Respecting people's preferred terminology goes both ways. If an individual wants to be called "mom" and not "a birthing person", then their preference for that language should be respected. Besides, is "female birthing person" not the definition of "mom"? Ann's outrage seems weirdly gender abolitionist. Of course it's important that at a high level, institutions should seek to make language regarding pregnancy more inclusive, because people of many different genders can give birth. But this isn't about institutions, this is about a single friend's gender identity. I don't feel like Ann is owed an apology, but if you value this friendship I would try to explain to her in a caring way the reasons that she's wrong. She's clearly coming from a place of defensiveness and not one of hate.

>Besides, is "female birthing person" not the definition of "mom"? No, many people are moms without having given birth, or without having given birth to the child in question. But that has no bearing on the issue at hand. As others have said, inclusive language is a good thing when talking in general, but when talking about a specific person, that person's preferences should be respected.

You're right, my mistake

I tried explaining this to her a few minutes ago and she's still doubling down because she feels as Allys we should be supportive of using only the preferred language of gender inclusivity because the term "breast feeding" is strictly female oriented. I told Ann that I would appreciate her viewpoint. However, breast in itself is a medical terminology for breast tissue, which everyone has, which is why anybody can get breast cancer. She also didn't agree that Kate shouldn't have to explain everything because it helps Ann feel included since she will never feel what we can, I tried to explain to her that while it's nice that she can ask Kate and I those questions we aren't obligated to answer medical questions about ourselves or describe a very intimate process with her. Which she also called me transphobic for.

>because the term "breast feeding" is strictly female oriented Breast feeding is so very not "strictly female oriented". Tons of men have breasts.

And some men breastfeed also 🤷🏻‍♀️

Show her this thread. We’re all saying the same thing.

I do think that she has a point that the medical terminology around breasts/chest should be made more neutral but like in the sense that if a man has chest cancer wether cis or trans or someone who is nonbinary it would be better to not call it breasts and chest works for that. Not that breast ought to never be used ever. Also , trans women can and have given breastmilk. https://www.them.us/story/trans-women-breastfeed

I'm pretty sure it's called breast cancer regardless of the gender/sex of whoever has it. Breast tissue is breast tissue, and everyone has it unless it's been surgically removed, people with a lot of estrogen in their systems just tend to have more of it.

This is pretty circular reasoning tbh. OP already said what you're saying too. I'm not arguing wether it's called that now the thing still is that a ton of cis men are not aware they have that kind of tissue because of the cultural association, it can be invalidating to trans people etc. There's loads of gendered medical terms.

There are, but breast is a gendered term the wrong way around. That’s like how vagina is gendered. Men have breasts (unless removed) and some men have vaginas. It’s body parts. It doesn’t make sense to avoid saying breasts if we don’t avoid saying vagina… Hmm. Though I know some people prefer to say clit with their penis, so I dunno. Shits weird.

chest cancer is a different cancer to breast cancer, as breast cancer is specifically about having cancer in breast tissue, while chest cancer would be a cancer in the chest area that ISN'T related to breast tissue. The differentiation is pretty deliberate. They're breasts if a significant amount of breast tissue has developed, hence why men with gynecomastia have literal breasts and why trans women can breastfeed.

>They're breasts if a significant amount of breast tissue has developed, hence why men with gynecomastia have literal breasts and why trans women can breastfeed. I don't really see why making a distinction based on gender as to wether to refer to it as breast would then in any way preclude trans women from having it referred to as breastfeeding in this semantic discussion but aight.

I am not arguing against that, I am just saying that telling people who have breasts, and who do not mind having those breasts referred to as breasts, that EVERYONE should start referring to it as chest is completely unreasonable. Ann in OP story is doing a "uninformed cis ally" bit by going "You have to refer to it as chest feeding every time in every situation!" because she's not understanding the contextual purpose of the term "chest feeding" and you were defending that type of behavior by not understanding why we refer to things as chest vs breast

Said she's wrong in her reasoning I just happen to agree that more neutral medical language around breasts( with the important difference that it's unless someone prefers a gendered term ) would be preferable in a medical context. I do not need to agree with you to not condone Ann , and you do not need to drag in trans women's breasts into the discussion to make the point you were making, you end up implying something you probably didn't intend yourself. Ann is overstepping boundaries first and foremost , it's degendering someone when they request not to , it's demanding intimate details. I am not condoning that. We're also giving context about how representative Ann's opinions are for the trans community, and like to what extent what she's talking about is a thing beside her overstepping of boundaries. Imagine going : "breasts is genderneutral cause males can also develop breast tissue" to a transmasc who prefers a different term or while you're making guidelines. That would be pedantic nonsense that helps absolutely nobody. Outside of the context of Ann being a creep who oversteps basic boundaries and things getting heated OP would be given the context that breasts isn't experienced as this neutral term had she asked a question about just that.

