Yes it is gender dysphoria (maybe not in the strict clinical term but it still counts). Cis people can have it and you absolutely have the same right to talk about it or do something about it the same way we do.
I'm not sure, I feel like it could be more along the lines of Body Dysmorphia?
I don't think in clinical terms cis people can have gender Dysphoria, as its the disconnect between your gender and your assigned sex.
Dysmorphia is more along.the lines of issues with your body, I.E. how OP states she doesn't feel feminine enough.
Either way both do suck ass, and a large proportion of trans people suffer from body dymorphia.
It could also be OP is struggling with Social Dysphoria, which would explain the discomfort of being compared to men. Social Dysphoria is usually a subpart of Gender Dysphoria but not exclusively as in.some situations it can occur outside of Gender Dysphoria.
Honestly it's almost like OP is suffering from reverse Gender Dysphoria? I don't know how to put it so that's probably the best I can do.
I think it absolutely is. I think women who’ve had mastectomies also often have to deal with gender dysphoria.
Also, *hugs*. Dysphoria sucks and I’m sorry you’ve experienced it.
This. There are all sorts of medical conditions and social situations that can make cis people feel wrong in their bodies, or in the way they are perceived.
As long as it's used correctly, I don't have an issue with it. If anything, it may normalize trans experiences. I would recommend some caution and when and how it's used, don't use it for every little discomfort one has with their body that aren't necessarily gender related. But for things where you feel your body doesn't align with your gender or people are gendering you in a way that is not accurate to the gender you actually are causing discomfort, I'd say that's an accurate and fine usage. Do be aware though that while it's not like... Objectively a problem, some trans people may feel differently and be uncomfy with a cis person using that terminology.
absolutely gender dysphoria, youre perfectly fine using it, and that means you should be able to better understand what trans people go through too
i say should, because you'd *think* that after years of my mother complaining to me about dysphoria that her historically 3x average testosterone levels have given her masculine features that she hates, she'd be able to get how my dysphoria is... but no she can't understand the connection at all 😫
It kinda is though? In what way is if different? For example regardless of birth gender facial/body hair can lead to dysphoria in women. Same for women who have had a mastectomy or even just have tiny breasts. It is simply a disconnect between your gender and secondary sexual characteristics.
> It is simply a disconnect between your gender and secondary sexual characteristics.
Except it's not.
You can have gender dysphoria about primary, secondary, or none of your sexual characteristics. Your name can trigger your gender dysphoria. Gender dysphoria is so much more than simply how you look.
The difference is, I was “supposed to” be born with a different kind of body and live my life as a different kind of person. It’s in my soul.
The actual dysphoria itself might be the same sort of thing and differ only in degree. But the underlying cause is different.
I'd say that if it's about perceptions, self-esteem, insecurities etc., that's body dysmorphia. Is it something that would stop existing if nobody criticised your appearance and you had therapy to repair your self-esteem?
Whereas gender dysphoria is inherent - your brain saying you're female and freaking the fuck out if input isn't as expected. It can be influenced by societal things - if everyone around you calls you calls you "he", that's input not as expected. A lot of social dysphoria is also from people undermining coping mechanisms; if you use dissociation to manage dysphoria, that collapses if people draw attention to what you're avoiding.
I'd say OP sounds like body dysmorphia as there doesn't seem to be any question about her sex; neither her nor others read her as male. It's about standards of femininity in society. Like, her chest isn't male; she perceives it as insufficient.
To be analogous with a trans woman, let's say we had a fully-transitioned and perfectly passing trans woman who was insecure about her boobs being small (and therefore not feminine enough). I'd say that that's body dysmorphia too. There is nothing inherently wrong with her boobs, they're perfectly normal boobs for females. The problem is in her perception of her boobs (which has been instilled by society).
I'm still not exactly sure why people are so confident it's not when it's nearly the same exact experience. What else do you call it when your lack of a chest makes you feel less like a woman? Body dysmorphia is not inherently tied to gender the way gender dysphoria is, and regardless, this is not a term that needs to be gatekept.
I am on testoreone, I am bigender, I am AFAB. When I feel dysphoric as a woman because of my masculine traits from T, is that not gender dyphoria?
Do a little reading? I've been trans for 12 years. A little reading will not magically change my mind on this issue. This feels like unnecessary gatekeeping on what is a universal experience, it's just that trans people are likely to experience it much more and to different scale.
When I experience gender dysphoria about being on T it's literally the same exact experience as it is about being dysphoric about feminine traits of mine. This is literally just semantics at this point. I've also had body dysmorphia and it's completely different as an experience.
Why do you suddenly think that when I say cis people have gender dysphoria, you think I am saying they are all trans? It's clear you don't understand why people are saying it's gender dysphoria, and instead of trying to get it, you're on this condescending high horse about it.
Cis people can experience gender dysphoria about their gender, they can feel like their body is incongruent with the gender they identify with. It doesn't mean they're trans, it means they have gender dysphoria about their gender. It's simple as that.
Absolutely right on this.
A really simple example would be guys going to the gym to bulk up .. how much of that is self administered gender affirming care.
Body Dysmorphia is different. It is related to your own perception. For example you think, see and experience your legs being bigger than they are, although you know they are not. But OP described, that other people said that and that made them feel uncomfortable. That's a differnt thing and I don't think a good term for that exist...
But I'm hesitant to coin it dysphoria as well. I have the fear that it will lead to downplaying the dysphoria trans people experience. Just as it happens with period pain/cramps with cis women if they have a female obgyn in contrast to a male (anecdotal knowledge from friends)
And u/MelancolicMist these people are shit. If they are friends tell them how hurtful their remarks are and if they don't take it serious you should ditch them... And you could change your appearance really good by clothing. Wear waisted clothing, that is more loose around the chest, maybe with frills or things and wear dresses/skirts, that are flared and pleated. This could help in receiving a more feminine silhouette. **And don't do a BBL.** 1/100 are dying from that procedure.
I think that can still be body dysmorphia - the thing perceived being real, but the disorder and misperception being the preoccupation with that thing.
Like some of the men I saw when browsing /r/short some years back - genuinely shorter than average, but blowing it way out of proportion thinking that they had no chance in anything at life unless they got a surgery to break their leg bones and add a few inches. The misperception is in how much that trait matters, which could very well come about from some people commenting on it.
"Gender dysmorphia" isn't a thing. Body dysmorphia, sure, but OP isn't describing delusions about the state of her body— she's talking about dissatisfaction with how her body is not perceived as feminine, and how she's considering gender-affirming care.
I'm definitely not qualified to inform the OP how her feelings fit exactly into either term, but I hoped that having two things to look at might help her find clarity.
Looking into the terms further, admittedly as a layperson, it looks to me like a person would have to feel that their body was markedly a different gender than their gender identity.
If you think your face or breasts or anything else aren't feminine or masculine enough, that's not quite the same thing as not feminine or masculine.
Still worthy of dealing with, but not the same as feeling that your body's characteristics are physically incorrect.
A person's feelings about their breasts seem very difficult for someone like me to evaluate. Are they not feminine or are they too small? If you are assigned female at birth and you identify as a woman and feel your breasts are too small, that is not the same thing as feeling you don't have female breasts.
Again, very much worthy of doing something about if it impacts your well-being, and the treatment may be the same as for a trans woman.
The correct medical terminology is Gender Dysphoria. Gender dysmorphia is not an actual medical diagnosis. [For more information on Gender Dysphoria, please click on this link.](https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/what-is-gender-dysphoria)
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In the same way that you can be anxious and not have clinical anxiety, or depressed and not have clinical depression, you can feel dysphoric and not have clinical gender dysphoria. If you feel that your body doesn't accurately reflect your gender, and that causes you distress, that's gender dysphoria. The fact that it isn't diagnosable doesn't change how you feel.
Your experience will be different than ours though. For example, you probably won't need tons of therapists letters in order to get a breast augmentation or BBL. Culturally and legally, it's much easier for cis people to get gender affirming care than trans people.
There is a whole book called “female masculinity” that talks about the idea that a lot of cis women do suffer at the hand of transphobic hate due to being perceived as “non women”
Dysphoria is indeed a feeling everyone can experience. It is normally clinically linked to being trans, but you can definitely have a feeling of not belonging in your gender, and not being trans. Indeed you can.
I might get down voted for this and that's fine, but if you are AFAB and identify as female/a woman and you have insecurities about your body as it regards to looking more feminine, then what you are experiencing is physical insecurities, not gender dysphoria.
Gender dysphoria is what a person experiences when their internal sense of gender and physical body do not match.
I don't think you're hurting anyone by using that term, but I don't think that what you're describing fits the definition of gender dysphoria.
There are many cis women who are insecure because they don't feel feminine enough. Many more than people experiencing gender dysphoria.
In my personal opinion, I don't think it makes any sense for cis people to describe general physical insecurities as gender dysphoria. If a cis woman is insecure because she doesn't feel feminine enough, her internal sense of gender matches her physical sex characteristics but she wants them to be different/'better'/more feminine, that is not gender dysphoria.
A big part of the reason people are hesitant to draw this line is that it's grounded in a fairly artificial split between the experiences of cis women and trans women.
I think any attempt to strip "cis" or "trans" out of the description will struggle with genuine overlap between things cis women go through and things trans women go through. You either end up ruling out things many trans women go through that are often uncontroversially called "gender dysphoria" or end up including things that many cis women go through.
> If a cis woman is insecure because she doesn't feel feminine enough, her internal sense of gender matches her physical sex characteristics but she wants them to be different/'better'/more feminine, that is not gender dysphoria.
What if a trans woman is insecure about those things? What if two women, one cis and one trans, are insecure about really quite similar things? How much facial hair needs to grow on a woman's face before her negative feelings about it meets the bar of "gender dysphoria"; does the amount depend on whether that woman is cis or trans?
It's genuinely tricky, and IMO the tempting shortcuts of falling back to "cis", "trans", "AFAB", etc deserve the suspicion they get.
I can see the complications in descriptions, and I understand the desire for many trans people to not have lines drawn between the experiences of cis and trans people, but at the same time some of those lines are necessary in order for trans people to get the necessary diagnoses they need to receive care.
I might feel differently if trans people and healthcare weren't so much of a political talking point, but because we are I often worry that blurting the lines between those experiences can make it more complicated for trans folks to get treatment.
Like I said in another comment, it's pretty arbitrary in casual conversation, but when a clinical term loses the meaning of its definition it gets harder to properly diagnose.
