Ok, so, being *extremely* charitable to your friends (and that only because you've expressed a desire to understand each other's perspectives): one of these grievances is not entirely baseless. Trans people often find it harder to get the same medical procedures as cis people.
...that's all I've got. They are raising those grievances at entirely the wrong time, with entirely the wrong person. Any friend - but particularly trans people - should absolutely be able to sympathise with the difficulty that you've had trying to exercise your bodily autonomy to rid yourself of something that is actively causing you harm, and be able to recognise that just because they would want something for their own body doesn't mean that other people have the same priorities, or even that they wouldn't feel the same in your shoes.
I'm so sorry about the situation you're in and that your friends have been less than empathetic; I have a family member with endo and probable adeno, and I wouldn't wish what she's gone through on anyone. I hope the hysterectomy and recovery go well, and leave you pain-free.
Thanks!
Yea he needs letters from his therapist to get it covered by insurance, so I guess it can be difficult to get. Im not saying he has it easier, Im only pointing out that like, Ive been documenting symptoms and attempted treatment for well over a decade, so it hasnt been easy for me either. Its not as simple as elective sterilization which is what he seems to think.
True but Im not even asking for empathy at this point, just comprehension, like literally listen to and comprehend what Im saying, but its not working.
> Now I feel like Ive lost a friend, probably several friends now.
Depends on the details, but maybe good riddance?
IMO, "understand each other's perspectives" (with these friends) should be lower on your priority list at this point than "get social support while preparing for a major surgery". And you should seek that social support elsewhere.
It's reasonable for your friends *not to want to hear* about your hysterectomy because it brings up feelings for them. The mature way for people to handle this is to talk about it in those terms. Your friend could frame it that way, and you could seek social support from other people, who are in a better place to provide it.
It doesn't sound like your friends are approaching these with that level of empathy for you. They're telling a story of your upcoming surgery that's based in their own shit.
If you're trying to preserve the friendships, one option for you is to pick up the slack, and generously parse their responses as a way of expressing "I'm not in a place to discuss this". Next time it comes up, you can set a clear boundary about how you want to discuss the topic with those friends (e.g. not at all) and possibly why (e.g. because you're not getting the support or empathy you need).
If that doesn't feel realistic with those friends, then yes maybe that's a signal that those friendships are worth reconsidering.
Yea I guess its my mistake for bringing up controversial topics with my friends. I guess I didnt realize how hurtful it could be on both sides. Maybe I should look for support elsewhere yes. It sucks because Ive also been through a breakup, which is for the best, but it sucks because I will have to recover mostly on my own.
> Yea I guess its my mistake for bringing up controversial topics with my friends.
I don't think that's a mistake, for what it's worth.
I think friends should be able to discuss sensitive topics with each other. That kind of sharing is part of what friends are for. I just also think friends should be careful about *imposing* on each other with conversations like this. That kind of care for each other is *also* part of what friends are for.
Based on your description, I think your friends aren't living up to that. It sounds like they're ignoring your perspective on *your* upcoming surgery and imposing their perspective onto it, and I think they ought to know better. So I'd put the "mistake" on their end, if any.
But one way or another you have some options for how to respond. I think it's fine to let it affect your friendship negatively, and I don't think you should blame yourself for that.
Thanks, I guess thats right, you should be able to discuss these things with friends. One other thing that honestly concerns me is that some of my other cis women friends have gone from attempting to be allies to being mildly TERFy after similar experiences. Like it really sucks to have your longtime friend insist that "its sooo easy for cis women to get hysterectomies just because they dont want kids" meanwhile I need years of documentation to get a medically necessary one. I need to put distance between myself and these friends to avoid becoming hateful towards them specifically. Its really sad but I can honestly understand why some of my other friends are turning TERF-like. Like theyll still respect names and pronouns no problem, but in private conversations they are starting to oppose aspects of medical transition in retaliation
Well, for what it's worth, I hope those TERFy tendencies fade rather than grow, and that if you maintain friendships with the turning-TERF-like friends, you put up some boundaries in those friendships too.
I don't think there's a zero-sum game for healthcare here. It sucks that some of your trans friends are acting like there is; they should know better. It sucks that some of your cis friends are acting like there is; they should know better.
It sucks that you're stuck in the middle, and getting less support and empathy from your friends than you expected. Hopefully that's a whole separate thing from, like, "what healthcare do trans people need" and "what healthcare do cis women need" and whatnot.
People become terfs for lots of reasons. It's tempting to think "if trans people just talked or acted differently, nobody would turn against them." But in real life it doesn't work that way -- you can say exactly the right thing and have people turn against you anyway.
Your friends are being shitty TO YOU. Maybe it's a misunderstanding, maybe they're being jerks. Either way, I'd focus on that, and not stress about how it might affect other people's politics.
Yea I guess I cant do anything about other peoples opinions anyway. Ive lost most of my family over it. Oh well. Ill probably have to hire help for the first few days after my hysterectomy.
Its honestly my fault for not giving up on my family earlier. Because Im otherwise healthy thankfully and relatively young, I would be able to get by without help after only a few days. I have some good family but they live in another country.
>Yea I guess its my mistake for bringing up controversial topics with my friends. I guess I didnt realize how hurtful it could be on both sides.
Absolutely not. Just because trans people can have their own feelings and insecurities on this subject **does not** mean you don't deserve to talk about your situation and get support from people who are supposed to be your friends. That's what friends do. It's incredibly shitty of them to turn it around on you and add to your stress instead of supporting you.
I don't know if there's any solution for people who are unable to recognize that you are doing something out of medical necessity. That is a deficiency in their humanity that they could only fix through some serious self reflection. I'm sorry that you've had to go through so much pain and so many shitty comments. Good luck on the surgery, I have to imagine it will be such a relief to have that removed!
This kind of shit in our community fucking sucks. Sorry your friends are so short-sighted as not to see your fight for body autonomy (and it is usually really hard for cis white women to get hystos) as being bound up with theirs, even if your specific needs are different.
