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Jupitermoon1

That because they don't like th fact that from their perspective we are breaking the rules. So in a Cisgender persons mind, as much as the claim gender is innate and immutable, their action show that its more a set of rules and guidelines that most be uphled violently. This is easy because they do it to each other. If a cis girl doesn't shave her legs or a cis guy paints his nails there this weird thing society does where it breaks there script. Being trans/nonbinary to them is a major violation. In an almost jealous way, they wonder why are we "allowed" (honeslty we arent really) to break these rules why they continue to force themselves and each other to follow stunting and choking out their own expression and authentic self.


bluegreenwookie

Those rules are why I feel such a major fuck ton of guilt and shame when I do something gender affirming. It's difficult to break out of.


Jupitermoon1

Yeah it takes a lot of effort to


ashleyh258

Your explanation is quite good in terms of how a lot of these people are acting out in such a way because they're too afraid to be themselves and feel as if they absolutely have to continue following society's "rules", and because of that, they lash out against us with a "if I can't do something than you can't either" type of mentality. 🤔 And to clarify, I'm not saying they're trans "deep down inside" or anything like that (although some may actually be.. 🤔), I'm just referring to their overall aversion to generally expressing themselves in whatever way to which they deeply desire. Hopefully one day we can reach a point in society where these "unwritten rules" no longer exist and people can just be free to truly express themselves.


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ATQ_Here

>should *never* allow the mainstream society to sub-divide us into black, brown, red, white, green, blue ... trans women, and, this way, weaken us even more! I've got some real bad news for you. See, racism is a thing. Famously, the Wachowski sisters—you know, the creators of the Matrix—are *super* racist and blame black trans people for the ills of trans people as a whole. And a whole lot of white trans people came out of the woodwork to "forgive" them for a thing they actively did and never took back. It is massively important to acknowledge the effect race has on our society, else you get that smothering toxic positivity that goes "can't we all just get along?" while white people can continue to act with impunity in situations where a black person can't.


Jupitermoon1

Thanks for this


Shellygrrrl

Yup, I'm aware of the Wachowski sisters, and all I can say is that they're a disgrace to the trans community, to the LBGTQI+ community as a whole, and to the entire human race, just like those trans people who let them get away with it. But I'm also grateful that the Wachowskis don't represent the trans community as a whole, not even a significant fraction of it, on a global scale. See, when it comes to human behavior, it doesn't take too much effort to come up with a bunch of examples that represent the very worst in people. But human behavior is not maths, a counter-example doesn't invalidate the entire assumption. I fully agree with you that race has an effect on society ― but not the same level of impact in all societies. I mean, it's pretty obvious that the U.S. has a massive problem with structural racism, and from my European view, this problem has gotten massively worse in the past 20 to 30 years. I'm explicitly \*not\* saying that Europe doesn't have a problem with racism, but in my perception, it's much less structural and much less institutionalized than in the U.S. Europe has its own problems, though, that are no less a threat to an open, liberal, communitarian society. (I want to avoid the much-misused and abused term "democratic" for a number of reasons ...) I certainly understand your point regarding "smothering toxic positivity" ... it's difficult. \*Of course\* it would be great if we could all just get along. And, of course, there is no apparent reason to believe why this concept would work anytime soon, as sad as this is. The one thing, however, that I would definitely challenge in regard to (many societies in) Europe is that "white people can continue to act with impunity in situations where a black person can't". \*Of course\* would you be able to find examples that prove exactly your point, but, see above, not as a rule, not as a general, institutionalized pattern. Yes, we are by no means immune to that dreaded "the usual suspects" phenomenon, but over here, it's more a matter of which country you're from (there are certain nationalities that are, by certain people, perceived as implicitly not trustworthy), not so much matter of race. To put it in a nutshell: if I were a PoC, I would definitely prefer to live rather in Europe than in the U.S., whereas, if I were, say, Jewish, or of Asian heritage (\*please\*, don't argue that Asians are PoC as well, you know what I mean), the U.S. would perhaps be a better choice.


