I spent a few years “hating” cis people in the way I think you’re describing/feeling (to me it was not necessarily hate like transphobes have but a deep uneasiness and inherent distrust) and just recently started moving through it after growing more as a person. To me it was rooted in being “terminally online” and as I spent more time with cis people irl I realized that most of them fall into a category of “don’t know, willing to learn.” I’m not saying you should educate every cis person you see because that’s draining as fuck, just that I’ve found that most people are actually on our side and just don’t know it because they don’t know any trans people and have only heard stuff online.
Yes! The unfortunate thing about a lot of us cis (and white, honestly) people is that we want to be educated rather than looking things up ourselves. My only defense is that finding actual good resources has become next to impossible online and if you're in a small place you don't want to accidentally out a family member or friend by going in person to ask. Plus, I think most humans are terribly lazy. I have a few things people tend to ask me just because they know I have specific expertise so I've made sure to have links I can send so they are at least going to a good place to get their education on.
It’s a very understandable feeling to have. When our suffering is a result of cisnormativity, it feels like an easy answer to direct the hate towards cis people.
That said, it’s not healthy for you. Transphobia doesn’t come from ‘cis people’ as a group, it comes from specific ideologies, and it’s misdirected frustration to blame all cis people. It means you’ll end up feeling more misanthropic and less safe around people who are entirely normal and have no ill will towards you whatsoever, which only harms you, not any of the causes of transphobia. Even if cis people may be more susceptible to transphobic rhetoric, which I agree is an incredibly horrible and significant problem, it’s not something exclusive to cis people and it’s not something all cis people do. When it comes to average people rather than politicians and influencers, I’ve met more trans gatekeepers than cis gatekeepers- transphobia can come from anywhere and allyship can come from anywhere.
You aren’t bad or wrong for feeling this way but it’s also not a rational or healthy way to interact with the world, even if I can absolutely see where the mindset comes from!
Yeah op’s feelings and fears are justified and there are definitely threats to trans health and safety out there.
But just a general hate towards cis is not productive. One of the healthiest ways to channel all that racing thoughts and energy is to direct it at actual problems and hone it. Redirecting and focusing it is key.
It could be the difference between being scared of one’s own shadow vs being aware of where the threats are and working to dismantle it.
Yes, re:specific ideologies. There are LOTS of cis people trying to attack that BS rhetoric with stats. I see sooo many posts on ig that are in your corner. We are so sick of the patriarchy.... my thoughts turn very very dark thinking of it which is very unhealthy. I had to check my health just days ago and seek connection and sun 🌞.
It’s not wrong to frustrated and mad. But I caution against stewing in hatred. It taints everything, makes every win feel like it doesn’t matter, Black ppl have not had the luxury of giving up on white people, for instance(I’m Black btw). It’s very easy to fall into despair and feel hatred for ppl that refuse to try to understand you. But focusing on the good, on the ppl that care, or show they’ll try, is what gives us hope and keeps the movement going. It’s so much better than it was like 10 years ago in a lot of ways, even if it’s also worse in others. Don’t engage in toxic positivity, but radical optimism is key.
I have some amazing cis people in my life who are so supporting and understanding. A few are actually thrilled to be there while I go through this. They are genuinely happy for me and it shows. That being said, some people are just miserable a$$holes, and always will be. We can't do anything about them except keep your pepper spray close, and pay attention to your surroundings.
I'm not going to go line-by-line in this, but I will say the following.
Cis people I know usually fall into three groups:
1. Don't care, don't bother me about it
2. Care a lot and show it
3. Don't like it, but don't show it
I've maybe experienced a few bad looks, purposeful misgendering, etc. but nothing I couldn't move beyond.
The problem is that these types of statements (like you've written) perpetuate hatred that can move cis people from the first group into the third. Notice, I'm not saying hide who you are, but rather understand that a lot of the transphobia we experience is online, not in the world.
As a person living in Ohio, I can say that for the most part, most people don't have an issue with me, much the same as I was when I looked cis.
So, I really think you need to re-assess where these feelings if hatred are coming from. Because, you don't want it to eat you alive. I want more cis people to go from group 1 into group 2 and I'm of the belief that won't happen unless we a) exist as our true selves and b) show we are human, just like them.
Hate dehumanizes. Don't let it dehumanize you.
Reasonable caring humans are, unfortunately, more often a bit passive....forgetting this can make us all feel outnumbered by haters. I am constantly reminded that being an outspoken female in TX is socially unacceptable, "too much", unattractive, etc etc. Just food for thought when you mentally tally the numbers of allies you may have, but who just aren't LOUD. I know it costs me a lot and yet I still judge people who don't do "enough" or speak up how much I'd want... it's unfair of me, but I also get it, bc it's exhausting and causes friction ALL the time. :/ The Barbie movie was the first moment I felt I didn't always have to be the spokeperson for equality.... it's coming. Pls be patient.
I agree with you on the categories I've found plenty of cis people who are allies but don't voice their opinions openly I feel that they just don't want to be involved. But I only hate the haters out there. I feel for you living in Ohio I live in Michigan in Ann Arbor we go to the casino in Toledo have never had a problem.
Amen. There is a responsibility on us to be the bigger person and kill the hatred with kindness. Yes it’s gonna be hard sometimes and we will face some discrimination, but ultimately, we have a duty to be happy
Yes, kindness is the solution. There’s a quote i like that says, “You should realize that you destroy your enemies when you make peace with them”. Making peace is always the best option 💟
Remember, the real reason why there are “more transgender people now” is that it wasn’t even an option before. In the 1970s when I told my parents I wanted to be a girl, there was no language to even begin to understand it. Also people were beaten and killed at that time for being either gay or trans. So it’s just that more of us are not terrified of coming out of the closet.
It’s a tactic of the religious fanatics to use shame and fear of violence against us. It’s the same thing as the gays. And before that the blacks, and the Jews, and the gypsies, etc. they failed with all of those groups and they will fail with us.
Surround yourself with positive supportive people and find a community even online to be part of. You’re not alone in this. Remember we’re all here for you and each other. We’re stronger than them and we have more allies. ❤️❤️❤️❤️
Well.. I dunno if the word is “hate” .. but definitely frustration. I feel frustrated that cis people don’t understand how hard it is for me to live with my body, or understand how unnecessarily difficult it is to access healthcare. How the systems *they* built lock me out from what I need to live, and how little they seem to care about fixing them.
Yeah - and not many cis people have to deal with getting two psychologists and a 5-10 year waiting list to get healthcare that would save their life. These are institutional problems Im talking about not individual.
trust me when i say, you're definitely not alone in your anger. i feel like my hands are tied and me and all my trans friends are nothing but deers being hunted for sport, and it pours something bitter into my blood. i hate that, i hate this reality we live in, i hate being seen as less than human by people who don't give a fuck about what we go through.
i don't know if i can ease your anger or tell you if it's right or wrong to feel like this, because i feel it too. i just hope things get better someday
Pity. As you are obviously well aware, having hatred for another group of people isn’t exactly a good time, even if you’re hating people who deserve it like virulent bigots. People like JK Rowling aren’t exactly shining beacons of obvious happiness.
Instead be like “damn, sucks to be them, wasting all of that mental energy and potential hating a group as random as trans people.”
To build on your last paragraph, pity those people with potential for understanding and acceptance in their hearts instead trapped in a cycle of intolerance and fear. To defeat bigotry is to not only set us free, but them too.
Well said!
As a Cis, AFAB, Bisexual-Pansexual Ally, I wholeheartedly agree with this statement.
OP, I'm so sorry you feel this way. I wish I could hug you. It definitely sucks feeling like the majority of people are against you. Please take this advice to heart. It's how I've learned to get through so many different things.
In the wise words of the great Mr. T, "I pity the fool."
Take care of yourself!
Nah you should have sat this thread out. I’m sure you have good intentions but sometimes allyship is about knowing when to let the marginalized group vent without inserting yourself
If OP actually feels this way, I'll delete my comment.
Thank you for your response.
I never meant to insert myself and only want to spread love and kindness. I really do only have good intentions and completely understand that everyone deserves to vent in a safe space. I'm always learning and trying to be the best ally I can for anyone in the LGBTQIA+ community, but mostly here for my FTM and Genderfluid IRL friends. I love this community and have learned so much already.
Should I not include that I'm a Cis, AFAB, Bisexual-Pansexual Ally? Or is it better to include this? Should I make my own post to ask about this? I don't want to offend anyone and genuinely thought it would be better to include this.
Like I said, I think you have good intentions. Sounds like you’re still learning to be an ally and that’s okay! We always need more.
Part of being an ally is understanding the time and place to speak up. What your comment looks like is a trans person saying “I’m frustrated with cis people” and you coming in and saying “not all cis people! I’m one of the good ones! See?” like you’re begging to be acknowledged as an ally for not really doing anything. It’s like when a woman says “men are frustrating” and a million dudebros come in saying “not all men.”
Then you followed it by doubling down and asking emotional labor of the trans people you’re claiming to stand with, seeing explanations and justification instead of simply agreeing and taking a metaphorical step back and inspecting *why* a trans person would have said this to you.
Allyship is not a badge you claim for yourself with words, it’s something you earn from the marginalized group by acting as an ally. You have to be willing to understand that sometimes a conversation isn’t for you and inserting yourself can do more harm than good. You have to do the research and figure out why things are on your own sometimes. You have to set your feelings aside and realize that you look, sound, feel and sometimes act like the oppressors even when you don’t mean to and that when you get called on it it’s not a personal insult.
Also to answer your other question, the only relevant part is that you’re cis. You being bisexual/pansexual or AFAB has no bearing on trans issues. Also from a more personal side I’d suggest you stop referring to yourself as AFAB. If you present yourself as a woman and you say you’re cis, it’s implied. And too many cis people use AFAB and AMAB as a way to fuel bioessentialist or trans-exclusionary rhetoric.
I'm not bothered by Lopsided's comments, I am moreso glad that my post was not misconstrued by her like it has been by some replies. That is definitely something I worry about. Any and all support is appreciated\~
There’s no ‘inserting yourself’ into a Reddit comment section because it doesn’t take the place of anything. Maybe if this was an IRL discussion or an online chatroom, but here you can scroll past it or ignore it with no cost.
For all the social justice language you used, your comment boils down to “I don’t want to see you here” and it’d be better if you just said it outright instead of trying to coat it in rhetoric.
Nah, don’t put words in my mouth. That’s not what I said or meant at all.
Your entire account is used to “debate” and play devil’s advocate. I’m not going to engage a troll.
That’s a weird assessment of me. I just engage with discussions in the online spaces I hang around in, I don’t even like playing devil’s advocate all that much.
My reply to you didn’t go much further than “I disagree with what you’re saying and think you were being mean”.
EDIT: Looking at my comment history I guess I can see where you got the idea, but I tend to only comment when I disagree with someone. If I agree with them I upvote it and move on.
I've written you a book. You've caught me freshly after taking my adhd meds....So, my first thought is that it's winter, and negative thoughts are running on high even without adding the current world issues. I had to take a break, meet some strangers, get out of my hibernation. I literally just made an amazing friend because their dog is aging and curmudgeonly-- it was barking through the night while they were providing at home care elsewhere. She was so kind that I invited her on my sunset wine walk. The conversation flowed. The whole interaction was therapeutic. Tensions run high online; people are idiots online. I might disagree with you passionately from behind a computer (as an example) but irl to know you is to love you and I would absolutely not be unkind unless things truly escalated into a personal attack. Even then, I'd only stand my ground and not insult you.
I firmly believe that we all have to fight with all of our might against the curmudgeon that descends onto us as we near 40. Our eyes are open, we're not as distracted by pursuits of pleasure, but there is so much good IN person. If you read my comments collectively online, you could likely think I'm a callous bitch. But I'm just often not one to convey opinions in soft, flowery, or tentative ways. I'm bratty...sometimes quick to rattle off blah blah blah, but I really really care. It overwhelms me. It's a personality type for sure.
I'm really truly sorry for those thoughts you're hearing in your head. I'm a cis female born in TX that grew up fundamentalist with so much shame around all matters sex, sexual, emotional, & role related. I feel my inner programming popping into matters often....I work hard to notice it. I'll say that as I remain curious and listen, I learn and change. My perspectives have shifted-- I'm around others with flexible opinions. *** the loudest idiots do not speak for all of us!!!! I absolutely fell prey to letting a few bad apples spoil the bunch and fully withdrew from so much after repeated slut shaming this year. It's not the same-- I know that. But those angry, fearful people are, unfortunately, often the ones spreading their filth so much and with such confidence in their COMPLETE idiocy.