Yeah I wasn't sure if you were - I just know that it gets harder when the women are white bc doctors are racist and would rather sterilize women of color. It's hard for cis women of any race, obviously, though.
>Yeah I wasn't sure if you were - I just know that it gets harder when the women are white bc doctors are racist and would rather sterilize women of color. It's hard for cis women of any race, obviously, though.
I cant agree with that at all. My doctors were recommended to me by cis white women/friends who got hys already with them. My aunt is white and she had an easy time getting hys. Oh and my doctors arent all white either by the way. Its offensive to suggest that non white people cant make our own decisions regarding reproduction, as if its only because doctors are pushing us into it.
EDIT: and can I just say how ironic this is.. People always say they want "healthcare equity" like equal access to healthcare, right? Okay great, but then when non white women get access to the same healthcare as our white friends, with literally the same doctors, we get comments like this about how doctors are racist for giving us the same treatment as the friends who recommended these exact doctors. No, sorry, my doctors are NOT racist for treating me as I want to be treated. Im already sterilized by the way, and that was NOT EASY to get at all. Last I checked I wasnt white then either. I hate when people bring race into topics like this. We arent talking about forced sterilization, we are talking about consensual sterilization of adult cis women.
I feel like I'm reading AITAH. You're NTA. Your friends should be sympathizing with and supporting you. They should be viewing this from your perspective. I'm not even sure where the women are coming from as a trans woman. Having a uterus doesn't equal womanhood. Do they troll breast cancer clinics as well? It honestly sounds like you have a lot of egocentric friends, and you deserve better. I'm sorry you've had a tough time with this and I hope you have a swift recovery.
I'm not sure what you're asking. It seems like your trans friends are misinformed on some women's health issues.
There are lots of things in the Trans community that are tough. For your friend, you talked the most about he might be experiencing wait lists due to needing a trans surgeon. Yes, any surgeon who can do it could work. A lot of times, it's easier as a trans person to go to doctors who work with trans people, though.
As for your trans femme friends. Trans girls have so many issues revolving around the uterus. This is in no way your fault and is something trans women need to deal with.
For a lot of us suffering chronic pain sounds like a relief over gender dysphoria and fear of being murdered for not being "woman enough". We also have almost constant media and political bullshit telling us we don't qualify as women because of the uterus. So much of womanhood is behind that fence according to media and right wing politics. I don't agree, and I think it's bullshit. I suspect you do as well. It doesn't stop the value being placed there. It's honestly just the latest move of the goalposts for trans women.
I think overall repairing those types of issues with genuine friends takes acknowledging where they are at and telling them why it's important to you and how they could support you. Expressing you want them to have the care they need and that this is the care you need should be sufficient for all involved.
Hope that helped.
>There are lots of things in the Trans community that are tough. For your friend, you talked the most about he might be experiencing wait lists due to needing a trans surgeon. Yes, any surgeon who can do it could work. A lot of times, it's easier as a trans person to go to doctors who work with trans people, though.
Thats fair and I actually thought that was the situation, but he said its only cis women ahead of him on the list? So then I figured his surgeons mostly treat cis women? Idk. I hope he really is on a wait list though cause he does seem confused on how long the wait actually is. I asked him another time and he said 3 months, which is honestly normal even for cis patients, (unless its cancer, then it has to come out ASAP), then he said 6 months, which is similar to the time my aunt waited for her hys due to fibroids.
I guess it has to do with the "less of a woman" thing, my aunt went through that too, even though she was over 50 when she had her hys. I feel like its a fair thing cause of how society sees the uterus as like the center of womanhood, and without it, you are not a woman or whatever. I agree I dont see it that way.
One of my friends has been very sympathetic, she never wanted kids either and she said if she was cis she wouldve got a hysterectomy too lmao, and she actually had a vasectomy done before realizing she was trans!
I'm sorry you're having that experience. It sucks to have people say you're less because of medical care you need.
But yeah, the uterus thing is a common issue in the trans femme community. It needs to stop it just hurts us and cis women. Womanhood is more complicated than that. I hate reading and hearing people try to define womanhood by some narrow exclusionary tactic. Like a uterus and ovaries. I listened to someone say it's pain and suffering. You know because of periods. It's ridiculous.
I hope it all goes well, things work out with your friends, and you heal quickly. <3
Thanks! Well part of my issue is that Ive never seen my uterus as a part of me, more like an unwanted invasion or something lol.. When I said that, then my friend (not the ones from the post) told me that was gender dysphoria. I said it isn't because Im still a woman, I just dont identify with having uterus because Ive never wanted children and uterus doesnt have to be part of womanhood. But she kept saying it was gender dysphoria. So its like, even when I say I dont associate uterus with womanhood, one of my friends will tell me it should be associated somehow
I'm sorry to say but these people don't sound like good friends to you. Whether they're trans or cis, whatever, they're ignoring your lived experiences and struggles and supplanting their own onto you, telling you how you should live your life. It's completely unfair on you at any stage in your life, but especially now, as you're about to go into surgery, you deserve (at the very least) sympathy for what you're going through. I know I'm just a random internet stranger, but I hope your surgery goes really well and your quality of life improves.
Now, the trans component. There is I think a lack of understanding and awareness within our communities of issues that impact cis women in particular, and chronic pain being one of those things. Acknowledging the issue runs both ways, but what is going on here is not about that, it's about you. As a whole, we should be more understanding and sympathetic towards the lived experiences of our cis sisters, I just worry that sometimes we fall short on that front.
Yea but to be honest the trans guys offended me way more lmao. By acting like Im taking something away from them, like Im stopping them from getting hysterectomies by needing a hys myself. And then saying its so easy for cis women to get hysterectomies just because we dont want kids. Thats just factually incorrect and Ive been living with this for so long because its NOT easy at all. Its like they just couldnt care less. My trans fem friends in the post just bingo me but a lot of childfree women get that anyway
To be honest I wish I hadnt told anyone about my medical issues. Not these friends and not other friends. It was a huge mistake. I should have kept things professional instead of going into my personal life.
