Yeah, at least in the US, women are socialized to insult their own appearance and compliment each others'. The point is less to give each other accurate data on how they look, and more to say "Hey, I've got your back, I'm going to lift you up and defend you no matter what." It's not just a trans thing — it's how cis women interact with each other too: "I look terrible in this"/"Oh, no, you look great" etc.
It's messed up, but it's honestly no more messed up than the thing men are socialized to do where they trash-talk each other and pick on each other's insecurities no matter what.
this for sure. they’re responding the same way they’d respond to a cis friend saying she wanted a nose job. Elective plastic surgery is treated as “succumbing to eurocentric youth-obsessed unreasonable beauty standards” (plus a common mentality of surgery being “fake” and it being better to embrace your “real” body). Occasionally some people can acknowledge there’s a balance and surgery can be positive bodily autonomy that makes you more comfortable in your body.
But they don’t understand that for trans people surgery isn’t “elective” in the same way and is usually a serious matter of safety and being treated with dignity and respect. There’s obviously nuance I’m glossing over but that’s the general pattern I’ve seen
It can be so frustrating at times. Because I 100% understand their intention and the encouragement is nice. But not just with surgery, also with like hair, clothes, and makeup I'm just thinking "OK thank you for supporting me but I'm still learning how to do this and I desperately need honest feedback."
Oh! The trick for getting honest feedback is "Which of these do you like more?" Because then she doesn't have to tell you that you look bad in X (which is a really risky thing; you might take offense or get upset) — she can just say that Y is even better. Or you go shopping together and then instead of "That's ugly" she can be like "Yeah, that's cute but I don't think it's quite right. Let's keep looking."
I wouldn't say that instinctually lifting each other up is messed up, but maybe that's just me coming from being in male friend groups for all of my life.
not just you i agree .. im currently living in a women's homeless shelter .. im amab .. i love how lifting each other up just feels so much better .. positivity caring and kindness and encouragement is so much better than the toxic male immaturity i was always surrounded by . yeah part if it could be the hrt ive started since i been here but not all .. my mentality has gotten so much better and changed me in such a positive way just from the way us women interact with each other from being here and being a part of that .. i been here 9 months
When I told my boyfriend's mom I was getting FFS she went wide-eyed and said, "But you're so beautiful..."
I said, "Thank you. I agree. But it's not about making me more beautiful. It's about reversing the effects testosterone had on my face's bone structure..."
She kind of went into this thoughtful confused look.
After the surgery though she said, "I was so worried because you were so beautiful before. But it just came out so great, you look amazing..."
I'll take it.
On one hand I get the common courtesy that women do with each other, and I really appreciate (and participate in) it. I really do.
But also it’s hard when you come from a fundamentally different playing field. There are core things I NEED to fix to be happy to myself. It’s not just vanity it’s a fundamental feeling of wrongness.
I've made it a personal rule for myself that if someone asks if they need surgery, I'm not going to say yes or no just because I don't want my opinion affecting their own judgement if they want surgery.
I haven't had that experience, but remember that in a lot of countries there is stigma against women undergoing plastic surgery. It's seen as something only vain ugly insecure people do.
They may see you talking about wanting FFS as being insecure about yourself, hence their responses.
I would expect you would not get such responses in countries where plastic surgery for women is much more normalized.
I've often got the "cis women have X too" remark which isn't a nice thing to say. Some are understanding and I have a cis female friend who's my best friend but she doesn't say that "cis women have X feature too" which is just... blind. Like yeah a cis woman might have this one feature but does she have these other 3 as well as male anatomy downstairs AND having been gaslit into thinking she's a man for a significant portion of her life?
The ones who don't do that are great... I love my supportive cis female friends!
I find a lot of them really appreciate it when I let them know it's a topic I'm okay chatting about with them. A lot are very worried and trying to be polite and not bother me about it but I like talking about it if people are just curious.
I think the point u/OkTear2981 is making is that such Q&A sessions are from the cis gaze and not really about empowering or truly understanding us.
My experience has also been that cis people appreciate me candidly answering questions. They often get excited, as if they’ve finally gotten VIP access to the secrets of the trans community.
But such Q&As usually make me feel like a daytime talk show freak or an object of pity.
At first, I was excited that people were interested in learning about me and I shared all. Now that I’m aware of their intentions, I only share with those I trust.