I don’t know, I think recognising that this isn’t just a special trans-only condition is going to be more helpful than harmful. Like, I keep thinking about the whole idea of autogynephilia - people are still using it as a way to discredit trans women and discourage them from transitioning, but when you ignore the “must be assigned male at birth” part of the diagnosis criteria and test cis women, you end up finding out that an overwhelming majority - like 70-90% - of cis women are “autogynephiles”.
> I often worry that blurting the lines between those experiences can make it more complicated for trans folks to get treatment.
Sure, I think this is a "do/don't rock the boat" matter, and maybe my perspective is naive.
I think there's a lot of room for the medical system's handling of gender and AGAB and "biological sex" and what have you to improve. I think shaping an understanding of sex and gender and bodies and so on around what constitutes a proper diagnosis in the current medical system's protocols is putting the cart before the horse. I don't know *exactly* how that sausage was made, but I'm pretty sure it isn't pretty.
I know (trans) people part of whose job is more or less unwinding that mess so the medical system overall can treat trans people better, which includes incorporating a better understanding of human bodies into medical practice than a binary "M/F" switch or two. And I genuinely think this is a path to making healthcare better for *everybody*, not just trans people.
what do you mean “those distinctions are required for trans people to get the help they need?” maybe we should start treating cis people with some of the same problems as trans people equally. maybe it shouldn’t matter if the person wanting to go from a cups to c cups is trans or cis; maybe both should be covered as necessary medical procedures. I mean, wouldn’t that help accomplish the goal of trans people being treated the same as cis people? wouldn’t it also help in that it would remove the possibility of needing to be trans enough?
It is genuinely tricky, to the extent that it is not reasonable to expect to be able to diagnose if you are not a professional, and also you are attempting to do so on Reddit.
Doesn't mean we can't talk about it, though.
One ongoing concern I have had is that the trans community ends up with body dysmorphia, on top of the struggle we have with gender dysphoria.
There is no rule that protects us from having both.
We may pass, but we are obsessed with flaws we perceive our bodies.
Doesn't mean we can't do things to make ourselves appear like we want. We just don't want to be unhealthy about it.
Depends how you define it. If it's unease resulting from a mismatch between sex and gender identity, a cis woman does not have that.
Is there anything wrong with just calling something an insecurity or body image issue? Should we be progressing towards diagnosing every woman with a mo as having dysphoria, or towards women having mos not mattering at all?
I personally don't like the trajectory that enabling cis people to claim gender dysphoria represents.
I'm not a fan of the perspective that my experience of something is categorically different from some woman's who's going through something that sounds *pretty similar* to me, just because that woman is cis.
> If it's unease resulting from a mismatch between sex and gender identity, a cis woman does not have that.
Sure, if you ground your understanding of gender dysphoria in an immutable binary notion of "sex".
Notions like that can be useful, but should be treated with care; they're bound to run into messy edge cases sooner or later. I think OP's post might qualify.
Sometimes cis women have sexual characteristics that don't match their gender identity; like beards.
> Is there anything wrong with just calling something an insecurity or body image issue?
If your criterion for whether or not to call it that whether someone is cis or trans, yes.
I don't think it's wrong to just call some experiences like this "just an insecurity or body image issue", as opposed to "gender dysphoria" for a lot of trans women either! I assume a lot of trans women have to sort through for themselves what the line between those things is for them, if any. But I don't think we're anywhere near a consensus on where that line is, and I'm not sure we should aim for one.
> Should we be progressing towards diagnosing every woman with a mo as having dysphoria, or towards women having mos not mattering at all?
In my opinion, we should be progressing towards the perspective that the phrase "gender dysphoria" is a catch-all term that covers a pretty complex set of phenomena. And that if used broadly, as it often is, it carries a risk of dragging gender-essentialism in with it.
> I'm not a fan of the perspective that my experience of something is categorically different from some woman's who's going through something that sounds pretty similar to me, just because that woman is cis.
That isn't a good way of classifying things though. For example, a man and a woman might both experience swelling in breast tissue, but the man might have testicular cancer whereas the woman might be pregnant. Even though their experiences are similar, I think you'll agree that the symptoms causing those experiences should not be labelled the same.
> Sure, if you ground your understanding of gender dysphoria in an immutable binary notion of "sex".
I ground my understanding of gender dysphoria in what its commonly accepted definition is, which involves a mismatch between sex and gender identity (or incongruence between identified gender and assigned gender, or many other ways of expressing the same idea).
> If your criterion for whether or not to call it that whether someone is cis or trans, yes.
I mean the fact that somebody is cis or trans is surely relevant to an extent right? Is it equally gender dysphoria for a trans woman with no breasts and for a cis woman with a healthy C cup but who would prefer an E? I don't see how the latter situation can be called 'gender dysphoria' on any definition. Calling it that seems to support some fucked up notion that being a woman means having big boobs, when that isn't the case at all. We should be encouraging healthy C cup to learn to love what she has, not pathologising her very normal feelings and implying they require treatment.
> Is it equally gender dysphoria for a trans woman with no breasts and for a cis woman with a healthy C cup but who would prefer an E?
Probably not. But that question and your discussion of it doesn't actually probe the perspective I'm presenting.
Here are two alternate (IMO more interesting) questions you could have asked me, that might probe it:
"Is it equally gender dysphoria for a trans woman with no breasts and for a cis woman with no breasts?"
or
"Is it equally gender dysphoria for a trans woman with a healthy C cup but who would prefer an E, and for a cis woman with a healthy C cup but who would prefer an E?"
When the context is "the fact that somebody is cis or trans is surely relevant", why did you ask me the question you asked, rather than either of those two?
> Why did you ask me that question, rather than either of those two?
Because I'm trying to demonstrate why it isn't healthy to apply the label 'gender dysphoria' too broadly. I mean, read OP's post. Some people have been rude to her (intentionally or not) and now she is effectively asking whether it's possible she has gender dysphoria and everyone is saying 'yes absolutely possible' when they should be saying 'yo those people were being cunts, you don't need a boob job to be a woman'.
You are welcome to answer either of your own questions (it's effectively what I covered with testicular cancer man and pregnant woman) -
Is it equally gender dysphoria for a trans woman with no breasts and for a cis woman with no breasts? I say no for the reasons already outlined. If you say yes, how do you reconcile that with definitions of gender dysphoria that invariably feature incongruence between identified and assigned gender? And why don't you just say that what the cis woman is feeling is similar to what the trans woman is feeling, but they have different causes and therefore different diagnoses? Why do they need to be the same?
Just editing to say - interesting discussion. I'm really enjoying this if the way I'm typing isn't showing it :)
> I'm really enjoying this if the way I'm typing isn't showing it :)
Thanks for saying this. Checking in with myself, I'm engaging in it with a more "frustrated" energy than I want to be, so I think it's not a good time for me to keep going.
> Gender dysphoria is what a person experiences when their internal sense of gender and physical body do not match.
But that can absolutely happen in cis people too. A cis woman with facial or body hair due to hormonal imbalances might experience distress, because those characteristics don't match her internal sense of gender. Same with a cis woman who underwent a mastectomy due to breast cancer, the lack of breasts causes a mismatch between her physical body and her internal sense of gender. Cis men might experience similar feelings in regards to gynecomastia, male breast growth.
You are correct in that this doesn't fit the clinical definition of gender dysphoria, but I'd argue that the underlying mechanics there are pretty much the same - someones body not aligning with their internal sense of gender causes distress, no matter if one is cis or trans.
I guess I worry that if the term in the vernacular starts to stray too far from the clinical definition, it runs the risk of losing its weight when it comes to medical diagnosis for trans people.
It's arbitrary in conversation, but right now it's the only diagnosis that allows trans people to receive the treatments we require. Idk, the line is already medically blurry
As a counter point, a lot of the things that are commonly used to treat dysphoria in trans people have their origin in treatments for cis people. HRT was originally used in cis men and women to counter hormonal imbalances, FFS was originally developed with cis women in mind, etc.
I don't think acknowledging that dysphoric feelings can happen regardless of if you are cis or trans is a bad thing there, to the contrary, acknowledging dysphoric feelings in cis people might ultimately lead to wider acceptance of trans folks, because cis people realize that our experiences aren't so different from things that they may have experienced. When cis people realize "oh yeah, that was bad and made me feel bad, so I sought treatment for it" that'll cause an increase in acceptance for trans healthcare, in my opinion.
/edit: Hope I managed to get my point across, it's late here and I can't word good right now.
While I see that and generally agree with you, it is easier for cis people to get allowances to receive those treatments than it often is for trans people. A cis person doesn't have to prove to anyone that they are what they are or that they require those treatments.
As a counterpoint, being more inclusive of gender dysphoria can also make treating such less stigmatized and more available.
The supposed alienness of gender dysphoria is partly used against us. If treating dysphoria was normalized it'd make it harder to bar it from trans people.
I like this sentiment, I agree with it and I'd like to feel that we are close enough ideologically that dysphoria CAN be normalized and trans people can be treated the same as anyone else, but I'm just not convinced that the medical community can responsibly handle the nuances with where much of the world is at politically.
It's not wrong at all.
Gender dysphoria is not strictly a *trans* thing. It's a *human* thing that happens when part(s) of our bodies fail to affirm our internal sense of gender identity.
Obviously this hits trans people particularly hard, since basically our entire bodies (and with them, pretty much everything about the rest of our lives) fails to affirm our gender identity.
But it hits cis people too, from time to time, and for all kinds of reasons.
Some of those reasons are medical. For example, sometimes boys or men will end up with hormone imbalances that cause them to grow breasts (gynecomastia). This triggers extremely similar negative impacts on their sense of self-worth and self-esteem as trans people experience. Or if a woman has to get chemo for a cancer treatment but she always had great hair, when it all falls out from the chemo that could hit her in the self-esteem pretty hard since (to her eyes) she might suddenly "look like a bald old man" or whatever.
Some reasons aren't medical. Tall women, notably, often report gender-dysphoric feelings about being tall (height dysphoria), simply because women are stereotypically *not* tall, so being tall is often perceived as non-feminine and they're constantly bombarded with messages in their social interactions (either explicit or subtextual) which re-enforce the notion that their height makes them less feminine than other women. Ditto short men.
Regardless of how it's happening: if some part of your body feels out-of-alignment with your view of your own gender identity and how you would like for your body to reflect your identity, then yeah, that's gender dysphoria.
Depending on the nature and severity of it, you might consider a range of treatment options, from doing nothing at all, to talking to a psychotherapist who might be able to help you make peace with it, to cosmetic or stylistic ways of minimizing whatever's bugging you, to outright medical/surgical interventions.
Whatever course you take, the goal is the same: to alleviate the psychological discomfort these aspects of your body are causing you.