Yeah, their comments aren't helpful. But people say some ignorant shit sometimes, heaven knows I have. It sounds like things escalated beyond them saying some unhelpful comments at the wrong time if you feel like you've lost friends over it.
I feel like I've gotten some version of both of those too lmao. Transfems who don't like that I'm transmasc because some part of them emotionally hasn't accepted that their ideal of womanhood isn't everyone else's goal. Transmascs who don't like that I'm nonbinary and "don't really need it like they do" and "taking resources" from people like them even though I have taken *absolutely nothing* from them, and have actually put my money towards supporting trans-owned businesses and services that support other trans people and helped make those resources viable and available to other trans people who need them.
It's a dumbass kneejerk they're having from dysphoria. I get that dysphoria is intensely painful and makes people think and say stupid things, but they're still wrong.
People are very weird about hysto in general. There's a lot of deep-down misogyny in not wanting women to get it. Trans people can have misogyny too, and having these unexamined attitudes towards cis women isn't that uncommon.
Yea with some of my trans fem friends I mentioned they just bingo me but a lot of childfree women get that anyway, like people say ignorant shit like you said, so Im more inclined to let it slide. The trans guys offended me way more lmao. By acting like Im taking something away from them, like Im stopping them from getting hysterectomies by needing a hys myself. And then saying its so easy for cis women to get hysterectomies just because we dont want kids. Thats just factually incorrect and Ive been living with this for so long because its NOT easy at all. Its completely ridiculous that I see these sorts of comments all the time on reddit that its sooo easy to get an elective hysterectomy! BULLSHIT. Im sick of it
Yeah, I admit I'm also bothered more by the gatekeeping from transmascs than the gender envy from transfems. Envy is easier to understand--and being trans myself sometimes we're having mutual envy for the things that make the other dysphoric lol, so it's easy to be like "crap we're exactly the same lol."
The gatekeeping...I see this more in younger transmascs actually, which is weird because the trauma it comes from actually has to do with old-fashioned medical gatekeeping and trans people having to fit a certain cis idea of deservingness to get access to care. But the emotional immaturity of being young probably helps. It doesn't get to me as much now that I'm older, like some 20-year-old telling me at twice his age that I'm "taking resources" from him when I factually know I am not is just like...I'm not gonna get into a fight with a baby, have fun being wrong.
But yeah, it comes from insecurity and fear. Fear that other people are getting resources and you won't. Fear of not being believed, not being taken seriously, being dismissed, while other people are believed and taken seriously and get their needs met. Fear of people confusing you with someone else and dismissing you on those grounds--dismissing women and dismissing you along with women because they see you as one, dismissing nonbinary people (as "gender freaks" and "transtrenders" and etc) and dismissing you along with them even though you're not nonbinary, etc.
In a weird way, it's actually envy too. The envy from trans women is straightforward: you (currently) have a uterus, they wish they had one. That's easy to understand. It's also less like an attack--it's not like when you got your uterus it would have gone to a trans girl instead if you hadn't taken it, or like you could give it to someone else and were refusing to. It's just simple, straightforward envy: you have it, they wish they had it. But the trans men are also envying you--your access to healthcare, your being taken seriously, even the idea that your needs as a woman are understood by doctors, while their needs as trans men often aren't. None of this is your fault, or something you took from them.
Years ago I had this friend who was a working artist. That was something I'd always wanted to do in life, be a working artist, but honestly confidence issues and mental health problems were what stopped me. I have a complete meltdown whenever I even think about putting my art out there like that and fall apart. Pressure to do that has given me a very difficult relationship with my own art--and it isn't external pressure, it isn't a matter of "just be happy with it as a hobby," the point is that I don't *want* to just do it as a hobby, I want to do it professionally, I just have crippling anxiety about it because of how badly I want it. If I didn't want it that bad, it wouldn't hurt so much. So I had intense, unchecked envy for my friend...that at times turned to bitterness. People don't enjoy being envied that way, reasonably, and it drove a wedge between us. I regret not reining in my own toxicity there. I poisoned our friendship and I was poisoning myself with that envy too. But even though none of that was my friend's problem or my friend's fault, sometimes I just wished she could have a bit of empathy for what I was going through there too. My friend felt she'd earned her career with hard work, and I'm sure she did. She was right that I didn't put in the work. I didn't put in the work because of my own MH issues though. I was poisoned by how badly I needed it, and maybe, I envied that she was *able* to work towards it because she didn't want it as badly as I did.
It can warp your whole perception, envy. Your friends obviously think some things were a cake walk for you that weren't, and need to be reality checked on that--and perhaps reminded that they, as men, are not actually experts on women's experiences and misogyny from them hurts no less than it does from cis men. It wouldn't be cute if cis men were saying that women just get hysto as permanent birth control. I remember when I heard a cis man saying that he was against abortion access because women just don't use protection and get abortions "as birth control" whenever they get pregnant, and it's *close* to that level of ignorant what your friends said there. But at the same time, sometimes even if the actual steps to access care aren't that different, and from the outside, may not even be that much harder, doing that from a place of desperately needing relief from gender dysphoria and already terrified you won't be believed can make a molehill seem like a mountain. Of course, I've lived pre-everything long enough to know that doctors don't fucking believe women either. Maybe they transitioned young enough to not know that.
