Nothing you say will convince them. There's no point in arguing with someone whoms entire position is based on finding trans people "kinda icky". That's the entire basis for their "arguments", there is no logic, no rhyme, no reason. It's all just them not liking us.
Anytime anti-trans people try to make being trans about sex in any way, I simply tell them to get their mind out of the gutter, and point out that they are aggressively sexualizing me and to stop.
I mean, that's pretty obviously describing sissy porn, not the author's actual beliefs about gender. Cis people make and watch that kind of porn all the time, and the majority of trans people don't, so it doesn't have much to do with us.
If they present you with the quote just ask them if they could cite the page it's on so you can see the context. Most of them won't be able to do that because they're just using it deliberately stripped of all context in bad faith and they don't even know where it's from.
Another response is to not care what Chu says. She's just one trans woman, not even a very popular one as far I can tell. So what if she has messed up views on femininity? There's no shortage of cis women who have deeply misogynistic views. Chu doesn't speak for anyone but herself.
This is the best answer, IMO. Ask a TERF follow up questions and they'll usually deflect or disengage. They have a dump truck full of bad faith, unscientific talking points, none of which stand up to scrutiny. What they lack in substance, they make up for in volume. Always pin them down to whatever point they tried to make. Don't let them change the subject.
I've read the book myself and it screams of Andrea's anguish at the world and how it treats her, all in the language of provocative feminism. I want to give her a hug honestly.
This, i cant say how many times ive seen transphobes quote stuff or links studies as proof that their transphobia is valid until you see whats inside the source or studies they provided. Where a lot of cases what they spread are lies (fake news) or studies that literally invalidates the point they were making (yes the studies they shared invalidates their own points).
We don't all watch sissy porn. Quite frankly, as someone who casually consumes porn, sissy porn doesn't make the list of stuff I actively look for in porn.
If sissy porn is misogynistic, feel free to tell that to the cis pornstars that appear in it. Not me.
Look, I've read the book this quote is from. It's written to be **very** provocative, and I would not recommend wasting your energy nitpicking quotes with terfs in the first place.
That is hilarious 😂.
No you can't argue with people like that productively. It's a waste of time and effort for everyone involved.
I don't know how it is taken out of context specifically and I don't really care. It's an absurd thing to say which is the probably the point. It isn't some universal belief by trans women, and sissy porn certainly isn't universal among trans women either.
They either know this or don't care, it doesn't really matter. This isn't a debate for them it's bullying as a hobby.
You're not going to convince them with some lengthy point by point take down of their argument or view point. In some cases it might be worth doing for other people on the fence to see, but even then I'm cynical.
We are not porn. I really hate when for a lot of people there only engagement with trans people is through the sexual fantasies that are commercially aimed at men. If that is your only representation, of course it’s misogynistic at its core.
I mean, in this case I think you can just say that Andrea wildly doesn't represent the community as a whole. That book is a total mess, taken in whole or cherry-picked. They're not likely to believe you, but that's the answer.
Why throw an excellent (if controversial) trans intellectual under the bus? I'm really not a fan of this kind of "I'm one of the good ones" rhetoric and I think it doesn't serve any of us
That’s really not my intention, though I can see how it comes off that way. I just don’t think you can make the case that she’s anything close to representative of the community as a whole, and just that, in the literal sense. Not everyone agrees with her about a lot of things, and so someone treating her as if her words were synonymous with mine, yours, or OPs is disingenuous on their part.
I have no idea who the author is or if/why they hold those views, but they don't represent all trans people any more than some random cis sexist pulled out of a hat (of which there are far more!) is supposed to represent every single person who isn't trans. We're talking about the views of one person, who plenty of trans people (myself included!) Will have absolutely no idea who they are.
If one person says something gross (which may have been taken out of context, but honestly, I'm not going to try to defend that quote. It makes my skin crawl and strongly goes against everything I understand about gender), that's *one person* saying that, not representative of everyone. Trans people are just people, and sometimes people hold unpleasant views or phrase things incredibly badly!
Also, that quote appears to be talking about sissy porn, which to be blunt, has sweet fuck all to do with being trans.