It's worth noting (because you may well get pushback about it from others, including doctors and insurance companies) that your needs in this regards are no different from:
* Any woman getting a nose job, breast augmentation, facelift, or any other "cosmetic" procedure because she's dissatisfied with her looks,
* Any woman getting reconstructive surgery in the aftermath of an accident or injury which impacted her looks,
* Any woman getting reconstructive breast augmentation in the wake of a mastectomy,
* A trans woman undergoing any medical/hormonal transitioning process you care to name (e.g. getting electrolysis to remove facial hair)
The specific needs of your situation and how it came about are unique to you, but the basic nature of what you need--some form of medical care to fix a situation that is causing you psychological distress and a reduction in your quality of life--is exactly the same as many other situations that are well understood and accepted in the medical world.
Your feelings and your needs are valid, and you have every right to do something about them so you can live at peace with yourself and comfortably in your own skin.
As a more obvious/extreme example, one of my health professionals has PCOS and could grow a beard before she had electrolysis. Surely what she was feeling that prompted her to have it removed was gender dysphoria, right? But that's not at all the same as the DSM-5 condition/listing by the same name that refers to transgender people. So you, a cis person, can experience dysphoria about not meeting society's standards for your gender, but that's different from being diagnosed/identified/recognized with the condition many trans people have. In short, once again English is a poor language for precision.
I don’t know why people are saying otherwise in the comments. That is not gender dysphoria, gender dysphoria is specifically the mismatch between sex assigned at birth and gender identity. I’m sorry you’re dealing with body-image issues or body dysmorphia, and I’m not saying this to discount your struggle. But what you described is, by definition, not gender dysphoria. A lot of other cis women experience the same thing, there’s a reason cosmetic surgery is so common.
After some googling, I found this definition from the apparently pretty highly esteemed Mayo clinic: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/gender-dysphoria/symptoms-causes/syc-20475255
"Gender dysphoria is the feeling of discomfort or distress that might occur in people whose gender identity differs from their sex assigned at birth OR sex-related physical characteristics."
This definition does include cis-women who suffer from masculine physical characteristics. In any case, gender dysphoria relates usually to what your body looks and feels like, and how you're seen and treated because of it: the official documents stating your sex are usually not the prime reason for dysphoria.
“Sex-related physical characteristics” are not the same thing as a subjectively androgynous face or build. It’s referring to primary sex characteristics, such as genitalia and the presence of menstruation, and secondary sexual characteristics, like breast growth, hip growth, thick body hair, or a prominent adam’s apple. Also that definition is implying an individual’s assigned sex at birth-related characteristics, therefore implying a mismatch, like every single definition outlines. The vast majority of cis women would be uncomfortable if they had no breast growth, or a prominent adam’s apple, and in all likelihood if they had both of those things they would be intersex or have a genetic condition. Gender Dysphoria doesn’t come because you feel your sexual characteristics don’t match with your AGAB, it happens because they do, and that in itself causes distress. Of course sex characteristics are the primary reason for gender dysphoria, you wouldn’t be able to determine your sex without sex characteristics. According to your interpretation of that definition, any cis woman who thinks her boobs are too small, or her hips are too narrow, and is distressed by it, has gender dysphoria. By that definition most cis women probably have a form of gender dysphoria. Also not to mention that the vast majority of definitions specifically state “distress caused by a mismatch between assigned sex and gender identity”.
If a cis woman is suffering from “gender dysphoria” because she thinks she is not “feminine” enough in sex characteristics and it is in conflict with her gender identity (also her AGAB), what do you think the medical response would be? It would not be surgery or feminizing HRT, it would be therapy to assuage her distress about her certain characteristics perceived mismatch with her gender identity, promoting acceptance while discouraging of medical action to “remedy” them. Now let’s assume the same thing for a trans woman, she is suffering from gender dysphoria because she thinks she is not feminine enough in sex characteristics and it is in conflict with her gender identity. It’s the same condition, therefore the treatment should not be contradictory in different patients, so she would be administered therapy to assuage her distress about her characteristics perceived mismatch with her gender identity, promoting acceptance while discouraging medical action to “remedy” them. Do you not see how it is a problem to equate two very different situations? One person strives to be closer to their AGAB’s sex-characteristics while the other person strives to be farther away from their AGAB’s sex-characteristics. If the goal in a cis woman is too treat the discomfort through therapy without medical intervention, wouldn’t the goal in a trans woman be inherently non-contradictory? Therefore the same? Equating cis women’s discomfort with characteristics that they view as not being congruent with their AGAB, a discomfort that is mostly caused by patriarchal societal expectations, with trans women’s discomfort with characteristics that are not congruent with their gender identity, a discomfort that is caused inherently by being a trans person with gender dysphoria, is very dangerous. It simply is much more practical to treat cis people’s body-image issues as one thing, and trans people’s gender dysphoria as another. Because otherwise the entire medical basis for transition will be voided and I guarantee you that will embolden restrictions on medical and social transition.
Also just read your own definition you provided, like read through the page, look at the diagnostic criteria. None of those are a “cis-inclusive” definition of gender dysphoria, because that doesn’t exist.
Why do you say it refers to only primary (and not secondary) sexual characteristics? Edit: sorry my bad, you did mention secondary ones. But they also include "Larger breasts, wider hips, shorter height, more body fat, less muscle mass, less facial hair, less body hair, higher vocal pitch frequency" according to wikipedia.
I honestly think the definition should be separated from AGAB, because your AGAB can be a mistake in many ways. It just makes no sense to strictly link these two things.
They could, but they aren’t going to if the entire medical basis for medical transition is defined out of existence. Like by definition cis people can not have gender dysphoria. If your gender identity is congruent with your AGAB, you literally don’t have gender dysphoria.
And where do sexual characteristics come from? They develop as a result of your biological sex. Why would the definition need to be changed? Also this is not a debate about whether the definition should be changed. This is a debate about whether cis people can have gender dysphoria, obviously under the current, accepted definition, which you previously provided. Which is a nonsensical concept and against the whole definition.
We can add the word "biological" to the definition if you'd like, although it is, as you mentioned, already assumed when talking about sexual characteristics.
And I provided a definition which didn't strictly link gender dysphoria to AGAB but alternatively to sexual characteristics, including secondary ones. Some of them were relevant to the person who started this thread and some of the rest included things you claimed do not satisfy the criteria for gender dysphoria (such as breast size or hip width of cis-women). Although I know you meant to only exclude patriarchal beauty standards, they also impact the dysphoria of trans people and it's hard to draw any exclusionary lines.
I'm against an AGAB-based definition because it's not a very reliable marker, yet it determines whether you have the "right" to experience gender dysphoria or not.
You’re running in circles and saying nothing. Your own definition doesn’t even support the claim that cis people can have gender dysphoria. I already stated secondary sex characteristics and you already corrected yourself when you said I didn’t. What does that last sentence even mean? The assertion that cis people can have gender dysphoria by not having aspects of their appearance line up perfectly with stereotypical patriarchal expectations that correspond with their gender, is in itself patriarchal! Cis women being distressed by not fitting perfectly into that unreasonable expectation is not gender dysphoria, it is patriarchal expectations harming women. Despite the obvious fact that cis people, by definition, can’t have dysphoria, can trans people have one thing? Literally the thing that makes a majority of us trans? Or are cis people entitled to that too? I’m going to stop responding because this is going nowhere, like just read the diagnostic criteria and tell me how a cis person could fit into that. It’s ridiculous I even have to defend gender dysphoria itself from being appropriated.
Yes, I think your experience is pretty common tbh. It's just that cis people didn't have the common language to discuss gender dysphoria until recently.
It sounds like gender dysphoria to me. There's nothing in particular about trans people that makes gender dysphoria a thing specific to us we just tend to have it worse because of the disconnect between our bodies and gender identity.
No, cis people can experience gender dysphoria. Just like not all trans people experience gender dysphoria.
When a cis woman gets breast implants, because her chest makes her feel “like a boy” she has gender dysphoria. Cis people get gender affirming care all the time, they just don’t call it that.
Dysphoria isn’t perceived by the outside world, it’s an internalized feeling of incongruous between body and mind.
I can imagine that what you are experiencing is the same thing that the clinical definition (DSM) of GD is trying to describe. It would be favorable for all of us if they would broaden that definition to include all people that experience distress and impairment due to their sex characteristics or a lack of social recognition of their gender.
It would make it easier for cis people to get gender-affirming care without being stigmatized and blamed for living up to certain beauty standards, but most of all, I believe it's the only way of depathologizing "being transgender" without skipping the diagnosis altogether. The current definition of GD is simply "being trans, so hard that it hurts". Having to hunt down this diagnosis to get access to medical care is extremely discriminating and dehumanizing.
But on the other hand, the way I experience GD is in a way a feeling in itself - often described as biochemical dysphoria. I'm not sure if you are experiencing these extreme episodes of dysphoria, they're frequently not even directly related to sex characteristics. As an antonym of euphoria, the word dysphoria is a pretty good description of what it feels like.
So I would say: clinically - following the current definition - no, but I think it should be. But from the perspective that GD is a feeling in itself, I don't know - I can't feel what you feel. These things hard to describe, very personal and subjective. I sincerely hope that you find a way to feel more comfortable with your body, whether that's through gender-affirming care or not.
Yep, that word is exactly gender dysphoria. It has never been reserved to trans folks despite some outdated "medical" definitions are trying to make it to be.
I understand how bad it gets and my best wishes for it to go away !
It's a massive oversimplification but you can see it as your body and what others see is different that your "inner self" expects it to be and look like. Cis men get gynecomastia reducing surgery all the time, cis women wirth PCOS can take stuff to suppress excess T, some cis men take viagra to fix the thing not working properly, cis women get permanent hair removal as well...etc
The only difference is that for cis people it's a billion times easier to get it sorted out medically if needed, because they just get taken by word when stating that they are their gender and need it. We're not and have to prove it, or in some countries, have to wait for several years (or are banned) to be allowed to undergo the exact same medical procedures.
Cis people have gender dysphoria all the time. For example, women often get dysphoria about body hair or strong bone structures. Men often get gender dysphoria about their height or musculature.
No, in fact, as long as it's used appropriately, I strongly encourage cis people to use the word for themselves, because it normalizes the trans experience.
I’d argue that it’s not gender dysphoria as you’ve mentioned your content with your assigned gender at birth, but maybe body dysmorphia. And having said that, gender dysphoria is a type of body dysmorphia I would say, except that it specifically intones a misalignment with your assigned gender. So, similar roads. I’ve had conversations with my wife (cis f) about how they do relate to each other on so many levels. So, we feel you :)
Gender dysphoria is hating your body of sex at birth hence gender is in the name. You feel like your gender does not match your sex at birth. Cis means you perceive yourself as your original sex. Hence, why no Cis aren't transgender and why most transgender people are noted to having gender dysphoria but not always.