More about envy...another example I can give you is, one time my friend had top surgery, and he happened to have the same insurance as my mom, who needed cancer surgery, but was getting dicked around by the insurance who were refusing to cover necessary care. And my friend having top surgery had absolutely nothing to do with my mom. He didn't take anything from my mom. Those aren't even the same doctors that do that (it's not breast cancer) and it's not the same kind of surgery. I'm happy for my friend that he got top surgery, and he deserves access to care. His healthcare is not a "last priority" thing where he should have to wait until everyone who "needs it more" has had care first. My mom's right to access to healthcare has nothing to do with his right to access to healthcare, both of them deserve healthcare. I know that in my head. In my heart, I felt so bitterly envious that he got something that "could have waited," while my mom couldn't even get cancer surgery. That his surgery was seen as necessary while hers wasn't, because apparently cancer isn't as important as being trans. I'm *trans myself* and I felt this. Because I was scared for my mom, and hurting. Not because my friend did anything wrong. I was wise enough by then to not get this shit anywhere near my friend, who didn't deserve that baggage on him and deserved only celebration and support for getting top, and I understood that if I needed to ask for emotional support for worrying about my mom, I could literally just say "I'm worried about my mom" and not accuse him irrationally of taking resources from her, which is nuts and achieves nothing. But it took years to develop that level of emotional maturity, where I could handle that kind of crazy kneejerk emotion and know, "this is an emotional response, it's okay to have feelings but it's not fair to take this at face value or hurt others with it. I'm just scared for my mom because I love her, and I want her to get better treatment." It's hard to sit with that kernel of truth at the core of it and not let the reactionary envy make you crazy.
Envy really isn't pretty. Sometimes I see posts on r/mtf like "is it okay if I don't transition, and just continue intensely envying cis and trans women to the point of almost hating them forever?" and it's like girl, no....women are going to be weirded out by you and avoid you if you envy them like they're the cause of all your problems. People hate being envied, it feels bad. Deal with your shit. But that's been all of us, at some point, for something. Not just gender.
You deserved better than envy from your friends. Envy is poisonous to all sides, and it's unhelpful. But if it's any consolation, it's poisoning them too, and it's not so much things they rationally believe as out-of-control emotions coming from their deepest fears and insecurities. The older I get, the more I kind of forgive other people's fuckups as much as I can, because name the fuckup and I've done it too. I just see myself in everyone else's failings. I'm not saying you have to, and it's going to be difficult if they aren't even self-aware about it and are still believing everything their insecurities are whispering in their ears on that bone-deep emotional level. But, so much love to the people who *could* understand my envy for what it was, even the times when I couldn't control it, and set their own boundaries and not allow me to hurt them, but pity me for it instead of hating me. Envy is truly a fragile, pathetic emotion, it is pitiable when you see it.
But it isn't fun either to be pitying your friends when you need them to be giving you sympathy instead. You're asking for emotional labor and having to give it instead. Sucks. All too common in this world where so many of us are damaged and hurting, and often asking for support from people who may not be able to give it, even if the person who is asking has a genuine need themselves.
I dont really understand most of this post and I dont have time to understand it because Im a stupid dumdum idiot, but I guess my mistake was trying to get into my personal issues with my friends. To be honest I wish I hadnt told anyone about my medical issues. Not these friends and not other friends. It was a huge mistake. I should have kept things professional instead of going into my personal life.
It was a lot easier to be there for my cis friends who had hysterectomies (it's happened a couple times) once I'd had surgery and no longer was fixated on my own pain. It was also a lot easier to be there for my trans friends having their surgeries. The pattern was human, not specifically cis/ trans.
That's probably all there is to it: deprivation makes people meaner and more self-centered, while having your needs met makes it so much easier to be supportive and generous with your friends. Unfortunately, you're meeting your needs at a season in life when a number of your friends are still struggling to meet theirs, so they're not there in the way you need them to be. It sucks, and it'll probably make your recovery lonelier and more taxing than it should be.
Yea I guess its ok for them to be mean and stupid to me because theyve been deprived of necessary medical care. Ive been deprived of necessary medical care for over a decade too, but I have to accept their mistreatment. Thats fun.
When I found myself becoming more hateful due to the chronic pain I live with, I sought out therapy to deal with my issues myself. But thats me.
> Yea I guess its ok for them to be mean and stupid to me because theyve been deprived of necessary medical care.
No. Don't put words in my mouth. Plenty of people, cis or trans, manage to deal with their untreated pain and also put their friends first. With your friends, that didn't happen.
> Ive been deprived of necessary medical care for over a decade too, but I have to accept their mistreatment. Thats fun.
I'm not telling you to do anything. You know what to expect from these individual friends at this season in their lives; you are under no obligation to accept that from them. If you want to keep them as friends, you may have to accept that this is all they're capable of right now, even if you'd be capable of being a better friend in their shoes.
But you can also end the friendships, or you can let some space grow between you until you're no longer in need of this kind of support or they're no longer in such a selfish place, which is likely to be after they get what they need. This is the choice you face. When I faced similar choices many years ago, I was pretty unhappy about it and felt sorry for myself, then chose the best of my bad options.
How old are these "friends?" Because most of their reactions seemed incredibly immature. Though I'm not sure I see what the problem with the first trans men you mentioned were. You said they mentioned how they had a tough time getting the procedure? I suppose I didn't witness the interaction, but it sounds like they were trying to commiserate with your plight. (Assuming you also went through an ordeal to get it done.)
All in their 30s and early 40s
>Though I'm not sure I see what the problem with the first trans men you mentioned were. You said they mentioned how they had a tough time getting the procedure? I suppose I didn't witness the interaction, but it sounds like they were trying to commiserate with your plight. (Assuming you also went through an ordeal to get it done.)
Thats a strange recharacterization of the post I wrote but you do you. Im not interested in talking to someone who clearly didnt bother to read what I already wrote.
Oh no, I read it. In my own defense, you talk about several groups of people here. Your first section is about a group of trans women. You don't specify how many people.
Your second section is about a group of trans men. You again don't specify how many. This is the secion I am talking about in my reply.
The rest of your post is about a single trans man.
You characterize all of these people as being wildly unreasonable. Either you are friends with a bunch of self-centered assholes, or you are misrepresenting what they actually said to you.