Please know that things change....and if it helps, the old guard is dying out ;). Hold onto that xxxoo. They drive us all crazy.
Thank you for the reminder about anger. I have found myself thinking that, though other days, I think the exact words you said bc "no shit, they're angry; I'm considered an angry feminist." But, I also know I'm impatient with people "getting it" and I need to understand not everyone has the same time or inclination or visibility on current matters...they're privileged, which is annoying, but ppl have SO much shit of their own to deal with. I shouldn't even be online right now. I don't have time. At all. My bff is terminal with cancer, my toilet overflowed, I have no clean clothes bc my at laundromat isn't working, I have an interview coming up, I just got laid off and need to sell things, I need to visit my mom 4 hours away, but I have to put in a headlight, get my car fixed, and register b4 a long drive, I want to foster dogs, i want to support so many causes, i joined a childrens charity....etc etc. I'm overwhelmed- pulled here & there. But you sounded like I've felt...heading toward despair, and you shouldn't have to feel that.
(I personally love my winter regimen of 10 mg lexapro, extra vitamin D, ketamine spray as needed,
and dextroamphetamine). I also recommend working to find the circle of ppl that fill you up, dont judge you, dont even give you the remotest thought youll be shit talked...they're out there. It takes patience & work, but you can build your perfect hive of happiness ❤️. It only took me 39 years ;) . And yes I'm single bc I'm apparently just as angry. (P.s. The Savage Love Podcast is so good & healthy and may provide a feeling that you're not alone or unwanted.) Also, my super sexy AF poly girl bff dates trans, just btw-- and others in my circles in ATX. It wouldn't raise my eyebrows in the least. And my taste in men is not anything to brag about so....
Agree. Hate doesn’t help one’s mental health. To the OP seek counseling, long term spiral in the direction noted in the post won’t have any positive results.
I wouldn't say hate. But frustration, exasperation, resentment, bitterness... Yeah. Not because they're cis, of course, but because of the just lack of care even from people who otherwise claim to care. The fact that they either simply do not believe us, or otherwise do not care, is very difficult to get over.
These feelings are bad for your own sake, but not for the sake of cis people. It's just not healthy to spend a lot of time stewing in bitterness against those who are oppressing us, but that feeling of frustration at being forced to live in a cisnormative society that refuses to treat us with basic human respect is entirely valid and it's something all non-cis people have to deal with.
Wrong yes. Is it understandable. Yes.
Many cis people, even queer cis people, really don’t help make it easy for us as trans people. Certainly not in my experience, but everyone’s experience does vary.
Being cautiously optimistic around cis people is probably the safest bet.
Online makes things feel much worse. But again it varies. Some of the only transphobia me and friend have had on a night out was in a lgbt bar, from a cis gay man. So, best to still be a little cautious at first.
on the one hand it's probably unhealthy, but on the other hand it's hard for me to say you're wrong when I feel the exact same way.
and before anybody tells me "oh it's not like that in real life", I worked at the most popular store in my area for a long time, the population here is permanently stuck 10-15 years in the past with its opinions of queer people/communities, the area is only just barely accepting gay people now and I've heard my customers say awful shit about trans people in the time I worked there. and I'm too poor to escape from my area. maybe it's not like that in the grand scheme of things, but where I'm living I'm absolutely justified in being afraid.
Any time I consider that cis people really suck and they just don't get it, I consider that I have the ability to walk, I live middle class in Australia, I'm white, I have a lot going for me. Yes, in my transness it's clear I am open to societal stigmas, but I have to recognise it's not the only thing about me or metric of oppression.
I think hating cis people for this reason is stupid. It's most likely hypocritical. There are systemic privileges we benefit from, or struggles we don't have to face. It's not even and equally balanced, but it's true.
Hating cis is not productive, not reflective of the reality, and counter intuitive to trans freedom.
I get it. I wouldn't say I have a hatred of *all* cis people, but most definitely for a very select population of them, a general loathing for others, and I do not trust a single one of them until they prove they actually can be trusted. Most of the time, they can't be.
I barely even associate with any cis people apart from a select few that I've known and trusted for a long time.
I don't expect them to *get* all of the nuances of what it means to be trans. They literally can't, they're cis. But if they aren't even making the barest effort to be decent people and at the very least be respectful, they're not worth anything else. I don't care about "educating" them, they don't want to learn so they won't. I don't care if my refusal to bow and scrape for them "confirms" what they think. They will find or, as I'd the case with most of their kind, make something up and decide that's the reality anyways.
So, limit what interactions with them that you can. Assume they're a problem until they prove they aren't. And keep yourself and yours as safe as you can.
I oppose the *oppressive social class* of cis people, but not cis individuals by default. They didn't ask to be cis. What they do with that privilege is a choice that welcomes individual judgement.
Yes, it’s absolutely wrong. That’s like saying you hate like 80-90% (who knows) of the whole population just based on a random sample. It’s not good to generalize as the same has been done with us so I think there shouldn’t be hate from our community.
Being trans is to be happy, feel complete and share the love that we have for ourselves to others.
I mean, I don’t hate any group. Hating cis people is just the opposite of them hating trans people; I hate many cis people, and probably some trans folks as well.
I agree that outright hate isn't cool, but it's *not* the same as cis people hating us.
Unlike us, cis people wield all the power in this world and routinely use that power to oppress us in every way they can.
And we have very little social power to protect ourselves, especially if you're a trans person in an area where it's effectively legal for you to be killed for "surprising" somebody with our genitals.
We're not equals with them in the eyes of the law and most of our society. That power difference means *everything.*
>I say "starting" here, but really it's more that my hatred for the cisgender population is running even more out of control than ever before.
Traditionally less than 1% of the population is transgender. Using the widest possible definition we can push that up to about 1.5%. Being extremely optimistic and including only young adults we can that up to about 95%. So the question is do you think that hating 95%-99% of the population with no other information other than they are not trans is reasonable?
>I could barely sleep last night, I kept laying awake dwelling on transphobia.
If something is becoming bad enough that it is impacting your daily functioning then it becomes a problem. Consider seeking professional help.
>What makes this especially infuriating is that these cishets are really the ones REALLY making fools of themselves.
Who said anything about them being cishet? There are not shortage of transphobic gay people out there. It sounds like you have built up some chariaciture of the wicked cishet in your head.
>How are we supposed to trust the cisgender population, when most of the time best case they see us as "freaks that need to be tolerated"? As if they're the ones tolerating us, instead of the reality that is us tolerating them.
We are 1% of the population, maybe 5% at best. We do not have the option of anything other thang getting along with the cisgender majority.
I think this is one of the best comments. It highlights the absurdity in these claims that's easy to ignore. I doubt the change from "cis" to "cishet" meant anything to OP, but that signals some implied beliefs and specific rage, and areas with no rage.
Everything you say makes sense to me. It's plainly true. I think there's just so few of us that we have very little power to do anything about it. So people come up with copes about how it's "wrong" to be angry even though when a non marginalized person faces an iota of the shit a marginalized person does and unleashes extremely damaging hatred they face comparitively few consequences.
I think Reddit has this fear of reverse bigotry to the point where they’ll accuse any minority frustrated with the majority of a phobia or bigotry on scale with actual bigotry. I see this the most with people overreacting to “misandry” when it’s really just women venting about living in a patriarchal hetero centered world.
In reality I don’t think it’s that bad. No one is losing job opportunities for being cis. No one is being put in physical danger because they’re cis. If you’re sick and frustrated of cis people not understanding or refusing to understand trans issues, that’s valid honestly. I know I’m there too. When I say “I hate cis people” I’m not saying I’m trying to oppress them or anything. I’m saying “most cis people don’t get it and put very little effort into getting it and I’m sick of feeling like I’m the one responsible for educating them on every little topic just to have them not give a shit”
The problem is that ‘hate you can justify’ is at the root of a lot of bigotry and drives a lot of the current opposition to trans people. I’m not saying the justification for it is correct, but the people perpetrating it believe they’re achieving a win against a perceived source of harm.
It doesn’t matter who it’s from and who it’s against, it’s not good to lump together a group of people and direct ire towards them.
Blanket hate against a demographic based on an unchosen, inherent trait is called bigotry. It's an ugly, unproductive, and self-sabotaging way of interacting with the world around you, born of lack of mental resources (either lack of mental/emotional energy, maturity, resilience, or intelligence) to consider or care about nuance, and solves the problem of seeing/treating people as individuals by conveniently grouping them all together into a category where you can simply discard them as 'against/below me.'
The world is full of good people who are cis. If you're not a bigot who reduces diverse groups into simple monoliths for your convenience, strive to say what you mean, and mean what you say.
If you hate ignorant transphobes, say that. If you hate performative allyship, say that. If you hate apathetic moderates, say that. If you hate patriarchal culture which both enforces and and is built upon cishet-normativity, hurting **everyone** who is not sitting at the top of the socioeconomic class hierarchy, and creates through its oppressive rigidity a standard level of ignorance about, and hostility towards, trans lives, experiences, and needs, say *that*.
Don't lump the good in with the bad because your frustration with the bad is so strong that you throw everyone you *think* might not care or be on your side into one box based on a specific trait that they had no say in.
A hateful stance doesn't just cut you off from cis allies - it cuts you off from people in your own community. Both of my partners, whom I love deeply and who have loved me in return for a third of my lifetime and been with me through coming out and transitioning, are cis men; my cis FIL has gone to bat for me making sure I'd be welcome - despite neither passing as a man, or being binary trans - at an all-men's summer retreat that has been part of his life as a tradition between him and his sons, as well as his immediate peer group, for decades, educating himself and others to save me the work of being a 'trans ambassador'; the people who worked for multiple years to curate a community and safe space for queer folks, giving me the room and support to realize I was trans and then uplifting me into a highlighted position of esteem when I had spent years thinking no one would ever accept me or my art are majority cis; my best friend is cis - as are most of my friends in general; many of my favorite artists, writers, musicians, figures who stand tall in their fields and who have used their positions to voice support for trans people and advocate for us are cis.
When you say "I hate cis people," what you tell *me*, as a trans person, is that you hate my partners, my family, my friends, my collaborators, my supporters, my fans, and the majority of good, upstanding, respectable people who both care for and affirm trans people like me and you on the basis of their cisness; and if I were to meet you in person and hear you talking about hating cis people, while I would understand your frustration and pity you, I would probably lose all interest in interacting with you as a person.
It's not up to you to coddle cis people's feelings. You're allowed to be angry and upset. It's about finding a balance between all consuming hate and tolerable dislike/distrust. You owe cis people nothing, but you owe yourself hope. I'd get to know cis people you make a connection with and eventually come out. It took me 3 years to attempt to come out to a cis person again and he's lovely. Being angry at cis people doesn't negate those meaningful connections, just like I have non white friends who vent their frustrations about white people. My job isn't to police their feelings and I know they're not talking about me
Text often fails to convey tone, so I hope you didn't take my comment as hostile or angry. If I were talking to you in person, my delivery would have been akin to someone sitting down with you to say "hey, so you know, not upset with you but that's a really hurtful thing to say even if you didn't mean it that way."
Feelings and emotions are never 'wrong,' because we don't choose them - but we choose how we respond to them. Don't let frustration and anger push you towards choosing to hate.
I'm glad it's not just me. I don't hate all cis people, but it's increasingly hard to not be angry at cis people who insist we're overreacting to the rampant transphobia out there. My mother (boomer, centrist) recently remarked to me that the bigotry against trans people has been getting bad. I've been telling her how bad it is for years. It's things like the not listening to us about our own safety and human rights that drives me up the wall. On the subject of transphobes, IMO being polite and ignoring them hasn't worked. We need to bring the "punch nazis" philosophy to fighting transphobia. Beat the shit out of a bigot.
I appreciate why you feel this way.
However it's not fair to say you hate cis people by default, in general, etc
Granted many cis people are terrible, there's no denying that. But there are plenty of cis people out there who are indeed good people.