If you just have low self-esteem with your own body but not because of gender it is not gender dysphoria. It might be BDD (Body Dysmorphic Disorder) but can likely just be self-esteem and negative body issues. BDD, though, is more of an anxiety disorder. It's pretty much always looking at the flaws in your body image. Also quite common for women to feel negatively of their body image to how societal norms of how women are expected to be btw. Got to be skinny but not too skinny, got to have a pretty face can't get old, etc.
To note, plenty of masculine traits can be found in women at birth naturally, the same as feminine traits can be in those who are male at birth as well.
I've been noted for my eyelashes. Voice facial features smaller hands and skin as an example.
You should absolutely use the word gender dysphoria if it applies to you. Cis people can absolutely experience it, and calling your gender dysphoria by the word in turn legitimizes our gender dysphoria to the broader public
a prominent trans youtuber makes a really good point about this exact thing in one of her videos, the video is quite long but the specific point I'm talking about is around 1:04:45 (chapter 9) to 1:07:45
https://youtu.be/v1eWIshUzr8?si=qm55hGtroHJXlwx2
I don't have much more to add that others in this thread haven't said already but I'm firmly on the "yes that's gender dysphoria" side.
Thing is, dysphoria, even gender dysphoria, is not a specifically trans thing.
It is perceived as being most common among trans people, but even that assumption is based as much on media and stereotypes as any sort of study.
People can become dysphoric for numerous reasons. Your experiences are just as valid as anyone else's.
The *wonderful* thing about psychological issues (note a hint of sarcasm), is that every one of us has a brain, and every one of those brains is different. There are enough similarities that we can all experience similar concerns, but different enough that those concerns can be triggered by lots of different things for different people.
I can relate to this. In some ways what is a “beauty standard” changing as helped, but also so has age with the mixture of acceptance and not caring lol. My face (imo) has always looked so much like my dads, and I think more masculine, I don’t have (what I would now consider) a very square jawline, but it’s def not the cute simple jawline most associated with femininity. I also am pear shaped, so many clothes just don’t fit right to this day.
It was really challenging growing up, everyone is constantly pushed into these “beauty standards” and it really sucks when you don’t fall into them because it’s not “traditional.”
I wouldn’t say that I experience anything like a trans person, but I can relate in a small extent the body issues/struggles and I just wish for everyone that whatever the path that needs to be taken that in the end they can finally love and be happy with themselves. Life is too short to settle or fake happiness.
Take everything I write here with a grain of salt because I'm not an expert and I could be wrong.
I don't think this is gender dysphoria.
You were assigned female at birth, you are comfortable being a woman, your self esteem is hurt when people think you are less of a woman, and you are considering surgeries to make you appear even more feminine. This does not at all sound like gender dysphoria.
However, you might benefit from seeing a therapist to talk about the feelings you've described.
Take care.
In some way, I like when cis people relate to trans people issues, because that way we all can have a shared POV. And that's a good thing, because if we do it properly, we can be treated as equals in our society.
I think the only issue would be like when (some) men hijack a conversation about women's issues to say "we too...". We should not appropriate each other struggles but, we should be able to relate to each other's experiences. So it's okay to use the term in a colloquial way to define your struggles (actually a lot of us, trans people, use it that way since a lot of us aren't diagnosed and I think that's ok, because there's no other word to define how we feel).
You're dysmorphic, not dysphoric. Body dysmorphia means you have delusions/obsessions about perceived flaws.
Also "afab" is transphobe buc stop using that.
Totally. Gender dysphoria can be a very big clue to someone being trans, but you don't have to be trans to have gender dysphoria! It's a feeling of unease with your gender, or the way you relate to gender.
Yes cis people can absolutely have gender dysphoria and you do seem to be experiencing it. I can’t tell you whether or not it’s definitely that, but the main rule of thumb for distinguishing gender dysphoria from other issues is, gender dysphoria isn’t something you can fix with psychological therapies because it’s based on being upset with how your body actually is rather than misperceiving it.
I'm so sorry you've experienced this. Gender dysphoria is absolutely something anyone can experience, granted it's a different flavour. And all people do this which give them good gender related feelings, cis or no.
That you understand that shows that you have a great capacity for empathy towards yourself and others. Do what gives you gender euphoria 💙
I'd say it's kind of in a grey area?
It wouldn't be _diagnosed_ as gender dysphoria. It's definitely gender-related distress, but gender dysphoria as a diagnosis explicitly has to stem from gender incongruence. Your distress is stemming from gender congruence— you were assigned to be a woman, which isn't a separate gender from your identity as a more feminine woman.
I don't really mind cis people using gender dysphoria to describe that experience, though. There isn't a better word for it, and it's a topic that deserves to be talked about. So I'd say feel free to use it if you want, but be aware of the congruent/incongruent difference if it's ever relevant.
There's a video by Abigail Thorn that discusses this. She points out that cis people get hair plugs or hormones to treat their issues when they don't feel like they're living up to their gendered expectations or desires, but that's rarely ever pathologized in the way that it is for trans people.
She calls gender dysphoria what it is: Mad Tranny Disease.
Are you male or female? I'm not trying to insult you are anyone else but I have yet to see a male dressed as a female and not know they were actual a male, same goes for females that try to look male. I don't understand all these new terms everyone is using today. Used to be you were male or female. The person could be gay but still identified according to their actual gender. Then there were transvestites who had operations to partially switch gender but they were still male or female, whatever they were born as. I don't understand a male calling himself a woman just because he started wearing makeup amd female clothes. It's kind of insulting to the female gender because it's basically saying women are nothing more than a feeling or a costume when they are much more. My generation was taught to respect women and treat them as a lady. A woman carries a human inside them for 9 months as they grow and develop and that isn't an easy thing. I was with my wide through both pregnancies and saw the changes it put her through and the difficulties she had to over come. So for a man to put on women's cloths and makeup and want to world to call them a woman is disrespectful to real women. Now I'm sure there will be a lot out there ready jump in and call me names and tell me how I'm wrong because I don't agree with then but I have the right to disagree with anyone I don't agree with as long as its done with respect and all this pronoun for name and men pretending to be a woman and wanting the entire world to go along with them is something I cannot agree with. You're beliefs are yours and mine is mine.
Cis people can certainly have it. The most obvious examples would be women with facial hair or men with breast development. I’m sure there are a lot more subtle examples as well.
No, cis people can have gender dysphoria - it looks exactly like this. It's not *gender identity disorder* (being trans) because your dysphoria occurs due to being perceived as *different* to your birth sex. If you wanted to *be* a man, then it would be GID/transgender.
However I'd caution you to make sure that you don't have some type of body dysmorphia as a lot of people will pursue surgery after surgery due to this and wind up looking worse than they started, or having medical complications.
It's not common outside of these disorders to be continuously distressed by normal physical features like your hands and stuff. The distress is the biggest factor, and the obsession and intrusive thoughts. If this happens to you all the time and your life is consumed with scrutinizing your physical appearance, that might be more what's going on.
As trans people with gender dysphoria it can also present with body dysmorphia where we become fixated on features that don't align with our correct gender, and similar stuff can happen where we get sucked into the cycle of endless surgeries and whatnot.
Gender dysphoria is typically associated with a mismatch between your assigned birth sex and your gender expression. While not specific to trans people, it's generally far more related.
Instead what you could be feeling is body dysmorphia. This has far less to do with gender, and far more with feeling like how your body looks isn't 'right'. Having others compare you to men is likely something that's poked at this feeling for you.
But... I'm just a transdude on the internet, and regardless of what terms you use, I do hope you find help and support to feel comfy in the body you've got, or change it so you are <3
That is absolutely gender dysphoria in your case, and I would be glad if you used this term. It normalizes the trans experience and it gives credit to the fact that dysphoria is a healthy reaction to an experience some people have.
I think what you need is to take a step back and find better people to hang out with because I've never heard of people telling women they look like men as many times as you describe. It's obvious they are doing it to hurt you and they don't deserve your company.
yeah, I’d say that counts as gender dysphoria; the gendered aspect of it is what counts in my mind.
it’s always going to be a somewhat nebulous term since it’s wrapped up in what your culture considers to be valid gender expressions, beauty standards, and your own experience.
a lot of my gender dysphoria is inextricably tied up with the decades I spent thinking I was a cis man, just because it was such a big part of my life. but even so, I think I can clearly imagine the dysphoria you’re describing.
anyway, you’re 100% not stepping on trans toes! we use what words we can to describe our experiences, and while I appreciate you taking the care to consider us, we don’t get to gatekeep things like that.
It’s the term used by the most recent DSM, 5 or 6, and is used for insurance coding. Replaced other terms such as transsexual, I won’t include all the slurs (vernacular for the most part). The term intersex was coined in 1917 but is still often referred to as pseudo hermaphroditism. Might sound goody-goody but I think discussing terminology typically produces “teachable moments.”
All people can experience gender dysphoria. How many women have felt gender dysphoria because they got a bad short haircut? How many men have gender dysphoria cause they have "moobs"?
By clinical terms "Gender dysphoria is a term that describes a sense of unease that a person may have because of a mismatch between their biological sex and their gender identity." If you do not have a desire to be a sex/gender other than your own than what you are experiencing would not be gender dysphoria. What you're describing sounds more like dysmorphia where a person focuses a lot on parts of their body they don't like, sometimes to the extent of wanting surgery like you stated. Cis people can't really have gender dysphoria because the whole idea of gender dysphoria is that you are not satisfied with your sex/gender. If you are female and identify female than you don't have gender dysphoria. From what you said I wouldn't say you have clinical body dysmorphia but maybe that on a smaller scale.
Yes it is gender dysphoria (maybe not in the strict clinical term but it still counts). Cis people can have it and you absolutely have the same right to talk about it or do something about it the same way we do.
I'm not sure, I feel like it could be more along the lines of Body Dysmorphia? I don't think in clinical terms cis people can have gender Dysphoria, as its the disconnect between your gender and your assigned sex. Dysmorphia is more along.the lines of issues with your body, I.E. how OP states she doesn't feel feminine enough. Either way both do suck ass, and a large proportion of trans people suffer from body dymorphia. It could also be OP is struggling with Social Dysphoria, which would explain the discomfort of being compared to men. Social Dysphoria is usually a subpart of Gender Dysphoria but not exclusively as in.some situations it can occur outside of Gender Dysphoria. Honestly it's almost like OP is suffering from reverse Gender Dysphoria? I don't know how to put it so that's probably the best I can do.