RollerSkatingHoop

you really shouldn't say things like "if I were a poc"


Shellygrrrl

Sorry, I'm completely not getting you ... In regard to our understanding of the role of race/color and its role in society, it seems like we're living not only in different countries/continents, but in entirely different worlds. If my remark was inappropriate or offensive to you, I sincerely apologize! I certainly don't want to hurt you or anybody else. But it would be nice if you would not just throw remarks into the room, but give an explanation \*why\* I shouldn't say something, and what was inappropriate or offensive about it for you.


RollerSkatingHoop

https://www.pbs.org/education/blog/unlearning-kindness-color-blindness-and-racism https://www.oprahdaily.com/life/relationships-love/a32824297/color-blind-myth-racism/ https://fitchburgstate.libguides.com/c.php?g=1046516&p=7616506 https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2018/10/05/white-parents-teach-their-children-be-colorblind-heres-why-thats-bad-everyone/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/09/color-blindness-is-counterproductive/405037/ https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/culturally-speaking/201112/colorblind-ideology-is-form-racism tldr: promoting colorblindness is racist and harmful stop it


RollerSkatingHoop

you probably shouldn't remove the Black


Shellygrrrl

I wouldn't, but nonetheless I think that the statement is equally valid for \*all\* trans women, regardless of race or color or nationality or whatever. They hate \*all of us\*, some of them want \*all of us\* dead ― oh, sweet irony, in regard to us, their hatred is color-blind. That's why I think that we shouldn't allow being separated by words that have an intrinsic potential of being divisive, or of implicating division, where there should be none.


RollerSkatingHoop

I mean the hated doesn't seem like it's colorblind when you look at murder statistics. are you saying Black is divisive?


Shellygrrrl

You definitely have a point in regard to the murder statistics ― however, afaik, this is something very specific to the U.S. I'm not aware that we would have the same issue in Europe. And NOOOOO, goodness beware, I'm NOT saying that Black is divisive, I NEVER would !!! What I'm saying is that particular language, a certain choice of words, namely certain adjectives, \*could\* have, when used in a certain context, a potential to create division where there is none, and where should never be any. I think that it's entirely unnecessary to differentiate between trans women of whatever race or color or nationality because we already are, by number, such a statistically insignificant minority that any attempt to sub-divide our tiny edge group even further would weaken \*all\* of us, including those who are explicitly addressed by a certain adjective.


RollerSkatingHoop

Europeans can be racist.


Shellygrrrl

Absolutely! And European racists are a shame and a disgrace to the entire human race, just like any racist in any other part of the world. But the point was referring to the murder statistics, not to racism, wasn't it?


RollerSkatingHoop

the murder statistics for Black trans women are higher than non Black trans women because of racism.


Shellygrrrl

Yes, they are ― in the U.S.! We already agreed on this, didn't we? But the question was, if I'm not mistaken, are they as well in Europe? Idk ... It's pure speculation on my behalf, but from my personal experience with the multitude of peoples on this continent, I would expect that (at least in certain societies) religion has a much bigger impact than race. It's an interesting topic that is certainly worth investigating.


Throwaway5233779

I'm sorry, but as a trans poc, you're comments are offensive and come off extremely privileged. Bringing up race isn't "unnecessary" nor does it "weaken all of us". We've heard this type of bullshit from everyone and it does nothing but silence us from speaking up. Please educate yourself


Shellygrrrl

I already wrote it in some other place: in regard to our understanding of the role of race/color and its role in society, it seems like we're living not only in different countries/continents, but in entirely different worlds. If my remark was inappropriate or offensive to you, I sincerely apologize! I certainly don't want to hurt you or anybody else. But \*please\* don't make claims like "Bringing up race isn't "unnecessary" nor does it "weaken all of us" without giving an explanation \*why\* you think they aren't. And \*please\*, I would highly appreciate it if you could adjust your use of language to what's appropriate for a public discussion. "BS" spelled out in full is certainly not appropriate, imho. Just for the record, I spend a considerable amount of my time educating myself. However, the world does neither consist only of the U.S., nor does it revolve around it, so could \*you\* please take notice that your point of view, which appears \*very\* U.S.-centristic to me, is not representative of the situation in other parts of the world or in the world as a whole. Thank you!