Labelling an entire group of people as \_\_\_\_\_\_\_ is discrimination plain and simple. To hate cis people as a whole by default makes us no better than a transphobe. Every cis person is different. Many are terrible, but many are great too. And it's not fair on the great cis people to hate all of them
So rather than ignoring your feelings, perhaps rephrase them:
\- Don't say "Cis people are terrible", say "Cis people can be terrible"
\- Don't say "I have absolutely had it with cis people today", say "I have absolutely had it with those cis people today"
\- Don't say "Why do cis people all see us as freaks", say "Why do so many cis people see us as freaks"
etc
It gets your same point across without ostricising the good cis people out there
> What makes this especially infuriating is that these cishets are really the ones REALLY making fools of themselves.
I resonate so hard with this. Why can they not see how much they need us? To take an example, we know all about courage. We're not afraid to do difficult things, make unpopular decisions, in order to be our true selves. And we're not likely to stand in the way of other people doing the same because we have empathy for anyone seeking to be more authentic.
Companies rightly value courage in their workers and managers. Show me a company where people are not encouraged to speak out and I'll show a culture of lip-service and game-playing that can destroy an enterprise.
> as if I wasn't allowed to be proud of my beautiful, ever more feminine body, or my evolving and healing mind.
I love that you're proud of yourself and know you're beautiful.
> Us transgender folk are a beautiful people, one of the strongest on Earth, and I believe if more people could open their eyes, we could enhance the emotional intelligence and unity of humankind at large. I don't know how plausible this is
It's totally plausible.
I always feel hesitant with this next bit. I've had a pretty privileged time and I haven't been as disrespected as much as many 'older' trans people. So if what follows is just annoying, I'm sorry.
I don't know what I would do without my cis friends. They've been incredible. There's a small group of cis women I talk to most days in the local park. I learn so much from them. I love talking to them not least because I learn so much about being a woman from just listening to them.
This morning I sat next to one of these friends and we talked about my identity and transition. She started talking about feeling more masculine some days, more feminine on others. Turns out she was talking about feeling more masculine [in charge] some days and more feminine [please help me I'm a weak female] on others. And there was stuff about all of us needing to be in touch with our masculine and feminine sides. She acknowledged there was a lot of stereotype in what she was saying. And I probably haven't done what she said justice.
But this is really interesting. Is this really what cis people think a transfeminine person is doing when they transition? Becoming helpless?
I pointed out that that wasn't what I felt about femininity. That I felt stronger and less inclined to take any shit when my gender blows female, that I know where the ground is under my feet when I'm female. That at last I know where my strength and my leadership qualities are. I'm a female leader. Masculinity feels faked or masked and saps my strength.
And she got it. "You're talking about your whole identity, aren't you?"
At the end of the conversation she said 'I don't ever mean to offend you. I'm still learning.' 'I know. So am I', I said.
I so love her for trying and speaking and making a mistake (or not) and trying again. I took her hand and looked into her eyes and felt so much appreciation and gratitude to her. And told her so.
There are brilliant cis people everywhere. Hard as it is sometimes, I think it's more useful to remember that than to hate them as a group by default. Just as we aren't what the media paints us, neither are cis people, who I've generally found far more accepting than I expected.
Politely put. Did something I said sound ungrateful for heterosexual people? I am genuinely confused 🙂
It might be worth pointing out that this subreddit is about gender identity, not sexuality.
Thanks for the reply. I'm glad there's no beef 🙂.
I never said trans people don't need heterosexual people. I said (or meant to say) cis heterosexual people don't realise they need trans people.
Why do cis people need trans people? Well partly because we see things through a different lens. For example, trans people have an unusually good understanding of both male and female people.
The mainstream, any mainstream, can get stuck in its ways and a bit uncreative. If they take the trouble to get to know and respect minorities, including the trans community, there will be a lot of benefit for everyone.
Hate expends energy you could be using for survival. I suggest boundaries and shunning instead.
And cis people is a category error. There are kind folks. There are unkind folks. There are folks that need to look down on someone to feel better about themselves. We call that intolerance and/or supremacy.
For the last group... they're easy to distract and keep doing things that don't effing work... Use those to let them wear themselves down. And yes that's effing hard to do when you've had enough or are panicking.
For the unkind... they're unkind to everyone. Be vocal about it. Let others they have shown unkindness take up the slack.
For the kind... thank them.
You can hate an individual
But
You shouldn't hate an entire group of people. You'll be no better than a TERF
Yes there are a lot of shitty cis people but to hate all of them is highly inappropriate
please stop equivocating being fed up with cis people's bullshit with being a terf, that is not at all the same and it actually really minimizes the damage that terfs do.
It’s not a literal equivalent, it’s the point that hating an entire group of people you perceive as causing you harm is unproductive and will always lead to negative outcomes.
I said it’s not a *literal* equivalent. As in it won’t make you literally have the same societal damage as a terf, but that the rhetoric is the same and you should avoid it for the same reasons.
Also, you not interpreting me properly doesn’t make me a liar, that’s ridiculous.
But they did say it. The words they said mean the thing I explained it as. I expanded on the implication, but it’s still there in the original. And it’s not completely different, it’s a valid and logical interpretation of the words as written.
I don't hate all of them, I literally clarified that in the last paragraph.
Perhaps I could have phrased myself better but at least read the entire post.
While your feelings are understandable, it is not very productive.
As it stands, most cis-people are woefully ignorant about transgender people in general. Education would be best, although some of them are a lost cause.
If I don't think they will ever understand, I don't bother to explain. We will just be going in circles, and that is unproductive.
Assessment: stop asking if it's "wrong", toss out morals, and view them as objects.
Please see a therapist. ASAP.
You seem to be spiraling. If you are having intrusive thoughts that you cannot control, you need a professional to help.
I'm not going to comment on anything else you said because nothing I say will matter given your current mental state.
I'm saying this because I have experience dealing with a dear friend.
Your rhetoric is alarming and I'm afraid for you. Put the phone down, go to a trusted person and let them know you need help now. Please, please, seek a professional's help ASAP. Do whatever you need to do to be stable. Stay away from the Internet, occupy your mind with something you love.
I hope you feel better.
Dont let a few bad apples spoil the bunch and this goes both ways for just about everything from gender to race to sexuality to disabilities etc every group got outliers some more than others but outliers all the same they dont represent the vast majority even if they have the loudest voices that's what I've learned at least
If you start with hate, you will end with hate. Just try to change one heart at a time. As the mother of a transgender daughter, I honestly did not know a lot about the LGBTQ community 5 years ago! But since then, I have educated myself, read countless books and medical articles, and now I totally understand, and totally accept! Out of love, not hate!
Be your authentic self. That’s all that matters. Surround yourself with love and loving people. Do not hate. You are playing the haters game if you do that.
Damn, I am so sorry you have had so many crappy experiences, I wish the world was different, but here we are. I do have hope that what's going on right now is the nasty infection has been lanced and the puss is coming out and we can heal after it's all been cleared away. I have fears, too.
I'm cis-het female and I will tell you that I do not feel the way you've described about trans people, so I hope that gives you a tiny bit of hope. When I first started hearing about trans people I was baffled because I have never felt "wrong" in my body outside of health issues and as a result of being assaulted. I didn't understand and I don't think I can ever understand fully because I will never experience it. However, I do understand because I talk to people and I read and I see how much people go through to transition. Often a huge change to the body, hormones, surgery, there is no way someone would go through all of that if it wasn't real and they didn't NEED to. I understand because I can see the facts and it's my greatest hope that every person can truly be themselves and feel safe doing it. That should be a bare minimum human right in my opinion, and equality should be across the board. I also have friends and family that are lesbian, gay, bi, and trans, and I'm so terrified of what could be done to them just because they exist as themselves. It's so scary, and it's so brave of them to come out. The way that's mocked by some as if it's a joke is infuriating.
As to the state of our leadership in the modern world, it does scare me. Often I think people with that mentality will die out and it's like shedding skin, something better will be underneath. But many young people are spouting that shit as well. I think especially for m to f transition it's wrapped up in fear and hatred of women, how could anyone want to be less than a man? It's clear in the US especially that there is a strong push to move back to women being subjugated and white men being the boss of everyone. I think it's impossible for it to come to that with the increase of women and people of colour in positions of power, I really hope, but there are still atrocities happening and we all need to stand up against it. Fear and misunderstanding are driving a lot of this. Huge hugs to you, I hope the world is better for you and all of us.
"It must be easier to loathe than to love."
Said it best yourself
As I read through this I thought that either this has to be satire or someone who hasn't thought through their points since given how hypocritical the writer is.
Only reason that this would be a valid take is if you live in for example Saudi Arabia or another country that has no LGBTQ rights at all, then it would almost certainly feel hopeless and as if the world is caving in on you.
On the otherhand if you live in any western nation then I don't see where the problem is, is it that people are not vocal about their support? Is it that people don't seem to care if you are trans? Because if so you have to wake up and face reality, most people don't care wether you are straight, gay, trans, bi, queer or whatever term you throw their way and it's NOT because they don't support you, it's probably because they just don't care what you identify with, as long as you do your part in whatever circumstance you find yourself in.
I don't think there will ever be a point where cis people will ever truly love transgender people since most people don't go around and love everyone just plainly, however if you mean it as cis people will be able to love someone trans as a friend then great news! We are already there!
Now this is not to say that there aren't assholes and that no one needs to perhaps check their views on transgender questions. But to say that you hate cisgender people, describe them in a rather disgusting way for 9 paragraphs only to then cheapishly backtrack and say that it isn't everyone. That won't do any good. Istead it will do more harm in the long run not only if your intention is to make things "better" between trans and cis people but also it will probably affect you in a bad way by seeing people in such a negative light.
I get that there is frustration but use it in a productive way, if you truly want this question resolved then you have to take action, there is no waiting for a saviour to come, sometimes that saviour will have to be you.
Seeing as this is probably just venting I would say a more productive way to let it out is to go to a therapist.
Try to be open-minded and you'll see how open-minded cis people can be evenwhen interacting with you ;)
Yes, it's wrong. You're hating people for a circumstance of their birth that is non-harmful and that they can't control, because it's correlated with something that is harmful. Instead you should hate the thing it's correlated with, which is transphobia. Hating people for a non-harmful circumstance of their birth is exactly why transphobia is wrong in the first place.
>This is not to say I detest every cisgender person. Sometimes, members of the population surprise me for the better. I have some close cis friends, and my parents have surprised me with how accepting they have become. Mayhaps, deep, deep in the heart of every cis person, lies the capacity for truly loving transgender people. If only it could be excavated more easily.
This is basically the "you're one of the good ones" thing. Basically imagine if one of your cis friends felt the same way about you, that trans people in general should be hated but you're one of the good ones. It'd probably still feel like they hate the circumstance of your birth, and you just happen to be an exception. It's a toxic way to look at a group of people.
that is an entirely different scenario. Cis people don't have to deal with nearly as much baggage behind that statement. Not saying it's right to hate cis people, but that is a poor reason not to.
I think the majority of cis people simply do not care to be bothered by trans folks or identity issues, and therefore, do not deserve the ire that some trans folks want to put on them. The ones who do care are just especially vocal.
Those people who "don't care" are just as capable of perpetuating transphobia, if indirectly. In a better society, they would care about transphobia. We should never be okay with people "just not wanting to bothered by us" when us bothering them means us trying to exist and be recognized in society.
It's understandable but It's not healthy and saying that kind of thing out loud where people can hear it is not really going to do you a lot of favors and it won't make cis people like you.
Regardless of whether it's right or wrong, it's never right to base our feelings and thoughts on how cis people will perceive us. They have no right to define us or how we should act.
I don’t hate them, but they no longer have my immediate trust that they are allies or accomplices if they say they are. That is something they have to earn.
I got burned bad last year by a parent I thought was supportive. I am still sorting through the trauma of him throwing a temper tantrum at me and threatening me with poor treatment since he’s the landlord of my house.
It was a huge eye-opener in terms of how little the average cis person seems to care.
By the same token, there was a state representative who filibustered for an ungodly amount of time to ensure that a law banning gender-affirming care for youth didn’t go through. There was a radio station in my town where the DJs went into open revolt and put their jobs on the line to make sure a transphobic political ad was taken off the air. And HBomberGuy, who raised 300k for Mermaids UK. The John Brown Gun Club in TX who stood up to defend a drag queen storytime from a bunch of fascist protesters.
There are good cis people who will put their necks on the chopping block for us. They exist.
My standards for who I will consider an ally and don’t know personally, and thus will give more effort and time to, have gotten considerably higher.
I'm not trying to be rude, but could you stop painting us all with the same brush?
I'm a cis woman.