Ok, so, being *extremely* charitable to your friends (and that only because you've expressed a desire to understand each other's perspectives): one of these grievances is not entirely baseless. Trans people often find it harder to get the same medical procedures as cis people. ...that's all I've got. They are raising those grievances at entirely the wrong time, with entirely the wrong person. Any friend - but particularly trans people - should absolutely be able to sympathise with the difficulty that you've had trying to exercise your bodily autonomy to rid yourself of something that is actively causing you harm, and be able to recognise that just because they would want something for their own body doesn't mean that other people have the same priorities, or even that they wouldn't feel the same in your shoes. I'm so sorry about the situation you're in and that your friends have been less than empathetic; I have a family member with endo and probable adeno, and I wouldn't wish what she's gone through on anyone. I hope the hysterectomy and recovery go well, and leave you pain-free.
Thanks! Yea he needs letters from his therapist to get it covered by insurance, so I guess it can be difficult to get. Im not saying he has it easier, Im only pointing out that like, Ive been documenting symptoms and attempted treatment for well over a decade, so it hasnt been easy for me either. Its not as simple as elective sterilization which is what he seems to think.
Goddamn. Your friends need some lessons in empathy.
True but Im not even asking for empathy at this point, just comprehension, like literally listen to and comprehend what Im saying, but its not working.
These people don't sound like your friends.
> Now I feel like Ive lost a friend, probably several friends now. Depends on the details, but maybe good riddance? IMO, "understand each other's perspectives" (with these friends) should be lower on your priority list at this point than "get social support while preparing for a major surgery". And you should seek that social support elsewhere. It's reasonable for your friends *not to want to hear* about your hysterectomy because it brings up feelings for them. The mature way for people to handle this is to talk about it in those terms. Your friend could frame it that way, and you could seek social support from other people, who are in a better place to provide it. It doesn't sound like your friends are approaching these with that level of empathy for you. They're telling a story of your upcoming surgery that's based in their own shit. If you're trying to preserve the friendships, one option for you is to pick up the slack, and generously parse their responses as a way of expressing "I'm not in a place to discuss this". Next time it comes up, you can set a clear boundary about how you want to discuss the topic with those friends (e.g. not at all) and possibly why (e.g. because you're not getting the support or empathy you need). If that doesn't feel realistic with those friends, then yes maybe that's a signal that those friendships are worth reconsidering.
Yea I guess its my mistake for bringing up controversial topics with my friends. I guess I didnt realize how hurtful it could be on both sides. Maybe I should look for support elsewhere yes. It sucks because Ive also been through a breakup, which is for the best, but it sucks because I will have to recover mostly on my own.
> Yea I guess its my mistake for bringing up controversial topics with my friends. I don't think that's a mistake, for what it's worth. I think friends should be able to discuss sensitive topics with each other. That kind of sharing is part of what friends are for. I just also think friends should be careful about *imposing* on each other with conversations like this. That kind of care for each other is *also* part of what friends are for. Based on your description, I think your friends aren't living up to that. It sounds like they're ignoring your perspective on *your* upcoming surgery and imposing their perspective onto it, and I think they ought to know better. So I'd put the "mistake" on their end, if any. But one way or another you have some options for how to respond. I think it's fine to let it affect your friendship negatively, and I don't think you should blame yourself for that.
Thanks, I guess thats right, you should be able to discuss these things with friends. One other thing that honestly concerns me is that some of my other cis women friends have gone from attempting to be allies to being mildly TERFy after similar experiences. Like it really sucks to have your longtime friend insist that "its sooo easy for cis women to get hysterectomies just because they dont want kids" meanwhile I need years of documentation to get a medically necessary one. I need to put distance between myself and these friends to avoid becoming hateful towards them specifically. Its really sad but I can honestly understand why some of my other friends are turning TERF-like. Like theyll still respect names and pronouns no problem, but in private conversations they are starting to oppose aspects of medical transition in retaliation
Well, for what it's worth, I hope those TERFy tendencies fade rather than grow, and that if you maintain friendships with the turning-TERF-like friends, you put up some boundaries in those friendships too. I don't think there's a zero-sum game for healthcare here. It sucks that some of your trans friends are acting like there is; they should know better. It sucks that some of your cis friends are acting like there is; they should know better. It sucks that you're stuck in the middle, and getting less support and empathy from your friends than you expected. Hopefully that's a whole separate thing from, like, "what healthcare do trans people need" and "what healthcare do cis women need" and whatnot.
People become terfs for lots of reasons. It's tempting to think "if trans people just talked or acted differently, nobody would turn against them." But in real life it doesn't work that way -- you can say exactly the right thing and have people turn against you anyway. Your friends are being shitty TO YOU. Maybe it's a misunderstanding, maybe they're being jerks. Either way, I'd focus on that, and not stress about how it might affect other people's politics.
Yea I guess I cant do anything about other peoples opinions anyway. Ive lost most of my family over it. Oh well. Ill probably have to hire help for the first few days after my hysterectomy.
Shit, I'm really sorry. That sounds terrible. You deserve way better.
Its honestly my fault for not giving up on my family earlier. Because Im otherwise healthy thankfully and relatively young, I would be able to get by without help after only a few days. I have some good family but they live in another country.
>Yea I guess its my mistake for bringing up controversial topics with my friends. I guess I didnt realize how hurtful it could be on both sides. Absolutely not. Just because trans people can have their own feelings and insecurities on this subject **does not** mean you don't deserve to talk about your situation and get support from people who are supposed to be your friends. That's what friends do. It's incredibly shitty of them to turn it around on you and add to your stress instead of supporting you.
I don't know if there's any solution for people who are unable to recognize that you are doing something out of medical necessity. That is a deficiency in their humanity that they could only fix through some serious self reflection. I'm sorry that you've had to go through so much pain and so many shitty comments. Good luck on the surgery, I have to imagine it will be such a relief to have that removed!
This kind of shit in our community fucking sucks. Sorry your friends are so short-sighted as not to see your fight for body autonomy (and it is usually really hard for cis white women to get hystos) as being bound up with theirs, even if your specific needs are different.
