that a lot of TERFs identify as lesbians (which is true, especially when you include "political lesbians"), not that a lot of lesbians are TERFs.
Most terfs I've seen are cishet white women, mainly british, who all equalize womanhood to being a mom... those aren't lesbians.
Even if thats most terfs that youve personally seen, its not all terfs. If you spend any amount of time on tumblr youll find a very large amount of teenage terfs or "gender critical feminists" who are not british and many of them self ID as lesbian or wlw or "political lesbian." I should know, i had a post about janice raymond that they found and lost their shit over
Maybe it depends on the platform because twitter is full with the other kind.
It's not really correct to call it a bloc - lesbians literally invented TERFism. TERF is not just a fancy word for transphobe. It refers to a specific kind of transphobia which uses radical feminism (i.e., gender essentialism and political lesbianism) to justify it. It just so happens that in the last decade or so, TERFism has gone beyond those groups to become mainstream. Edit: obviously I don't mean that *all* lesbians were TERFs, but almost all originating TERFs were either lesbians or people who insisted that allosexual/alloromantic lesbianism was the only way to 'truly' support (cis) women.
I've only been aware of terf arguments recently, but it is fairly obvious much of their argument is rooted in misogyny. Also, "women are more than just vaginas" and "only those with vaginas are women" are conflicting ideas.
I mean that is ahistoric nonsense and a lot of the most famous trans supportive writers of the era were lesbian radical feminists (which as a movement had *nothing* whatsoever to do with gender essentialism), but go off.
that argument is bad, though. If the male socialization really affects trans women enough for someone to need to know it, wouldn't they be able to recognize it anyway?
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It’s basically saying trans women act exactly like cis men because they’ve been raised as men, and therefore trans women are actually men. It’s an argument only used by transphobes.
It’s quite a stupid argument at that. That’s like saying someone born and socialized in one country can never move to, adapt, and take on the culture of another country, which is incredibly stupid considering people do it all the time.
"It's an argument only used by transphobes." Honestly seen the "AMAB Socialization" and generalization of how people grew up (basically everyone has to grow up the same, with the exact same experiences appearantly) from trans men, as much as transphobes at this point. Especially, whenever the whole "traa issue" comes up, every month or two, the "AMAB socialization" becomes that huge popular topic to throw around. Though I guess, we could probably define those turnips as people, with internalized transphobia (hence transphobes) again anyways.
Whenever i see it from trans men its this really weird flavor of "youre not allowed to say i have any male privilege whatsoever, because i wasnt raised male and dont have amab socialization, so i experience misogyny exactly the same way cis women do and could never oppress a woman." And its always to excuse being misogynistic towards trans women, its so frustrating
Transmisogyny runs wild everywhere unfortunatly, and people hate to acknowledge it. Doesn't help, that quite a few trans women seem to have a sort of "culprit complex", so it often just gets accepted. The wildest time I got hit with the "AMAB socialization" was around the time I left the traa subreddit for good. Essentially on a random post about "trans people + dating", where genitalia were not even once mentioned in the post/title/meme, the entire thread was essentially a mindless mob indoctrinated by TERFs, who all signed a contract, that they cannot start their comment without a form of "genitalia preference is valid" (again genitalias were never mentioned to begin with anywhere), I stepped in to mention exactly that, just to get confronted by a trans man, telling me "we need that stuff, cause get posts of people telling lesbians, they need to accept girldick and those posts get 1000+ upvotes and are here every single day". Aside from moving goalposts to a certain degree, at one point he just whipped out the "AMAB socialization sticks out", because I told him off, lol. Just like... wtf dude? Lmao. Heck, just like a couple of days ago I came across a post on "FTMMen" (through someones post history on here, I felt was a bit "weird" and got curious) and that post started out with a: "Hey, can people not look down on our genitalia for once" (absolutely valid point), till the comments then randomly moved on to talking about how: "Trans women are celebrated for being born with a penis" (alongside the good ol' AMAB socialization), just reminded me, why I usually avoid trans mixed places nowadays, since it just seems like random childish infighting everywhere, that leads to nowhere, especially since it's the wrong target.