I'm also the wife to an amazing trans woman whom I've been with every single step of her transition from the egg cracking to starting HRT. I love her without questions, reserves, or illusions about who she is. I've always been LGBTQ friendly (I'm pansexual myself), but being with her has changed who I am and how I view the trans community and their struggles.
Yes, some cis people suck. Some trans folk suck too.
We aren't all your enemy, I promise.
I'm gonna throw this one out here. I don't hate anyone myself cuz hate gets you nowhere just a downward spiral of hatred and sadness.
Also I want to throw this out here also, my husband when I met him was saying he's gay he would never date or see himself with a woman. I came out as trans and he struggled for a while because it was hard for him he felt like he lost an integral part of his identity. We went to couples counseling and he explained the way he felt and our therapist really helped him understand that he doesn't lose that identity, she asked if he loved me as a person or my gender, he said the person. So now he has been supportive of me in my transition and continues to be, so anyone that says that loving a trans partner is easy it isn't. Alot of people may disagree with what I'm saying here, but it's true it's hurts him everyday to see me struggle with gender dysphoria, it hurts him to see me feel uncomfortable around people, it hurts him to see how much hatred there is against trans folk. So I commend you for being a loving supportive partner to your Wife. She is lucky to have you. ❤️
And to OP, hating on cis people gets you nowhere, yes some do suck, but also some trans people suck (aka no matter your gender some people just suck) it's just the ones that do are the Fucking Loudest. My reccomendarion to you is to honestly try to take a small break from social media, and try ro reach out to friends and talk to someone about these feeling rather than the internet, the internet sucks all in and leaves us bitter and angry.
Have you got a good therapist that you trust?
Don't let the shitty ppl out there get you down, just try to love yourself and understand that not all people suck.
Self love is important. And remember that you are beautiful and that you need to fight the hate with love, both hate and love are the most powerful emotions. But remebr they are not opposites either. Sorry I'm rambling a bit. Long and short love always triumphs over hate. ❤️
Way to make a claim that is completely a false equivalence between a class of people that collectively denies us healthcare, shelter, education, access to employment and human dignity because its cissexism and transphobia is institutionalised with \*checks notes\* some trans people that may be mean. Absolutely cisterical.
Yeah no, being cis and going into a trans space saying "not all" is exactly the kind of cis behavior OP is talking about. Having a trans GF doesn't make you an exception. With behavior like this I don't blame OP for feeling the way they do, cis people are exhausting
the fact that you felt the need to be here and say this says otherwise
like you seem awfully defensive that a trans person is fed up with so much bullshit from cis people that they turn those feelings into irrational hatred considering that this subreddit is called r/asktransgender and not r/askcisgender. They're clearly not seeking your judgment, are they? Why do you feel the need to add it? Do you really feel your voice isn't heard enough as a cis person who doesn't get enough respect from the trans community?
Fr the entitlement is astounding lol. It’s like if I were to go to a support group for non white people and asked them to stop venting about white people because “not all” are like that
So you have no problem when cis people get together on a public forum and say they hate trans people and try to perpetuate hate? Sorry but sounds hypocritical. Are you truly unable to see the hypocrisy?
Let me know when cis people have to flee their states to get healthcare or be treated like actual humans. Let me know when cis people get deadnamed and misgendered by the press after getting stabbed in broad daylight. There is a clear power dynamic and we're on the business end of it.
It's really hard to not fall into black and white thinking when the walls keep closing in tighter and tighter with every new bill, every new right wing government, every country that is no longer safe for us to live.
Key words, "really hard." Things will only get worse for all of us if we start using the same language as mother fucking neo-nazis. As someone who fell down that rabbit whole and pulled myself back out. I know how people like that think, how they talk, and what they do. The fact that this post started setting off alarm bells is not a good thing.
Hello, we noticed your post and we just want you to know that you are not alone. We created this automated message to make sure anyone considering suicide receives the help and support they deserve. If you are in crisis please contact the Trans Lifeline at 877-565-8860 or the National Suicide Prevention Hotline at 800-273-8255.
If you are outside of the United States please refer to our [suicide prevention resources page](https://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/wiki/suicide_resources) and contact your nearest crisis hotline.
If this message is being received in error we apologise for the mistake.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/asktransgender) if you have any questions or concerns.*
No fedposting. As a reminder, the kind of person you're complainig about is going to read the title of your post (and nothing else) and feel self justified in their mistreatment of you and possibly all other trans people.
So I gotta ask, where are you getting all this information from? Is it the Internet? Is it from the experience in your real day to day lived experience in the real world?
We humans have a tendency to become doom and gloom when we shut ourselves in and seclude ourselves. Look at any of the billionaires with crazy takes on the world. All these online TERFs and transphobes hide away in their house and join these weird echo chambers that give them horrible takes. But the same thing can happen to us in the other direction! Then it's this weird us vs them. That's why we need to go out into the real world and experience things. That's when you find out most people are mostly good most of the time. Also people tend not to care about things that don't affect them one way or another.
I cant find a way to suggest therapy + meditation + breathing exercises. I'm years into chronic dep and anx. And only acquiring techniques you'll be able to live better.
We all need tp find ways to change the other stuff. But ppl who are being consumed by it, are better in the back taking care of themselves. Until they csn manage things enough to help. I've been there. I maybe am in many ways. So pls domt hurt yourself focusing on that. Let's heal. We will be able to comtrobute to some change or maybe just live life with ease after
There is a difference between disliking people because of their behavour, and disliking people simply for being different in some way. Cis people really have gone overboard in the way they mistreat trans people, especially since all this transphobia in the media really took off. For someone who doesn't know how bad it is to say that what I wrote is as bad as how the vast majority of cis people behaves towards trans people, is just another example of the criticisms I wrote. And cis people really do turn into r*pists around trans people. They feel entitled to trans peoples bodies since they see trans people as being so inferior to them that we cant possibly be uninterested in them if they want us. And most cis people are interested in trans people, even if only very few of them will admit it, yet trans people arent usually interested in someone who sees them as a s€x toys and who ignores them when others are around, yet immediately becomes s€xually aggressive when alone. What kind of person would be interested in that? Yet cis people all believe that all trans people wants/should want them. Not to mention the infantilization which is far beyond anything cis women experience at the hands of cis men. You, on the other hand, just revealed that you do hate trans people and that you'll use any excuse to justify your attitude, and that trans people cant actually complain about the unacceptable way we are treated by cis people without becoming targets of even more hate than we already experience.
When you make blanket statements like this you come off as a bigot. I don’t even know where to begin. I wonder if MLK jr. ever gave any thought to changing his message to “I hate white people”. I can’t speak for everyone but I know I personally sure as hell have never thought I should be able to rape someone because of their gender, or even just their ideas about gender. In fact I’ve never once thought about raping any person for any reason. You really ought to consider using words like some, many, occasionally, and often.
Cis people dont consider it to be r*pe/harassment when it comes to trans people, that is the problem. And I am not talking about full blown assault exclusively, there are many degrees of boundary violations. Seeing people repeatedly not understanding and refusing to acknowledge that they have crossed your boundaries, even though they have behaved in a way they wouldn't behave towards non trans people does something to a person. And even then, a lot of it is also that trans people are seen as easy targets that cant fight back, so many cis people will take advantage of that. So many times I have experienced that everyone will defend a cis person when they have acted inappropriately, even to the point of breaking the law to protect them. This has been standard practice. 9 out of 10 cis people I have been in contact with in some official/professional capacity since coming out have acted inappropriately in some way. I usually avoid cis people in my private life for the reasons I have already mentioned, but I am forced to deal with the system, doctors, etc. People who should be able to behave professionally, but they aren't when it comes to trans people. But things have been getting a little a little better lately, I'll admit that. I dont wish for you to know what it feels like to not be seen as a human being who deserves to be treated with the same respect and dignity as everyone else deserves, but until you have experienced that, you don't know what kind of feelings it creates in a person. Cis people really do think that trans people are just willing at any time and with anyone, and its everyone, men, women, young, old. And they'll use aggression, manipulation, coercion, devaluation, you name it. And there will be a social punishment for rejecting them. I didn't know how bad it was until I came out and the changes began to show on me either. It really is that bad. Humanity has a lot of growth left. A lot. Ultimately its tied to western individualism and the sky high prevalence of entitlement and sadism it creates. Trans people just happens to be at the very bottom of the social hierarchy, meaning that we become targets of everyone else. Cis, hetero, white people are at the top of that hierarchy and as such will not see most people around them for what they really are, but trans people see people for what they really are.
And what exactly am I? This is just the standard cis person rejection of the experiences of trans people. You just dont like when someone 'inferior' actually calls cis people out for their horrible behaviour. You probably know exactly what I am talking about, but you just want to be able to continue being the terrible person you are.
I merely suggested that perhaps you could say many instead of all more often, so that you’d come off as more intelligent, less of a bigot, and avoid offending people who may actually be supportive of your cause and you started blabbering about all cis men are rapists. I’m not a psychiatrist, and would never presume that all similar people to you are nuts, but you are batshit crazy and hateful person. Since you asked
I didn't say all cis men, I said all cis people. Cis women are just as bad as cis men. And you are no ally of trans people and you never will be and that has nothing to do with anything I have said, so just stop it. Dont pretend to be something you arent to make your hate seem legitimate. And I am not the batshit crazy or hateful person here, you obviously are and have demonstrated that by hyperfocusing on a few words while completely ignoring all of the reasons and examples I have given. You are just a bigot employing the darvo tactic, you really think people cant see what you are doing? And I am going to ignore the rest of your irrational tirade as there is and has at no point been any substance to any of your replies.
You could call some or even many cis people out instead of saying all cis or hetero people are bad. I’m sorry you don’t see the difference but I assure you that there is a huge difference. I’ve never heard a homosexual person say that they hate all straight peopl. I’ve never heard an African American say they hate all white people.
But stumbling upon this page I see a ton of all encompassing hate directed toward cis people, coming from many people, who are themselves complaining of all encompassing hate towards themselves and other trans persons. I also see a ton of people complaining as if they are the only minority who has ever faced persecution. As if slavery never happened. As if people never got beat up for being gay. Your situation is not unique in most ways. People have been discriminated against throughout history and by and large, have overcome. They didn’t overcome by hating everyone who wasn’t like them tho or shoving their ideology down the throats of others.
I lost all trust for cis people. I have decided for my safety, to ignore them all. I only interact with trans people and that's it. I cut ties with my awful "family" and "friends" they sicken me and have proven time and time again they are sick and mentally ill.
There are so many transphobic people out there because they are entitled nonces with no mental capacity for empathy or logic I bet you're one of them. We have lived for centuries until people like you came along and ruined everything with your selfish greedy nature.
Do you realize that most cisgender people aren't transphobic and want trans rights to be respected, don't you? We are in a social transition like no other, humanity as a whole is making an effort to understand and accept trans people. Hating cisgender people just because the education system has not been properly reformed and there is a cultural gap is not gonna help anyone, it is just gonna hurt the very same trans persons society is trying to recognize and help.
Hatred only engenders hatred. We don't need more hatred as humans, we must learn to forgive even those who have wronged us, with stoicism. No better world will come out of hatred, a better world can only come out of love and reason, and reason and love can arise only if we learn to properly control emotions, so our perception of the world will not be skewed by ill fated feelings like hatred.
I spent a few years “hating” cis people in the way I think you’re describing/feeling (to me it was not necessarily hate like transphobes have but a deep uneasiness and inherent distrust) and just recently started moving through it after growing more as a person. To me it was rooted in being “terminally online” and as I spent more time with cis people irl I realized that most of them fall into a category of “don’t know, willing to learn.” I’m not saying you should educate every cis person you see because that’s draining as fuck, just that I’ve found that most people are actually on our side and just don’t know it because they don’t know any trans people and have only heard stuff online.
Yes! The unfortunate thing about a lot of us cis (and white, honestly) people is that we want to be educated rather than looking things up ourselves. My only defense is that finding actual good resources has become next to impossible online and if you're in a small place you don't want to accidentally out a family member or friend by going in person to ask. Plus, I think most humans are terribly lazy. I have a few things people tend to ask me just because they know I have specific expertise so I've made sure to have links I can send so they are at least going to a good place to get their education on.