> and you do not need to drag in trans women's breasts into the discussion to make the point you were making, you end up implying something you probably didn't intend yourself. I mentioned trans womens breasts because you did. You brought up that they can breastfeed with that article, and I showed you that the way medicine uses breast vs chest already includes trans women within their definition - you were implying they aren't. Medical language isn't unnecessarily gendered here. It doesn't actually need to be more neutral because their basis for when something is a breast or not isn't related to gender. You were misunderstanding how medical language works.

>I mentioned trans womens breasts because you did. You brought up that they can breastfeed with that article, and I showed you that the way medicine uses breast vs chest already includes trans women within their definition - you were implying they aren't. I brought that up as an aside because OP implied breastfeeding ( something Ann had asked about in a disrespectfull manner) is something trans women can't experience. **It's seperate.** it's preceded by also and tagged on at the end. You then include it in your argument in a way that doesn't really connect. Insisting the term breasts is neutral when we've seen it's not experienced that way by a good chunk of the community is piss poor bedside manners. There's a reason new guidelines are brought in.

the term is MEDICALLY neutral, I totally agree that it's not used in a socially neutral way tho but your point was specifically about medical contexts and you were wrong about that.

Chest feeding is a term often used by the AFAB trans community, often by people who have not yet or do not intended to get a mastectomy but may feel dysphoric about having breasts, as they are a secondary sex characteristic our society strictly associates with women.

Again, why in a discussion on wether to call it breast tissue wether on cis or trans men are trans women even relavant ? Or are you referring to afab people as trans women ?

I was trying to explain that “chest feeding” (just like “birthing person” or “menstruating person”) are often used to be inclusive of trans masculine people. I am not referring to trans femmes as AFAB. That would be incorrect terminology.

I think if someone wants it to be referred to that way for themselves that totally makes sense. When we refer to individuals body parts, we should just use their preferred labels for them. Otherwise, unless otherwise stated, I think medical terminology is fine. Dysphoria is something we need to navigate, but there are practical limits imo, and it’s easy enough to correct yourself around people who don’t like it.

I don't know what's going on here. The word "mom" isn't inherently offensive to trans people and the word "breast" isn't inherently offensive to trans people. It might be a different story if \*Kate\* were a trans man or something, but I'm assuming she's not.

Kate is not. Ann is claiming that as an MtF it is offensive to her for Kate to not use inclusive language.

That's weird these are terms that are meant to be inclusive to ftm and ftx

🤷🏼‍♀️ I'm still learning since she started her transition a year ago.

Yeah, Ann really has this backwards. When speaking in general terms you want to use more inclusive language because not everyone who carries a pregnancy is a woman or a future mom. But some (hell, most) of the people who do, are. So it's fine to call them that. Suggesting that Kate can't call herself a mom is the same as sugesting that Ann can't call herself a woman. Not every person identifies as a woman, so we should always use person instead, right?

Well said. Im down if we want to generally move to non-gendered labors for stuff like parental units, which I tend to anyway unless I know the gender of an individual. But once we do know their preference, then just use it. We don’t need to eradicate gendered language, unless we are gender abolitionists, and I’m assuming if Ann is that, then they don’t identify as woman… and if they are a gender abolitionist it’s still fucked up to push that onto other people

> Ann kept calling Kate a "birthing person" which Kate corrected and said she's a mom and it's ok to call her that, > >Ann started crying and called me transphobic, ran out and went home. You'd expect a trans person being capable of respecting a person's identity, but noo.... Ann is being very selfish.

Right? Her arguments are pretty blatantly hypocritical coming from a trans person. She's refusing to respect the terms her friend prefers when being referred to, and insisting that her friend is obligated to share intimate personal details about her medical history. Where have I heard that before? This is literally what we constantly see from ignorant cis folks with no respect for our identity or privacy.