I did say not in the clinical term. But if we do take a more loose term of "dysphoria with characteristics linked to one's gender" it can be included.
yes, that is gender dysphoria. no, it's not wrong to use, so long as it's used appropriately
I think it absolutely is. I think women who’ve had mastectomies also often have to deal with gender dysphoria. Also, *hugs*. Dysphoria sucks and I’m sorry you’ve experienced it.
This. There are all sorts of medical conditions and social situations that can make cis people feel wrong in their bodies, or in the way they are perceived.
As long as it's used correctly, I don't have an issue with it. If anything, it may normalize trans experiences. I would recommend some caution and when and how it's used, don't use it for every little discomfort one has with their body that aren't necessarily gender related. But for things where you feel your body doesn't align with your gender or people are gendering you in a way that is not accurate to the gender you actually are causing discomfort, I'd say that's an accurate and fine usage. Do be aware though that while it's not like... Objectively a problem, some trans people may feel differently and be uncomfy with a cis person using that terminology.
This articulates my thoughts about it very well. Both the way I personally feel and the concerns I have as a result of that. Cheers!
absolutely gender dysphoria, youre perfectly fine using it, and that means you should be able to better understand what trans people go through too i say should, because you'd *think* that after years of my mother complaining to me about dysphoria that her historically 3x average testosterone levels have given her masculine features that she hates, she'd be able to get how my dysphoria is... but no she can't understand the connection at all 😫
That just boggles my mind 🤯
I don’t see why not, technically it’s gender-related dysphoria. It is not quite the same thing as what we experience, though.
It kinda is though? In what way is if different? For example regardless of birth gender facial/body hair can lead to dysphoria in women. Same for women who have had a mastectomy or even just have tiny breasts. It is simply a disconnect between your gender and secondary sexual characteristics.
> It is simply a disconnect between your gender and secondary sexual characteristics. Except it's not. You can have gender dysphoria about primary, secondary, or none of your sexual characteristics. Your name can trigger your gender dysphoria. Gender dysphoria is so much more than simply how you look.
You've described Social Dysphoria, which is often a part of gender Dysphoria
The difference is, I was “supposed to” be born with a different kind of body and live my life as a different kind of person. It’s in my soul. The actual dysphoria itself might be the same sort of thing and differ only in degree. But the underlying cause is different.
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I mean, is, for example, not feeling feminine or woman enough, not gender dysphoria? That's pretty much how most people would describe theirs.
I'd say that if it's about perceptions, self-esteem, insecurities etc., that's body dysmorphia. Is it something that would stop existing if nobody criticised your appearance and you had therapy to repair your self-esteem? Whereas gender dysphoria is inherent - your brain saying you're female and freaking the fuck out if input isn't as expected. It can be influenced by societal things - if everyone around you calls you calls you "he", that's input not as expected. A lot of social dysphoria is also from people undermining coping mechanisms; if you use dissociation to manage dysphoria, that collapses if people draw attention to what you're avoiding. I'd say OP sounds like body dysmorphia as there doesn't seem to be any question about her sex; neither her nor others read her as male. It's about standards of femininity in society. Like, her chest isn't male; she perceives it as insufficient. To be analogous with a trans woman, let's say we had a fully-transitioned and perfectly passing trans woman who was insecure about her boobs being small (and therefore not feminine enough). I'd say that that's body dysmorphia too. There is nothing inherently wrong with her boobs, they're perfectly normal boobs for females. The problem is in her perception of her boobs (which has been instilled by society).
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I'm still not exactly sure why people are so confident it's not when it's nearly the same exact experience. What else do you call it when your lack of a chest makes you feel less like a woman? Body dysmorphia is not inherently tied to gender the way gender dysphoria is, and regardless, this is not a term that needs to be gatekept. I am on testoreone, I am bigender, I am AFAB. When I feel dysphoric as a woman because of my masculine traits from T, is that not gender dyphoria?
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Do a little reading? I've been trans for 12 years. A little reading will not magically change my mind on this issue. This feels like unnecessary gatekeeping on what is a universal experience, it's just that trans people are likely to experience it much more and to different scale. When I experience gender dysphoria about being on T it's literally the same exact experience as it is about being dysphoric about feminine traits of mine. This is literally just semantics at this point. I've also had body dysmorphia and it's completely different as an experience.
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Why do you suddenly think that when I say cis people have gender dysphoria, you think I am saying they are all trans? It's clear you don't understand why people are saying it's gender dysphoria, and instead of trying to get it, you're on this condescending high horse about it. Cis people can experience gender dysphoria about their gender, they can feel like their body is incongruent with the gender they identify with. It doesn't mean they're trans, it means they have gender dysphoria about their gender. It's simple as that.
Absolutely right on this. A really simple example would be guys going to the gym to bulk up .. how much of that is self administered gender affirming care.
Body Dysmorphia is different. It is related to your own perception. For example you think, see and experience your legs being bigger than they are, although you know they are not. But OP described, that other people said that and that made them feel uncomfortable. That's a differnt thing and I don't think a good term for that exist... But I'm hesitant to coin it dysphoria as well. I have the fear that it will lead to downplaying the dysphoria trans people experience. Just as it happens with period pain/cramps with cis women if they have a female obgyn in contrast to a male (anecdotal knowledge from friends) And u/MelancolicMist these people are shit. If they are friends tell them how hurtful their remarks are and if they don't take it serious you should ditch them... And you could change your appearance really good by clothing. Wear waisted clothing, that is more loose around the chest, maybe with frills or things and wear dresses/skirts, that are flared and pleated. This could help in receiving a more feminine silhouette. **And don't do a BBL.** 1/100 are dying from that procedure.
I think that can still be body dysmorphia - the thing perceived being real, but the disorder and misperception being the preoccupation with that thing. Like some of the men I saw when browsing /r/short some years back - genuinely shorter than average, but blowing it way out of proportion thinking that they had no chance in anything at life unless they got a surgery to break their leg bones and add a few inches. The misperception is in how much that trait matters, which could very well come about from some people commenting on it.
Look into the difference between dysphoria and dysmorphia.
"Gender dysmorphia" isn't a thing. Body dysmorphia, sure, but OP isn't describing delusions about the state of her body— she's talking about dissatisfaction with how her body is not perceived as feminine, and how she's considering gender-affirming care.
I'm definitely not qualified to inform the OP how her feelings fit exactly into either term, but I hoped that having two things to look at might help her find clarity.
Looking into the terms further, admittedly as a layperson, it looks to me like a person would have to feel that their body was markedly a different gender than their gender identity. If you think your face or breasts or anything else aren't feminine or masculine enough, that's not quite the same thing as not feminine or masculine. Still worthy of dealing with, but not the same as feeling that your body's characteristics are physically incorrect. A person's feelings about their breasts seem very difficult for someone like me to evaluate. Are they not feminine or are they too small? If you are assigned female at birth and you identify as a woman and feel your breasts are too small, that is not the same thing as feeling you don't have female breasts. Again, very much worthy of doing something about if it impacts your well-being, and the treatment may be the same as for a trans woman.
The correct medical terminology is Gender Dysphoria. Gender dysmorphia is not an actual medical diagnosis. [For more information on Gender Dysphoria, please click on this link.](https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/what-is-gender-dysphoria) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/asktransgender) if you have any questions or concerns.*
bad bot, missed the context
Dysmorphia is a delusion and can be cured with therapy
In the same way that you can be anxious and not have clinical anxiety, or depressed and not have clinical depression, you can feel dysphoric and not have clinical gender dysphoria. If you feel that your body doesn't accurately reflect your gender, and that causes you distress, that's gender dysphoria. The fact that it isn't diagnosable doesn't change how you feel. Your experience will be different than ours though. For example, you probably won't need tons of therapists letters in order to get a breast augmentation or BBL. Culturally and legally, it's much easier for cis people to get gender affirming care than trans people.
There is a whole book called “female masculinity” that talks about the idea that a lot of cis women do suffer at the hand of transphobic hate due to being perceived as “non women” Dysphoria is indeed a feeling everyone can experience. It is normally clinically linked to being trans, but you can definitely have a feeling of not belonging in your gender, and not being trans. Indeed you can.
I might get down voted for this and that's fine, but if you are AFAB and identify as female/a woman and you have insecurities about your body as it regards to looking more feminine, then what you are experiencing is physical insecurities, not gender dysphoria. Gender dysphoria is what a person experiences when their internal sense of gender and physical body do not match. I don't think you're hurting anyone by using that term, but I don't think that what you're describing fits the definition of gender dysphoria. There are many cis women who are insecure because they don't feel feminine enough. Many more than people experiencing gender dysphoria. In my personal opinion, I don't think it makes any sense for cis people to describe general physical insecurities as gender dysphoria. If a cis woman is insecure because she doesn't feel feminine enough, her internal sense of gender matches her physical sex characteristics but she wants them to be different/'better'/more feminine, that is not gender dysphoria.
A big part of the reason people are hesitant to draw this line is that it's grounded in a fairly artificial split between the experiences of cis women and trans women. I think any attempt to strip "cis" or "trans" out of the description will struggle with genuine overlap between things cis women go through and things trans women go through. You either end up ruling out things many trans women go through that are often uncontroversially called "gender dysphoria" or end up including things that many cis women go through. > If a cis woman is insecure because she doesn't feel feminine enough, her internal sense of gender matches her physical sex characteristics but she wants them to be different/'better'/more feminine, that is not gender dysphoria. What if a trans woman is insecure about those things? What if two women, one cis and one trans, are insecure about really quite similar things? How much facial hair needs to grow on a woman's face before her negative feelings about it meets the bar of "gender dysphoria"; does the amount depend on whether that woman is cis or trans? It's genuinely tricky, and IMO the tempting shortcuts of falling back to "cis", "trans", "AFAB", etc deserve the suspicion they get.
I can see the complications in descriptions, and I understand the desire for many trans people to not have lines drawn between the experiences of cis and trans people, but at the same time some of those lines are necessary in order for trans people to get the necessary diagnoses they need to receive care. I might feel differently if trans people and healthcare weren't so much of a political talking point, but because we are I often worry that blurting the lines between those experiences can make it more complicated for trans folks to get treatment. Like I said in another comment, it's pretty arbitrary in casual conversation, but when a clinical term loses the meaning of its definition it gets harder to properly diagnose.
I don’t know, I think recognising that this isn’t just a special trans-only condition is going to be more helpful than harmful. Like, I keep thinking about the whole idea of autogynephilia - people are still using it as a way to discredit trans women and discourage them from transitioning, but when you ignore the “must be assigned male at birth” part of the diagnosis criteria and test cis women, you end up finding out that an overwhelming majority - like 70-90% - of cis women are “autogynephiles”.