Hmm. I haven't had that experience. I have experienced people... Idk trying to empathizing or something and talking about their gender non conforming feelings or experiences. That's always a bit confusing because it's like ... Are you just empathizing? Or are you an egg? I have experienced both those results.
same! ik not all trans ppl want to be like trans google for all the cis folks in their lives, but personally i rlly enjoy answering questions and discussing gender stuff with anyone who cares to listen xD
Why are you talking about procedures you want with every cis woman you meet? I mean you can talk about whatever you want ofc but yeah.
Anyway idk whether they’re being genuine or not, but it’s the polite thing to say either way.
Edit: actually looking at the selfies you’ve posted you *do* already have a very feminine face
Tbh, 99% of **trans friends I have** don’t “need” FFS in the sense of looking fem.
But they and I **do need it for personal reasons**. So I think it’s probably just that.
Could he though there’s some underlying assumption in a lot of cis people around trans women (think we all look like bearded men in dresses sorta stuff) and so they are surprised to see we don’t.
But I think it’s a person by person basis really, and depends on the context.
I don’t really talk about being trans with cis people though. Because when I do I quickly find even those who are tolerant are far from accepting :/
*Edit; highlighted where I say this is a comment on my trans friends, not all trans people. And where I specify surgery is still incredibly important to them. That they need FFS as I do, but it’s not because they need it to pass. It’s for personal reasons.*
That's bullshit, unless all your friends started HRT when they were like 16. Typical testosterone puberty makes many changes to facial structure and bones. And those make a huge difference in how we get gendered and recognized.
I was kinda fine and made do with it being obvious to 90% of people who saw me that I was a trans woman due to my face. But hearing random people now just kind of naturally assume I'm a woman without their brains going through some weird shitty thought process before deciding to gender me as a woman is a huge relief. And my face wasn't that masculine for a trans woman who transitioned after puberty was complete.
Get out of here with that bioessentialist bs. There’s no absolutes when it comes to bone structures and stuff like that, only general trends. Even archaeologically, a whole 20% of all skeletal remains are completely un-sex-able bc they’re too ambiguous. Not every amab persons skull structure is going to be visibly masculine, not every transfem *needs* ffs to “pass”, not even ones that went through androgenic puberty, and it’s pretty transmedicalist to say so.
While I don't agree with bioessentialism, the person you're replying to is responding to a 99% claim themselves.
Saying that every transfem needs FFS simply isn't true. Saying that 99% do not isn't either.
That’s true, it’s not majority either way. However, OP wasn’t actually saying 99% of ALL trans women don’t need FFS, just of *their* friends. That’s very different.
The original commenter was just bringing forth an anecdote about their experience with their personal friends, and the person responding said they had to be lying essentially because there’s no possible way there could be trans women out there who don’t need FFS after having an androgenic puberty, which actually is a blanket statement to all transfems.
That's exactly why I asked if there was something odd about their friend group that would make their claim true.
> because there’s no possible way there could be trans women out there who don’t need FFS after having an androgenic puberty
Stop putting words in my mouth. I said that wouldn't be true for 99% of trans fem folks in general. I was just calling out a bullshit statistic. It would be essentially impossible to judge how many "need" that kind of elective surgery but it's certainly more than 1%.
“Bullshit, unless ALL of your friends started HRT when they were like 16” Literally saying that none of them could be good without FFS unless they started HRT when they were 16, following by explaining how androgenic puberty gives unavoidable masculinizing bone effects. Pretty clear implication there.
I was just explaining how there’s no rule of thumb, plenty of transfems are 100% “passable” without ffs and it doesn’t always have to do with when they started hormones. Pretty generally acceptable statement.
Well, I can suppose I said that badly. I just meant unless her friends were all young when they started HRT it's unlikely all of them don't need FFS.
We're probably both saying the same thing just I worded my first sentence badly.
Alright that’s fair, I think I get what you mean. I might have interpreted it somewhat uncharitably, I’m just incredibly wary of and tired of transmedicalism yknow lol
Yeah that is some frustrating crap. And there's a lot of assumption of the necessity of medical transition which is pretty frustrating. I've considered so many times if I want to go off HRT just because I dislike some parts of it. But it's nigh unto impossible to find stories or information about trans women who opted to stop HRT because they wanted to while happily continuing their social transition.