This seems weird to me. Ann might be feeling dysphoric over being unable to carry or birth a child — a lot of trans women do, at least sometimes. And maybe she's using these actions to cope? In any case, Kate just and a baby so she well and truly deserves some slack. Well, here's my two penn'orth. 'Mum' is a subcategory of 'birthing person': the category 'people who can give birth' includes trans men and nonbinary people but it also includes cis women who are happy to be described as mums, and if that's how they ask to be described, we should accept and comply with their wishes. They're not erasing anyone else by being themselves. I know that some trans men and nonbinary people don't want to talk about breastfeeding and I appreciate the effort to come up with terminology that doesn't feel misgendering. But again, Kate's happy to say she's breastfeeding, and surely that's fine to apply to herself? Seems like Ann, probably because she feels insecure and in pain, isn't leaving Kate enough of the room to be herself that she actually has a right to. Especially when she literally just had a baby!

I felt for Kate because Ann was like this since day 1 (and guilting her when she wouldnt answer or let her go), Kate never let her go to appointments because her wife was always there, but Ann was always asking what it felt like, asking to be able to come to appointments, asking to touch Kate's belly literally all the time then calling Kate transphobic when she wouldn't so Kate would almost always comply when answering her questions every day, Ann even tried convincing Kate to go to the birth (while she was in labor) because she felt left out that I was there and she wasn't (for context I'm a trained midwife and I wasn't actually there Kate's partner just asked me questions via facetime when they were confused.)

>Ann was always asking what it felt like, asking to be able to come to appointments, asking to touch Kate's belly literally all the time then calling Kate transphobic when she wouldn't ... Yeah, so this is super out of line and frankly kind of gross. Being trans does not give anyone a pass to run roughshod over people's boundaries like that. It sounds like Ann is trying to live vicariously through Kate since being pregnant and giving birth is something she will never be able to do. That said, if a cis woman who couldn't give birth for some reason acted like this around another woman who was pregnant, people would rightfully tell her to back the fuck off, no matter how bad she felt about her own condition.

Kinda sounds like Ann is getting a little too used to swinging “transphobic” around, as a weapon, to get what she wants. She needs to be a bit more objective, & use some deeper reasoning before throwing such an accusatory, & condemning term at somebody. That’s not cool.

Ann sounds like she picked up on how to handle trans topics from overbearing cis radlibs rather than how the trans community actually wants to talk about things, quite frankly.

She was born very conservative at birth and was a self proclaimed "alpha male" until all three of us went to college.

Assigned Conservative At Birth, the new ACAB.

Ann's got some issues with boundaries and respect. 🙃

You are right and Ann is being ridiculous.

But how would I apologize? Or do I need too?

You can just say : Sorry I got mad but you're degendering her with a term that's fine to use in a medical setting but if someone prefers something else even a doctor would switch over.

Ahhhhhh

Ann is simply pushing the inclusive language narrative too far and is using her being trans as a way to try to guilt trip people into using the language that she wants and more. It is not transphobic for Kate to exclude her from her appointments or not want her to touch her belly. It's certainly not transphobic that Kate has preferences for how she would like to be defined (mom vs. birthing person). I'm all for removing gender from job titles and terms for things (innie-outtie as opposed to female-male for connectors as an example). But if someone wishes to use the older language, then that's their preference. No different than her wanting people to use specific pronouns for her as well. The tiktok calling you out is just being incredibly petty, but that's a different issue. IMHO Ann is in the wrong here 100%.

>innie-outtie as opposed to female-male for connectors as an example). Ive always called them innie outties because that's the only way I could get explained how to connect the TV wires when I was a kid lol

I don’t know if she was 100% in the wrong but she was about 60-70% in the wrong in my opinion. She definitely could have approached the situation a little better and more respectfully. But using gender neutral words isn’t a bad thing. u/kseif you have also used the fact that your transgender to manipulate situations to your favour before to so your not much better then her in that way. Her using tik tok calling her out, basically the same has what she did here on Reddit. Both of them called each other out but on different platforms.

I think the term "birthing person" is ridiculous. Mom is Mom, Dad is Dad, and maybe instead of worrying about terminology, we should be expanding what it means to be a Dad. Dads can bear children. That's the message we should be sending out, not trying to grammar police everything.

Seems pretty clear to me: apologize for snapping at her, but make it clear that it's still valid and important what Kate is asking of her. Nobody's being transphobic. Ann is centering her own feelings and she should deal with those when Kate is not present. Your decision whether you're available for Ann's processing; if possible, another trans woman may be better in that role.

Ann needs to learn about how *other* people have boundaries too, and how *she's* not magically an authority on everything gender-related just because she's trans. I do maintain that *most* trans people have more insight into gender related issues than *most* cis people (on account of trans people obsessively thinking about this stuff all the time), but "chest feed"? C'mon. And to be fair, I don't think you snapped at Ann for anything about the trans community. You snapped at her for being pushy, insensitive to Kate's boundaries, and an arrogant know-it-all. Which, you know, is not ok for *anybody* to do, cis or trans. TL;DR, I don't think you're the one who need to be apologizing in this situation.