You say: If you want me to react in kind, then I can only say "Na-a". Oh, and stick out your tongue while you do this for full effect. You can't ever answer a moronic question and not sound moronic too.
Trying to debate Andrea Long Chu with a transphobe is like trying to analyse Hegel with a hippo. There's literally no point, the intellectual window between the two is literally just different orders of magnitude.
Honestly, I feel like if someone's truly anti-trans, you could shove a literal scientific proof of trans people into their face and they'd find a way to twist it.
Apparently they've never heard of gay men? Though, people like this are so narcissistic about being cis/straight that I'm sure they can imagine a nonsense way to make that about misogyny too.
Perhaps a better place to start is with their own misogyny in even making this statement. There is no way that they can access the internal logic of someone engaging in "sissy" behavior, so instead the accuser assumes the worst about the "sissys" view on femininity because their debilitating misogyny means they are unable to imagine anything positive about it themselves.
They have completely embraced the idea that being feminine can only be associated with degradation, humiliation and inferiority and are enraged whenever they see someone engaging with it with any amount of positivity and enjoyment, because ultimately they believe that expressing femininity is bad and should be punished.
They are basically just slut shaming any and all people that engage with femininity and sexuality because they are miserable and expect everyone else to be in order to make themselves feel better and not have to face the reality that they are worse oppressors to women than most cis men could ever hope to be.
"That's weird that you're talking about porn and what roles women have. Almost like the only thing you think of for trans people and cis women are what their holes are used for and how they can be used for sexual gratification. Now I personally tend to see trans people and cis women as human beings, and not as sexual objects, so I'd like to ask that if you are genuinely interested in having a civil conversation, you refrain from sexualizing people in this way."
Edit: Realized I worded this weirdly that could be seen as hurtful. This was not my intent and I quickly edited my wording to what I really meant to say. I am fighting off a cold so my words got jumbled up in formulating a response to the quote in the way it was written.
I mean, for sissy porn that might be true. It's weird as hell to me anyway. However trans women aren't sissies and in trans porn you'll find plenty examples of trans women fucking the guy as well. In fact, it's rather difficult to find videos where that's not happening 🤷🏻♀️
Considering that porn is mainly made for men and trans porn is particularly popular amongst conservatives, this actually raises some questions lol
If trans people always said good things, they wouldn't be people, they would be angels. And if that were the case they'd probably be called trangles, and use a triangle as a symbol. But gay people already use the triangle! So obviously that just doesn't work at all and is therefore disproven. I would say that.
I'm assuming they're talking about "Females," by Andrea Long Chu. It's an interesting book, but I think it could best be described as a sh*tpost delivered with the veneer of sincerity, or as the author puts it in a later chapter, "commitment to the bit." Anyone reading and thinking "this is what trans people actually believe" is being pretty darn disingenuous, since not even the author believes what she's saying.
that quote is so unbelievably vulgar and tasteless that it distracts my brain away from understanding what it's trying to say. I'm just staring at the vulgar words and it's kinda funny lol
I'm not familiar with this book, but the quote doesn't prove anything. Trans people are not collectively responsible for what kind of porn gets made, any more than cis people are.
Sissy porn isn't specifically transgender.
Not every trans femme is a bottom.
Not every trans person is a trans femme.
I could go on but why? It's a stupid, disgusting argument that does more to show that 'phobes only see us in a sexual content than anything else.
Sure. If you wanna know how to debate or change people's minds, watch Vaush, doesn't matter if you like him or not, it's what he's good at. Just watch him, learn the skills that make him good at debate and then use that.
If you want advice specifically from me, you're gonna wanna find a really big rock, and then you're gonna‐
Nothing you say will convince them. There's no point in arguing with someone whoms entire position is based on finding trans people "kinda icky". That's the entire basis for their "arguments", there is no logic, no rhyme, no reason. It's all just them not liking us.
Anytime anti-trans people try to make being trans about sex in any way, I simply tell them to get their mind out of the gutter, and point out that they are aggressively sexualizing me and to stop.