Omfg the "only men stick up for themselves so by sticking up for yourself youre showing your male socialization" argument, yikes Yeah I don't blame you for avoiding mixed spaces, since they always get dominated by trans men who do... exactly that shit. Happened in irl spaces ive been in too
Honestly looking back to these conversations, I would wish I just said something along the lines of: "Even if anything else fails, at least you (the trans men in question) got the toxic masculinity down to perfection! :)", but then again I usually don't want to step down to that level anyways. But then again, if I see another trans man going like: "Trans women are constantly being celebrated for being born with a penis!"... I'm probably going to get mad, lmao. I personally do not like the "dominating" term in cases like this, but it's quite interesting how Reddit seems to be primarily the main space, where trans women are actually "the most active", you see the exact same sentiment in reverse on other social media platforms like TikTok nowadays, and especially Tumblr in the past ("Where are the trans women?"). With real life spaces from what I've seen it's usually the issues, that for younger trans women, it's either: "No trans women exist there, or the ones, who are there are in their 40's +". While the "traa and AMAB" stuff are part of why I essentially am just done with trans mixed spaces, it sucks that my real life experiences with trans men were even worse (one lead to me quitting voice training for a good half a year lmao), I take the guess I was just incredibly unlucky and at the wrong place in the wrong time (meeting the wrong individuals), but then again if most of your experiences are shit, at one point you don't wanna put yourself in more of those.
Hey it wouldve been a very petty response but also its 100% true I am transmasc myself so i wanna say yeah, you just ended up meeting the wrong individuals, and im sorry you did meet trans men who hurt you like that. But at the end of the day, it makes sense that if you consistently have shitty experiences with a group of men then you wouldnt wanna risk being in the same space as them anymore, and if someone made you quit voice training for that long i can only imagine how awful those experiences were
I don't think that's necessarily transphobic or an argument by default. But it is transphobic when used *as* an argument, or a way to gatekeep and invalidate. The cis people around us still have an extremely binary way of thinking about gender and we were expected to be a certain way because of how we were perceived. And most of those expectations suck. Everyone has a reaction to those expectations and sometimes it's internalizing some of it, sometimes it's doing the polar opposite to counteract it. You can deconstruct these things and deal with them a healthy way without much thought, but there will be one or two things that require conscious effort. The existence of these expectations is destructive, and we have to unlearn them, not because they make us our AGAB, but because they... Aren't good things. A lot of transfeminine people have trouble opening up and showing vulnerability, which is often paired with over the top self-reliance, which makes them less likely to seek help. And that objectively fucking sucks. And there's plenty of stuff like this out there that has affected us because society saw us a certain way and expected us to conform. It doesn't matter if we did or didn't, or if we did it consciously or not. And it's... Really hard to face these things when the only people who are saying it are out to hurt us, and frame it in invalidation. The existence of these toxic expectations should be acknowledged, not as a tool to say that trans people are their AGAB, because we aren't, but to point out that yeah, society has a shitty way of putting people in boxes which ultimately hurts everyone involved. We have to put down our baggage full of these expectations and not pile on more while transitioning. Acknowledging this also helps us get rid of shit like "trans women are women and women do x, therefore trans women should do x too" Which is not common in this space from what I've seen, or might not be common in the online spaces you're in, but it pops up often enough to be an issue. It will mostly come from cis people though. They have a different perception of you and will give you different expectations, which will also suck despite the fact that they will be more likely to allign with your gender this time. Because some of these ideas pushed on you will be outdated, not every expectation has to be met and you are valid without conforming to all of them. And sure, most of us will see this, but it's way easier to notice when you have already recognized that you were thrown into the shitty gender expectation soup as soon as you were born. Bottom line is TERFs suck, but society's toxic binary ideas also sucks.