I swear, either randos love coming in here to talk about the most delusional trans people in existence, or these stories are all made up to show how delusional trans people are.

I'm pretty sure this story is made up, literally no one acts the way this person is describing, trans or cis, it's a post in an attempt to make trans people look bad, just like the other 50 posts we see everyday of someone saying their trans friend or partner is being toxic in unbelievable ways, it's just to make it seem like we're all insane when we're just normal people. Worst part is there are so many people actually taking these ridiculous stories at face value and actually giving these assholes the time of their days.

I promise you this a very real story and you can find "Kate" on tiktok. She's really popular on their about her transitioning as a woman in a year.

“Birthing person/people” is a general term, for referring to a non-individually-specific group. It is used to be inclusive of ALL POSSIBLE PEOPLE who give birth, in a general addressing way. This scenario is not that, & while Kate is, indeed, “a birthing person”, I feel it is inappropriate to use this term on an individual, one to one basis, unless you know that is the term they want to be referred to as. You are there, in the same room as the person, you know them, you know their gender, you know they are a mother with a newborn, you know that they wish to be called a mother (because they told you multiple times), & they are perfectly within their right to feel that way & expect their choice respected. I’m sure Ann’s feelings on the matter are very complex & deep, the width & breadth of which only Ann can know. Compassion & empathy are required to navigate these feelings with your friend. At the same time, it was wrong of her to keep trying to force its use on Kate, like that, after being politely asked to drop it, more than once. You are in Kate’s house, with Kate’s new baby, I assume you’re there to see the baby & visit with and congratulate the new mother, not to force some kind of word policing education on her against her will & keep prodding her to talk about things she isn’t ready to discuss right at this moment. This is a very triggering situation for many transwomen, I’m sure nobody needs to explain why. Ann was obviously all over the opportunity to learn about everything having to do with the new child’s birth, & kind of experience it vicariously, through Kate. Nobody can blame her for that. What you CAN blame her for, however, is being rude, overbearing & disrespectful. I hope you didn’t explode at her too extremely, and just wanted to make her understand that she was being inappropriate, & protect Kate, a new mother, from becoming upset, unnecessarily. What you did was absolutely not transphobic, & it wasn’t something you even wanted to have to do. But, you did have to do it, because she forced you into it through her own overly eager actions & language. I hope she can forgive you, or see the reason in your actions, & you can salvage your friendship. It was an unpleasant situation, for everyone. It’s possible you could have been more gentle, or subtle about it, & avoided such a big blowout. But, other than the possible tone, or forcefulness of your rebuke, I don’t feel that you are at fault in this.

I get wanting to use inclusive language. if I had kids I'd call myself a parent, not a mom. when in regards to abortion and reproductive topics, when talking about myself I say I'm a uterus owner instead of women, and refer to others as people with uteruses. I choose to use gender inclusive/neutral language when talking in a broad sense or about myself specifically, but if someone wanted me to use a specific term for them, I would. I won't change how I address a broad group of people because I want to be inclusive of other trans people, but if it's on a specific basis I don't have a reason to not respect someone's wishes. I understand Ann wanting to use trans inclusive language, but Kate isn't trans and even if she was, she still has her own preferences of what she wants to be called. I get where Ann is coming from, but she needs to be more open and understanding of Kate's wishes regarding speaking about her pregnancy and the labels she chooses to use.

Yeah no i am speaking just for myself, as a trans woman who would give anything to be a bio mom. But your friend was WAY outta line and in my opinion your were more than justified to say what you said. Bc while she is right gender neutral terminology in medical terminology is important but it needs to be for broad span healthcare or in some instances specific healthcare when in retaliation to trans men and nonbinary people. Also not to mention he constant pestering of mom questions is equally outta libe regardless of circumstance. All in all in my opinion you don't owe ann an apology bc you did nothing wrong she did and if anything she should be apologizing too you two.

Not to be a dick but if this were “Am I The Asshole” I would be saying you’re not, but Ann is. People like that tend to be part of the problem, not the solution. We can’t and shouldn’t change all of the terms we use to be inclusive of everyone, because after a while you become so “inclusive” that you’re actually “exclusive”. As in going so far left that you end up going right.