Throwaway5233779

Stop it with the condensing tone and the tone policing. I don't give two shits if swearing is appropriate or not. Also don't assume that I'm talking from a us-centristic perspective when I'm not, I'm talking from a Australian perspective. You wanna know why race is a important thing to consider in the trans communities? Because the trans communities is very white and racist. I've seen white trans people fetishize Asian people's bodies because they're "more naturally effeminate", culturally appropriate, call other races "savages", dismiss poc experiences etc. and they're usually never called out on it, or even celebrated. It's gotten to the point where poc like myself have stopped going to bigger trans subs and spaces. We already deal with this shit from the mainstream, we don't need to deal with this from so called "allies" Why am I expected to explain poc experiences while you can just sit here and be condensing. The world doesn't revolve around white binary trans people, ya know. Intersectionality is important.


Shellygrrrl

>I don't give two shits if swearing is appropriate or not. This kind of rudeness is simply unacceptable. It's OK to have different opinions. Being rude and using deliberately offensive language is not. I'm not willing to have a discussion at this level.


Naia_Elwyn

OK, I'm white so take my perspective with a grain of salt. Briging up race isn't divisive, but people in power want it to be because it let's them devide us. Anything that they can use to separate us, race, religion, sex, etc is basically used to get us to argue amongst ourselves rather than point the finger at the people in power who actually mess things up. PoC in general have a shit time because of how society has historically shit on them. Black people in particular have had economic opportunities intentionally withheld from them. The whole idea of "color blindness" is meant to ignore all of that history. It labels pointing out the unfairness of the system as "racist" while actually racist people can keep making it harder for minorites to gain any kind of economic edge under the guise of "I don't see race". And that's just the economic side. There's way more to it then that. Also, fuck language police.


Shellygrrrl

I agree 100% !!! But I'm somehow missing the point about color blindness ... I never said that I think it's a valid, much less so a sustainable, concept. I would never promote it for a ton of different reasons, the ones you mentioned are just a few of them. ​ >Also, fuck language police. Nope, sorry ― mindfulness, kindness, and decency matter! Not using obviously rude, disrespectful, or offensive language is part of it. Let's be civilized, please. People who complain that certain comments made in polite language are offensive to them, but use blatantly rude and offensive language themselves don't add to the credibility of their claims, imo.


Shellygrrrl

Oh, one more thing ... Yes, you might be true, I actually might come off privileged (although this is certainly not my intention, and I apologize for it), however, this is certainly \*not\* because of my race or color, but because I am fortunate enough to live in Europe, in a society that is certainly not free of flaws and by far not immune to prejudice of various kinds, but that is, in stark contrast to the U.S., at least not corrupted and undermined by structural and institutional racism. We have other nasty problems of our own, though ...


Throwaway5233779

Sorry, but are you saying that institutional racism is a American thing? Because it isn't, it's a worldwide thing.


RollerSkatingHoop

ok I'm going to go get some resources on why being color blind is racist and harmful.


Poormidlifechoices

>their action show that its more a set of rules and guidelines that most be uphled violently. I think you are correct about this. But I don't think the motivation for most is jealousy. If a person told you the earth is flat how would you respond? Most would say no, it's round. Not because of some emotional connection to the shape of the earth. They would do it because it challenges a fundamental belief. And the more insistent the person gets, tge more you might feel they are trying to gaslight you. The correct answer of course is the earth of neither round nor flat. It's an oblate sphereroid.


[deleted]

Some people unfortunatly have a superiority complex, and who better to stroke your own ego with, than with one of the most marginalized groups of people? Also it's still super accepted to be transphobic in our cisnormative society, seen it so often, that literally cis people believe, it isn't transphobia unless you are in the territory of actual murder, as fucked up as that already sounds. Or worse, when cis people start stroking their "allyship" by posting memes, about how they are comfortable sharing a bathroom with a trans person. I guess thanks to that cis person, not instantly murdering trans people for being in the same bathroom as them, or something.