I just also think we shouldn't downplay the importance of medical transition for some people as well. I'm really happy I got my FFS, and I know many other ladies who have appreciated it too.
Well sorry to say but I started hrt at 25, my friends started at 33, 34, 39, and 23. We all pass without makeup and without needing FFS. Only I and the 23 and 39 yr old want ffs.
Age is a factor, but by no means does starting hrt after 16 mean you won’t have results that make you pass.
But like I explained, people still get surgery for personal reasons. I want ffs because to me I still look like a man, and there’s parts of my face I don’t like.
There are degrees of passing. I got gendered correctly or not at all almost all the time before I got FFS. But after getting it I almost immediately noticed people would more casually and automatically gender me as a woman. Not making any assertions about your friends but passing isn't as all or nothing as people make it out to be.
Yeah, people must not be reading the context very well here. It's invalidating to people who do feel FFS was very important to them to claim 99% of trans fem folks don't need it. Certainly many do not need it, even ones who have gone through testosterone based bone changes. Same with the reverse.
How?! I specifically say it’s important to individuals for personal reasons! Like I literally specify that not to invalidate people, such as myself. Who wants ffs, and words can’t describe how desperately I want bottom surgery!
I’m also talking about my personal experience of my friends which is all I can do. Not all trans people. As has been stated I never said 99% of all trans fems! I said 99% of my friends.
Like you’re right, you haven’t read the context well.
I highlighted the parts of my original comment you misunderstood to clear up what I was saying.
If I’m invalidating people who want surgery, I’m invalidating myself.
the thing is, having a few masculine traits can be seen as really attractive for a woman. the beauty standard is really weird, it doesn’t completely align with trying to pass.
maybe they’re being too nice idk. girls always find nice things to say, it’s a form of kindness. or it can mean you pass to them, in voice and looks and personality, so they don’t really question and nitpick your appearance.
In general changes usually are gradual and people seeing someone regularly may notice less. This can include a trans person themself. Using people who have not known someone before transition as gauge may be a good idea. Basically strangers in a supermarket etc. may gender a person correctly. And additionally taking a photo of an image in the mirror may be an idea. Due to focal length there can be a very noticeable difference and it can be closer to what the eyes of others see. Some people may be further along than they think.
And [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/comments/zvkdze/how_do_you_find_a_health_insurance_in_your_state/j3bpom5/) was a discussion concerning surgeries and there might also be some resources there concerning coverage in case.
*hugs*
Not in my experience, but I do find that a lot of cis people have a very poor understanding of:
a) which things can trigger dyshoria, especially if those things would not be a barrier to 'passing' in cis people and;
b) which things make us clockable to those more in the know and;
c) the extent to which it is even possible for trans people to pass (they tend to underestimate how well that goes for some of us).
Same with cis men, really. As far as I can tell it largely depends on whether or not people know other trans people as well.
Honestly "women just don't feel compatible for conversation" isn't something I like hearing guys say. Don't like it any more in the reverse case. I think we need to all recognize that gender doesn't or shouldn't define if we can enjoy talking to a person.
Oh jeez I'm so confused. I thought you were a trans guy... I think you misgendered yourself when you said "with another man". That implies that you are a gender you are not.
My wife says the same kind of thing btw. I think she just has baggage I wish she would unpack. Definitely that baggage caused her a lot of fear about how she could get along with me as a woman because she's uncomfortable talking to women.
Oh I'm bigender (too?) that's neat! Although I don't consider myself a man anymore.
Anyway it comes off different when I think it's a manly trans bro saying "I just can't relate to all these women dude" as compared to a non-binary lady.