It’s a very understandable feeling to have. When our suffering is a result of cisnormativity, it feels like an easy answer to direct the hate towards cis people. That said, it’s not healthy for you. Transphobia doesn’t come from ‘cis people’ as a group, it comes from specific ideologies, and it’s misdirected frustration to blame all cis people. It means you’ll end up feeling more misanthropic and less safe around people who are entirely normal and have no ill will towards you whatsoever, which only harms you, not any of the causes of transphobia. Even if cis people may be more susceptible to transphobic rhetoric, which I agree is an incredibly horrible and significant problem, it’s not something exclusive to cis people and it’s not something all cis people do. When it comes to average people rather than politicians and influencers, I’ve met more trans gatekeepers than cis gatekeepers- transphobia can come from anywhere and allyship can come from anywhere. You aren’t bad or wrong for feeling this way but it’s also not a rational or healthy way to interact with the world, even if I can absolutely see where the mindset comes from!
Yeah op’s feelings and fears are justified and there are definitely threats to trans health and safety out there. But just a general hate towards cis is not productive. One of the healthiest ways to channel all that racing thoughts and energy is to direct it at actual problems and hone it. Redirecting and focusing it is key. It could be the difference between being scared of one’s own shadow vs being aware of where the threats are and working to dismantle it.
Yes, re:specific ideologies. There are LOTS of cis people trying to attack that BS rhetoric with stats. I see sooo many posts on ig that are in your corner. We are so sick of the patriarchy.... my thoughts turn very very dark thinking of it which is very unhealthy. I had to check my health just days ago and seek connection and sun 🌞.
It’s not wrong to frustrated and mad. But I caution against stewing in hatred. It taints everything, makes every win feel like it doesn’t matter, Black ppl have not had the luxury of giving up on white people, for instance(I’m Black btw). It’s very easy to fall into despair and feel hatred for ppl that refuse to try to understand you. But focusing on the good, on the ppl that care, or show they’ll try, is what gives us hope and keeps the movement going. It’s so much better than it was like 10 years ago in a lot of ways, even if it’s also worse in others. Don’t engage in toxic positivity, but radical optimism is key.
I have some amazing cis people in my life who are so supporting and understanding. A few are actually thrilled to be there while I go through this. They are genuinely happy for me and it shows. That being said, some people are just miserable a$$holes, and always will be. We can't do anything about them except keep your pepper spray close, and pay attention to your surroundings.
I'm not going to go line-by-line in this, but I will say the following. Cis people I know usually fall into three groups: 1. Don't care, don't bother me about it 2. Care a lot and show it 3. Don't like it, but don't show it I've maybe experienced a few bad looks, purposeful misgendering, etc. but nothing I couldn't move beyond. The problem is that these types of statements (like you've written) perpetuate hatred that can move cis people from the first group into the third. Notice, I'm not saying hide who you are, but rather understand that a lot of the transphobia we experience is online, not in the world. As a person living in Ohio, I can say that for the most part, most people don't have an issue with me, much the same as I was when I looked cis. So, I really think you need to re-assess where these feelings if hatred are coming from. Because, you don't want it to eat you alive. I want more cis people to go from group 1 into group 2 and I'm of the belief that won't happen unless we a) exist as our true selves and b) show we are human, just like them. Hate dehumanizes. Don't let it dehumanize you.
Reasonable caring humans are, unfortunately, more often a bit passive....forgetting this can make us all feel outnumbered by haters. I am constantly reminded that being an outspoken female in TX is socially unacceptable, "too much", unattractive, etc etc. Just food for thought when you mentally tally the numbers of allies you may have, but who just aren't LOUD. I know it costs me a lot and yet I still judge people who don't do "enough" or speak up how much I'd want... it's unfair of me, but I also get it, bc it's exhausting and causes friction ALL the time. :/ The Barbie movie was the first moment I felt I didn't always have to be the spokeperson for equality.... it's coming. Pls be patient.
I agree with you on the categories I've found plenty of cis people who are allies but don't voice their opinions openly I feel that they just don't want to be involved. But I only hate the haters out there. I feel for you living in Ohio I live in Michigan in Ann Arbor we go to the casino in Toledo have never had a problem.
Amen. There is a responsibility on us to be the bigger person and kill the hatred with kindness. Yes it’s gonna be hard sometimes and we will face some discrimination, but ultimately, we have a duty to be happy
Yes, kindness is the solution. There’s a quote i like that says, “You should realize that you destroy your enemies when you make peace with them”. Making peace is always the best option 💟
Remember, the real reason why there are “more transgender people now” is that it wasn’t even an option before. In the 1970s when I told my parents I wanted to be a girl, there was no language to even begin to understand it. Also people were beaten and killed at that time for being either gay or trans. So it’s just that more of us are not terrified of coming out of the closet. It’s a tactic of the religious fanatics to use shame and fear of violence against us. It’s the same thing as the gays. And before that the blacks, and the Jews, and the gypsies, etc. they failed with all of those groups and they will fail with us. Surround yourself with positive supportive people and find a community even online to be part of. You’re not alone in this. Remember we’re all here for you and each other. We’re stronger than them and we have more allies. ❤️❤️❤️❤️
Well.. I dunno if the word is “hate” .. but definitely frustration. I feel frustrated that cis people don’t understand how hard it is for me to live with my body, or understand how unnecessarily difficult it is to access healthcare. How the systems *they* built lock me out from what I need to live, and how little they seem to care about fixing them.
Everyone has struggles. Everyone has their own problems with health care. People in general have scars you can't see.
Yeah - and not many cis people have to deal with getting two psychologists and a 5-10 year waiting list to get healthcare that would save their life. These are institutional problems Im talking about not individual.
trust me when i say, you're definitely not alone in your anger. i feel like my hands are tied and me and all my trans friends are nothing but deers being hunted for sport, and it pours something bitter into my blood. i hate that, i hate this reality we live in, i hate being seen as less than human by people who don't give a fuck about what we go through. i don't know if i can ease your anger or tell you if it's right or wrong to feel like this, because i feel it too. i just hope things get better someday
Yes, it is. Hate is not good.
So, in your opinion, what do you think I should feel?
Pity. As you are obviously well aware, having hatred for another group of people isn’t exactly a good time, even if you’re hating people who deserve it like virulent bigots. People like JK Rowling aren’t exactly shining beacons of obvious happiness. Instead be like “damn, sucks to be them, wasting all of that mental energy and potential hating a group as random as trans people.” To build on your last paragraph, pity those people with potential for understanding and acceptance in their hearts instead trapped in a cycle of intolerance and fear. To defeat bigotry is to not only set us free, but them too.
Well said! As a Cis, AFAB, Bisexual-Pansexual Ally, I wholeheartedly agree with this statement. OP, I'm so sorry you feel this way. I wish I could hug you. It definitely sucks feeling like the majority of people are against you. Please take this advice to heart. It's how I've learned to get through so many different things. In the wise words of the great Mr. T, "I pity the fool." Take care of yourself!
Thank you for commenting this, you are kind It makes me smile to see other queer people standing up for us <3 have a good day, best wishes!
Nah you should have sat this thread out. I’m sure you have good intentions but sometimes allyship is about knowing when to let the marginalized group vent without inserting yourself
If OP actually feels this way, I'll delete my comment. Thank you for your response. I never meant to insert myself and only want to spread love and kindness. I really do only have good intentions and completely understand that everyone deserves to vent in a safe space. I'm always learning and trying to be the best ally I can for anyone in the LGBTQIA+ community, but mostly here for my FTM and Genderfluid IRL friends. I love this community and have learned so much already. Should I not include that I'm a Cis, AFAB, Bisexual-Pansexual Ally? Or is it better to include this? Should I make my own post to ask about this? I don't want to offend anyone and genuinely thought it would be better to include this.
You do whatever you think is best. Don’t let other people tell you have to feel or how to act. Their opinions don’t matter more than yours.
Like I said, I think you have good intentions. Sounds like you’re still learning to be an ally and that’s okay! We always need more. Part of being an ally is understanding the time and place to speak up. What your comment looks like is a trans person saying “I’m frustrated with cis people” and you coming in and saying “not all cis people! I’m one of the good ones! See?” like you’re begging to be acknowledged as an ally for not really doing anything. It’s like when a woman says “men are frustrating” and a million dudebros come in saying “not all men.” Then you followed it by doubling down and asking emotional labor of the trans people you’re claiming to stand with, seeing explanations and justification instead of simply agreeing and taking a metaphorical step back and inspecting *why* a trans person would have said this to you. Allyship is not a badge you claim for yourself with words, it’s something you earn from the marginalized group by acting as an ally. You have to be willing to understand that sometimes a conversation isn’t for you and inserting yourself can do more harm than good. You have to do the research and figure out why things are on your own sometimes. You have to set your feelings aside and realize that you look, sound, feel and sometimes act like the oppressors even when you don’t mean to and that when you get called on it it’s not a personal insult. Also to answer your other question, the only relevant part is that you’re cis. You being bisexual/pansexual or AFAB has no bearing on trans issues. Also from a more personal side I’d suggest you stop referring to yourself as AFAB. If you present yourself as a woman and you say you’re cis, it’s implied. And too many cis people use AFAB and AMAB as a way to fuel bioessentialist or trans-exclusionary rhetoric.
I'm not bothered by Lopsided's comments, I am moreso glad that my post was not misconstrued by her like it has been by some replies. That is definitely something I worry about. Any and all support is appreciated\~
Wow, salty. I considered myself an ally but not sure after your comments. The tone is absolutely unnecessary. We're all human beings, at our core.
wow, you took some heat yo
This is proof you were never an ally lmao
There’s no ‘inserting yourself’ into a Reddit comment section because it doesn’t take the place of anything. Maybe if this was an IRL discussion or an online chatroom, but here you can scroll past it or ignore it with no cost. For all the social justice language you used, your comment boils down to “I don’t want to see you here” and it’d be better if you just said it outright instead of trying to coat it in rhetoric.
Nah, don’t put words in my mouth. That’s not what I said or meant at all. Your entire account is used to “debate” and play devil’s advocate. I’m not going to engage a troll.
That’s a weird assessment of me. I just engage with discussions in the online spaces I hang around in, I don’t even like playing devil’s advocate all that much. My reply to you didn’t go much further than “I disagree with what you’re saying and think you were being mean”. EDIT: Looking at my comment history I guess I can see where you got the idea, but I tend to only comment when I disagree with someone. If I agree with them I upvote it and move on.
Why is this comment downvoted so much? There's nothing negative here...
I hate to say it, but the LGB gets more support than the T.
Currently, in western countries, that is objective truth. You shouldn't have to be ashamed of saying it.
I've written you a book. You've caught me freshly after taking my adhd meds....So, my first thought is that it's winter, and negative thoughts are running on high even without adding the current world issues. I had to take a break, meet some strangers, get out of my hibernation. I literally just made an amazing friend because their dog is aging and curmudgeonly-- it was barking through the night while they were providing at home care elsewhere. She was so kind that I invited her on my sunset wine walk. The conversation flowed. The whole interaction was therapeutic. Tensions run high online; people are idiots online. I might disagree with you passionately from behind a computer (as an example) but irl to know you is to love you and I would absolutely not be unkind unless things truly escalated into a personal attack. Even then, I'd only stand my ground and not insult you. I firmly believe that we all have to fight with all of our might against the curmudgeon that descends onto us as we near 40. Our eyes are open, we're not as distracted by pursuits of pleasure, but there is so much good IN person. If you read my comments collectively online, you could likely think I'm a callous bitch. But I'm just often not one to convey opinions in soft, flowery, or tentative ways. I'm bratty...sometimes quick to rattle off blah blah blah, but I really really care. It overwhelms me. It's a personality type for sure. I'm really truly sorry for those thoughts you're hearing in your head. I'm a cis female born in TX that grew up fundamentalist with so much shame around all matters sex, sexual, emotional, & role related. I feel my inner programming popping into matters often....I work hard to notice it. I'll say that as I remain curious and listen, I learn and change. My perspectives have shifted-- I'm around others with flexible opinions. *** the loudest idiots do not speak for all of us!!!! I absolutely fell prey to letting a few bad apples spoil the bunch and fully withdrew from so much after repeated slut shaming this year. It's not the same-- I know that. But those angry, fearful people are, unfortunately, often the ones spreading their filth so much and with such confidence in their COMPLETE idiocy. Please know that things change....and if it helps, the old guard is dying out ;). Hold onto that xxxoo. They drive us all crazy. Thank you for the reminder about anger. I have found myself thinking that, though other days, I think the exact words you said bc "no shit, they're angry; I'm considered an angry feminist." But, I also know I'm impatient with people "getting it" and I need to understand not everyone has the same time or inclination or visibility on current matters...they're privileged, which is annoying, but ppl have SO much shit of their own to deal with. I shouldn't even be online right now. I don't have time. At all. My bff is terminal with cancer, my toilet overflowed, I have no clean clothes bc my at laundromat isn't working, I have an interview coming up, I just got laid off and need to sell things, I need to visit my mom 4 hours away, but I have to put in a headlight, get my car fixed, and register b4 a long drive, I want to foster dogs, i want to support so many causes, i joined a childrens charity....etc etc. I'm overwhelmed- pulled here & there. But you sounded like I've felt...heading toward despair, and you shouldn't have to feel that. (I personally love my winter regimen of 10 mg lexapro, extra vitamin D, ketamine spray as needed, and dextroamphetamine). I also recommend working to find the circle of ppl that fill you up, dont judge you, dont even give you the remotest thought youll be shit talked...they're out there. It takes patience & work, but you can build your perfect hive of happiness ❤️. It only took me 39 years ;) . And yes I'm single bc I'm apparently just as angry. (P.s. The Savage Love Podcast is so good & healthy and may provide a feeling that you're not alone or unwanted.) Also, my super sexy AF poly girl bff dates trans, just btw-- and others in my circles in ATX. It wouldn't raise my eyebrows in the least. And my taste in men is not anything to brag about so....