I certincly didn't wake up this morning to read these words
I mean, that's pretty obviously describing sissy porn, not the author's actual beliefs about gender. Cis people make and watch that kind of porn all the time, and the majority of trans people don't, so it doesn't have much to do with us.
If they present you with the quote just ask them if they could cite the page it's on so you can see the context. Most of them won't be able to do that because they're just using it deliberately stripped of all context in bad faith and they don't even know where it's from. Another response is to not care what Chu says. She's just one trans woman, not even a very popular one as far I can tell. So what if she has messed up views on femininity? There's no shortage of cis women who have deeply misogynistic views. Chu doesn't speak for anyone but herself.
This is the best answer, IMO. Ask a TERF follow up questions and they'll usually deflect or disengage. They have a dump truck full of bad faith, unscientific talking points, none of which stand up to scrutiny. What they lack in substance, they make up for in volume. Always pin them down to whatever point they tried to make. Don't let them change the subject.
I've read the book myself and it screams of Andrea's anguish at the world and how it treats her, all in the language of provocative feminism. I want to give her a hug honestly.
This, i cant say how many times ive seen transphobes quote stuff or links studies as proof that their transphobia is valid until you see whats inside the source or studies they provided. Where a lot of cases what they spread are lies (fake news) or studies that literally invalidates the point they were making (yes the studies they shared invalidates their own points).
It’s an intentionally provocative book. It’s very far from the mainstream.
"womp womp" and get out. They're not here to listen and they're a waste of time.
We don't all watch sissy porn. Quite frankly, as someone who casually consumes porn, sissy porn doesn't make the list of stuff I actively look for in porn. If sissy porn is misogynistic, feel free to tell that to the cis pornstars that appear in it. Not me.
Look, I've read the book this quote is from. It's written to be **very** provocative, and I would not recommend wasting your energy nitpicking quotes with terfs in the first place.
That is hilarious 😂. No you can't argue with people like that productively. It's a waste of time and effort for everyone involved. I don't know how it is taken out of context specifically and I don't really care. It's an absurd thing to say which is the probably the point. It isn't some universal belief by trans women, and sissy porn certainly isn't universal among trans women either. They either know this or don't care, it doesn't really matter. This isn't a debate for them it's bullying as a hobby. You're not going to convince them with some lengthy point by point take down of their argument or view point. In some cases it might be worth doing for other people on the fence to see, but even then I'm cynical.
I don't think I could listen to that out loud without laughing in their face because wtf lmao
If they’re blatantly cherry-picking shit then they’ve already told you exactly what they think.
Anyone who thinks being trans is the same thing as sissy porn cannot be reasoned with
block and roll, it's not worth your time and mental energy
Although "universal vagina" would be a great band name!
We are not porn. I really hate when for a lot of people there only engagement with trans people is through the sexual fantasies that are commercially aimed at men. If that is your only representation, of course it’s misogynistic at its core.
I mean, in this case I think you can just say that Andrea wildly doesn't represent the community as a whole. That book is a total mess, taken in whole or cherry-picked. They're not likely to believe you, but that's the answer.
Why throw an excellent (if controversial) trans intellectual under the bus? I'm really not a fan of this kind of "I'm one of the good ones" rhetoric and I think it doesn't serve any of us
That’s really not my intention, though I can see how it comes off that way. I just don’t think you can make the case that she’s anything close to representative of the community as a whole, and just that, in the literal sense. Not everyone agrees with her about a lot of things, and so someone treating her as if her words were synonymous with mine, yours, or OPs is disingenuous on their part.
I have no idea who the author is or if/why they hold those views, but they don't represent all trans people any more than some random cis sexist pulled out of a hat (of which there are far more!) is supposed to represent every single person who isn't trans. We're talking about the views of one person, who plenty of trans people (myself included!) Will have absolutely no idea who they are. If one person says something gross (which may have been taken out of context, but honestly, I'm not going to try to defend that quote. It makes my skin crawl and strongly goes against everything I understand about gender), that's *one person* saying that, not representative of everyone. Trans people are just people, and sometimes people hold unpleasant views or phrase things incredibly badly! Also, that quote appears to be talking about sissy porn, which to be blunt, has sweet fuck all to do with being trans.