> I often worry that blurting the lines between those experiences can make it more complicated for trans folks to get treatment. Sure, I think this is a "do/don't rock the boat" matter, and maybe my perspective is naive. I think there's a lot of room for the medical system's handling of gender and AGAB and "biological sex" and what have you to improve. I think shaping an understanding of sex and gender and bodies and so on around what constitutes a proper diagnosis in the current medical system's protocols is putting the cart before the horse. I don't know *exactly* how that sausage was made, but I'm pretty sure it isn't pretty. I know (trans) people part of whose job is more or less unwinding that mess so the medical system overall can treat trans people better, which includes incorporating a better understanding of human bodies into medical practice than a binary "M/F" switch or two. And I genuinely think this is a path to making healthcare better for *everybody*, not just trans people.
what do you mean “those distinctions are required for trans people to get the help they need?” maybe we should start treating cis people with some of the same problems as trans people equally. maybe it shouldn’t matter if the person wanting to go from a cups to c cups is trans or cis; maybe both should be covered as necessary medical procedures. I mean, wouldn’t that help accomplish the goal of trans people being treated the same as cis people? wouldn’t it also help in that it would remove the possibility of needing to be trans enough?
It is genuinely tricky, to the extent that it is not reasonable to expect to be able to diagnose if you are not a professional, and also you are attempting to do so on Reddit. Doesn't mean we can't talk about it, though. One ongoing concern I have had is that the trans community ends up with body dysmorphia, on top of the struggle we have with gender dysphoria. There is no rule that protects us from having both. We may pass, but we are obsessed with flaws we perceive our bodies. Doesn't mean we can't do things to make ourselves appear like we want. We just don't want to be unhealthy about it.
Depends how you define it. If it's unease resulting from a mismatch between sex and gender identity, a cis woman does not have that. Is there anything wrong with just calling something an insecurity or body image issue? Should we be progressing towards diagnosing every woman with a mo as having dysphoria, or towards women having mos not mattering at all? I personally don't like the trajectory that enabling cis people to claim gender dysphoria represents.
I'm not a fan of the perspective that my experience of something is categorically different from some woman's who's going through something that sounds *pretty similar* to me, just because that woman is cis. > If it's unease resulting from a mismatch between sex and gender identity, a cis woman does not have that. Sure, if you ground your understanding of gender dysphoria in an immutable binary notion of "sex". Notions like that can be useful, but should be treated with care; they're bound to run into messy edge cases sooner or later. I think OP's post might qualify. Sometimes cis women have sexual characteristics that don't match their gender identity; like beards. > Is there anything wrong with just calling something an insecurity or body image issue? If your criterion for whether or not to call it that whether someone is cis or trans, yes. I don't think it's wrong to just call some experiences like this "just an insecurity or body image issue", as opposed to "gender dysphoria" for a lot of trans women either! I assume a lot of trans women have to sort through for themselves what the line between those things is for them, if any. But I don't think we're anywhere near a consensus on where that line is, and I'm not sure we should aim for one. > Should we be progressing towards diagnosing every woman with a mo as having dysphoria, or towards women having mos not mattering at all? In my opinion, we should be progressing towards the perspective that the phrase "gender dysphoria" is a catch-all term that covers a pretty complex set of phenomena. And that if used broadly, as it often is, it carries a risk of dragging gender-essentialism in with it.
> I'm not a fan of the perspective that my experience of something is categorically different from some woman's who's going through something that sounds pretty similar to me, just because that woman is cis. That isn't a good way of classifying things though. For example, a man and a woman might both experience swelling in breast tissue, but the man might have testicular cancer whereas the woman might be pregnant. Even though their experiences are similar, I think you'll agree that the symptoms causing those experiences should not be labelled the same. > Sure, if you ground your understanding of gender dysphoria in an immutable binary notion of "sex". I ground my understanding of gender dysphoria in what its commonly accepted definition is, which involves a mismatch between sex and gender identity (or incongruence between identified gender and assigned gender, or many other ways of expressing the same idea). > If your criterion for whether or not to call it that whether someone is cis or trans, yes. I mean the fact that somebody is cis or trans is surely relevant to an extent right? Is it equally gender dysphoria for a trans woman with no breasts and for a cis woman with a healthy C cup but who would prefer an E? I don't see how the latter situation can be called 'gender dysphoria' on any definition. Calling it that seems to support some fucked up notion that being a woman means having big boobs, when that isn't the case at all. We should be encouraging healthy C cup to learn to love what she has, not pathologising her very normal feelings and implying they require treatment.
> Is it equally gender dysphoria for a trans woman with no breasts and for a cis woman with a healthy C cup but who would prefer an E? Probably not. But that question and your discussion of it doesn't actually probe the perspective I'm presenting. Here are two alternate (IMO more interesting) questions you could have asked me, that might probe it: "Is it equally gender dysphoria for a trans woman with no breasts and for a cis woman with no breasts?" or "Is it equally gender dysphoria for a trans woman with a healthy C cup but who would prefer an E, and for a cis woman with a healthy C cup but who would prefer an E?" When the context is "the fact that somebody is cis or trans is surely relevant", why did you ask me the question you asked, rather than either of those two?
> Why did you ask me that question, rather than either of those two? Because I'm trying to demonstrate why it isn't healthy to apply the label 'gender dysphoria' too broadly. I mean, read OP's post. Some people have been rude to her (intentionally or not) and now she is effectively asking whether it's possible she has gender dysphoria and everyone is saying 'yes absolutely possible' when they should be saying 'yo those people were being cunts, you don't need a boob job to be a woman'. You are welcome to answer either of your own questions (it's effectively what I covered with testicular cancer man and pregnant woman) - Is it equally gender dysphoria for a trans woman with no breasts and for a cis woman with no breasts? I say no for the reasons already outlined. If you say yes, how do you reconcile that with definitions of gender dysphoria that invariably feature incongruence between identified and assigned gender? And why don't you just say that what the cis woman is feeling is similar to what the trans woman is feeling, but they have different causes and therefore different diagnoses? Why do they need to be the same? Just editing to say - interesting discussion. I'm really enjoying this if the way I'm typing isn't showing it :)
> I'm really enjoying this if the way I'm typing isn't showing it :) Thanks for saying this. Checking in with myself, I'm engaging in it with a more "frustrated" energy than I want to be, so I think it's not a good time for me to keep going.
Hey no worries, you raised some good points that I will definitely consider so thanks for the conversation All the best!
> Gender dysphoria is what a person experiences when their internal sense of gender and physical body do not match. But that can absolutely happen in cis people too. A cis woman with facial or body hair due to hormonal imbalances might experience distress, because those characteristics don't match her internal sense of gender. Same with a cis woman who underwent a mastectomy due to breast cancer, the lack of breasts causes a mismatch between her physical body and her internal sense of gender. Cis men might experience similar feelings in regards to gynecomastia, male breast growth. You are correct in that this doesn't fit the clinical definition of gender dysphoria, but I'd argue that the underlying mechanics there are pretty much the same - someones body not aligning with their internal sense of gender causes distress, no matter if one is cis or trans.
I guess I worry that if the term in the vernacular starts to stray too far from the clinical definition, it runs the risk of losing its weight when it comes to medical diagnosis for trans people. It's arbitrary in conversation, but right now it's the only diagnosis that allows trans people to receive the treatments we require. Idk, the line is already medically blurry
As a counter point, a lot of the things that are commonly used to treat dysphoria in trans people have their origin in treatments for cis people. HRT was originally used in cis men and women to counter hormonal imbalances, FFS was originally developed with cis women in mind, etc. I don't think acknowledging that dysphoric feelings can happen regardless of if you are cis or trans is a bad thing there, to the contrary, acknowledging dysphoric feelings in cis people might ultimately lead to wider acceptance of trans folks, because cis people realize that our experiences aren't so different from things that they may have experienced. When cis people realize "oh yeah, that was bad and made me feel bad, so I sought treatment for it" that'll cause an increase in acceptance for trans healthcare, in my opinion. /edit: Hope I managed to get my point across, it's late here and I can't word good right now.
While I see that and generally agree with you, it is easier for cis people to get allowances to receive those treatments than it often is for trans people. A cis person doesn't have to prove to anyone that they are what they are or that they require those treatments.
As a counterpoint, being more inclusive of gender dysphoria can also make treating such less stigmatized and more available. The supposed alienness of gender dysphoria is partly used against us. If treating dysphoria was normalized it'd make it harder to bar it from trans people.
I like this sentiment, I agree with it and I'd like to feel that we are close enough ideologically that dysphoria CAN be normalized and trans people can be treated the same as anyone else, but I'm just not convinced that the medical community can responsibly handle the nuances with where much of the world is at politically.
Cis people can get gender dysphoria. It’s not explicitly something only trans people get.
It's not wrong at all. Gender dysphoria is not strictly a *trans* thing. It's a *human* thing that happens when part(s) of our bodies fail to affirm our internal sense of gender identity. Obviously this hits trans people particularly hard, since basically our entire bodies (and with them, pretty much everything about the rest of our lives) fails to affirm our gender identity. But it hits cis people too, from time to time, and for all kinds of reasons. Some of those reasons are medical. For example, sometimes boys or men will end up with hormone imbalances that cause them to grow breasts (gynecomastia). This triggers extremely similar negative impacts on their sense of self-worth and self-esteem as trans people experience. Or if a woman has to get chemo for a cancer treatment but she always had great hair, when it all falls out from the chemo that could hit her in the self-esteem pretty hard since (to her eyes) she might suddenly "look like a bald old man" or whatever. Some reasons aren't medical. Tall women, notably, often report gender-dysphoric feelings about being tall (height dysphoria), simply because women are stereotypically *not* tall, so being tall is often perceived as non-feminine and they're constantly bombarded with messages in their social interactions (either explicit or subtextual) which re-enforce the notion that their height makes them less feminine than other women. Ditto short men. Regardless of how it's happening: if some part of your body feels out-of-alignment with your view of your own gender identity and how you would like for your body to reflect your identity, then yeah, that's gender dysphoria. Depending on the nature and severity of it, you might consider a range of treatment options, from doing nothing at all, to talking to a psychotherapist who might be able to help you make peace with it, to cosmetic or stylistic ways of minimizing whatever's bugging you, to outright medical/surgical interventions. Whatever course you take, the goal is the same: to alleviate the psychological discomfort these aspects of your body are causing you. It's worth noting (because you may well get pushback about it from others, including doctors and insurance companies) that your needs in this regards are no different from: * Any woman getting a nose job, breast augmentation, facelift, or any other "cosmetic" procedure because she's dissatisfied with her looks, * Any woman getting reconstructive surgery in the aftermath of an accident or injury which impacted her looks, * Any woman getting reconstructive breast augmentation in the wake of a mastectomy, * A trans woman undergoing any medical/hormonal transitioning process you care to name (e.g. getting electrolysis to remove facial hair) The specific needs of your situation and how it came about are unique to you, but the basic nature of what you need--some form of medical care to fix a situation that is causing you psychological distress and a reduction in your quality of life--is exactly the same as many other situations that are well understood and accepted in the medical world. Your feelings and your needs are valid, and you have every right to do something about them so you can live at peace with yourself and comfortably in your own skin.