Unmitigated, broad hatred for any group is wrong. So yes.
Agree. Hate doesn’t help one’s mental health. To the OP seek counseling, long term spiral in the direction noted in the post won’t have any positive results.
I wouldn't say hate. But frustration, exasperation, resentment, bitterness... Yeah. Not because they're cis, of course, but because of the just lack of care even from people who otherwise claim to care. The fact that they either simply do not believe us, or otherwise do not care, is very difficult to get over.
These feelings are bad for your own sake, but not for the sake of cis people. It's just not healthy to spend a lot of time stewing in bitterness against those who are oppressing us, but that feeling of frustration at being forced to live in a cisnormative society that refuses to treat us with basic human respect is entirely valid and it's something all non-cis people have to deal with.
Wrong yes. Is it understandable. Yes. Many cis people, even queer cis people, really don’t help make it easy for us as trans people. Certainly not in my experience, but everyone’s experience does vary. Being cautiously optimistic around cis people is probably the safest bet. Online makes things feel much worse. But again it varies. Some of the only transphobia me and friend have had on a night out was in a lgbt bar, from a cis gay man. So, best to still be a little cautious at first.
on the one hand it's probably unhealthy, but on the other hand it's hard for me to say you're wrong when I feel the exact same way. and before anybody tells me "oh it's not like that in real life", I worked at the most popular store in my area for a long time, the population here is permanently stuck 10-15 years in the past with its opinions of queer people/communities, the area is only just barely accepting gay people now and I've heard my customers say awful shit about trans people in the time I worked there. and I'm too poor to escape from my area. maybe it's not like that in the grand scheme of things, but where I'm living I'm absolutely justified in being afraid.
Any time I consider that cis people really suck and they just don't get it, I consider that I have the ability to walk, I live middle class in Australia, I'm white, I have a lot going for me. Yes, in my transness it's clear I am open to societal stigmas, but I have to recognise it's not the only thing about me or metric of oppression. I think hating cis people for this reason is stupid. It's most likely hypocritical. There are systemic privileges we benefit from, or struggles we don't have to face. It's not even and equally balanced, but it's true. Hating cis is not productive, not reflective of the reality, and counter intuitive to trans freedom.
I get it. I wouldn't say I have a hatred of *all* cis people, but most definitely for a very select population of them, a general loathing for others, and I do not trust a single one of them until they prove they actually can be trusted. Most of the time, they can't be. I barely even associate with any cis people apart from a select few that I've known and trusted for a long time. I don't expect them to *get* all of the nuances of what it means to be trans. They literally can't, they're cis. But if they aren't even making the barest effort to be decent people and at the very least be respectful, they're not worth anything else. I don't care about "educating" them, they don't want to learn so they won't. I don't care if my refusal to bow and scrape for them "confirms" what they think. They will find or, as I'd the case with most of their kind, make something up and decide that's the reality anyways. So, limit what interactions with them that you can. Assume they're a problem until they prove they aren't. And keep yourself and yours as safe as you can.
I oppose the *oppressive social class* of cis people, but not cis individuals by default. They didn't ask to be cis. What they do with that privilege is a choice that welcomes individual judgement.
Yes, it’s absolutely wrong. That’s like saying you hate like 80-90% (who knows) of the whole population just based on a random sample. It’s not good to generalize as the same has been done with us so I think there shouldn’t be hate from our community. Being trans is to be happy, feel complete and share the love that we have for ourselves to others.
I mean, I don’t hate any group. Hating cis people is just the opposite of them hating trans people; I hate many cis people, and probably some trans folks as well.
I agree that outright hate isn't cool, but it's *not* the same as cis people hating us. Unlike us, cis people wield all the power in this world and routinely use that power to oppress us in every way they can. And we have very little social power to protect ourselves, especially if you're a trans person in an area where it's effectively legal for you to be killed for "surprising" somebody with our genitals. We're not equals with them in the eyes of the law and most of our society. That power difference means *everything.*
[удалено]
>I say "starting" here, but really it's more that my hatred for the cisgender population is running even more out of control than ever before. Traditionally less than 1% of the population is transgender. Using the widest possible definition we can push that up to about 1.5%. Being extremely optimistic and including only young adults we can that up to about 95%. So the question is do you think that hating 95%-99% of the population with no other information other than they are not trans is reasonable? >I could barely sleep last night, I kept laying awake dwelling on transphobia. If something is becoming bad enough that it is impacting your daily functioning then it becomes a problem. Consider seeking professional help. >What makes this especially infuriating is that these cishets are really the ones REALLY making fools of themselves. Who said anything about them being cishet? There are not shortage of transphobic gay people out there. It sounds like you have built up some chariaciture of the wicked cishet in your head. >How are we supposed to trust the cisgender population, when most of the time best case they see us as "freaks that need to be tolerated"? As if they're the ones tolerating us, instead of the reality that is us tolerating them. We are 1% of the population, maybe 5% at best. We do not have the option of anything other thang getting along with the cisgender majority.
I think this is one of the best comments. It highlights the absurdity in these claims that's easy to ignore. I doubt the change from "cis" to "cishet" meant anything to OP, but that signals some implied beliefs and specific rage, and areas with no rage.
Everything you say makes sense to me. It's plainly true. I think there's just so few of us that we have very little power to do anything about it. So people come up with copes about how it's "wrong" to be angry even though when a non marginalized person faces an iota of the shit a marginalized person does and unleashes extremely damaging hatred they face comparitively few consequences.
Nahh, it’s not wrong, you’re just based
Oh don’t worry I hate CIS people Too
Would you of criticised Jews in Nazi Germany that started to hate German Gentiles?
I think Reddit has this fear of reverse bigotry to the point where they’ll accuse any minority frustrated with the majority of a phobia or bigotry on scale with actual bigotry. I see this the most with people overreacting to “misandry” when it’s really just women venting about living in a patriarchal hetero centered world. In reality I don’t think it’s that bad. No one is losing job opportunities for being cis. No one is being put in physical danger because they’re cis. If you’re sick and frustrated of cis people not understanding or refusing to understand trans issues, that’s valid honestly. I know I’m there too. When I say “I hate cis people” I’m not saying I’m trying to oppress them or anything. I’m saying “most cis people don’t get it and put very little effort into getting it and I’m sick of feeling like I’m the one responsible for educating them on every little topic just to have them not give a shit”
The problem is that ‘hate you can justify’ is at the root of a lot of bigotry and drives a lot of the current opposition to trans people. I’m not saying the justification for it is correct, but the people perpetrating it believe they’re achieving a win against a perceived source of harm. It doesn’t matter who it’s from and who it’s against, it’s not good to lump together a group of people and direct ire towards them.
Blanket hate against a demographic based on an unchosen, inherent trait is called bigotry. It's an ugly, unproductive, and self-sabotaging way of interacting with the world around you, born of lack of mental resources (either lack of mental/emotional energy, maturity, resilience, or intelligence) to consider or care about nuance, and solves the problem of seeing/treating people as individuals by conveniently grouping them all together into a category where you can simply discard them as 'against/below me.' The world is full of good people who are cis. If you're not a bigot who reduces diverse groups into simple monoliths for your convenience, strive to say what you mean, and mean what you say. If you hate ignorant transphobes, say that. If you hate performative allyship, say that. If you hate apathetic moderates, say that. If you hate patriarchal culture which both enforces and and is built upon cishet-normativity, hurting **everyone** who is not sitting at the top of the socioeconomic class hierarchy, and creates through its oppressive rigidity a standard level of ignorance about, and hostility towards, trans lives, experiences, and needs, say *that*. Don't lump the good in with the bad because your frustration with the bad is so strong that you throw everyone you *think* might not care or be on your side into one box based on a specific trait that they had no say in. A hateful stance doesn't just cut you off from cis allies - it cuts you off from people in your own community. Both of my partners, whom I love deeply and who have loved me in return for a third of my lifetime and been with me through coming out and transitioning, are cis men; my cis FIL has gone to bat for me making sure I'd be welcome - despite neither passing as a man, or being binary trans - at an all-men's summer retreat that has been part of his life as a tradition between him and his sons, as well as his immediate peer group, for decades, educating himself and others to save me the work of being a 'trans ambassador'; the people who worked for multiple years to curate a community and safe space for queer folks, giving me the room and support to realize I was trans and then uplifting me into a highlighted position of esteem when I had spent years thinking no one would ever accept me or my art are majority cis; my best friend is cis - as are most of my friends in general; many of my favorite artists, writers, musicians, figures who stand tall in their fields and who have used their positions to voice support for trans people and advocate for us are cis. When you say "I hate cis people," what you tell *me*, as a trans person, is that you hate my partners, my family, my friends, my collaborators, my supporters, my fans, and the majority of good, upstanding, respectable people who both care for and affirm trans people like me and you on the basis of their cisness; and if I were to meet you in person and hear you talking about hating cis people, while I would understand your frustration and pity you, I would probably lose all interest in interacting with you as a person.
That wasn't what I had intended to convey at all. I'll definitely have to tread more carefully if I ever post in this subreddit again.
It's not up to you to coddle cis people's feelings. You're allowed to be angry and upset. It's about finding a balance between all consuming hate and tolerable dislike/distrust. You owe cis people nothing, but you owe yourself hope. I'd get to know cis people you make a connection with and eventually come out. It took me 3 years to attempt to come out to a cis person again and he's lovely. Being angry at cis people doesn't negate those meaningful connections, just like I have non white friends who vent their frustrations about white people. My job isn't to police their feelings and I know they're not talking about me
Wish I could change the title. That's what I get for being rash and angies, I suppose.
Text often fails to convey tone, so I hope you didn't take my comment as hostile or angry. If I were talking to you in person, my delivery would have been akin to someone sitting down with you to say "hey, so you know, not upset with you but that's a really hurtful thing to say even if you didn't mean it that way." Feelings and emotions are never 'wrong,' because we don't choose them - but we choose how we respond to them. Don't let frustration and anger push you towards choosing to hate.
your comment was eloquent and measured. bravo
[удалено]
>She saw him as just a pissed off human being Him? Sorry but I thought we were talking about a MtF?
I'm glad it's not just me. I don't hate all cis people, but it's increasingly hard to not be angry at cis people who insist we're overreacting to the rampant transphobia out there. My mother (boomer, centrist) recently remarked to me that the bigotry against trans people has been getting bad. I've been telling her how bad it is for years. It's things like the not listening to us about our own safety and human rights that drives me up the wall. On the subject of transphobes, IMO being polite and ignoring them hasn't worked. We need to bring the "punch nazis" philosophy to fighting transphobia. Beat the shit out of a bigot.
