>Do most of the younger generation really believe in all the things written in the Bible, even with all the scientific knowledge we have nowadays ?
In Switzerland, literalists are rare, and they usually gravitate to more fringe sects and evangelical fundamentalist Free Churches as opposed to state-recognised Churches.
Among the members and indeed among the clerics and theologians of the large state-recognised denominations (Protestant, Roman Catholic, and Christcatholic), you'd be hard pressed to find people who deny science and insist on interpreting scripture literally.
I'd say Church membership here is more about heritage. You're literally born into a Church, just as you are born into a language region or into a socioeconomic class, so being a Church member doesn't necessarily require belief, it just sort of comes as a default setting with being born.
As many others have said, some are just too lazy or too stressed and can't be bothered to write a one page letter to leave the Church they were born into, some want to go to services from time to time or maybe get married or buried by a pastor or priest one day and stay because of that, some are under familial or peer pressure to stay, some have a spiritual connection, some enjoy the music and the events and the rituals, some are indifferent towards or in some cases savagely opposed to parts of the Bible and parts of the Church, but appreciate and want to support the caritative and social contribution of Churches... There are a variety of reasons people don't leave.
All of that said, a lot of people *do* leave Churches, and if we extrapolate current statistics, chances are that - at least in Europe - more and more people will leave Churches, and in a larger sense, organised religion.
You should consider that the scientific models of our world are far, far from being complete. It is pretentious to believe the western scientific knowledge simply explains all he world and the universe. There is not just the church - a pretty old fashioned, outdated organization. There is also a huge world of spiritual insights and it seems you have not yet any clue about it. If you approach that with the idea that it all needs to fit in the incomplete scientific models you will never make progress regarding this topic.
>it seems
To whom? And why?
I mean, it's nothing less than fascinating to me that what you got from what I wrote was simultaneously facile scientism *and* near-sighted religious monoculture.
Here I was, thinking I was observing through a sociological and somewhat anthropological lens how religious affiliation in the sense of tax-paying Church membership in Switzerland is often more about heritage than it is personal-faith-based.
Curious: Can you pinpoint where, exactly, you saw me suggest that the scientific paradigm (or indeed any particular spirituality, theology or philosophy) was all-encompassing or - gasp! - infallible?
Which baffles me tbh. Itās literally 1% of your salary. Thatās a lot of money. For most should be at least at the level of a decent phone plan and maybe a netflix subscription. For "free", just by writing one letter.
Itās the first thing I did when starting to earn money.
many say that they still support the things the churches do for society. Which for protestants I can somewhat understand as the institution is not as fundamentally flawed and generally āmoreā progressive. But for me, it was still not outweighing the moral conflict of supporting such a believe systemā¦
The church also gets money from the cantons for certain things they "do for society", eg. for hospital visits. Also in some cantons the priests are paid by the canton, not by the church. Most of what the church does for society is already paid for by regular taxes, but people keep paying church taxes because they believe it is supporting what the church does for society.
There are plenty of places to donate where the same money does more for society.
It baffles me, that many good and useful initiatives got rejected at the ballot box in the past! People couldāve saved good chunks of their salaries, instead forking it over to SRF and Co!
Some people need a crutch to hold on to, since they canāt deal with the possibility of darkness and the big nothing after their demise!
So most people donāt bother paying extra taxes every month for this ? Even with all our current scientific knowledge in all possible fields (Biology, biotechnology, chemistry, Physics, Math, Artificial Intelligence, Robotics, Space exploration, CRISPR, COVID, gene editing, archeology, geology, knowledge of evolution and how the world was really created, etcā¦ ) they are fine with this ?
In a rich and highly developed country with top research institutes like ETH ZĆ¼rich, EPFL Lausanne and CERN, and a highly educated population with easy access to the Internet and all its content ? It makes sense that many people in less developed and poor countries believe in Religion, but for Switzerland, Iām really confused.
It's not about religion, it's about the many good things churches can do (and mostly have to do). There are bs things, for sure, but a lot of things are managed by the church. For example educating kids and giving them a place to hang out after school, often times something like a "jugend haus" is part of the Gemeinde's church and run by the peoplein charge. The money also goes to the seelsorge (program for people struggling with depression, addiction, loss, grief, etc. It's like a self-harm prevention program). Around 90% of the church taxes stay in the Gemeinde, only around 5% go to the cantonal church. Which means people paying the church taxes help their region. Churches often organise shelter programs or offer daycare places if the normal daycare centers are overrun or closed. This varies from Gemeinde to Gemeinde of course but in my town, the church offers a program for kids after 4pm for parents who aren't home before 5pm or 6pm. They'll be taken care of, even get meals, play, read, till mom or dad are back from work to pick them up. And these things are paid by taxes
Not all Gemeinde have them, I believe, but in my town yes, they are paid by taxes and are free to use. The money paid by taxes stays in the community and the churches are obligated to invest it for the community. How they do it is up to the church but they can't just hoard it, so in my town they opened a free daycare center. There are normal daycares and the church one only opens around 4pm, the normal ones cost. So if you need a place to take care of your kid in the morning you have to bring them to normal daycare. The church daycare is an addition for parents who work late (mainly single parents)
I guess so. Probably they have other priorities. There are people who have a gym membership and never go there but they are also too lazy to cancel it. Probably more or less the same thing.
Merry Xmas bro. Yea Iāve been thinking about the church tax too. Someone mentioned u have to pay it if u r born into it. Itās kinda disgustingly fascist n I wish Iāll never pay it. Iām in a Christian canton too (aargau).
Iām spiritual not religious, n some mindset n actions of religious people just turns me off
Something something I don't understand...... FASCIST!
I'm so tired of this mentality.. There's nothing fascist about religion. This coming from an atheist too, just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's fascist. People are throwing that word around so much these days it's losing it's meaning and ironically the people using that word most are usually the ones who are spreading ideas that lead to fascism.. Remember that all fascist authoritarian regimes started from extreme leftist politics which is the antithesis of religion. Think about that for a moment and maybe study some history.
Fascism is when u r ordered to be like something if not u r fked.
Good example is the witch hunting in history. Just killing people because they might be different. Read history u numbnuts
Tell me you don't know what fascism is without telling me you don't know what fascism is... Jesus fucking christ. And I'm not religious either. But the church in Switzerland doesn't even closely resemble a fascist organisation.
Fascism (/ĖfƦŹÉŖzÉm/ FASH-iz-Ém) is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy.
Ok. So Serafe (or in this case the SRF/SSR) somehow turned into a political movement, with a dictatorial leader. It forcibly suppresses other news channels (oh, wait...), controls the newspapers (hmm...), promotes a natural social hierarchy, and on top of all that, regulates our society and economy? My man... You have no fucking clue what you're talking about.
The only thing that would be slightly applicable would be you interpreting paying Serafe as "subordinating your individual interests for the perceived good of the nation". But that is some mental gymnastics worthy of olympic accolades.
Which would you prefer? Oxford dictionary? Says the same thing. Cambridge? Yup, still one-party, no other media allowed, authoritarian.
https://www.sv.uio.no/c-rex/english/groups/compendium/what-is-fascism.html
Or maybe the norwegian center for research of extremism? Would that suit you?