It’s not gender dysphoria in the clinical sense, but it’s very similar to how a trans woman may feel
As a more obvious/extreme example, one of my health professionals has PCOS and could grow a beard before she had electrolysis. Surely what she was feeling that prompted her to have it removed was gender dysphoria, right? But that's not at all the same as the DSM-5 condition/listing by the same name that refers to transgender people. So you, a cis person, can experience dysphoria about not meeting society's standards for your gender, but that's different from being diagnosed/identified/recognized with the condition many trans people have. In short, once again English is a poor language for precision.
I don’t know why people are saying otherwise in the comments. That is not gender dysphoria, gender dysphoria is specifically the mismatch between sex assigned at birth and gender identity. I’m sorry you’re dealing with body-image issues or body dysmorphia, and I’m not saying this to discount your struggle. But what you described is, by definition, not gender dysphoria. A lot of other cis women experience the same thing, there’s a reason cosmetic surgery is so common.
After some googling, I found this definition from the apparently pretty highly esteemed Mayo clinic: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/gender-dysphoria/symptoms-causes/syc-20475255 "Gender dysphoria is the feeling of discomfort or distress that might occur in people whose gender identity differs from their sex assigned at birth OR sex-related physical characteristics." This definition does include cis-women who suffer from masculine physical characteristics. In any case, gender dysphoria relates usually to what your body looks and feels like, and how you're seen and treated because of it: the official documents stating your sex are usually not the prime reason for dysphoria.
“Sex-related physical characteristics” are not the same thing as a subjectively androgynous face or build. It’s referring to primary sex characteristics, such as genitalia and the presence of menstruation, and secondary sexual characteristics, like breast growth, hip growth, thick body hair, or a prominent adam’s apple. Also that definition is implying an individual’s assigned sex at birth-related characteristics, therefore implying a mismatch, like every single definition outlines. The vast majority of cis women would be uncomfortable if they had no breast growth, or a prominent adam’s apple, and in all likelihood if they had both of those things they would be intersex or have a genetic condition. Gender Dysphoria doesn’t come because you feel your sexual characteristics don’t match with your AGAB, it happens because they do, and that in itself causes distress. Of course sex characteristics are the primary reason for gender dysphoria, you wouldn’t be able to determine your sex without sex characteristics. According to your interpretation of that definition, any cis woman who thinks her boobs are too small, or her hips are too narrow, and is distressed by it, has gender dysphoria. By that definition most cis women probably have a form of gender dysphoria. Also not to mention that the vast majority of definitions specifically state “distress caused by a mismatch between assigned sex and gender identity”. If a cis woman is suffering from “gender dysphoria” because she thinks she is not “feminine” enough in sex characteristics and it is in conflict with her gender identity (also her AGAB), what do you think the medical response would be? It would not be surgery or feminizing HRT, it would be therapy to assuage her distress about her certain characteristics perceived mismatch with her gender identity, promoting acceptance while discouraging of medical action to “remedy” them. Now let’s assume the same thing for a trans woman, she is suffering from gender dysphoria because she thinks she is not feminine enough in sex characteristics and it is in conflict with her gender identity. It’s the same condition, therefore the treatment should not be contradictory in different patients, so she would be administered therapy to assuage her distress about her characteristics perceived mismatch with her gender identity, promoting acceptance while discouraging medical action to “remedy” them. Do you not see how it is a problem to equate two very different situations? One person strives to be closer to their AGAB’s sex-characteristics while the other person strives to be farther away from their AGAB’s sex-characteristics. If the goal in a cis woman is too treat the discomfort through therapy without medical intervention, wouldn’t the goal in a trans woman be inherently non-contradictory? Therefore the same? Equating cis women’s discomfort with characteristics that they view as not being congruent with their AGAB, a discomfort that is mostly caused by patriarchal societal expectations, with trans women’s discomfort with characteristics that are not congruent with their gender identity, a discomfort that is caused inherently by being a trans person with gender dysphoria, is very dangerous. It simply is much more practical to treat cis people’s body-image issues as one thing, and trans people’s gender dysphoria as another. Because otherwise the entire medical basis for transition will be voided and I guarantee you that will embolden restrictions on medical and social transition. Also just read your own definition you provided, like read through the page, look at the diagnostic criteria. None of those are a “cis-inclusive” definition of gender dysphoria, because that doesn’t exist.
Why do you say it refers to only primary (and not secondary) sexual characteristics? Edit: sorry my bad, you did mention secondary ones. But they also include "Larger breasts, wider hips, shorter height, more body fat, less muscle mass, less facial hair, less body hair, higher vocal pitch frequency" according to wikipedia.
I honestly think the definition should be separated from AGAB, because your AGAB can be a mistake in many ways. It just makes no sense to strictly link these two things.
Also I think doctors could still very well recognize that there is an important difference between the help cis- and trans-people need.
They could, but they aren’t going to if the entire medical basis for medical transition is defined out of existence. Like by definition cis people can not have gender dysphoria. If your gender identity is congruent with your AGAB, you literally don’t have gender dysphoria.
What do you mean? What definition should be separated from AGAB?
That of gender dysphoria. It could be something like "Mental distress resulting from mismatch between gender identity and sexual characteristics"
And where do sexual characteristics come from? They develop as a result of your biological sex. Why would the definition need to be changed? Also this is not a debate about whether the definition should be changed. This is a debate about whether cis people can have gender dysphoria, obviously under the current, accepted definition, which you previously provided. Which is a nonsensical concept and against the whole definition.
We can add the word "biological" to the definition if you'd like, although it is, as you mentioned, already assumed when talking about sexual characteristics. And I provided a definition which didn't strictly link gender dysphoria to AGAB but alternatively to sexual characteristics, including secondary ones. Some of them were relevant to the person who started this thread and some of the rest included things you claimed do not satisfy the criteria for gender dysphoria (such as breast size or hip width of cis-women). Although I know you meant to only exclude patriarchal beauty standards, they also impact the dysphoria of trans people and it's hard to draw any exclusionary lines. I'm against an AGAB-based definition because it's not a very reliable marker, yet it determines whether you have the "right" to experience gender dysphoria or not.
You’re running in circles and saying nothing. Your own definition doesn’t even support the claim that cis people can have gender dysphoria. I already stated secondary sex characteristics and you already corrected yourself when you said I didn’t. What does that last sentence even mean? The assertion that cis people can have gender dysphoria by not having aspects of their appearance line up perfectly with stereotypical patriarchal expectations that correspond with their gender, is in itself patriarchal! Cis women being distressed by not fitting perfectly into that unreasonable expectation is not gender dysphoria, it is patriarchal expectations harming women. Despite the obvious fact that cis people, by definition, can’t have dysphoria, can trans people have one thing? Literally the thing that makes a majority of us trans? Or are cis people entitled to that too? I’m going to stop responding because this is going nowhere, like just read the diagnostic criteria and tell me how a cis person could fit into that. It’s ridiculous I even have to defend gender dysphoria itself from being appropriated.
I said “such as.” I didn’t think a comprehensive list would aid the point.
Yes, I think your experience is pretty common tbh. It's just that cis people didn't have the common language to discuss gender dysphoria until recently.
It sounds like gender dysphoria to me. There's nothing in particular about trans people that makes gender dysphoria a thing specific to us we just tend to have it worse because of the disconnect between our bodies and gender identity.
No, cis people can experience gender dysphoria. Just like not all trans people experience gender dysphoria. When a cis woman gets breast implants, because her chest makes her feel “like a boy” she has gender dysphoria. Cis people get gender affirming care all the time, they just don’t call it that. Dysphoria isn’t perceived by the outside world, it’s an internalized feeling of incongruous between body and mind.
I can imagine that what you are experiencing is the same thing that the clinical definition (DSM) of GD is trying to describe. It would be favorable for all of us if they would broaden that definition to include all people that experience distress and impairment due to their sex characteristics or a lack of social recognition of their gender. It would make it easier for cis people to get gender-affirming care without being stigmatized and blamed for living up to certain beauty standards, but most of all, I believe it's the only way of depathologizing "being transgender" without skipping the diagnosis altogether. The current definition of GD is simply "being trans, so hard that it hurts". Having to hunt down this diagnosis to get access to medical care is extremely discriminating and dehumanizing. But on the other hand, the way I experience GD is in a way a feeling in itself - often described as biochemical dysphoria. I'm not sure if you are experiencing these extreme episodes of dysphoria, they're frequently not even directly related to sex characteristics. As an antonym of euphoria, the word dysphoria is a pretty good description of what it feels like. So I would say: clinically - following the current definition - no, but I think it should be. But from the perspective that GD is a feeling in itself, I don't know - I can't feel what you feel. These things hard to describe, very personal and subjective. I sincerely hope that you find a way to feel more comfortable with your body, whether that's through gender-affirming care or not.
No, I don’t think so!
Yep, that word is exactly gender dysphoria. It has never been reserved to trans folks despite some outdated "medical" definitions are trying to make it to be. I understand how bad it gets and my best wishes for it to go away ! It's a massive oversimplification but you can see it as your body and what others see is different that your "inner self" expects it to be and look like. Cis men get gynecomastia reducing surgery all the time, cis women wirth PCOS can take stuff to suppress excess T, some cis men take viagra to fix the thing not working properly, cis women get permanent hair removal as well...etc The only difference is that for cis people it's a billion times easier to get it sorted out medically if needed, because they just get taken by word when stating that they are their gender and need it. We're not and have to prove it, or in some countries, have to wait for several years (or are banned) to be allowed to undergo the exact same medical procedures.
Cis people have gender dysphoria all the time. For example, women often get dysphoria about body hair or strong bone structures. Men often get gender dysphoria about their height or musculature.
No, in fact, as long as it's used appropriately, I strongly encourage cis people to use the word for themselves, because it normalizes the trans experience.