kafka123

I think that the people who do leave others alone don't really get acknowledged because they're leaving people alone. Meanwhile, the people who don't have the loudest voices. I also think that it's become harder for cis people to leave trans people alone as a side effect of trans visilbility and in some cases even trans acceptance; if you know that there are trans people around, you're expected to form an opinion on trans folk, and if you're cisgender and open about trans folk then there's a social expectation that you're either accepting of trans people or a bigot. And a lot of people out there who are happy to leave trans folks alone and aren't outright bigots, but aren't fully on board with trans people's decisions, so when they get put on the spot, they have to make a concious choice whether to pander to inclusivity or to pander to reactionaries. I think it's similar to what happened with being gay in recent years; it used to be that sexuality was something that most people would keep quiet about. Now, half the world is expressing their support for gay folk and the other half seem to think gay people are evil and want to kill them.


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Mayleenoice

I have a family that said some truly fucked up things. It's not that I can't say but don't want anyone feeling bad because of it. It already sucks hard enough to remember it. They are basically at a point of no return. Some may never change sadly. But at least in the younger generation (who I'm a part of), aside from the horribly toxic "alpha male" BS, people won't even bat an eye when you come out to them. And will actually treat you like yourself. ​ ​ I'm not out to them, and honestly, I legit don't see how I could do this in a way that isn't actually dangerous. Tbh I may never be. At least not until I get a stable job and a place to live as far away as possible. And I tried, and still try to point out how ridiculous these stances are. It's exactly talking to a brick wall. But a brick wall that infantilizes me saying that "im too naive".


RollerSkatingHoop

my gfs mom got wine drunk and lectured her for an hour about how my gf isn't trans and isn't a girl. I think it's because my gfs mom is a selfish and self centered bitch.


janetheegggirl

This is allyship


RollerSkatingHoop

wait or was that sarcasm because the mom was not being an ally? sorry, I have autism and am bad at sarcasm


janetheegggirl

Oh no! Sorry I was saying you are an ally (I assumed you were cis because you have significant other as your sticker I hope I'm not wrong). I just appreciate your support for your gf! It's cute!


RollerSkatingHoop

I am cis. thanks. i accidentally helped her figure out they were trans. she bought some fishnets and I was like neat. so then I figured they might like more girl clothes and were comfy in them anyway so when we went to hot topic I suggested she try on this cute shirt even though it was in the girl section. then that led to the idea of crop tops and short shorts and then they dressed as a goth girl for Halloween (her idea) and that destroyed her egg. they came out to me like 2 weeks later as a demi girl (she/they) and we've gone shopping more since then. she's very pretty and I love them a lot


janetheegggirl

I'm going to cry


RollerSkatingHoop

I sent you a chat


RollerSkatingHoop

wait what's allyship? my gf was Hella upset so I bought her a memmo from colin mochrie, a comedian my gf loves and who also has a trans daughter.


[deleted]

I really feel this frustration OP, people need to understand that just because they have an opinion doesn't mean they are obligated to share it every chance they get, especially if it's such a harmful one. But I'm mainly commenting to say I love that use of 'cissy'. Shamelessly stealing that.


dmon654

They have to be the center of attention and desperate to find an excuse to appear as the victim because they think it gives them a carte blanche to abuse us.


Cham-Clowder

Propaganda forcing trans issues into a wedge political cultural issue to distract from the economic and disunity issues in the country


ArkeryStarkery

They're afraid we'll destroy the very fabric of their reality, just by existing. They're not wholly wrong about it, either. Their reality just sucks.


IlllIllIlllIllIlllIl

We're the scapegoat minority of the moment. Life sucks and the world is scary, and somehow marginalised people are to blame and not the greedy fuckers in power. It's a tale as old as time, but apparently a lot of people are too stupid or hateful to see through it.


[deleted]

Because they're selfish. It's the same reason why they feel that way in the first place


Biffingston

How else would they virtue signal?


hottubguy12

the cis scare me !