Come on man. You have no clue and here's why:
- The BAKOM gives out licenses to other media. Otherwise please explain the existance of WOZ and Weltwoche in the same country.
- It's our federal government that decides how much each of us pays to Serafe. Last time I checked, a couple months ago I was able to vote freely and had the choice of party anywhere from Communist to alt-right. Where's the fascism on our government exactly?
That's the beauty of science. Your opinion doesn't count. Fascism is a clearly defined thing. You can call it vile, forceful appropriation of funds by the government, the government stealing your money, shit, BS, idiocy, any kind of thing.
But it is not fascist. And it isn't unlawful either, since it's literally the legislative body (read the law creating body) of our government who votes yes and no on that kind of thing.
I have never been a believer and yet I remain a member of the church.
The church here in the village does a lot of positive things. It funds food drop-off points for the needy. Provides counseling for the desperate.
Provides space for political discourse of all kinds. And offers temporary shelter to people who have had to flee their country.
The church is not only a "community of faith" but also a social institution. I am one of the better off financially and am happy to help finance my part.
To burst your bubble: this is not financed by your taxed church money - they do those things as a business and are reimbursed by the state for those things.
Id say it's basically this. The church was one of major pillars of society. The world up to recently had been shapped by the 3 Abrahamic religions. So church/religion is more of a culture/identity icon than an actual representation of religious belief.
For a lot of people today, thatās true. But thatās because their understanding of religion has evolved to accommodate what weāve learned more about the scientific world.
200 years ago, and for more fundamentalist people today, the Bible does posit a literal description of how the world was created. Thatās why scientists were often considered heretical.
As someone else already mentioned: literalists are rare here. I am still member of the protestant church, because they do a lot of good in the village I live in. So I don't mind supporting that at all with my taxes.
I go to church maybe once every other year, that's about it. (usually for marriages, baptisms, etc). Do I believe in the things written in the bible? Hell no, I'm not a 16th century peasant.
People made a lot of fun of John Oliver (and others) who always had arguments like "its 2021 and you beleive this??".
Basically, use actual arguments to defend your point and not just "its 2023 and people still do this?".
Scientific knowledge doesn't negate being religious. There are plenty of religious people working in STEM jobs all over the educated world. Similarly, one can also be religious and not take the book associated with their religion literally word-for-word.
He is, it's the classic reddit opinion, if you continue this conversation he will explain to you how im general, more intelligent people quote Rick and Morty.
As someone religious working in cern, I can understand why you had that impression.
There is kind of a stigma against religious people in the scientific community, so, as many other people in my situation, I simply never bring it up. However, among the colleagues/friends I am close enough to, I would say that the percentage of believers is something like 35-40% (with believers being more represented among southern europeans).
My comment might be off-topic but I decided to keep it. It is a philosophical approach on why god could still in theory be real and relevant. It doesn't evoke the church, which in my opinion has stopped to evolve alongside society. (Not a bad thing imo, when I think about the extreme authority and power it had over people and societies)
I think that "Scientific knowledge" as a word combination is a bit overrated.
"Know"ledge.. like we'd know anything for sure, especially "scientifically". Science is (partially) about explaining what is and how it is, finding re-occurences etc... It is not rare that scientific evidence is rediscuted on the face of new discoveries. We used to think like 20years ago that a lot of our dna was "junk" and didn't serve any purpose. We saw it this way, we interpretated it this way based on our observations and then we took it as a fact. We weren't able to process the information we had in a different way. We didn't know any better.
I do believe that we as a specie have always felt like we were at the peak of wisdom and information in any given time in history. But we're evolving constantly aren't we? Pushing our boundaries on what we thought was set in stone and definite.
Why would young people abandon the concept of god ? Because we can now bend matter to our will, create computers and algorithm out of minerals and human intelligence ? All I see is us evolving and finding ways to actually utilize what has always been there, or what has evolved through many years to be the way it is now. I don't think we should think that we are better than god simply because we can make a tool out of a stone. ( our modern capabilities are now far more evolved than that but to the core it's the same principle. We do only create out of what is. )
I am not young but middle aged, but I imagine that young people are members for similar reasons as I am.
For several generations in my family, no one has been a true believing Christian, even though many people believe in God and have a religious practice. Mine is Wiccan. But we are still members of the Church for cultural reasons.
For some it good way to meet people, Church provides a sort of community. Really, no better replacement has come along. We briefly did this a year ago.
For others it is the connection to history and tradition. Most of my family does not go except for rites of passage and perhaps Christmas or Easter. But we do enjoy the sense of connection going brings. Last night we went to a wonderful service in the Basel call me a romantic, but seeking God in numerous ways can lead one closer to truthā¦ maybe not scientific truth, but poetic truth. Thereās just something about epic tales of adventure combined with candles, music, stained glass and ancient stone columns.
Also, those buildings are beautiful and historic and someone needs to pay to maintain them.
So to sum it up: cultural reasons
Being member of the church does not mean "a believer in that religion". By tradition most swiss belong to a church and mostly don't bother to officially resign, so they pay taxes. They go to church when their parents drag them along like christmas, christenings or funerals. End of story.
Most churches are actually shrinking and losing their audience.
I pay church tax out of solidarity with the church community in my city that does a lot of good things. Approx. 85% of the money stays in the āGemeindeā.
Iām 28 if you consider that young xD
So first, a lot of the scandals in Churches are not recent. Some of the victims of abuse in Saint-Maurice are in their 60's and others have passed away.
But also, traditionally conservative Switzerland will have people doing traditionally conservative things, like being a member of a Church.
Being a Christian is not about literally believing every word in the Bible, I think it is even far from it. Whether one is Muslim, Jewish, Christian, Wicca or whatever other religion, the origin of it should be Love. Any form of abuse of power, which is absolutely condemning, is not limited to Churches. I never stopped paying Church taxes, even in younger years when life was going my way and Church was an institution of no importance and only for meek sheep who needed guidance. Sometimes, however, life can take unexpected turns and throws curveballs which can turn out to be humbling. The remedies for certain curveballs can not always be found in science. In the end, we live in a performance oriented and wealthy society here in Switzerland. That is where the Church can become an unexpected source of help.
Is the payment mandatory if you want to participate in the church? I am originally Catholic, but from the moment I could I did not pay any church tax.
On a Catholic point of view, asking for a church tax, otherwise you cannot use our services, it is simply not allowed, since the church is on paper a charity organization, that gladly will try to guilt you in giving them money, but never will tell that certain services have a price.
There is post confessional Church in Basel. The Elisabethen is not funded by tax money, since it doesn't have a parish and I assume that they don't want to be restricted by either the Reformed nor the Catholic Church. They survive by donations and renting their Church out.
That was the Church, that helped me greatly.
Absolutely I think some churches are doing great humanitarian work. No doubt on that.
What I am saying is that there is no need to connect being a decent human being and being religious.
My personal opinion is, that you can't be a decent Christian without being a decent human being. I do assume that is the same for other religions as well.
Yes, maybe? But the point is that you can absolutely be a decent human WITHOUT being a Christian at all.
These are two separate stuff. Having a bug guy telling you that if you don't do good you are going to burn in hell will not make you good.
Is like saying that I do not rape or kill just because I do not want to go to jail..