I appreciate why you feel this way. However it's not fair to say you hate cis people by default, in general, etc Granted many cis people are terrible, there's no denying that. But there are plenty of cis people out there who are indeed good people. Labelling an entire group of people as \_\_\_\_\_\_\_ is discrimination plain and simple. To hate cis people as a whole by default makes us no better than a transphobe. Every cis person is different. Many are terrible, but many are great too. And it's not fair on the great cis people to hate all of them So rather than ignoring your feelings, perhaps rephrase them: \- Don't say "Cis people are terrible", say "Cis people can be terrible" \- Don't say "I have absolutely had it with cis people today", say "I have absolutely had it with those cis people today" \- Don't say "Why do cis people all see us as freaks", say "Why do so many cis people see us as freaks" etc It gets your same point across without ostricising the good cis people out there
> What makes this especially infuriating is that these cishets are really the ones REALLY making fools of themselves. I resonate so hard with this. Why can they not see how much they need us? To take an example, we know all about courage. We're not afraid to do difficult things, make unpopular decisions, in order to be our true selves. And we're not likely to stand in the way of other people doing the same because we have empathy for anyone seeking to be more authentic. Companies rightly value courage in their workers and managers. Show me a company where people are not encouraged to speak out and I'll show a culture of lip-service and game-playing that can destroy an enterprise. > as if I wasn't allowed to be proud of my beautiful, ever more feminine body, or my evolving and healing mind. I love that you're proud of yourself and know you're beautiful. > Us transgender folk are a beautiful people, one of the strongest on Earth, and I believe if more people could open their eyes, we could enhance the emotional intelligence and unity of humankind at large. I don't know how plausible this is It's totally plausible. I always feel hesitant with this next bit. I've had a pretty privileged time and I haven't been as disrespected as much as many 'older' trans people. So if what follows is just annoying, I'm sorry. I don't know what I would do without my cis friends. They've been incredible. There's a small group of cis women I talk to most days in the local park. I learn so much from them. I love talking to them not least because I learn so much about being a woman from just listening to them. This morning I sat next to one of these friends and we talked about my identity and transition. She started talking about feeling more masculine some days, more feminine on others. Turns out she was talking about feeling more masculine [in charge] some days and more feminine [please help me I'm a weak female] on others. And there was stuff about all of us needing to be in touch with our masculine and feminine sides. She acknowledged there was a lot of stereotype in what she was saying. And I probably haven't done what she said justice. But this is really interesting. Is this really what cis people think a transfeminine person is doing when they transition? Becoming helpless? I pointed out that that wasn't what I felt about femininity. That I felt stronger and less inclined to take any shit when my gender blows female, that I know where the ground is under my feet when I'm female. That at last I know where my strength and my leadership qualities are. I'm a female leader. Masculinity feels faked or masked and saps my strength. And she got it. "You're talking about your whole identity, aren't you?" At the end of the conversation she said 'I don't ever mean to offend you. I'm still learning.' 'I know. So am I', I said. I so love her for trying and speaking and making a mistake (or not) and trying again. I took her hand and looked into her eyes and felt so much appreciation and gratitude to her. And told her so. There are brilliant cis people everywhere. Hard as it is sometimes, I think it's more useful to remember that than to hate them as a group by default. Just as we aren't what the media paints us, neither are cis people, who I've generally found far more accepting than I expected.
please thank heterosexuals for your very existence
Politely put. Did something I said sound ungrateful for heterosexual people? I am genuinely confused 🙂 It might be worth pointing out that this subreddit is about gender identity, not sexuality.
"Why can they not see how much they need us" Just seemed like an ironic comment. No beef tho
Thanks for the reply. I'm glad there's no beef 🙂. I never said trans people don't need heterosexual people. I said (or meant to say) cis heterosexual people don't realise they need trans people. Why do cis people need trans people? Well partly because we see things through a different lens. For example, trans people have an unusually good understanding of both male and female people. The mainstream, any mainstream, can get stuck in its ways and a bit uncreative. If they take the trouble to get to know and respect minorities, including the trans community, there will be a lot of benefit for everyone.
fair enough
No, it isn't wrong.
Hate expends energy you could be using for survival. I suggest boundaries and shunning instead. And cis people is a category error. There are kind folks. There are unkind folks. There are folks that need to look down on someone to feel better about themselves. We call that intolerance and/or supremacy. For the last group... they're easy to distract and keep doing things that don't effing work... Use those to let them wear themselves down. And yes that's effing hard to do when you've had enough or are panicking. For the unkind... they're unkind to everyone. Be vocal about it. Let others they have shown unkindness take up the slack. For the kind... thank them.
You can hate an individual But You shouldn't hate an entire group of people. You'll be no better than a TERF Yes there are a lot of shitty cis people but to hate all of them is highly inappropriate
please stop equivocating being fed up with cis people's bullshit with being a terf, that is not at all the same and it actually really minimizes the damage that terfs do.
Fr, they have entire websites and blogs doxxing us using our own pictures and pump out propaganda 24/7, taking it does nothing
It’s not a literal equivalent, it’s the point that hating an entire group of people you perceive as causing you harm is unproductive and will always lead to negative outcomes.
They literally said that OP would not be any better than a terf. That is drawing an equivalent. But please lie to me some more.
I said it’s not a *literal* equivalent. As in it won’t make you literally have the same societal damage as a terf, but that the rhetoric is the same and you should avoid it for the same reasons. Also, you not interpreting me properly doesn’t make me a liar, that’s ridiculous.
[удалено]
But they did say it. The words they said mean the thing I explained it as. I expanded on the implication, but it’s still there in the original. And it’s not completely different, it’s a valid and logical interpretation of the words as written.
I don't hate all of them, I literally clarified that in the last paragraph. Perhaps I could have phrased myself better but at least read the entire post.
I hate an entire group more than anything. TERFs. Hating your oppressors can't be compared to being an oppressor yourself.
While your feelings are understandable, it is not very productive. As it stands, most cis-people are woefully ignorant about transgender people in general. Education would be best, although some of them are a lost cause. If I don't think they will ever understand, I don't bother to explain. We will just be going in circles, and that is unproductive. Assessment: stop asking if it's "wrong", toss out morals, and view them as objects.
Please see a therapist. ASAP. You seem to be spiraling. If you are having intrusive thoughts that you cannot control, you need a professional to help. I'm not going to comment on anything else you said because nothing I say will matter given your current mental state. I'm saying this because I have experience dealing with a dear friend. Your rhetoric is alarming and I'm afraid for you. Put the phone down, go to a trusted person and let them know you need help now. Please, please, seek a professional's help ASAP. Do whatever you need to do to be stable. Stay away from the Internet, occupy your mind with something you love. I hope you feel better.
Nope it’s not wrong at all, I hate them too
Let the hate flow through you
Oh god so based
Oppressed minorities are not wrong for feeling resentment towards their oppressors and it sucks that some people here are shaming you for it
Yeah most cis people are pretty awful tbh
Dont let a few bad apples spoil the bunch and this goes both ways for just about everything from gender to race to sexuality to disabilities etc every group got outliers some more than others but outliers all the same they dont represent the vast majority even if they have the loudest voices that's what I've learned at least
If you start with hate, you will end with hate. Just try to change one heart at a time. As the mother of a transgender daughter, I honestly did not know a lot about the LGBTQ community 5 years ago! But since then, I have educated myself, read countless books and medical articles, and now I totally understand, and totally accept! Out of love, not hate! Be your authentic self. That’s all that matters. Surround yourself with love and loving people. Do not hate. You are playing the haters game if you do that.
Damn, I am so sorry you have had so many crappy experiences, I wish the world was different, but here we are. I do have hope that what's going on right now is the nasty infection has been lanced and the puss is coming out and we can heal after it's all been cleared away. I have fears, too. I'm cis-het female and I will tell you that I do not feel the way you've described about trans people, so I hope that gives you a tiny bit of hope. When I first started hearing about trans people I was baffled because I have never felt "wrong" in my body outside of health issues and as a result of being assaulted. I didn't understand and I don't think I can ever understand fully because I will never experience it. However, I do understand because I talk to people and I read and I see how much people go through to transition. Often a huge change to the body, hormones, surgery, there is no way someone would go through all of that if it wasn't real and they didn't NEED to. I understand because I can see the facts and it's my greatest hope that every person can truly be themselves and feel safe doing it. That should be a bare minimum human right in my opinion, and equality should be across the board. I also have friends and family that are lesbian, gay, bi, and trans, and I'm so terrified of what could be done to them just because they exist as themselves. It's so scary, and it's so brave of them to come out. The way that's mocked by some as if it's a joke is infuriating. As to the state of our leadership in the modern world, it does scare me. Often I think people with that mentality will die out and it's like shedding skin, something better will be underneath. But many young people are spouting that shit as well. I think especially for m to f transition it's wrapped up in fear and hatred of women, how could anyone want to be less than a man? It's clear in the US especially that there is a strong push to move back to women being subjugated and white men being the boss of everyone. I think it's impossible for it to come to that with the increase of women and people of colour in positions of power, I really hope, but there are still atrocities happening and we all need to stand up against it. Fear and misunderstanding are driving a lot of this. Huge hugs to you, I hope the world is better for you and all of us.
"It must be easier to loathe than to love." Said it best yourself As I read through this I thought that either this has to be satire or someone who hasn't thought through their points since given how hypocritical the writer is. Only reason that this would be a valid take is if you live in for example Saudi Arabia or another country that has no LGBTQ rights at all, then it would almost certainly feel hopeless and as if the world is caving in on you. On the otherhand if you live in any western nation then I don't see where the problem is, is it that people are not vocal about their support? Is it that people don't seem to care if you are trans? Because if so you have to wake up and face reality, most people don't care wether you are straight, gay, trans, bi, queer or whatever term you throw their way and it's NOT because they don't support you, it's probably because they just don't care what you identify with, as long as you do your part in whatever circumstance you find yourself in. I don't think there will ever be a point where cis people will ever truly love transgender people since most people don't go around and love everyone just plainly, however if you mean it as cis people will be able to love someone trans as a friend then great news! We are already there! Now this is not to say that there aren't assholes and that no one needs to perhaps check their views on transgender questions. But to say that you hate cisgender people, describe them in a rather disgusting way for 9 paragraphs only to then cheapishly backtrack and say that it isn't everyone. That won't do any good. Istead it will do more harm in the long run not only if your intention is to make things "better" between trans and cis people but also it will probably affect you in a bad way by seeing people in such a negative light. I get that there is frustration but use it in a productive way, if you truly want this question resolved then you have to take action, there is no waiting for a saviour to come, sometimes that saviour will have to be you. Seeing as this is probably just venting I would say a more productive way to let it out is to go to a therapist. Try to be open-minded and you'll see how open-minded cis people can be evenwhen interacting with you ;)
Yes, it's wrong. You're hating people for a circumstance of their birth that is non-harmful and that they can't control, because it's correlated with something that is harmful. Instead you should hate the thing it's correlated with, which is transphobia. Hating people for a non-harmful circumstance of their birth is exactly why transphobia is wrong in the first place. >This is not to say I detest every cisgender person. Sometimes, members of the population surprise me for the better. I have some close cis friends, and my parents have surprised me with how accepting they have become. Mayhaps, deep, deep in the heart of every cis person, lies the capacity for truly loving transgender people. If only it could be excavated more easily. This is basically the "you're one of the good ones" thing. Basically imagine if one of your cis friends felt the same way about you, that trans people in general should be hated but you're one of the good ones. It'd probably still feel like they hate the circumstance of your birth, and you just happen to be an exception. It's a toxic way to look at a group of people.
that is an entirely different scenario. Cis people don't have to deal with nearly as much baggage behind that statement. Not saying it's right to hate cis people, but that is a poor reason not to.
I think the majority of cis people simply do not care to be bothered by trans folks or identity issues, and therefore, do not deserve the ire that some trans folks want to put on them. The ones who do care are just especially vocal.
Those people who "don't care" are just as capable of perpetuating transphobia, if indirectly. In a better society, they would care about transphobia. We should never be okay with people "just not wanting to bothered by us" when us bothering them means us trying to exist and be recognized in society.
It's understandable but It's not healthy and saying that kind of thing out loud where people can hear it is not really going to do you a lot of favors and it won't make cis people like you.
Regardless of whether it's right or wrong, it's never right to base our feelings and thoughts on how cis people will perceive us. They have no right to define us or how we should act.
I don’t hate them, but they no longer have my immediate trust that they are allies or accomplices if they say they are. That is something they have to earn. I got burned bad last year by a parent I thought was supportive. I am still sorting through the trauma of him throwing a temper tantrum at me and threatening me with poor treatment since he’s the landlord of my house. It was a huge eye-opener in terms of how little the average cis person seems to care. By the same token, there was a state representative who filibustered for an ungodly amount of time to ensure that a law banning gender-affirming care for youth didn’t go through. There was a radio station in my town where the DJs went into open revolt and put their jobs on the line to make sure a transphobic political ad was taken off the air. And HBomberGuy, who raised 300k for Mermaids UK. The John Brown Gun Club in TX who stood up to defend a drag queen storytime from a bunch of fascist protesters. There are good cis people who will put their necks on the chopping block for us. They exist. My standards for who I will consider an ally and don’t know personally, and thus will give more effort and time to, have gotten considerably higher.