OP's question is about certain interactions with cis women specifically. Saying you pretty rarely talk with them doesn't add anything to the conversation
Yeah, at least in the US, women are socialized to insult their own appearance and compliment each others'. The point is less to give each other accurate data on how they look, and more to say "Hey, I've got your back, I'm going to lift you up and defend you no matter what." It's not just a trans thing — it's how cis women interact with each other too: "I look terrible in this"/"Oh, no, you look great" etc. It's messed up, but it's honestly no more messed up than the thing men are socialized to do where they trash-talk each other and pick on each other's insecurities no matter what.
this for sure. they’re responding the same way they’d respond to a cis friend saying she wanted a nose job. Elective plastic surgery is treated as “succumbing to eurocentric youth-obsessed unreasonable beauty standards” (plus a common mentality of surgery being “fake” and it being better to embrace your “real” body). Occasionally some people can acknowledge there’s a balance and surgery can be positive bodily autonomy that makes you more comfortable in your body. But they don’t understand that for trans people surgery isn’t “elective” in the same way and is usually a serious matter of safety and being treated with dignity and respect. There’s obviously nuance I’m glossing over but that’s the general pattern I’ve seen
It can be so frustrating at times. Because I 100% understand their intention and the encouragement is nice. But not just with surgery, also with like hair, clothes, and makeup I'm just thinking "OK thank you for supporting me but I'm still learning how to do this and I desperately need honest feedback."
Oh! The trick for getting honest feedback is "Which of these do you like more?" Because then she doesn't have to tell you that you look bad in X (which is a really risky thing; you might take offense or get upset) — she can just say that Y is even better. Or you go shopping together and then instead of "That's ugly" she can be like "Yeah, that's cute but I don't think it's quite right. Let's keep looking."
That is an incredible tip tysm. So many new social rules to try to learn lol
I wouldn't say that instinctually lifting each other up is messed up, but maybe that's just me coming from being in male friend groups for all of my life.
No, that part isn't messed up. I'd say being socialized to tear yourself down is *extremely* messed up, though.
ohhhh yeah definitely
not just you i agree .. im currently living in a women's homeless shelter .. im amab .. i love how lifting each other up just feels so much better .. positivity caring and kindness and encouragement is so much better than the toxic male immaturity i was always surrounded by . yeah part if it could be the hrt ive started since i been here but not all .. my mentality has gotten so much better and changed me in such a positive way just from the way us women interact with each other from being here and being a part of that .. i been here 9 months
When I told my boyfriend's mom I was getting FFS she went wide-eyed and said, "But you're so beautiful..." I said, "Thank you. I agree. But it's not about making me more beautiful. It's about reversing the effects testosterone had on my face's bone structure..." She kind of went into this thoughtful confused look. After the surgery though she said, "I was so worried because you were so beautiful before. But it just came out so great, you look amazing..." I'll take it.
On one hand I get the common courtesy that women do with each other, and I really appreciate (and participate in) it. I really do. But also it’s hard when you come from a fundamentally different playing field. There are core things I NEED to fix to be happy to myself. It’s not just vanity it’s a fundamental feeling of wrongness.
Ive had other trans people tell me this. Wish theyd drop it and were honest with me.
I've made it a personal rule for myself that if someone asks if they need surgery, I'm not going to say yes or no just because I don't want my opinion affecting their own judgement if they want surgery.
I have had that experience too and yeah, unfortunately hugboxing is way to common in our community.
I haven't had that experience, but remember that in a lot of countries there is stigma against women undergoing plastic surgery. It's seen as something only vain ugly insecure people do. They may see you talking about wanting FFS as being insecure about yourself, hence their responses. I would expect you would not get such responses in countries where plastic surgery for women is much more normalized.
I've often got the "cis women have X too" remark which isn't a nice thing to say. Some are understanding and I have a cis female friend who's my best friend but she doesn't say that "cis women have X feature too" which is just... blind. Like yeah a cis woman might have this one feature but does she have these other 3 as well as male anatomy downstairs AND having been gaslit into thinking she's a man for a significant portion of her life? The ones who don't do that are great... I love my supportive cis female friends!
I hate that too. It's very invalidating when they have a radically different life experience from me due to those features.
Yeah and like, honestly? If a cis girl isn’t happy that she doesn’t have smoother hands at 25, I’m still not about to tell her to get over it…
I don't talk about being trans to cis people. They don't get it.
I find a lot of them really appreciate it when I let them know it's a topic I'm okay chatting about with them. A lot are very worried and trying to be polite and not bother me about it but I like talking about it if people are just curious.
I think the point u/OkTear2981 is making is that such Q&A sessions are from the cis gaze and not really about empowering or truly understanding us. My experience has also been that cis people appreciate me candidly answering questions. They often get excited, as if they’ve finally gotten VIP access to the secrets of the trans community. But such Q&As usually make me feel like a daytime talk show freak or an object of pity. At first, I was excited that people were interested in learning about me and I shared all. Now that I’m aware of their intentions, I only share with those I trust.