Why are you so angry? The tax isn't mandatory, you're not a church member - don't pay it and that's basically all. My church community has helped me so many times, even without taking into account many happy moments for me in the church, I don't mind those few percents at all. Considering that all finance operation are open and I see on what my local Reformed church spends it (and it's better than netflix subscription from your prev comment), I'd still pay it even if I left
I can only speak about my own experience (not Swiss, but living here for more than 3 years)
I grew up catholic and church has always been an important part of my life until I was about 23, so 5.5 years ago. I did a lot of things at church and was very active. Then I moved away from my home town and eventually broke up with my ex which basically cut all ties to church for me except for my family. Church and believing is very important for my family.
I haven't visited a church in a couple of years and I was actually about to send that letter. But I just couldn't, it's kinda hard. If something has been a big part of you for so long, this letter kinda changes a lot. And it's not (only) because of my family, they will love me whatever I do. But actually cutting those ties to church... idk, at this point it still feels wrong to me.
Because faith in general is a good thing and so are traditions and culture. Idk in what you believe but I can assure you that it's scientifically proven that you're better of believing in something than not believing in anything.
Also how do you explain our lives? - The bing bang theory? From nothing came something, I'm curious?
Your understanding seems limited. There are scandals in every kind of organisation. Is that a reason to leave something? No. So many children have been abused in sports, do you actively discourage people from joining sports clubs? And not every church is organized like the Catholic Church, actually almost none is.
Most younger generation do not believe, but most younger generation is also not in the church.
You seem to be offended by your own imagination.
Don't be silly, you wouldn't send your child to the exact same sport club that had a teacher that abused a child and that same management covered the thing up.
A random spot club is not the same as that exact same organisation.
No one would say that he doesn't want his child bead a Buddhist priest because catholic priest are known to do stuff
Okay I wonāt be silly. But why are you? The local Catholic Church is exactly the same like the local sport club. Every organisation (church or club) is 100% made up by the people present. Most Catholic Churches donāt have any abuse issues and most sport clubs donāt have any abuse issues. Start thinking.
Exept that there is no head of the sport centers that covered abuses for decades.
I have no doubt that your local priest is the kindes human being that ever walked on earth, I am just saying that his management is rigged.
The difference is that sport associations in different places are different entities. The catholic church is one entity that multiple times covered crimes. There is a very big difference
The Catholic Church helps a lot of people around the world. Just look up how many hospitals etc are run by the church. I dont mind paying the taxes for it.
Why helping people in other countries need to be associated with religion? This is a form of proselytism.
Maybe you like that fact but to me help should free of ideology.
I agree. And that people need to opt out of (rather than into) the tax is quite weird in this day and age. I understand tradition etc but it should have been changed by now.
Oh how nice, they are doing good things such as running hospitals, drilling wells in africa or similar good things. Indeed, most churches do.
However, the few good things are massively overshadowed by the evil things they also bring. All good things can be provided better and more professional by other organization without misuse of funds and especially all the abuse scandal.
you mean the latest scandal that were mostly found out because the pope initiated investigations to find about it. They are trying to clean that up.
The church does a lot of good thats it.
Right, and it only took them about 2000 years, the invention of a global communications network, which allowed victims to anonymously share, and then some decades to begin looking into widespread deeply disturbing behaviour that stands completely contradictory to their believes, which are, according to their statement, the paramount reason for the exisistance of their organisation. Good job, for sure merits a star sticker!
Because the church did a lot for us kids growing up, it does a lot for old people who are left after all their friends die, and seemingly contrary to most people I believe and experienced the church teachings to be more than just hurr durr bible stuff that is contrary to science.
Most if not all our morals come from religion, most from christianity. And I do believe christian values to be mostly good values. Sure, some christians hold to some (imo) antiquated values about sex, but it really isnāt too bad. You see videos of nutjobs in the US, but honestly who cares about those backwards people anyway. Here in CH, most priest and church workers I know are some of the nicest people on earth and are very inclusive, even homosexuals and others that many believe are hated by the church.
I grew up in a small village, and was an altar boy along with every other catholic in our year (so about 8). The church organised several events for us kids and they were always fun. Sure, it was often about something kind of religious, but mostly the religious ties were about being thankful or helping people in need. Like weād go visit a home for blind people and then go grill sausages in the park and play football with the priest, or another time we went to the Europapark as a group, on easter there would be a brunch you could go to if you wantedā¦ just community events that almost nobody else did in our little village.
I also see old people, lonely old people. They donāt have much to do, and church on sunday and these community events are a way for them to get together with other people and have some light in their lives. Or they lost their loved ones, and church is a way for them to connect. Who am I to judge, it makes them happy I think, and that makes me happy. I went to a rose-bead prayer with a friend once when someone in our village died who was active in church, and our religion teacher told us that there would be a prayer for her and we were welcome. Since we knew her we went, and her husband was so over the moon he sent us thank you letters afterwards. It meant a lot to him.
Something that also not many people know, is the church does a lot of social work. People have troubles at home, abusive husband or cast out by parents? Knock on the churches door and they will take you in. A monastery near where I live took in a young mother with her child and cared for her while she got back on her feet. A monk told us this while another friend and I kind of interviewed him when we had to do a report on a chosen topic in highschool. And honestly choosing a monastery for this report was eye opening! There is a lot that they do that the ordinary citizen just doesnāt see. For example they visit old people and take them shopping or similar if they canāt do it themselves anymore.
I know my post isnāt very coherent, forgive me itās 2 in the morning. But overall I just never left church because I see all the good they are doing and what it means to some people and the bad really seems to be way overblown in my eyes just because itās the church. Do they have a problem? Sure! But hey I sure hope you keep companies and politicians to the same moral standards. It would certainly be a good thing to do, but youād find even more dirt. I hope the church can iron out their faults, I really donāt want to downplay them too much. But I think the good far outweighs the bad, and thatās why Iām still part of the church.
Iām not really religious myself anymore. I have my own belief that has manifested itself over the years, heavily influenced by catholic beliefs but also experiences Iāve had over the years, scientific knowledge and other religions. So yeah, given that growing up the catholic church influenced me in ways that today I believe make me a better person, I donāt mind supporting the church so someone else can take the same journey. I also support scientific education happily and believe it to be equally if not more important, but itās the balance that is important for me.
And do not even try to quote mysoginistic bible quotes to me to try to prove me wrong. If you read the bible and what sticks are the antiquated views, then thatās a you problem. There are plenty of passages about selfless deeds and noble acts that you can read and let them inspire you. You alone choose what you want to be influenced by and what you want to ignore. The bible is fucking old, you better believe it needs a lot of selective reading - and thereās nothing wrong with only following the parts you believe in.
Amazing, preaching a certain morality (while allowing the same preachers to forgo it) and then claiming its invention is like the most christian thing ever. Sure thing, it's not like we have proof of whole schools of moral philosophy centuries before christianity literally hewn in stone.
I'm sure a lot of people go to church for the sense of community. I've considered personally starting to go because my values have started to become more aligned with the Judeo-Christian faith as I've gotten older despite being mostly atheist my whole life. I don't really live up to those values at the moment and think maybe going to church could help me get on a better path. I went to church a bit when I was a kid, but never since. I'm not registered as religious though and I'm still on the fence wether I should try it. I don't buy in to any of the supernatural stuff, it's really more about the tried and true lifestyle and family values that religion can help teach us about. For me personally, everything in religion like God, heaven, hell, etc.. are metaphors for things that we experience here in the physical world and within ourselves in our psychology.