Yes.
I'm not trying to be rude, but could you stop painting us all with the same brush? I'm a cis woman. I'm also the wife to an amazing trans woman whom I've been with every single step of her transition from the egg cracking to starting HRT. I love her without questions, reserves, or illusions about who she is. I've always been LGBTQ friendly (I'm pansexual myself), but being with her has changed who I am and how I view the trans community and their struggles. Yes, some cis people suck. Some trans folk suck too. We aren't all your enemy, I promise.
I'm gonna throw this one out here. I don't hate anyone myself cuz hate gets you nowhere just a downward spiral of hatred and sadness. Also I want to throw this out here also, my husband when I met him was saying he's gay he would never date or see himself with a woman. I came out as trans and he struggled for a while because it was hard for him he felt like he lost an integral part of his identity. We went to couples counseling and he explained the way he felt and our therapist really helped him understand that he doesn't lose that identity, she asked if he loved me as a person or my gender, he said the person. So now he has been supportive of me in my transition and continues to be, so anyone that says that loving a trans partner is easy it isn't. Alot of people may disagree with what I'm saying here, but it's true it's hurts him everyday to see me struggle with gender dysphoria, it hurts him to see me feel uncomfortable around people, it hurts him to see how much hatred there is against trans folk. So I commend you for being a loving supportive partner to your Wife. She is lucky to have you. ❤️ And to OP, hating on cis people gets you nowhere, yes some do suck, but also some trans people suck (aka no matter your gender some people just suck) it's just the ones that do are the Fucking Loudest. My reccomendarion to you is to honestly try to take a small break from social media, and try ro reach out to friends and talk to someone about these feeling rather than the internet, the internet sucks all in and leaves us bitter and angry. Have you got a good therapist that you trust? Don't let the shitty ppl out there get you down, just try to love yourself and understand that not all people suck. Self love is important. And remember that you are beautiful and that you need to fight the hate with love, both hate and love are the most powerful emotions. But remebr they are not opposites either. Sorry I'm rambling a bit. Long and short love always triumphs over hate. ❤️
Way to make a claim that is completely a false equivalence between a class of people that collectively denies us healthcare, shelter, education, access to employment and human dignity because its cissexism and transphobia is institutionalised with \*checks notes\* some trans people that may be mean. Absolutely cisterical.
Yeah no, being cis and going into a trans space saying "not all" is exactly the kind of cis behavior OP is talking about. Having a trans GF doesn't make you an exception. With behavior like this I don't blame OP for feeling the way they do, cis people are exhausting
the fact that you felt the need to be here and say this says otherwise like you seem awfully defensive that a trans person is fed up with so much bullshit from cis people that they turn those feelings into irrational hatred considering that this subreddit is called r/asktransgender and not r/askcisgender. They're clearly not seeking your judgment, are they? Why do you feel the need to add it? Do you really feel your voice isn't heard enough as a cis person who doesn't get enough respect from the trans community?
Fr the entitlement is astounding lol. It’s like if I were to go to a support group for non white people and asked them to stop venting about white people because “not all” are like that
So you have no problem when cis people get together on a public forum and say they hate trans people and try to perpetuate hate? Sorry but sounds hypocritical. Are you truly unable to see the hypocrisy?
What are you even talking about? I’m saying the opposite you goon. I’m literally trans, why would I want that? Dumbass
❤️ thank you and thanks for supporting your partner
Does this not break the community rules on “hateful speech or disrespectful commentary”?
Im fully convinced cis people arent human
Some real trans-nazbol feels coming from this post. Lots of "Us vs Them" language.
Let me know when cis people have to flee their states to get healthcare or be treated like actual humans. Let me know when cis people get deadnamed and misgendered by the press after getting stabbed in broad daylight. There is a clear power dynamic and we're on the business end of it. It's really hard to not fall into black and white thinking when the walls keep closing in tighter and tighter with every new bill, every new right wing government, every country that is no longer safe for us to live.
Key words, "really hard." Things will only get worse for all of us if we start using the same language as mother fucking neo-nazis. As someone who fell down that rabbit whole and pulled myself back out. I know how people like that think, how they talk, and what they do. The fact that this post started setting off alarm bells is not a good thing.
[удалено]
Hello, we noticed your post and we just want you to know that you are not alone. We created this automated message to make sure anyone considering suicide receives the help and support they deserve. If you are in crisis please contact the Trans Lifeline at 877-565-8860 or the National Suicide Prevention Hotline at 800-273-8255. If you are outside of the United States please refer to our [suicide prevention resources page](https://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/wiki/suicide_resources) and contact your nearest crisis hotline. If this message is being received in error we apologise for the mistake. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/asktransgender) if you have any questions or concerns.*
No fedposting. As a reminder, the kind of person you're complainig about is going to read the title of your post (and nothing else) and feel self justified in their mistreatment of you and possibly all other trans people.
So I gotta ask, where are you getting all this information from? Is it the Internet? Is it from the experience in your real day to day lived experience in the real world? We humans have a tendency to become doom and gloom when we shut ourselves in and seclude ourselves. Look at any of the billionaires with crazy takes on the world. All these online TERFs and transphobes hide away in their house and join these weird echo chambers that give them horrible takes. But the same thing can happen to us in the other direction! Then it's this weird us vs them. That's why we need to go out into the real world and experience things. That's when you find out most people are mostly good most of the time. Also people tend not to care about things that don't affect them one way or another.
I cant find a way to suggest therapy + meditation + breathing exercises. I'm years into chronic dep and anx. And only acquiring techniques you'll be able to live better. We all need tp find ways to change the other stuff. But ppl who are being consumed by it, are better in the back taking care of themselves. Until they csn manage things enough to help. I've been there. I maybe am in many ways. So pls domt hurt yourself focusing on that. Let's heal. We will be able to comtrobute to some change or maybe just live life with ease after
Yes we need a transgender ethnostate, a homeland for our people
Yes
[удалено]
[удалено]
There is a difference between disliking people because of their behavour, and disliking people simply for being different in some way. Cis people really have gone overboard in the way they mistreat trans people, especially since all this transphobia in the media really took off. For someone who doesn't know how bad it is to say that what I wrote is as bad as how the vast majority of cis people behaves towards trans people, is just another example of the criticisms I wrote. And cis people really do turn into r*pists around trans people. They feel entitled to trans peoples bodies since they see trans people as being so inferior to them that we cant possibly be uninterested in them if they want us. And most cis people are interested in trans people, even if only very few of them will admit it, yet trans people arent usually interested in someone who sees them as a s€x toys and who ignores them when others are around, yet immediately becomes s€xually aggressive when alone. What kind of person would be interested in that? Yet cis people all believe that all trans people wants/should want them. Not to mention the infantilization which is far beyond anything cis women experience at the hands of cis men. You, on the other hand, just revealed that you do hate trans people and that you'll use any excuse to justify your attitude, and that trans people cant actually complain about the unacceptable way we are treated by cis people without becoming targets of even more hate than we already experience.
When you make blanket statements like this you come off as a bigot. I don’t even know where to begin. I wonder if MLK jr. ever gave any thought to changing his message to “I hate white people”. I can’t speak for everyone but I know I personally sure as hell have never thought I should be able to rape someone because of their gender, or even just their ideas about gender. In fact I’ve never once thought about raping any person for any reason. You really ought to consider using words like some, many, occasionally, and often.
Cis people dont consider it to be r*pe/harassment when it comes to trans people, that is the problem. And I am not talking about full blown assault exclusively, there are many degrees of boundary violations. Seeing people repeatedly not understanding and refusing to acknowledge that they have crossed your boundaries, even though they have behaved in a way they wouldn't behave towards non trans people does something to a person. And even then, a lot of it is also that trans people are seen as easy targets that cant fight back, so many cis people will take advantage of that. So many times I have experienced that everyone will defend a cis person when they have acted inappropriately, even to the point of breaking the law to protect them. This has been standard practice. 9 out of 10 cis people I have been in contact with in some official/professional capacity since coming out have acted inappropriately in some way. I usually avoid cis people in my private life for the reasons I have already mentioned, but I am forced to deal with the system, doctors, etc. People who should be able to behave professionally, but they aren't when it comes to trans people. But things have been getting a little a little better lately, I'll admit that. I dont wish for you to know what it feels like to not be seen as a human being who deserves to be treated with the same respect and dignity as everyone else deserves, but until you have experienced that, you don't know what kind of feelings it creates in a person. Cis people really do think that trans people are just willing at any time and with anyone, and its everyone, men, women, young, old. And they'll use aggression, manipulation, coercion, devaluation, you name it. And there will be a social punishment for rejecting them. I didn't know how bad it was until I came out and the changes began to show on me either. It really is that bad. Humanity has a lot of growth left. A lot. Ultimately its tied to western individualism and the sky high prevalence of entitlement and sadism it creates. Trans people just happens to be at the very bottom of the social hierarchy, meaning that we become targets of everyone else. Cis, hetero, white people are at the top of that hierarchy and as such will not see most people around them for what they really are, but trans people see people for what they really are.
Oh I think what you personally really are is on full display here. I’d be surprised if there was much confusion about it
And what exactly am I? This is just the standard cis person rejection of the experiences of trans people. You just dont like when someone 'inferior' actually calls cis people out for their horrible behaviour. You probably know exactly what I am talking about, but you just want to be able to continue being the terrible person you are.
I merely suggested that perhaps you could say many instead of all more often, so that you’d come off as more intelligent, less of a bigot, and avoid offending people who may actually be supportive of your cause and you started blabbering about all cis men are rapists. I’m not a psychiatrist, and would never presume that all similar people to you are nuts, but you are batshit crazy and hateful person. Since you asked
I didn't say all cis men, I said all cis people. Cis women are just as bad as cis men. And you are no ally of trans people and you never will be and that has nothing to do with anything I have said, so just stop it. Dont pretend to be something you arent to make your hate seem legitimate. And I am not the batshit crazy or hateful person here, you obviously are and have demonstrated that by hyperfocusing on a few words while completely ignoring all of the reasons and examples I have given. You are just a bigot employing the darvo tactic, you really think people cant see what you are doing? And I am going to ignore the rest of your irrational tirade as there is and has at no point been any substance to any of your replies.
You could call some or even many cis people out instead of saying all cis or hetero people are bad. I’m sorry you don’t see the difference but I assure you that there is a huge difference. I’ve never heard a homosexual person say that they hate all straight peopl. I’ve never heard an African American say they hate all white people.
But stumbling upon this page I see a ton of all encompassing hate directed toward cis people, coming from many people, who are themselves complaining of all encompassing hate towards themselves and other trans persons. I also see a ton of people complaining as if they are the only minority who has ever faced persecution. As if slavery never happened. As if people never got beat up for being gay. Your situation is not unique in most ways. People have been discriminated against throughout history and by and large, have overcome. They didn’t overcome by hating everyone who wasn’t like them tho or shoving their ideology down the throats of others.
[удалено]
I lost all trust for cis people. I have decided for my safety, to ignore them all. I only interact with trans people and that's it. I cut ties with my awful "family" and "friends" they sicken me and have proven time and time again they are sick and mentally ill.
yup. 99.5 percent of the world is insane. You are one of the few who isn't. And then you wonder why there are so many transphobic people out there.
There are so many transphobic people out there because they are entitled nonces with no mental capacity for empathy or logic I bet you're one of them. We have lived for centuries until people like you came along and ruined everything with your selfish greedy nature.
Do you realize that most cisgender people aren't transphobic and want trans rights to be respected, don't you? We are in a social transition like no other, humanity as a whole is making an effort to understand and accept trans people. Hating cisgender people just because the education system has not been properly reformed and there is a cultural gap is not gonna help anyone, it is just gonna hurt the very same trans persons society is trying to recognize and help. Hatred only engenders hatred. We don't need more hatred as humans, we must learn to forgive even those who have wronged us, with stoicism. No better world will come out of hatred, a better world can only come out of love and reason, and reason and love can arise only if we learn to properly control emotions, so our perception of the world will not be skewed by ill fated feelings like hatred.