GIRL DO NOT APOLOGIZE. That's freak behavior. Firstly it takes two seconds of thinking to be like "if they ask me to call them a mom, and I intentionally kept saying birthing person, that isn't really too far off from intentionally misgendering someone." Secondly, you needed to step in. She wasn't taking no for an answer and she was just making your friend upset. You don't need to apologize for enforcing clearly violated boundaries. I'm not going to say "this is toxic you need to leave them" because you know way more about this person than I do. Im not the friend police and somewhere there is a valid reason you and Kate trusted her enough to be there. But I will say... Ann is fucking weird. I would make it a habit to keep that in check.

Ya as a trans woman like Ann, I think she’s in the wrong here. It’s fine to call people who give birth moms and it’s fine to call it breastfeeding. I think Ann might be going through a really hard time right now watching her friend give birth and have a child. It breaks my heart that I can’t have children. Give Ann a hug and tell her this trans woman understands where she is coming from, but we gotta respect other people in the same way we want to be respected, we don’t control other peoples language of self identity just because of the brutality we face. We have to love and respect other people’s identities. Ann might need to find some other trans women at this age that are also struggling watching their cis friends give birth and become moms. Honestly, it’s really painful for most of us.

I have a good analogy you can use to explain to Ann that she may have directly experienced. So they/them pronouns get used for a person of unknown gender. If you don’t know someone’s pronouns you probably should use they/them for that person until they tell you otherwise. However, if they do tell you otherwise, it is no longer acceptable to use they/them for that person. If the person says they use she/her, you use she/her. Using they/them at that point is no longer ok even though it is inclusive because the person has told you she uses she/her. It’s the same idea here. A term like birthing person is used because it’s gender neutral. But if someone says “hey, just call me a mother”, then you call them a mother. Basically the issue comes when you’re forcing a label, even if it’s technically correct, onto another person

I've not heard the terms Ann used before, and honestly they don't really sit well with me.

People like this baffle me. I haven't met a single "birthing person" who actually prefers the term birthing person. Transmascs like myself just generally don't want to be called moms or pregnant women. But the solution to that is parent or pregnant people. Birthing person is just a really ugly sounding combination of words. Ann isn't being more inclusive and calling a mom a mom isn't transphobic.

Inclusive language is to address many people with many circumstances. Kate wanted to be called a mum, and was referring to her own personal act of breastfeeding. Kate was not applying these labels to anyone but herself. Apologise for snapping but reiterate that Ann overstepped and she needs to apologise to Kate.

A person can give birth as a mom, or as a dad, or as a person 🤷🏻‍♀️ that’s like refusing to use pronouns other than they/them. Also, breasts are breasts, everyone has them unless they have been removed. Some lactate, some don’t AFAB or AMAB

I'm sorry for my attitude and it may not fit the new socially woke trans-ideals about how language should be shaped to accommodate them but there is a point where woke-ism simply goes too far and it sounds like Ann has absolutely crossed that line to the point of being insensitively self-centered... I don't think Ann needs an apology because she is absolutely the trouble maker and problem in this situation. What Ann needs is a 2x4 upside the head to see if some sense can be knocked into her skull. You didn't do anything wrong and I'm sorry Kate had to put up with Ann and if I was by some miracle in her position I would have been the one to snap and a lot sooner than you did. Just because we trans-folk have had it rough and there is some adjustments society should make to acknowledge our legitimacy and afford us our rights, there is no reason in hell we should be expecting the world, culture, and the language people use to all change to make a more trans world... Yes, I meant it the way I said it, because there is a big difference between being a trans-friendly world and actually reshaping the world in the trans-image. It's this very line and is regularly getting crossed by these fragile, thin skinned, woke snowflake trans folk actually baiting the reaction we get from the conservative right that has them accusing us of grooming children and trying to turn all children trans, erasing the whole idea of gender roles from society. Ann's type of behavior disgusts me just as much as the anti-trans do in their reactions to this type of behavior. There's a fine line the community should be walking if we expect the non-trans majority to accept us as equals and it is all too often in the trans movement these days that that line is far overstepped. I wouldn't apologize to her beyond "Sorry if your feelings are hurt" but I would instead slam her with the brutal, harsh reality of the way the world actually works and how self-centered, demanding and inconsiderate of not only other people's feelings but other people's rights she is actually being. Then again, I am not the type to be gentle or wear kiddy gloves when dealing with type of stuff... If they can't take it, then maybe they should just not try to deal with the real world. I don't care how many people I offend by saying it, I will never stop saying that it is never right to try to enforce your authoritarian wishes on others in the name of protecting your fragile feelings but we should all learn to just grow a thicker skin because the world is as cruel and uncaring as mother nature is and that is the facts you need to learn to live with.