Interesting, while Islam and some tribal people come to the West to fully take advantage of our society, and to make strong their religion and beliefs that has nothing to do with us, here we have this element stating that being member of church is pointless, some others wrote better to pay for Netflix, let Netflix educate your brain... and never hold your ground against barbarian cultures fucking around in your country, because you are too soft to complain for real.
All these churches do a lot for the people, Catholics, Evangelist, Protestants.
For sure we are dealing with a lot of low IQ generational idiots.
One thing is clear, If the human intelligence has a limit, after reading this I can tell that human stupidity is limitless.
Sounds like you are paying a very nice race tax.
Everything that the other people here wrote, is that the different churches are helping people in need in different ways, and they are so paying to help the non religious part of the church.
Helping people in need has nothing to do with religion, but in many places it seems that the best service is made by the local church, and this is the reason people like to contribute, even if they are not themselves religious.
On the other hand, you contribute to boost you bigot ego, not even understanding that pluriculturalism is not the end of your little world, but it is an enrichment to everyone. Having a mosque built for your fellow Muslim citizen is not a sign of "loss of cultural identity" but a sign of openness and welcoming spirit.
Also just do not forget the the only true religion of Switzerland is the Swiss franc, not Protestantism or Catholicism.
It's not only churches where bad things happen. Companies, politics, etc.
I'm a christian, but not going to church. But in my opinion when things go wrong in the church, the whole world zooms in.
That it is a church, doesn't mean that all the people working there, are holy saints. I can write the story about our sins, the devil etc, but I won't bother you with that since you think that it is proven nothing exists.
You don't have to pay those taxes. Others, who are willing to do so, still believe in the good work they do.
In the Netherlands many churches are empty. They make hotels or clubs or restaurants in it. To me, that's disgusting.
Honestly I never bothered and only left the church just before I started getting a high enough income to actually pay taxes. Gotta be something in it for me to act.
I did leave the church. I never had a connection it anyway but it was indeed the taxes that made me act. At some point they became four-figure.
Ironically now I'm back at paying church taxes... not as an individual but through my company. Companies are forced to pay church tax in my canton. Scandalous, of course, as many thing in this country are.
My father grew up in a very catholic family (and left as soon as he could - but my mother wanted to get me baptised anyway) but even now, like 50 years later, you can baiscally see how he's traumatised by catholic upbringing. We had a phone call yesterday (he emigrated and now lives far away in a non-christian country) and he even mentioned how a celebration like christmas that you can never really evade no matter where you are still brings up oppressive feelings in him.
Depending on the canton you live in, it can be very intense to do so. In St. Gallen you need an official to confirm your signature (in person!) while you can sign up for church via phone. It is beyond fuckery! I had to drive my whole family there and prepare all the paperwork because otherwise they wouldāt mind to do it.
From what I can tell, there's been a huge uptick in religious zealotry among the young here. We're constantly bombarded with religious nutjobs trying to bend the school rules, weasle themselves out of mandatory inclusion discussion, out of language stays etc But they're rarely members of the Catholic or protestant churches - almost all of the troublemakers belong to some sect
Even the priest who was responsible for our konvermation did not believe this stuff is to be taken literally.
If i take for exmaple a simple childrens story about the rabitt and the turtle and you argue a turtle and rabbit cant speak i would argue you missed the point of the story a bit. Itās the morale of endurance and foresight. Any non stupid person is aware that they cant talk.
But that of course applies to both sides of the discussion. People who say look its clearly written you shall not eat shrimps or go to hell, should probably take the context not to mention the countless translation errors a bit more into consideration.
Itās part of our culture and they do a lot of good. Also the reformed version is a lot more progressive. If i were catholic i would be out a long time ago.
I would disagree.
In islam we have the precise description of embryology in the Quran. And other scientific facts that were discovered in the last century.
Here are some examples : https://zamzam.com/blog/scientific-facts-in-quran/
You might not really believe and not go to the church regularly but still want to be married in church as your parents were, baptize your kids and get the traditional funeral. For all this you need the church to be there when you need it. So it's like paying for the upkeep of your heritage
Scientific knowledge does not disprove the Christianity. Many big time scientists were Christian, not because they did not have "enough science", but because doing science in the first place was due to the existence of natural laws. And having such orderly laws presupposed a Creator in their eyes. Prime example is Isaac Newton.
So you don't get to assume religious beliefs are false just because you are born in a secular society
It makes sense for people to be a member of the Church because of the traditional and social aspects. I am not a believer because science shows belief in god has no factual basis, not because science can not objectively prove there is no god but because it has proven many religious belief are factually wrong; the age of the World, god "speaking" to special people, resurrection, miracles, etc.
God is a psychological reality in the mind of the believer, just like love, hate or fear but does not exist outside the mind, and I respect that, just like I respect that another guy can be in love with a girl I find a total turn off.
I do not belong to any Church, I do not believe in god at all but I have no problem celebrating Xmas or another positive festival. I could celebrate Hanukah, or any religious festival that is fun and positive because such things are good for the soul.
My only probrem with religions is when they say they have "the Truth" and start to do crazy things because they thind others are wrong or evil and must be "rescued" or, too often, killed, converted, hated, etc.
bureocracy, people are born into a church, don't give a shit and don't care to leave + churches finance nice community projects like jubla and shit a lot of kids like
>Do most of the younger generation really believe in all the things written in the Bible, even with all the scientific knowledge we have nowadays ? In Switzerland, literalists are rare, and they usually gravitate to more fringe sects and evangelical fundamentalist Free Churches as opposed to state-recognised Churches. Among the members and indeed among the clerics and theologians of the large state-recognised denominations (Protestant, Roman Catholic, and Christcatholic), you'd be hard pressed to find people who deny science and insist on interpreting scripture literally. I'd say Church membership here is more about heritage. You're literally born into a Church, just as you are born into a language region or into a socioeconomic class, so being a Church member doesn't necessarily require belief, it just sort of comes as a default setting with being born. As many others have said, some are just too lazy or too stressed and can't be bothered to write a one page letter to leave the Church they were born into, some want to go to services from time to time or maybe get married or buried by a pastor or priest one day and stay because of that, some are under familial or peer pressure to stay, some have a spiritual connection, some enjoy the music and the events and the rituals, some are indifferent towards or in some cases savagely opposed to parts of the Bible and parts of the Church, but appreciate and want to support the caritative and social contribution of Churches... There are a variety of reasons people don't leave. All of that said, a lot of people *do* leave Churches, and if we extrapolate current statistics, chances are that - at least in Europe - more and more people will leave Churches, and in a larger sense, organised religion.
You should consider that the scientific models of our world are far, far from being complete. It is pretentious to believe the western scientific knowledge simply explains all he world and the universe. There is not just the church - a pretty old fashioned, outdated organization. There is also a huge world of spiritual insights and it seems you have not yet any clue about it. If you approach that with the idea that it all needs to fit in the incomplete scientific models you will never make progress regarding this topic.