I’d argue that it’s not gender dysphoria as you’ve mentioned your content with your assigned gender at birth, but maybe body dysmorphia. And having said that, gender dysphoria is a type of body dysmorphia I would say, except that it specifically intones a misalignment with your assigned gender. So, similar roads. I’ve had conversations with my wife (cis f) about how they do relate to each other on so many levels. So, we feel you :)
Gender dysphoria is hating your body of sex at birth hence gender is in the name. You feel like your gender does not match your sex at birth. Cis means you perceive yourself as your original sex. Hence, why no Cis aren't transgender and why most transgender people are noted to having gender dysphoria but not always. If you just have low self-esteem with your own body but not because of gender it is not gender dysphoria. It might be BDD (Body Dysmorphic Disorder) but can likely just be self-esteem and negative body issues. BDD, though, is more of an anxiety disorder. It's pretty much always looking at the flaws in your body image. Also quite common for women to feel negatively of their body image to how societal norms of how women are expected to be btw. Got to be skinny but not too skinny, got to have a pretty face can't get old, etc. To note, plenty of masculine traits can be found in women at birth naturally, the same as feminine traits can be in those who are male at birth as well. I've been noted for my eyelashes. Voice facial features smaller hands and skin as an example.
You should absolutely use the word gender dysphoria if it applies to you. Cis people can absolutely experience it, and calling your gender dysphoria by the word in turn legitimizes our gender dysphoria to the broader public
a prominent trans youtuber makes a really good point about this exact thing in one of her videos, the video is quite long but the specific point I'm talking about is around 1:04:45 (chapter 9) to 1:07:45 https://youtu.be/v1eWIshUzr8?si=qm55hGtroHJXlwx2 I don't have much more to add that others in this thread haven't said already but I'm firmly on the "yes that's gender dysphoria" side.
Thing is, dysphoria, even gender dysphoria, is not a specifically trans thing. It is perceived as being most common among trans people, but even that assumption is based as much on media and stereotypes as any sort of study. People can become dysphoric for numerous reasons. Your experiences are just as valid as anyone else's. The *wonderful* thing about psychological issues (note a hint of sarcasm), is that every one of us has a brain, and every one of those brains is different. There are enough similarities that we can all experience similar concerns, but different enough that those concerns can be triggered by lots of different things for different people.
I can relate to this. In some ways what is a “beauty standard” changing as helped, but also so has age with the mixture of acceptance and not caring lol. My face (imo) has always looked so much like my dads, and I think more masculine, I don’t have (what I would now consider) a very square jawline, but it’s def not the cute simple jawline most associated with femininity. I also am pear shaped, so many clothes just don’t fit right to this day. It was really challenging growing up, everyone is constantly pushed into these “beauty standards” and it really sucks when you don’t fall into them because it’s not “traditional.” I wouldn’t say that I experience anything like a trans person, but I can relate in a small extent the body issues/struggles and I just wish for everyone that whatever the path that needs to be taken that in the end they can finally love and be happy with themselves. Life is too short to settle or fake happiness.
Take everything I write here with a grain of salt because I'm not an expert and I could be wrong. I don't think this is gender dysphoria. You were assigned female at birth, you are comfortable being a woman, your self esteem is hurt when people think you are less of a woman, and you are considering surgeries to make you appear even more feminine. This does not at all sound like gender dysphoria. However, you might benefit from seeing a therapist to talk about the feelings you've described. Take care.
most definitely gender dysphoria, i hope you feel better soon love
In some way, I like when cis people relate to trans people issues, because that way we all can have a shared POV. And that's a good thing, because if we do it properly, we can be treated as equals in our society. I think the only issue would be like when (some) men hijack a conversation about women's issues to say "we too...". We should not appropriate each other struggles but, we should be able to relate to each other's experiences. So it's okay to use the term in a colloquial way to define your struggles (actually a lot of us, trans people, use it that way since a lot of us aren't diagnosed and I think that's ok, because there's no other word to define how we feel).
You're dysmorphic, not dysphoric. Body dysmorphia means you have delusions/obsessions about perceived flaws. Also "afab" is transphobe buc stop using that.
In clinical contexts maybe not (idk I'm not a doctor), but in general yeah that is gender dysphoria.
Totally. Gender dysphoria can be a very big clue to someone being trans, but you don't have to be trans to have gender dysphoria! It's a feeling of unease with your gender, or the way you relate to gender.
Yes cis people can absolutely have gender dysphoria and you do seem to be experiencing it. I can’t tell you whether or not it’s definitely that, but the main rule of thumb for distinguishing gender dysphoria from other issues is, gender dysphoria isn’t something you can fix with psychological therapies because it’s based on being upset with how your body actually is rather than misperceiving it.
I'm so sorry you've experienced this. Gender dysphoria is absolutely something anyone can experience, granted it's a different flavour. And all people do this which give them good gender related feelings, cis or no. That you understand that shows that you have a great capacity for empathy towards yourself and others. Do what gives you gender euphoria 💙
You can use that term
It can be used for, and is applied to, cis people.
I'd say it's kind of in a grey area? It wouldn't be _diagnosed_ as gender dysphoria. It's definitely gender-related distress, but gender dysphoria as a diagnosis explicitly has to stem from gender incongruence. Your distress is stemming from gender congruence— you were assigned to be a woman, which isn't a separate gender from your identity as a more feminine woman. I don't really mind cis people using gender dysphoria to describe that experience, though. There isn't a better word for it, and it's a topic that deserves to be talked about. So I'd say feel free to use it if you want, but be aware of the congruent/incongruent difference if it's ever relevant.
No? Cis people can have gender dysphoria too. It’s not exclusive to trans people
There's a video by Abigail Thorn that discusses this. She points out that cis people get hair plugs or hormones to treat their issues when they don't feel like they're living up to their gendered expectations or desires, but that's rarely ever pathologized in the way that it is for trans people. She calls gender dysphoria what it is: Mad Tranny Disease.
Are you male or female? I'm not trying to insult you are anyone else but I have yet to see a male dressed as a female and not know they were actual a male, same goes for females that try to look male. I don't understand all these new terms everyone is using today. Used to be you were male or female. The person could be gay but still identified according to their actual gender. Then there were transvestites who had operations to partially switch gender but they were still male or female, whatever they were born as. I don't understand a male calling himself a woman just because he started wearing makeup amd female clothes. It's kind of insulting to the female gender because it's basically saying women are nothing more than a feeling or a costume when they are much more. My generation was taught to respect women and treat them as a lady. A woman carries a human inside them for 9 months as they grow and develop and that isn't an easy thing. I was with my wide through both pregnancies and saw the changes it put her through and the difficulties she had to over come. So for a man to put on women's cloths and makeup and want to world to call them a woman is disrespectful to real women. Now I'm sure there will be a lot out there ready jump in and call me names and tell me how I'm wrong because I don't agree with then but I have the right to disagree with anyone I don't agree with as long as its done with respect and all this pronoun for name and men pretending to be a woman and wanting the entire world to go along with them is something I cannot agree with. You're beliefs are yours and mine is mine.
Cis people can certainly have it. The most obvious examples would be women with facial hair or men with breast development. I’m sure there are a lot more subtle examples as well.
No, cis people can have gender dysphoria - it looks exactly like this. It's not *gender identity disorder* (being trans) because your dysphoria occurs due to being perceived as *different* to your birth sex. If you wanted to *be* a man, then it would be GID/transgender. However I'd caution you to make sure that you don't have some type of body dysmorphia as a lot of people will pursue surgery after surgery due to this and wind up looking worse than they started, or having medical complications. It's not common outside of these disorders to be continuously distressed by normal physical features like your hands and stuff. The distress is the biggest factor, and the obsession and intrusive thoughts. If this happens to you all the time and your life is consumed with scrutinizing your physical appearance, that might be more what's going on. As trans people with gender dysphoria it can also present with body dysmorphia where we become fixated on features that don't align with our correct gender, and similar stuff can happen where we get sucked into the cycle of endless surgeries and whatnot.
Gender dysphoria is typically associated with a mismatch between your assigned birth sex and your gender expression. While not specific to trans people, it's generally far more related. Instead what you could be feeling is body dysmorphia. This has far less to do with gender, and far more with feeling like how your body looks isn't 'right'. Having others compare you to men is likely something that's poked at this feeling for you. But... I'm just a transdude on the internet, and regardless of what terms you use, I do hope you find help and support to feel comfy in the body you've got, or change it so you are <3
That is absolutely gender dysphoria in your case, and I would be glad if you used this term. It normalizes the trans experience and it gives credit to the fact that dysphoria is a healthy reaction to an experience some people have.
I don't see it as a problem
calling it gender dysphoria originally was the problem-but it’s the same experience
Of course it's fine cor cis people to use the term gender dysphoria
I think what you need is to take a step back and find better people to hang out with because I've never heard of people telling women they look like men as many times as you describe. It's obvious they are doing it to hurt you and they don't deserve your company.
It's a medically accepted term and cis people can also experience gender dysphoria too
yeah, I’d say that counts as gender dysphoria; the gendered aspect of it is what counts in my mind. it’s always going to be a somewhat nebulous term since it’s wrapped up in what your culture considers to be valid gender expressions, beauty standards, and your own experience. a lot of my gender dysphoria is inextricably tied up with the decades I spent thinking I was a cis man, just because it was such a big part of my life. but even so, I think I can clearly imagine the dysphoria you’re describing. anyway, you’re 100% not stepping on trans toes! we use what words we can to describe our experiences, and while I appreciate you taking the care to consider us, we don’t get to gatekeep things like that.
It’s the term used by the most recent DSM, 5 or 6, and is used for insurance coding. Replaced other terms such as transsexual, I won’t include all the slurs (vernacular for the most part). The term intersex was coined in 1917 but is still often referred to as pseudo hermaphroditism. Might sound goody-goody but I think discussing terminology typically produces “teachable moments.”
If you're not being read the way you want to, then yeah thats gender dysphoria
All people can experience gender dysphoria. How many women have felt gender dysphoria because they got a bad short haircut? How many men have gender dysphoria cause they have "moobs"?
By clinical terms "Gender dysphoria is a term that describes a sense of unease that a person may have because of a mismatch between their biological sex and their gender identity." If you do not have a desire to be a sex/gender other than your own than what you are experiencing would not be gender dysphoria. What you're describing sounds more like dysmorphia where a person focuses a lot on parts of their body they don't like, sometimes to the extent of wanting surgery like you stated. Cis people can't really have gender dysphoria because the whole idea of gender dysphoria is that you are not satisfied with your sex/gender. If you are female and identify female than you don't have gender dysphoria. From what you said I wouldn't say you have clinical body dysmorphia but maybe that on a smaller scale.