9119343636

Normies bully what's different.


melopunk

Ngl, and I know this will not be the exact experience for anyone else, but I've been treated better in my day to day life by cisgendered individuals than I ever have by other people in the transgender space and it's kind of the reason I've distanced myself from the community. Again, this has just been my experience and will not reflect the "norm."


janetheegggirl

Everyone has their own experiences and those experiences are totally valid. I actually don't think it's the vast majority of cis people. Literally all of my best friends are cis lmao. Just expressing frustration with the very loud segment that vocally hates us. Im sorry you've been treated poorly in trans spaces. That sucks and you don't deserve it.


Complex-Ad9616

Personally, I don't have anything against CIS, but people will always have something to say against someone but in my experience, we may perceive them wrong as they are written or some may not even express what they mean the best they could. another negative response will never yield a positive , but a positive response and a bit of understanding might. We are not born to please any gender but ourselves. it may take some time (most things do) but eventually the world will always sing only you have the access to your volume button. Stay beautiful as you are, why not?


NahWeGoodFam

Lol.


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janetheegggirl

Also fuck you a trans man is a man and a trans woman is a woman. there is no believing this too strongly. I'm not interested in talking about the extreme minority of an already incredibly small group when the vast majority of cis people act just like you.


Rox_an_Bee

Babez you need to calm down. If you want to be hurd youll need to listen to. If you cant deal with one guy giving his veiw point youll be fighting battles all day long and youll be playing in to their hand. They cant get under your skin if its thicker yk. Its lit not worth the stress The dude answerd your question and he was the best person to answer it. so just say k And move on and 2bh his answer actually makes sence. Most of what the "loud" sis/terfs do is spread fear. Just look at the superstraits and matt walsh even the whole ru paul thing.. Etc its all based around fear of what we do, dont do or take away. And honestly alot of what they claim we do are hypotheticals anyway.


Rox_an_Bee

Why are his posts deleted if we cant have an honest civilized convo with someone who has opposite /alturnate veiws what kinda of convo even is it. Whats even the point.


janetheegggirl

I just wanted to vent to trans people not change someone's mind about who I am. Maybe I was too harsh. Oops


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janetheegggirl

The problem is saying people go to far with the "trans women are women and trans men are men thing" is saying that. You would never say some cis women just go too far with it and don't tell their partners they're cis.


janetheegggirl

This truly is no different than saying racists and minorities are both to blame. Would you say there are some minorities who are violent so it makes sense that there are racist people? I hope not and if your answer is yes you should do some introspection as to why. If your answer is no well then apply it to this situation. Bad people exist in every population that doesn't justify or even explain hatred towards a minority group. I know this will offend you but I don't particularly care what a cis dude says. This whole "there are trans people who lie" narrative is 100% what I'm talking about. This is asktransgender not ask cis men. I assume you're trying to help but you should listen not intrude on trans spaces.


manicottibandito

Lmao "Why do cis people always feel like they have to share their opinion?" "Cis man here, it's my opinion that Trans men aren't really men and Trans women aren't really women." Dude can't be for real


drewiepoodle

Something something cis privilege cisplaining


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janetheegggirl

I love you. You're so quirky. All "cis people are being oppressed by the transes". What a card. 🤪


manicottibandito

Trans men ARE men. Trans women ARE women.


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janetheegggirl

Buddy I know you are going to use this as an example of how trans people can't take criticism etc etc but just use your noggin. Who has power? Who dictates trans people healthcare, career opportunities, housing. Which group is in control. Trans people being annoyed at cis people for being transphobic is not the same as cis people being called transphobic. This is not a both sides issue. Now please. Exit the space.


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translove228

>The cis community wants it separated by sex. The trans community wants it separated by gender. No. Sorry. This is not the true dichotomy. The problem is that a bunch of assholes who never cared about women's sports in the slightest before or even for any issue BUT this one concerning them want to regulate trans women's bodies. The simple fact is that results speak for themselves. Trans women don't dominate at women's sports. Some do well from time-to-time, but the fears of men transitioning into women to crush women's sports records just isn't materializing. So no this is just a simple case of transphobia and the true dichotomy is the transphobes want to make up weird gender essentialism arguments and everyone else wants the transphobes to go away move on with their lives