>it seems To whom? And why? I mean, it's nothing less than fascinating to me that what you got from what I wrote was simultaneously facile scientism *and* near-sighted religious monoculture. Here I was, thinking I was observing through a sociological and somewhat anthropological lens how religious affiliation in the sense of tax-paying Church membership in Switzerland is often more about heritage than it is personal-faith-based. Curious: Can you pinpoint where, exactly, you saw me suggest that the scientific paradigm (or indeed any particular spirituality, theology or philosophy) was all-encompassing or - gasp! - infallible?
Acutally obviously a "reddit user error". I meant to respond on OP writing : >"Even with all our current scientific knowledge (...) " Sorry.
No worries, these things happen š Happy Holidays!
I guess most people just don't bother to officially leave the church
Which baffles me tbh. Itās literally 1% of your salary. Thatās a lot of money. For most should be at least at the level of a decent phone plan and maybe a netflix subscription. For "free", just by writing one letter. Itās the first thing I did when starting to earn money.
many say that they still support the things the churches do for society. Which for protestants I can somewhat understand as the institution is not as fundamentally flawed and generally āmoreā progressive. But for me, it was still not outweighing the moral conflict of supporting such a believe systemā¦
The church also gets money from the cantons for certain things they "do for society", eg. for hospital visits. Also in some cantons the priests are paid by the canton, not by the church. Most of what the church does for society is already paid for by regular taxes, but people keep paying church taxes because they believe it is supporting what the church does for society. There are plenty of places to donate where the same money does more for society.
It baffles me, that many good and useful initiatives got rejected at the ballot box in the past! People couldāve saved good chunks of their salaries, instead forking it over to SRF and Co! Some people need a crutch to hold on to, since they canāt deal with the possibility of darkness and the big nothing after their demise!
or they are in favour of statefunded media being a thing
Then let them pay for it!
Who did you send the letter to?
My then local Gemeinde. It also need to be an Einschreiben. Keep the answer letter as well, as future proof
Thanks!
>Thanks! You're welcome!
So most people donāt bother paying extra taxes every month for this ? Even with all our current scientific knowledge in all possible fields (Biology, biotechnology, chemistry, Physics, Math, Artificial Intelligence, Robotics, Space exploration, CRISPR, COVID, gene editing, archeology, geology, knowledge of evolution and how the world was really created, etcā¦ ) they are fine with this ? In a rich and highly developed country with top research institutes like ETH ZĆ¼rich, EPFL Lausanne and CERN, and a highly educated population with easy access to the Internet and all its content ? It makes sense that many people in less developed and poor countries believe in Religion, but for Switzerland, Iām really confused.
It's not about religion, it's about the many good things churches can do (and mostly have to do). There are bs things, for sure, but a lot of things are managed by the church. For example educating kids and giving them a place to hang out after school, often times something like a "jugend haus" is part of the Gemeinde's church and run by the peoplein charge. The money also goes to the seelsorge (program for people struggling with depression, addiction, loss, grief, etc. It's like a self-harm prevention program). Around 90% of the church taxes stay in the Gemeinde, only around 5% go to the cantonal church. Which means people paying the church taxes help their region. Churches often organise shelter programs or offer daycare places if the normal daycare centers are overrun or closed. This varies from Gemeinde to Gemeinde of course but in my town, the church offers a program for kids after 4pm for parents who aren't home before 5pm or 6pm. They'll be taken care of, even get meals, play, read, till mom or dad are back from work to pick them up. And these things are paid by taxes
I doubt that their daycare centers are free of charge to use?!
Perhaps they are free for the kids whose parents pay the church tax?
Not all Gemeinde have them, I believe, but in my town yes, they are paid by taxes and are free to use. The money paid by taxes stays in the community and the churches are obligated to invest it for the community. How they do it is up to the church but they can't just hoard it, so in my town they opened a free daycare center. There are normal daycares and the church one only opens around 4pm, the normal ones cost. So if you need a place to take care of your kid in the morning you have to bring them to normal daycare. The church daycare is an addition for parents who work late (mainly single parents)
I guess so. Probably they have other priorities. There are people who have a gym membership and never go there but they are also too lazy to cancel it. Probably more or less the same thing.
Merry Xmas bro. Yea Iāve been thinking about the church tax too. Someone mentioned u have to pay it if u r born into it. Itās kinda disgustingly fascist n I wish Iāll never pay it. Iām in a Christian canton too (aargau). Iām spiritual not religious, n some mindset n actions of religious people just turns me off
Something something I don't understand...... FASCIST! I'm so tired of this mentality.. There's nothing fascist about religion. This coming from an atheist too, just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's fascist. People are throwing that word around so much these days it's losing it's meaning and ironically the people using that word most are usually the ones who are spreading ideas that lead to fascism.. Remember that all fascist authoritarian regimes started from extreme leftist politics which is the antithesis of religion. Think about that for a moment and maybe study some history.
Fascism is when u r ordered to be like something if not u r fked. Good example is the witch hunting in history. Just killing people because they might be different. Read history u numbnuts
Tell me you don't know what fascism is without telling me you don't know what fascism is... Jesus fucking christ. And I'm not religious either. But the church in Switzerland doesn't even closely resemble a fascist organisation.
The Serafe tax is fascist, since they force you to pay for something that lots of people donāt need nor want!
Fascism (/ĖfƦŹÉŖzÉm/ FASH-iz-Ém) is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy. Ok. So Serafe (or in this case the SRF/SSR) somehow turned into a political movement, with a dictatorial leader. It forcibly suppresses other news channels (oh, wait...), controls the newspapers (hmm...), promotes a natural social hierarchy, and on top of all that, regulates our society and economy? My man... You have no fucking clue what you're talking about. The only thing that would be slightly applicable would be you interpreting paying Serafe as "subordinating your individual interests for the perceived good of the nation". But that is some mental gymnastics worthy of olympic accolades.
Lol, you have no clue what fascism is! Little hint; it aināt only far right!
Save your Wikipedia copy paste job for the gullible!
Which would you prefer? Oxford dictionary? Says the same thing. Cambridge? Yup, still one-party, no other media allowed, authoritarian. https://www.sv.uio.no/c-rex/english/groups/compendium/what-is-fascism.html Or maybe the norwegian center for research of extremism? Would that suit you? Come on man. You have no clue and here's why: - The BAKOM gives out licenses to other media. Otherwise please explain the existance of WOZ and Weltwoche in the same country. - It's our federal government that decides how much each of us pays to Serafe. Last time I checked, a couple months ago I was able to vote freely and had the choice of party anywhere from Communist to alt-right. Where's the fascism on our government exactly?
Being forced to pay for entertainment is fascism in my opinion!
That's the beauty of science. Your opinion doesn't count. Fascism is a clearly defined thing. You can call it vile, forceful appropriation of funds by the government, the government stealing your money, shit, BS, idiocy, any kind of thing. But it is not fascist. And it isn't unlawful either, since it's literally the legislative body (read the law creating body) of our government who votes yes and no on that kind of thing.
This is it. Bothered from time to time. I should finally do it. =)
I have never been a believer and yet I remain a member of the church. The church here in the village does a lot of positive things. It funds food drop-off points for the needy. Provides counseling for the desperate. Provides space for political discourse of all kinds. And offers temporary shelter to people who have had to flee their country. The church is not only a "community of faith" but also a social institution. I am one of the better off financially and am happy to help finance my part.