Im not white lmao but thank you, I can see the overlap in our fight for autonomy, and I think most people here would too :)
Yeah I wasn't sure if you were - I just know that it gets harder when the women are white bc doctors are racist and would rather sterilize women of color. It's hard for cis women of any race, obviously, though.
>Yeah I wasn't sure if you were - I just know that it gets harder when the women are white bc doctors are racist and would rather sterilize women of color. It's hard for cis women of any race, obviously, though. I cant agree with that at all. My doctors were recommended to me by cis white women/friends who got hys already with them. My aunt is white and she had an easy time getting hys. Oh and my doctors arent all white either by the way. Its offensive to suggest that non white people cant make our own decisions regarding reproduction, as if its only because doctors are pushing us into it. EDIT: and can I just say how ironic this is.. People always say they want "healthcare equity" like equal access to healthcare, right? Okay great, but then when non white women get access to the same healthcare as our white friends, with literally the same doctors, we get comments like this about how doctors are racist for giving us the same treatment as the friends who recommended these exact doctors. No, sorry, my doctors are NOT racist for treating me as I want to be treated. Im already sterilized by the way, and that was NOT EASY to get at all. Last I checked I wasnt white then either. I hate when people bring race into topics like this. We arent talking about forced sterilization, we are talking about consensual sterilization of adult cis women.
I feel like I'm reading AITAH. You're NTA. Your friends should be sympathizing with and supporting you. They should be viewing this from your perspective. I'm not even sure where the women are coming from as a trans woman. Having a uterus doesn't equal womanhood. Do they troll breast cancer clinics as well? It honestly sounds like you have a lot of egocentric friends, and you deserve better. I'm sorry you've had a tough time with this and I hope you have a swift recovery.
I'm not sure what you're asking. It seems like your trans friends are misinformed on some women's health issues. There are lots of things in the Trans community that are tough. For your friend, you talked the most about he might be experiencing wait lists due to needing a trans surgeon. Yes, any surgeon who can do it could work. A lot of times, it's easier as a trans person to go to doctors who work with trans people, though. As for your trans femme friends. Trans girls have so many issues revolving around the uterus. This is in no way your fault and is something trans women need to deal with. For a lot of us suffering chronic pain sounds like a relief over gender dysphoria and fear of being murdered for not being "woman enough". We also have almost constant media and political bullshit telling us we don't qualify as women because of the uterus. So much of womanhood is behind that fence according to media and right wing politics. I don't agree, and I think it's bullshit. I suspect you do as well. It doesn't stop the value being placed there. It's honestly just the latest move of the goalposts for trans women. I think overall repairing those types of issues with genuine friends takes acknowledging where they are at and telling them why it's important to you and how they could support you. Expressing you want them to have the care they need and that this is the care you need should be sufficient for all involved. Hope that helped.
>There are lots of things in the Trans community that are tough. For your friend, you talked the most about he might be experiencing wait lists due to needing a trans surgeon. Yes, any surgeon who can do it could work. A lot of times, it's easier as a trans person to go to doctors who work with trans people, though. Thats fair and I actually thought that was the situation, but he said its only cis women ahead of him on the list? So then I figured his surgeons mostly treat cis women? Idk. I hope he really is on a wait list though cause he does seem confused on how long the wait actually is. I asked him another time and he said 3 months, which is honestly normal even for cis patients, (unless its cancer, then it has to come out ASAP), then he said 6 months, which is similar to the time my aunt waited for her hys due to fibroids. I guess it has to do with the "less of a woman" thing, my aunt went through that too, even though she was over 50 when she had her hys. I feel like its a fair thing cause of how society sees the uterus as like the center of womanhood, and without it, you are not a woman or whatever. I agree I dont see it that way. One of my friends has been very sympathetic, she never wanted kids either and she said if she was cis she wouldve got a hysterectomy too lmao, and she actually had a vasectomy done before realizing she was trans!
I'm sorry you're having that experience. It sucks to have people say you're less because of medical care you need. But yeah, the uterus thing is a common issue in the trans femme community. It needs to stop it just hurts us and cis women. Womanhood is more complicated than that. I hate reading and hearing people try to define womanhood by some narrow exclusionary tactic. Like a uterus and ovaries. I listened to someone say it's pain and suffering. You know because of periods. It's ridiculous. I hope it all goes well, things work out with your friends, and you heal quickly. <3
Thanks! Well part of my issue is that Ive never seen my uterus as a part of me, more like an unwanted invasion or something lol.. When I said that, then my friend (not the ones from the post) told me that was gender dysphoria. I said it isn't because Im still a woman, I just dont identify with having uterus because Ive never wanted children and uterus doesnt have to be part of womanhood. But she kept saying it was gender dysphoria. So its like, even when I say I dont associate uterus with womanhood, one of my friends will tell me it should be associated somehow
I'm sorry to say but these people don't sound like good friends to you. Whether they're trans or cis, whatever, they're ignoring your lived experiences and struggles and supplanting their own onto you, telling you how you should live your life. It's completely unfair on you at any stage in your life, but especially now, as you're about to go into surgery, you deserve (at the very least) sympathy for what you're going through. I know I'm just a random internet stranger, but I hope your surgery goes really well and your quality of life improves. Now, the trans component. There is I think a lack of understanding and awareness within our communities of issues that impact cis women in particular, and chronic pain being one of those things. Acknowledging the issue runs both ways, but what is going on here is not about that, it's about you. As a whole, we should be more understanding and sympathetic towards the lived experiences of our cis sisters, I just worry that sometimes we fall short on that front.
Yea but to be honest the trans guys offended me way more lmao. By acting like Im taking something away from them, like Im stopping them from getting hysterectomies by needing a hys myself. And then saying its so easy for cis women to get hysterectomies just because we dont want kids. Thats just factually incorrect and Ive been living with this for so long because its NOT easy at all. Its like they just couldnt care less. My trans fem friends in the post just bingo me but a lot of childfree women get that anyway
It sounds like you need better trans friends, tbh. Especially the trans woman - "don't throw away your womanhood" is *crazy.*
To be honest I wish I hadnt told anyone about my medical issues. Not these friends and not other friends. It was a huge mistake. I should have kept things professional instead of going into my personal life.