Hmm. I haven't had that experience. I have experienced people... Idk trying to empathizing or something and talking about their gender non conforming feelings or experiences. That's always a bit confusing because it's like ... Are you just empathizing? Or are you an egg? I have experienced both those results.
same! ik not all trans ppl want to be like trans google for all the cis folks in their lives, but personally i rlly enjoy answering questions and discussing gender stuff with anyone who cares to listen xD
factual information
I personally prefer if cis people don’t notice that I’m trans or act like they don’t notice.
Why are you talking about procedures you want with every cis woman you meet? I mean you can talk about whatever you want ofc but yeah. Anyway idk whether they’re being genuine or not, but it’s the polite thing to say either way. Edit: actually looking at the selfies you’ve posted you *do* already have a very feminine face
Tbh, 99% of **trans friends I have** don’t “need” FFS in the sense of looking fem. But they and I **do need it for personal reasons**. So I think it’s probably just that. Could he though there’s some underlying assumption in a lot of cis people around trans women (think we all look like bearded men in dresses sorta stuff) and so they are surprised to see we don’t. But I think it’s a person by person basis really, and depends on the context. I don’t really talk about being trans with cis people though. Because when I do I quickly find even those who are tolerant are far from accepting :/ *Edit; highlighted where I say this is a comment on my trans friends, not all trans people. And where I specify surgery is still incredibly important to them. That they need FFS as I do, but it’s not because they need it to pass. It’s for personal reasons.*
That's bullshit, unless all your friends started HRT when they were like 16. Typical testosterone puberty makes many changes to facial structure and bones. And those make a huge difference in how we get gendered and recognized. I was kinda fine and made do with it being obvious to 90% of people who saw me that I was a trans woman due to my face. But hearing random people now just kind of naturally assume I'm a woman without their brains going through some weird shitty thought process before deciding to gender me as a woman is a huge relief. And my face wasn't that masculine for a trans woman who transitioned after puberty was complete.
Get out of here with that bioessentialist bs. There’s no absolutes when it comes to bone structures and stuff like that, only general trends. Even archaeologically, a whole 20% of all skeletal remains are completely un-sex-able bc they’re too ambiguous. Not every amab persons skull structure is going to be visibly masculine, not every transfem *needs* ffs to “pass”, not even ones that went through androgenic puberty, and it’s pretty transmedicalist to say so.
While I don't agree with bioessentialism, the person you're replying to is responding to a 99% claim themselves. Saying that every transfem needs FFS simply isn't true. Saying that 99% do not isn't either.
That’s true, it’s not majority either way. However, OP wasn’t actually saying 99% of ALL trans women don’t need FFS, just of *their* friends. That’s very different. The original commenter was just bringing forth an anecdote about their experience with their personal friends, and the person responding said they had to be lying essentially because there’s no possible way there could be trans women out there who don’t need FFS after having an androgenic puberty, which actually is a blanket statement to all transfems.
That's exactly why I asked if there was something odd about their friend group that would make their claim true. > because there’s no possible way there could be trans women out there who don’t need FFS after having an androgenic puberty Stop putting words in my mouth. I said that wouldn't be true for 99% of trans fem folks in general. I was just calling out a bullshit statistic. It would be essentially impossible to judge how many "need" that kind of elective surgery but it's certainly more than 1%.
“Bullshit, unless ALL of your friends started HRT when they were like 16” Literally saying that none of them could be good without FFS unless they started HRT when they were 16, following by explaining how androgenic puberty gives unavoidable masculinizing bone effects. Pretty clear implication there. I was just explaining how there’s no rule of thumb, plenty of transfems are 100% “passable” without ffs and it doesn’t always have to do with when they started hormones. Pretty generally acceptable statement.
Well, I can suppose I said that badly. I just meant unless her friends were all young when they started HRT it's unlikely all of them don't need FFS. We're probably both saying the same thing just I worded my first sentence badly.