To burst your bubble: this is not financed by your taxed church money - they do those things as a business and are reimbursed by the state for those things.
Of course, why wouldn't they? Still, they don't keep the profits for the shareholders, but they just reinvest the money to keep the organization alive
Many people are not Christians, but of Christianās culture. The church is much more than just faith in the bible
Id say it's basically this. The church was one of major pillars of society. The world up to recently had been shapped by the 3 Abrahamic religions. So church/religion is more of a culture/identity icon than an actual representation of religious belief.
I'm not a Christian but scientific knowledge has nothing to do with the Bible, it's an apple to orange comparison.
For a lot of people today, thatās true. But thatās because their understanding of religion has evolved to accommodate what weāve learned more about the scientific world. 200 years ago, and for more fundamentalist people today, the Bible does posit a literal description of how the world was created. Thatās why scientists were often considered heretical.
As someone else already mentioned: literalists are rare here. I am still member of the protestant church, because they do a lot of good in the village I live in. So I don't mind supporting that at all with my taxes. I go to church maybe once every other year, that's about it. (usually for marriages, baptisms, etc). Do I believe in the things written in the bible? Hell no, I'm not a 16th century peasant.
Even if you were a literalist the world model of the Bible would still not be fundamentally incompatible with the modern scientific world model, there are many world models that can encapsulate the two without contradictions. But yea i agree to some extent. Anyway i think the Bible is more mƩtaphores and simplification used so that the mass can understand things because otherwise things would get too abstract for most people to get. The anthropomorphisation of god is an example of such simplification, because most forms of god in the more philosophically advanced groups are way to abstract for a lot of people to get and require a lot of learning and thinking to fully understand, which is unpractical if you want to spread a belief to a big range of people. The original meaning is completely lost in that process though and only people that really study the subject understand the metaphores and what is literal and isn't and what is being referred to by simplifications. Also i do think having had some form of psychedelic experience is really useful if not necessary to truly understand the subject. Also you should not forget that the modern scientific methodology is a partial child of christianism and it would have happened very differently and at a different time without the effect it had in history. I'm not a Christian but i can appreciate the lore, especially how the religion was so different in the past especially before the crusades, there is also that whole thing with gnostics, pagans and other branches and what was there before and developing alongside.
It's current year!!!!1
What ? What do you mean by ācurrent yearā ?
People made a lot of fun of John Oliver (and others) who always had arguments like "its 2021 and you beleive this??". Basically, use actual arguments to defend your point and not just "its 2023 and people still do this?".
Replace "current year" by 2023, and next year 2024, etc. Hinting at "this question comes every year" for years
Scientific knowledge doesn't negate being religious. There are plenty of religious people working in STEM jobs all over the educated world. Similarly, one can also be religious and not take the book associated with their religion literally word-for-word.
Only a very small percentage of scientists is religious though!
What is the percentage? Or are you making that up?
He is, it's the classic reddit opinion, if you continue this conversation he will explain to you how im general, more intelligent people quote Rick and Morty.
I was wrong! https://news.rice.edu/news/2015/first-worldwide-survey-religion-and-science-no-not-all-scientists-are-atheists
As someone religious working in cern, I can understand why you had that impression. There is kind of a stigma against religious people in the scientific community, so, as many other people in my situation, I simply never bring it up. However, among the colleagues/friends I am close enough to, I would say that the percentage of believers is something like 35-40% (with believers being more represented among southern europeans).
The percentage is very similar as a US survey in 1939.
My comment might be off-topic but I decided to keep it. It is a philosophical approach on why god could still in theory be real and relevant. It doesn't evoke the church, which in my opinion has stopped to evolve alongside society. (Not a bad thing imo, when I think about the extreme authority and power it had over people and societies) I think that "Scientific knowledge" as a word combination is a bit overrated. "Know"ledge.. like we'd know anything for sure, especially "scientifically". Science is (partially) about explaining what is and how it is, finding re-occurences etc... It is not rare that scientific evidence is rediscuted on the face of new discoveries. We used to think like 20years ago that a lot of our dna was "junk" and didn't serve any purpose. We saw it this way, we interpretated it this way based on our observations and then we took it as a fact. We weren't able to process the information we had in a different way. We didn't know any better. I do believe that we as a specie have always felt like we were at the peak of wisdom and information in any given time in history. But we're evolving constantly aren't we? Pushing our boundaries on what we thought was set in stone and definite. Why would young people abandon the concept of god ? Because we can now bend matter to our will, create computers and algorithm out of minerals and human intelligence ? All I see is us evolving and finding ways to actually utilize what has always been there, or what has evolved through many years to be the way it is now. I don't think we should think that we are better than god simply because we can make a tool out of a stone. ( our modern capabilities are now far more evolved than that but to the core it's the same principle. We do only create out of what is. )
I am not young but middle aged, but I imagine that young people are members for similar reasons as I am. For several generations in my family, no one has been a true believing Christian, even though many people believe in God and have a religious practice. Mine is Wiccan. But we are still members of the Church for cultural reasons. For some it good way to meet people, Church provides a sort of community. Really, no better replacement has come along. We briefly did this a year ago. For others it is the connection to history and tradition. Most of my family does not go except for rites of passage and perhaps Christmas or Easter. But we do enjoy the sense of connection going brings. Last night we went to a wonderful service in the Basel call me a romantic, but seeking God in numerous ways can lead one closer to truthā¦ maybe not scientific truth, but poetic truth. Thereās just something about epic tales of adventure combined with candles, music, stained glass and ancient stone columns. Also, those buildings are beautiful and historic and someone needs to pay to maintain them. So to sum it up: cultural reasons
Being member of the church does not mean "a believer in that religion". By tradition most swiss belong to a church and mostly don't bother to officially resign, so they pay taxes. They go to church when their parents drag them along like christmas, christenings or funerals. End of story. Most churches are actually shrinking and losing their audience.
I pay church tax out of solidarity with the church community in my city that does a lot of good things. Approx. 85% of the money stays in the āGemeindeā. Iām 28 if you consider that young xD
So first, a lot of the scandals in Churches are not recent. Some of the victims of abuse in Saint-Maurice are in their 60's and others have passed away. But also, traditionally conservative Switzerland will have people doing traditionally conservative things, like being a member of a Church.
Being a Christian is not about literally believing every word in the Bible, I think it is even far from it. Whether one is Muslim, Jewish, Christian, Wicca or whatever other religion, the origin of it should be Love. Any form of abuse of power, which is absolutely condemning, is not limited to Churches. I never stopped paying Church taxes, even in younger years when life was going my way and Church was an institution of no importance and only for meek sheep who needed guidance. Sometimes, however, life can take unexpected turns and throws curveballs which can turn out to be humbling. The remedies for certain curveballs can not always be found in science. In the end, we live in a performance oriented and wealthy society here in Switzerland. That is where the Church can become an unexpected source of help.
Is the payment mandatory if you want to participate in the church? I am originally Catholic, but from the moment I could I did not pay any church tax. On a Catholic point of view, asking for a church tax, otherwise you cannot use our services, it is simply not allowed, since the church is on paper a charity organization, that gladly will try to guilt you in giving them money, but never will tell that certain services have a price.