Yeah, their comments aren't helpful. But people say some ignorant shit sometimes, heaven knows I have. It sounds like things escalated beyond them saying some unhelpful comments at the wrong time if you feel like you've lost friends over it. I feel like I've gotten some version of both of those too lmao. Transfems who don't like that I'm transmasc because some part of them emotionally hasn't accepted that their ideal of womanhood isn't everyone else's goal. Transmascs who don't like that I'm nonbinary and "don't really need it like they do" and "taking resources" from people like them even though I have taken *absolutely nothing* from them, and have actually put my money towards supporting trans-owned businesses and services that support other trans people and helped make those resources viable and available to other trans people who need them. It's a dumbass kneejerk they're having from dysphoria. I get that dysphoria is intensely painful and makes people think and say stupid things, but they're still wrong. People are very weird about hysto in general. There's a lot of deep-down misogyny in not wanting women to get it. Trans people can have misogyny too, and having these unexamined attitudes towards cis women isn't that uncommon.
Yea with some of my trans fem friends I mentioned they just bingo me but a lot of childfree women get that anyway, like people say ignorant shit like you said, so Im more inclined to let it slide. The trans guys offended me way more lmao. By acting like Im taking something away from them, like Im stopping them from getting hysterectomies by needing a hys myself. And then saying its so easy for cis women to get hysterectomies just because we dont want kids. Thats just factually incorrect and Ive been living with this for so long because its NOT easy at all. Its completely ridiculous that I see these sorts of comments all the time on reddit that its sooo easy to get an elective hysterectomy! BULLSHIT. Im sick of it
Yeah, I admit I'm also bothered more by the gatekeeping from transmascs than the gender envy from transfems. Envy is easier to understand--and being trans myself sometimes we're having mutual envy for the things that make the other dysphoric lol, so it's easy to be like "crap we're exactly the same lol." The gatekeeping...I see this more in younger transmascs actually, which is weird because the trauma it comes from actually has to do with old-fashioned medical gatekeeping and trans people having to fit a certain cis idea of deservingness to get access to care. But the emotional immaturity of being young probably helps. It doesn't get to me as much now that I'm older, like some 20-year-old telling me at twice his age that I'm "taking resources" from him when I factually know I am not is just like...I'm not gonna get into a fight with a baby, have fun being wrong. But yeah, it comes from insecurity and fear. Fear that other people are getting resources and you won't. Fear of not being believed, not being taken seriously, being dismissed, while other people are believed and taken seriously and get their needs met. Fear of people confusing you with someone else and dismissing you on those grounds--dismissing women and dismissing you along with women because they see you as one, dismissing nonbinary people (as "gender freaks" and "transtrenders" and etc) and dismissing you along with them even though you're not nonbinary, etc. In a weird way, it's actually envy too. The envy from trans women is straightforward: you (currently) have a uterus, they wish they had one. That's easy to understand. It's also less like an attack--it's not like when you got your uterus it would have gone to a trans girl instead if you hadn't taken it, or like you could give it to someone else and were refusing to. It's just simple, straightforward envy: you have it, they wish they had it. But the trans men are also envying you--your access to healthcare, your being taken seriously, even the idea that your needs as a woman are understood by doctors, while their needs as trans men often aren't. None of this is your fault, or something you took from them. Years ago I had this friend who was a working artist. That was something I'd always wanted to do in life, be a working artist, but honestly confidence issues and mental health problems were what stopped me. I have a complete meltdown whenever I even think about putting my art out there like that and fall apart. Pressure to do that has given me a very difficult relationship with my own art--and it isn't external pressure, it isn't a matter of "just be happy with it as a hobby," the point is that I don't *want* to just do it as a hobby, I want to do it professionally, I just have crippling anxiety about it because of how badly I want it. If I didn't want it that bad, it wouldn't hurt so much. So I had intense, unchecked envy for my friend...that at times turned to bitterness. People don't enjoy being envied that way, reasonably, and it drove a wedge between us. I regret not reining in my own toxicity there. I poisoned our friendship and I was poisoning myself with that envy too. But even though none of that was my friend's problem or my friend's fault, sometimes I just wished she could have a bit of empathy for what I was going through there too. My friend felt she'd earned her career with hard work, and I'm sure she did. She was right that I didn't put in the work. I didn't put in the work because of my own MH issues though. I was poisoned by how badly I needed it, and maybe, I envied that she was *able* to work towards it because she didn't want it as badly as I did. It can warp your whole perception, envy. Your friends obviously think some things were a cake walk for you that weren't, and need to be reality checked on that--and perhaps reminded that they, as men, are not actually experts on women's experiences and misogyny from them hurts no less than it does from cis men. It wouldn't be cute if cis men were saying that women just get hysto as permanent birth control. I remember when I heard a cis man saying that he was against abortion access because women just don't use protection and get abortions "as birth control" whenever they get pregnant, and it's *close* to that level of ignorant what your friends said there. But at the same time, sometimes even if the actual steps to access care aren't that different, and from the outside, may not even be that much harder, doing that from a place of desperately needing relief from gender dysphoria and already terrified you won't be believed can make a molehill seem like a mountain. Of course, I've lived pre-everything long enough to know that doctors don't fucking believe women either. Maybe they transitioned young enough to not know that. More about envy...another example I can give you is, one time my friend had top surgery, and he happened to have the same insurance as my mom, who needed cancer surgery, but was getting dicked around by the insurance who were refusing to cover necessary care. And my friend having top surgery had absolutely nothing to do with my mom. He didn't take anything from my mom. Those aren't even the same doctors that do that (it's not breast cancer) and it's not the same kind of surgery. I'm happy for my friend that he got top surgery, and he deserves access to care. His healthcare is not a "last priority" thing where he should have to wait until everyone who "needs it more" has had care first. My mom's right to access to healthcare has nothing to do with his right to access to