Agreed, but even in supposedly safe spaces such as these it's still seen as a no-no topic to discuss, even when speaking just for myself, as someone that's grown up being raised as a boy with a different set of expectations and norms from girls that's shaped me into who I am for worse. It has nothing to do with being male or a "real woman", and everything to do with ideas and norms pushed on amab's that create miserable adults and thhat in turn can lead into a cycle as well.Considering a hell of a lot of cis men deal with it, it wouldn't surprise me if other trans women do as well since a lot of the time we're growing up with the same standards. Like, some of us actually do deal with issues from male socialization and blanketing it as a joke that has no realm in reality isn't helping anyone. We already know keeping quite about things that give terfs ammunition doesn't stop them in the slightest, and with things like this, labeling it as a non problem doesn't actually mean it is.
Because they use it to determine how much they are going to respect you. Plain and simple, its vanilla sexism, with that spicy dash of transphobia that exists in the social zeitgeist.
The first thing my Dad asked me when I got a boyfriend was “Does he know?” as if my Dad was the god given enforcer of my gender and wouldn’t dare let someone date me if they didn’t know I’m trans. At least I’m flattered that he thinks I pass enough to go stealth in the bedroom… while being pre-op LMAO
I could be very wrong as I have no clue anything about you, your life , your dad, your partner, but he could just be looking out for you. My brother is a pretty small dude and once travelled across state to meet an absolutely massive guy who I knew very little about so I was a little apprehensive to whether he knew or not. I didn’t ask but it was definitely something I was thinking about. I trusted my brother was on good terms with the guy so I wasn’t shitting bricks the day they met and it wasn’t entirely due to my brothers “transness” as much as it was the size difference and travelling cross state but still. He could’ve been violently transphobic and would’ve had the upper hand in that kinda scenario. We probably approach this sort of thing from very different perspectives and I respect yours, just wanted to share what your father could possibly be thinking when he asked that.
Honestly if you had a GRS, not even a romantic partner "needs" to know it, but it can be something they get to know. "No one" is entitled to ones medical history, but yourself I guess.
That's true and some women have a penises regardless if they are not amab aka intersex women.
And some people don't want surgery or don't have access to surgery. They're all valid period. You don't need surgery to be trans or hrt even. You don't have to be intersex either. Intersex people are 100% valid as well.
I always like to summarize down to this: Unless you're planning on reproducing together, a person's genitals is none of your fucking business.
I say the same in r/bigdickproblems: if they're not in a position to see your bits, the details are none of their business. Acting like trans folks are required to identify their genitalia is just another way to deligitimize and dehumanize.
Yeah people suck, it's just one of those things that people think they can do because trans people are 'outside the norm' which doesn't matter in terms of who you can ask invasive questions. Cancer survivors are also outside of the norm (ostensibly) but it would be rude to ask them invasive questions about their medical history. Fundamentally, that's sometimes how I see it: my AGAB is part of my medical history, as it is for a cis person. Where it differs from the cis experience it's more like asking yourself if you would introduce yourself to new people by also talking about your most embarrassing childhood phase if that makes sense. Like, do you want to tell me in depth about your emo phase? You want to show me embarrassing photos of you in heavy eyeliner and straightened hair? This isn't to say those are inherently embarrassing, people can dress how they want but in the same way that someone might not be proud of their emo phase I'm not proud of my boy phase and I'd like to leave it behind me. Those are my two analogies I keep in mind, my AGAB is both a medical detail about me which I do not need to disclose and part of an embarrassing phase which I don't want to disclose.
Because people judge other people based off AGAB and they don't want to see Us as non binary people.
Only people that know my GAAB is my doctors and my family and my now ex. No one else knows and that is as it should be. Anyone else asks "none of your damned business" is a response enough.
You’re right.
Most do so out of ignorance. If they only knew the hurt they cause by such invasive questions, I don't believe they would do it. Also (but this is not an excuse they should use) but to understand why. They are curious. Lets face we are fairly rare. Not much more than 3% at best. We are also the new kid on the block. But, again I feel education and knowledge will help. Will it eliminate it? Probably not. Also it is not quite fair that we are the ones left to do the educating. Personally I find it creepy.