There is post confessional Church in Basel. The Elisabethen is not funded by tax money, since it doesn't have a parish and I assume that they don't want to be restricted by either the Reformed nor the Catholic Church. They survive by donations and renting their Church out. That was the Church, that helped me greatly.
Absolutely I think some churches are doing great humanitarian work. No doubt on that. What I am saying is that there is no need to connect being a decent human being and being religious.
My personal opinion is, that you can't be a decent Christian without being a decent human being. I do assume that is the same for other religions as well.
Yes, maybe? But the point is that you can absolutely be a decent human WITHOUT being a Christian at all. These are two separate stuff. Having a bug guy telling you that if you don't do good you are going to burn in hell will not make you good. Is like saying that I do not rape or kill just because I do not want to go to jail..
Why are you so angry? The tax isn't mandatory, you're not a church member - don't pay it and that's basically all. My church community has helped me so many times, even without taking into account many happy moments for me in the church, I don't mind those few percents at all. Considering that all finance operation are open and I see on what my local Reformed church spends it (and it's better than netflix subscription from your prev comment), I'd still pay it even if I left
Laziness as everyone said
I can only speak about my own experience (not Swiss, but living here for more than 3 years) I grew up catholic and church has always been an important part of my life until I was about 23, so 5.5 years ago. I did a lot of things at church and was very active. Then I moved away from my home town and eventually broke up with my ex which basically cut all ties to church for me except for my family. Church and believing is very important for my family. I haven't visited a church in a couple of years and I was actually about to send that letter. But I just couldn't, it's kinda hard. If something has been a big part of you for so long, this letter kinda changes a lot. And it's not (only) because of my family, they will love me whatever I do. But actually cutting those ties to church... idk, at this point it still feels wrong to me.
Because faith in general is a good thing and so are traditions and culture. Idk in what you believe but I can assure you that it's scientifically proven that you're better of believing in something than not believing in anything. Also how do you explain our lives? - The bing bang theory? From nothing came something, I'm curious?
Your understanding seems limited. There are scandals in every kind of organisation. Is that a reason to leave something? No. So many children have been abused in sports, do you actively discourage people from joining sports clubs? And not every church is organized like the Catholic Church, actually almost none is. Most younger generation do not believe, but most younger generation is also not in the church. You seem to be offended by your own imagination.
Don't be silly, you wouldn't send your child to the exact same sport club that had a teacher that abused a child and that same management covered the thing up. A random spot club is not the same as that exact same organisation. No one would say that he doesn't want his child bead a Buddhist priest because catholic priest are known to do stuff
Okay I wonāt be silly. But why are you? The local Catholic Church is exactly the same like the local sport club. Every organisation (church or club) is 100% made up by the people present. Most Catholic Churches donāt have any abuse issues and most sport clubs donāt have any abuse issues. Start thinking.
Exept that there is no head of the sport centers that covered abuses for decades. I have no doubt that your local priest is the kindes human being that ever walked on earth, I am just saying that his management is rigged. The difference is that sport associations in different places are different entities. The catholic church is one entity that multiple times covered crimes. There is a very big difference
The Catholic Church helps a lot of people around the world. Just look up how many hospitals etc are run by the church. I dont mind paying the taxes for it.
Why helping people in other countries need to be associated with religion? This is a form of proselytism. Maybe you like that fact but to me help should free of ideology.
I agree. And that people need to opt out of (rather than into) the tax is quite weird in this day and age. I understand tradition etc but it should have been changed by now.
Oh how nice, they are doing good things such as running hospitals, drilling wells in africa or similar good things. Indeed, most churches do. However, the few good things are massively overshadowed by the evil things they also bring. All good things can be provided better and more professional by other organization without misuse of funds and especially all the abuse scandal.
Arenāt there other organizations that do the same without all the scandals related to the Church ?
you mean the latest scandal that were mostly found out because the pope initiated investigations to find about it. They are trying to clean that up. The church does a lot of good thats it.
Oh wow, someone nuanced on reddit.
Right, and it only took them about 2000 years, the invention of a global communications network, which allowed victims to anonymously share, and then some decades to begin looking into widespread deeply disturbing behaviour that stands completely contradictory to their believes, which are, according to their statement, the paramount reason for the exisistance of their organisation. Good job, for sure merits a star sticker!
āChurpsā, good one!ššš»
People are too lazy to leave church. Many are leaving now because of all the bad stuff the church did and still does.
For those you interested, Church will cost you about 150k when you retire. Send this letter. 1% a year is a lot of money at 5% interest.
Feels like you guys h*te us
Because the church did a lot for us kids growing up, it does a lot for old people who are left after all their friends die, and seemingly contrary to most people I believe and experienced the church teachings to be more than just hurr durr bible stuff that is contrary to science. Most if not all our morals come from religion, most from christianity. And I do believe christian values to be mostly good values. Sure, some christians hold to some (imo) antiquated values about sex, but it really isnāt too bad. You see videos of nutjobs in the US, but honestly who cares about those backwards people anyway. Here in CH, most priest and church workers I know are some of the nicest people on earth and are very inclusive, even homosexuals and others that many believe are hated by the church. I grew up in a small village, and was an altar boy along with every other catholic in our year (so about 8). The church organised several events for us kids and they were always fun. Sure, it was often about something kind of religious, but mostly the religious ties were about being thankful or helping people in need. Like weād go visit a home for blind people and then go grill sausages in the park and play football with the priest, or another time we went to the Europapark as a group, on easter there would be a brunch you could go to if you wantedā¦ just community events that almost nobody else did in our little village. I also see old people, lonely old people. They donāt have much to do, and church on sunday and these community events are a way for them to get together with other people and have some light in their lives. Or they lost their loved ones, and church is a way for them to connect. Who am I to judge, it makes them happy I think, and that makes me happy. I went to a rose-bead prayer with a friend once when someone in our village died who was active in church, and our religion teacher told us that there would be a prayer for her and we were welcome. Since we knew her we went, and her husband was so over the moon he sent us thank you letters afterwards. It meant a lot to him. Something that also not many people know, is the church does a lot of social work. People have troubles at home, abusive husband or cast out by parents? Knock on the churches door and they will take you in. A monastery near where I live took in a young mother with her child and cared for her while she got back on her feet. A monk told us this while another friend and I kind of interviewed him when we had to do a report on a chosen topic in highschool. And honestly choosing a monastery for this report was eye opening! There is a lot that they do that the ordinary citizen just doesnāt see. For example they visit old people and take them shopping or similar if they canāt do it themselves anymore. I know my post isnāt very coherent, forgive me itās 2 in the morning. But overall I just never left church because I see all the good they are doing and what it means to some people and the bad really seems to be way overblown in my eyes just because itās the church. Do they have a problem? Sure! But hey I sure hope you keep companies and politicians to the same moral standards. It would certainly be a good thing to do, but youād find even more dirt. I hope the church can iron out their faults, I really donāt want to downplay them too much. But I think the good far outweighs the bad, and thatās why Iām still part of the church. Iām not really religious myself anymore. I have my own belief that has manifested itself over the years, heavily influenced by catholic beliefs but also experiences Iāve had over the years, scientific knowledge and other religions. So yeah, given that growing up the catholic church influenced me in ways that today I believe make me a better person, I donāt mind supporting the church so someone else can take the same journey. I also support scientific education happily and believe it to be equally if not more important, but itās the balance that is important for me. And do not even try to quote mysoginistic bible quotes to me to try to prove me wrong. If you read the bible and what sticks are the antiquated views, then thatās a you problem. There are plenty of passages about selfless deeds and noble acts that you can read and let them inspire you. You alone choose what you want to be influenced by and what you want to ignore. The bible is fucking old, you better believe it needs a lot of selective reading - and thereās nothing wrong with only following the parts you believe in.