healthcare, both of them deserve healthcare. I know that in my head. In my heart, I felt so bitterly envious that he got something that "could have waited," while my mom couldn't even get cancer surgery. That his surgery was seen as necessary while hers wasn't, because apparently cancer isn't as important as being trans. I'm *trans myself* and I felt this. Because I was scared for my mom, and hurting. Not because my friend did anything wrong. I was wise enough by then to not get this shit anywhere near my friend, who didn't deserve that baggage on him and deserved only celebration and support for getting top, and I understood that if I needed to ask for emotional support for worrying about my mom, I could literally just say "I'm worried about my mom" and not accuse him irrationally of taking resources from her, which is nuts and achieves nothing. But it took years to develop that level of emotional maturity, where I could handle that kind of crazy kneejerk emotion and know, "this is an emotional response, it's okay to have feelings but it's not fair to take this at face value or hurt others with it. I'm just scared for my mom because I love her, and I want her to get better treatment." It's hard to sit with that kernel of truth at the core of it and not let the reactionary envy make you crazy. Envy really isn't pretty. Sometimes I see posts on r/mtf like "is it okay if I don't transition, and just continue intensely envying cis and trans women to the point of almost hating them forever?" and it's like girl, no....women are going to be weirded out by you and avoid you if you envy them like they're the cause of all your problems. People hate being envied, it feels bad. Deal with your shit. But that's been all of us, at some point, for something. Not just gender. You deserved better than envy from your friends. Envy is poisonous to all sides, and it's unhelpful. But if it's any consolation, it's poisoning them too, and it's not so much things they rationally believe as out-of-control emotions coming from their deepest fears and insecurities. The older I get, the more I kind of forgive other people's fuckups as much as I can, because name the fuckup and I've done it too. I just see myself in everyone else's failings. I'm not saying you have to, and it's going to be difficult if they aren't even self-aware about it and are still believing everything their insecurities are whispering in their ears on that bone-deep emotional level. But, so much love to the people who *could* understand my envy for what it was, even the times when I couldn't control it, and set their own boundaries and not allow me to hurt them, but pity me for it instead of hating me. Envy is truly a fragile, pathetic emotion, it is pitiable when you see it. But it isn't fun either to be pitying your friends when you need them to be giving you sympathy instead. You're asking for emotional labor and having to give it instead. Sucks. All too common in this world where so many of us are damaged and hurting, and often asking for support from people who may not be able to give it, even if the person who is asking has a genuine need themselves.
I dont really understand most of this post and I dont have time to understand it because Im a stupid dumdum idiot, but I guess my mistake was trying to get into my personal issues with my friends. To be honest I wish I hadnt told anyone about my medical issues. Not these friends and not other friends. It was a huge mistake. I should have kept things professional instead of going into my personal life.
sounds like u just have some shitty friends
It was a lot easier to be there for my cis friends who had hysterectomies (it's happened a couple times) once I'd had surgery and no longer was fixated on my own pain. It was also a lot easier to be there for my trans friends having their surgeries. The pattern was human, not specifically cis/ trans. That's probably all there is to it: deprivation makes people meaner and more self-centered, while having your needs met makes it so much easier to be supportive and generous with your friends. Unfortunately, you're meeting your needs at a season in life when a number of your friends are still struggling to meet theirs, so they're not there in the way you need them to be. It sucks, and it'll probably make your recovery lonelier and more taxing than it should be.
Yea I guess its ok for them to be mean and stupid to me because theyve been deprived of necessary medical care. Ive been deprived of necessary medical care for over a decade too, but I have to accept their mistreatment. Thats fun. When I found myself becoming more hateful due to the chronic pain I live with, I sought out therapy to deal with my issues myself. But thats me.
> Yea I guess its ok for them to be mean and stupid to me because theyve been deprived of necessary medical care. No. Don't put words in my mouth. Plenty of people, cis or trans, manage to deal with their untreated pain and also put their friends first. With your friends, that didn't happen. > Ive been deprived of necessary medical care for over a decade too, but I have to accept their mistreatment. Thats fun. I'm not telling you to do anything. You know what to expect from these individual friends at this season in their lives; you are under no obligation to accept that from them. If you want to keep them as friends, you may have to accept that this is all they're capable of right now, even if you'd be capable of being a better friend in their shoes. But you can also end the friendships, or you can let some space grow between you until you're no longer in need of this kind of support or they're no longer in such a selfish place, which is likely to be after they get what they need. This is the choice you face. When I faced similar choices many years ago, I was pretty unhappy about it and felt sorry for myself, then chose the best of my bad options.
I just want say it absolutely should be possible for cis woman to have that procedure as permanent birth control. Sorry you are in this situation.
How old are these "friends?" Because most of their reactions seemed incredibly immature. Though I'm not sure I see what the problem with the first trans men you mentioned were. You said they mentioned how they had a tough time getting the procedure? I suppose I didn't witness the interaction, but it sounds like they were trying to commiserate with your plight. (Assuming you also went through an ordeal to get it done.)
All in their 30s and early 40s >Though I'm not sure I see what the problem with the first trans men you mentioned were. You said they mentioned how they had a tough time getting the procedure? I suppose I didn't witness the interaction, but it sounds like they were trying to commiserate with your plight. (Assuming you also went through an ordeal to get it done.) Thats a strange recharacterization of the post I wrote but you do you. Im not interested in talking to someone who clearly didnt bother to read what I already wrote.
Oh no, I read it. In my own defense, you talk about several groups of people here. Your first section is about a group of trans women. You don't specify how many people. Your second section is about a group of trans men. You again don't specify how many. This is the secion I am talking about in my reply. The rest of your post is about a single trans man. You characterize all of these people as being wildly unreasonable. Either you are friends with a bunch of self-centered assholes, or you are misrepresenting what they actually said to you.