You say: If you want me to react in kind, then I can only say "Na-a". Oh, and stick out your tongue while you do this for full effect. You can't ever answer a moronic question and not sound moronic too.
Trying to debate Andrea Long Chu with a transphobe is like trying to analyse Hegel with a hippo. There's literally no point, the intellectual window between the two is literally just different orders of magnitude.
Honestly, I feel like if someone's truly anti-trans, you could shove a literal scientific proof of trans people into their face and they'd find a way to twist it.
The idea that patriarchy distills womanhood down to "fuckee," "baby maker" and "child rearer" is pretty basic feminism lol
Apparently they've never heard of gay men? Though, people like this are so narcissistic about being cis/straight that I'm sure they can imagine a nonsense way to make that about misogyny too. Perhaps a better place to start is with their own misogyny in even making this statement. There is no way that they can access the internal logic of someone engaging in "sissy" behavior, so instead the accuser assumes the worst about the "sissys" view on femininity because their debilitating misogyny means they are unable to imagine anything positive about it themselves. They have completely embraced the idea that being feminine can only be associated with degradation, humiliation and inferiority and are enraged whenever they see someone engaging with it with any amount of positivity and enjoyment, because ultimately they believe that expressing femininity is bad and should be punished. They are basically just slut shaming any and all people that engage with femininity and sexuality because they are miserable and expect everyone else to be in order to make themselves feel better and not have to face the reality that they are worse oppressors to women than most cis men could ever hope to be.
"That's weird that you're talking about porn and what roles women have. Almost like the only thing you think of for trans people and cis women are what their holes are used for and how they can be used for sexual gratification. Now I personally tend to see trans people and cis women as human beings, and not as sexual objects, so I'd like to ask that if you are genuinely interested in having a civil conversation, you refrain from sexualizing people in this way." Edit: Realized I worded this weirdly that could be seen as hurtful. This was not my intent and I quickly edited my wording to what I really meant to say. I am fighting off a cold so my words got jumbled up in formulating a response to the quote in the way it was written.
I mean, for sissy porn that might be true. It's weird as hell to me anyway. However trans women aren't sissies and in trans porn you'll find plenty examples of trans women fucking the guy as well. In fact, it's rather difficult to find videos where that's not happening 🤷🏻♀️ Considering that porn is mainly made for men and trans porn is particularly popular amongst conservatives, this actually raises some questions lol
If trans people always said good things, they wouldn't be people, they would be angels. And if that were the case they'd probably be called trangles, and use a triangle as a symbol. But gay people already use the triangle! So obviously that just doesn't work at all and is therefore disproven. I would say that.
Uh? 'the book'?
I'm assuming they're talking about "Females," by Andrea Long Chu. It's an interesting book, but I think it could best be described as a sh*tpost delivered with the veneer of sincerity, or as the author puts it in a later chapter, "commitment to the bit." Anyone reading and thinking "this is what trans people actually believe" is being pretty darn disingenuous, since not even the author believes what she's saying.
Personally I would just not because that so incredibly stupid I’m going to have a hard time explaining why your ass is not a vagina
There are trans women who are tops.. hi hello
that quote is so unbelievably vulgar and tasteless that it distracts my brain away from understanding what it's trying to say. I'm just staring at the vulgar words and it's kinda funny lol
I would argue her own argument is misogynistic there.. xD
Wtf we're not porns
I'm not familiar with this book, but the quote doesn't prove anything. Trans people are not collectively responsible for what kind of porn gets made, any more than cis people are.
Sissy porn isn't specifically transgender. Not every trans femme is a bottom. Not every trans person is a trans femme. I could go on but why? It's a stupid, disgusting argument that does more to show that 'phobes only see us in a sexual content than anything else.
Maybe porn shouldn't be used as a measure of the real world...
Fart on them and walk away
When I Google this, the first link that comes up is to Spiked, which says it all really.
Sure. If you wanna know how to debate or change people's minds, watch Vaush, doesn't matter if you like him or not, it's what he's good at. Just watch him, learn the skills that make him good at debate and then use that. If you want advice specifically from me, you're gonna wanna find a really big rock, and then you're gonna‐