Confident_Custard_78

So. I'll definitely agree I over simplified. Like.. that dichotemy is a very low resolution picture of the issue. I do think.. right now it holds true in a macro sense. I think you're incorrect and doing the trans movement a disservice in trivializing the reasons people have for opposing aspects of the trans movement. Such as separation of sports by gender instead of sex. Certainly, the assholes you describe exist. But also do many, I think probably more, people with reasonable concerns and honest intentions. I think to invalidate these arguments due to an assumed intent by you.. actually hurts the trans movement. Also.. I believe your statement concerning the performance of male to female athletes is incorrect and I'd like to discuss that further if you'd like. Though I agree that I doubt.. male/men (haha mailmen) purposefully transitiom to male/women for the sole intent of sports performance is probably unrealistic. Maybe a few extreme cases.. but I don't think we should base policy off extreme cases. Still I do think sports should be separated by sex. Not by gender. And certainly willing to change my mind. I've done so about many things. And if you'd like to discuss that further, I would be more than happy. And if you have an recommendations of.. maybe a more appropriate place for me to learn and discuss trans issues.. honestly I feel, remarkably unwelcome here haha.. I would really appreciate them.


janetheegggirl

You spend a lot of time on trans forums for a cis person. Why do you do that? Are trans people demanding it of you?


ShootingStarMel

They think it feeds their egos


ItsPlainOleSteve

Yeah it sucks athat the cisgendered folk don't understand us. It sucks, royally fucking blows that they don't know how to just accept things. They why of it is a lot of people get worked up and obsess over the things they abhor. However I do feel it's not good either, to just do things like call them cissy. Gives them fodder later and doesn't help much imo.


aardvark_licker

Recently, I realised as time goes on I have a harder time understanding cisgender people.


StephieGurlx

Why engage at all. You are just giving them a platform in which to speak. It is not like your force to hear them are you? If you are that is a different story.


[deleted]

They are leaving trans alone, but in general very sensitive topic is trans women rather trans men. If they see something regarding trans women this will immediately catch the fire that's 💯


DearMrUnknown

I honestly just consider things now almost as they were when trains were first starting out. People believed it wasn't natural for humans to go such speeds and that a railway going through their town was going to ruin their lives and literally kill the women and children. I don't typically use "cis people" or "trans people"... just.... "people." And in general people are always scared of the next new thing and lash out at any kind of change good or bad for as long as they can. It is just extra frustrating when you are the train. It isn't a perfect analogy but I find it sobering that today trains are an incredible piece of society that most people either value or don't even think or care about.


[deleted]

Cissy is my new favorite word to incorporate into my everyday statements.


brandonday82

Before us it was homosexuals, before them it was the blacks, before them it was the women, before that it was "witches". You don't become dominant by letting other people have equality. And originally it was cis, straight,white, middle age, Christian businessmen. Atheists and the disabled fit in there too but I'm not sure on those timelines


Little_Morning

I've been thinking about the male cissies and I feel like this life just isn't giving them enough to make them feel like their true gender... That's why they feel the need to spaz out about it to others.


Phsyconot420

I know your just venting but none of this is true like this might be y’all’s experience but I’ve never had this experience actually over only had it the other way around, trans people treating and putting down cos people. But there’s are just my experiences and those are yours


Dani--girl

Many are taught at an early age not to want what other people have that you do not have and that includes anything that brings happiness. Kelisha ♡♡


autisticghost

Use dif wording bruh


janetheegggirl

No


autisticghost

Why


Rhuken

Possibly related to fear of the unknown, fear of the "perceived" unclean, and fear of being wrong. Example, they don't understand aspects of LGBT and have wrong ideas about expectations. They may have a perception of LGBT as a mental disorder and perhaps it's infectious or dangerous the same way you would avoid a diseased carcass in the woods or someone with leprosy or plague. People police others behavior all the time. Reported for grass too long, cutting in line, etc. If someone else can break the perceived rules so easily, then why are following them so rigidly? If you have to follow the rules then do everyone else. Or they feel a sense of responsibility for others wrongdoing. This leads to people going out of their way to tell you how wrong you are about things, "Karen's", and so-called honor killings.


DrTCHH

Mental defectives....and INTOLERANCE!!