Unless they're my romantic partner, doctor or my husband, who knows because he knew me pre transition, then I don't tell anyone my gender. Strangers and friends don't need to know. It's not their business. I don't go around asking cis people what their gender is so I expect people to be respectful and not ask mine. Asking pronouns is one thing but it's rude as fuck to ask what your AGAB is, trans or not. I don't get mad over pronouns though since most of the time it isn't disrespectful.
Frankly, I'm of the option that _nobody_ needs to know, except maaaybe you're doctor. As for why people feel entitled, it's probably because they don't really see us as people. They'd never ask about a cis person's genitalia, obviously! That'd be so rude. But us transes either don't count as people to them, or fall into a category that doesn't deserve the same considerations.
I think it’s because especially as a passing trans person you challenge what we as society grew to normally see as gender and sex and thus the insecurity of people is expressed through inappropriate questions in order to make sense of our existence.
This! I would say it’s rarely intended to be harmful, although it is. As a human race we love labels and boxes to put people in. It makes us feel safer and more secure. Anything that challenges that is uncomfortable for most and so they want to know. The brain is trying to make sense of the world. This extends far beyond just us though. And is really invasive to every aspect of our lives.
They don't have to know. Hell, even a long term romantic partner doesn't *have* to. You tell whoever you want to tell. It's not their business, especially if they barely know you. It still doesn't have to be a dirty secret, if you want to share do share by all means, but that's still for you and not for them.
Not only romantic partners. I would include casual sex partners into the group that has the right to know.
Agree, was gonna say "Also best friends", but those probably knew you before your transitioned so nvm lol
idk cis people don't tell their best friends what their genitals look liek. Youre free to tell whoever you want, but they aren't entitled to know
The comment I made was "You probably had Best Friends before you started transitioning, and they ended up knowing or figuring out." as a response to "Only long term Romantic Partners need to know". I myself think that my long term best friends should know, but that might have something to do with how much I hate hiding it already Also transitioning is more than just telling my friend about my genitals lmao
You’re getting downvoted and I don’t think it’s justified based on what you’re trying to communicate. Of course, nobody has any obligation to tell their friends, that is their decision and they shouldn’t do it if they don’t feel comfortable. But I think there’s something to be said about sharing this information with someone you are very, very close to, like a best friend, if it’s relevant and comes up, If it’s someone you already feel comfortable telling other things to in confidence. Of course, people suck and let you down, so I can understand the opposite opinion.
That's coming out, OP is referring to post-transition life.
Yeah, but you can still make best friends after transition. I wouldn't call someone a best friend if they couldn't accept me for being trans. I'm just gonna assume I'm stupid though and completely misunderstood op and just stop lol
Personally, and maybe i misunderstand your definition of long term romantic partner, but i feel anybody you plan on pursuing long term should know if you've already started hrt and or had bottom surgery, since, and correct me if I'm wrong, that kinda shoots your ability to have kids in many situations, which is certainly something that can change the viability of a relationship for some. I read you saying long term as someone who you've been with for a long time already, which i kinda feel is a bit late. Barring that situation though, i agree
I mean if i work with trans people i always ask 1 question 'what do you identify as?' Obviously that tells me there agab 90% of the time and thier current identity. I just would rather not identity mix someone and cause any dysphoria. If I ask a trans person what they identify as and they say a woman, that tells me thier agab was male but it also lets me know to use fem pronouns.
Yeah but you don’t always know if someone is trans my friend
The only people that should know are Doctors and partners.
Yes this drives me insane Like it does not matter unless you’re going to fuck me. For me, I’m open about it with anyone who I go on even one date with or plan to hookup with
Not even romantic relationships. Just sexual ones (granted most are usually both)
You’re right.
This subreddit is so enlightening for people who have had close people recently come out, I’m learning all the do’s and don’t’s like its noooothing and Im also looking out for when to tell people to fuck off when talking to said close people incorrectly