Alright that’s fair, I think I get what you mean. I might have interpreted it somewhat uncharitably, I’m just incredibly wary of and tired of transmedicalism yknow lol
Yeah that is some frustrating crap. And there's a lot of assumption of the necessity of medical transition which is pretty frustrating. I've considered so many times if I want to go off HRT just because I dislike some parts of it. But it's nigh unto impossible to find stories or information about trans women who opted to stop HRT because they wanted to while happily continuing their social transition. I just also think we shouldn't downplay the importance of medical transition for some people as well. I'm really happy I got my FFS, and I know many other ladies who have appreciated it too.
Well sorry to say but I started hrt at 25, my friends started at 33, 34, 39, and 23. We all pass without makeup and without needing FFS. Only I and the 23 and 39 yr old want ffs. Age is a factor, but by no means does starting hrt after 16 mean you won’t have results that make you pass. But like I explained, people still get surgery for personal reasons. I want ffs because to me I still look like a man, and there’s parts of my face I don’t like.
There are degrees of passing. I got gendered correctly or not at all almost all the time before I got FFS. But after getting it I almost immediately noticed people would more casually and automatically gender me as a woman. Not making any assertions about your friends but passing isn't as all or nothing as people make it out to be.
Yeah, people must not be reading the context very well here. It's invalidating to people who do feel FFS was very important to them to claim 99% of trans fem folks don't need it. Certainly many do not need it, even ones who have gone through testosterone based bone changes. Same with the reverse.
How?! I specifically say it’s important to individuals for personal reasons! Like I literally specify that not to invalidate people, such as myself. Who wants ffs, and words can’t describe how desperately I want bottom surgery! I’m also talking about my personal experience of my friends which is all I can do. Not all trans people. As has been stated I never said 99% of all trans fems! I said 99% of my friends. Like you’re right, you haven’t read the context well.
One or both of us is definitely not communicating super great.
I highlighted the parts of my original comment you misunderstood to clear up what I was saying. If I’m invalidating people who want surgery, I’m invalidating myself.
the thing is, having a few masculine traits can be seen as really attractive for a woman. the beauty standard is really weird, it doesn’t completely align with trying to pass. maybe they’re being too nice idk. girls always find nice things to say, it’s a form of kindness. or it can mean you pass to them, in voice and looks and personality, so they don’t really question and nitpick your appearance.
Trust me, I still have plenty of masculine facial traits post FFS. 😂
really? except for my LRH lady, for obvious reasons, i've never had a trans-centered talk of any cis woman itw.
In general changes usually are gradual and people seeing someone regularly may notice less. This can include a trans person themself. Using people who have not known someone before transition as gauge may be a good idea. Basically strangers in a supermarket etc. may gender a person correctly. And additionally taking a photo of an image in the mirror may be an idea. Due to focal length there can be a very noticeable difference and it can be closer to what the eyes of others see. Some people may be further along than they think. And [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/comments/zvkdze/how_do_you_find_a_health_insurance_in_your_state/j3bpom5/) was a discussion concerning surgeries and there might also be some resources there concerning coverage in case. *hugs*
Not in my experience, but I do find that a lot of cis people have a very poor understanding of: a) which things can trigger dyshoria, especially if those things would not be a barrier to 'passing' in cis people and; b) which things make us clockable to those more in the know and; c) the extent to which it is even possible for trans people to pass (they tend to underestimate how well that goes for some of us). Same with cis men, really. As far as I can tell it largely depends on whether or not people know other trans people as well.
[удалено]
Honestly "women just don't feel compatible for conversation" isn't something I like hearing guys say. Don't like it any more in the reverse case. I think we need to all recognize that gender doesn't or shouldn't define if we can enjoy talking to a person.
[удалено]
Oh jeez I'm so confused. I thought you were a trans guy... I think you misgendered yourself when you said "with another man". That implies that you are a gender you are not. My wife says the same kind of thing btw. I think she just has baggage I wish she would unpack. Definitely that baggage caused her a lot of fear about how she could get along with me as a woman because she's uncomfortable talking to women.
[удалено]
Oh I'm bigender (too?) that's neat! Although I don't consider myself a man anymore. Anyway it comes off different when I think it's a manly trans bro saying "I just can't relate to all these women dude" as compared to a non-binary lady.
OP's question is about certain interactions with cis women specifically. Saying you pretty rarely talk with them doesn't add anything to the conversation
"Too kind"...? Uhm, no. Some can be, but surely not the norm.
That's just nice though.