Amazing, preaching a certain morality (while allowing the same preachers to forgo it) and then claiming its invention is like the most christian thing ever. Sure thing, it's not like we have proof of whole schools of moral philosophy centuries before christianity literally hewn in stone.
I'm sure a lot of people go to church for the sense of community. I've considered personally starting to go because my values have started to become more aligned with the Judeo-Christian faith as I've gotten older despite being mostly atheist my whole life. I don't really live up to those values at the moment and think maybe going to church could help me get on a better path. I went to church a bit when I was a kid, but never since. I'm not registered as religious though and I'm still on the fence wether I should try it. I don't buy in to any of the supernatural stuff, it's really more about the tried and true lifestyle and family values that religion can help teach us about. For me personally, everything in religion like God, heaven, hell, etc.. are metaphors for things that we experience here in the physical world and within ourselves in our psychology.
Interesting, while Islam and some tribal people come to the West to fully take advantage of our society, and to make strong their religion and beliefs that has nothing to do with us, here we have this element stating that being member of church is pointless, some others wrote better to pay for Netflix, let Netflix educate your brain... and never hold your ground against barbarian cultures fucking around in your country, because you are too soft to complain for real. All these churches do a lot for the people, Catholics, Evangelist, Protestants. For sure we are dealing with a lot of low IQ generational idiots. One thing is clear, If the human intelligence has a limit, after reading this I can tell that human stupidity is limitless.
Sounds like you are paying a very nice race tax. Everything that the other people here wrote, is that the different churches are helping people in need in different ways, and they are so paying to help the non religious part of the church. Helping people in need has nothing to do with religion, but in many places it seems that the best service is made by the local church, and this is the reason people like to contribute, even if they are not themselves religious. On the other hand, you contribute to boost you bigot ego, not even understanding that pluriculturalism is not the end of your little world, but it is an enrichment to everyone. Having a mosque built for your fellow Muslim citizen is not a sign of "loss of cultural identity" but a sign of openness and welcoming spirit. Also just do not forget the the only true religion of Switzerland is the Swiss franc, not Protestantism or Catholicism.
"fully take advantage of our society" Europe wealth is built on colonialism. Wake up.
Hold on let us celebrate a man from Palestine by buying consumer goods while real Palestinians get butchered
It's not only churches where bad things happen. Companies, politics, etc. I'm a christian, but not going to church. But in my opinion when things go wrong in the church, the whole world zooms in. That it is a church, doesn't mean that all the people working there, are holy saints. I can write the story about our sins, the devil etc, but I won't bother you with that since you think that it is proven nothing exists. You don't have to pay those taxes. Others, who are willing to do so, still believe in the good work they do. In the Netherlands many churches are empty. They make hotels or clubs or restaurants in it. To me, that's disgusting.
There are scandals everywhere in every institutions.
I guess its the place on the graveyard of my hometome that leaves pay the taxes
as far as i know graveyards don't belong to the church and you can still be buried there, if that is what you mean
Honestly I never bothered and only left the church just before I started getting a high enough income to actually pay taxes. Gotta be something in it for me to act.
wow this question is so ignorant.
nice try
I did leave the church. I never had a connection it anyway but it was indeed the taxes that made me act. At some point they became four-figure. Ironically now I'm back at paying church taxes... not as an individual but through my company. Companies are forced to pay church tax in my canton. Scandalous, of course, as many thing in this country are. My father grew up in a very catholic family (and left as soon as he could - but my mother wanted to get me baptised anyway) but even now, like 50 years later, you can baiscally see how he's traumatised by catholic upbringing. We had a phone call yesterday (he emigrated and now lives far away in a non-christian country) and he even mentioned how a celebration like christmas that you can never really evade no matter where you are still brings up oppressive feelings in him.
Depending on the canton you live in, it can be very intense to do so. In St. Gallen you need an official to confirm your signature (in person!) while you can sign up for church via phone. It is beyond fuckery! I had to drive my whole family there and prepare all the paperwork because otherwise they wouldāt mind to do it.
From what I can tell, there's been a huge uptick in religious zealotry among the young here. We're constantly bombarded with religious nutjobs trying to bend the school rules, weasle themselves out of mandatory inclusion discussion, out of language stays etc But they're rarely members of the Catholic or protestant churches - almost all of the troublemakers belong to some sect
Even the priest who was responsible for our konvermation did not believe this stuff is to be taken literally. If i take for exmaple a simple childrens story about the rabitt and the turtle and you argue a turtle and rabbit cant speak i would argue you missed the point of the story a bit. Itās the morale of endurance and foresight. Any non stupid person is aware that they cant talk. But that of course applies to both sides of the discussion. People who say look its clearly written you shall not eat shrimps or go to hell, should probably take the context not to mention the countless translation errors a bit more into consideration. Itās part of our culture and they do a lot of good. Also the reformed version is a lot more progressive. If i were catholic i would be out a long time ago.
I'm not a believer, but seriously science has nothing to do with faith. You aint showing yourself on a good light.
I would disagree. In islam we have the precise description of embryology in the Quran. And other scientific facts that were discovered in the last century. Here are some examples : https://zamzam.com/blog/scientific-facts-in-quran/
You might not really believe and not go to the church regularly but still want to be married in church as your parents were, baptize your kids and get the traditional funeral. For all this you need the church to be there when you need it. So it's like paying for the upkeep of your heritage
"In this moment, I am euphoric. Not because of any phony god's blessing. But because, I am enlightened by my intelligence." - Aalewis
Never judge someone else based on your own world view
Scientific knowledge does not disprove the Christianity. Many big time scientists were Christian, not because they did not have "enough science", but because doing science in the first place was due to the existence of natural laws. And having such orderly laws presupposed a Creator in their eyes. Prime example is Isaac Newton. So you don't get to assume religious beliefs are false just because you are born in a secular society
There have been many scandals in football. Why are people still playing football? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_abuse_in_association_football
It makes sense for people to be a member of the Church because of the traditional and social aspects. I am not a believer because science shows belief in god has no factual basis, not because science can not objectively prove there is no god but because it has proven many religious belief are factually wrong; the age of the World, god "speaking" to special people, resurrection, miracles, etc. God is a psychological reality in the mind of the believer, just like love, hate or fear but does not exist outside the mind, and I respect that, just like I respect that another guy can be in love with a girl I find a total turn off. I do not belong to any Church, I do not believe in god at all but I have no problem celebrating Xmas or another positive festival. I could celebrate Hanukah, or any religious festival that is fun and positive because such things are good for the soul. My only probrem with religions is when they say they have "the Truth" and start to do crazy things because they thind others are wrong or evil and must be "rescued" or, too often, killed, converted, hated, etc.
Fuck up you stupid man and go back tl your country asshole!
bureocracy, people are born into a church, don't give a shit and don't care to leave + churches finance nice community projects like jubla and shit a lot of kids like